0:00:05 > 0:00:08WINDSCREEN WIPERS SQUEAK
0:00:19 > 0:00:23"Cathedrals - luxury liners laden with souls
0:00:23 > 0:00:26"holding to the east their hulls of stone."
0:00:26 > 0:00:29The 20th-century poet WH Auden's description.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35They define our cities, stud our landscape,
0:00:35 > 0:00:36but what are cathedrals for?
0:00:36 > 0:00:39What purpose do they serve?
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Are they meeting places between Heaven and Earth?
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Timeless containers of sacred space?
0:00:45 > 0:00:49Or empty shells, nothing more than feats of engineering -
0:00:49 > 0:00:52architecture but essentially relics,
0:00:52 > 0:00:55frosty anachronisms in a secular world?
0:00:58 > 0:01:02This film is about Wakefield Cathedral in West Yorkshire.
0:01:02 > 0:01:06When I started filming here in November 2012,
0:01:06 > 0:01:09the cathedral was facing uncertain times.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12A proposed reorganisation of church boundaries was causing
0:01:12 > 0:01:15anxiety about the cathedral's future,
0:01:15 > 0:01:19calling into question the very existence of Wakefield diocese
0:01:19 > 0:01:22And all this just as it moved towards completion of a major
0:01:22 > 0:01:24year-long renovation project,
0:01:24 > 0:01:28remodelling the luxury liner for the 21st century.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32With four months of the project to go,
0:01:32 > 0:01:35the cathedral's medieval nave was being restored,
0:01:35 > 0:01:38whilst a screen split the building in two, allowing the east end
0:01:38 > 0:01:42to remain open for the rhythm of cathedral life to continue.
0:01:47 > 0:01:49We pray
0:01:49 > 0:01:53for the work we can hear going on in our nave,
0:01:53 > 0:01:56for a timely end to the project
0:01:56 > 0:02:00giving thanks for all those who've contributed to Project 2013.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11Look at all this stone that's arrived this morning.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14We've had a delivery from the quarry.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Is this the last lot?
0:02:18 > 0:02:21I don't know. No, I can't imagine it is the last lot.
0:02:26 > 0:02:27Marvellous to see.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32Look at this marvellous...streaking in it.
0:02:33 > 0:02:35We chose the more expensive stone
0:02:35 > 0:02:39because it has a bit of life about it, as you'll see.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42We thought although we don't like paying more than
0:02:42 > 0:02:45we need to in Yorkshire, this would be with the cathedral
0:02:45 > 0:02:49for the next hundred years or so, so it was worth paying a bit more.
0:02:58 > 0:03:02Jonathan, what was it like in here before
0:03:02 > 0:03:04There were two problems with it before.
0:03:04 > 0:03:09The first was it hadn't had a make-over since the 1870s.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13So actually, the infrastructure was shot. Do you mean the heating?
0:03:13 > 0:03:18The electrics, the heating, the sound system, the alarms..
0:03:18 > 0:03:23Everything was on their last.. was on its last legs.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26So we needed to sort that out.
0:03:26 > 0:03:31But also, we had the pews, which George Gilbert Scott put in.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33Lovely pews.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36Not fine, but good quality.
0:03:36 > 0:03:38And they were marvellous
0:03:38 > 0:03:42if you wanted to seat lots of people in rows.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45But they were uncomfortable and they allowed no
0:03:45 > 0:03:50flexibility at all for anything other than sitting people in rows.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53And what we want is a space which we can adapt for worship
0:03:53 > 0:03:57but also adapt for everything else we want to use the space for.
0:03:57 > 0:04:01So how much have you had to raise for all this? It's about ?3 million.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03Total.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07Inevitably, as a clergyman, you have certain
0:04:07 > 0:04:11pangs of guilt about spending that kind of money on a building.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15You know, there are so many other things out there that need money.
0:04:15 > 0:04:18And the Gospel's about looking after the poor,
0:04:18 > 0:04:20as much as about anything else
0:04:21 > 0:04:23You mentioned the Gospels,
0:04:23 > 0:04:27so if Jesus was in Wakefield with ?3 million in his pocket,
0:04:27 > 0:04:30do you think that he would spend it in the same sort of way?
0:04:33 > 0:04:37If he were Dean of Wakefield, I think he might.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49'The Cathedral Church of All Saints sits at the heart of Wakefield
0:04:49 > 0:04:52'There's been a church here since Anglo-Saxon times,
0:04:52 > 0:04:56'but it only became a cathedral 125 years ago.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00'Wakefield's population had grown during the Industrial Revolution and
0:05:00 > 0:05:04'it was felt that it should become the centre of a new diocese,
0:05:04 > 0:05:05'an area supervised by a bishop
0:05:05 > 0:05:08'needing his own spiritual headquarters,
0:05:08 > 0:05:10'his seat, a cathedral.'
0:05:13 > 0:05:17I'm just trying to find images which show the community.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19All this is going on display? Um, yes.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23But I want to do a media display, rather than just taking photographs
0:05:23 > 0:05:26and sticking them up on a board like we have done in the past.
0:05:26 > 0:05:27What's that?
0:05:27 > 0:05:31This is when the Queen came to hand out Maundy money in 2005.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34Certainly an important historical moment for the cathedral.
0:05:34 > 0:05:38And they're great cos there's loads of images of people
0:05:38 > 0:05:41around the cathedral as well.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Presumably, the whole city turns out for things like this. They do, yes.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47It's interesting, when you look at the older photographs.
0:05:47 > 0:05:52For example, this is when they opened the extension in 19 5,
0:05:52 > 0:05:55the east end of the cathedral.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58There were crowds, hundreds deep.
0:05:58 > 0:05:59So many people.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03I'm not sure if so many people would turn up to see something
0:06:03 > 0:06:07as sort of ordinary as an extension being opened on a building now
0:06:08 > 0:06:11Do you think people are as aware these days,
0:06:11 > 0:06:14or as kind of celebratory of these things as they were?
0:06:18 > 0:06:22I would have said no, until we started the renovations
0:06:22 > 0:06:27and the number of people that wanted to comment on what
0:06:27 > 0:06:29they saw as being their cathedral,
0:06:29 > 0:06:32whether they were regular members of the congregation or not, makes me
0:06:32 > 0:06:37think that people do have sort of a deep affection for the cathedral,
0:06:37 > 0:06:41not necessarily in its religious context, but in its historical
0:06:41 > 0:06:45context and the position it takes within the town, definitely.
0:06:53 > 0:06:58MUSICIANS WARM UP
0:07:00 > 0:07:04MUSICIANS PLAY
0:07:24 > 0:07:29Cathedrals are a complex mix of the sacred and the secular.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33Places of worship and pilgrimage, but also of enterprise.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39Wakefield is the third poorest of the 42 Anglican cathedrals
0:07:39 > 0:07:42in England. With no reserves,
0:07:42 > 0:07:45a project as costly as the redevelopment of the nave is
0:07:45 > 0:07:49dependent on fundraising, with money coming from various sources -
0:07:49 > 0:07:52the National Lottery, specialist church funds,
0:07:52 > 0:07:55Wakefield City Council, individual donations.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57?1 a ticket!
0:08:01 > 0:08:05All this has been masterminded by the cathedral's chapter,
0:08:05 > 0:08:06its governing body,
0:08:06 > 0:08:09headed by the Dean, who is supported by a team of fellow clergymen
0:08:09 > 0:08:15and women with arcane titles such as canon missioner.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17Together with lay colleagues,
0:08:17 > 0:08:20they're tasked with both the mission and the administration
0:08:20 > 0:08:25of the cathedral, playing a dual role - priests and project managers.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29Here's Michael, carrying stuff
0:08:29 > 0:08:32Look. Those steps are not that size.
0:08:32 > 0:08:37Aren't they? That's the substructure and they're going to be 300 deep.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40So it won't feel like that at all. That's fine.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43This is the mock-up of the altar and the ambo.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45Is the ambo what I call the lectern? Yes.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49The ambo is a place where you proclaim the Word of God,
0:08:49 > 0:08:53both the Scriptures, which you read, and you preach.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56So it's a combination of the two.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59And the aim is to have something that we can move about the space,
0:08:59 > 0:09:03so that we've got a flexibility about the way we worship here.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07David tells us that until we see them in situ,
0:09:07 > 0:09:10we won't be able to tell whether the proportions are right for this
0:09:10 > 0:09:15space and you'd rather do this in MDF than in the finished woodwork.
0:09:15 > 0:09:18Cos it's cheaper... Oh, are they the samples of the wood? Yes.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20How exciting!
0:09:20 > 0:09:23Yes. Oh, look at this!
0:09:23 > 0:09:25There's the wood.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29That's as it is in the drawing
0:09:29 > 0:09:33That's oak and bur oak. That's for the... Oh, it's for both.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36For both, yeah. This is bigger than the pulpit
0:09:36 > 0:09:37HE CHUCKLES
0:09:37 > 0:09:40You get up there and you're going to feel empowered.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42You're going to want to make a speech straightaway.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45Well, put Ted in it first. Friends, Romans...
0:09:45 > 0:09:47I don't think it's fair... Countrymen...
0:09:47 > 0:09:51It's not fair to judge on your proportions. Lend me your ears. .
0:09:51 > 0:09:53It doesn't look a very big altar, does it?
0:09:53 > 0:09:56This is the most important thing in this building. Yes.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58This is what this church exists for.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01But don't you feel that when you're stood there and the other
0:10:01 > 0:10:04side of the table is way over there somewhere, does that not...?
0:10:04 > 0:10:06But we are...
0:10:06 > 0:10:11We are just servants of the Lord, disappearing at the far side.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14And this is what matters and this is where the action is
0:10:29 > 0:10:32Let us pray.
0:10:32 > 0:10:37Almighty God, whose Kingdom is everlasting and power infinite
0:10:37 > 0:10:40have mercy upon the whole church
0:10:40 > 0:10:44and so rule the heart of thy chosen servant, Elizabeth, our Queen
0:10:44 > 0:10:46and Governor, that she,
0:10:46 > 0:10:50knowing whose minister she is, may above all things seek thy honour
0:10:50 > 0:10:54and glory and that we and all her subjects,
0:10:54 > 0:10:59duly considering whose authority she hath, may faithfully serve
0:10:59 > 0:11:06honour and humbly obey her, in Thee and for Thee, according to Thy
0:11:06 > 0:11:11blessed word and ordinance, through Jesus Christ, our Lord, who with
0:11:11 > 0:11:15Thee and the Holy Ghost liveth and reigneth, ever one God,
0:11:15 > 0:11:18world without end. Amen.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30How many do you get coming to this?
0:11:30 > 0:11:3420 to 30, depending on the temperature!
0:11:35 > 0:11:39It's not too bad today, really, is it?
0:11:39 > 0:11:42Do you think the numbers matter
0:11:42 > 0:11:45Do I think the numbers matter?
0:11:45 > 0:11:49I think it... I think it's good that people want to come and worship God.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51But in a cathedral,
0:11:51 > 0:11:54it's not just about people coming to worship God, it is
0:11:54 > 0:11:59about the daily offering of the Eucharist of morning prayer,
0:11:59 > 0:12:04of evening prayer, at a rhythm on behalf of people,
0:12:04 > 0:12:06as well as with people.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08And so numbers aren't irrelevant,
0:12:08 > 0:12:14but numbers aren't the most relevant thing.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16Good morning. Nice to see you.
0:12:17 > 0:12:19Good morning.
0:12:19 > 0:12:24'125 years since Wakefield Cathedral's foundation, it's a
0:12:24 > 0:12:25'very different world.
0:12:25 > 0:12:29'Throughout the country, church attendance has declined
0:12:29 > 0:12:31'so much so that in 2008,
0:12:31 > 0:12:34'the Church of England set up a commission to examine the structure
0:12:34 > 0:12:38'of the Church to see what changes might improve its effectiveness
0:12:38 > 0:12:41'This Dioceses Commission has concentrated
0:12:41 > 0:12:43'especially on Yorkshire
0:12:43 > 0:12:47'and has come up with a radical proposal to dissolve three
0:12:47 > 0:12:51'of the region's dioceses - Ripon and Leeds, Bradford and Wakefield,
0:12:51 > 0:12:56'and to replace them with one super diocese that will be based in Leeds.
0:12:56 > 0:12:59'The proposal has been largely well received in two of the dioceses
0:12:59 > 0:13:01'but not in Wakefield.'
0:13:04 > 0:13:08There's one paragraph I could read to you which incenses me.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11We'll do that. Hold on.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13One paragraph of the...
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Of the report. The proposal. When was the proposal written?
0:13:16 > 0:13:20Well, this one came out in October. Why is it taking so long?
0:13:20 > 0:13:25Because I have to consult at every turn and come up with this crap
0:13:25 > 0:13:29This is the bit that annoys me I'll read you this paragraph.
0:13:29 > 0:13:35There's a section in the report entitled Benefits To Mission
0:13:35 > 0:13:40and under that, there's a heading for Cathedrals.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44"The single new diocese with its three cathedrals..."
0:13:44 > 0:13:48And potentially a pro-cathedral in Leeds. Which is?
0:13:48 > 0:13:51"..offers an almost unique opportunity within the Church
0:13:51 > 0:13:56"to restate the role of cathedrals and explore innovative ways in which
0:13:56 > 0:14:00"cathedrals can operate within the diocese, working with parishes,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03"civic authorities and local communities
0:14:03 > 0:14:07"and ensuring a much closer collaboration in mission-related
0:14:07 > 0:14:13"activities than has perhaps been possible or achieved in the past
0:14:13 > 0:14:17"for the mutual benefit of all within the diocese."
0:14:17 > 0:14:21I have to say, that paragraph really annoyed me when I first read it
0:14:21 > 0:14:23And the reason it irritated me
0:14:23 > 0:14:26was I think that's exactly what we're trying to do, here in Wakefield
0:14:26 > 0:14:30We're trying to explore innovative ways in which we can operate within
0:14:30 > 0:14:32the diocese, work with parishes civic authorities,
0:14:32 > 0:14:36local communities, ensuring closer collaboration in mission-related
0:14:36 > 0:14:39activities - that is exactly the driving force, and for them
0:14:39 > 0:14:41to tell us that this
0:14:41 > 0:14:45new opportunity of putting three cathedrals together is going
0:14:45 > 0:14:48to enable us to do that, that's precisely what we've been doing
0:14:48 > 0:14:52but then it jeopardises our theological integrity
0:14:52 > 0:14:54and our financial basis...
0:14:54 > 0:14:57I found most distressing.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06'The Dioceses Commission's plan has proved to be divisive.
0:15:06 > 0:15:11'Ripon and Leeds and Bradford feel very differently to Wakefield,
0:15:11 > 0:15:14'arguing that a new super diocese based in Leeds will better serve
0:15:14 > 0:15:18'the region and give a much-needed boost to the Church in Yorkshire.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21'The plan is that the new diocese will keep all
0:15:21 > 0:15:24'three of the existing cathedrals,
0:15:24 > 0:15:28'but to have three cathedrals in one diocese is uncharted territory
0:15:28 > 0:15:30'and for Jonathan,
0:15:30 > 0:15:34'this raises fundamental questions about what a cathedral is.
0:15:34 > 0:15:38'To explore these issues, the deans of the affected cathedrals have been
0:15:38 > 0:15:42'invited by Jonathan to consider the pros and cons of the proposal.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45'They've been joined by a former senior civil servant with
0:15:45 > 0:15:48'a track record in management change.
0:15:48 > 0:15:52'John Tuckett has been appointed to the three dioceses to help
0:15:52 > 0:15:54'guide them through the proposed new scheme '
0:15:54 > 0:15:56You love a good swap, don't you
0:15:56 > 0:16:00Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and threats.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03And what we just want to cover in half an hour
0:16:03 > 0:16:06and it's a good timescale to do a swap,
0:16:06 > 0:16:08is a number of bullet points around,
0:16:08 > 0:16:12and the context we're looking at is the role of cathedrals,
0:16:12 > 0:16:18as they are now, and how they might be in a new diocese
0:16:18 > 0:16:22So it's not just strengths, weaknesses, opportunities and
0:16:22 > 0:16:26threats of the cathedrals as they are now. It's strengths, weaknesses,
0:16:26 > 0:16:30opportunities and threats of cathedrals in the new context.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33You can go wherever you like, but you'd better tell me
0:16:33 > 0:16:36whether it's a strength, weakness, opportunity or a threat.
0:16:36 > 0:16:37Start with a strength.
0:16:43 > 0:16:49I think it releases pressure on cathedral diaries
0:16:49 > 0:16:53because some events will be held
0:16:53 > 0:16:57in one cathedral and not the others.
0:16:59 > 0:17:04Cathedrals across the country all work with the same basic
0:17:04 > 0:17:11self-understanding, that they are...the mother church of the
0:17:11 > 0:17:18diocese, the church that provides the diocesan bishop with a seat and which...
0:17:19 > 0:17:23..provides a focus for mission and worship throughout that diocese.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27That's what they are. They have a role to the diocese
0:17:27 > 0:17:32Clearly, some of the bigger cathedrals have a sort of life
0:17:32 > 0:17:35all of their own, but it's very clear to me that
0:17:35 > 0:17:37when you're a cathedral like Wakefield,
0:17:37 > 0:17:40the only reason we are a cathedral is because there's a diocese.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44As soon as you put three cathedrals into one diocese,
0:17:44 > 0:17:49that whole self-understanding starts to wobble.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53My understanding is that each cathedral will
0:17:53 > 0:17:58retain its seat for the diocesan bishop,
0:17:58 > 0:18:02so it will still have the seat of the bishop in that cathedral
0:18:02 > 0:18:06So the bishop has a seat in three cathedrals,
0:18:06 > 0:18:09so I don't see that as a weakness.
0:18:09 > 0:18:15What the basis for a cathedral being a seat for a diocesan bishop
0:18:15 > 0:18:17comes from.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20The word. Cathedral. The bishop's seat.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22That's what the whole thing is
0:18:22 > 0:18:26Is there a theological argument which says a bishop can only
0:18:26 > 0:18:28have one seat?
0:18:28 > 0:18:32There's a tradition that the bishop has one seat.
0:18:32 > 0:18:37And for instance, when in the old days, Bath and Wells shared...
0:18:37 > 0:18:41There were two cathedrals, they used to move the seat between the two,
0:18:41 > 0:18:44rather than have a seat in each to make it clear that the bishop
0:18:44 > 0:18:48has his seat and where his seat is at the moment is the cathedral.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52So this is, in the Church of England, a novelty.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55But it's breaking a tradition..
0:18:55 > 0:18:58What I'm trying to distinguish is, is it the breaking of a tradition,
0:18:58 > 0:19:01rather than the breaking of a theological precept?
0:19:01 > 0:19:02Ah, but traditional
0:19:02 > 0:19:07and theological precepts in the Church tend to blur into each other.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09That's one of the difficulties isn't it?
0:19:09 > 0:19:13The problem that it gives the wider Church is that
0:19:13 > 0:19:17if you take the argument that where you have a cathedral,
0:19:17 > 0:19:21that cathedral must be the seat of a diocesan bishop,
0:19:21 > 0:19:27you're almost predicating any future diocesan map,
0:19:27 > 0:19:31based on where the cathedrals happen to have been built.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34Or you get rid of the cathedrals. Or you create cathedrals.
0:19:34 > 0:19:35Or you create cathedrals.
0:19:35 > 0:19:41But if you take today's context with declining church congregations,
0:19:41 > 0:19:46the Church in the state that it s in in the 21st century...
0:19:46 > 0:19:47I'm just posing the question -
0:19:47 > 0:19:53if a major constraint to dioceses of the future is the historical
0:19:53 > 0:19:57places we happened to build cathedrals in up until
0:19:57 > 0:20:00the 1200s, is that the most sensible constraint in designing
0:20:00 > 0:20:03the church of the future? It's a real issue.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06So there's always change.
0:20:06 > 0:20:11Do you think that in 50 years' time, any of this will matter?
0:20:13 > 0:20:15I often wonder that.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17Um...
0:20:17 > 0:20:20and I think there is a natural resistance
0:20:20 > 0:20:22in the Church of England to change.
0:20:22 > 0:20:28I've been pondering recently Jesus,
0:20:28 > 0:20:35who it seems to me, in his own day, was...radical.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37Pushing for change.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42And...challenging the religious people
0:20:42 > 0:20:44to renew their thinking.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49But I think that the evidence here in Wakefield
0:20:49 > 0:20:51is that's what we're trying to do.
0:20:51 > 0:20:56We're trying to redefine our thinking, renew our cathedral
0:20:56 > 0:21:01and be more exciting, radical, edgy
0:21:01 > 0:21:04than we've been before.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28What happens behind there, Kevin?
0:21:28 > 0:21:31Pardon? What happens behind there?
0:21:31 > 0:21:35There's an organ behind there. This is on just to keep all the dust off.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38Um...obviously, if it gets dusty inside there,
0:21:38 > 0:21:41it'll just cause a mass amount of problems really.
0:21:41 > 0:21:44So...we try to keep it covered as best we can.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48I don't think it helps that much really.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57It's a death trap out here, so watch it.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59It's dry, so it should be all right.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Try and stay as much on the dry side as possible.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07And definitely hold on, Richard
0:22:07 > 0:22:09It gets really bad here with all these trees.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13LAUGHTER
0:22:19 > 0:22:22Bishop's throne's in here? Yeah
0:22:22 > 0:22:23Why's it in here?
0:22:23 > 0:22:27Because when they started, um...doing renovation work,
0:22:27 > 0:22:29there were just nowhere to store it
0:22:29 > 0:22:31because it's quite a substantial big piece.
0:22:31 > 0:22:35It's... Back, it must be nearly eight foot tall.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38It must be four foot wide and maybe six foot long.
0:22:38 > 0:22:40I just wonder if I could...
0:22:41 > 0:22:43..sort of pull this out.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48That's the groovy cushions that were in it, though.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50LAUGHTER
0:22:50 > 0:22:54Some old dear probably handmade those.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59Can you see that there? This is the very back. You see how tall it is?
0:22:59 > 0:23:02Yeah. And then this is your pattern.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04And it's like, all patterned like that, all carved.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07Basically, with all the work that was going on,
0:23:07 > 0:23:09because we were having services in the east end,
0:23:09 > 0:23:11there were nowhere for this to go.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15Because, like, you probably get ten chairs where that goes.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Probably even more.
0:23:18 > 0:23:23And I think bums on seats were more important than just that one chair.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26The bishop's still got a chair in there where he can be seated
0:23:27 > 0:23:30Does he come much? Does he come to the cathedral a lot?
0:23:30 > 0:23:33He does quite a few services on the rota.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35He does morning prayer every now and again.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38Like big services, ordinations he'll be there.
0:23:38 > 0:23:41Because, obviously, he's swearing in priests and stuff.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44But, yeah, he comes every now and again.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47He's got one of the busiest jobs in the diocese, hasn't he, really?
0:23:48 > 0:23:50Yeah. He's a lovely chap, though.
0:23:52 > 0:23:53Mm.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56Is it his cathedral, or the dean's? It's the dean's.
0:23:56 > 0:23:58Don't say I told you!
0:23:58 > 0:23:59LAUGHTER
0:23:59 > 0:24:01No, it's, er...
0:24:01 > 0:24:03I know the bishop's the boss,
0:24:03 > 0:24:06but I think Jonathan's the boss of the cathedral. Definitely.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12I would imagine him and the bishop have the final say on most things.
0:24:14 > 0:24:17I tend to stay out of those sort of...
0:24:17 > 0:24:21politics of the Church of England and stuff.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24# There's a chill in the air so crisp and so fresh
0:24:24 > 0:24:27# That Frosty himself would be proud
0:24:27 > 0:24:31# There's a chill everywhere and time's drawing close
0:24:31 > 0:24:33# When loved ones and friends gather round
0:24:33 > 0:24:37# It's a feeling of joy for every girl, every boy
0:24:37 > 0:24:41# Knowing Santa soon will be here... #
0:24:41 > 0:24:42HUBBUB
0:24:50 > 0:24:54Have you got a cold? I've had one for a fortnight.
0:24:54 > 0:24:55Really? And it's...
0:24:55 > 0:24:58It's very greedy of you to hang on to it for so long.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01I know. But it's been grim, really.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04I brought one back from Germany with me.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06I've got my Olbas. I put it somewhere.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11Very organised. They're my glasses.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13Guess what Matt gave me for Christmas.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15A chain to go around the neck? No.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17He gave me a thing that looked like a sort of...
0:25:17 > 0:25:21You know those Easter Island statue things, sculptures? Yes
0:25:21 > 0:25:23It's one of those made of wood
0:25:23 > 0:25:25He said, "In case you're not clear what it's for,
0:25:25 > 0:25:28"it's to stand on the side to put your glasses on
0:25:28 > 0:25:31"so when you wonder where you've put them, that's where they are."
0:25:31 > 0:25:32Isn't that marvellous!
0:25:32 > 0:25:35There's a great joke about, um. .
0:25:35 > 0:25:36The bishop's glasses.
0:25:36 > 0:25:38I do tend to lose them.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41The bishop has a chaplain whose principal responsibility
0:25:41 > 0:25:43is the caring of the glasses.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45I have been known to wear two pairs at once.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47That's also confusing for people.
0:25:47 > 0:25:51We were saying recently how much we're missing those nice stripy ones you bought.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53Oh! Well! You haven't got them with you?
0:25:53 > 0:25:56I've got them with me somewhere I don't know where they are.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59Actually, you've just made me think. I'm not sure I've got my glasses.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02Well, you're wearing them. They're in my pocket. Let me just show. .
0:26:03 > 0:26:07..the dean evidence of these very fine glasses.
0:26:08 > 0:26:09The originals, as you know,
0:26:09 > 0:26:12are in a coach somewhere between Giant's Causeway and Belfast.
0:26:12 > 0:26:17Oh, please do wear them! These were Poundland in Belfast
0:26:18 > 0:26:20LAUGHTER
0:26:20 > 0:26:23What do you think? They're very Christmassy, aren't they? They are.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25CHORAL SINGING
0:26:43 > 0:26:47In the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49CONGREGATION: Amen.
0:26:49 > 0:26:50I bring you good news of great joy.
0:26:50 > 0:26:54CONGREGATION: A Saviour has been born to you. Alleluia!
0:26:54 > 0:26:57Unto us, a child is born.
0:26:57 > 0:27:01CONGREGATION: Unto us, a Son is given. Alleluia!
0:27:01 > 0:27:04In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06ALL: Amen.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11Is that all right there? Yeah. Help yourself.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13I might drink it, actually, otherwise it'll get cold.
0:27:13 > 0:27:15Absolutely.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17So... Cathedrals, yes. Cathedrals.
0:27:17 > 0:27:18I asked Bishop of Wakefield,
0:27:18 > 0:27:21what does the Cathedral of Wakefield mean to you?
0:27:21 > 0:27:24What part does in play in your. .
0:27:24 > 0:27:27in your function here as bishop for the diocese of Wakefield?
0:27:27 > 0:27:31Well, um...I think, I think,
0:27:31 > 0:27:33in an episcopally ordered church,
0:27:33 > 0:27:38cathedrals are a crucial part of what it's all about.
0:27:38 > 0:27:39Um...
0:27:39 > 0:27:44And, I mean, I come from an odd situation in as much as
0:27:44 > 0:27:49not many bishops in the past have come from being deans.
0:27:49 > 0:27:53So, um...I suppose I had some sort of experience
0:27:53 > 0:27:55of cathedrals in that way.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57And I'd also been a residentiary canon.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00You were dean at Norwich? I was dean at Norwich. Prior to coming here?
0:28:00 > 0:28:02Well, nearly eight years, yes. Right.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05What sort of a god is our God?
0:28:07 > 0:28:10He's a God who does not stand on his dignity,
0:28:10 > 0:28:13but humbles himself.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16He comes among us as one of us
0:28:16 > 0:28:18He comes where we are.
0:28:20 > 0:28:25He doesn't arrive on earth in a rocket surrounded by a huge retinue.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29He's born as a tiny, helpless babe
0:28:29 > 0:28:33in a dirty and draughty stable
0:28:33 > 0:28:36Could the Church function without them, cathedrals?
0:28:36 > 0:28:38Why are they so significant? Well...
0:28:38 > 0:28:41To a bishop, that you have this place?
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Well, because ultimately, um..
0:28:44 > 0:28:46And this is, I think,
0:28:46 > 0:28:49absolutely essential to a theological understanding
0:28:49 > 0:28:51of the Church, um...
0:28:51 > 0:28:54the bishop is there as the focus of unity.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57If you want to know where and what
0:28:57 > 0:29:00and who the Church is in a place,
0:29:00 > 0:29:03it is the group of people,
0:29:03 > 0:29:08both regular worshippers, but lots more than that,
0:29:08 > 0:29:11who look to that bishop as their bishop.
0:29:12 > 0:29:17And if that's the case, then their bishop needs some place of focus.
0:29:17 > 0:29:22And that's the point of having the chair, the cathedral.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24So I do think they're important
0:29:24 > 0:29:29And I'd far sooner have more smaller dioceses with their own bishop
0:29:29 > 0:29:33and cathedral than great big sprawling ones
0:29:33 > 0:29:36that sort of multiply focuses,
0:29:36 > 0:29:40both in terms of people and buildings.
0:29:40 > 0:29:45I think it makes sense sometimes to share the actual running
0:29:45 > 0:29:48and all that sort of stuff across dioceses and boundaries
0:29:48 > 0:29:50But don't lose the focus.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16FAINT CHORAL SINGING
0:30:24 > 0:30:26INSTRUMENTAL
0:30:45 > 0:30:50It's an historic moment. This is very significant because ..
0:30:50 > 0:30:54this is the bit that's different from before.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59This is... The labyrinth is the new bit.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02This is us making a difference to the cathedral
0:31:02 > 0:31:04for generations to come...
0:31:05 > 0:31:10..new opportunities to explore a spiritual journey.
0:31:10 > 0:31:12I think this was my idea, the labyrinth.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17I'm just trying to remember. I think...
0:31:17 > 0:31:19I went to Chartres,
0:31:19 > 0:31:21which is where the most famous labyrinth is in Europe,
0:31:21 > 0:31:24and came back and thought, we need a labyrinth.
0:31:25 > 0:31:29"If Chartres have got one, why can't Wakefield have one" sort of thing.
0:31:29 > 0:31:33You've actually used one yourself, have you? I have.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38You ponder.
0:31:38 > 0:31:42You ponder life and its meaning
0:31:42 > 0:31:46I was surprised. I've used one in the open air in Swanwick
0:31:47 > 0:31:49And you take it at the pace you want to...
0:31:50 > 0:31:52..and you walk forwards...
0:31:54 > 0:31:56..and as you come to a turn in the labyrinth...
0:31:59 > 0:32:00..you think about turns in your life.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10It's odd when you reach the middle.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12And you reach the end.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14As you can imagine.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Wakefield Cathedral is intending to reopen
0:32:25 > 0:32:27on the day before Palm Sunday,
0:32:27 > 0:32:30when the renovated nave will be rededicated by the bishop.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35Three weeks before that, the Dioceses Commission's proposal
0:32:35 > 0:32:38to merge Wakefield diocese with those of Ripon
0:32:38 > 0:32:41and Leeds and Bradford will be voted on.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45But the implications for cathedrals remain a concern in Wakefield,
0:32:45 > 0:32:48so much so that Jonathan has now invited the entire chapters
0:32:48 > 0:32:51of the three cathedrals to spend an evening exploring
0:32:51 > 0:32:53the merits and demerits of the scheme.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59HE TAPS GLASS Can I just...?
0:32:59 > 0:33:01I don't think we're all here yet, but I ought to say,
0:33:01 > 0:33:04it's nice to see you all, welcome to Wakefield.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07I think this is probably a significant moment
0:33:07 > 0:33:09for three chapters to meet together,
0:33:09 > 0:33:13which doesn't happen very often in the Church of England.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15And certainly, they don't very often meet
0:33:15 > 0:33:17with a possibility of coming to work together in one diocese.
0:33:17 > 0:33:21So it's almost an historic meeting that's taking place tonight.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23Is this whole thing quite unprecedented,
0:33:23 > 0:33:26the whole notion that they might dissolve a diocese?
0:33:26 > 0:33:29Well, there's various talk about ..
0:33:32 > 0:33:33HE SIGHS
0:33:33 > 0:33:36That's a different question from what I was thinking you were asking
0:33:36 > 0:33:38Um... What did you think I was asking
0:33:38 > 0:33:41More than one cathedral in a diocese.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43The idea of dissolving a diocese ..
0:33:44 > 0:33:47I don't know when it last happened,
0:33:47 > 0:33:50if it's ever happened. I mean, it must have happened.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52Dioceses have changed shape and evolved.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56Bits of dioceses have moved,
0:33:56 > 0:34:00but I'm not sure I remember the closure of a diocese, as it were,
0:34:00 > 0:34:02or the dissolution of it.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06Ripon is very rural and Wakefield is much more...urban,
0:34:06 > 0:34:08if I might use that word.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11But it's very different to Bradford. Very different to Bradford.
0:34:11 > 0:34:15I think Bradford is clearly in a particular situation
0:34:15 > 0:34:16because of the census results
0:34:16 > 0:34:19and this, that and the other for Bradford.
0:34:19 > 0:34:20So that might shape you.
0:34:20 > 0:34:24And here we are in the city centre in a way that you're not.
0:34:24 > 0:34:26So it does give us a distinctive edge.
0:34:26 > 0:34:31But all of us are called to be here for whoever wants to come, aren't we?
0:34:31 > 0:34:34Cathedrals are success stories
0:34:34 > 0:34:36That's true across the country
0:34:36 > 0:34:38Jonathan was sitting in this meeting.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41But, I mean, the recent research on cathedrals
0:34:41 > 0:34:45shows beyond any doubt that we for whatever reason,
0:34:45 > 0:34:47we're a success story at the minute.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51People somehow seek us out and come because we're open,
0:34:51 > 0:34:54because we're there.
0:34:54 > 0:34:57And that's something other churches can't provide.
0:34:57 > 0:35:01But if funding is cut, we won't be there.
0:35:01 > 0:35:04We can't keep our doors open as we do
0:35:04 > 0:35:07if we don't have financial resources to do it.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10All three of us as cathedrals
0:35:10 > 0:35:14rely on funding from the church commissioners to do our job.
0:35:16 > 0:35:21We rely on funding for the dean and two canons in each place,
0:35:21 > 0:35:23which every cathedral in the country receives,
0:35:23 > 0:35:25and we rely, each of us,
0:35:25 > 0:35:30on a discretionary grant which comes from the church commissioners
0:35:30 > 0:35:33and is targeted at the poorer cathedrals of the country.
0:35:35 > 0:35:36Of which you're one?
0:35:36 > 0:35:40We are one of the poorest cathedrals in the county. We're not...
0:35:40 > 0:35:43Last year, we weren't bottom, we were third from bottom.
0:35:43 > 0:35:48The only two that were poorer than us in terms of our general accounts
0:35:48 > 0:35:51were Bradford and Leicester.
0:35:53 > 0:35:55And your concern is that in the long run,
0:35:55 > 0:35:58the funding won't come in for two canons and a dean?
0:36:00 > 0:36:03I'm a church commissioner.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06And I think it is hard to understand
0:36:06 > 0:36:08why the church commissioners
0:36:08 > 0:36:12would want to fund three cathedrals in this diocese
0:36:12 > 0:36:15and only one in every other diocese of the land.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20Opportunities might be created because of what's before us. Yeah.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24The opportunities to work more together, to learn from each other,
0:36:24 > 0:36:26the stimulus that comes from discussion and debate
0:36:26 > 0:36:29with each other, with a wider group of people.
0:36:29 > 0:36:31Definite opportunity.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34We thought there were definite areas
0:36:34 > 0:36:37where we could combine and share resources.
0:36:37 > 0:36:42Do we need, actually, three education officers?
0:36:42 > 0:36:43Similarly, admin.
0:36:43 > 0:36:47I mean, there's bound to be kind of admin economies of scale there.
0:36:47 > 0:36:53If we don't have a guarantee from the powers that be
0:36:53 > 0:36:57that the three cathedrals will be... continue to be treated
0:36:57 > 0:37:00in the same way as other cathedrals
0:37:00 > 0:37:02and not put into one pot,
0:37:02 > 0:37:06then we would be foolish to vote for this.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09Because we're not... We're risking the future.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12Certainly here at Wakefield, where we do, I think pretty well,
0:37:12 > 0:37:14use our money to employ people
0:37:14 > 0:37:18We're not only risking the future of the cathedral,
0:37:18 > 0:37:21but we're risking the jobs of a lot of people.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35# When I was young, I fell in love
0:37:35 > 0:37:39# I asked my sweetheart what lies ahead
0:37:39 > 0:37:43# Will we have rainbows day after day?
0:37:43 > 0:37:47# Here's what my sweetheart said
0:37:47 > 0:37:50# Que sera, sera
0:37:50 > 0:37:54# Whatever will be, will be
0:37:54 > 0:37:58# The future's not ours to see
0:37:58 > 0:38:00# Que sera, sera. #
0:38:08 > 0:38:11So...
0:38:12 > 0:38:17..coming into a beautiful holy building
0:38:17 > 0:38:19is quite interesting, isn't it
0:38:19 > 0:38:21It makes you feel a bit different.
0:38:21 > 0:38:23It's not like anywhere else.
0:38:24 > 0:38:26And this would've been the same for the people
0:38:26 > 0:38:31coming into Jerusalem 2,000 years ago, for Jesus and his friends
0:38:31 > 0:38:35They would've come from outside into a beautiful holy building
0:38:35 > 0:38:37And their holy building's called a temple.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39Ours is called a cathedral.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43Let us pray to the Father.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45ALL: Christ our Lord.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48For this diocese of Wakefield..
0:38:48 > 0:38:51for this cathedral, its dean and chapter.
0:38:52 > 0:38:57For the development, people working to complete that development..
0:38:58 > 0:39:00..and for the reopening of the cathedral
0:39:00 > 0:39:02and the keeping of Holy Week.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04Let us pray to the Father.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06ALL: Through Christ our Lord.
0:39:10 > 0:39:15The 23rd is the Saturday evening before Palm Sunday. Right.
0:39:15 > 0:39:21And...at 5:00, we have the rededication of the nave.
0:39:22 > 0:39:27At 4:00, we've invited the grandees to tea, or we are. Right.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29So you can come if you want to to tea.
0:39:29 > 0:39:30It might be quite good to do that.
0:39:30 > 0:39:33And you've got Bishop Ake here haven't you?
0:39:33 > 0:39:35He could come to the tea. Well, yes.
0:39:35 > 0:39:38There's no greater grandee than a Swedish bishop.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41We haven't talked about the dedication of the nave yet
0:39:41 > 0:39:43but I think at some point in the service,
0:39:43 > 0:39:46we'll have him sprinkle and do whatever.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48I think that's sensible. The altar? Well, no.
0:39:48 > 0:39:52What we thought about the altar you're with us for... I was hoping...
0:39:52 > 0:39:55Ah, but you're with us for Holy Week. Right.
0:39:55 > 0:40:00So the next morning, we thought if we put you on to celebrate at 9: 5,
0:40:00 > 0:40:02you could consecrate the altar
0:40:02 > 0:40:04Yes. With much oil.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07With much oil at 9:15. And rags. Yes. Right.
0:40:07 > 0:40:08If you're happy to do that? Yes
0:40:08 > 0:40:12We'll start outside, as we normally do on Palm Sunday. Yes.
0:40:12 > 0:40:14Have the procession in. No donkeys?
0:40:14 > 0:40:16We don't have donkeys, not on our new floor.
0:40:18 > 0:40:23Then, as soon as we come in, you can consecrate the altar,
0:40:23 > 0:40:25and then we'll go into the Passion Narrative. Right.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28Because it won't make sense to consecrate it after we've heard. .
0:40:28 > 0:40:31I mean, it just will be the wrong flavour, I think. Yes.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34Well, also the Passion Narrative brings in a sort of notion
0:40:34 > 0:40:37of sacrifice, and altars are about sacrifices. That's right.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30It's Johnny with you on a Sunday morning.
0:41:30 > 0:41:33The Very Reverend Jonathan Greener, the Dean of Wakefield Cathedral joins us.
0:41:33 > 0:41:37An exciting time for the cathedral at the moment. Hugely exciting
0:41:37 > 0:41:40You've had the decorators in? Well, they're in at the moment really
0:41:40 > 0:41:43We've been shut for over a year
0:41:43 > 0:41:47and in, what, ten days' time we'll get our nave back...
0:41:47 > 0:41:49This is rather exciting. ..and it looks stunning.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52It's another big week for the diocese as a whole with
0:41:52 > 0:41:56regards to the reorganisation, and this is the amalgamation of the
0:41:56 > 0:42:00three dioceses around West Yorkshire into one big overarching diocese.
0:42:00 > 0:42:04Absolutely. I think at the cathedral we're worried about it
0:42:04 > 0:42:08because of the funding, partly
0:42:08 > 0:42:11We've been guaranteed that the cathedrals will continue to be
0:42:11 > 0:42:14funded as they are until 2016.
0:42:14 > 0:42:17Well, 2016 isn't long in terms of the kingdom of heaven,
0:42:17 > 0:42:20and there's no guarantees about what will come beyond then.
0:42:20 > 0:42:24I think the other thing is that one of the difficulties is that we have
0:42:24 > 0:42:26to vote next week but the plans aren't fully cooked.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30They keep telling us we can decide that once we've voted to go ahead.
0:42:30 > 0:42:34Now, Jesus in the Gospels tells us, "If you're going to build a tower,
0:42:34 > 0:42:36"make sure you've got the money in place first."
0:42:36 > 0:42:40You know, otherwise you're either being foolhardy
0:42:40 > 0:42:43or you're being naive, and somehow I think they're saying,
0:42:43 > 0:42:45"If you vote for this, all will be well,"
0:42:45 > 0:42:48but by that time the Dioceses Commission will have pushed off
0:42:48 > 0:42:51to some other part of the country and we'll be left to pick up the mess.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54RADIO: Well, John Tuckett is the programme manager for the
0:42:54 > 0:42:56reworking of the dioceses. John, welcome to the show.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58I mean, there are serious issues, aren't there?
0:42:58 > 0:43:01We've heard from, for instance Jonathan Greener this morning, and
0:43:01 > 0:43:05one of the big issues that he's worried about is this notion of
0:43:05 > 0:43:09funding, and actually you've only worked out the next few years of funding for these...
0:43:09 > 0:43:10That's your seat belt.
0:43:10 > 0:43:15..after 2016, and in the lifespan of the church, three years is nothing.
0:43:16 > 0:43:20Is this just an unfortunate prerequisite of saving money for the church?
0:43:20 > 0:43:23No, I don't think it is a question of saving money.
0:43:23 > 0:43:25You do talk about saving money don't you, in your proposals?
0:43:25 > 0:43:30?800,000 a year, administrative savings of 10% over
0:43:30 > 0:43:34a five-year period. There's mention of saving money in this as a reason.
0:43:34 > 0:43:39Yes, but it's not saving money that gets clawed back by some central organisation.
0:43:39 > 0:43:43It's saving money that can then be reinvested and re-spent
0:43:43 > 0:43:45in other ways supporting the Church's mission
0:43:45 > 0:43:48throughout the area. It's getting the best value out of the money
0:43:48 > 0:43:52that the church has, not about reducing the amount of money
0:43:52 > 0:43:54that the church in this area has.
0:43:54 > 0:43:55OK, John, the vote is next Saturday,
0:43:55 > 0:43:58I guess we'll know the outcome straightaway, will we?
0:43:58 > 0:44:00I think each of the synods will vote and we'll know the results
0:44:00 > 0:44:03but then let's emphasise this is only one stage in the process.
0:44:03 > 0:44:06Of course. This isn't the end of the day, as it were,
0:44:06 > 0:44:08whatever happens in the nature of the vote.
0:44:08 > 0:44:10OK, John, thanks for spending some time with us today,
0:44:10 > 0:44:13enjoy the rest of your weekend Thanks very much.
0:44:13 > 0:44:18At the heart of Bradford city, BBC Radio Leeds. Well, there we are.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24What do you make of that? Why does he say it's not the end of the day?
0:44:24 > 0:44:29Because, of course, the Archbishop of York might decide that this is
0:44:29 > 0:44:34an issue of such importance for the national Church,
0:44:34 > 0:44:38which I think is the criteria against which he has to decide
0:44:38 > 0:44:43that he'll choose to take it to the General Synod in any case.
0:44:44 > 0:44:46Do you think it warrants that?
0:44:48 > 0:44:54I think that the report makes it clear that this is a local issue.
0:44:54 > 0:44:58It's not a scheme for the national Church, we're not setting precedents,
0:44:58 > 0:45:04so I wonder how he can possibly choose to exercise that right.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10But... But who am I?
0:45:14 > 0:45:16The Dean of Wakefield. Absolutely!
0:45:22 > 0:45:25The Church of England makes its decisions in synods
0:45:25 > 0:45:28church councils that divide into houses,
0:45:28 > 0:45:31houses of bishops, clergy, and the laity.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36The first step in the decision on the dissolution of the three
0:45:36 > 0:45:40Yorkshire dioceses is for each of the affected dioceses to conduct
0:45:40 > 0:45:44simultaneously its own synod debate in a vote,
0:45:44 > 0:45:47a straightforward for or against the proposal.
0:45:50 > 0:45:55The Church of England has to change. Well, I think it has to change
0:45:55 > 0:45:58if it is going to be ready for the challenges
0:45:58 > 0:46:00which we all know about in the 21st century.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05In the time I've been here, for the past 16 years,
0:46:05 > 0:46:10we've gone from 200 clergy to 1 0. That's going to continue to decline.
0:46:10 > 0:46:14We're told on the mission document that this is
0:46:14 > 0:46:18a once-in-a-generation opportunity to renew
0:46:18 > 0:46:22and restructure the mission of the Church of England in this area
0:46:22 > 0:46:26That's the language of a vacuum cleaner salesman at your back
0:46:26 > 0:46:30door and it needs to be treated accordingly.
0:46:30 > 0:46:33I've read the papers, I've heard the arguments, I've discussed
0:46:33 > 0:46:37with many people what it's all about, and I've prayed a lot.
0:46:39 > 0:46:42From my finance perspective, as you'd expect me to speak,
0:46:42 > 0:46:46there's no reason for us not to go ahead.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49This week, thank God, we get back our cathedral.
0:46:49 > 0:46:54The nave is looking fabulous, renewed for our 125th birthday
0:46:54 > 0:46:58It's a vision of what can happen to this diocese too.
0:46:58 > 0:47:02All of us at the cathedral are committed to working with
0:47:02 > 0:47:04the diocese to renew our worship,
0:47:04 > 0:47:07our mission, our prayer, our service.
0:47:09 > 0:47:12Let us pray for all three dioceses -
0:47:12 > 0:47:16Bradford, Ripon and Leeds, and Wakefield.
0:47:21 > 0:47:25For...40.
0:47:25 > 0:47:29Against...71.
0:47:29 > 0:47:32Abstentions...four.
0:47:32 > 0:47:37The motion was not approved by Wakefield Diocesan Synod.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42There's always a sense of slight sadness
0:47:42 > 0:47:46and attrition on these occasions because you hate being divided
0:47:46 > 0:47:50over issues as synods, but I think
0:47:50 > 0:47:52that we've made, as a synod,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55the right decision for our diocese and our cathedral.
0:47:55 > 0:47:58It remains to be seen where this process leads at the next stage
0:47:58 > 0:48:01Is it all right if I just do a minute? Yes.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04You don't mind one minute, do you, Michael? Not at all. Thank you
0:48:05 > 0:48:07So the results of the vote are in,
0:48:07 > 0:48:11and Wakefield has very much voted against.
0:48:11 > 0:48:13You must be very pleased about that?
0:48:13 > 0:48:16Interestingly, I'm not very pleased, I'm relieved.
0:48:16 > 0:48:19RADIO: The dioceses of Ripon and Leeds both voted in favour of the
0:48:19 > 0:48:22move. Nick Baines is the Bishop of Bradford, they voted strongly
0:48:22 > 0:48:26in favour. 90 for it, four against it.
0:48:26 > 0:48:28Jonathan Greener says it threatens cathedrals.
0:48:28 > 0:48:31That has been answered in writing by the Church commissioners.
0:48:31 > 0:48:33They will not be treated in any way differently
0:48:33 > 0:48:35from any other cathedral.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37The fact and the reality is just ignored.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39It's not to do with mission,
0:48:39 > 0:48:42saying, "We're relieved that it didn't go through."
0:48:42 > 0:48:43So what is it to do with then?
0:48:43 > 0:48:46Well, my own view, and maybe I shouldn't be saying this,
0:48:46 > 0:48:49but my own view is that, erm, you've got to have a vision
0:48:49 > 0:48:52for the future that's got to be creative.
0:48:52 > 0:48:56And being relieved that something hasn't gone through, but then saying
0:48:56 > 0:48:58in the next breath, "But we've got to change",
0:48:58 > 0:49:02I just find, you know, well, breathtaking.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09Have you got the numbers in your mind from yesterday?
0:49:09 > 0:49:13For the other dioceses? I have. Can you tell us?
0:49:13 > 0:49:16Wakefield...
0:49:16 > 0:49:21for every one who voted in favour, two didn't.
0:49:21 > 0:49:26That was 40 for, 76 against,
0:49:26 > 0:49:28with four abstentions.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32Bradford had a convincing vote in favour, 90 in favour
0:49:32 > 0:49:34and four against,
0:49:34 > 0:49:40and Leeds had 70 in favour, and I think it was 18 against.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47What matters in terms of the numbers?
0:49:47 > 0:49:49Is the total across the three dioceses?
0:49:51 > 0:49:56Because that's two-to-one for, isn't it? Across the three.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59If you take it across the three it's two-to-one for.
0:50:01 > 0:50:02I don't know what matters.
0:50:02 > 0:50:07It seems to me that Wakefield made a convincing statement
0:50:07 > 0:50:11that we felt this wasn't the right way forward for us,
0:50:11 > 0:50:15and therefore, with a majority of 36...
0:50:17 > 0:50:21..why would the Archbishop think of trying to force it through?
0:50:21 > 0:50:24When, for instance over the women bishops debate, six people
0:50:24 > 0:50:28defeated a scheme that's so clearly the will of the wider church.
0:50:28 > 0:50:30I presume the only issue there is whether
0:50:30 > 0:50:33the maths is done on the basis of the total of the three
0:50:33 > 0:50:36dioceses rather than just the total of the one.
0:50:36 > 0:50:42Yes, but to my memory,
0:50:42 > 0:50:46the Church of England has never favoured arranged marriages,
0:50:46 > 0:50:49and I can't see why it would on this occasion.
0:50:51 > 0:50:54# From lightning and tempest
0:50:54 > 0:50:58# From plague, pestilence and famine
0:50:58 > 0:51:00# From battle and murder
0:51:00 > 0:51:03# And from sudden death... #
0:51:05 > 0:51:07CHOIR SINGS
0:51:11 > 0:51:13Well, it's been quite a week.
0:51:14 > 0:51:16The Pope has retired,
0:51:16 > 0:51:21and presumably given up his infallibility at a stroke.
0:51:21 > 0:51:23I didn't watch his sendoff on the television
0:51:23 > 0:51:26but I'm told it was a moving do
0:51:26 > 0:51:30and of course the Archbishop of Canterbury won't be enthroned until
0:51:30 > 0:51:32the end of the month,
0:51:32 > 0:51:37so the worldwide Church is virtually rudderless.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40Not that it will make a jot of difference to the
0:51:40 > 0:51:45preaching of the Gospel or the observance of Lent in our churches.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48It's a salutary lesson for those of us with any kind
0:51:48 > 0:51:53of ecclesiastical responsibility or dignity, that the work of the Gospel
0:51:53 > 0:51:58carries on around us, and in spite of us,
0:51:58 > 0:52:00whether we're here or not.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10The Dioceses Commission has sadly...
0:52:12 > 0:52:16..put tensions between certain people,
0:52:16 > 0:52:22and, worse than that, has distracted us from what we're about.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26One of the things that is true
0:52:26 > 0:52:31is that being a professional churchman
0:52:31 > 0:52:36does take some of the enthusiasm and life out of my faith.
0:52:36 > 0:52:40It struck me recently that seeing the Church from the inside out. .
0:52:43 > 0:52:46..sometimes leaves you with some disillusionment,
0:52:46 > 0:52:52disappointment, which I think as a layperson you're spared.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57Anything in particular?
0:52:59 > 0:53:02I think laypeople are fairly disabused of the Church, of all
0:53:02 > 0:53:05churches as institutions, aren't they, at the moment?
0:53:05 > 0:53:10No, congregations still like to think that clergy are holy people
0:53:10 > 0:53:13with good intentions, and I suppose I know now what
0:53:13 > 0:53:18clergy are like inside because I have to live with myself! But also
0:53:18 > 0:53:23we don't always treat each other and our congregations with...
0:53:24 > 0:53:27..with the love that Jesus urges us to do.
0:53:31 > 0:53:33I'm... And I...
0:53:34 > 0:53:38I think there's a sort of naive hope in me
0:53:38 > 0:53:42that one day we will be closer to the kingdom of heaven
0:53:42 > 0:53:45Well, I'm sure we will one day be closer to the kingdom of heaven
0:53:45 > 0:53:48but I like to think that one day I can live
0:53:48 > 0:53:52a more godly life than I do at the moment.
0:55:07 > 0:55:08We have a nave back!
0:55:10 > 0:55:12Look, we even have an organ back!
0:55:12 > 0:55:18They've taken the dust covers off the organ. It's extraordinary actually.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21And we've also today been granted a premises licence
0:55:21 > 0:55:26by the local authority so it's quite a historic day
0:55:26 > 0:55:28in the life of Wakefield Cathedral.
0:55:28 > 0:55:30You make it sound like a venue
0:55:30 > 0:55:32A venue, that's what we are, a venue for God.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38And the people of God. It is a venue.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41It's a venue for worship, but it's more than that, isn't it,
0:55:41 > 0:55:43because any cathedral, any church...
0:55:45 > 0:55:49..is at some level a gateway where you pass
0:55:49 > 0:55:53from the things of earth to the things of heaven, so we are that.
0:55:53 > 0:55:57But more than that, we are a place where everyone can come.
0:55:57 > 0:55:59We're a place both for the relationship with God
0:55:59 > 0:56:02and the relationship with each other. A place for the people of God.
0:56:09 > 0:56:11Is it heavy?
0:56:11 > 0:56:14It's hollow but it still weighs a ton. It's hollow? Yeah.
0:56:14 > 0:56:16We've made it hollow because it would've been... Oh, the weight
0:56:16 > 0:56:18It would be impossible to lift
0:56:18 > 0:56:20Look at this! Look at that.
0:56:20 > 0:56:22It looks even better now.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29I do like this. It looks great
0:56:29 > 0:56:31There is, isn't there? OK.
0:56:38 > 0:56:41It's extraordinary. It is.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43Oh, it's beautiful.
0:56:43 > 0:56:44It's completely beautiful.
0:56:44 > 0:56:46No, it's completely beautiful.
0:57:14 > 0:57:16As we anoint this altar, may your power, Lord,
0:57:16 > 0:57:21make it holy, to be a visible sign of the mystery of Christ,
0:57:21 > 0:57:26who offered himself for the life of the world. ALL: Amen.
0:58:21 > 0:58:24I've just had someone say to me they feel proud to live in Wakefield.
0:58:24 > 0:58:26I thought that was marvellous really.
0:58:57 > 0:58:59Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd