0:00:21 > 0:00:23This is Westminster Cathedral,
0:00:23 > 0:00:26Britain's biggest Roman Catholic Church.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29Catholic HQ for England and Wales.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32It's known as the Mother Church of the Catholic community
0:00:32 > 0:00:35and one of the paradoxes of the Catholic faith
0:00:35 > 0:00:37is that a church that is so famously patriarchal,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40has such a strong feminine presence.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Not just in the figure of the Virgin Mary,
0:00:42 > 0:00:46but in the fact that it's mainly women who fill its pews.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50I spent the summer of 2011 at the cathedral,
0:00:50 > 0:00:52meeting the women who come and go,
0:00:52 > 0:00:55its staff, volunteers and congregation,
0:00:55 > 0:01:00talking to them about how Catholicism shapes women's lives.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17That clock was fast. It's rapidly losing time.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27BELL RINGS
0:01:27 > 0:01:29That's it.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31They're launched.
0:01:31 > 0:01:32Are you coming out or staying here?
0:01:32 > 0:01:36- I think I'll stay here, if that's OK.- OK, right.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12Sorry, I know it sounds very corny,
0:02:12 > 0:02:14- but do you come here often? - I do. I do, yes.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16We come here every Sunday for mass
0:02:16 > 0:02:19and I try and come to daily mass when I can,
0:02:19 > 0:02:21when it fits in with the kids. But, yeah.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24- This is your parish. - Yes, it is. Yes.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29Why do you feel the need to come every day?
0:02:29 > 0:02:32- What makes you... - Cos I love coming to mass!
0:02:32 > 0:02:35- All right. - Erm... Yeah, I love coming to mass.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38It's part of my...my make up, I guess.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41Are you a born Catholic, a cradle Catholic?
0:02:41 > 0:02:43- Yeah, born and raised Catholic. - Catholic school?
0:02:43 > 0:02:47Catholic school, Catholic family, very strong Catholic identity.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50What's at the heart of that identity for you, being Catholic?
0:02:50 > 0:02:54Erm... Well, I suppose at the heart of it is...
0:02:54 > 0:03:00is a relationship with Christ and...and with Our Lady,
0:03:00 > 0:03:03and that's, that's just how I was raised so...
0:03:03 > 0:03:06For me, coming into a Catholic church is a bit like,
0:03:06 > 0:03:07a bit like coming home.
0:03:07 > 0:03:13So I feel like I've... I feel like I've got Catholic bones!
0:03:24 > 0:03:26I was following Buddhism for ten years.
0:03:26 > 0:03:29And I was quite happy with that,
0:03:29 > 0:03:33but there was just something missing, and...
0:03:33 > 0:03:36When I went to mass, it just felt like the Eucharist
0:03:36 > 0:03:40was such an important part of the faith.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43And receiving the bread, which is supposed to be the body of Christ,
0:03:43 > 0:03:45which I believe is the body of Christ.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48And I just had this feeling of the beauty of the church,
0:03:48 > 0:03:50there was so much truth in it.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53It just guided me here, so I'm really happy
0:03:53 > 0:03:55about becoming a Catholic.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07I'm here because it's my grandma's anniversary of when she died.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10It's something that I do every year.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13My mum puts a mass in every year for my grandma's anniversary.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15I was very close to her.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19And so today, my mum went to mass this morning
0:04:19 > 0:04:23and, cos I'm just round the corner from work, I nip in and go to mass.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26It makes me feel a lot closer with my grandma.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28It gives me time just to think about her
0:04:28 > 0:04:31and it also makes me feel like I'm brought closer to my mum.
0:04:35 > 0:04:40I didn't even tell my parents that I was going to become a Catholic.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44I saw my dad recently and, as we parted, he said,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47"Stay away from those Catholics," with a smile.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51And my mum, I told my mum that I was going to become a Catholic
0:04:51 > 0:04:54and she said, with a big sigh,
0:04:54 > 0:04:58"Well, it's better than a Jehovah's Witness or a Mormon, I suppose."
0:05:06 > 0:05:09BELL RINGS
0:05:09 > 0:05:12Welcome, Father.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15It's not too loud outside today, is it?
0:05:15 > 0:05:19It was very bad the other day, when they were digging the original hole.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25That's one more on its way.
0:05:25 > 0:05:27Fabulous.
0:05:27 > 0:05:29I've got the next one ready.
0:05:29 > 0:05:30We know who the priest is.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32This is like running a train station.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35It is. I always say that to people.
0:05:35 > 0:05:38Just like getting a goods train ready.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40Out the door and in comes the next one.
0:05:40 > 0:05:42How did you get into all this?
0:05:42 > 0:05:45I'm... I'm a volunteer sacristan at my own church.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47And my priest was always saying to me,
0:05:47 > 0:05:49"I'm going to get you promoted one day,
0:05:49 > 0:05:51"to go to the cathedral."
0:05:51 > 0:05:53That was four years ago.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55And it's just gone like that, it's amazing.
0:05:55 > 0:06:00But this place is never dull. The time goes really quickly.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03But of course you're hitting us on a quiet time at the moment.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05It's August and the choir has gone away.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07And a lot of other people have gone away.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09So in our masses, there's no singing
0:06:09 > 0:06:11and they're quite plain and straightforward,
0:06:11 > 0:06:13so it's nice and quiet.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16Is that how you like it?
0:06:16 > 0:06:19I must admit I do like the big occasions when, you know,
0:06:19 > 0:06:21everything is going on.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24Are you all right, Father? Do you want your mass book?
0:06:24 > 0:06:25- Did you see my note?- No.
0:06:25 > 0:06:29There's a little mass booked for the crypt at 12 o'clock.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32But they haven't turned up yet. So do you want to go and do...?
0:06:32 > 0:06:35- Yeah, I'll go down.- Quietly anyway. - Excuse us.- No, it's all right.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38- You're OK with that? - Yes.- All righty.- I'll go down.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Right. But just be aware that they might turn up
0:06:41 > 0:06:44- and start celebrating mass around you.- Thank you.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46All right. You're welcome.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52- That's Father Sorrel, he always does a mass in the crypt.- For who?
0:06:52 > 0:06:55The deceased priests of the diocese.
0:06:55 > 0:06:56So he's on his own down there.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01We just had a priest concelebrating earlier.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04At least he hung his alb on a hanger!
0:07:05 > 0:07:06SHE CHUCKLES
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Priests always turn up to concelebrate
0:07:08 > 0:07:12and they've got nothing with them. No alb, cincture, nothing.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15So we can always provide everything they need.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18They're normally on holiday and they just ring the bell.
0:07:18 > 0:07:20"Can I come in?" they say.
0:07:20 > 0:07:21Are you a cradle Catholic?
0:07:21 > 0:07:24- Pardon.- Where you brought up Catholic?- No, I wasn't. No.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28No, I converted when I was... ooh...about 27, 28.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Just before I got married.
0:07:30 > 0:07:31Did you convert to get married?
0:07:31 > 0:07:35I always felt there was something missing somewhere
0:07:35 > 0:07:37and I could never put my finger on it.
0:07:37 > 0:07:39And, like you do, one rainy afternoon,
0:07:39 > 0:07:42you chat away to your mum about Nanny and all the rest of it.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45She said, "Oh, she was Catholic." I'm going, "Really?"
0:07:45 > 0:07:50Really? And she met and fell in love with this young man,
0:07:50 > 0:07:53got married, etc, and he was Church of England,
0:07:53 > 0:07:56so she just went along and brought the children up
0:07:56 > 0:07:59as Church of England. So that's what my mother was.
0:07:59 > 0:08:04But my mother never wanted to convert to the Catholic faith.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06But that's her choice, that's fair enough.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08Gone now, unfortunately.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10Very sad.
0:08:10 > 0:08:13# Alleluia
0:08:13 > 0:08:18# Alleluia
0:08:18 > 0:08:23# Alleluia. #
0:08:23 > 0:08:26Happy is the blessed Virgin Mary
0:08:26 > 0:08:28who, without dying,
0:08:28 > 0:08:30won the palm of martyrdom,
0:08:30 > 0:08:34beneath the Cross of the Lord.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37# Alleluia
0:08:37 > 0:08:42# Alleluia
0:08:42 > 0:08:46# Alleluia. #
0:08:48 > 0:08:50The Lord be with you.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52ALL: And with your spirit.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55Is this your parish church?
0:08:55 > 0:08:57Yes, it is my parish church.
0:08:57 > 0:09:04And every Catholic is connected to the cathedral of the church.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Were you brought up in England?
0:09:08 > 0:09:10I was brought up in Nigeria.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15My two grandmothers, they gave us that...
0:09:15 > 0:09:17that God is present in the church.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20So the very moment we enter the church,
0:09:20 > 0:09:22we have that instinct in us.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27That God is somewhere watching you. God somewhere looking at you.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31ALL: Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof,
0:09:31 > 0:09:36but only say the word and my soul shall be healed.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38There are some times when I feel I have sinned,
0:09:38 > 0:09:40I've done something very wrong.
0:09:40 > 0:09:46And once I come into the church, I can't help myself but cry.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50I just keep crying, keep crying and keep crying,
0:09:50 > 0:09:55and before I leave that day,
0:09:55 > 0:09:57after the crying and the prayers,
0:09:57 > 0:10:01by the time I leave the church, I feel
0:10:01 > 0:10:04something very heavy has been lifted off me.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08I feel that joy in me, I feel that happiness in me.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11That no man can ever give to you.
0:10:11 > 0:10:15Does that mean everything you experience elsewhere in life,
0:10:15 > 0:10:19friendships, relationships are all inadequate?
0:10:19 > 0:10:21God is the only one.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25When you come into his presence, no matter how depressed you are,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28no matter how happy you are,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32no matter your feeling,
0:10:32 > 0:10:34when you come into his presence
0:10:34 > 0:10:38and you pour out that feeling to him,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41he has a way of putting you together,
0:10:41 > 0:10:46which no man will do for you.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48Are you single?
0:10:48 > 0:10:49Yes.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51Always been single?
0:10:51 > 0:10:53SHE LAUGHS
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Um... Not really...
0:10:56 > 0:10:59I've...not always been single.
0:10:59 > 0:11:04I'm not married yet, but I had a relationship
0:11:04 > 0:11:07that probably didn't go well
0:11:07 > 0:11:11and...now I'm single.
0:11:11 > 0:11:15I want to be married very soon.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I walk quite fast when I'm off on my travels.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54I must do about six miles in a day.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57That's on a quiet day.
0:11:57 > 0:11:59Just up and down, up and down.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05We didn't need any hosts then, the tabernacle is obviously full.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11We didn't use much wine. So that can go over there.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16The plants get the holy water.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23- They do very well, those plants. - What happens to the unused wine?
0:12:23 > 0:12:26That's consumed out on the sanctuary.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29That's not been consecrated, that one there.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32When it's poured into the chalice and prayed over,
0:12:32 > 0:12:34then it's consecrated.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37Cos it's not wine any more, it's blood.
0:12:37 > 0:12:38What is that?
0:12:38 > 0:12:42It's blood then, isn't it? It's the blood of Christ.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45- So it has to be consumed.- Once it's consecrated.- Yes, definitely.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50Right.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53Is that something you understood instinctively
0:12:53 > 0:12:56when you became Catholic? Or did you struggle with that?
0:12:56 > 0:13:00- I think you do, don't you? - What, you struggle?
0:13:00 > 0:13:01I think you do to start with, yes.
0:13:01 > 0:13:07But then, as a Church of England Christian,
0:13:07 > 0:13:08you're taught the same thing.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12Um... Not quite as intensively as with the Catholic faith.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15I think the children have trouble with that, don't they?
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Because, um... when is the first time they have wine?
0:13:18 > 0:13:20It's sacred blood...
0:13:20 > 0:13:22It's got to be their first holy communion, hasn't it?
0:13:22 > 0:13:25- When they're seven. - So they have their lessons then.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28I don't think they totally understand what's happened.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31- What about you? - They just grow into it.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33- Do you understand it? - I accept it, yes.
0:13:33 > 0:13:35Yes, I do. Yes. It's very important.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38So that, when it's been consecrated,
0:13:38 > 0:13:41it's either consumed or it's poured back in the soil.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45Always goes back to the soil, you see?
0:13:45 > 0:13:47What happens in there, is it a treasure chest?
0:13:47 > 0:13:51It is, yes. Do you want a quick look? I don't see why you shouldn't.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53Don't show me the combination.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59It's all our what I call "everyday things" in here.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01Various chalices and...
0:14:04 > 0:14:06..holy water buckets...
0:14:06 > 0:14:10and all sorts of things in here. Wedding registers.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13One or two of the priests' private chalices.
0:14:13 > 0:14:14All sorts of things in here.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17Are you responsible for everything, do you look after everything?
0:14:17 > 0:14:20Yes, yes. We often have to pull stuff out if we've got,
0:14:20 > 0:14:22you know, a big mass on.
0:14:22 > 0:14:27A Chrism Mass, like at Easter, we do a mass for about 700 priests.
0:14:27 > 0:14:28- Amazing.- It is.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32That's what this place is built for, nice big occasions.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20This is still known as the architect's room.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22It's an archive that gets used a lot.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24You'll see from the drawings.
0:15:24 > 0:15:29This one is the full-sized details of the apse of the Lady Chapel.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32Is the Lady Chapel kind of, like, you know...
0:15:32 > 0:15:36A cathedral presumably is built around its altar.
0:15:36 > 0:15:37Oh, the main altar, yes.
0:15:37 > 0:15:41But devotion to Our Lady is a very central part of the...
0:15:41 > 0:15:43of any Catholic church.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47At one point, it was considered to be that which distinguished
0:15:47 > 0:15:50a Catholic church from say, an Anglican,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53except for a High Anglican church.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57And the...this, for instance, that's...
0:15:57 > 0:16:00that's some decorative detail there.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05A Catholic church will show devotion to Mary as the mother of God.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08So, in a sense... In fact, there's plenty of theology
0:16:08 > 0:16:11that says she's a Co-Redemptrix.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13That in fact SHE was, er...
0:16:13 > 0:16:16Without her, there would have been no Jesus.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20Because he wouldn't have been born. She had to give her permission.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22She had to say yes when told by Gabriel
0:16:22 > 0:16:25that she was appointed, as it were, to be the mother of God.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27She had to say yes.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30So there was a little movement in the '60s and '70s,
0:16:30 > 0:16:32possibly before that,
0:16:32 > 0:16:34to say, "Well, Mary, should be, should be..."
0:16:34 > 0:16:37A friend of mine scurrilously said she was fourth Trinity.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40She's the fourth member of the Trinity.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43I didn't think she meant it seriously.
0:16:43 > 0:16:44That's the flooring.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46I'll show you that one, cos that's the layout.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49Is that how you see Mary, then? As a woman who took on a task?
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Oh, an incredibly strong woman.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56As far as she was concerned, whatever had to be done had to be done.
0:16:56 > 0:17:02And the fact that she was so calm under all this.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05There was not, "Hang on a minute, I'll go and think about this."
0:17:05 > 0:17:06But there was just this calm,
0:17:06 > 0:17:09"Let it be done unto me according to the Word."
0:17:09 > 0:17:12This, "Whatever you want to do, I'm your handmaid. Just do it."
0:17:12 > 0:17:17And this is such a strong thing to be,
0:17:17 > 0:17:19and she kept this all the way through.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23I'm confused, maybe it's just because I'm a bloke.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26Why is that a sign of strength? You could say...
0:17:26 > 0:17:29You could interpret that in a completely opposite way.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31As a sign of passivity, "I'll do whatever you want."
0:17:31 > 0:17:33You could indeed, yes.
0:17:33 > 0:17:38But she, she, she...erm...
0:17:38 > 0:17:41She doesn't give out the idea of being a passive woman.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44She would have had a struggle under those circumstances.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47She'd have looked puzzled, she'd have been puzzled,
0:17:47 > 0:17:49she'd have been worried, she'd have been thoughtful,
0:17:49 > 0:17:53she'd have been concerned because if she did this,
0:17:53 > 0:17:55"Oh, I'm going to be pregnant. Is he going to...
0:17:55 > 0:17:59"I don't know if he's going to look after me. What's going to happen?"
0:17:59 > 0:18:01There was no concern about it,
0:18:01 > 0:18:03because she had given her life over to God
0:18:03 > 0:18:07and she had, as far as we are told,
0:18:07 > 0:18:11up to that time, I mean, it's always difficult to know factually.
0:18:11 > 0:18:13There are no facts. It's a question of belief.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16But she had lived a devout life.
0:18:16 > 0:18:23But I do get such a strong feeling of femininity,
0:18:23 > 0:18:28of strong female-ness from Mary.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32And this is one of the attributes of women, I feel,
0:18:32 > 0:18:36that hasn't perhaps been acknowledged all the way
0:18:36 > 0:18:39through the Church by any means.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42Because the functional side has been carried out by the disciples
0:18:42 > 0:18:44and of course Christ was a man.
0:18:44 > 0:18:49But complementing this was this great strength that comes from Mary.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59Blessed art thou amongst women,
0:18:59 > 0:19:02and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06ALL: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners,
0:19:06 > 0:19:08now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13Blessed art thou among women,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19ALL: Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners,
0:19:19 > 0:19:22now and at the hour of our death. Amen.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27ALL: Amen.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04On pilgrimage to Lourdes.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09We might have it in the back. Sometimes we have the forms.
0:20:09 > 0:20:11Travel...
0:20:11 > 0:20:14- I'll write the number down for you.- Oh, lovely. Thank you.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17- Have you been to Lourdes?- No.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21I haven't been to any shrine.
0:20:21 > 0:20:23But hopefully, next year.
0:20:23 > 0:20:25My niece has bought a little place
0:20:25 > 0:20:28that she is doing up in the Pyrenees.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32So I'll go on a day trip. Just to go.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34I haven't even been to Walsingham.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36Were you brought up a Catholic? A cradle Catholic.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38Yes, I am a cradle Catholic, yeah.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41- Did you have a Catholic education as well?- Yes.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43- A convent?- Yes, yes, yes.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45The Butterflies.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47- Butterflies?- Yes, yes.
0:20:47 > 0:20:50- You know, the Sisters of Charity, we call them the Butterflies.- Ah, OK.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52OK.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54Yes, I was.
0:20:54 > 0:20:55Happy memories?
0:20:55 > 0:20:58Very, I loved it. I loved it.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00But we didn't send our daughters to convent school.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03We sent them to Catholic school but not convent.
0:21:03 > 0:21:04For any particular reason?
0:21:04 > 0:21:08Er... I just kind of wanted them to have a broader...
0:21:08 > 0:21:12a broader view of life, you know?
0:21:12 > 0:21:15- I felt we were somewhat sheltered. - You weren't encouraged to question.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18No, not at all. No, no, no. No.
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Blind obedience. And blind faith.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26No, we weren't, we weren't. No. No. But it's very different.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29When you were at school, it must have been very different.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32I mean, you can question, argue and they want you to now, don't they?
0:21:32 > 0:21:34Yeah.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38No, it was very...
0:21:38 > 0:21:41But we were indoctrinated, definitely.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43We were told, "You're up there on a pedestal
0:21:43 > 0:21:47"and you don't let anybody knock you off it," you know. "Stay pure."
0:21:47 > 0:21:49- For being Catholic?- Yes.
0:21:49 > 0:21:54And we were... Well, we prayed for our separated brethren
0:21:54 > 0:21:56in my youth.
0:21:56 > 0:21:57Your separated brethren?
0:21:57 > 0:22:00That's what we prayed for. Our separated brethren.
0:22:00 > 0:22:04In other words, those who weren't following us.
0:22:04 > 0:22:07But when I say pedestal, it was the sisters who would say,
0:22:07 > 0:22:09you know, that you're pure.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11That's really what they were implying.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13And that you're up on that pedestal
0:22:13 > 0:22:15and it's only the temptations in life
0:22:15 > 0:22:18that could knock you off that pedestal.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20So you need to keep yourself pure and holy.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22This was about sex, something like it?
0:22:22 > 0:22:25Yes, of course it was. Everything was about it.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28It wasn't referred to, just wasn't referred to.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30So what happened when you got to that age
0:22:30 > 0:22:34when you'd start having boyfriends? Were you just kept away from it?
0:22:34 > 0:22:35Well, yes, yes, kind of.
0:22:35 > 0:22:39But I think it's when you leave school, really, you know?
0:22:39 > 0:22:41You hit the student years
0:22:41 > 0:22:44then you realise you've led a very sheltered life.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47Some go wild and some can temper it a little bit.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48And so many...
0:22:48 > 0:22:51I feel, of my era
0:22:51 > 0:22:54got married simply because they wanted to sleep together.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57And just have sex, that was the only way.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00And if they did,
0:23:00 > 0:23:03if they did have sex outside marriage, it was really kept quiet.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05You would never openly say you'd lived with somebody
0:23:05 > 0:23:10or spent the night with somebody. You just wouldn't do it.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13So it must have affected us all.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16All of those who went through that form
0:23:16 > 0:23:22of rigid Catholicism that we were taught in the '40s and '50s.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24I think so.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26Definitely, definitely.
0:24:03 > 0:24:04I think that needs a clean one.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07Do you ever go to confession?
0:24:07 > 0:24:09I do, yes.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12Somewhere where nobody knows me.
0:24:14 > 0:24:15Do you find it helpful?
0:24:15 > 0:24:19I do. Yes, it's good to get your conscience clear.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22Say that you are really sorry.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27But I don't go anywhere that I know the priests.
0:24:27 > 0:24:31It is better to be anonymous.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33What are these, are they stoles?
0:24:33 > 0:24:38Yes, the priest always wears that when he's hearing confession.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40You have to wash them, do you?
0:24:40 > 0:24:42Well, I send them to the dry cleaners, yeah.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45I'm just having a look at the back of their neck.
0:24:45 > 0:24:50No, cos it gets all black and sweaty.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52Well, you know, people perspire.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55- Even priests.- They do.
0:24:55 > 0:24:56They do. They're human as well.
0:25:00 > 0:25:02Lots of people come here, don't they?
0:25:02 > 0:25:06Oh, they do. It's very, very popular.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09- Why do you think that is? - Because Our Lady means a lot.
0:25:09 > 0:25:14You see how her foot is nice and shiny and clean
0:25:14 > 0:25:16cos everybody touches it.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18All the statues have got clean feet.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24- Do you do that?- I do, yes.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Well, she's a woman and a mum.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32And we've all got the same problems.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41And she understands when you're having trouble.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46So connecting with her makes life easier, does it?
0:25:46 > 0:25:48Oh, it does, yes.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51You feel there's someone there watching out for you.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53Definitely.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59How are you doing, Dora? Do you need any more boxes? Oh! Good.
0:26:00 > 0:26:02Through Baptism and Confirmation,
0:26:02 > 0:26:06make him your faithful follower and a witness to your Gospel.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08Lord, hear us.
0:26:08 > 0:26:09Lord, graciously hear us.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20THEY MOUTH
0:26:50 > 0:26:53What's your connection with the cathedral?
0:26:53 > 0:26:56I think I've been coming here since about 1963.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59I've been through three, four cardinals,
0:26:59 > 0:27:01and about ten...ten administrators.
0:27:01 > 0:27:06- Are you here every day?- Almost. - Were you brought up Catholic? Are you a cradle Catholic?
0:27:06 > 0:27:09I was cradle Catholic but my father was an Irish Catholic,
0:27:09 > 0:27:12which meant you go to mass just after Gospel, that suffices.
0:27:12 > 0:27:16It was only when I was 20, my brother was diagnosed with cancer,
0:27:16 > 0:27:19the first thing I did was went to pray.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23And since then, that's why I'm so staunch, it helped through a difficult time,
0:27:23 > 0:27:25cos David was the nearest brother to me.
0:27:25 > 0:27:27It was like tearing half of you out.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29And, of course, the family went through
0:27:29 > 0:27:31a traumatic experience as well,
0:27:31 > 0:27:35so ever since then, I've been grateful for the gift I have.
0:27:35 > 0:27:36And I've never wavered.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39But I think faith is one of the important things.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43Health is important. I mean, I had cancer at one point.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46About ten years ago. And I said, sort of said... I didn't panic.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48"Well, if I'm going to survive, I will."
0:27:48 > 0:27:51I didn't worry about it. People said, "How can you be so calm?"
0:27:51 > 0:27:53I said, "Well, it's a fact of life.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55"If I'm meant to survive, then I will."
0:27:55 > 0:27:56And I did.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58So I think, in the worst situations,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01if you can turn to prayer, it does help you through.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04So that's why I'm very grateful for the gift of faith.
0:28:04 > 0:28:06Because life has many difficulties.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09And I think without prayer I could never cope.
0:28:09 > 0:28:13It's a long story now, but when my brother David was born,
0:28:13 > 0:28:16my mother already had five children.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19She went to the priest and said, "I have five children.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22"The last child is sickly, please can I use contraception?"
0:28:22 > 0:28:24And the priest said, "No, you should go and multiply."
0:28:24 > 0:28:27So my mother had three more children she couldn't cope with.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30And I think we felt the brunt of that.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33When David died, she said, "I'm sorry, I neglected you all."
0:28:33 > 0:28:35It's an awful thing to put on somebody,
0:28:35 > 0:28:37to have children she couldn't cope with.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39- And then feel guilty afterwards. - Did that make you feel
0:28:39 > 0:28:42there's something wrong in Catholic teaching?
0:28:42 > 0:28:45Yes, I think so. People shouldn't be forced to have babies.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47I think, if I was in my mother's state, I would say to God,
0:28:47 > 0:28:51"I'm sorry, God. I've had five. I honestly can't cope with more."
0:28:51 > 0:28:54I think it was wrong to burden somebody with that on their conscience.
0:28:54 > 0:28:57To feel guilty the rest of her days, having three more children.
0:28:57 > 0:29:01Cos I think it's a case of using your own sense with God.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04If you think it's wrong in yourself, tell God rather than a priest,
0:29:04 > 0:29:06who hasn't the influence in your...
0:29:06 > 0:29:10I'm not condemning the priests, because they have to do what they say.
0:29:10 > 0:29:12But I think if you've got... attuned with God,
0:29:12 > 0:29:14and you feel it's right with him, then go ahead.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16Because it's making three children
0:29:16 > 0:29:19that are really unbalanced in a way.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21And that's why we missed out on something.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24But by the grace of God, we got through all right.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54SIREN BLARES
0:29:57 > 0:30:00You haven't got any particular connection with the cathedral?
0:30:00 > 0:30:04It is, I suppose, my local parish church,
0:30:04 > 0:30:07if one can demote it to a church.
0:30:07 > 0:30:12I'm within the catchment area. It would be my parish church.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Actually, when I was a medical student
0:30:15 > 0:30:18at the old Westminster Hospital,
0:30:18 > 0:30:23we used to get special seats at the big masses,
0:30:23 > 0:30:25like Christmas Eve and things like that.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29- And you used to attend?- Oh, yes.
0:30:29 > 0:30:34In the balcony they had spaces for nurses and medical students.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37- Do you ever attend mass?- I do.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41I feel a great attachment to the Church,
0:30:41 > 0:30:42and would call myself Catholic,
0:30:42 > 0:30:48but then I really could not uphold various of the teachings at all,
0:30:48 > 0:30:53particularly things like contraception,
0:30:53 > 0:30:59and much more recently, the various edicts on AIDS
0:30:59 > 0:31:02and the management of AIDS in Africa,
0:31:02 > 0:31:06which I very strongly disagree with.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09I find it very, very difficult
0:31:09 > 0:31:15to come to terms with the recent paedophilia problems.
0:31:15 > 0:31:19You reach a point when you know that's not acceptable
0:31:19 > 0:31:21to the Church but you don't want to leave it.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25The only way you can accept it is by trying to differentiate
0:31:25 > 0:31:29from the actual faith and the actual institution
0:31:29 > 0:31:35and the actual people in it, which are not all really synonymous.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39What's the Catholic bit of you?
0:31:39 > 0:31:41Is it belief in God?
0:31:41 > 0:31:43Um...
0:31:43 > 0:31:50I think the belief in Christianity, yes.
0:31:50 > 0:31:57God and Christianity. And in the moral grounding that it gives you,
0:31:57 > 0:32:00which is very...
0:32:00 > 0:32:06Not that one wants to shake it off, but it's very ingrained, almost.
0:32:06 > 0:32:14And that very prominent sense of "do as you would be done by."
0:32:15 > 0:32:22A moral code that's very useful in the chaos and turmoil of life.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08How often do you come to the cathedral?
0:33:08 > 0:33:11I come to the cathedral most weekdays to light a candle,
0:33:11 > 0:33:14and Saturday and Sunday, if I'm in London,
0:33:14 > 0:33:16I go to mass at 8:00 in the morning.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18Why are you lighting the candle?
0:33:18 > 0:33:22I have family with cancer and I've always done it anyway
0:33:22 > 0:33:25and my grandchildren don't live near, so I just...
0:33:25 > 0:33:28A way of talking to God. I don't say it in prayers.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32I say, "Please look after" and things like that.
0:33:32 > 0:33:34I have six grandchildren and two daughters,
0:33:34 > 0:33:36and I'm one of a family of five,
0:33:36 > 0:33:40so we have quite a few problems and quite a lot of happy things.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44Just a way of talking to someone, to be perfectly honest.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46My husband died 11 years ago
0:33:46 > 0:33:51and I find a great deal of comfort and solace coming to church.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54I was brought up a Catholic, you see?
0:33:54 > 0:33:59- Have you always practised?- Not when I was living with my second husband.
0:34:01 > 0:34:05When I was young I thought you had to follow it to the last letter,
0:34:05 > 0:34:08and as you get older, you realise nobody does.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12The priests don't. The bishops don't.
0:34:12 > 0:34:17Some of the popes were downright evil. Who made those rules?
0:34:17 > 0:34:22There's now talk of the Pope saying that women can practise birth control,
0:34:22 > 0:34:26which I always did any way, so that's why I'm not a good Catholic,
0:34:26 > 0:34:30and I never followed in that blind way, ever. Not even when I was young.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33Did that leave you feeling you weren't a good Catholic?
0:34:33 > 0:34:35Yeah. I'm not a good Catholic.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38If you ask me what I am, I'm a Catholic,
0:34:38 > 0:34:42but I'm not a good Catholic. I'm definitely not a devout Catholic.
0:34:42 > 0:34:48- When you come to communion, do you say communion?- No, I don't.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50I couldn't take communion without going to confession.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52You've been to confession?
0:34:52 > 0:34:55I did up until I was about 30.
0:34:55 > 0:34:59Now I wouldn't dream of going to confession and communion.
0:34:59 > 0:35:06The main reason being that my second husband, I married him...
0:35:06 > 0:35:08My first husband left me
0:35:08 > 0:35:11and he'd been gone eight years and I divorced him and married Ken.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14So according to the Church, I was never married to Ken
0:35:14 > 0:35:16and I could never, ever deny that.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18I had seven wonderful years with Ken.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21I didn't feel I was doing anything wrong at all.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23So I can't now go to confession and say,
0:35:23 > 0:35:26"Seven years I was living in sin with Ken
0:35:26 > 0:35:29"because we hadn't been married in the Church."
0:35:29 > 0:35:32Then you look back to the old days
0:35:32 > 0:35:35and they used to let the stars suddenly have this little thing
0:35:35 > 0:35:39that they'd absolve their marriage so they could get married in Church.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42It seemed to me, if you were wealthy enough and well-known enough,
0:35:42 > 0:35:44you could bend the rules.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47- Does that leave you angry? - Not angry, just a bit cross.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50Not terribly angry.
0:35:50 > 0:35:52I just thought, "You do what you want."
0:35:52 > 0:35:57You have to make your own decisions in life about everything.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59That's something a lot of women have expressed,
0:35:59 > 0:36:01they have to get an annulment.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Yes, and that's a nonsense, isn't it?
0:36:04 > 0:36:07You slept together whether you annul it or not.
0:36:07 > 0:36:09You've slept together.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11Either you see that as a sin or you don't and I don't,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13to be perfectly honest.
0:36:13 > 0:36:18I don't believe in promiscuity, but that's up to people themselves, too.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21I've only had two husbands and that's it.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23I wasn't sorry for either one of them.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26I love them both, I've been a very fortunate person.
0:36:26 > 0:36:28If you've been a good person, if there is a God, he'll know,
0:36:28 > 0:36:31and if there isn't, it doesn't matter much, does it?
0:36:31 > 0:36:34Does the thought of a heaven comfort you in any way?
0:36:34 > 0:36:38I find it hard to believe in. I just find it hard to believe in.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41My sister says, "It'll be dead boring!"
0:36:41 > 0:36:42She said, "I'd rather go below.
0:36:42 > 0:36:46"They might have parties and drink and what have you."
0:36:46 > 0:36:49But I really can't envisage it, that's the truth of the matter.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51I really can't.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53I don't know if you can, but I can't.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04The body of Christ...
0:37:07 > 0:37:09The body of Christ...
0:37:13 > 0:37:14The body of Christ...
0:37:17 > 0:37:18The body of Christ...
0:37:21 > 0:37:22The body of Christ...
0:37:27 > 0:37:29Why are you here today?
0:37:29 > 0:37:34We're here to see Billy Elliot. It's a day trip for both of us.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37While we were passing through I said, "I'd like to go
0:37:37 > 0:37:41"and look at this church because I think it's a Catholic church."
0:37:41 > 0:37:46I'm drawn in with the atmosphere and all the bits around you.
0:37:46 > 0:37:47The paintings I find...
0:37:47 > 0:37:51Always when I go on holiday I look around Catholic...
0:37:51 > 0:37:53Any churches that are lovely.
0:37:53 > 0:37:56And I thought I'd take Daisy to see it as well. I didn't force her.
0:37:56 > 0:38:00- She said, "Oh, shall we go inside?" So we did, didn't we?- Yeah.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02- That's why.- Are you Catholic?
0:38:02 > 0:38:06Yes, but I'm not a practising Catholic any more.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09I can pray at home whenever I like.
0:38:09 > 0:38:13I can go to any church as I only believe there's one God any way.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17I was brought up a Catholic, went to a Catholic school.
0:38:17 > 0:38:22- That doesn't mean to say you're going to carry on.- What happened?
0:38:22 > 0:38:23Why did you stop?
0:38:23 > 0:38:27My brother died, and my parents, especially my mum,
0:38:27 > 0:38:28didn't get over it.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30And the Church and the priests
0:38:30 > 0:38:34just didn't answer the questions correctly that I...thought,
0:38:34 > 0:38:38"Well, why take somebody away that is so loved?"
0:38:38 > 0:38:40And they didn't give me right answers,
0:38:40 > 0:38:43so I sort of started to feel a bit bad.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47It's hard to explain to people,
0:38:47 > 0:38:52because in your heart you know there's still something there,
0:38:52 > 0:38:57like when I go to churches like this, I get quite emotional.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00I always feel there's a... I'm in a...
0:39:00 > 0:39:05a bit of a limbo, that I feel...I want to do something,
0:39:05 > 0:39:09but I'm not sure what track I want to go down.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12I don't think I'll ever go to what we...I was brought up,
0:39:12 > 0:39:14because I think that was...
0:39:14 > 0:39:17it was a thing, "You've got to do it."
0:39:17 > 0:39:20Like you had to go to church on different days.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23And you daren't not go.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26Until you got a bit older and then, I sort of told Daisy,
0:39:26 > 0:39:30I sort of went in to show my face and then disappeared out.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34Which sometimes I used to think,
0:39:34 > 0:39:37"Oh, if my mum found out or my dad found out..."
0:39:37 > 0:39:39But perhaps they did know.
0:39:39 > 0:39:41You know.
0:39:52 > 0:39:54So there.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58For vespers tonight, I will put these out in the chapel.
0:40:02 > 0:40:04Don't let me forget that,
0:40:04 > 0:40:06because they've got to be alight all day tomorrow,
0:40:06 > 0:40:09- and they won't last. - They stay alight all day because...
0:40:09 > 0:40:12They do, because it's the Assumption, yeah,
0:40:12 > 0:40:14and it's the Feast of Our Lady.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16So we leave a light all day.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18Look at this, people putting flowers in.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20It's nice, innit?
0:40:20 > 0:40:24And that's...the Assumption is the day that she went into heaven.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26You celebrate her death, her burial
0:40:26 > 0:40:30and when she ascends to heaven, yes, all in the same day, yes.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33So there.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35I thought she didn't die.
0:40:35 > 0:40:37Well...
0:40:39 > 0:40:43She must have died in some respect, mustn't she?
0:40:44 > 0:40:47To have risen and gone up to heaven, yes,
0:40:47 > 0:40:49or she wouldn't have a burial, would she?
0:40:49 > 0:40:53How did Father Swavek put it? Let's have a look, it's in the newsletter.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58Because all the priests take it in turns to write the front of these.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01Ch-ch-ch-ch-ch...
0:41:01 > 0:41:05"It commemorates Our Lady's death and burial, her rising to life,
0:41:05 > 0:41:07"her pass over from this world
0:41:07 > 0:41:10"and then her assumption into heaven."
0:41:10 > 0:41:14There we are, "Amidst the rejoicing of all the angels and saints."
0:41:14 > 0:41:16There you are.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18That's come from the boss.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26Look at this.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29Fabulous, aren't they? That's my favourite one.
0:41:29 > 0:41:30Oh!
0:41:32 > 0:41:34Dresses for the girls.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41And what are these ones?
0:41:41 > 0:41:45These are two very old and rather gorgeous chasubles,
0:41:45 > 0:41:48which, as it's a solemnity tomorrow,
0:41:48 > 0:41:50we're getting out all the nice things.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54And this is a coat, what we call a Marian coat.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57The blue again on the white for Mary.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59That's rather gorgeous.
0:41:59 > 0:42:04- Who wears that tomorrow? The priest? - That's the priest that says prayers.
0:42:04 > 0:42:08- Is that very old?- Oh, I should think that's about 100, at least.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11Most things around here are.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13- Yeah.- Beautiful.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15Rather gorgeous but very heavy.
0:42:15 > 0:42:19OK... Thank you.
0:42:19 > 0:42:20- OK?- Thank you.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23There are vestments stored everywhere.
0:42:30 > 0:42:34It is quiet at the moment, unusually quiet.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36- And why is that? Do you know? - I don't know.
0:42:36 > 0:42:39Because the schools are back, and everybody's back at work,
0:42:39 > 0:42:42so it should be... it should be quite busy.
0:42:42 > 0:42:45And usually, once we open the front door, the main door,
0:42:45 > 0:42:49- they all start coming in. - Right. Yeah, it does feel...
0:42:49 > 0:42:53It draws... Yeah, it draws people in, yes.
0:42:53 > 0:42:56How long have you been doing it? I can't remember.
0:42:56 > 0:43:01About...six, I think, five, five, six years. Mmm.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05- Erm... Yes, five or six. - Why did you start?
0:43:05 > 0:43:09Because this was my...little haven. I used to come here.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12When I first came seven, eight years ago,
0:43:12 > 0:43:15I used to come, walk from Battersea to the cathedral
0:43:15 > 0:43:17and find a nice little spot and just sit there.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20- When you first came to London? - To London, yeah,
0:43:20 > 0:43:22because it's the first time I'd lived on my own,
0:43:22 > 0:43:26and I just used to come and sit here just after my husband had left me.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29And I came over from Waterford to be here,
0:43:29 > 0:43:31with my daughters.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34I came to live here only because of my daughters,
0:43:34 > 0:43:36because they both live here.
0:43:36 > 0:43:40Were you surprised to find yourself coming to the cathedral,
0:43:40 > 0:43:43or in that time of difficulty, this was the first place to come?
0:43:43 > 0:43:45Yes, yeah, no, no, I... I...
0:43:45 > 0:43:48No, I purposely came here, purposely came here,
0:43:48 > 0:43:52because I hadn't been for a long time, years and years and years,
0:43:52 > 0:43:54but I knew it had made a big impression on me,
0:43:54 > 0:43:57so I just came, and I knew that it would be open.
0:43:57 > 0:44:01That's why I started coming and getting involved.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04- Did you speak to the priests, then? - No.
0:44:04 > 0:44:07I didn't speak to anybody. No.
0:44:07 > 0:44:08I just came and sat.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11I could just come and sit and nobody bothered me.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15I could just reflect and then go home and feel a little bit refreshed.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18I know you can sit in the park and reflect and whatnot,
0:44:18 > 0:44:22but somehow here it's conducive to it
0:44:22 > 0:44:26for me to put my... get my train of thought going,
0:44:26 > 0:44:28just thinking about life and...
0:44:28 > 0:44:31I mean, not wallowing, just sitting...
0:44:31 > 0:44:33Praying?
0:44:33 > 0:44:35Not praying as such,
0:44:35 > 0:44:39because now I believe that you really just have to sit
0:44:39 > 0:44:43and try to empty your mind, and that's really...
0:44:43 > 0:44:46That's what the fathers in the desert did.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48They didn't have to go to mass or do anything,
0:44:48 > 0:44:52just sat in the desert and meditated, and that's what I think is...
0:44:52 > 0:44:54That's when you get really near to God, I think.
0:44:54 > 0:44:58The more time you take...out for silence,
0:44:58 > 0:45:00You know, when you can push it out
0:45:00 > 0:45:03and just... just sit quietly and meditate.
0:45:03 > 0:45:07And not meditate on something, just empty your mind if you can.
0:45:07 > 0:45:09Empty your mind.
0:45:09 > 0:45:11Well, that's what I try to do.
0:46:08 > 0:46:10I don't know which saints these are.
0:46:10 > 0:46:12There's quite a lot of different ones in there.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15- Can you actually see the bits? - Yes, yes.
0:46:15 > 0:46:18That's where they live, in there. The relics, yes.
0:46:18 > 0:46:19Those are the relics.
0:46:19 > 0:46:23All bones and hair and various relics from the saints.
0:46:24 > 0:46:26OK?
0:46:28 > 0:46:30There's six of them normally,
0:46:30 > 0:46:33but the other four are out on the high altar.
0:46:34 > 0:46:38Yeah, that's what they look like inside.
0:46:38 > 0:46:40So do you know what we're looking at?
0:46:40 > 0:46:42The earthly remains, I suppose.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45I don't know if the rest of them are elsewhere.
0:46:45 > 0:46:48Every church has got a relic of some sort.
0:46:48 > 0:46:50That says Mary Magdalene, that one.
0:46:52 > 0:46:55Some have got whole bodies, haven't they? Heads...
0:46:57 > 0:47:01- But it's a big Catholic tradition, isn't it?- It is, yes, yes.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06It's three trips to put these all on the altar.
0:47:06 > 0:47:08There we go.
0:47:15 > 0:47:20- Are they there for all the feast days?- Yes, yes, the very big ones.
0:47:20 > 0:47:24- And is this a favourite of your feast days, Mary?- Yes.
0:47:26 > 0:47:30Did you kind of instantly take to the whole relic business
0:47:30 > 0:47:34when you became a Catholic? Some people find it strange.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37No, I think it takes a bit of getting used to, doesn't it?
0:47:37 > 0:47:39It takes a bit of getting used to.
0:47:39 > 0:47:42How do you kind of understand it?
0:47:42 > 0:47:45I don't know, it's just nice to remember these people
0:47:45 > 0:47:49and think that you've got a part of them that's with you somehow.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51But there we are.
0:47:52 > 0:47:55Jesus is the one that's with me, you know, he's...
0:47:55 > 0:47:59He's always around when I need him. Right.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02I'm going to leave them covered up till the mass starts.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13SIREN WAILS
0:48:16 > 0:48:19How often do you come to the cathedral?
0:48:19 > 0:48:23Well, I've only just started to come, because I haven't had the...
0:48:23 > 0:48:27I haven't had the...confidence to come all the way from Harrow.
0:48:27 > 0:48:31But now I'm going to try and come at least two or three times a week,
0:48:31 > 0:48:33because I find this place is...
0:48:33 > 0:48:35I've been in enormous palaces
0:48:35 > 0:48:39and churches and things all over the world.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42And this is the only big building where, as soon as you walk in,
0:48:42 > 0:48:44you feel...
0:48:44 > 0:48:46I kind of... It makes me want to cry.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49You feel a kind of warmth and a love,
0:48:49 > 0:48:53and it's amazing feeling this place, and it is so beautiful.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55You can't help but look at it
0:48:55 > 0:48:58and think...you know, just how great it is.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04I-I don't think I would have survived after the stroke
0:49:04 > 0:49:07- without...the Church.- Really?
0:49:07 > 0:49:12Because...I was a lapsed Catholic
0:49:12 > 0:49:14for 60 years.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16And...I went...
0:49:16 > 0:49:21I went back to the Church on December 15th last year,
0:49:21 > 0:49:25and my whole life changed back to the security
0:49:25 > 0:49:30and the feeling of... of relaxation and calm
0:49:30 > 0:49:31that I had lost with the stroke.
0:49:31 > 0:49:35Because with the stroke I felt like ET, you know, nothing was real.
0:49:35 > 0:49:38Why did you lapse from Catholicism?
0:49:38 > 0:49:40Do you know, that's an interesting question.
0:49:40 > 0:49:42I don't really know. I think it was...
0:49:42 > 0:49:45I think it was, you know, the world in general,
0:49:45 > 0:49:47and I was travelling a lot.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50And there was such a lot of temptations then.
0:49:50 > 0:49:54Now I don't know how young people manage.
0:49:54 > 0:49:57And I used to feel...
0:49:58 > 0:50:00It was very strange.
0:50:00 > 0:50:03I didn't... I didn't feel guilty.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07I should have felt... "I should be going to mass today,"
0:50:07 > 0:50:11but I mean, I missed the wonderful church music and things like that,
0:50:11 > 0:50:14but I lived for four years in Rome
0:50:14 > 0:50:16and never went to mass once when I was there.
0:50:16 > 0:50:18What were you doing? What were you...?
0:50:18 > 0:50:21I-I was in the fashion world.
0:50:23 > 0:50:28So I was doing some, er... you know, fashion work.
0:50:30 > 0:50:31But...
0:50:31 > 0:50:34- And then you came back to England, did you?- What?
0:50:34 > 0:50:38- You came back to England after that, did you?- Yes.
0:50:38 > 0:50:43But...it's really weird, when I sit and pray now,
0:50:43 > 0:50:46I don't know how I survived without it...
0:50:46 > 0:50:50for 40 years. I don't know how I survived.
0:50:50 > 0:50:52More than 40 years, 60 years.
0:50:52 > 0:50:54But you were happy without it, were you?
0:50:54 > 0:50:57You've had a happy 40, 60 years without Catholicism?
0:50:57 > 0:50:59Well, it was... When I look...
0:50:59 > 0:51:03You see, hindsight is the only... is the only true eyesight.
0:51:03 > 0:51:07With hindsight, I don't think I was. I was always...
0:51:07 > 0:51:10I was always looking for what was coming next.
0:51:10 > 0:51:12I wasn't enjoying the moment.
0:51:12 > 0:51:14I think that was the biggest difference.
0:51:14 > 0:51:16And now you're back,
0:51:16 > 0:51:20is the figure of Our Lady... significant, a part of that return,
0:51:20 > 0:51:24or is it the figure of Christ hanging above us here?
0:51:24 > 0:51:28No, I talk to Our Lady, it's the intercession bit.
0:51:28 > 0:51:32I'm not worthy after my chequered background
0:51:32 > 0:51:34to talk directly to God,
0:51:34 > 0:51:38so, dear, Blessed Lady, will you intercede for me?
0:51:38 > 0:51:40But you said to me a moment ago
0:51:40 > 0:51:42that you didn't feel guilty about being lapsed.
0:51:42 > 0:51:47I didn't when it was going on. I have guilt complexes now.
0:51:47 > 0:51:51I've got guilt about things that I did to other people
0:51:51 > 0:51:57and...the years I wasted that I... I feel the years...
0:51:57 > 0:52:01Because the seven months since I went back to the Church
0:52:01 > 0:52:04have been so glorious,
0:52:04 > 0:52:06I can't help but think
0:52:06 > 0:52:09that the 60 years would have been very different
0:52:09 > 0:52:11if I had been practising.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30I think it was a Jesuit who said,
0:52:30 > 0:52:32"Give me a child until they're seven,
0:52:32 > 0:52:33"they'll be a Catholic for life."
0:52:33 > 0:52:36Thank goodness I was a Catholic at seven
0:52:36 > 0:52:39because I have something at the end of my life.
0:52:45 > 0:52:51And I certainly couldn't have come to this wonderful place
0:52:51 > 0:52:54which is beautiful, this place, it is so lovely.
0:53:28 > 0:53:32When do you actually go to mass? You're so busy running around.
0:53:32 > 0:53:3711:30 on a Sunday morning, is my favourite mass time.
0:53:37 > 0:53:40Is that an important moment in the week for you?
0:53:40 > 0:53:41Yes, it is, yes.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47It's the one time...mind you, no, I don't sit there
0:53:47 > 0:53:50and nobody comes up to me and says, "Rose, have you got a key?
0:53:50 > 0:53:53"Rose, have you got this, Rose, can I can have that?"
0:53:53 > 0:53:55Rose, something else, you know.
0:53:55 > 0:53:59I'm on call there as well, but there we are.
0:54:00 > 0:54:02This is nice, isn't it?
0:54:02 > 0:54:06Since you converted to Catholicism, which is many years ago now, isn't it?
0:54:06 > 0:54:09It is, don't say it like that!
0:54:09 > 0:54:11I'm not going to ask you how many.
0:54:11 > 0:54:14It's about 25, actually, it would have been
0:54:14 > 0:54:19my 25th wedding anniversary a couple of months ago.
0:54:21 > 0:54:22You're divorced?
0:54:22 > 0:54:24I am, now, yes.
0:54:24 > 0:54:26When did that happen?
0:54:26 > 0:54:27About four years ago.
0:54:30 > 0:54:33And am I right in thinking you converted to be married,
0:54:33 > 0:54:38is that right? Or you converted at the time of marriage?
0:54:39 > 0:54:41Yes, I thought, "If I'm going to get married
0:54:41 > 0:54:47"I want to have a nuptial mass and do it as a Catholic."
0:54:47 > 0:54:51How have you found being divorced in the Catholic church,
0:54:51 > 0:54:53is that a tricky journey?
0:54:56 > 0:55:00No, no, because people have been very caring
0:55:00 > 0:55:06and people I didn't know very well have been very supportive
0:55:06 > 0:55:09and very caring
0:55:09 > 0:55:14and my priest was really fantastic, he's always there when I needed him.
0:55:15 > 0:55:19He'd always say, "Ring me in the middle of the night if you wake up
0:55:19 > 0:55:21"and need to talk to somebody."
0:55:21 > 0:55:25He was very, very good. But, anyway, let's not dwell on that,
0:55:25 > 0:55:27I don't really want to think about that.
0:55:27 > 0:55:29OK.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32Oh, it's got a little pocket and everything here, look.
0:55:32 > 0:55:36It's got a handbag.
0:55:41 > 0:55:42I've got a final question.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45Go on.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48As you get older, does faith become more or less important
0:55:48 > 0:55:49in your life, do you think?
0:55:49 > 0:55:54I think it depends what happens to you in your life.
0:55:54 > 0:55:57I think elderly people, who are getting near to their death,
0:55:57 > 0:56:02perhaps start thinking about it more as they're going to meet their maker at some stage.
0:56:02 > 0:56:07I think it depends what happens in your life, doesn't it? Yeah.
0:56:07 > 0:56:09It's not the same for everybody.
0:56:13 > 0:56:17Does it get more important in your life?
0:56:17 > 0:56:22I think I went through a stage I hit rock bottom in my life.
0:56:24 > 0:56:26I've got this strange idea
0:56:26 > 0:56:29that by giving me a job here He's taken me and said,
0:56:29 > 0:56:32"Rose, I'll put you in head office,
0:56:32 > 0:56:34"I can hold your hand and keep an eye on you."
0:56:34 > 0:56:36I think that's rather nice.
0:56:36 > 0:56:39So that's why I'm here, so there we are.
0:56:39 > 0:56:43As I say, it's different for different people.
0:56:52 > 0:56:54Why are you at mass tonight?
0:56:54 > 0:56:56Because it's a Feast Day, isn't it?
0:56:58 > 0:57:00- Shouldn't you be in blue? - In blue? Why blue?
0:57:00 > 0:57:05- Cos it's a Feast Day. - That's for nuns, isn't it, blue?
0:57:05 > 0:57:08No, if you're out on Sanctuary on a Feast Day
0:57:08 > 0:57:12you have to have a cassock on.
0:57:24 > 0:57:28BELL RINGS
0:57:39 > 0:57:43Sometimes people like to see Our Lady
0:57:43 > 0:57:47as being so very meek and mild.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50"I am the handmaid of the Lord" taken to extremes.
0:57:53 > 0:57:58Others react against this and try to envisage her as a steely,
0:57:58 > 0:58:02Middle Eastern woman with barely a trace of femininity.
0:58:04 > 0:58:08Each of us will have our own image of Our Lady
0:58:08 > 0:58:12and I hope that there is room in that image
0:58:12 > 0:58:15for meekness and strength.
0:58:17 > 0:58:21Right, there we are.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25Just a case of clearing up and going home now.
0:58:25 > 0:58:29'Ladies and gentlemen, Westminster Cathedral is now closing.
0:58:29 > 0:58:33'Please make your way to the main exit at the back of the cathedral.
0:58:33 > 0:58:35'Thank you and good night.'
0:59:05 > 0:59:08Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd