0:00:06 > 0:00:08So I've come to the Etihad Stadium tonight,
0:00:08 > 0:00:10because there's a meeting of the WIFs -
0:00:10 > 0:00:14Women In Football - an organisation that's been going about five years.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17They've never courted publicity, never had any publicity.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20I've no idea what is up for debate, or what's on the agenda,
0:00:20 > 0:00:23or really why they exist, so I think, for that very reason,
0:00:23 > 0:00:27and the fact they operate under the radar, it's worth us taking a look.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44'Course they don't. The game's gone mad!'
0:00:45 > 0:00:48- I wasn't surprised. - I wasn't surprised.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50I don't think any women in football was shocked by that.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52It didn't sound like it was the end of the world.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00- '..complaining about sexism? - Yeah!- Do me a favour, love!'
0:01:00 > 0:01:04And, actually, it was the real derogatory tone
0:01:04 > 0:01:07that really annoyed me. And I think anybody who judges
0:01:07 > 0:01:10anybody's talent purely on gender, that's fundamentally wrong.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14It was the sexism scandal that made headlines around the world...
0:01:14 > 0:01:18The two Sky Sports presenters caught making sexist remarks
0:01:18 > 0:01:20about a female match official have apologised.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24..and led to the exit of two of football's highest profile presenters.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28Andy Gray said he was devastated at losing a job he loved.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30I wasn't as shocked as the public seemed to be.
0:01:30 > 0:01:35People think that maybe the public are behind the curve. They're not.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39If I'm honest, I think I've probably experienced worse over the years.
0:01:39 > 0:01:43Who's got the confidence to stand up when a well-known TV presenter
0:01:43 > 0:01:47says to you, in front of 20 people, "How many Premier League footballers have you slept with?"
0:01:47 > 0:01:50But it can sometimes be intimidating
0:01:50 > 0:01:52to speak out if you're a woman in a man's world.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55- No-one wants to be the whistleblower. - For the past six months,
0:01:55 > 0:01:58I've been speaking to some of the most powerful women in the game.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01This old boy put his glasses on, and looked at me, "Oh, yes! You're that woman."
0:02:01 > 0:02:03Hearing their experiences
0:02:03 > 0:02:06and trying to tell the real story about sexism in football.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09You ain't got a dick, but you have got great big balls.
0:02:09 > 0:02:10In January of last year,
0:02:10 > 0:02:14a number of off-air comments made by Sky Sports presenters
0:02:14 > 0:02:18Andy Gray and Richard Keys brought the subject of sexism to the fore.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23I genuinely didn't think...
0:02:23 > 0:02:27"Ooh, Sky is a bad place or those people are bad people."
0:02:27 > 0:02:32I just thought, "That's what happens and they've got caught out."
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Honestly, my first reaction was, "There but for the grace of God."
0:02:35 > 0:02:38And I defy any broadcaster
0:02:38 > 0:02:43to go, "We have never said anything." Not sexist or racist,
0:02:43 > 0:02:48but just something that could come back and catch us out.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Charlotte? Just tuck that in?
0:02:54 > 0:02:55ANDY LAUGHS
0:02:57 > 0:03:00I think the Charlotte Jackson piece, particularly,
0:03:00 > 0:03:02had an undertow of real sinister...
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Charlotte, I don't know her,
0:03:04 > 0:03:08but I know that she is a very capable and able woman.
0:03:08 > 0:03:12It was the fact that she felt unable to respond.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18- I apologised on the Sunday. - 'He was bleating on about the fact'
0:03:18 > 0:03:21that he tried to phone me to apologise to me, and I should be
0:03:21 > 0:03:25sitting around waiting for his call, because I don't have enough to do.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28And the fact that I didn't take his call was somehow my fault.
0:03:28 > 0:03:34I couldn't believe there was such a hoo-ha about it, because that's...
0:03:34 > 0:03:37That's "banter", that's what happens.
0:03:37 > 0:03:41When you heard, or you saw the story break about Richard Keys and Andy Gray,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44and the various incidents that came out from Sky, what were your thoughts on that?
0:03:46 > 0:03:50Er, well, I just, er... just it was, um...
0:03:50 > 0:03:53You know, I'd just seen it, um...
0:03:53 > 0:03:56HE LAUGHS Good question, Gabby.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58It is a good question, um,
0:03:58 > 0:04:01you know, I think the thing for people like me is, you know,
0:04:01 > 0:04:04in this climate we live in,
0:04:04 > 0:04:08even now you panic at what to say, not because it's a woman or a man,
0:04:08 > 0:04:12because you're just scared of saying the wrong thing and I think that's how football is.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16I think it was lucky for us that they were caught on camera,
0:04:16 > 0:04:18because I think things changed now
0:04:18 > 0:04:22and I think people are a lot more aware of what they're saying and...
0:04:22 > 0:04:27society are a lot more aware of maybe how it is in our industry.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30Neither Richard Keys or Andy Gray
0:04:30 > 0:04:33choose to take part in the making of this programme,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35but Richard Keys was not the first person to make
0:04:35 > 0:04:37unwelcome remarks about Karren Brady.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40She's been at boardroom level
0:04:40 > 0:04:44since 1993, when she became the first female managing director
0:04:44 > 0:04:47of a football club at the age of just 23.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51So, turning up to my first press conference, with shoulder pads
0:04:51 > 0:04:55and earrings, sort of big hair and giving this sort of really
0:04:55 > 0:04:59professional presentation to the masses of press that were interested
0:04:59 > 0:05:03in this young woman and when I finished, I said, "Any questions?"
0:05:03 > 0:05:05And this hand went up and I said, "Yes, sir?"
0:05:05 > 0:05:08He said, "What are your vital statistics?"
0:05:08 > 0:05:10- LAUGHTER - And I thought, "Oh...
0:05:10 > 0:05:13"Here we go! That's the only thing they're interested in."
0:05:13 > 0:05:16She's hard, she's tough, she's the managing director of Birmingham City.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20Please welcome Karren Brady. CHEERING
0:05:20 > 0:05:21'Everybody's got an anecdote'
0:05:21 > 0:05:24about being mistaken for a WAG or a tea lady
0:05:24 > 0:05:28or some crude innuendo. That's fine. Most people can laugh those off.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31FANS CHANT
0:05:34 > 0:05:38Anna Kessel hears a lot about the issues women face,
0:05:38 > 0:05:42not only because she writes about football for The Guardian and The Observer,
0:05:42 > 0:05:47but also because she's a co-founder of the Women In Football group.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50We've had stories of much, much more serious abuses.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Physical abuse at work, sexual harassment, discrimination.
0:05:54 > 0:05:55Really upsetting stuff.
0:05:55 > 0:05:59This is the first time I've actually openly spoken about it.
0:05:59 > 0:06:02The gentleman in question sort of looked at me and said,
0:06:02 > 0:06:06"You can't come in, no women allowed here." I thought he was joking,
0:06:06 > 0:06:09particularly because it was so timely after the Keys and Gray,
0:06:09 > 0:06:11we're talking two or three days later, I think.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14And I really thought he was joking, so kind of I laughed and kind of
0:06:14 > 0:06:17gave him a little elbow, "Thanks very much."
0:06:17 > 0:06:20And he said, "No, I'm serious, no women allowed. Get out."
0:06:22 > 0:06:24Vicky Kloss is one of two women
0:06:24 > 0:06:27in Manchester City's six-person executive team.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30Last year, she was the subject of physical abuse.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32'"You've let my male colleague in.'
0:06:32 > 0:06:35"I'm his boss. You've let him and not me.
0:06:35 > 0:06:39And he said, "Well, he can go too," and we were physically thrown out.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42I was physically pushed up against a wall and thrown out.
0:06:42 > 0:06:46- So you didn't get down to...? - As the players and manager came off
0:06:46 > 0:06:49and trooped into the dressing room, myself and head of media relations,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52both of us were on the other side of the door, not in the tunnel,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55not being where we needed to be to do our job.
0:06:57 > 0:07:00If thousands of fans at a game shout racist abuse,
0:07:00 > 0:07:03there is a law to protect that person that's being abused.
0:07:03 > 0:07:09A TV female reporter who thousands of fans were shouting "Slut" at her,
0:07:09 > 0:07:12there's no legal recourse for that.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15I think, "Oh, God, there's a book in there somewhere. Maybe a film."
0:07:15 > 0:07:19I think, if you heard most of the stories that couldn't be told,
0:07:19 > 0:07:21I think it would shock a lot of people.
0:07:21 > 0:07:26COMMENTATOR: 'We have a line lady today. Sian Massey.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29'Derby captain, Robbie Savage, has had a go at her twice now
0:07:29 > 0:07:35'for missing what he considers have been offside decisions.'
0:07:35 > 0:07:38And I thought, "Wow, you know,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41"she must be brave," cos running the line in front of a hostile crowd,
0:07:41 > 0:07:44you know, as a woman, must be an intimidating place
0:07:44 > 0:07:48and fair play to her for sticking her neck out there and doing it.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51People have felt a need to, um...
0:07:51 > 0:07:57highlight maybe that Sian Massey has been the assistant referee at a game
0:07:57 > 0:08:00and then highlighted, virtually within the same breath,
0:08:00 > 0:08:02"And she did very well."
0:08:02 > 0:08:06I used to see her in her outfit and I just had a go at the outfit.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09- I didn't care if it was a man or a woman...- That's just you.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11You just have a go at what people are wearing.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14Yeah, it was just looking across, I didn't think,
0:08:14 > 0:08:17- "That's Sian Massey, I'm going to curb my, my, um..."- Behaviour?
0:08:17 > 0:08:20"..behaviour towards her, cos she's a woman." I give a volley of abuse,
0:08:20 > 0:08:23like I would if it was a man, because that was her job.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28Like other referee's assistants, who are in
0:08:28 > 0:08:31their first full year of officiating at the top level, Sian Massey
0:08:31 > 0:08:35isn't allowed to speak to the media about any of her experiences.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37It's noticeable that the majority of the women
0:08:37 > 0:08:40who've spoken openly to me have been in the game quite a while.
0:08:40 > 0:08:45Vikki Orvice became the first female staff football writer on a tabloid
0:08:45 > 0:08:48when she was appointed at The Sun in the early 90s.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51I think, only twice did a manager
0:08:51 > 0:08:56during a press conference say something
0:08:56 > 0:09:00designed to humiliate me or...
0:09:00 > 0:09:03What was that? Do you remember?
0:09:03 > 0:09:06- One was really unrepeatable. - Really?- Yeah.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09- In front of other journalists?- Yeah.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11Sexism's an interesting one,
0:09:11 > 0:09:14because it's almost as if it's accepted in football,
0:09:14 > 0:09:16whereas homophobia now isn't.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19If somebody's sexist in football,
0:09:19 > 0:09:22it's like, "That's football, they're old school, they can't help it, it's OK,"
0:09:22 > 0:09:27whereas if somebody's racist in football, that's no longer accepted.
0:09:27 > 0:09:32And the manager said, "She probably likes men talking dirty to her."
0:09:32 > 0:09:36And we were in a really tiny, tiny sort of press room and, again,
0:09:36 > 0:09:40I remember just shutting up and getting on with it.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44But my point that I made was not, in my column that was referred to,
0:09:44 > 0:09:49was not about "sexism" per se, it was about the way that,
0:09:49 > 0:09:52you know, "What's a woman doing here? What does a woman know?"
0:09:52 > 0:09:57Sort of that sort of dinosaur mentality that I was referring to.
0:09:57 > 0:10:02- That you still encountered to write about it last year. - Yeah, even 20 years in
0:10:02 > 0:10:05and still, um... you know, I'm a woman.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10'Yes, we're women and I guess we do stand out
0:10:10 > 0:10:12'when we're outnumbered by men,
0:10:12 > 0:10:17'but it shouldn't really mean we're treated any differently, should it?'
0:10:17 > 0:10:19I was pregnant with you, but nobody knew.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22But why don't you have a fat tummy?
0:10:22 > 0:10:25'I had my children six years ago and I was desperate to be pregnant,'
0:10:25 > 0:10:29I had to go through IVF to get pregnant, so, when I got pregnant,
0:10:29 > 0:10:32I was most scared about telling my new boss I was pregnant
0:10:32 > 0:10:35and his reaction was I can only say disappointment.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38He looked shocked and said, "I thought you were going to tell me that."
0:10:38 > 0:10:42I think that that's what makes women bosses so much, um,
0:10:42 > 0:10:44so much easier to work for,
0:10:44 > 0:10:47because, actually, the world doesn't stop when you have a baby.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50I think people found it quite, um,
0:10:50 > 0:10:54interesting that I was going to have babies and was working in football.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57- That seems to be the gist of a lot of...- It must have been tiring?
0:10:57 > 0:11:01- Do you think it was?- Yeah. - It was, actually, Lois, it was really tiring.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05It was tiring working and carrying two babies, I'll tell you,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08but you went to some interesting football matches.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13Various things came flooding back to me about a Champions League round
0:11:13 > 0:11:16and a large section of the Manchester United fans
0:11:16 > 0:11:18started singing, "Get your tits out."
0:11:18 > 0:11:21And we just thought we'd just carrying on watching the game
0:11:21 > 0:11:24and pretend that the glass is so thick we can't hear them.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27And so, even though they were the thick ones,
0:11:27 > 0:11:30and so we carried on watching the game and thinking
0:11:30 > 0:11:33that Sir Bobby, bless him, who was probably about 72 at the time,
0:11:33 > 0:11:35wasn't hearing this, cos he never said anything.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37So we were watching the game and, eventually,
0:11:37 > 0:11:39Sir Bobby just stands up, pulls his top up...
0:11:39 > 0:11:41- LAUGHTER - ..and starts doing that.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45And Ali and I almost died.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49'I think it was about this time, sitting here and sharing stories
0:11:49 > 0:11:53'with other women in football that they obviously related to,
0:11:53 > 0:11:56'that I decided that this should not just be a programme
0:11:56 > 0:12:00'that reflected a problem, it should try and encourage a change.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04'and, suddenly, I felt a great sense of relief.'
0:12:09 > 0:12:13When I started presenting at Sky in 1996,
0:12:13 > 0:12:17Delia Smith had just become a director at Norwich City and, within a year,
0:12:17 > 0:12:22Wendy Toms became the first female match official in the Premier League.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Nowadays, women account for a quarter of the crowd at matches
0:12:25 > 0:12:27and a third of armchair fans.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30But getting to the top still isn't easy.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Just ask the most powerful woman in football - Karen Espelund.
0:12:34 > 0:12:39And don't hesitate to ask. I mean, you are advising a lot of people.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42It is a lifetime opportunity for these young players...
0:12:42 > 0:12:48Last year, Karen became the first woman to make it onto UEFA's executive committee.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52But when she first started playing the game, it wasn't even legal.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54'The Norwegian FA, they...'
0:12:54 > 0:12:57officially accepted women's football back in '76
0:12:57 > 0:13:01and I'm born in '61, so the first 15 years of my life,
0:13:01 > 0:13:03football was not allowed for women and girls to play.
0:13:06 > 0:13:11At UEFA, Karen is responsible for both the men's and women's game.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15I work very hard the first years, because you had to prove your competence,
0:13:15 > 0:13:18or at least I put that pressure on myself, but you had to also.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22- I must admit that I still play football, so...- Oh, really?
0:13:22 > 0:13:28Yes, I'm a league champion in the veterans league back in my home town last season.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31Here in Cardiff, she's checking on progress ahead of
0:13:31 > 0:13:36Wales hosting next year's women's under-19s European Championships.
0:13:36 > 0:13:39I've been the one woman alone in the ExCo of Norway,
0:13:39 > 0:13:43I've been there together with three others, and I've seen the difference.
0:13:44 > 0:13:47For example, when I came here to West Ham,
0:13:47 > 0:13:50there were no senior women. And the first thing I did
0:13:50 > 0:13:52was bring three senior people into the business
0:13:52 > 0:13:54and they happened to all be women
0:13:54 > 0:13:56and that created, I think, a much more balanced
0:13:56 > 0:14:00and diverse environment, different people, different perspectives,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03- different ideas, challenges. - What do women bring to a board?
0:14:03 > 0:14:05They bring a different perspective.
0:14:05 > 0:14:07The truth is that men and women are different
0:14:07 > 0:14:09and we should celebrate those differences.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11- Nice to see you.- Nice to see you.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14- This is my daughter, who is Karen as well.- Hello, Karen.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17'Our association has taken on many more women recently.'
0:14:17 > 0:14:20As far as I'm concerned, they are absolutely some of the best people
0:14:20 > 0:14:23that we have employed at the Football Association of Wales.
0:14:23 > 0:14:26- You play football?- Sometimes. - Sometimes, that's good.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30How important was that to you, then, to drive them into those positions?
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Very important to me. You know, I take the view,
0:14:33 > 0:14:36if you're the first woman anything, whatever that is,
0:14:36 > 0:14:38it's your responsibility,
0:14:38 > 0:14:41a door's been held open for you and I saw it
0:14:41 > 0:14:45as my responsibility to hold that door open for all the other women.
0:14:45 > 0:14:50- Do you want Daddy's job one day? - Yeah.- Do you think you'll do a better job than Daddy?- Yeah.
0:14:50 > 0:14:51'Sexism, to me,'
0:14:51 > 0:14:55in football, it's like it's the final discriminatory act that is,
0:14:55 > 0:14:59- not only exists, but is deemed acceptable to exist.- Is tolerated?
0:14:59 > 0:15:00Yeah, you could, quite happily,
0:15:00 > 0:15:03without any action being taken against you, say to someone,
0:15:03 > 0:15:05"What do you know? You're a woman."
0:15:05 > 0:15:09I'm one of those people with thick skin. It doesn't really bother me.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12It gets more difficult as your kids get older and they can
0:15:12 > 0:15:14read Twitter and horrible things that people write about you.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18That's the sort of... That is a disappointment, really.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20My son says, "Well, you're not that fat, Mum!"
0:15:20 > 0:15:23- SHE LAUGHS - Which is always quite sweet.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25They considered me as, I don't know,
0:15:25 > 0:15:29the wife of the president or the mistress or the daughter, whatever.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33You didn't become considered as a football person yourself.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Dealing with star performers can be
0:15:37 > 0:15:40par for the course if you work in football.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43But is handling the big names purely a job for the men?
0:15:44 > 0:15:50Jo Tongue is in charge of Radio 5 Live's 606 fan's phone-in show.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53So how long do you reckon it'll be once you've got him?
0:15:53 > 0:15:56How long will you be to get here? 'We have a slight problem
0:15:56 > 0:16:00'in that the car that was picking Robbie up from Anfield'
0:16:00 > 0:16:02has had a car crash - Robbie wasn't in the car -
0:16:02 > 0:16:05so the car was unable to pick him up,
0:16:05 > 0:16:07so we've got an hour and 15 minutes until we're on air.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10I'm not panicking yet I'm across everything here.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13When he gets here, we'll just have a kind of catch up.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15'Jo Tongue to me, um...'
0:16:15 > 0:16:17It might sound like I'm being sarcastic,
0:16:17 > 0:16:20but like a font of all footballing knowledge,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23like from Premier league to Conference,
0:16:23 > 0:16:27there's always something in her conversation about football
0:16:27 > 0:16:30with Jo that she'll tell you that you didn't know.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32'..a goal to West Brom!'
0:16:32 > 0:16:35Cool. What number?
0:16:35 > 0:16:36Brilliant! So is he in your car?
0:16:36 > 0:16:40OK, I'll leave Wigan booed off at half-time and full-time.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42You know West Brom have just scored? Perfect!
0:16:42 > 0:16:44Will you drop him off before you park?
0:16:46 > 0:16:49SHE LAUGHS What a nightmare!
0:16:51 > 0:16:53'She probably knows more about football than me.'
0:16:53 > 0:16:56Very assertive, she knows what she wants and, you know,
0:16:56 > 0:16:59if you're not on the same piece of paper as her,
0:16:59 > 0:17:01she'll dismiss you.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06She's probably one of the best bosses I've worked for, no question.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09She's one of the lads around the table,
0:17:09 > 0:17:12as you can see how I am with them all, you know.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16Jo's not a man or a woman to me, she's Jo.
0:17:16 > 0:17:21As a woman, I can... I don't think I can get away with more with you,
0:17:21 > 0:17:26but we can have an argument and it will never get aggressive.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29Fair point. I've probably taken more off you, cos you are a woman.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33'When I did leave the Beeb for a while, one of senior management'
0:17:33 > 0:17:36said to me off the record on the phone, "I often thought,
0:17:36 > 0:17:39"if you'd have cut your hair and dyed you hair dark,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42"you'd have got a lot further in this place," and that's stayed with me
0:17:42 > 0:17:45and I don't know if I consciously act differently, cos I'm now dark
0:17:45 > 0:17:47or if people do treat me differently.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49I am on this Woman In Football board, but for three years,
0:17:49 > 0:17:52we've kept it quiet, so it's just like a support network.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55So there's things that happened when I was younger that I would never accept now,
0:17:55 > 0:17:59and I don't think they'd talk to me like that now, cos I'm their boss,
0:17:59 > 0:18:03but at the time, I didn't really think of it, I just thought, "That's just the way it is."
0:18:03 > 0:18:06So me and Gabby were talking. Gabby said she'd walked into an office
0:18:06 > 0:18:09and someone said, "How many Premier League footballers have you slept with?"
0:18:09 > 0:18:12- And that's not acceptable.- Yeah. - But at the time,
0:18:12 > 0:18:14I would've thought, "Oh, it's just banter, it's fine.
0:18:14 > 0:18:19- "What did I expect? Get on with it." - Football banter, with men, it is like no other work place.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22- Really?- I don't think so. - See, I think it's the same as a building site.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24- No.- My friends are architects and work with builders.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27- Football's ruthless.- Do you think?
0:18:27 > 0:18:30- The dressing room.- Really? - I'm not sure, I've never worked on a building site.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33But do you adapt yourself, because now...?
0:18:33 > 0:18:36- Is it easier working in athletics to football?- Oh, yeah.
0:18:36 > 0:18:42I mean, I remember, I was chairman of the Athletics Writers' Association...
0:18:42 > 0:18:45I mean, again, the Football Writers' Association have never...
0:18:45 > 0:18:49I remember one of the first meetings I covered,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52being tapped on the shoulder and saying, "If you want any help..."
0:18:52 > 0:18:54and I honestly thought they were just doing this,
0:18:54 > 0:18:58- cos they were going to stab me in the back.- Hmm.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02Football still, it is still male-dominated
0:19:02 > 0:19:08and I just think it's a lot of men still see it as their space,
0:19:08 > 0:19:11it's the last bastion, it's what they've got left.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14MEN SHOUT
0:19:15 > 0:19:18COACH SHOUTS ORDERS
0:19:20 > 0:19:23'Football is a male bastion, let's not beat about the bush.'
0:19:23 > 0:19:28It is a male environment and there will be male prejudices.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32Stereotypes can be hard to break down.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38BOYS LAUGH
0:19:38 > 0:19:40< Welcome to my world.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45Jackie Bass feels well supported working for the Football League
0:19:45 > 0:19:48as their Regional Club Partnerships manager.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52She loves the responsibility of dealing with over 40 clubs,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56but Jackie admits it was a lot harder than previous jobs.
0:19:56 > 0:20:00It would be a difficult move to go back to club football now.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02Why? What's club football like?
0:20:02 > 0:20:04Er, it was difficult for me.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08There was a spell about five years ago when I was there, when there was
0:20:08 > 0:20:11this flurry of a lot of women being locked out from tunnels,
0:20:11 > 0:20:15um, training grounds, pitch-side access,
0:20:15 > 0:20:19I've been on the other side of locked doors while press briefings went on,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22with a security guard mortifyingly looking at me
0:20:22 > 0:20:24and shaking his head and apologising,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27because it was the club rule that no women were allowed down there.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29I've seen signs saying, "No women beyond this point."
0:20:29 > 0:20:33I've missed press conferences, cos I can't get to where I should be,
0:20:33 > 0:20:37er, it would take a lot for me to go back to that, I think.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41I think, as more and more women come into it, the prejudices break down and break down.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44As I say, I'm sure no player that deals with Karren Brady at West Ham
0:20:44 > 0:20:47would think twice about dealing with her
0:20:47 > 0:20:50in other way than they would with a male chief executive.
0:20:50 > 0:20:53I don't consider myself to be an expert and I would never
0:20:53 > 0:20:56call the manager and say, "Use the diamond formation..."
0:20:56 > 0:20:59- LAUGHTER - "4-4-2, I think, this week."
0:20:59 > 0:21:01They'd all think I'd gone mad.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05There were people as well who'd make a big play when I first started of,
0:21:05 > 0:21:07"Well, she's never played the game."
0:21:07 > 0:21:10And I remember a player overhearing this
0:21:10 > 0:21:13and just laughing and pointing up to the press box and saying,
0:21:13 > 0:21:18"Well, they're all in the peak of fitness and athleticism!"
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Some managers haven't played the game as well at top level,
0:21:21 > 0:21:24so if you want to take that argument further, some of the top managers
0:21:24 > 0:21:27have never played at any real level of football.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29But it's interesting, isn't it?
0:21:29 > 0:21:32Some of my male counterparts, really, they're frustrated managers.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36- Hmm.- They go on the team bus in their team tracksuit,
0:21:36 > 0:21:40and all of that, and I sit there and laugh and smile.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43I say, "This is the expectation at the start of the season.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45"This is the budget. I'll help you get the players in.
0:21:45 > 0:21:49"The rest is your expertise and you've got to use it."
0:21:52 > 0:21:56To commentate on Match Of The Day is a dream job for millions.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59Five years ago, the news broke that someone new
0:21:59 > 0:22:02was getting a chance to join this illustrious club.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04I've been to this ground many times before,
0:22:04 > 0:22:07and I'd done plenty of matches here, reporting and commentary.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10But it was very different, because this was TV,
0:22:10 > 0:22:13so it wasn't the case of coming into the press room for a chat
0:22:13 > 0:22:16until I go out and do my preview and then do the game.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19I came to this press room... Oh, hello! Sorry.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22- This press room is now an office. - Are you lost?- Sorry, no!
0:22:22 > 0:22:25No, this was the press room that Jacqui came in on her first day.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27You're welcome to come in, if you like.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31- It's just a quick one.- Yeah, fine. - Can I just do a quick...?- OK.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34- Sorry it's a bit of a mess. - No, don't worry about that.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37We're just telling a story of an event, that's all.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40That day, I was very self-conscious and I saw a very friendly face
0:22:40 > 0:22:43in Nigel Adderley, who was here for 5 Live.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47And we just got chatting and he just said, "What on earth is going on?"
0:22:47 > 0:22:53I remember when I was at Fulham, I think, Jacqui Oatley was the first woman presenter or commentator
0:22:53 > 0:22:57on a Match Of The Day game and there was a lot of talk at the time.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00I remember listening to members of the general public ringing up about
0:23:00 > 0:23:04why it's the most horrendous thing since mankind, you know, evolved.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07They thought there was a shelf with a lot of blonde dolly birds on
0:23:07 > 0:23:11and that they'd plucked me off it and plonked me into the commentary box.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15- I think some people genuinely thought that.- 'It was unfair coverage.'
0:23:15 > 0:23:18Coverage that wouldn't be given to a male commentator
0:23:18 > 0:23:22coming to Match Of The Day for the first time, who'd be given a chance
0:23:22 > 0:23:25to build his way up the Match Of The Day batting order
0:23:25 > 0:23:29and I think Jacqui, therefore, had to go in and hit the ground running
0:23:29 > 0:23:32and I really didn't think that was fair how it came out.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Jacqui did very well. There was a lot of talk about it outside.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39But she did well. We presented her with a Fulham shirt with her name.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41So I'd got the team news in the tunnel
0:23:41 > 0:23:44and I'd picked up a nice T-shirt for myself.
0:23:44 > 0:23:46- LAUGHTER A new Fulham shirt. - Comments from the crowd?
0:23:46 > 0:23:50I do remember somebody coming over and asking for my autograph...
0:23:50 > 0:23:52- I know you get that all the time, Gab!- No, no!
0:23:52 > 0:23:57- But on a match day, when you've got your clipboard...- Yeah.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59ANNOUNCEMENT BEGINS
0:23:59 > 0:24:03I was just really uncomfortable with it, just because...
0:24:03 > 0:24:06it wasn't supposed to be like... THEY LAUGH
0:24:06 > 0:24:10And after all the publicity this week, the moment has finally come
0:24:10 > 0:24:13for a little piece of history on Match Of The Day.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16For the first time ever, Lawrie Sanchez took charge
0:24:16 > 0:24:19of his Fulham side at a game at Craven Cottage.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23Also making her debut - commentator Jacqui Oatley.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26'One of the most important games at the Cottage for years.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29'Only a win will do for Fulham, with two of their remaining...'
0:24:29 > 0:24:32When I first started on the radio, I was considered to be something
0:24:32 > 0:24:37of a commentary freak, but I think it's essential to be different.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39Why be bland? Why be sameish all the time?
0:24:39 > 0:24:44And the fact that her voice was a female voice shouldn't count against her.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46'The referee's Graham Poll.'
0:24:46 > 0:24:50And I kind of peered over and I saw him -
0:24:50 > 0:24:53and I'd never met him before - and he looked up and he went, "Good luck!"
0:24:53 > 0:24:56I just remember thinking, "This is very strange."
0:24:56 > 0:25:00I think what Jacqui could've done with was a second female
0:25:00 > 0:25:03come in along to commentate somewhere on the networks.
0:25:03 > 0:25:08It must be very, very difficult banging your head against the door
0:25:08 > 0:25:11of a virtual male excluded domain.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14'Lawrie Sanchez makes four changes in the defenders...'
0:25:14 > 0:25:15One of my over-riding memories
0:25:15 > 0:25:20of being up here and commentating was, from quite early on in the game,
0:25:20 > 0:25:24having this strong pain in my stomach and that came from the fact
0:25:24 > 0:25:28that I didn't eat for three days, I couldn't eat anything.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31My stomach felt like it was in a knot, couldn't take anything in.
0:25:31 > 0:25:37I remember actually a friend came over with a bag of shopping, brought me some food! How sad!
0:25:37 > 0:25:40I felt like I couldn't leave the house, because I was trying
0:25:40 > 0:25:43to get some prep done, but now, my life's completely different.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45I'm really lucky, I'm really happy at home
0:25:45 > 0:25:48and I have a gorgeous little baby as well.
0:25:48 > 0:25:52She becomes a priority, but I'm lucky that I can combine work and that
0:25:52 > 0:25:54and maybe you do refocus slightly
0:25:54 > 0:25:57and know what's important in life, but, um...
0:25:57 > 0:26:00She'll certainly have that to look back on when she's older, won't she?
0:26:00 > 0:26:04- What her mum did, you know. - She's going to be so embarrassed! - Blazing a trail. She's not.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07- She's going to be incredibly proud, I think.- Yeah, maybe.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13- I love this ground.- It's brilliant, isn't it?- You chose a great ground.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16Originally, I was supposed to be at Watford v Manchester City
0:26:16 > 0:26:18and they changed it, for some reason. Anyway...
0:26:18 > 0:26:21Fast forward to Monday morning, the back page had a picture of me
0:26:21 > 0:26:25with a microphone saying something like, "Play it again, Jacqui.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28"Oatley needs a replay." Something like that.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31And had a story about how I hadn't done the commentary live
0:26:31 > 0:26:33or it hadn't been very good or something,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37therefore I'd driven back to Television Centre, written a script
0:26:37 > 0:26:40and redubbed the whole eight minutes, which was just simply not true,
0:26:40 > 0:26:43but that's something I found really difficult to cope with,
0:26:43 > 0:26:46because there was a lot said and written which was completely wrong.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50'Jacqui continues to enjoy a successful career
0:26:50 > 0:26:54'and she's appeared several more times on Match Of The Day, but I can't help but wonder
0:26:54 > 0:26:58'whether her journey in commentary shouldn't have been a lot smoother.'
0:26:58 > 0:27:01I remember a game at Birmingham and the crowd were signing
0:27:01 > 0:27:04"Karren Brady's a whore" and my late grandmother was there
0:27:04 > 0:27:06and she said, "What are they saying?"
0:27:06 > 0:27:10I said, "They're saying, 'Karren Brady is 24, Nan.' Don't worry."
0:27:10 > 0:27:12And she went, "Oh, that's very nice."
0:27:12 > 0:27:15- So...- She's from the same school of hearing as my mum...- Yeah!
0:27:15 > 0:27:17..who wondered why the crowd wanted to see my teeth.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21- LAUGHTER - Yes, yes.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23'During the making of this documentary, I've obviously'
0:27:23 > 0:27:26spoken to a lot of women and some of them have told us stories
0:27:26 > 0:27:30we couldn't bring to camera, because of the potential repercussions.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32One lady has told us a story so harrowing
0:27:32 > 0:27:36that we're protecting her identity so that you can hear those claims.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Basically, I was being hit on by someone very high up at the club.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43By night, he would proposition me by text. After I'd ignore or decline,
0:27:43 > 0:27:47he'd punish me the next day by banning me from another part of the ground.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49One of the players called to tell me that the manager
0:27:49 > 0:27:52had them in one by one asking them if they'd ever slept with me.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55They were looking for anything they could get.
0:27:55 > 0:27:56I still regret dropping the case,
0:27:56 > 0:27:59cos I felt so strongly about how I'd been treated, but by now,
0:27:59 > 0:28:03I was £2,000 down and weighing about 6½ stone from stress.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05I didn't have the fight in me
0:28:05 > 0:28:07after six months of hell I'd had at the club.
0:28:07 > 0:28:11Thankfully, the woman you heard from there has gone on to have
0:28:11 > 0:28:14a successful career in football. But it was disturbing
0:28:14 > 0:28:17to hear her story and to think there might be more women out there
0:28:17 > 0:28:21who are too afraid to speak out, too afraid to tell the truth.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27When people said things to me in the past that,
0:28:27 > 0:28:31well, I knew at the time, as a girl in her early twenties,
0:28:31 > 0:28:35I knew that wasn't right, you know, the overtly sexual comments.
0:28:35 > 0:28:39I just didn't want to be the person that looked prudish or complained.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42No-one wants to be the whistleblower or the girl
0:28:42 > 0:28:45that told a story that means you'll never work in football again,
0:28:45 > 0:28:47because I want to work in football forever.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50Maybe vicious is too strong a word,
0:28:50 > 0:28:53but it was, um, the most testosterone-filled environment
0:28:53 > 0:28:56I've worked in before or since
0:28:56 > 0:28:59and there were things that happened, or things that were said to me,
0:28:59 > 0:29:03that I now regret not acting on, but I was 22 years old and I think,
0:29:03 > 0:29:06at that stage in your life, who's got the confidence to stand up
0:29:06 > 0:29:10when, for example, a well-known TV presenter says to you in front of a room of 20 people,
0:29:10 > 0:29:13"How many Premier League footballers have you slept with?"
0:29:13 > 0:29:16Who's got the confidence to say, "I'm reporting you
0:29:16 > 0:29:20"for what is clearly an aggressive and overtly sexist statement."
0:29:20 > 0:29:24'Maybe I'm from that generation where you just get on with it and,'
0:29:24 > 0:29:26you know, the old phrase,
0:29:26 > 0:29:29"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen,"
0:29:29 > 0:29:33and it is noticeable now, when I see the sort of girls coming through,
0:29:33 > 0:29:37that they don't...that they are very, very, "I'm not having that."
0:29:37 > 0:29:41Absolutely, they should complain, because how do you change anything
0:29:41 > 0:29:43if you don't tell the people right at the top
0:29:43 > 0:29:46what's happening to you and what you expect to be done as a result of it?
0:29:46 > 0:29:50If there is something fundamentally wrong within that organisation,
0:29:50 > 0:29:53if your immediate boss doesn't want to know,
0:29:53 > 0:29:56tell the shareholders, tell the media, tell the press.
0:29:56 > 0:29:59You've got get change to happen.
0:29:59 > 0:30:03- Don't be scared. Come on.- You're not going to bite me, are you?
0:30:03 > 0:30:08The biggest compliment that a player could pay me would say,
0:30:08 > 0:30:10"She's one of the lads,"
0:30:10 > 0:30:14because I've spent 12 years trying to fit in and be accepted,
0:30:14 > 0:30:18so to say, "We don't actually see you as a woman," that's...
0:30:18 > 0:30:22I'm happy then, because that means I've cracked it,
0:30:22 > 0:30:23I've done what I set out to do.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25- Definitely.- I think so.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28If we can get you unofficially signed up and you can be our man
0:30:28 > 0:30:32at the training ground with your ear to the ground...
0:30:32 > 0:30:36'Everyone needs to be in the know and Jackie knits that together,'
0:30:36 > 0:30:41throws her ideas around, cos she's been in the game so long.
0:30:41 > 0:30:42'She knows what she's talking about.'
0:30:42 > 0:30:45We know you have to do the pre- and the post-match,
0:30:45 > 0:30:47but I want it to be fun for you, so you don't get bored.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50So here's one that Wolves did with Matt Murray,
0:30:50 > 0:30:54where he basically dished the dirt on his team-mates. Have a look at this.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58"What was the score?" "Yeah, we got what we want. I scored."
0:30:58 > 0:31:01"What was your goal like?" "I put in the middle corner(!)"
0:31:01 > 0:31:04LAUGHTER That's something you'd be great at,
0:31:04 > 0:31:08cos you'd know all the dirt on the players, how you can embarrass them.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10You need someone in the thick of it.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14'I just thought that football would want me involved.'
0:31:14 > 0:31:18I just didn't really think about it, so to then have to overcome
0:31:18 > 0:31:21some of the things that I have early on,
0:31:21 > 0:31:24it's nice now to be like it's just Jackie.
0:31:24 > 0:31:30'Being normal, being bland "Just Jackie, she doesn't stand out" '
0:31:30 > 0:31:33is like music to my ears.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36- Cool, OK, then, guys. I will leave you to it.- Thanks, Jackie.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39- But that's good.- I appreciate that, Jack, thanks.- No problem.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42What's stood out for me so far while making this programme is that,
0:31:42 > 0:31:46in one form or another, physical and sexual abuse,
0:31:46 > 0:31:49as well as discrimination, are all still happening.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52And when incidents occur, many women seem afraid to speak out
0:31:52 > 0:31:57and I think that's because, if they do, they feel they stand alone.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00WIFs came about in 2006,
0:32:00 > 0:32:03and I spoke to women in the FA and they said, "This is fantastic!
0:32:03 > 0:32:08"Yes, let's bring women together." Um, they went back to their superiors
0:32:08 > 0:32:09and had a conversation
0:32:09 > 0:32:13and it then came down from the very top of the FA, um...
0:32:13 > 0:32:17"We're ever so sorry, but the FA Council," um...
0:32:17 > 0:32:22which is 91 men out of 92 members, "..would feel very uncomfortable with
0:32:22 > 0:32:26"the idea of getting women together under the umbrella of the FA."
0:32:26 > 0:32:29So did they explain why this was going to be so offensive to them?
0:32:29 > 0:32:32No. The word used was "uncomfortable",
0:32:32 > 0:32:36which I took as a euphemism for "threat".
0:32:36 > 0:32:40Things at the FA did eventually move on
0:32:40 > 0:32:43and, four years later, they hosted an event for the WIFs.
0:32:44 > 0:32:47What's interesting on the FA website,
0:32:47 > 0:32:51one of the most interesting pages, entitled "Organisations, Structure,"
0:32:51 > 0:32:55and you see it's entitled "The Decision Makers"
0:32:55 > 0:33:02and this is 12 names up here, not one female name makes decisions.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05And I would pretty much, I don't know all 12 of them,
0:33:05 > 0:33:08but I'd pretty much suggest they're all male, middle class,
0:33:08 > 0:33:12they're all white, I mean, so it isn't prejudiced against,
0:33:12 > 0:33:15it's just the way the world has developed for those positions.
0:33:15 > 0:33:18- On the board of the FA? No, I haven't, no.- Would you?
0:33:18 > 0:33:23- What, if I was asked? Well, um...- Cos you just seem like the stand-out candidate?
0:33:23 > 0:33:28- You know, and it does seem bizarre that the FA can't find anyone.- Yeah.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31Well, I mean, I personally won't invest a penny of my own money
0:33:31 > 0:33:35in a business that doesn't have a woman on its board of directors.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37Well, I certainly hope there's more opportunities
0:33:37 > 0:33:40for women to participate at that highest level.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43We in the Football Association of Wales have a council behind us,
0:33:43 > 0:33:46but at the moment, we do not have a female representative upon that.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48It will be time we probably did.
0:33:48 > 0:33:52'Um, I definitely want to be the first female council member to get on that council'
0:33:52 > 0:33:56to make decisions, and I've said that openly and have fun about it,
0:33:56 > 0:33:59but at the end of the day, for me, you know,
0:33:59 > 0:34:02getting my licence and coaching at this level, giving something back,
0:34:02 > 0:34:06is so special and I'd never take it for granted.
0:34:06 > 0:34:07Slowly, slowly, I think.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10Let's not make too many drastic changes straight away
0:34:10 > 0:34:11otherwise it just won't happen.
0:34:11 > 0:34:15It's taken so long to try and even be appreciated, I think,
0:34:15 > 0:34:17in the role that I'm in now.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21It's only now people are saying, asking your opinions about things,
0:34:21 > 0:34:23because, years ago, they didn't think you could
0:34:23 > 0:34:27answer the question about football, so we'll be all right.
0:34:29 > 0:34:34'I know quite a few women working in football in England, brilliant persons,'
0:34:34 > 0:34:39and they have to also be used in the governance positions, but again,
0:34:39 > 0:34:43the only thing UEFA can do in a way is to set a kind of role model
0:34:43 > 0:34:47by doing this and also saying to the other federations,
0:34:47 > 0:34:50"Look, this is part of the governance, how it should be
0:34:50 > 0:34:55"in the future," but it's up to the FA themselves to decide on this.
0:34:55 > 0:34:57I think the FA can take a lead
0:34:57 > 0:35:02in giving women more senior roles, when appropriate.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05And when we were sent a form asking us our views
0:35:05 > 0:35:09on independent non-executive directors, I did make
0:35:09 > 0:35:12or put forward a whole list of women I thought could do an excellent job.
0:35:12 > 0:35:17Where that list is, who's read it and what will become of it, I don't know.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20Shortly after we spoke to Karren Brady,
0:35:20 > 0:35:23the FA announced that they were appointing Heather Rabbatts
0:35:23 > 0:35:28as one of two new independent non-executive directors to add to their board.
0:35:30 > 0:35:35It is significant. I mean, the FA's 150 years old next year,
0:35:35 > 0:35:38I'm the first woman to be appointed to the board,
0:35:38 > 0:35:41but I'm also, you know, really conscious
0:35:41 > 0:35:44that I was a unanimous decision, because of all of my other
0:35:44 > 0:35:48experiences in business, in media and in government that, um,
0:35:48 > 0:35:52I think will help get a broader view for the board
0:35:52 > 0:35:55to sort of make some of those decisions going forward.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59- Um, I am also a woman and mixed race. - Before you were appointed,
0:35:59 > 0:36:01did you look from the outside and feel that the FA
0:36:01 > 0:36:04was lacking a female presence?
0:36:04 > 0:36:08I suppose what I would say is, you know, with another hat on,
0:36:08 > 0:36:12I chair audit and risk for a very big infrastructure project.
0:36:12 > 0:36:14There's no woman on that board either.
0:36:14 > 0:36:19Football is, sadly, not alone and the recent reports,
0:36:19 > 0:36:24whether the reports on the top 100 FTSE companies, the Davies Report.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27- The FTSE 100 companies is 14% of the average?- Yeah, exactly.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30- And the FA board is 7% now.- Now. - So, to be in line with the FTSE 100,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33the FA board would have to have another woman?
0:36:33 > 0:36:35Indeed, um, and, you know,
0:36:35 > 0:36:40not that there are targets, as we know, set, or quotas set in this country.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46The stereotypes are being knocked down.
0:36:46 > 0:36:48The male-female is being knocked down.
0:36:48 > 0:36:50It is a very much still male environment
0:36:50 > 0:36:53and that won't change, because not every female
0:36:53 > 0:36:56grows up wanting to be a footballer or the football manager.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58Every single male that grows up wants to do that,
0:36:58 > 0:37:02so you're competing against an awful lot of other people.
0:37:02 > 0:37:06There are so many men that want to commentate on football, for example,
0:37:06 > 0:37:10that I don't think you should be shoehorning half of your new recruits
0:37:10 > 0:37:13as to being women who are necessarily not that keen to do it.
0:37:13 > 0:37:15That just doesn't make any sense.
0:37:15 > 0:37:19Can you persuade the cynics who think that positive discrimination,
0:37:19 > 0:37:23as happens on boards in Norway, where 40% of the board has to be
0:37:23 > 0:37:26a woman, can you persuade them that that is actually a good thing?
0:37:26 > 0:37:30Cos even feminists sometimes balk at the idea of quotas.
0:37:30 > 0:37:35I'm strongly defending that and I'm a result of that myself.
0:37:35 > 0:37:39When I first was asked to enter the Norwegian ExCo back in '88,
0:37:39 > 0:37:40I was quota'd into it.
0:37:40 > 0:37:45I don't... I'm not a great believer that quotas are the way forward.
0:37:45 > 0:37:50It works against the vast majority to the benefit of a small minority.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53The tokenism is something that I think many women,
0:37:53 > 0:37:55certainly I would feel offended by.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58Many girls playing or mostly the boys?
0:37:58 > 0:38:01- Well, they do have a club for football.- They do?- Yeah.- Good.
0:38:01 > 0:38:05So being the vice-president, that was the result of proven competence,
0:38:05 > 0:38:09not because you're quota'd, but I used to say I would never have had
0:38:09 > 0:38:14a chance to prove that if I wasn't quota'd into the first position.
0:38:14 > 0:38:18- Where do you sit on quotas?- I'm not, personally, I'm not convinced.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21I have a former president in the Norwegian FA who says,
0:38:21 > 0:38:23"Karen, this is not a big discussion.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26"Men has been quota'd for 70 years."
0:38:26 > 0:38:30- I don't know if you've seen on the FA website...- Mm-hm?
0:38:30 > 0:38:33- The board is called The Decision Makers.- Mm-hm.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36And you're not on that page yet, which is why I was asking
0:38:36 > 0:38:39whether you actually have decision-making powers, because...
0:38:39 > 0:38:42I'm pretty certain I do, so... SHE LAUGHS
0:38:42 > 0:38:46You've told me, that's good enough for me. I want to see your name on there, though.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50- OK...- I want you to be on there. - I'll go away and look at it, then.
0:38:50 > 0:38:52LAUGHTER Thanks for pointing it out.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55That's all right. I wonder how many more females,
0:38:55 > 0:38:57and how we're going to get more females into those roles.
0:38:57 > 0:39:02For many years, you would often hear, "Oh, there's just nobody out there."
0:39:02 > 0:39:07- Hmm.- Well, actually, there are many talented women out there.
0:39:07 > 0:39:11Kelly Simmons is one of those women that frequently got quoted to us
0:39:11 > 0:39:14as just an obvious choice.
0:39:14 > 0:39:18And I would hope, at some future, that she would be part of that,
0:39:18 > 0:39:21er, team that has representation on the board.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26Kelly Simmons is head of the National Game at the FA,
0:39:26 > 0:39:30responsible for investing £200 million into grassroots football.
0:39:30 > 0:39:33The recruitment was for independent
0:39:33 > 0:39:37non-executive directors in this case and, obviously, I'm a staff member,
0:39:37 > 0:39:39so I wouldn't be qualified
0:39:39 > 0:39:42to, er, to throw my name in the hat really for that.
0:39:42 > 0:39:45Karren Brady, when we spoke to her, had never been approached.
0:39:45 > 0:39:48I was amazed she'd never been approached by the FA.
0:39:48 > 0:39:53It just seems, to have somebody who's got that much experience in football, to not even be...
0:39:53 > 0:39:56Well, I think, to be an independent non-exec,
0:39:56 > 0:40:01you could not be a serving executive of a football club, so Karren couldn't have applied.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05I mean, part of the criteria was that as an independent non-exec,
0:40:05 > 0:40:08you absolutely couldn't have any affiliation,
0:40:08 > 0:40:11um, with a current football club.
0:40:12 > 0:40:16But there are only two independent non-executives on the FA board -
0:40:16 > 0:40:20many of the other members ARE currently working in the game.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24So how will women like Karren Brady and Kelly Simmons ever join them?
0:40:26 > 0:40:30Well, I think it's about whether it's our colleagues in the professional game
0:40:30 > 0:40:33and our colleagues in the national game thinking about future succession
0:40:33 > 0:40:38and ensuring that there's a pool of talent that can come through
0:40:38 > 0:40:42and be, you know, selected for those roles.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44I've a bet going with a mate
0:40:44 > 0:40:47that there'll be a female Premier League manager within ten years,
0:40:47 > 0:40:53because, you know, whatever's said, at the top level, we're an entertainment business.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56You never know! I don't want to rule it out and say, "Never," but...
0:40:56 > 0:40:58That would be probably the last big...
0:40:58 > 0:41:00barrier to break through.
0:41:00 > 0:41:01Who dares to be the first to do that?
0:41:01 > 0:41:03That'd be fantastic.
0:41:03 > 0:41:05I don't think I'll see one in my lifetime.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08Someone, somewhere, will appoint a female manager.
0:41:08 > 0:41:11And whether it's because she's the best person out there,
0:41:11 > 0:41:14or because of the commercial aspects that come with it...
0:41:14 > 0:41:17Whatever the reason, the reason will be it's the best situation for the club.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19I think that there are women...
0:41:19 > 0:41:21There are a number of women in the industry
0:41:21 > 0:41:25who've been incredibly brave and broken through those glass ceilings.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28I just think that the level of women's football is not great enough
0:41:28 > 0:41:33where a woman could be in charge of a team at Championship level, Premiership level.
0:41:33 > 0:41:35That's just my personal opinion.
0:41:35 > 0:41:36It will happen.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39If it's questionable
0:41:39 > 0:41:41whether there'll ever be a top female manager,
0:41:41 > 0:41:45it's even less clear which body stands up for women with issues in the game.
0:41:45 > 0:41:48The body that represents women?
0:41:51 > 0:41:53No, nope.
0:41:53 > 0:41:55The racism thing's obviously well-documented,
0:41:55 > 0:41:57cos every start of the season,
0:41:57 > 0:42:01you have your team photographed with "Let's Kick Racism Out Of Football."
0:42:02 > 0:42:03Erm...
0:42:05 > 0:42:09Well, there isn't, is there? Really, in that sense.
0:42:09 > 0:42:11I mean, obviously, the FA would...
0:42:11 > 0:42:14look at the women's game, but the women's game...
0:42:14 > 0:42:18There's a subtle difference between representing women footballers
0:42:18 > 0:42:20and representing women in football.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23If we collectively, the women in our organisation,
0:42:23 > 0:42:26can't make it better, then who's going to do that for us?
0:42:26 > 0:42:29I think that's the point that we've come to with the WIFs.
0:42:29 > 0:42:31Previously, we were happy to, you know,
0:42:31 > 0:42:35just keep things amongst ourselves, not be a campaigning voice.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38But the turning point was really the Sian Massey incident,
0:42:38 > 0:42:42and realising that anybody who came out and spoke on behalf of women
0:42:42 > 0:42:44around that time, they had to do so as individuals,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47and so they had to take the full flak on their shoulders.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49And it was very exposing for them.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51It's very difficult.
0:42:51 > 0:42:57I mean, when I was a lawyer in the really early days of harassment,
0:42:57 > 0:43:00it is always about who breaks the silence.
0:43:00 > 0:43:05And it takes massive courage to do that, so to that extent,
0:43:05 > 0:43:07I think it's been...
0:43:07 > 0:43:09There were some positive repercussions
0:43:09 > 0:43:12out of some very unacceptable comments that were made.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15Do you think there's more the FA could do with WIFs?
0:43:15 > 0:43:18I don't know, really. I think we're probably...
0:43:18 > 0:43:20All of the football bodies maybe could promote it more,
0:43:20 > 0:43:22but there's some good numbers turning up
0:43:22 > 0:43:25from a real diverse range of roles in the game.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29There are definitely some more reformed characters than others.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32And so, like, Eddie Gray talks to me...
0:43:32 > 0:43:34you know, as an equal
0:43:34 > 0:43:36and, you know, is totally accepting of the idea
0:43:36 > 0:43:38that women work in the game.
0:43:38 > 0:43:40And then you get guys who are in their 30s
0:43:40 > 0:43:43who just can't get their head round it, you know?
0:43:43 > 0:43:46Having run a football club in my previous life
0:43:46 > 0:43:49and, you know, been in certain situations, yes,
0:43:49 > 0:43:54there is obviously sexism around, and I was in a meeting
0:43:54 > 0:43:56where we got women in football together
0:43:56 > 0:43:58and we could all fit in one room.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01- The last meeting we went to filled a much bigger room than this.- Good!
0:44:01 > 0:44:04Do you think there might be a more structured approach?
0:44:04 > 0:44:05There may well be,
0:44:05 > 0:44:09and I think it would be something I would want to talk about further
0:44:09 > 0:44:12with some of my colleagues here over the forthcoming months.
0:44:12 > 0:44:17I've sort of been here for about six weeks now, I think,
0:44:17 > 0:44:19so it's sort of early, early days.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23And that absolutely has to be something that those chairmen -
0:44:23 > 0:44:26and they are all chairMEN - have to think about.
0:44:26 > 0:44:30It's not necessarily just about the 11 players on the pitch...
0:44:30 > 0:44:32'It really comes down to culture.'
0:44:32 > 0:44:35And it's one of the hardest things you can change in any organisation,
0:44:35 > 0:44:38and it only comes from change right at the top,
0:44:38 > 0:44:44where people really, fundamentally, honestly and passionately believe
0:44:44 > 0:44:46that things need to be changed.
0:44:46 > 0:44:48Not just, "What do we look like?"
0:44:50 > 0:44:52Yeah, see you in a few weeks. Bye.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55If I'd said that to a bloke and offered him a job,
0:44:55 > 0:44:57he'd say, "Yeah, great. Brilliant."
0:44:57 > 0:44:59And he'd think, "I can't do that!" But he wouldn't say it.
0:44:59 > 0:45:03So sometimes, I think there's an honesty often about women,
0:45:03 > 0:45:05or a realism and...we could probably communicate a bit more
0:45:05 > 0:45:08and there's less bravado, perhaps.
0:45:08 > 0:45:10A bit less testosterone, as Gabby referred to it.
0:45:12 > 0:45:16So that was my first experience of a WIFs' meeting.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19And I have to say, they've asked me before and I couldn't make it
0:45:19 > 0:45:23as I genuinely had work commitments, but I also was reticent,
0:45:23 > 0:45:26because I didn't know if I wanted to share the experiences that I'd had,
0:45:26 > 0:45:29'and, you know, it felt like I was doing a positive thing,
0:45:29 > 0:45:31'sharing those things, as some of the women -
0:45:31 > 0:45:34'and girls - had also experienced similar things.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37'It's probably good to know you're not alone.'
0:45:37 > 0:45:40It wasn't as scary an experience as I thought it was going to be,
0:45:40 > 0:45:42and they're a lovely bunch of ladies.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45I'd actually love to come and maybe speak to them again sometime
0:45:45 > 0:45:49and hear their thoughts. So...I think I'll do that.
0:45:50 > 0:45:54Everything else has been taken away from them.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57You know, we get better grades than them and we take their jobs away.
0:45:57 > 0:45:59I've actually got that on a...
0:45:59 > 0:46:03Somebody sent me a card - "First we get better grades from them
0:46:03 > 0:46:04"and then we take their jobs."
0:46:04 > 0:46:07- Now we've taken football. - Now we've taken football.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09It is a man's game.
0:46:09 > 0:46:13However, in terms of what goes in and around the support of those players
0:46:13 > 0:46:17on that pitch, can that be more diverse and inclusive?
0:46:17 > 0:46:20Yes, it can. You know, we moved a long way
0:46:20 > 0:46:25from those few, lone black players in terms of the diversity of race
0:46:25 > 0:46:29we see on the pitch, which is, I think, absolutely brilliant.
0:46:29 > 0:46:34It's about can we get some diversity around what happens in football,
0:46:34 > 0:46:37which particularly includes and represents women?
0:46:38 > 0:46:39Where we are now,
0:46:39 > 0:46:43there will never be fewer women in football than what we have now.
0:46:43 > 0:46:44There will only be more of us.
0:46:44 > 0:46:47So I think that doesn't sit well with a lot of people.
0:46:47 > 0:46:49But when Sepp Blatter says things like,
0:46:49 > 0:46:51"Women's shorts should be tighter
0:46:51 > 0:46:54"and it would increase the popularity of the sport..."
0:46:54 > 0:46:56You know, this attitude comes from the top down.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58How helpful is that?
0:46:58 > 0:47:00I have had a chance to discuss that with him
0:47:00 > 0:47:04and also tried to communicate and say, "This is not what it's about."
0:47:04 > 0:47:08- What kind of response did you get? - He has to answer that.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11Goalkeepers in shorts? Pfft!
0:47:11 > 0:47:12GABBY LAUGHS
0:47:12 > 0:47:14Have you ever thought,
0:47:14 > 0:47:17"I'm going to be the one. I'm going to push myself forwards"?
0:47:17 > 0:47:18As you've seen your male colleagues...
0:47:18 > 0:47:22"I'll be that chief football writer. I'll be the sports editor."
0:47:22 > 0:47:24When I first started, yes,
0:47:24 > 0:47:28I think I thought that was possible if I wanted it.
0:47:28 > 0:47:33Now, I'm beginning to think, "Will it happen in my lifetime?"
0:47:33 > 0:47:37I think it's really important that the role of women in football
0:47:37 > 0:47:38is looked at seriously,
0:47:38 > 0:47:41in the same way that weight is given to homophobia and racism,
0:47:41 > 0:47:42and the women we spoke to -
0:47:42 > 0:47:45who've experienced terrible treatment -
0:47:45 > 0:47:46never have to go through it again,
0:47:46 > 0:47:49and the people after them don't have to experience it.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52I think that will be better for men AND women in the game,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55and I think it'll be better, ultimately, for the game itself,
0:47:55 > 0:47:57the game that we love, the beautiful game.
0:47:59 > 0:48:01I always likened working at a club
0:48:01 > 0:48:04to the end scene of the Wizard Of Oz,
0:48:04 > 0:48:06when you pull back the curtain and you think,
0:48:06 > 0:48:08"Oh, is that it? Just a guy with a microphone?"
0:48:08 > 0:48:10And it just kind of ruins illusion.
0:48:10 > 0:48:14# Somewhere
0:48:15 > 0:48:21# Over the rainbow... #
0:48:21 > 0:48:24If you're a female and you want to get involved in that environment,
0:48:24 > 0:48:28you are knocking your head against a very, very tough wall.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30And you would wonder...
0:48:32 > 0:48:35..to a certain extent, why do you want to do that?
0:48:35 > 0:48:37What are you looking to prove?
0:48:40 > 0:48:45# That I heard of once
0:48:45 > 0:48:49# Once in a lullaby... #
0:48:50 > 0:48:51What changed in you, then?
0:48:51 > 0:48:53Um...
0:48:55 > 0:48:56How do you mean?
0:48:56 > 0:48:58Why did you think it was possible?
0:48:58 > 0:49:00And now you've got to a situation where...
0:49:00 > 0:49:03You know, what happened to the young Vikki who thought it was possible?
0:49:03 > 0:49:04Erm...
0:49:07 > 0:49:09I don't know.
0:49:11 > 0:49:15The ball, the ball. Pass the ball.
0:49:22 > 0:49:26I think you always assume it'll be better for the next generation,
0:49:26 > 0:49:29and it's going to be easier for the next generation.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32So, therefore, I hope it's not even a consideration to Lois,
0:49:32 > 0:49:35that there's nothing that she feels she can't do,
0:49:35 > 0:49:39and there's nothing that she feels is a male-dominated industry.
0:49:39 > 0:49:42And whether that is a more peculiar situation for her
0:49:42 > 0:49:44as she has me as a mum and therefore she sees me
0:49:44 > 0:49:48doing something that other people might perceive as being a man's job
0:49:48 > 0:49:50or, you know, again asking the question,
0:49:50 > 0:49:52"What's it like to work in a man's world?"
0:49:52 > 0:49:55Which I'm still asked 18 years or so into this industry.
0:49:55 > 0:49:57How can you not take someone seriously
0:49:57 > 0:50:00who's been in football for 13 years?
0:50:00 > 0:50:03So, for me again, not had a problem there.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06But it's taken a long time.
0:50:06 > 0:50:13# ..you'll find me
0:50:14 > 0:50:19# Somewhere over the rainbow... #
0:50:19 > 0:50:23Hopefully, her and her generation will find it to be a more open
0:50:23 > 0:50:27and comfortable route to wherever they want to go
0:50:27 > 0:50:30and they don't feel that they're being knocked back
0:50:30 > 0:50:31because of their sex.
0:50:31 > 0:50:33# Beyond the rainbow
0:50:33 > 0:50:36# Why, oh, why can't I? #
0:50:38 > 0:50:39SHE EXHALES
0:50:39 > 0:50:41APPLAUSE
0:50:41 > 0:50:43That was so good!
0:50:43 > 0:50:46- Well done! - GABBY CHUCKLES