0:00:34 > 0:00:36Hello and welcome.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38I first met Muhammad Ali in 1968,
0:00:38 > 0:00:41a year or so after he'd been stripped
0:00:41 > 0:00:43of his world heavyweight title
0:00:43 > 0:00:46for refusing, on religious grounds, to fight in Vietnam.
0:00:47 > 0:00:51Throughout the next few pivotal years of his life, we met often
0:00:51 > 0:00:54and talked on television at least seven or eight times.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59A good preparation for taking a look, as we're about to do,
0:00:59 > 0:01:05at Muhammad Ali as he was then and Muhammad Ali as he is now.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08ROAR OF CROWD
0:01:08 > 0:01:13COMMENTATOR: 'Oh! That left caught him! It came from nowhere.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15'Ali makes two with the left.
0:01:15 > 0:01:16'The crowd screaming.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20'The first knockdown in the fight he took the mandatory eight.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23'And now Ali is behaving like the old Ali.
0:01:23 > 0:01:27'One more knockdown in this round, the fight is automatically over.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29'He is running.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31'If he goes down again...
0:01:31 > 0:01:34'It's over! Ali is the knockout winner
0:01:34 > 0:01:36'at two minutes and three seconds,
0:01:36 > 0:01:40'by my unofficial clock, of the final round.'
0:01:41 > 0:01:43Tell me, when you were boxing,
0:01:43 > 0:01:45which did you regard as your strongest hand,
0:01:45 > 0:01:47your right or your left?
0:01:53 > 0:01:54Really?
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Why is it, do you think, that over the years
0:01:56 > 0:02:00black boxers do better than white boxers?
0:02:10 > 0:02:13What would be your advice to young boxers today?
0:02:18 > 0:02:20Hit and run!
0:02:21 > 0:02:25As you drive into Muhammad Ali's spacious 88-acre estate
0:02:25 > 0:02:27in southwest Michigan,
0:02:27 > 0:02:30first you glimpse a comfortable farmhouse.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32Then you drive on to the office building
0:02:32 > 0:02:37where Muhammad and his wife Lonnie work with their staff.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39They are the offices of GOAT,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42an acronym for Greatest Of All Time.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46Few would disagree.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Muhammad, it's 34 years since we first met. How are you?
0:02:53 > 0:02:55But feeling good?
0:03:00 > 0:03:05Do you think that the Parkinson's that you've got
0:03:05 > 0:03:07was caused by boxing.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48Despite the Parkinson's,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51your mind is just as good, isn't it, today, as it ever was?
0:03:51 > 0:03:52Perhaps better.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05Yeah.
0:04:05 > 0:04:06Yeah.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16He makes appearances, but for different types of legislation,
0:04:16 > 0:04:18especially when it comes to funding.
0:04:18 > 0:04:22I think what bothers him more is when he sees young adults
0:04:22 > 0:04:26affected by this disease, and it is a very insidious disease.
0:04:26 > 0:04:27I mean,
0:04:27 > 0:04:31his association with Michael J Fox and the Michael J Fox Foundation,
0:04:31 > 0:04:34I think Michael had a big impact on Muhammad
0:04:34 > 0:04:38because Michael's still young and, you know,
0:04:38 > 0:04:41he has young children, a young wife, and Muhammad could say,
0:04:41 > 0:04:42"I've lived most of my life".
0:04:42 > 0:04:45But this is a young guy who has gotten this.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48And Michael's very affected by this illness, this disease.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50He doesn't let it stop him
0:04:50 > 0:04:52but his motor functions are very much affected by it.
0:04:52 > 0:04:58And with the new drugs, it could...it could get better.
0:04:58 > 0:04:59Or not worse - could get better.
0:05:15 > 0:05:16It's always up and down.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19It's always trying to adjust and re-adjust
0:05:19 > 0:05:22because I think the body becomes immune to things eventually.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25And with Muhammad, it's particular difficult
0:05:25 > 0:05:27because his body's so fine-tuned.
0:05:27 > 0:05:28As we've just seen,
0:05:28 > 0:05:32one of the major contrasts in Muhammad's life then and now
0:05:32 > 0:05:35is his physical condition, waging a brave fight
0:05:35 > 0:05:39against the most remorseless opponent he has ever had to fight -
0:05:39 > 0:05:41Parkinson's.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43After some of the more lurid newspaper stories
0:05:43 > 0:05:45we've read about his health over the years,
0:05:45 > 0:05:48I must say my first emotion was a sense of relief,
0:05:48 > 0:05:51that Muhammad had not lost the characteristic sense of humour
0:05:51 > 0:05:53and natural intelligence
0:05:53 > 0:05:57that had delighted the world ever since his career began.
0:05:57 > 0:06:01We started by reminiscing about those early days.
0:06:01 > 0:06:06What was your first memory of throwing a punch? How old were you?
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Did you know then you were going to be famous, when you were a kid?
0:07:08 > 0:07:12Cassius Clay, as he then was, first achieved world recognition
0:07:12 > 0:07:17when he won the heavyweight gold medal at the Rome Olympics of 1960.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22He and his team-mates made no attempt to conceal their delight.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26After you'd won the gold medal in the Olympics
0:07:26 > 0:07:29and you went back home to Louisville,
0:07:29 > 0:07:34and in fact, the five and dime store wouldn't serve you,
0:07:34 > 0:07:39did you really throw your Olympic gold medal into the Ohio River?
0:08:39 > 0:08:43You really did throw it in the river?
0:08:57 > 0:09:01And in fact, you got that gold medal...
0:09:01 > 0:09:05they gave you a new gold medal in 1996, at Atlanta, didn't they?
0:09:12 > 0:09:16And in those early days in Miami, just before you were training...
0:09:16 > 0:09:19when you were training there, that was when you met,
0:09:19 > 0:09:24would you say one of the most important people in your life,
0:09:24 > 0:09:25Malcolm X?
0:09:25 > 0:09:29Was he one of the most important people in your life?
0:10:37 > 0:10:40And you really liked Malcolm X, did you?
0:10:42 > 0:10:45Of all the fights, what's your greatest memory? Which one?
0:10:50 > 0:10:52Yeah.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Just four weeks before Muhammad's greatest fight,
0:11:02 > 0:11:05I was fortunate enough to be at his training camp
0:11:05 > 0:11:07in Deer Lake for an interview.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10After we'd climbed into the ring,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13what followed was vintage Ali.
0:11:13 > 0:11:14No problem.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16LAUGHTER
0:11:16 > 0:11:20No problem. This will be the biggest upset since Sonny Liston.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22And I think it is befitting
0:11:22 > 0:11:25that I go out of boxing just like I came in -
0:11:25 > 0:11:30defeating a big, bad monster that nobody could destroy.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33A hard punch. I'm the underdog.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36If he hits me, I'm in trouble, like the Sonny Liston fight.
0:11:36 > 0:11:40But I came back and I shook the world when I got Liston.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42Now it's ten years since Sonny Liston,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45I'm meeting another big, bad, strong monster,
0:11:45 > 0:11:48knockout artist that beats everybody.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52Sonny Liston knocked out Patterson twice and I was supposed to fall.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55But he didn't knock me out because...
0:11:55 > 0:11:58He could hit hard but he couldn't find nothing to hit.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00George Foreman knocked out Ken Norton,
0:12:00 > 0:12:02knocked out Joe Frazier.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05True, I didn't knock him out but I'm so fast,
0:12:05 > 0:12:10I'm so hard, so scientific - I'm a totally different man from Frazier.
0:12:10 > 0:12:15Listen, David, when I meet this man, if you think the world was surprised
0:12:15 > 0:12:18when Nixon resigned, wait till I whip Foreman's behind!
0:12:18 > 0:12:24LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:12:24 > 0:12:27I'm telling you, David, I'm down to 215 pounds, right now sat here
0:12:27 > 0:12:30weighing 215, I'm fighting weight already.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32I usually train six weeks for a fight.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35I've trained four months for this fight, I'm chopping trees,
0:12:35 > 0:12:39I've done something special - I've wrestled with an alligator.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42I believe you totally.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45- I believe you completely. - I have tussled with a whale,
0:12:45 > 0:12:48I've handcuffed lighting, throw thunder in jail.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52You know I'm bad. Only last week I murdered a rock, injured a stone,
0:12:52 > 0:12:57hospitalised a brick, I'm so mean I make medicine sick.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59LAUGHTER
0:12:59 > 0:13:01Man's in trouble.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Listen, people are afraid of George Foreman,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08they talk about how hard he hits - the world has been deceived.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12You listen, I've never told you wrong, the man don't hit hard,
0:13:12 > 0:13:16he knocked Joe Frazier down six times, he got up six times.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20Jose King Roman, the Puerto Rican fighter,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23he knocked him down three times, he jumped up three times.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26He knocked Ken Norton down four times, he jumped up four times.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30When have you ever seen the man say seven, eight, nine, ten...
0:13:30 > 0:13:31Count this man out.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35When I hit Sonny Liston, he stayed out for the count of ten.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37Zora Folley stayed out for the count of ten,
0:13:37 > 0:13:40Cleveland Williams stayed out for the count of ten.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42What few I haven't knocked out stayed down.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45Sugar Ray Robinson I knocked him out for the count of 30, Joe Lewis,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48Marciano, Jack Dempsey, Jack Johnson,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50Archie Moore, they knock 'em out cold,
0:13:50 > 0:13:54so this man has never knocked nobody out cold, he's a bully.
0:13:54 > 0:13:58He's slow, he has no skill, no footwork, he's awkward,
0:13:58 > 0:14:00and I have given him a name...
0:14:00 > 0:14:03I named Floyd Patterson the Rabbit, I named Sonny Liston the Bear,
0:14:03 > 0:14:07and he shall be known officially as the Mummy!
0:14:07 > 0:14:09APPLAUSE
0:14:09 > 0:14:10The Mummy.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13Why the Mummy?
0:14:13 > 0:14:17Because when he's fighting, if you ever watch him in the ring,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19he drags like this at his opponent.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23LAUGHTER
0:14:25 > 0:14:27And how's a mummy ever going to catch me?
0:14:27 > 0:14:30When you're fighting a mummy, you just keep a step ahead of the mummy,
0:14:30 > 0:14:31yeah, just move on the mummy.
0:14:31 > 0:14:35Nope, mummy, I'm over here. Nope, mummy I'm over here...
0:14:35 > 0:14:39No, you're moving too fast, the Mummy don't move that fast!
0:14:39 > 0:14:41Let me tell you something, David,
0:14:41 > 0:14:44I shall be the Mummy's curse that night.
0:14:44 > 0:14:49- Have you heard of the Mummy's curse? - Have I heard of the Mummy's curse?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51Yes, it's going to be some fight.
0:14:51 > 0:14:55The greatest fight, the greatest event of all time
0:14:55 > 0:14:57when I get to Kinshasa, Zaire.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59Two billion people will watch the fight
0:14:59 > 0:15:02and that's ten times the population of America.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06That's like a country ten times bigger than America.
0:15:06 > 0:15:10Two billion people, to give you an idea how many people that is,
0:15:10 > 0:15:15two billion people will fill an arena of 100,000 seats
0:15:15 > 0:15:19every night with new faces for 170 years.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22- That's a great...- A hundred thousand people every night,
0:15:22 > 0:15:27new faces, for 170 years and I draw that crowd, not George Foreman.
0:15:27 > 0:15:32It's my beautiful looks, it's my skill, um, it's my va-va-voom-ness.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34Your beauty and your humble...
0:15:34 > 0:15:37I think first of all it's your humbleness
0:15:37 > 0:15:39and then it's your beauty, isn't it?
0:15:39 > 0:15:41Cos when you look in the mirror in the morning,
0:15:41 > 0:15:43it must be a wonderful experience.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46You know, I've been in the ring now for probably 20 years
0:15:46 > 0:15:48and I'm as pretty as you(!)
0:15:48 > 0:15:50LAUGHTER
0:15:50 > 0:15:52And slightly fitter. Which round is it going to end?
0:15:52 > 0:15:58I'm not predicting the round. Uh, could, but it puts me on the spot.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02You worry about predicting the round and then you might get him early
0:16:02 > 0:16:04and then you'd carry on to that round or you might slip up
0:16:04 > 0:16:07and get hurt, there's too much pressure.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10I predict, David, that I'm going to out-dance him,
0:16:10 > 0:16:14I'm going to stick him, I'm going to be three times as fast,
0:16:14 > 0:16:16I'm going to punch him at will.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20I might not knock him out cold but I'll TKO him. I predict a TKO.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24I predict that the fight will be stopped on cuts or bruises.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29I'll humiliate him. Humiliation will stop this fight.
0:16:29 > 0:16:31The referee will just step in and stop cos I'll just be
0:16:31 > 0:16:35popping at will, popping and sticking and moving and I'm constant...
0:16:35 > 0:16:40I'm popping at will until the man will just have to stop it.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44You mean, it's going to be the first world title ever stopped on the grounds of humiliation?
0:16:44 > 0:16:48No, they've stopped a few of mine for that
0:16:48 > 0:16:51and they've stopped other ones,
0:16:51 > 0:16:56but I'm serious, this man has two chances - slim and none.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01- The man is in trouble.- The man...
0:17:01 > 0:17:04- He's got problems. - He's got problems.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08Have you done any...apart from wrestling with an alligator,
0:17:08 > 0:17:10have you done anything special this time, diets?
0:17:10 > 0:17:15Not just boxers, any athlete has to refrain from anything
0:17:15 > 0:17:17that is bad for his health.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19So, therefore...
0:17:19 > 0:17:22Especially when you have a strenuous sport, football, baseball,
0:17:22 > 0:17:26basketball, wrestling, anything that takes stamina is hard
0:17:26 > 0:17:29and anybody watching this evening, you yourself, you get up
0:17:29 > 0:17:33and jump around - man or woman - scuffle with someone,
0:17:33 > 0:17:36jump around with them for three minutes and watch how tired you get.
0:17:36 > 0:17:40Serious wrestling and competition is tiresome
0:17:40 > 0:17:45and for 15 rounds before 150,000 people, knowing two billion
0:17:45 > 0:17:48people are watching, takes a lot out of you. It makes your...
0:17:48 > 0:17:52You got the world's greatest fighter and one of the world's best
0:17:52 > 0:17:55taking punches at your face, your body, little hard gloves on,
0:17:55 > 0:17:58and everything at stake, your futures, your lives,
0:17:58 > 0:18:01your family's investments, everything's at stake - this worries you.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04The pressure and the excitement, the drama.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07Even people who come to fights are nervous, and many of the fans here
0:18:07 > 0:18:12and yourself, I mean, the night you go to the fight, you'll be nervous
0:18:12 > 0:18:13just waiting for the bell to ring.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17Finally these two men are going to clash, who's going to win,
0:18:17 > 0:18:18Muhammad Ali or George Foreman?
0:18:18 > 0:18:22- Both of them are great, one's got to fall, right?- Yeah!
0:18:22 > 0:18:24Somebody's got to leave and you're excited.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26You're not as dumb as you look, fella!
0:18:26 > 0:18:28LAUGHTER
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Was rope-a-dope something you planned
0:18:31 > 0:18:34or something you thought of on the night?
0:19:24 > 0:19:30Are boxers today as good as they were in your day, or is boxing today
0:19:30 > 0:19:32not as good as it was in your day?
0:19:57 > 0:20:00And Mike Tyson, I mean,
0:20:00 > 0:20:04should they have banned Mike Tyson?
0:20:15 > 0:20:17Well, originally he bit off
0:20:17 > 0:20:22part of Evander Holyfield's ear, originally.
0:20:25 > 0:20:26That is bad, isn't it?
0:20:26 > 0:20:28And then later on, he got in a fight
0:20:28 > 0:20:31in a press conference with Lennox Lewis.
0:20:56 > 0:21:02But Mike Tyson is not necessarily a good example to young people.
0:21:20 > 0:21:25Is it better, when you're fighting, when you're boxing,
0:21:25 > 0:21:29is it better to go into the ring
0:21:29 > 0:21:34calm and cool or angry?
0:21:34 > 0:21:39I mean, you've done both, probably, but which is better?
0:21:58 > 0:22:02If you had your time over again, though, would you, Muhammad,
0:22:02 > 0:22:09have retired earlier - maybe in '77 or '79?
0:22:18 > 0:22:21Tell me, which is worse.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25Which is the greatest fear for a boxer going into the ring.
0:22:25 > 0:22:29Is it the fear of getting hurt or the fear of losing -
0:22:29 > 0:22:30which is the worst?
0:22:49 > 0:22:53Who had the strongest punch against you?
0:22:53 > 0:22:57Who put the hardest punches at you, Muhammad?
0:22:57 > 0:22:58HE SNORES
0:22:58 > 0:23:04Was it George Foreman or Joe Frazier or Spinks or who?
0:23:04 > 0:23:10HE SNORES
0:23:10 > 0:23:14Carry on, or shall we stop for a break?
0:23:14 > 0:23:16We'll just take a couple of minutes?
0:23:20 > 0:23:22He's teasing.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24DAVID LAUGHS
0:23:24 > 0:23:26You did that brilliantly, we didn't know.
0:23:26 > 0:23:31That's the first time I've thought that someone I'm interviewing
0:23:31 > 0:23:34had fallen asleep! You had us all going there.
0:23:36 > 0:23:37Yep.
0:23:43 > 0:23:47After Cassius Clay exchanged what he used to call his slave name
0:23:47 > 0:23:49for the name Muhammad Ali in 1964,
0:23:49 > 0:23:52under the influence of Elijah Muhammad
0:23:52 > 0:23:58he became an increasingly militant advocate for the blacks of America.
0:23:58 > 0:24:05I'm not here to advise or meet nobody. I'm just shocked and...shook up over
0:24:05 > 0:24:10hearing about the people and the children and the pregnant women that have been brutalised
0:24:10 > 0:24:12and mistreated here in Kentucky.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16And at this moment, when I'm expected to go overseas
0:24:16 > 0:24:19to help free the people in South Vietnam,
0:24:19 > 0:24:24and at the same time, my people here are being brutalized and mistreated,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27and this has disturbed me more than what's happening in Vietnam.
0:24:27 > 0:24:32You told me 34 years ago that all white men were devils.
0:24:32 > 0:24:35I believe that all white people are devils. I'm not going to be phoney.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38I've given up 10 million in fighting,
0:24:38 > 0:24:40I'll go to jail for five years,
0:24:40 > 0:24:43and you think I'm going to get on this TV show and deny
0:24:43 > 0:24:44what I believe?
0:24:44 > 0:24:46- No.- I believe every bit of it.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50- I know. I'm just... - Tell white people, defend yourself,
0:24:50 > 0:24:52and challenge this man.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55I challenge you now. In the sense that...
0:24:55 > 0:24:58I don't disagree with the fact that some white people...
0:24:58 > 0:24:59some white people are devils...
0:24:59 > 0:25:03The Christian Bible says all white people are devils.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06The Christian Bible says all people are sinful.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08It says all white Gentiles and Jews are devils.
0:25:08 > 0:25:12- No, it says all people are sinful. - In the Christian Bible.
0:25:12 > 0:25:17- If we say that the whole world... - Have you time to stop the show and let me get my briefcase?
0:25:17 > 0:25:19- Yeah, sure.- Can you stop the tape for a minute?
0:25:19 > 0:25:23- We'll keep the tape running... - Let me get my briefcase...- Get it in four hundredths of a second...
0:25:23 > 0:25:29Right. Well, he's just going to...
0:25:29 > 0:25:31prove to us that all white people are devils.
0:25:31 > 0:25:35We'll keep the tape running and...
0:25:37 > 0:25:41..and wait for him to return.
0:25:41 > 0:25:42Here we are.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55It says here in Romans...
0:25:55 > 0:25:58- Romans?- ..third chapter,
0:25:58 > 0:26:00and ninth verse...
0:26:00 > 0:26:06"What then," it says, "are we better they?
0:26:06 > 0:26:12"No and no wise, for we have before proved
0:26:12 > 0:26:18"both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin.
0:26:18 > 0:26:24"As it is written, there is non-righteous. No, not one."
0:26:24 > 0:26:27That proves what I said because that includes you and the blacks...
0:26:27 > 0:26:31- It says Jews and Gentiles. - The Greek word for Gentiles means...
0:26:31 > 0:26:36The Greek word for Gentiles means non-Jews.
0:26:36 > 0:26:41You've got a marvellous case. You're ruining it by going too far.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44- Prove I'm going too far.- Prove to me that it happened every day.
0:26:44 > 0:26:45What I'm doing is right.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48We couldn't preach this every day if it wasn't right.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51- Look, if you're going to... - Nobody challenges us,
0:26:51 > 0:26:55- not even the white government - everybody knows we preach. - I challenged you and I was right.
0:26:55 > 0:26:59- You're not right. Jews and Gentiles, which is white people... - Gentiles means BLACK people...
0:26:59 > 0:27:02- No. Gentiles means white people. - Gentiles means everyone who isn't a Jew.- Gentiles means white people.
0:27:02 > 0:27:04You don't really believe that now, do you?
0:27:37 > 0:27:42A dramatic example of Muhammad Ali then and now.
0:27:42 > 0:27:47After our first interview in 1968, I said to him that he was sounding
0:27:47 > 0:27:49a bit like a black George Wallace,
0:27:49 > 0:27:52referring to the white supremacist governor of Alabama.
0:27:52 > 0:27:56Nevertheless, his warmth and humanity still came through.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58I said to him that if only he could change the rhetoric,
0:27:58 > 0:28:01he could be a black Bobby Kennedy,
0:28:01 > 0:28:04rather than a black George Wallace.
0:28:04 > 0:28:09Over the years, not because I said so, he has made that journey.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11He just said there, not all white men are devils,
0:28:11 > 0:28:16anybody could be evil, it's the mentality not the colour.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19Things are different now in Louisville, aren't they?
0:28:19 > 0:28:25The blacks get a better deal in Louisville today, don't they?
0:29:04 > 0:29:08Muhammad Ali is the man who, as an individual,
0:29:08 > 0:29:10has stood for so many things.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13He stood primarily for the fact that we must all come together
0:29:13 > 0:29:15and live in peace.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19I'd like to present a proclamation to Muhammad and Lonnie
0:29:19 > 0:29:21at this very time.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23The Ali Center is really a legacy to the ideals,
0:29:23 > 0:29:27the beliefs and the values of Muhammad Ali.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29If you look at the man,
0:29:29 > 0:29:30an evolution of the man,
0:29:30 > 0:29:32you can learn a lot.
0:29:32 > 0:29:34I thought his footprint was too big
0:29:34 > 0:29:37to be left aside.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39It could serve as a guide,
0:29:39 > 0:29:43as a template for children to develop into being
0:29:43 > 0:29:47as great at they wanted to be, just like Muhammad did.
0:29:47 > 0:29:49A simple little boy from Louisville, Kentucky.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51He didn't have much but had a dream.
0:29:51 > 0:29:52And he dreamed big.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55And he always believed in himself.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57When you look at the evolution of this man
0:29:57 > 0:29:59and how he came to be who he is today,
0:29:59 > 0:30:04a world-class citizen, a citizen of the world,
0:30:04 > 0:30:06who is loved by people all over the world,
0:30:06 > 0:30:09regardless of where they come from, their religion,
0:30:09 > 0:30:12their ethnic backgrounds, their political philosophies,
0:30:12 > 0:30:17you have to think, what made this man
0:30:17 > 0:30:20and the way he's able to relate to people.
0:30:20 > 0:30:25Muhammad is one who, seriously, believe it or not,
0:30:25 > 0:30:28even though he was a boxer in the ring, seriously avoids conflict.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32He always tries to work out and find a peaceful resolution,
0:30:32 > 0:30:35even if it's in the household. Um...
0:30:37 > 0:30:39And that too the Center will carry
0:30:39 > 0:30:44because we believe that if there's any one single individual
0:30:44 > 0:30:47who is alive in the world today who could bring people together
0:30:47 > 0:30:51to a table, to talk over their differences
0:30:51 > 0:30:54and find some type of constructive understanding and solution
0:30:54 > 0:30:57to the issues that they have with each other,
0:30:57 > 0:30:58it would be Muhammad.
0:30:58 > 0:31:04Do you think, in terms of the Muslim world and our world,
0:31:04 > 0:31:08that you could act as a bridge
0:31:08 > 0:31:10to help bring understanding?
0:31:23 > 0:31:26How many times did you visit Mecca?
0:31:30 > 0:31:37Was it a fantastic and awe-inspiring experience for you as a...
0:31:53 > 0:31:58After September 11th, you made some great statements.
0:31:58 > 0:32:03Do you think our war against the Taliban and against AlQaeda,
0:32:03 > 0:32:07the Taliban and Al-Qaeda, that's really a just war,
0:32:07 > 0:32:11we're right to try and stop terror?
0:32:49 > 0:32:55So, you... You float like a butterfly with that question?
0:32:59 > 0:33:03Who are you most grateful to for your career?
0:33:34 > 0:33:37What way is Allah different from the God I believe in?
0:33:37 > 0:33:40Is Allah different? In what way is he different?
0:33:40 > 0:33:44- Is he more of a man?- Allah IS a man.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47Where your God is probably a spirit.
0:33:47 > 0:33:49Something that you can't see and is harmless,
0:33:49 > 0:33:52somewhere floating around.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Our God is on Earth. Allah is on Earth.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58- Is he?- He's a man. That's why you say God created man in his own image.
0:33:58 > 0:34:01If I make a chair in the image of that chair you're sitting in,
0:34:01 > 0:34:03it'll look like that chair.
0:34:03 > 0:34:07So, God made us in his image. You're telling me God's a man.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10He look like us. And you refer to God as him, right?
0:34:10 > 0:34:13His and he.
0:34:13 > 0:34:17Whether it's a cat, rat or dog, anything of a male sex,
0:34:17 > 0:34:20you refer to it as him, his or he.
0:34:20 > 0:34:22So, if God is a spirit and a spook,
0:34:22 > 0:34:24why do you keep saying he, him and his?
0:34:24 > 0:34:28We teach that God is on Earth.
0:34:28 > 0:34:29He is a supreme being.
0:34:29 > 0:34:31You are a HUMAN being.
0:34:31 > 0:34:34He is a being too but he is supreme over the other beings.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36Do you pray to your God, to Allah?
0:34:36 > 0:34:38I pray every morning at five o'clock.
0:34:38 > 0:34:40My clock rings at 4.30.
0:34:40 > 0:34:42I'm up at five. I take a shower.
0:34:42 > 0:34:46I put my white robe on.
0:34:46 > 0:34:48I put the towel on the floor and I face the east,
0:34:48 > 0:34:50towards Mecca.
0:34:50 > 0:34:54We say, "Surely, I have turned myself to Thee, O Allah.
0:34:54 > 0:34:55"Trying to be upright,
0:34:55 > 0:34:58"to him who has originated the heavens and the Earth.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02"And I'm not of the polytheists.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05"Surely my prayers, my sacrifices, my life and my death
0:35:05 > 0:35:07"are all for Allah, the Lord of all the worlds.
0:35:07 > 0:35:08"No associates has he.
0:35:08 > 0:35:10"This I am commanded.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12"I am of those who submit.
0:35:12 > 0:35:14"O, Allah. Thou art the King.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17"Thou art mine Lord and I am thine servant.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20"I have been greatly unjust to myself
0:35:20 > 0:35:22"and I do confess my fault.
0:35:22 > 0:35:26"So please grant me protection against all my faults.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29"For none grants protection against faults but Thou.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32"And to lead me to the best of morals.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35"For none can turn away from me
0:35:35 > 0:35:37"the worst of morals but Thee.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39"And guide me to the best of morals
0:35:39 > 0:35:42"for none can guide to the best of morals but Thee.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45"O Allah, make the Honourable Elijah Muhammad successful
0:35:45 > 0:35:47"and make the followers of Muhammad
0:35:47 > 0:35:51"successful here in the wilderness of North America
0:35:51 > 0:35:55"as Thou didst make Abraham and the followers of Abraham successful
0:35:55 > 0:35:58"for surely Thou praise are magnified in Thy midst.
0:35:58 > 0:36:02"O Allah, bless Muhammad and bless the followers of Muhammad
0:36:02 > 0:36:04"here in the wilderness of North America
0:36:04 > 0:36:08"as Thou didst bless Abraham and the followers of Abraham
0:36:08 > 0:36:10"for surely Thou art praise and magnified in Thy midst."
0:36:10 > 0:36:13There ain't nothing more beautiful than getting up in the morning,
0:36:13 > 0:36:18brushing your teeth, washing your mouth, removing the sin and evil that you've got from the world.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21Comb your hair, wash the dirt out of your hair.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23Clean your ears - all parts of your body.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26Put a clean white robe on, don't even stand on the dirty floor,
0:36:26 > 0:36:30stand on the towel, no shoes on, facing the east,
0:36:30 > 0:36:34asking the originator of the universe to make me better,
0:36:34 > 0:36:36make me stronger, give me more power.
0:36:36 > 0:36:39This is done five times a day when I can,
0:36:39 > 0:36:41especially when I go to bed -
0:36:41 > 0:36:44another bath, another shower, clean my mouth, pray -
0:36:44 > 0:36:48and at five in the morning, this goes on and when I'm right...
0:36:48 > 0:36:50Now, I didn't do that for the first Frazier fight,
0:36:50 > 0:36:53nor the first Norton fight.
0:36:53 > 0:36:54- Really?- No, sir.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57My head got big and I started thinking it was my training camp
0:36:57 > 0:37:00and my boxing ability that kept me where I was at
0:37:00 > 0:37:02and God punished me and he gave me a good whoopin'.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04He broke my jaw in the second fight
0:37:04 > 0:37:07and he got me whooped and knocked down in the Frazier fight.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09I realised I wasn't that great after all.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12So, I had to get not only together physically but spiritually.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15For this fight, I've prayed every day for five days,
0:37:15 > 0:37:19five times a day for the past...
0:37:19 > 0:37:21four months and everything is perfect
0:37:21 > 0:37:26and if Allah's with me, there ain't no way no man can win!
0:37:26 > 0:37:28No way!
0:37:28 > 0:37:32When I got Allah and Elijah Muhammad, can't no human being win.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35There is no way, no way,
0:37:35 > 0:37:37cos I'm representing God,
0:37:37 > 0:37:40I'm representing the freedom of black people in America.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43I want to be the one black man who stands up and looks at white people
0:37:43 > 0:37:45and tells the truth, who don't sell them out,
0:37:45 > 0:37:48who don't Uncle Tom, who don't promote cigarettes,
0:37:48 > 0:37:49don't promote whisky,
0:37:49 > 0:37:52take his fame to uplift his little brother in the ghetto
0:37:52 > 0:37:55cos all the other movie stars and all the other people that you know,
0:37:55 > 0:37:57like Diahann Carroll, one you know,
0:37:57 > 0:38:00they all a white man, they want to marry a white
0:38:00 > 0:38:02and they all... They don't think black.
0:38:02 > 0:38:05And on down the line, there's many more I could name,
0:38:05 > 0:38:06make movies hugging on white women.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09They get their fame and they leave their little people.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12So, I'm asking God, Allah, to make me strong, not for me -
0:38:12 > 0:38:15don't give me no money, don't give me the fame.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17I want to win so I can come home
0:38:17 > 0:38:20and speak for the brother who's living in rat-infested houses,
0:38:20 > 0:38:23sleeping on concrete in the ghetto, can't go on television and speak,
0:38:23 > 0:38:26so God, I'm your tool, I'm your servant,
0:38:26 > 0:38:28let me get this man tonight!
0:38:28 > 0:38:29And go out blastin'!
0:38:29 > 0:38:31MEMBERS OF AUDIENCE CHEER
0:38:31 > 0:38:33- That's the way I think.- That's...
0:38:33 > 0:38:34That is an incredible speech
0:38:34 > 0:38:38and what you do for black pride is absolutely incredible.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41- This is the way I feel. - What you do for black pride...
0:38:41 > 0:38:42I'm not fighting for me.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45I'm looking at George Foreman, the establishment.
0:38:45 > 0:38:46The flag-waver.
0:38:46 > 0:38:49If he wins, I'm thinking - which is not true -
0:38:49 > 0:38:53but if he wins, we're enslaved for 300 more years.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56If I win, we are free.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58I'm not Foreman, you know that, don't you?
0:38:58 > 0:39:00There's a little forehand. LAUGHTER
0:39:00 > 0:39:04- No, I see Foreman, I don't see a black man, I see you.- Yeah.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06I see, I see...the White House.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09- LAUGHTER - I'm not the White House either!
0:39:09 > 0:39:11I see the...I see something white!
0:39:11 > 0:39:14LAUGHTER
0:39:14 > 0:39:16I don't know what he is.
0:39:16 > 0:39:18APPLAUSE
0:39:18 > 0:39:20Ya-ah, ya-ah!
0:39:20 > 0:39:22Cos I'm fighting!
0:39:23 > 0:39:27I'm...fighting slavery! I want to be free!
0:39:27 > 0:39:31- That's what I'm fightin'!- OK, you can be free. You've persuaded me.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34- You do a fantastic... - That's the way I think too.
0:39:34 > 0:39:36I just don't be fighting.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38I've got to get my mind like this, see.
0:39:38 > 0:39:43I'm bucking so many odds, and a bad man, too much for me to handle.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46I've got to call on the supreme being to step in, to intervene.
0:39:46 > 0:39:49The same with the Liston fight, I did a lot of praying.
0:39:49 > 0:39:52And same with the giraffe, same with the second Norton fight,
0:39:52 > 0:39:54the second Frazier fight.
0:39:54 > 0:39:55Divine power came in.
0:39:55 > 0:39:58If you watched the last round of Norton, the last round of Frazier,
0:39:58 > 0:40:03you'll find that if I lost the last round with Frazier in this fight, I would have lost the fight.
0:40:03 > 0:40:07If I'd lost the last round of the Norton fight, I'd have lost the fight.
0:40:07 > 0:40:13Those two fights I got a supreme power from the supreme being.
0:40:13 > 0:40:14I started dancing, moving
0:40:14 > 0:40:16and anybody that watched that fight
0:40:16 > 0:40:19don't know how Muhammad Ali came back in them rounds
0:40:19 > 0:40:22cos I prayed to heaven and relied on Allah and I DANCED!
0:40:22 > 0:40:23I DANCED!
0:40:23 > 0:40:26I was diggin' and dancing, I was eatin' Frazier up in that last round.
0:40:26 > 0:40:30Ken Norton came back after a broken jaw, dancing!
0:40:30 > 0:40:32He was fast and I was faster.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35So, this fight - I'm calling all everything.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39Not only my physical ability but all over.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41The supreme being, Allah.
0:40:41 > 0:40:46Muhammad Ali's journey away from the more extreme Nation of Islam
0:40:46 > 0:40:50has not at any stage led him away from his basic faith in Allah.
0:40:50 > 0:40:53That remains constant, then and now.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56His concern for his family has, if anything,
0:40:56 > 0:40:59also grown with the passing years.
0:40:59 > 0:41:03Would you like your son Asaad to go into boxing?
0:41:04 > 0:41:05Why not?
0:41:14 > 0:41:15May not make it.
0:41:40 > 0:41:42What do you think about women's boxing?
0:42:09 > 0:42:12Although he wishes his daughter was not boxing,
0:42:12 > 0:42:15the respectful tolerance of that last answer
0:42:15 > 0:42:18says something about the way his attitude to women
0:42:18 > 0:42:21has developed from then to now.
0:42:21 > 0:42:26This was Muhammad Ali on The David Frost Show, in 1972.
0:42:26 > 0:42:27I think a woman's useless
0:42:27 > 0:42:31if she can't produce a man's generation, his future, you know?
0:42:31 > 0:42:36Did I understand you think a woman is useless unless she can produce a lot of children?
0:42:36 > 0:42:37You think...?
0:42:37 > 0:42:39I mean, I'd buy the food, I'd do all the working
0:42:39 > 0:42:42and all you can do is produce the children.
0:42:42 > 0:42:46And this is what his wife Lonnie has to say about him now.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49He likes dialogue and he likes to talk about religious issues.
0:42:49 > 0:42:52And...especially female issues.
0:42:52 > 0:42:57It's interesting because he really likes to challenge you
0:42:57 > 0:42:59on some of the viewpoints on Islam with women.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03Believe me, when you look at who I am today,
0:43:03 > 0:43:04this is because of Muhammad.
0:43:04 > 0:43:08Muhammad has given me every opportunity in the world to be Superwoman
0:43:08 > 0:43:11and sometimes all I want to do is to retreat to my household
0:43:11 > 0:43:14and be a wife and a mother, forget the rest.
0:43:14 > 0:43:18So, I can't call Muhammad a chauvinist in no sense of the word.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20If you hadn't boxed, what would you have done?
0:43:31 > 0:43:33You could have been a politician.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55What's a normal day now for Muhammad Ali?
0:44:55 > 0:44:57Are you very happy...
0:44:57 > 0:45:01happy and content now, your life with Lonnie...?
0:45:01 > 0:45:06Is this one of the happiest times of your life, despite Parkinson's?
0:45:33 > 0:45:36As you look back over your life now...
0:45:36 > 0:45:40is there anything you'd change in your life, Muhammad?
0:46:37 > 0:46:40Back in 1974, when Muhammad was at my home in London,
0:46:40 > 0:46:43he inscribed this message on a card...
0:46:45 > 0:46:48"A man who sees the world the same way at 60
0:46:48 > 0:46:50"that he did at 30
0:46:50 > 0:46:54"has lived and wasted 30 years of his life."
0:46:55 > 0:46:58Well, it's very clear that Muhammad Ali has not...
0:47:00 > 0:47:02..wasted the last 30 years of HIS life.
0:47:02 > 0:47:06What's the thing you would most like people to say about your life,
0:47:06 > 0:47:08"He was a great champion", or what?
0:47:08 > 0:47:11What would you like people to think about you when you've gone?
0:47:11 > 0:47:15I'd like for them to say, "He took a few cups of love.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18"He took one tablespoon of patience.
0:47:18 > 0:47:22"One tablespoon, teaspoon of generosity.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24"One pint of kindness.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28"He took one quart of laughter, one pinch of concern
0:47:28 > 0:47:31"and then he mixed willingness with happiness,
0:47:31 > 0:47:34"he added lots of faith and he stirred it up well.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37"Then he spread it over a span of a lifetime
0:47:37 > 0:47:41"and he served it to each and every deserving person he met."
0:47:41 > 0:47:44- Muhammad Ali, thank you very much. - APPLAUSE
0:47:53 > 0:47:56Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:47:56 > 0:47:59E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk