0:00:12 > 0:00:14- Morning.- Morning.
0:00:14 > 0:00:19Dawn Abbott. She was arrested three days ago and charged with intent to supply amphetamines.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21That'd be a current investigation, wouldn't it?
0:00:21 > 0:00:24It is and there's no mystery, she's admitted to it.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28But she does claim to have new information about a fatal fire in a drinking club in Ealing
0:00:28 > 0:00:32- called the Union, which at the time was classified as an accident.- OK.
0:00:39 > 0:00:44- Can I help at all?- Oh, I was just looking at the various courses.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48- New members are always welcome. - And, erm, these lectures?
0:00:48 > 0:00:54Yes, each lecture is given by a U3A member, usually drawing on experience from their previous life.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57I mean their professional life.
0:00:57 > 0:00:58What did you do?
0:00:58 > 0:01:02- I was a police officer.- Oh, really?
0:01:02 > 0:01:06- MOBILE RINGS - Retired presumably now, with some extra time on your hands?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Not exactly.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15# It's all right It's OK
0:01:15 > 0:01:18# Doesn't really matter if you're old and grey
0:01:18 > 0:01:20# It's all right I say it's OK
0:01:20 > 0:01:23# Listen to what I say
0:01:23 > 0:01:25# It's all right, doing fine
0:01:25 > 0:01:29# Doesn't really matter if the sun don't shine
0:01:29 > 0:01:32# It's all right I say it's OK
0:01:32 > 0:01:34# We're gettin' to the end of the day. #
0:01:36 > 0:01:41August 4th, 1996, the Union drinking club Ealing went up in flames.
0:01:41 > 0:01:43Four people died and seven were hospitalised.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46The people who died were Hailey Wilde, who worked
0:01:46 > 0:01:51behind the bar, Terence Cross, Chris Stamp who worked for this one, Mark Johnson, a local criminal.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Local? That's like saying Heathrow is a local airport.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Well, it is if you live in Hounslow.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59If this wasn't an accident then Mark Johnson was the target.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03- He's a serious player. - Did you know him?- No.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07He had two brothers who I did know, Danny and Karl. Danny mostly.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10I met him when I first joined the force and he was robbing shops.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13No, I think they took over his crew and are still running it, as far as I know.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16- So what are they into now? - Well, drugs mostly.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20They put security in various clubs and bars and then they put their own dealer in.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23According to the original report, the fire was probably
0:02:23 > 0:02:26caused by faulty electrical wiring in a first floor room.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30- It looks like an inferno.- There'd been building work the week before.
0:02:30 > 0:02:34The contractor said he'd used the room to store materials, like turpentine, paint thinner...
0:02:34 > 0:02:38They're accelerants, that's why the fire would have spread so quickly.
0:02:38 > 0:02:41- Yeah, that was the conclusion. - So what's changed?
0:02:41 > 0:02:43We have a witness that claims it wasn't an accident.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46Oh, listen, could you put these in the locker with your stuff?
0:02:46 > 0:02:48- Yeah.- Cheers.
0:02:48 > 0:02:52Detective Superintendent Pullman, Gerry Standing. UCOS.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57You know, according to Dawn Abbot's arrest report,
0:02:57 > 0:03:00she's never been charged with anything before.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04She's got a completely clean record.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07This place must have come as a bit of a shock then.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13I'd worked in the Union for almost four years, since I was 18.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17- But you weren't there the night of the fire?- It was my evening off, I was lucky.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19Not so lucky now though, are you?
0:03:19 > 0:03:22I made a mistake.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25We can't offer you a deal for information Dawn, it doesn't work like that.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28I'm not looking for a deal.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31Why don't you think the fire was an accident?
0:03:31 > 0:03:33Because someone was after Mark Johnson.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37- I never knew who or why but someone wanted him dead. - How do you know that?
0:03:37 > 0:03:40I heard some of them talking about it, days before the fire.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Mark and a couple of the others, Terry Cross was one of them.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46- Who also died in the fire.- Yeah.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50I don't remember who else but they were taking the threat seriously.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53Why didn't you come forward earlier?
0:03:53 > 0:03:55You don't tell tales where I come from.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58You keep your head down, look the other way.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02But I heard Johnson talking about someone coming after him and two days later he was dead.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04Do you think that's a coincidence?
0:04:04 > 0:04:07I don't think it's evidence. You'd have to give us more than that.
0:04:07 > 0:04:10Have you got more than that?
0:04:10 > 0:04:13They said it was an accident, and the fire spread so quickly
0:04:13 > 0:04:15cos there was things in the room where it started.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17- Yeah.- Except there wasn't.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21There was nothing like that in the room, everything had already been taken away.
0:04:21 > 0:04:22Are you sure about that?
0:04:22 > 0:04:28We were storing empty bottles in that room, empty beer bottles, nothing that would catch alight.
0:04:28 > 0:04:34I was in and out of there. All the tools, the paint, everything was gone days before the fire.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37- Anyone fancy a coffee?- Not for me, I remember what it's like.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39It must be odd being back in the heart of the nick.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43- We don't work from home at UCOS.- I meant an incident room, no offence.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46- None taken. - Well, speak for yourself.
0:04:46 > 0:04:48Now let's start again, shall we?
0:04:48 > 0:04:52I was the investigating officer so any questions you've got on the Union fire, anything at all, then...
0:04:52 > 0:04:54Well, the witness statements were sketchy.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57There was no establishment of a coherent timeline.
0:04:57 > 0:05:02There's barely any information about the possible motives regarding the deaths of the deceased.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08Let's take this into my office, shall we?
0:05:14 > 0:05:17Nice place you've got here.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19There are people out there I have to work with. I'd prefer some privacy.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21What happened to the witnesses?
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Most of them wouldn't admit to being there when the fire broke out.
0:05:24 > 0:05:29- Those that did, didn't know anything or see anything.- Why do you think that was?- I know why.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33If you've spent more than five minutes with the file so do you.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35Mark Johnson was a player.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39Nobody talked out of turn. Not to him, not about him.
0:05:39 > 0:05:40Not even after he died.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45This thing was dead in the water from day one.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48So given the chance, it was just easier to write it up as an accident?
0:05:48 > 0:05:50It wasn't just me, forensics pointed that way.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53- Forensics could have been wrong. - I had no reason to think that.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57But you might have done if you'd spent a bit more time on it, dug a bit deeper.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59You don't know what it was like.
0:05:59 > 0:06:04- Operation Horatio had just been pulled, feelings were running high. - Horatio...?
0:06:04 > 0:06:09Yeah, it was a drugs team, set up to clamp down on supply in West London.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Mark Johnson was a name that kept cropping up.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17We had a surveillance team on him, some wire taps, a lot of manpower.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19But we didn't find what we needed,
0:06:19 > 0:06:22not enough to build a case against him.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27Then the brass pulled the plug about a month before the fire,
0:06:27 > 0:06:28it was getting too expensive.
0:06:28 > 0:06:33- That must have been frustrating. - People were angry, I won't deny that.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36And so not too upset when Johnson turned up dead.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39I don't remember anyone crying into their beer.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42They just let it go, Petfield admitted as much.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44Brushed it under the carpet.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46So it's possible that Dawn Abbott's telling the truth.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50If she is, the fire was made to look like an accident when it wasn't.
0:06:50 > 0:06:55And there's nothing in the case file to indicate they found anything else, is there?
0:06:55 > 0:06:58Just a couple of baseball bats behind the bar and a gun in the male toilets.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00It was that sort of place. >
0:07:00 > 0:07:03What do we know about this contractor bloke then?
0:07:03 > 0:07:06- His name was Derek Ross. - Have you contacted him?
0:07:06 > 0:07:09Not possible, not without a Ouija board... Died in 2001.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12But I have traced his wife.
0:07:12 > 0:07:13Oh, gold star for Gerry.
0:07:13 > 0:07:19But the point is, why did the fire spread so quickly if Ross had taken his stuff away?
0:07:19 > 0:07:25I blame Prometheus. Who, according to Greek mythology, stole fire from Zeus and gave it to us mere mortals.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27So this is all his fault, is it?
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Yeah, if it wasn't for him you'd be drinking your cocoa cold.
0:07:31 > 0:07:33Mind, he paid for it.
0:07:33 > 0:07:39He got tied to a rock and had his liver eaten by an eagle, day after day. Sorry.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42It's just a fascinating subject, is fire.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45I'm glad you think so, Brian, you can come with me.
0:07:46 > 0:07:491996...
0:07:49 > 0:07:53- August, wasn't it? - The fourth, you remember.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55I was the lead fire investigator at the time.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58Four people died, I should.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03Plus it was one of my last cases, I took early retirement about six months later.
0:08:03 > 0:08:09- We've recently received information that the fire may not have been an accident, Mr Mackie.- Is that right?
0:08:09 > 0:08:12- You don't sound very surprised. - I'm not.- Why is that?
0:08:12 > 0:08:16Because I suspected it was arson at the time.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18Really? Cos there's no mention of that in the report?
0:08:18 > 0:08:22I couldn't prove it, beside the police had other ideas.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25Would you like some refreshment?
0:08:25 > 0:08:27Thank you.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32Derek was good with his hands,
0:08:32 > 0:08:35he just wasn't very good with money.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37Apart from spending it, of course.
0:08:37 > 0:08:42I have to do a couple of days a week in here just to keep things ticking over.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45At our age we should have our feet up.
0:08:45 > 0:08:50Mrs Ross, what kind of work did your husband actually do at the Union Club?
0:08:50 > 0:08:53He was a painter and decorator, nothing fancy.
0:08:53 > 0:08:55Do you remember the fire?
0:08:55 > 0:08:57I remember what happened afterwards.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01Derek had to talk to the police, he had to sign a statement.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03He must have been badly affected by it.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06Why? It wasn't his fault, it was an accident.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10Of course, it's just erm, what with four people dying.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12He didn't talk about it...
0:09:12 > 0:09:14but I suppose he was.
0:09:14 > 0:09:19- That's probably why he wanted to splash out on a holiday.- A holiday?
0:09:19 > 0:09:22We had three weeks in Florida.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25A lovely hotel, a different restaurant every night.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27Was this soon after the fire?
0:09:27 > 0:09:29About a month later,
0:09:29 > 0:09:32after all the fuss had died down.
0:09:32 > 0:09:39Derek was owed some money from some job or other, he finally got paid so off we went.
0:09:39 > 0:09:45Of course we would have been better off saving something but - oh, no, it was a lovely holiday.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48It was the last proper one we had before he died.
0:09:50 > 0:09:55I can see that you're pretty adamant, Mr Mackie, but I'm not sure I understand why.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58- Do you know much about fire investigation?- Afraid not.
0:09:58 > 0:10:03People will tell you it's a science nowadays, fluid dynamics is what they call it.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05And that's true to an extent,
0:10:05 > 0:10:07but it's also an art.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11A good investigator will have a feel for the fire itself.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13So you 'felt' it was arson?
0:10:13 > 0:10:17That was my first impression when I examined the scene.
0:10:17 > 0:10:21The burn patterns on the floor and the walls suggested multiple points of origin.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24Meaning there was an accelerant present.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26Exactly.
0:10:26 > 0:10:30What about the turpentine and paint thinner that were meant to have been left in the room?
0:10:30 > 0:10:35They would certainly qualify as accelerants, both burn at very high temperatures.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39Then I'm not sure I understand - where did this feeling come from?
0:10:39 > 0:10:41- Smoke.- Smoke?
0:10:41 > 0:10:43And the flames.
0:10:43 > 0:10:48The materials you mention produce a white flame and brown smoke,
0:10:48 > 0:10:53but an onlooker reported seeing something different -
0:10:53 > 0:10:55yellow flame and black smoke.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00And that's the classic combination which is produced when petrol burns.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03- They could have been mistaken. - Oh, absolutely.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06Arriving at that type of blaze, with all the people, there's confusion,
0:11:06 > 0:11:12there's panic but then I also found a small amount of melted rubber on the floor of the room.
0:11:12 > 0:11:17- What kind of rubber?- Well, possibly a balloon, but more likely a condom.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21Well, a room in the back of a drinking club.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25And there was a little wax on the floor, from a candle I think.
0:11:25 > 0:11:27How very romantic.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29Not really.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32You light a candle...
0:11:33 > 0:11:36and then you suspend a condom over it,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38filled with your accelerant of choice.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41The candle burns through the rubber...
0:11:41 > 0:11:43And releases the liquid,
0:11:43 > 0:11:45it's a timer.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48A crude one but it can be extremely effective.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58So Derek Ross came into some money after the accident verdict?
0:11:58 > 0:12:01Enough for the holiday of a lifetime at least.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03Maybe his premium bonds came up.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05The odds on that are about 24,000 to one.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09What are the odds that he was paid to say he left the turpentine and paint thinner in the room?
0:12:09 > 0:12:11Considerably shorter, I should think.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14What about this person that Mark Johnson was worried about?
0:12:14 > 0:12:19We've asked for the files on Operation Horatio, transcripts on surveillance of Johnson.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23May give us some idea of what was going on around him at the time.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28- Was that out?- Yeah, yeah.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30You put that cigarette out?
0:12:30 > 0:12:34Cause that bin's full of highly flammable material, you know.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36That's an inferno waiting to happen, is that.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40'Ere, happy now?
0:12:43 > 0:12:48I hope you're more careful at home, one in three house fires is caused by cigarettes, you know.
0:12:48 > 0:12:52- What about other witnesses? - There were 30 people in that place at the time it went up,
0:12:52 > 0:12:57but according to Petfield he couldn't get more than four or five to admit they were even there.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00None of them would be likely to have changed their minds, even now.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03I found someone who might, David Swallow.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06He was part of Johnson's mob and he was in the Union that night.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08Why would he help us?
0:13:08 > 0:13:12He had first degree burns to half his body and spent over a year in hospital.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14That's as good a reason as any.
0:13:17 > 0:13:23There was only one way out, back down the stairs, through the main door.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Could you tell where the fire started?
0:13:25 > 0:13:26Not at the time.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28It was so sudden...
0:13:28 > 0:13:34One minute everything was normal and then total panic.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37I remember people screaming,
0:13:37 > 0:13:40fighting to get out and the smell.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45I can still even now, I can taste that smell.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48I wake up with it, it'll never go away.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51BEEPING
0:13:51 > 0:13:54Excuse me please, for a moment.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04PHONE RINGS
0:14:04 > 0:14:05Yeah?
0:14:05 > 0:14:09Oh, great, yeah, yeah, bring him down.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18- Are you getting anywhere? - No, most of it's gobbledy gook,
0:14:18 > 0:14:22like Johnson's talking in some kind of patois.
0:14:22 > 0:14:27But there is one name that keeps cropping up in his conversations around the right time,
0:14:27 > 0:14:33Stuart Russell. Well, whoever it is Johnson's not very happy with him.
0:14:33 > 0:14:34Well, I've got that name.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37Here, here,
0:14:37 > 0:14:41here again, all in the weeks before the fire.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44- Thanks.- George!
0:14:44 > 0:14:48- Sorry to barge in uninvited. - Jack, this is George Mackie.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50Ah, the fire investigator.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53- Nice to meet you.- Hi.
0:14:53 > 0:14:58I put down a few thoughts on the Union fire at the time, notes just for myself, for reference really.
0:14:58 > 0:15:03I did so on all the fires I investigated, I dug it out the loft. I thought it might be useful.
0:15:03 > 0:15:07Look at that, thanks very much.
0:15:07 > 0:15:09So this is the control room, is it?
0:15:09 > 0:15:11The place where it all happens?
0:15:11 > 0:15:15Something like that. You're very kind, thank you very much.
0:15:15 > 0:15:16Thanks, George.
0:15:22 > 0:15:27The red ones are for the pain, the yellow are for rejection, the blue ones...
0:15:27 > 0:15:30well, I don't even remember.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32Every day, twice a day.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34I can barely move if I forget.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36We'd like to talk to you about Mark Johnson.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42I haven't got anything to say about him.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44You don't know what we're going to ask yet.
0:15:44 > 0:15:49Who didn't like him, who set the fire, whose fault was it I ended up like this?
0:15:49 > 0:15:52Why do you think it was anyone's fault, Mr Swallow?
0:15:52 > 0:15:54The official report said it was an accident.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58So what are you doing here asking me about it, then?
0:16:00 > 0:16:03I didn't have anything to say when it happened,
0:16:03 > 0:16:05what makes you think that would have changed?
0:16:05 > 0:16:07Time's passed, things do change.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09Mark Johnson's been dead for nearly 15 years.
0:16:09 > 0:16:14- He might be, but his brothers are still around.- They'd be the first who'd want to know what happened.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18- You're assuming they don't already. - You're saying that Johnson's brothers wanted to kill him?
0:16:27 > 0:16:32- What with Mark Johnson dead, Danny and Karl take over the business. It makes sense.- Oh, I don't know.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35What's bothering you?
0:16:35 > 0:16:39Look, they were brothers and not just any old brothers. They were really close.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43You look funny at one of them, the other two are in your face before you know it.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45Families fall out, Gerry.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51See you tomorrow.
0:17:13 > 0:17:18My name is Jack Halford...
0:17:18 > 0:17:22My name is Jack Halford.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24What you doing?
0:17:28 > 0:17:31Fore! Hello, Danny.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35- It's all right Dom, he's an old friend.- Oh, I wouldn't go that far.
0:17:35 > 0:17:36OK, old acquaintance then, how's that?
0:17:36 > 0:17:39- That's more like it.- Here to work on your swing, Gerry?
0:17:39 > 0:17:41No, not exactly, no.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45Well, come and hit a few, Jojo just got a few more balls.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02So why now? What's changed?
0:18:02 > 0:18:06You lot weren't exactly all over it when it happened, you weren't interested.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08No, well, we're interested now.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11We've got some new information.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14What kind of information?
0:18:14 > 0:18:15You know I can't tell you that.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18I do, but you can't blame me for asking.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22Do you know who did it, Gerry?
0:18:23 > 0:18:26- Do you know who killed Mark? - Not yet, no.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30Whoa, bit hookie, son.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Listen, how's Karl these days?
0:18:33 > 0:18:35I don't see much of him any more,
0:18:35 > 0:18:37he likes the sun more than I do.
0:18:37 > 0:18:40Or rather his missus does.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43He turns bright red if he sits in the sun for more than ten minutes at a time.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48So business is good, eh?
0:18:48 > 0:18:53Ah, the way the world is now, everybody needs security.
0:18:53 > 0:18:57You know what the kids are like, always looking for an excuse to start something.
0:18:57 > 0:19:03Yeah, only now of course, you only have to share the profits two ways, don't ya?
0:19:03 > 0:19:08I mean, it's just you and Karl, isn't it? Now that Mark's dead.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10What, you're saying we were involved?
0:19:10 > 0:19:12Is that what you're saying?
0:19:12 > 0:19:14That we'd kill our own brother, our own flesh and blood?
0:19:14 > 0:19:17Did you?
0:19:17 > 0:19:19I think you'd better go.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23Yeah, maybe you're right.
0:19:23 > 0:19:26I'm not on top of me game, anyway. Thank you.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30You know it wasn't us, Gerry, you know that.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34But if you do find out who it was, you should give me a heads-up. I'll make it worth your while.
0:19:34 > 0:19:39Plus, on top of that, you'll save the taxpayer a few pounds.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41Think about it, Gerry.
0:19:41 > 0:19:43Give me a name!
0:19:43 > 0:19:45It'd be a win-win for everybody.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53What's that?
0:19:53 > 0:19:55It's a new smoke alarm.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57What's wrong with the ones we've got?
0:19:57 > 0:20:01They're ionisation alarms, this is an optical unit.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03What?
0:20:03 > 0:20:08Well, it's more sensitive and it's got a carbon monoxide detector which... Ah!
0:20:08 > 0:20:10SHRILL BEEPING
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Ah, switch it off!
0:20:13 > 0:20:15I can't, it won't.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17Brian, please!
0:20:17 > 0:20:20- It doesn't say how. - Oh...- It's not in here.
0:20:20 > 0:20:21Oh, give it to me!
0:20:27 > 0:20:29BEEPING STOPS
0:20:35 > 0:20:37It definitely works.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45These were taken yesterday.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49The man on the left is Danny Johnson, the man next to him is obviously...
0:20:49 > 0:20:51- Gerry.- Exactly.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53What's Standing doing with Johnson?
0:20:53 > 0:20:57Carrying out enquiries, the Johnsons are involved with the Union Club fire.
0:20:57 > 0:21:02- How so?- The Johnson brothers own the club and the oldest, Mark, was killed in the fire. Who took the pictures?
0:21:02 > 0:21:05An officer from the Projects Team on organised crime.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07They've had Danny Johnson under surveillance.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10- Are they getting anywhere? - Nothing yet...
0:21:10 > 0:21:12So, obviously, if you dig something up...
0:21:12 > 0:21:13We all get to look good.
0:21:16 > 0:21:22According to Strickland, the operation's been going on for more than a year.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25Well, either Danny hasn't got anything to hide or he doesn't know about it.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29- Who are the other people? - A couple of heavies and that is some kid called Jojo,
0:21:29 > 0:21:31who seems to be a general dogsbody.
0:21:31 > 0:21:38Now, until I mentioned the fire, Danny was totally relaxed, every shot straight down the pipe.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40Oh, yeah, you must have sliced a few though.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42I did as it happens, how did you know?
0:21:42 > 0:21:44Look at your right elbow, it's all wrong.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46- Why?- Well, here and there.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48Look, it should be pointing towards your right hip.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51- You're right, it's the old flying elbow.- Exactly.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53Ahem!
0:21:53 > 0:21:56What do we think about Danny and Karl Johnson being involved in the fire?
0:21:56 > 0:21:59I don't think so, I saw Danny's eyes.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02There was real hatred there, he even offered me money to come up with a name.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06- That could be a smoke screen, it doesn't mean he wasn't involved.- No, I know that.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09- I don't see it. - If they weren't involved, where does that leave us?
0:22:09 > 0:22:12Well, we might have something.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16We've been going over the transcripts of Operation Horatio,
0:22:16 > 0:22:18the original team that was trying to bring down Mark Johnson.
0:22:18 > 0:22:23He was very clever. He always did business through somebody else, he never got his own hands dirty.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27- When he had to talk to someone directly, he did it in the back of a black cab.- Yeah.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30He'd just hail one down and that's where he held his meetings.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34The surveillance boys wired up a couple of cabs and had them circling the block.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36They got lucky a few times and picked up some conversations.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39I thought they couldn't find enough to use?
0:22:39 > 0:22:43They didn't, but the thing is that a few months before the fire
0:22:43 > 0:22:47the same name kept cropping up - Stuart Russell.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50- Russell?- Yeah. Why? Do you know him?
0:22:50 > 0:22:54No, I don't think so, but I've seen that name recently.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58- Who is he?- Small time operator on the edge of Johnson's crew.
0:22:58 > 0:22:59Oh, Russell, Russell...
0:22:59 > 0:23:04- According to the transcripts, Johnson wasn't very happy with Russell.- Why?
0:23:04 > 0:23:08Well, Johnson was also very careful on those tapes.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12- Everything was hinted at, nothing too overt.- I've seen that name!
0:23:12 > 0:23:14I know I have! Russell!
0:23:14 > 0:23:18- Isn't that the wrong way round, I mean Johnson being angry with Russell?- Well, yes, it is.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22Except that six weeks before the fire, Russell was shot.
0:23:22 > 0:23:26And there were no witnesses to it apart Russell himself and he wasn't talking.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30- And you think that it was Johnson that shot him?- Or one of his crew.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33And he was discharged from hospital a week before the fire.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35That's it! Hospital!
0:23:35 > 0:23:39When we went to see Dawn Abbott, I was signing us in, right?
0:23:39 > 0:23:44- Stuart Russell was one of her visitors.- Are you sure?
0:23:44 > 0:23:46Positive, it's in the book.
0:23:46 > 0:23:47Hey, hey!
0:24:04 > 0:24:07- Mr Russell?- Yeah?
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Detective Superintendent Pullman, this is Gerry Standing.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11We'd like a word, if that's OK.
0:24:11 > 0:24:15- What about?- We're investigating the fire at the Union Club, back in '96.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17What's that got to do with me?
0:24:17 > 0:24:20We've been talking to Dawn Abbott and we know you have too.
0:24:20 > 0:24:21I went round to see her, if that's what you mean.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24- It has nothing to do with the fire. - What was it to do with?
0:24:24 > 0:24:27We're old mates, that's all. We go back a long way.
0:24:27 > 0:24:29- So nothing to do with Mark Johnson then?- No.
0:24:29 > 0:24:32And nothing to do with you getting shot?
0:24:34 > 0:24:37Mackie's got a real eye for detail.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40Everything's written down. Look.
0:24:40 > 0:24:45Ambient temperature outside, wind direction,
0:24:45 > 0:24:48the chemical make-up of everything combustible in the building.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52- It's really meticulous.- Yeah, well Derek Ross certainly wasn't.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56I got hold of some of his paperwork from the people that did his company accounts.
0:24:56 > 0:25:02I'm trying to find out whether that cash he received after the fire was legit, but it's such a mess.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05Well, his wife did say he wasn't very good with money.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07Yeah, well, she was being kind.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09JACK SIGHS
0:25:11 > 0:25:14- What?- Nothing.
0:25:21 > 0:25:27- What!?- No I, I was just wondering why you won't tell me what you're lecturing about?
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Standard investigative procedures?
0:25:30 > 0:25:32Well, not exactly.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35Interviewing techniques, the role of forensic science?
0:25:37 > 0:25:40- Serial killers.- Serial killers?
0:25:40 > 0:25:45Well, they wanted blood and gore, they said that's what people are really interested in.
0:25:47 > 0:25:48Serial killers?
0:25:55 > 0:25:57So what do you want to know?
0:25:57 > 0:25:59We could start with who shot you, Mr Russell?
0:25:59 > 0:26:01You're the police, I thought that was your job?
0:26:01 > 0:26:06You didn't give us much to go on at the time. No description of the gunman, no possible motive.
0:26:06 > 0:26:09I always thought it was a case of mistaken identity, myself.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12That seems fairly unlikely given your record.
0:26:12 > 0:26:14I mean you were hardly a boy scout, were you?
0:26:14 > 0:26:17I was, as it happens, three badges.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20Look, I was young and stupid, it was a long time ago.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23I had a lot of time to think in that hospital,
0:26:23 > 0:26:27- a lot of time to look at my life. - What did you see?
0:26:27 > 0:26:30Not much that I liked, not much at all.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33So I made up my mind to change it, do something different,
0:26:33 > 0:26:37something simpler, maybe, but something I could be proud of.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41- So completely different to what you did for Mark Johnson? - You could say that, yeah.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44How did you feel when Johnson died, Mr Russell?
0:26:44 > 0:26:46I didn't feel anything. Not one way or the other.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48It was nothing to do with me.
0:26:50 > 0:26:51Look can I get on?
0:26:52 > 0:26:56Turned his life around, if I've heard that once...
0:26:56 > 0:26:58Maybe it's true this time, he's not been arrested for anything
0:26:58 > 0:27:04- since he came out of hospital, he's held down a steady job. - Just like Derek Ross.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08For two years after the fire, Derek Ross worked solidly.
0:27:08 > 0:27:12For a minicab firm, a couple of local bars, a take-away.
0:27:12 > 0:27:17Now that in itself is not unusual, but there was a connection.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20Anyone got any ideas what that might be?
0:27:20 > 0:27:23- Aren't you supposed to be telling us? - Gerry?
0:27:23 > 0:27:25- I don't know.- How about you, Brian?
0:27:25 > 0:27:30- Oh, give over, I'm not a bloody guinea pig.- What's that mean?
0:27:30 > 0:27:32He's practising on us!
0:27:32 > 0:27:36He's lecturing at this university of the third age.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38- Oh, thanks Brian.- You?! - THEY LAUGH
0:27:38 > 0:27:42Yeah, well I just popped in to see if they had anything on offer and
0:27:42 > 0:27:47when they found out I was a retired copper, they... I just got talked into it!
0:27:47 > 0:27:50- Good for you, Jack.- Gold star(!)
0:27:50 > 0:27:53Well, go on then, what's the connection between them?
0:27:53 > 0:27:57Well, all these businesses were controlled by the Johnson brothers.
0:27:57 > 0:28:02They probably used them to clean their money. But the point is, they gave Derek Ross work.
0:28:02 > 0:28:07Why would they do that if they thought he was at least partly responsible for Mark's death?
0:28:12 > 0:28:16I expected better from you Gerry, not a couple of uniforms on my doorstep.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20You're not under arrest Mr Johnson, I hope they made that clear.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23- No.- You're free to go at any time. - Well, in that case...
0:28:23 > 0:28:27As we're investigating the murder of your brother, I'd have thought you'd be only too willing to help.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30- Unless you already know what happened.- We had this conversation.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34- Only the first part.- You think I'm going to sit here and talk to you about my business?
0:28:34 > 0:28:36No, no, not your business, your brother.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39We're not looking into activities you may or may not have been involved in
0:28:39 > 0:28:42at the time, Mr Johnson, it's not our concern.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45Anything you say in this room is strictly off the record.
0:28:45 > 0:28:47- I want your word on that. - You have it.
0:28:47 > 0:28:51- Not yours, I don't know you from Adam. I want his.- You've got it.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54We're only interested in the fire.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59Well, we always knew it wasn't an accident.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02We'd had all the right inspections, the place was done up nice.
0:29:02 > 0:29:06But, there was a team of you lot looking straight at us, a special operation.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09- Horatio?- That's it.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12- We were in the cross hairs.- What and you knew about it?
0:29:12 > 0:29:16- Of course we did.- You had an informant within the force?
0:29:16 > 0:29:20All right, all right. Nothing except the fire.
0:29:20 > 0:29:24Now you'd called off the dogs and you didn't have anything on us.
0:29:24 > 0:29:25And then Mark died in the fire.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28And the last thing you needed was another investigation.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30Yeah, we didn't want to risk it, we couldn't.
0:29:30 > 0:29:35So you paid Derek Ross to say that he'd left turps and paint in that room at the Union?
0:29:35 > 0:29:37Yeah, to make it look like it was an accident.
0:29:37 > 0:29:41I mean it was easy enough, he worked in the place a couple of days before.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44He was happy to earn a bit extra. As soon as he told you lot that, the whole thing disappeared.
0:29:44 > 0:29:46Which meant you could go back to business as usual.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49There was nothing usual about it, Mark was dead.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54We turned over every rock we could think of,
0:29:54 > 0:29:56but we just couldn't find anything.
0:29:56 > 0:29:59And because you wouldn't talk to the police, you let his killer get away with it.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03Yeah, Mark knew how it was.
0:30:05 > 0:30:06He would have understood.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10Thank you.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19- Can I help you?- Yeah, can I have...
0:30:21 > 0:30:24- I'll have a packet of those. - This one?
0:30:24 > 0:30:26Down a bit.
0:30:27 > 0:30:29Right.
0:30:29 > 0:30:35- Condoms?- Yeah.- Normal, ribbed, extra sensitive?
0:30:51 > 0:30:53Brian?
0:30:55 > 0:30:56Brian?
0:30:59 > 0:31:02Oh, bloody hell. What now?
0:31:05 > 0:31:07Ah.
0:31:07 > 0:31:09And?
0:31:09 > 0:31:12And I'm getting through them, I can tell you.
0:31:12 > 0:31:14But it's not what you're thinking.
0:31:18 > 0:31:22The fire was started using some kind of timing device.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25It seems simple enough.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28Oh, aye, seems simple,
0:31:28 > 0:31:30but the thing is...
0:31:46 > 0:31:49It's not as easy as it looks.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51How many times have you tried it?
0:31:51 > 0:31:54Four. Each time, the same result.
0:31:54 > 0:31:55The flame just goes out.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58It can't be that hard?
0:32:00 > 0:32:02Have you got another condom?
0:32:02 > 0:32:05Shhh!
0:32:05 > 0:32:08So if anything's not exactly right then it doesn't work.
0:32:08 > 0:32:12And where does this GCSE experiment actually get us, Brian?
0:32:12 > 0:32:18I don't know, but it seems to me that whoever set the fire either got very lucky
0:32:18 > 0:32:19or they might have done it before.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23Just a thought.
0:32:28 > 0:32:29Oh, my God!
0:32:30 > 0:32:34Mr Swallow! Mr Swallow!
0:32:34 > 0:32:36Get out the way, get out the way.
0:32:40 > 0:32:45- 'Over.'- Detective superintendent Pullman on scene at number six, Gordon House, W3...
0:32:45 > 0:32:49- Mr Swallow?!- There's smoke billowing out and we think someone's trapped inside.
0:32:49 > 0:32:52- Is there anybody here? - HE COUGHS
0:32:52 > 0:32:57Gerry! SHE COUGHS
0:33:00 > 0:33:02You all right?
0:33:02 > 0:33:05- Yeah, just a bit of smoke in me lungs.- Is he in there?
0:33:05 > 0:33:07I couldn't see, the smoke's too thick.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12Have a look!
0:33:15 > 0:33:18- What happened?- What does it look like?- I was in the pub.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20HOUSE EXPLODES
0:33:20 > 0:33:22ALARM BLARES
0:33:22 > 0:33:25- I could have been...- Very easily.
0:33:25 > 0:33:28It looks like someone doesn't like you very much.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31Are you ready to tell us who, Mr Swallow?
0:33:31 > 0:33:34- I didn't set fire to the Union, look at me. - You need to do better than that.
0:33:34 > 0:33:37You must have heard of poetic justice.
0:33:38 > 0:33:42- Stuart Russell wanted Mark Johnson dead.- Russell set the fire?
0:33:42 > 0:33:44Oh, I don't know that.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46But how do you know he wanted Johnson dead?
0:33:48 > 0:33:51Because he asked me to shoot him.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54Stuart was branching out, he was dealing drugs,
0:33:54 > 0:33:57but using the Johnson name, they weren't going to have that.
0:33:57 > 0:34:03- Which is why they tried to kill him. - Yeah, but he survived,
0:34:03 > 0:34:04he wanted revenge.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09He hid a gun in the Union, in the gents,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12- I was meant to use it. - Why would you do that for him?
0:34:14 > 0:34:17- Stuart wasn't working alone.- What you were involved as well?
0:34:17 > 0:34:19Up to my neck.
0:34:19 > 0:34:23But Stuart never told anybody, even when he nearly died.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27- So you thought that you owed him for being loyal to you? - Oh, I did owe him.
0:34:27 > 0:34:29If he told anybody, anybody,
0:34:29 > 0:34:34I'd have been in hospital next to him or worse, probably.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37I really appreciate you taking a look at this, George.
0:34:37 > 0:34:41- I'm glad to help. - So, I thought if, er...
0:34:41 > 0:34:44Er, excuse me. This is still a restricted area.
0:34:44 > 0:34:45I'm Brian Lane, I'm from UCOS.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48- And who's this?- I'm George Mackie.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50I used to do your job.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54Well, it was a while ago.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56Special advisor.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59Well, I shouldn't but erm... come on.
0:35:07 > 0:35:08So what happened?
0:35:08 > 0:35:10Why didn't you shoot Mark Johnson?
0:35:10 > 0:35:14I just, I couldn't do it.
0:35:14 > 0:35:18I thought I could but when it came down to it. I just...
0:35:20 > 0:35:23Truth is I bottled it.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25I didn't even pick up the gun, I just left it there.
0:35:25 > 0:35:28Did you tell Russell that you weren't going to do it?
0:35:31 > 0:35:34Did you tell him that you were pulling out, Mr Swallow?
0:35:36 > 0:35:39Yeah, yeah, I did.
0:35:41 > 0:35:47There are obvious signs of flashover, it was clearly an intense heat.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52- What about accelerants?- Nothing yet.
0:35:52 > 0:35:55There was a rapid spread,
0:35:55 > 0:35:57signs of flashes.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01You'd expect there would probably be something, erm...
0:36:13 > 0:36:15- Like this.- What is it?
0:36:17 > 0:36:19It's wax, from a candle.
0:36:19 > 0:36:21Looks like it.
0:36:21 > 0:36:23That's the same method as the Union fire.
0:36:25 > 0:36:29It was there, on the floor, just like in the Union fire.
0:36:29 > 0:36:33- What, candle wax?- Yeah a little piece, a tiny little piece.
0:36:33 > 0:36:37Well, its hardly conclusive proof that it was the same person who set both fires.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41No, but it would makes sense if that person was Stuart Russell.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45Because Swallow agreed to shoot Johnson, then decided that he couldn't go through with it.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48What, and Russell takes it into his own hands?
0:36:48 > 0:36:53Yep, a candle, a condom, a little bit of lighter fuel. Then whoosh.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56Mark Johnson dies and Russell gets what he wanted.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00Except, when we started digging, he became worried that Swallow might talk.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04Well, it's possible.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06You do know Swallow takes a load of different drugs, don't ya?
0:37:06 > 0:37:10- They're prescription.- Yeah, but you don't know what they might do, everything has side effects.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14- We're not here to discuss his medication.- Maybe you should be.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17- It's obviously done something to his memory.- Are you saying he's lying?
0:37:17 > 0:37:20Lying is a strong word,
0:37:20 > 0:37:23more likely he's just confused.
0:37:23 > 0:37:25A bit hazy about the details.
0:37:25 > 0:37:27He seems to remember you getting shot, very clearly.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30And you wanting revenge on Johnson.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32It's a long time ago. I wouldn't take it very seriously.
0:37:32 > 0:37:36It's our job to take it seriously, Mr Russell, and you should too.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38In that case I'll be as clear as I can.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41I didn't try and kill Johnson, I didn't set any fires. Is that enough for ya?
0:37:41 > 0:37:44No, not quite. Let's go back to where you were at lunchtime.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47I told you, I brought a sandwich, I went and sat in the park.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49I like a bit of peace and quiet during the day.
0:37:49 > 0:37:54- Did you see anyone there? - Not to talk to.- That's convenient. - Well, it's the truth, isn't it?
0:37:54 > 0:37:58- Unless there's anything else? - We'll be in touch.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Your theory is that Johnson shot me.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04That's right, because you were using his name.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07- In which case he probably didn't like me very much. - I shouldn't think he did.
0:38:07 > 0:38:10Well, how exactly am I meant to have hidden a gun in his club then?
0:38:20 > 0:38:24- Er, two pints of bitter and a fizzy water please.- Two?
0:38:24 > 0:38:28Oh, sorry, one pint of bitter and a fizzy water. I was forgetting.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32I think Russell's right you know.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35It wouldn't have been easy to plant that gun in there.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38We know Johnson was very keen on security.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41Yeah, but where there's a will there's a way.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43But why would he want to set fire to the place?
0:38:43 > 0:38:46Well, he wanted Johnson dead and Swallow pulled out.
0:38:46 > 0:38:50Yeah, but just by setting a fire, he couldn't be sure that it would kill Johnson, could he?
0:38:50 > 0:38:52There was no way of knowing.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54Maybe he just got lucky.
0:38:54 > 0:38:56Very lucky, as Jack said.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00Do you think he'll be all right?
0:39:00 > 0:39:03- Who?- Jack?
0:39:03 > 0:39:07- Oh, yeah. - What if no bugger turns up?
0:39:07 > 0:39:09No, that's not going to happen, is it?
0:39:11 > 0:39:14- Cheers.- Cheers.- I've been looking forward to this all day.
0:39:14 > 0:39:16How can we know though?
0:39:18 > 0:39:20What if he's all on his lonesome?
0:39:20 > 0:39:24There's nothing we can do about it, he didn't tell us where it is.
0:39:24 > 0:39:27We're detectives, Gerry.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30Yes, Brian, and I'm having a pint.
0:39:36 > 0:39:40Blimey, are all these people here to see Jack?
0:39:40 > 0:39:43No, they can't be.
0:39:43 > 0:39:44There must be something else going on.
0:39:48 > 0:39:54Ladies and gentlemen, if you'd like to take your seats, then we can begin. Thank you very much.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56They bloody are, you know.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02- Oh, come on then, let's sit down. - What for?
0:40:02 > 0:40:04Well, we're here now, aren't we?
0:40:13 > 0:40:15- JACK CLEARS HIS THROAT - Bit of moral support.
0:40:15 > 0:40:17Good evening.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20Good evening, ladies and gentlemen.
0:40:20 > 0:40:26My name is Jack Halford and I'm a retired detective.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28I spent over 30 years as a police officer
0:40:28 > 0:40:31- investigating a wide range of criminals...- He's good, isn't he?
0:40:31 > 0:40:39..including on occasion, individuals who might be described as
0:40:39 > 0:40:43serial killers, which is the subject of today's talk.
0:40:45 > 0:40:50If we ignore the special circumstances surrounding the
0:40:50 > 0:40:57Harold Shipman case, we will find that Britain's most prolific serial killer was Dennis Nilsen.
0:40:57 > 0:40:59- It's not true.- What?
0:41:01 > 0:41:08Nilsen was arrested in February 1983 but his killing spree had started some five years earlier.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10The most prolific killer isn't Nilsen...
0:41:10 > 0:41:13- Sshhh.- It's Peter Dinsdale.
0:41:15 > 0:41:20Erm, Nilsen worked as a civil servant,
0:41:20 > 0:41:23he was quiet and unassuming.
0:41:23 > 0:41:29Not the sort of person you would give a second glance to, and yet he murdered 15 people.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32Dinsdale murdered nearly twice that many.
0:41:32 > 0:41:37After, after cutting up their bodies, he then disposed of them
0:41:37 > 0:41:41under the floorboards and in the drains of his property.
0:41:41 > 0:41:46- 26 people Dinsdale killed. - And, and when, when the police came to arrest him...
0:41:46 > 0:41:49Nearly twice as many.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51I'm sorry, Mr...?
0:41:51 > 0:41:53Yes, you in the coat, Mr...?
0:41:53 > 0:41:56Well, you know who I am.
0:41:56 > 0:41:57You have something to say.
0:41:57 > 0:42:00Perhaps you'd like to share it with the rest of us?
0:42:00 > 0:42:06- No.- Oh, what a shame, I'm sure we'd all love to have heard what you had to say!
0:42:09 > 0:42:11- It was nothing. - It must have been something!
0:42:11 > 0:42:14And what's that?!
0:42:14 > 0:42:18- What?- That piece of paper, that note he handed to you.
0:42:18 > 0:42:23I'm sure we're all dying to find out what was written in that!
0:42:23 > 0:42:26- Well?- No, no, no, it's nothing to do with me.
0:42:26 > 0:42:29Well, it must be to do with you because you wrote it!
0:42:31 > 0:42:33I said...
0:42:34 > 0:42:41- I was just saying that Britain's most prolific serial killer isn't Nilsen.- Really?!
0:42:41 > 0:42:44It's Peter Dinsdale.
0:42:44 > 0:42:48Dinsdale was convicted of manslaughter, not murder.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51He killed 26 people. Are you telling me that doesn't count?
0:42:51 > 0:42:54Not at all, but Dinsdale was an arsonist.
0:42:54 > 0:42:59The deaths were a by-product of the fire, he did not set out to kill people.
0:42:59 > 0:43:01Which is why it took so long to catch him.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05The investigations concentrated on the victims
0:43:05 > 0:43:08and who wanted them dead, rather than on the fire itself.
0:43:08 > 0:43:13And some of them were deemed accidental and they were not linked for years, but the point is...
0:43:16 > 0:43:19The point is...
0:43:19 > 0:43:22this is not the time, nor the place for this discussion.
0:43:22 > 0:43:24Sit down.
0:43:25 > 0:43:28I apologise, ladies and gentlemen,
0:43:28 > 0:43:30now where were we?
0:43:30 > 0:43:33You see, the investigations focused on the victims
0:43:33 > 0:43:37and who wanted them dead, rather than on the fire itself.
0:43:37 > 0:43:42The problem was that Dinsdale wasn't targeting anyone in particular.
0:43:42 > 0:43:46It wasn't about the victims, it was about the fire and what happened afterwards.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50- Afterwards?- Yeah, he'd turn up when the fire engines arrived,
0:43:50 > 0:43:52and he'd stand in the crowd and watch them fight the blaze.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55He wanted to be a part of it, you see.
0:43:55 > 0:44:00He wanted to be involved and that's partly what drove him to set the fires in the first place.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03Thank you.
0:44:03 > 0:44:05Very much.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16- A serial arsonist? - It's a possibility.
0:44:16 > 0:44:21We found seven similar fires, in pubs and clubs, before and after the Union fire.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24But you don't have evidence connecting them to any individual?
0:44:24 > 0:44:28Not yet. We'd have to start again from scratch, look at things in a completely different way.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30Yeah, but you don't have any evidence.
0:44:30 > 0:44:32We just told you.
0:44:32 > 0:44:35I don't mean a theory, Brian, I mean something that we can prove.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37We've already got a solid suspect.
0:44:37 > 0:44:40Well, how did Russell get that gun into the Union?!
0:44:40 > 0:44:43I don't know Jack, we'll just have to find out!
0:44:48 > 0:44:54- SHE RINGS THE BUZZER - 'Hello?'- Mrs Wilde?- 'Yep.'
0:44:54 > 0:44:56Detective Superintendent Pullman.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58I'd like a word with you, if that's all right.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01DOOR BUZZES OPEN
0:45:04 > 0:45:06You took your time.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09- Excuse me?- I don't know what's going on upstairs, but there
0:45:09 > 0:45:12are people coming and going all night, playing music...
0:45:12 > 0:45:15It's not about upstairs, Mrs Wilde, it's about your daughter Hailey.
0:45:15 > 0:45:17We're reinvestigating the fire at the Union Club
0:45:17 > 0:45:20and I was wondering if I could have a few minutes of your time?
0:45:23 > 0:45:25Thank you.
0:45:26 > 0:45:31Hailey had been in some trouble but no more than any others around here.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34The difference was, she wanted to do something about it.
0:45:34 > 0:45:38She was going to go back to college, the job was just to tide her over,
0:45:38 > 0:45:43just weekends to earn some money. She wanted to make a clean start,
0:45:43 > 0:45:46but she never got the chance.
0:45:46 > 0:45:47Did she ever talk to you about the job?
0:45:47 > 0:45:52- People she met, anything like that? - Sometimes.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55She said it could get pretty rowdy in there some nights.
0:45:55 > 0:45:58Did she ever mention a man called Russell, Stuart Russell?
0:45:58 > 0:46:00I don't think so, who is he?
0:46:00 > 0:46:04He was an associate of Mark Johnson's, he used to drink in the Union from time to time.
0:46:04 > 0:46:07- She probably would've seen him. - I don't remember the name.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09Well, I appreciate your time, Mrs Wilde.
0:46:12 > 0:46:19Your child doesn't die before you, they don't do it.
0:46:19 > 0:46:21It's unnatural.
0:46:23 > 0:46:25I'm sorry for your loss.
0:46:30 > 0:46:33Did you say weekends Mrs Wilde? Hailey only worked weekends?
0:46:33 > 0:46:36- Yeah, that's right. - But the fire was on a Thursday.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39She wasn't even meant to be there. She wasn't working that night.
0:46:39 > 0:46:43- She got a call, they needed her to come in.- Who called, do you know?
0:46:43 > 0:46:45Dawn, Dawn, Dawn Abbott.
0:46:45 > 0:46:50She was a friend of Hailey's. She, er, she got her the job.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53- Jojo was sick.- Who's Jojo?
0:46:53 > 0:46:59Dawn's son, his name's John but everbody's always called him Jojo.
0:46:59 > 0:47:03Dawn needed Hailey to work her shift.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10We seem to have a little problem, Dawn.
0:47:10 > 0:47:14- What's that?- You haven't told us everything you know.
0:47:14 > 0:47:19In fact, you've left out some rather salient details.
0:47:19 > 0:47:21- Like what?- Like you were meant to be working the night
0:47:21 > 0:47:24of the fire. It was supposed to be you behind that bar, not Hailey Wilde.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27I didn't know anything about the fire, I swear I didn't.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30But you knew something was happening, because Stuart Russell
0:47:30 > 0:47:32asked you to take a gun into the club. Didn't he?
0:47:34 > 0:47:38Come on, it's the only way he could have got a weapon in there.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41He needed someone on the inside and that someone was you.
0:47:43 > 0:47:46Mark was always wary. He knew there were plenty of people
0:47:46 > 0:47:50who would take a swing at him or worse if they had a chance.
0:47:53 > 0:47:56I brought the gun in, I was on the inside.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58How far inside? Did you know about Ross?
0:47:58 > 0:48:01Did you know that Danny and Karl had paid him off?
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Well, it was obvious when he said all his stuff was still in the room.
0:48:04 > 0:48:07They set the fire and tried to make it look like an accident.
0:48:07 > 0:48:13- No.- What?- Danny and Karl Johnson didn't set that fire.
0:48:13 > 0:48:15You've been pushing us in that direction,
0:48:15 > 0:48:18but that's not what happened. What have you got against them?
0:48:18 > 0:48:21But it's not that though, is it?
0:48:21 > 0:48:23It's what they've got of yours.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26It's about your son, Jojo.
0:48:31 > 0:48:33They'll just use him up and spit him out.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37He doesn't understand that,
0:48:37 > 0:48:41he thinks it's exciting. He thinks he's a big man.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43But he's just a boy, that's all he is.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46So that's why you decided to come forward.
0:48:46 > 0:48:49You believe that Danny and Karl are guilty, and you thought if we
0:48:49 > 0:48:53found that out then Jojo would have to find a new line of work.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55He doesn't listen to me. I've tried,
0:48:55 > 0:48:58but he doesn't hear what I'm saying. And you thought we'd shout louder.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01That's not what we're here for.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08They weren't yours, were they?
0:49:08 > 0:49:11The drugs, the reason you're in here.
0:49:11 > 0:49:13They were Jojo's.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16- You did all of this for him. - He's my son.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20I'm his mother, I'm meant to protect him.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28Hi, Jack, can you and Brian go over to Stuart Russell's place
0:49:28 > 0:49:31and make sure he doesn't go anywhere before I arrive?
0:49:31 > 0:49:33Yeah, and get Gerry to meet us there too.
0:49:33 > 0:49:35Cheers, bye.
0:49:37 > 0:49:39Am I actually under arrest?
0:49:39 > 0:49:42As we explained, we're waiting for Detective Superintendent Pullman.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45Well you really didn't need to come upstairs with me.
0:49:45 > 0:49:48We're under strict instructions not to let you out of our sight.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50What? Both of you?
0:49:50 > 0:49:52- DOOR BELL RINGS - I'll go.
0:50:06 > 0:50:11- You all right?- We're upstairs, with Russell.
0:50:11 > 0:50:14- Where's the kitchen?- Through there. - I'll put the kettle on, shall I?
0:50:14 > 0:50:16All right, good lad. I'll have tea.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19- All right.- I'll have a sugar this time, put it in before the milk.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21All right.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40Boys!
0:50:40 > 0:50:44Jack! Brian!
0:50:45 > 0:50:48- Oi!- What's going on?- We've got to get out of here.
0:50:48 > 0:50:50Jack! Jack! The whole bloody house is on fire.
0:50:52 > 0:50:56- No back, get in there. - Close that door, close it!
0:50:59 > 0:51:03GLASS SMASHES
0:51:03 > 0:51:08Yes, yes, it is 79, Hambrook Road. Thank you.
0:51:14 > 0:51:19- THEY GROAN AND COUGH - Open that window.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22SIRENS APPROACH
0:51:24 > 0:51:26I don't understand it, we didn't hear a thing.
0:51:26 > 0:51:30Don't worry about that now, we have to stop this smoke getting in here.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40All right! Quick as we can!
0:51:54 > 0:51:56This window's locked!
0:51:57 > 0:52:00Get up, get up. Brian, out the way.
0:52:04 > 0:52:07Detective Superintendent Pullman, I'm looking for...
0:52:07 > 0:52:09WINDOW SMASHES
0:52:11 > 0:52:13Stand back, folks!
0:52:16 > 0:52:19I really appreciate you coming in.
0:52:19 > 0:52:21I'm happy to help.
0:52:21 > 0:52:24We've been looking through your notes.
0:52:24 > 0:52:25Were they of any use to you?
0:52:25 > 0:52:27Very interesting.
0:52:27 > 0:52:29Good, good.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31So how's the investigation going then?
0:52:31 > 0:52:36It's taken an unexpected turn, so we were rather hoping we could pick your brains.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38Anything I can do.
0:52:38 > 0:52:44We think we've been looking at this the wrong way, at the victims instead of at the fire itself.
0:52:44 > 0:52:46We've found seven similar fires.
0:52:46 > 0:52:48We think we might be dealing with a serial arsonist.
0:52:48 > 0:52:55Someone who's been active for two decades or more, but that's not really our area of expertise.
0:52:55 > 0:52:59- Which is why we called you.- Well, Arson is a very specialised crime.
0:52:59 > 0:53:00Exactly.
0:53:00 > 0:53:04So, we thought you might be able to give us some kind of handle on it.
0:53:04 > 0:53:09Use your years of experience and tell us about the type of person we should be looking for.
0:53:09 > 0:53:15Well, first of all he'd be meticulous, a careful planner.
0:53:15 > 0:53:20- Obsessive?- Well, others might say that, but I wouldn't. He'd be intelligent.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23He'd have to be to get away with it for so long, and of course he'd have to know about fires.
0:53:23 > 0:53:28How to set them, how they burn.
0:53:28 > 0:53:32I mean using that candle and condom trick wasn't very easy, I've tried it.
0:53:32 > 0:53:34He'd be an expert, all right.
0:53:34 > 0:53:36Yeah, he'd have to feel at home with fire, comfortable with it.
0:53:36 > 0:53:38- That's right. - What about his motivation?
0:53:38 > 0:53:42- What would drive him? - That's hard to say.
0:53:42 > 0:53:44The excitement, the thrill?
0:53:44 > 0:53:48- I suppose it's possible.- Perhaps he was desperate to feel important?
0:53:50 > 0:53:52Important? I don't see...
0:53:52 > 0:53:54We light them, we fight them.
0:53:54 > 0:54:00- We what?- That was the slogan of four American firefighters who were found guilty of arson.
0:54:00 > 0:54:03They'd light the fires, then wait for the call and go and put them out.
0:54:03 > 0:54:08They wanted to be the centre of the action, the centre of attention. Heroes, men who saved the day.
0:54:10 > 0:54:12Is that what you wanted, George?
0:54:14 > 0:54:15Me?
0:54:17 > 0:54:19- You think that I...- We know you did.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24The fires stopped after you retired.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28But then we came to you for help so we were the spark, weren't we?
0:54:28 > 0:54:32- A serial arsonist, it could be anyone.- No, it couldn't,
0:54:32 > 0:54:35it could only be somebody who saw the names on that board.
0:54:35 > 0:54:41Someone who knew that David Swallow and Stuart Russell were part of our investigation.
0:54:41 > 0:54:44You were a fire investigator, but it wasn't enough.
0:54:44 > 0:54:46No, you wanted to turn up and be in charge.
0:54:46 > 0:54:48You wanted everyone to look at you.
0:54:48 > 0:54:52- No.- You had to be in control, the top man. That's what made you excited.
0:54:52 > 0:54:54- No, you're wrong. - You had to feel important.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57FEEL IMPORTANT!
0:54:59 > 0:55:01I was...
0:55:05 > 0:55:08I was important.
0:55:09 > 0:55:11I was!
0:55:16 > 0:55:20- He's put his hand up to setting 63 fires.- 63?!
0:55:20 > 0:55:22Yeah, including the Union club of course.
0:55:22 > 0:55:25How did he know about Swallow and Russell?
0:55:25 > 0:55:27They weren't hard to find.
0:55:27 > 0:55:29What about the Johnson brothers?
0:55:29 > 0:55:33Victims in this case I'm afraid sir, not perps, never mind, we'll get them next time.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35- Oh, Jack, can I have a word? - Yes, sir.
0:55:35 > 0:55:37I heard about your lectures.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40News travels fast, I think it's fantastic.
0:55:40 > 0:55:45- Really?- And it made me think, all that experience you've got up here, all that knowledge - what better to
0:55:45 > 0:55:48do with it than to pass it on to junior officers, new recruits...
0:55:48 > 0:55:51- Oh, no, I don't think it's a very good...- Let me tell you what I'm thinking.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55- A weekly talk perhaps, with a Q&A at the end. - It was just a one off, sir.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57A chance for them to pick your brain.
0:55:57 > 0:55:59It would really be an opportunity to...
0:55:59 > 0:56:03FIRE ALARM SOUNDS
0:56:10 > 0:56:12# It's all right It's OK
0:56:12 > 0:56:15# Doesn't really matter if you're old and grey
0:56:15 > 0:56:18# It's all right I say it's OK
0:56:18 > 0:56:21# Listen to what I say
0:56:21 > 0:56:23# It's all right, doing fine
0:56:23 > 0:56:26# Doesn't really matter if the sun don't shine
0:56:26 > 0:56:29# It's all right I say it's OK
0:56:29 > 0:56:32# We're gettin' to the end of the day. #
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0:56:34 > 0:56:37Email subtitling@bbc.co.uk