0:00:21 > 0:00:23I've had two babies, you see, if you're counting.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28I was 16, the first one.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30A boy from our street was the father,
0:00:30 > 0:00:33though that's a bloody grown-up word for a boy that age.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35Of course, he couldn't marry me.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38He had an uncle who'd made good in Cardiff as an undertaker and was
0:00:38 > 0:00:40going to train him up.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Dad said, "Well, he can probably be trusted with dead bodies."
0:00:44 > 0:00:46Mum didn't like that.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51I don't see the point in coming up with a name for her.
0:00:55 > 0:01:00Dad asked the man at the Home & Colonial to take me on as I'd best earn a living.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Mum said, "Men don't like damaged goods."
0:01:03 > 0:01:05Well, they won't if you call them damaged goods!
0:01:07 > 0:01:09I liked it at the shop.
0:01:09 > 0:01:10All the foods!
0:01:13 > 0:01:14After I'd had the baby...
0:01:15 > 0:01:19..Mum made me sit at the back in church, away from the family,
0:01:19 > 0:01:22to show she was taking our collective shame seriously.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25And that's where I met Michael.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28They were a bit posh, his family -
0:01:28 > 0:01:30well, compared to the rest of the congregation,
0:01:30 > 0:01:33not posh compared to what I met after, through Michael, you know.
0:01:35 > 0:01:36He was new at the church,
0:01:36 > 0:01:41a bit older, but he took to sitting at the back with me so he could make jokes.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44Not to shock me. He knew I was hardly a nun.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48Michael didn't believe in God, but he liked the singing.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51I used to laugh at his singing.
0:01:51 > 0:01:52"Do I sing funny?" he asked.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54"No, I said, "you sing lovely. That's what's funny."
0:01:56 > 0:01:58I says to him, "You should be in the choir."
0:01:58 > 0:02:01But he said he liked sitting with me,
0:02:01 > 0:02:04and that you can't muck about if you're in the choir.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07"Or," he said, "in the case of this choir, sing in bloody tune."
0:02:09 > 0:02:14Two months after he first set eyes on me, he asked me to marry him.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17I didn't see it coming.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19Not because of my...scandal.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21It just hadn't occurred.
0:02:21 > 0:02:22He was my pal.
0:02:22 > 0:02:23We had a laugh.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28And it was his little brother, Charlie, I'd got me eye on.
0:02:29 > 0:02:30Charlie!
0:02:32 > 0:02:36He'd just started in the police, and he had such thick dark hair,
0:02:36 > 0:02:38he always looked like he hadn't shaved since yesterday.
0:02:40 > 0:02:44He's gone to seed now, Charlie, like some men do.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49Dad said it was up to me if I married Michael.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51Mum said, "How soon can you do it?"
0:02:53 > 0:02:54I just thought...
0:02:55 > 0:02:57..well, Alice, it could be fun.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04It was his parents got us the weekend in Brighton.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07We got in the hotel room, and the curtains were shut tight,
0:03:07 > 0:03:10even though it was broad daylight outside.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13"I think they're dropping hints," I said.
0:03:13 > 0:03:14Michael seemed not to hear that,
0:03:14 > 0:03:18and he went and straightened a picture on the wall.
0:03:18 > 0:03:19I sat on the bed,
0:03:19 > 0:03:21and there was a vase of little flowers on the bedside table,
0:03:21 > 0:03:25so I took one out and I put it between my lips, like I'm some sort of...
0:03:25 > 0:03:27Oh, I don't know!
0:03:27 > 0:03:29Only, cos of the dark,
0:03:29 > 0:03:33I hadn't realised the flowers were made of bloody cloth, so I'm sat there,
0:03:33 > 0:03:36all demure, spitting fluff and dust out of my mouth.
0:03:36 > 0:03:37He laughed at that.
0:03:37 > 0:03:38We both did.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42So I patted the bed beside me, like this.
0:03:44 > 0:03:45But he didn't seem to...
0:03:47 > 0:03:50Well, I thought you were meant to get straight to it, see.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52What with how people bang on about honeymoons,
0:03:52 > 0:03:55with their winks and nudges.
0:03:55 > 0:04:00I say people - silly girls who wouldn't know sex from tobogganing.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07Michael looks me up and down, like he's taking me in, and he says,
0:04:07 > 0:04:09"That bedspread is the same pattern as your dress."
0:04:11 > 0:04:15He goes to the window and opens the curtains.
0:04:15 > 0:04:19It wasn't a sea view, but he stands there anyway,
0:04:19 > 0:04:23peering outside with all the specks of dust swarming round his head.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27He must be nervous, I thought.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29That'd be it. That's what I thought.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Well, he'd probably not done it before and, of course, he knew I had.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38So I said, "Come on, let's go out.
0:04:38 > 0:04:39"Out the hotel, I mean."
0:04:40 > 0:04:44We had supper and went dancing at one of the smarter ones on the front,
0:04:44 > 0:04:46which had palm trees and a band.
0:04:46 > 0:04:47He's a lovely mover, is Michael.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51When the band stopped, we were both half-cut.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55Well, half is an understatement.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58So we stumbled back, fell into bed and passed out.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03The second night, he said he felt sick.
0:05:08 > 0:05:10We lived with Helen and Jack at first -
0:05:10 > 0:05:12that's Michael's mum and dad.
0:05:12 > 0:05:13Oh, they treated me nice, but...
0:05:14 > 0:05:18..I looked forward to him coming home of a night.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20I'd stopped working at the Home & Colonial, see,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23cos Mr Barrett didn't think it right for a married woman to stay on.
0:05:24 > 0:05:30Michael would come in, eight, nine, even ten, sometimes.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32A bit of supper, a game of cards.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34He said he was funny about sex,
0:05:34 > 0:05:37what with his mum and dad sleeping only in the next room.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39So...
0:05:39 > 0:05:42I'd lie there with him breathing next to me, gentle enough,
0:05:42 > 0:05:45and his dad snoring like heavy artillery from through the wall.
0:05:47 > 0:05:49Well, it was only for a few weeks.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Now, when we got our flat, well...
0:05:53 > 0:05:56should have seen it - Mum's face.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59Helen and Jack had helped us out, you see, so it was...
0:05:59 > 0:06:00You know?
0:06:03 > 0:06:07Michael got this young handyman he'd met in the pub to come round and put
0:06:07 > 0:06:09up a big new mirror in our bedroom.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12He came round in the day when Michael was at work.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14Nice-looking chap, he was.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16All strong in his rolled-up sleeves,
0:06:16 > 0:06:18and his shoulders when he lifted the thing up!
0:06:19 > 0:06:21I had to stop myself saying something.
0:06:22 > 0:06:26He wouldn't stay for a cup of tea after - he had more calls to make.
0:06:26 > 0:06:31As he left, he stopped in the door to bid me, "Good day, ma'am," and said,
0:06:31 > 0:06:33would I thank my nice husband for him?
0:06:37 > 0:06:38When he'd gone...
0:06:39 > 0:06:42..I stood looking in the mirror. The room seemed twice the size.
0:06:44 > 0:06:45I took my clothes off.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48All of them. Don't know why.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52Curtains were open and everything.
0:06:53 > 0:06:54Dress and petticoat on the floor.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57Come on, Alice.
0:06:57 > 0:06:58Let's have a look at you.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06I can get fat, if I'm not careful.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10Fat on my hips and arms and on my neck, and it doesn't look nice on me,
0:07:10 > 0:07:12like with some women. Course,
0:07:12 > 0:07:16it was natural, with me not being on my feet all day in the shop no more, but...
0:07:17 > 0:07:18All I could think was...
0:07:21 > 0:07:23..well, I wouldn't fuck me.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29Well, it's easily solved, isn't it?
0:07:29 > 0:07:30You eat less.
0:07:32 > 0:07:37One night - this is five, six months later -
0:07:37 > 0:07:40he comes home late, as ever,
0:07:40 > 0:07:44he's a few drinks inside him, and he's got this new briefcase -
0:07:44 > 0:07:47proper shiny chestnut job with gold fasteners.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49"A present," he says.
0:07:49 > 0:07:50"Did work give you that?"
0:07:50 > 0:07:52He says, "No. It was from a friend."
0:07:53 > 0:07:55"You've got nice friends," I said.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01"I have," he said, sort of proud and sheepish at the same time.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05A few weeks later, it was cuff links.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08He was pleased as punch with them till he realised he didn't have any
0:08:08 > 0:08:10of the right sort of shirts with holes in.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14When he came home the next night, I was waiting for him.
0:08:15 > 0:08:18"Is it a woman bought you those presents?"
0:08:20 > 0:08:21He shakes his head...
0:08:22 > 0:08:24..sits down on the arm of the armchair,
0:08:24 > 0:08:27which his mum always told him off for doing cos it puts the frame out of shape.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31"It's not a woman," he says.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35He puts his head in his hands.
0:08:38 > 0:08:39"It's not women."
0:08:45 > 0:08:47I knew right away what he meant.
0:08:49 > 0:08:50It was like the room shifted...
0:08:51 > 0:08:53..like when they cut to a different angle in a film scene
0:08:53 > 0:08:57or like how everything seems to settle different after you step off a carousel.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04So I go from feeling fat to feeling bloody stupid.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09He looks more surprised than me that he's said it.
0:09:12 > 0:09:13I tell him...
0:09:14 > 0:09:17"I can't be your wife, can I?"
0:09:20 > 0:09:21He looked surprised at that, too.
0:09:21 > 0:09:22Know what he said?
0:09:25 > 0:09:26"I'd miss you, Alice.
0:09:31 > 0:09:32"I'd miss you."
0:09:35 > 0:09:38Next week, Helen invites me to lunch.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40Well, I can hardly say I'm busy.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43She gives me a hug right there in the porch.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46She's more, um...
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Oh, what's the word? Er...demonstrative than Mum is.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52And you go along with it but, this time, it's verging on assault.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56She says, "We'll eat in the kitchen.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58"It's less formal."
0:09:58 > 0:10:00Well, it's also the only room in the house that's properly warm,
0:10:00 > 0:10:02so it suits me well enough.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04On the table there's a bottle of wine.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07"I know it's lunch, but I thought we'd be naughty", she says.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10"It's a good one, apparently, so don't tell my husband."
0:10:10 > 0:10:14Calm down, love! I wasn't thinking to leave him a note.
0:10:14 > 0:10:18She's done us chops with cauliflower cheese, which she knows I like.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20"How's the flat?" "Nice, thank you."
0:10:21 > 0:10:25Her napkin's fallen off her lap onto the floor three times, so she gives up
0:10:25 > 0:10:28on it, puts it on the table instead, clenched in her hand.
0:10:30 > 0:10:31And then she comes out with it.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35"You're having trouble," she says.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38"Not me with the trouble," I say.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41"We know how Michael is," she says.
0:10:42 > 0:10:43"Oh."
0:10:45 > 0:10:46It sounds stupid,
0:10:46 > 0:10:50but it is really bothering me that the woman has somehow got cheese sauce on her wrist,
0:10:50 > 0:10:54and she hasn't noticed. And now I can't mention it cos it's not quite the moment.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57"It doesn't mean he can't be a good husband to you," she says.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02"Better that than drink or gambling or illness...or women."
0:11:02 > 0:11:05Thing is, and this is God's own truth,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08I don't give a monkey's what he gets up to elsewhere, but...
0:11:08 > 0:11:10Well, what I say to her is, "If it was women,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13"at least he might show me some interest, too."
0:11:14 > 0:11:16Bugger it! I'm close to crying, but I don't.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20She reaches out her hand to me and, before she can touch me,
0:11:20 > 0:11:23thank God she finally notices the muck on her wrist.
0:11:23 > 0:11:25"He's very fond of you," she says.
0:11:25 > 0:11:30"And so are we." And then - this is my mother-in-law - then she says,
0:11:30 > 0:11:34"If that's all that's missing, can't you just pretend everything is normal?
0:11:34 > 0:11:36"And if you have needs occasionally,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38"I'm sure, if you're careful, you can go elsewhere."
0:11:41 > 0:11:43They'll look after me well, she says.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45I'll have a good life. She says
0:11:45 > 0:11:48I won't have forgotten how his brother's a policeman.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51And it would all be very difficult for him if word got out,
0:11:51 > 0:11:56and how surely, after my own mishap, I, of all people, know how important
0:11:56 > 0:11:58it is to appear respectable.
0:12:00 > 0:12:03I walk home - hour and a half, even though the wind's up.
0:12:03 > 0:12:04I can't face the Tube.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09When Michael gets in - nearly midnight, it is - he sees my face and...
0:12:10 > 0:12:13..he looks like he's just watched his own death.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17"I'm so sorry," he says.
0:12:17 > 0:12:18"It wasn't my idea."
0:12:19 > 0:12:20I just run at him...
0:12:21 > 0:12:25..hitting him in the chest over and over and over until I crumple, and...
0:12:26 > 0:12:27..and he holds me tight.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33"You got so bloody skinny," he says.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40He asks, will I let him make me tea
0:12:40 > 0:12:44and put me to bed and, in the morning, I can think what I want to do, and
0:12:44 > 0:12:46he will help me, whatever I decide?
0:12:46 > 0:12:50Well, I don't have anywhere else to go - that I'd want to go.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55We don't say a word until I'm in bed.
0:12:56 > 0:12:57I'm shattered.
0:12:59 > 0:13:01He gets in, too. I don't stop him.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05And then,
0:13:05 > 0:13:08in the dark and safe, with my back to him, I say...
0:13:10 > 0:13:12"It was your brother I always fancied."
0:13:14 > 0:13:15He snorts into my neck.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17"Yeah, you and half of London," he says.
0:13:21 > 0:13:27He puts an arm round me, his hand warm and flat on my tummy,
0:13:27 > 0:13:28like he sometimes does.
0:13:31 > 0:13:32A minute later...
0:13:33 > 0:13:34..he's cupping my breast.
0:13:36 > 0:13:37Usually, he stays well clear, but...
0:13:39 > 0:13:40..no mistake.
0:13:42 > 0:13:43Feels electric.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48And he shuffles himself up close behind me so...
0:13:48 > 0:13:50I can feel that he's hard.
0:13:52 > 0:13:58My heart's bloody pounding, so loud I can hear it.
0:13:58 > 0:13:59I keep my eyes shut, even though it's dark,
0:13:59 > 0:14:02and I can hear the clock ticking from his side of the bed,
0:14:02 > 0:14:04slower than my heart's beating.
0:14:04 > 0:14:05Everything out of pace.
0:14:09 > 0:14:10But it's nice.
0:14:15 > 0:14:17His hand slides back down from my breast to my stomach...
0:14:19 > 0:14:20..and further down...
0:14:21 > 0:14:22..till he finds me.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26And his mouth is hot on my neck.
0:14:27 > 0:14:28I don't respond to any of it...
0:14:31 > 0:14:32..until I do.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40So, now we were what you'd call properly husband and wife.
0:14:43 > 0:14:44A month later...
0:14:45 > 0:14:48..the doctor tells me I'm to start feeding myself properly...
0:14:50 > 0:14:51..and that I'm pregnant.
0:14:57 > 0:15:02That's Salim over there, just come in - the Arab-looking one, obviously.
0:15:04 > 0:15:05He's very charming.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08Not unflirtatious with me, either,
0:15:08 > 0:15:13considering he usually walks in here with one man and leaves with another.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15I'll say hello in a minute.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17He'll ask what I'm doing in here by myself.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20He's very direct, you see, with his being foreign.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22In here without Michael is what he'll mean.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25Well, why not?
0:15:25 > 0:15:28It's as much my pub as his these days, in a way,
0:15:28 > 0:15:31especially since Violet moved out and that's...
0:15:31 > 0:15:33God, nearly ten years.
0:15:33 > 0:15:34Can you believe it?
0:15:35 > 0:15:36Violet - that's our daughter.
0:15:38 > 0:15:42When she was a couple of years old,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45I suggested to Michael he might bring friends over more often,
0:15:45 > 0:15:47if he wanted.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49Friends or...
0:15:49 > 0:15:50You know.
0:15:52 > 0:15:53Better that than not seeing him.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57Better that than nights in without him.
0:15:59 > 0:16:01He was shy about it at first.
0:16:01 > 0:16:02He'd always been very discreet.
0:16:02 > 0:16:03Couldn't fault him.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06But we soon had men about.
0:16:06 > 0:16:08Still do.
0:16:08 > 0:16:13They come over, one or more of them, play cards, have a few drinks.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15He does very well for himself, Michael.
0:16:15 > 0:16:16He didn't go to seed, like his brother, see.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19Don't know how he finds them.
0:16:20 > 0:16:21Well, who cares?
0:16:24 > 0:16:28I should go. I only came into town to buy theatre tickets for his birthday.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30I know - fancy!
0:16:30 > 0:16:33Me and him and Tony - he's Michael's current...
0:16:33 > 0:16:35friend. Been a few weeks now.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39Older than he usually goes for, more settled, you know.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Then Violet and her fella.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Oh, and a couple we're friendly with - George and Pierre.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48Pierre's not French - he's from Carlisle.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50He said to me once, he said, "Alice,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53"me and George is just like any other normal long-time couple.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55"We ain't had it off in years. At least, not with each other!"
0:17:00 > 0:17:01Last Friday...
0:17:02 > 0:17:06..it was, in the afternoon, when I found out it had become...
0:17:09 > 0:17:13How would you say it? An appropriate subject for public discussion.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16Tony came round, Michael's Tony.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18He'd left his wallet at ours.
0:17:18 > 0:17:24Michael was at work. And Tony puts a newspaper article into my hands that he's cut out.
0:17:24 > 0:17:25"What do you make of this, Alice?
0:17:26 > 0:17:30"The report on homosexual offences."
0:17:30 > 0:17:34The headline's just three words - Crime And Sin.
0:17:36 > 0:17:38"Imagine that, Alice," he says.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41"Two men being allowed to do what they like - legal.
0:17:42 > 0:17:43"No pretending."
0:17:45 > 0:17:46And he goes.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53But, you see, for Michael, it's not like with George and Pierre.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57They CAN do what they like.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59George is an actor and Pierre cuts ladies' hair.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01Michael's got a respectable job.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04It's been nice for him having a wife, having a family.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10Anyway, even if things were legal, normal, even,
0:18:10 > 0:18:13he wouldn't want to go off and live all happy couples with a man.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15Not at his age, not at our age.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20It wouldn't make him happier, would it?
0:18:20 > 0:18:21He's got all he needs.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23Always has.
0:18:24 > 0:18:25Hasn't he?
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Well, this was Friday, like I say,
0:18:31 > 0:18:35so it's cinema night and we were going to see The Bridge Over The River Kwai.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38It was very good, actually, it's our sort of film.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42We don't go for the romantic ones, though there's usually a bit of that, isn't there, for the ladies?
0:18:43 > 0:18:46And as we're knocking back a quick supper...
0:18:47 > 0:18:53..I nearly ask him, what do you think about this Wolfenden report thing?
0:18:53 > 0:18:54Not cos I'm...
0:18:55 > 0:18:59Not because I'm worried, just interest.
0:18:59 > 0:19:00You know.
0:19:02 > 0:19:03But I don't say anything.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05And we go to the pictures and he holds my hand.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09As we're walking home, about halfway,
0:19:09 > 0:19:11without stopping or looking at me or anything...
0:19:13 > 0:19:14..he says, out of the blue...
0:19:16 > 0:19:17"I'd miss you, Alice."