0:00:02 > 0:00:09This programme contains strong language from the start,
0:00:09 > 0:00:16and scenes which some viewers may find disturbing.
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Right, Holly. Shall we start again?
0:00:22 > 0:00:24From the beginning.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32'At me mates', there's no-one standing at the window
0:00:32 > 0:00:33'waiting to kick off.'
0:00:33 > 0:00:36If you like it so much, why don't you go live there, then?!
0:00:36 > 0:00:37CHEERING
0:00:37 > 0:00:41- When are you going to let me have sex with you?- No... No...
0:00:41 > 0:00:43- 'Don't let them kiss you.' - Get off me!
0:00:43 > 0:00:45I don't take my top off, or nothing.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47GLASS SMASHES
0:00:47 > 0:00:48'You're not safe.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50'He's going to kill you.'
0:00:50 > 0:00:51THUD
0:00:51 > 0:00:52MUFFLED SHOUT
0:00:52 > 0:00:56Tell me everything you want the police to know.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59Like who?
0:00:59 > 0:01:01- I don't know what they're going to do to us.- Who?
0:01:01 > 0:01:03The men.
0:01:03 > 0:01:04They do nothing to us.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07You come back home with us, and we'll sort this. I promise you.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09We'll sort it.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25You were saying, about Tariq and Amber...
0:01:28 > 0:01:30Tariq started taking us places.
0:01:33 > 0:01:35He started picking us up and...
0:01:37 > 0:01:39..Amber thought that he was her boyfriend.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44So, what did you think was going on when he picked you up?
0:01:47 > 0:01:50I didn't actually know he was taking us to have sex.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55I don't know if she did, but...
0:01:55 > 0:01:58So, what did you think was going to happen?
0:01:59 > 0:02:01I don't know.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13KNOCK ON DOOR
0:02:13 > 0:02:16MUSIC BLARES
0:02:17 > 0:02:20- What do you want? - Is Amber Bowen at this address?
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Amber!
0:02:24 > 0:02:25Why, what do you want her for?
0:02:27 > 0:02:28Hmm?
0:02:31 > 0:02:33Amber Bowen?
0:02:33 > 0:02:34Yeah.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38We're arresting you on suspicion of inciting girls to prostitution.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40Doing what?
0:02:42 > 0:02:45She's 15. 15 - in a cell!
0:02:45 > 0:02:48- She's being interviewed now. - What for? What for?!
0:02:48 > 0:02:49She's got a solicitor with her.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51I'm her mum! I should be in there with her.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54- I know me fucking rights! - Look, you can either wait here
0:02:54 > 0:02:57- or we'll call you when it's concluded.- She's 15!
0:02:57 > 0:02:59BANG ON COUNTER
0:03:08 > 0:03:12Are you arranging for girls to have sex with men?
0:03:12 > 0:03:14No comment.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20Are you taking money while other girls have sex with men?
0:03:21 > 0:03:24No comment.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26Are you a madam, Amber?
0:03:34 > 0:03:36No comment.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45Your mum's outside having a fag.
0:03:56 > 0:03:58What you done?
0:03:58 > 0:04:00They wouldn't tell me.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02PHONE BEEPS
0:04:02 > 0:04:03Is Ruby doing it?
0:04:03 > 0:04:06Whatever it is, is Ruby doing it?
0:04:06 > 0:04:08- I've got to go.- Where are you going?
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Where are you going?
0:04:37 > 0:04:39Ruby...
0:04:39 > 0:04:42What? What are you doing?
0:04:42 > 0:04:46Where do you go, when you're out with them Pakis? What do you do?
0:04:47 > 0:04:49Um...
0:04:50 > 0:04:52I sit on the settee.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57They give me money for sitting on the settee.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Ruby is pregnant.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19We'll need more tests to check for STIs.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23Are you going to bash my face in?
0:05:24 > 0:05:26No...Ruby...
0:05:26 > 0:05:30- No. Why would you say that? - Cos that's what you always said.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33TEARFULLY: If me or Amber got pregnant before we were 16...
0:05:33 > 0:05:36Come here...
0:05:36 > 0:05:38RUBY SOBS
0:05:41 > 0:05:43Do you know who got you pregnant?
0:05:43 > 0:05:45Yeah.
0:05:46 > 0:05:47What's he called?
0:05:47 > 0:05:49Billy.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51Billy what?
0:05:51 > 0:05:52Just Billy.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56Do you know where he lives?
0:05:57 > 0:05:59Havelock Grange.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01Right. Come on.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Why?
0:06:03 > 0:06:05I don't want him to get into trouble.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08It's all right, you just point at his house.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25Is that his taxi?
0:06:25 > 0:06:26Yeah.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28And is that his house?
0:06:29 > 0:06:31Yeah.
0:06:31 > 0:06:32Can we go now?
0:06:36 > 0:06:38SHE WHIMPERS
0:06:50 > 0:06:53- Bye.- Bye.- See ya.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55Bye.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57Bye.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08KEYPAD BEEPS
0:07:08 > 0:07:09PHONE RINGS
0:07:09 > 0:07:11Hello, Rochdale Police.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14'13-year-old on the child protection register,
0:07:14 > 0:07:17'got a statement of learning needs,
0:07:17 > 0:07:20'pregnant by a mid-30s man with a family of his own.'
0:07:20 > 0:07:24I can tell you his name, his address, his licence plate.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28She's getting a termination tomorrow
0:07:28 > 0:07:31at Millfield Road Clinic, 3 o'clock.
0:07:39 > 0:07:40DOOR CLOSES
0:07:44 > 0:07:46Hello. Ruby Bowen?
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Ruby's frightened of needles.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51She'll be fine.
0:08:03 > 0:08:04- WHISPERS:- It's OK.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38He was doing appeasement.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40What's that, then?
0:08:40 > 0:08:44Like, he was just saying yeah to what Hitler wanted,
0:08:44 > 0:08:47- just to, like, keep the peace? - Very good.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50- Where was he from? - The Conservatives.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54- What part of the world? - Well, that's not in it, is it?
0:08:54 > 0:08:56It's a bonus question.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59Dad! It's GCSEs not a pub quiz.
0:08:59 > 0:09:02Oi, smartarse, how many GCSEs have you got?
0:09:02 > 0:09:04- How many have you?- No comment.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Well, what about what's in there? Did I do all right?
0:09:06 > 0:09:09All right? You got every one.
0:09:09 > 0:09:14And for that, Paxo here's going to make you a cup of tea.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16One for me, as well, please!
0:09:31 > 0:09:33HUBBUB
0:09:33 > 0:09:36- What's her name?- She's so cute.
0:09:36 > 0:09:37Holly.
0:09:37 > 0:09:39I've got yours.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42ALL CHATTER
0:09:42 > 0:09:44Girls, can we have a minute, please?
0:09:47 > 0:09:48Did I pass any?
0:09:49 > 0:09:51You passed them all.
0:09:53 > 0:09:55Every one.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57You can do A levels, Holly.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59You can go to university.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01You can do whatever you want.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04THEY CHUCKLE
0:10:04 > 0:10:06Holly'll be back soon. Don't you want to know how she got on?
0:10:06 > 0:10:09Course I do. I'm going to go and meet her halfway.
0:10:57 > 0:11:00- Tell us! Will you just tell us? - Where's Dad?
0:11:04 > 0:11:05Passed 'em all.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07Every single one.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09That's fantastic, love.
0:11:11 > 0:11:12Dad?
0:11:12 > 0:11:14What's wrong?
0:11:22 > 0:11:24Your case has been dropped.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28There's going to be no charges. Against anyone.
0:11:30 > 0:11:31Why?
0:11:31 > 0:11:35Cos there's an "unrealistic prospect of conviction".
0:11:35 > 0:11:37- His DNA's all over your knickers... - Jim!
0:11:37 > 0:11:41..and there's an "unrealistic prospect of conviction".
0:11:44 > 0:11:45Mum?
0:11:45 > 0:11:47What about all the interviews I did,
0:11:47 > 0:11:49and picking 'em out of a line-up?
0:11:49 > 0:11:51It wasn't the police, Holly. It was CPS.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53Why?
0:11:53 > 0:11:55I told the truth.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58I told 'em everything.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02I know. They didn't think a jury would believe you.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42Thanks very much, but no thanks.
0:12:42 > 0:12:44You don't even know what I'm going to ask you yet.
0:12:44 > 0:12:45I know you've got an operation
0:12:45 > 0:12:48running into sex abuse by Asian gangs.
0:12:48 > 0:12:50What else have you heard?
0:12:50 > 0:12:53That there's a foetus been found in a freezer
0:12:53 > 0:12:55belonging to a 13-year-old girl.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59You've had a 15-year-old locked in a cell for being a madam.
0:12:59 > 0:13:00All sorts.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03It's not good.
0:13:03 > 0:13:05But we've a chance now to put it right.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09We can get convictions here, Maggie, if we can re-engage the girls.
0:13:09 > 0:13:11I've been here before, Sandy.
0:13:11 > 0:13:172004, 2005 - same story, but Manchester not Rochdale.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20I spent over a year getting two 14-year-old girls
0:13:20 > 0:13:23to spill their guts to me about what had been done to them,
0:13:23 > 0:13:25only for the whole thing to just fade away.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27Maggie, you can trust me when I tell you,
0:13:27 > 0:13:28there's a fair wind behind this one.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30You can have a force-9 gale,
0:13:30 > 0:13:33but that won't compel a vulnerable kid into a witness box.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37I know that. Which is why I need you.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40Come on, Maggie. Let me just show you the file.
0:13:45 > 0:13:46File?
0:13:46 > 0:13:49All right - FILES.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52Amber and Ruby Bowen.
0:13:52 > 0:13:53Amber of the jail cell.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56Ruby of the foetus.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59They're key to this, and we need 'em. Both of 'em.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02They're both victims of the same group of men.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05But Amber was arrested?
0:14:05 > 0:14:06She was, yeah.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08Other kids thought she was in control.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12Maybe she even thought she was in control but, of course, she wasn't.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14- The men were. - She was never charged
0:14:14 > 0:14:18- And Ruby?- Well, we've got Forensics with the foetus
0:14:18 > 0:14:21that leads us right to the perpetrator...
0:14:21 > 0:14:26if we can get her consent for us having it in the first place.
0:14:26 > 0:14:30So, she doesn't know that we have it or that it was ever taken?
0:14:30 > 0:14:33I'm not going to lie to you, Maggie. It's a mess.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36Rochdale's had trouble with on-street grooming going way back,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39and even when they had a cracking case -
0:14:39 > 0:14:42kid called Holly Winshaw - they never got it to trial.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Now the IPCC are investigating their failings.
0:14:45 > 0:14:46How many victims?
0:14:46 > 0:14:4847.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50They're drowning in it.
0:14:50 > 0:14:55My priority is to reopen every one of these cases.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58And re-engage the girls.
0:15:01 > 0:15:02Adil Khan.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04Shabir Ahmed, Abdul Aziz.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07Kabeer Hasan. Mohammed Sajid.
0:15:07 > 0:15:09Mohammed Amin. Abdul Raulf.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12Abdul Qayyum. Hamid Safi.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Anya Miah - we don't need to bother about him, cos he's in jail already.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19- What for, sir?- Child abuse charges going back to the 1980s.
0:15:19 > 0:15:23He was a fugitive from the law when he did what he did to these girls.
0:15:23 > 0:15:24He got 15 years,
0:15:24 > 0:15:27so he's out the way.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30'I want the rest of these individuals arrested.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33'I want them taken to separate police stations to be interviewed,
0:15:33 > 0:15:35'and I want their houses searched.
0:15:35 > 0:15:38'The press know we've an operation running.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41'They've agreed to a news embargo till the new year.'
0:15:41 > 0:15:44You don't have to get hold of me.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46'If your role is with victims,
0:15:46 > 0:15:48'then I want you planning your approach with Peter Boyd,'
0:15:48 > 0:15:50who's a specialist interview advisor.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53I know Mr Guthrie will have belaboured the point,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56but I am going to hammer it home some more.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59This entire operation stands and falls
0:15:59 > 0:16:02on us being able to re-engage these girls.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05They were children who were raped and abused,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08and when they went to the police nothing was done about it.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11What this investigation needs, more than anything, is open minds.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14I want you going out there thinking of these girls
0:16:14 > 0:16:17as your own kids or grandkids.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20Cos if it was your own, you'd be torn to pieces.
0:16:24 > 0:16:25Why?
0:16:25 > 0:16:29- Why now? - Mr Winshaw is Holly at home?
0:16:29 > 0:16:32She's in a mother-and-baby hostel.
0:16:32 > 0:16:33I've got three other kids in there,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36and I can't have Holly ripping a hole
0:16:36 > 0:16:37in the middle of this house.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41And do you know who I blame for that?
0:16:41 > 0:16:43Whose fault it is that she's in pieces
0:16:43 > 0:16:46and seems determined to stay that way? You.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48All of you.
0:16:52 > 0:16:54KNOCK ON DOOR
0:16:56 > 0:16:59I'm Maggie Oliver. I'm a detective with Greater Manchester Police.
0:16:59 > 0:17:00This is Detective John Duff.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02I'd like to talk to you and the girls.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05- They're not here. - Who is it? >
0:17:05 > 0:17:06Mum!
0:17:06 > 0:17:09Who are you? What are you saying they've done?
0:17:09 > 0:17:11We're not saying they've done anything.
0:17:11 > 0:17:12Far from it. We need their help.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15We're here because they were both victims of offences.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18Just fucking answer me when I ask you! Who the fuck are they?!
0:17:18 > 0:17:20Stay in the house.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23- For fuck's sake, what are you doing? - Get in!- Fuck...
0:17:23 > 0:17:25LOCKS CLICK
0:17:25 > 0:17:28Greater Manchester Police are reopening an investigation
0:17:28 > 0:17:29into what went on. We've come to ask
0:17:29 > 0:17:31if they'd be prepared to make statements.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33What do you think you're doing, coming to my door now?
0:17:33 > 0:17:36I understand you weren't expecting us, but we're...
0:17:36 > 0:17:39Expecting you? Why would I be expecting you?
0:17:39 > 0:17:42You knew what were going on and what did you do?
0:17:42 > 0:17:44Arrest me daughter for being a pimp.
0:17:44 > 0:17:46No-one bothered.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48Except that Sara at Sexual Health.
0:17:48 > 0:17:50None of you...
0:17:51 > 0:17:54We want nothing to do with any of you.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58So don't come near, cos we are giving you nothing!
0:18:02 > 0:18:05- What are you doing? - I'm not doing nothing.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07- Why you shouting at me? - I'm not shouting at you!
0:18:07 > 0:18:09Just fuck off! Fuck off! Fuck OFF!
0:18:22 > 0:18:23CHATTER
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Sara...
0:18:29 > 0:18:31I'm DC Maggie Oliver.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34I'm a detective with Greater Manchester Police.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37OK.
0:18:37 > 0:18:39GMP's running an operation, Operation Span,
0:18:39 > 0:18:42to put right what went wrong at Rochdale
0:18:42 > 0:18:45in relation to the grooming of young girls.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49I understand that you made several referrals to the police
0:18:49 > 0:18:54in relation to two girls in particular, Amber and Ruby Bowen.
0:18:54 > 0:18:57So, I'm here in the hope that you might have some
0:18:57 > 0:19:00relevant intelligence in relation to them.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12I... I've...got the car, so,
0:19:12 > 0:19:15um, if there are files, I can take 'em now.
0:19:19 > 0:19:20Fuck off.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25No, really.
0:19:25 > 0:19:26I mean it.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28Fuck off!
0:19:31 > 0:19:32I've been in here,
0:19:32 > 0:19:34sat in here,
0:19:34 > 0:19:35for years,
0:19:35 > 0:19:38and what you're demanding off me now
0:19:38 > 0:19:42I couldn't pay you lot to look at for years.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46And what, you swan in here off the street with your Prada handbag
0:19:46 > 0:19:50telling me to hand it over like you were asking to check me gas meter?
0:19:50 > 0:19:52- I understand...- Oh, no, you don't.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56You really, really don't.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01What those girls have been telling me for years
0:20:01 > 0:20:03I have been powerless to do anything about
0:20:03 > 0:20:06BECAUSE you lot didn't want to know.
0:20:06 > 0:20:07Well, we want to know now.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10This is the biggest operation GMP's running.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13What do you think been happening to those girls in the meantime?
0:20:13 > 0:20:18Raped, beaten, not believed. Raped, beaten, not believed.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22What do you think that does to a kid?
0:20:24 > 0:20:27Do you think they're sitting round waiting to do their civic duty
0:20:27 > 0:20:29because you lot have got your act together?
0:20:30 > 0:20:34If you want documents off me, make an application.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Fill out a form. Do whatever official thing it is you coppers
0:20:37 > 0:20:40have to do when you're after evidence.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42But don't rock up here after all these years,
0:20:42 > 0:20:46acting like you're the saviour of the family!
0:21:06 > 0:21:09SHE SNIFFLES
0:21:09 > 0:21:12Here's your little bunny. Here you go.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Here he is.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Holly...
0:21:19 > 0:21:24when you went to the police about Tariq and Daddy and those other men,
0:21:24 > 0:21:26the CPS made a decision not to prosecute.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31But now there's a new team of police working on the kind of crime
0:21:31 > 0:21:33you were a victim of.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35We want to reopen your case and bring these men to trial.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39So, you want me to help you?
0:21:39 > 0:21:41Yeah, we do.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44When you NEVER helped me.
0:21:46 > 0:21:47Why would I do that?
0:21:50 > 0:21:53Because you come here and you sit, being nice to me baby?
0:21:55 > 0:21:57Why don't you try taking me to McDonald's?
0:21:58 > 0:22:01Or is it just social workers who do that?
0:22:02 > 0:22:05- It's pathetic. - I just want to talk to you, Holly.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09- The police just want to talk to you. - I've talked to 'em.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13I've talked to 'em and talked to 'em
0:22:13 > 0:22:16and talked to 'em and talked to 'em.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20And then they turn round and call me a liar.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29- Are you Margaret Oliver? - I am, yeah.
0:22:32 > 0:22:36From Sara Rowbotham, Rochdale Sexual Health.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39There's two more down the hall.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55There aren't 47 girls.
0:22:55 > 0:22:57There's hundreds of 'em.
0:22:57 > 0:23:01She's got names, addresses, reg plates.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04Multiple girls reporting the same perpetrators.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07Why the hell didn't Rochdale CID have these files?
0:23:07 > 0:23:08Because they didn't want 'em.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11What do you mean, they didn't want them? It's bloody evidence.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13Not according to them.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15Sexual Health made hundreds of referrals to the police
0:23:15 > 0:23:17and they got the same response every time.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20"This isn't evidence, Sara, it's just intelligence,
0:23:20 > 0:23:23"and it's not something for us to do anything about."
0:23:26 > 0:23:28No wonder she wiped the floor with me.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33Operation Stable Door, this.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35The girls will just not talk to us.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38We've underestimated how fragile they are
0:23:38 > 0:23:42and the level of anger and betrayal they feel towards the police.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49Well, because this is a live investigation
0:23:49 > 0:23:51for Greater Manchester Police,
0:23:51 > 0:23:53detectives are keeping their cards pretty close to their chests,
0:23:53 > 0:23:57but what we do know is that nine arrests were made here in Rochdale
0:23:57 > 0:24:00just before Christmas over allegations
0:24:00 > 0:24:03concerning the sexual exploitation of teenage girls.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06Now, we understand that all the men are Asian,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09and that all the girls involved are white.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11The arrests were made
0:24:11 > 0:24:14on suspicion of allowing premises to be used for prostitution,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16of inciting child prostitution,
0:24:16 > 0:24:19suspicion of rape and sexual activity with a child.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22The nine men have been released on bail
0:24:22 > 0:24:25while police investigate the allegations.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29Hannah, am I right in thinking that these are not new allegations?
0:24:29 > 0:24:32Well, these allegations were made to Rochdale police in 2008,
0:24:32 > 0:24:34however, the case was dropped
0:24:34 > 0:24:37and none of the complaints against these men ever made it to trial.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39This is something Greater Manchester Police
0:24:39 > 0:24:42is going to have to grapple with as the police's own watchdog,
0:24:42 > 0:24:44the Independent Police Complaints Commission
0:24:44 > 0:24:47has been brought in to look at what happened.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49It's early days yet for that inquiry
0:24:49 > 0:24:53but we do know there are concerns within Greater Manchester Police
0:24:53 > 0:24:57about the standard and the quality of the earlier investigation.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06What do you think you're going to find?
0:25:06 > 0:25:08I'm not a total fucking moron.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10You know the score, Holly.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12Sobriety is a condition of you keeping Ella.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15That's why we do these spot checks.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18I could be arseholed right now and you lot wouldn't have a clue.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22- Are you?- Course I'm fucking not!
0:25:25 > 0:25:28You're not helping yourself. Or her.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31You're a pointless fucking bitch. Do you know that?
0:25:36 > 0:25:39ELLA BABBLES
0:25:41 > 0:25:43This is Emily Stone from the CPS,
0:25:43 > 0:25:46who'll be working alongside us at Span from here on in.
0:25:46 > 0:25:50There's a couple of cases where the evidence is already there.
0:25:50 > 0:25:51Holly Winshaw.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53Ruby Bowen, Amber Bowen.
0:25:53 > 0:25:55They've told us where to go, I know that,
0:25:55 > 0:25:57but we need to approach them again.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59I just don't think a family like the Bowens
0:25:59 > 0:26:01would cooperate with us in a month of Sundays.
0:26:01 > 0:26:03- What's the obstacle?- It's that.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07It's that, John. It's THAT attitude.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10"A family like that." That's the obstacle.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14Lorna can smell that off us as soon as look at us
0:26:14 > 0:26:16because everyone in authority treats her like that.
0:26:16 > 0:26:18It's...
0:26:18 > 0:26:20It's not brain surgery, this.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22We treat them as human beings,
0:26:22 > 0:26:24and we say we're sorry.
0:26:27 > 0:26:28'Hello?'
0:26:28 > 0:26:30Oh, hi, Lorna.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32'Who is this?'
0:26:32 > 0:26:34'It's Maggie Oliver, we met a couple of weeks ago
0:26:34 > 0:26:37'when I came around your house to talk to you about the girls.'
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Hello, can you hear me?
0:26:40 > 0:26:42'What do you want? Look, I told you...'
0:26:42 > 0:26:44Yep, I know you did.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46And I'm not surprised, because if I were you and a copper
0:26:46 > 0:26:50'came round to my door, I'd want to hose them off the pavement. But...
0:26:50 > 0:26:54'I'd like another chance to talk to you.'
0:26:54 > 0:26:57What happened to your girls is a disgrace.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59What we LET happen.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02But we've got a chance to put it right.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06Ring me next week.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10Who's ringing you next week?
0:27:10 > 0:27:12Just someone from housing.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18TV: 'And the lead in the Times says
0:27:18 > 0:27:22'a culture of silence that has facilitated the sexual exploitation
0:27:22 > 0:27:24'of hundreds of young British girls
0:27:24 > 0:27:26'by criminal pimping gangs is exposed by the paper.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29'Today a pattern of abuse across the North and the Midlands is...'
0:27:29 > 0:27:33- RADIO:- 'The Times is pursuing a revelation in the paper
0:27:33 > 0:27:36'that there is sexual exploitation of hundreds of young girls...'
0:27:36 > 0:27:39- RADIO:- The Times newspaper identified 17 prosecutions
0:27:39 > 0:27:42'of street grooming over the past 14 years
0:27:42 > 0:27:45'and it said of the 56 convicted in those cases,
0:27:45 > 0:27:47'53 were Asian.'
0:27:51 > 0:27:53Mags... Mags! A word?
0:27:57 > 0:27:58Have you seen the papers?
0:27:58 > 0:28:00It's all eyes on us.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03The Times is saying the failures in Rochdale happened
0:28:03 > 0:28:07because police were scared of upsetting racial sensitivities.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11Well, if those men come back off bail
0:28:11 > 0:28:13and we can't charge them with anything,
0:28:13 > 0:28:15there's going to be riots.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34They don't know I'm meeting you, you know. Neither of 'em.
0:28:35 > 0:28:38Amber don't like to think about that time.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40Does she ever talk about it?
0:28:40 > 0:28:41Not to me.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43Never.
0:28:45 > 0:28:46Lorna...
0:28:46 > 0:28:49we've got Ruby's foetus.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54When she had the termination, it was seized by the police.
0:28:57 > 0:29:00- Why?- So that they could test it
0:29:00 > 0:29:03and get a DNA match with the bloke that got her pregnant.
0:29:03 > 0:29:07They got the match, but they didn't do any more about it then.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11But we can now, if Ruby gives her permission
0:29:11 > 0:29:14to let us use those DNA results in court.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18Sorry...
0:29:20 > 0:29:23There's a real chance that we can get this man put away,
0:29:23 > 0:29:25and all the others,
0:29:25 > 0:29:28if we can get the girls to talk.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31You don't understand. Amber, she knows it were wrong.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34But Ruby, she'll never talk to you.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37Still thinks them blokes were friends.
0:29:37 > 0:29:42If she sees them in the street, she... She waves.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45LORNA SOBS
0:29:47 > 0:29:51Amber's got to live in 'ere cos of Ruby's anger problems.
0:29:51 > 0:29:53She can't be at home wi' me.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59KNOCK ON DOOR
0:29:59 > 0:30:01BABY CRIES
0:30:04 > 0:30:05Hiya.
0:30:05 > 0:30:09BABY CRIES
0:30:19 > 0:30:21She's not herself today.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23Are you?
0:30:24 > 0:30:26What's wrong with her?
0:30:26 > 0:30:29She's not going to toilet.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32If you lie her on a blanket and cycle her legs,
0:30:32 > 0:30:35sometimes that can help move things along.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38I've never heard of that before.
0:30:38 > 0:30:39Have you, Amber?
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Worked with my four, and me grandsons -
0:30:43 > 0:30:46except for one, who I think holds it in just to spite me.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48LORNA CHUCKLES
0:30:51 > 0:30:53- You're a cop?- Yeah.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55Coming on 20 years now.
0:30:55 > 0:30:57When my kids went to school,
0:30:57 > 0:30:58I went to uni
0:30:58 > 0:31:01and, um, then I joined the force.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04I'm not going in any police station.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06You wouldn't have to.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08There's a special unit in Bury.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11It's for victims.
0:31:11 > 0:31:14That's what you were.
0:31:14 > 0:31:15A victim.
0:31:15 > 0:31:17One of many.
0:31:17 > 0:31:22And we'd support you, as a victim, all the way through to trial.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25They'll kill me if I say owt to police.
0:31:27 > 0:31:29They don't know where you live.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32Take 'em five seconds to find out.
0:31:32 > 0:31:34I see 'em on the streets.
0:31:34 > 0:31:36If I go out.
0:31:36 > 0:31:37Which I don't.
0:31:37 > 0:31:42So, you're stuck in here, in a homeless hostel with a newborn...
0:31:43 > 0:31:46..while they're out there, free to go on about their lives.
0:32:05 > 0:32:07When did you move out your mum and dad's?
0:32:07 > 0:32:09Couple of months ago.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11Too much fighting with me dad.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15He's just mad at everything.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18Mad at me,
0:32:18 > 0:32:21mad at the police, mad at CPS.
0:32:21 > 0:32:23He joined BNP.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26- Did he?- Yeah. Then left it again.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29Mad at them, probably.
0:32:33 > 0:32:37Anyway, he's right that there's no-one's stood over me,
0:32:37 > 0:32:42forcing me to neck a bottle of cider every night.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46It's not as simple as that, though, is it?
0:32:46 > 0:32:48He was like, "Right, Holly,
0:32:48 > 0:32:52"they've washed their hands of you, move on.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55"No-one's going to do owt for you."
0:32:55 > 0:32:57They didn't then.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59But they want to now.
0:33:01 > 0:33:03What's the point?
0:33:03 > 0:33:05It were years ago.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08Does it feel like years ago?
0:33:16 > 0:33:17- Sir?- Yeah.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20Holly Winshaw's on board.
0:33:20 > 0:33:23Thank God for that. Well done, Nina.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25Oh, it wasn't me, sir. It was Sara.
0:33:25 > 0:33:26Holly trusts her.
0:33:26 > 0:33:28Right.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31Let's go after these bastards.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33At last, we've a number of girls
0:33:33 > 0:33:35who've agreed to be interviewed.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37But it's the quality of those interviews
0:33:37 > 0:33:41that's going to make or break our case with the CPS.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44Memory degrades like tape degrades.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47They won't, off the tops of their heads,
0:33:47 > 0:33:50remember names, addresses -
0:33:50 > 0:33:52because they were drunk, yes -
0:33:52 > 0:33:54but mainly because they don't want to.
0:33:54 > 0:33:56Every time you ask a question,
0:33:56 > 0:33:58you are re-traumatising them.
0:33:58 > 0:34:02You're bringing them back there. But there's no other way.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06- 'Because these girls' memories...' - Hiya.- '..That's our crime scene.'
0:34:07 > 0:34:09Hiya.
0:34:09 > 0:34:11You all right?
0:34:11 > 0:34:13Hiya, little girl.
0:34:15 > 0:34:17Oh!
0:34:17 > 0:34:18Ohh!
0:34:18 > 0:34:21Aren't you sweet!
0:34:23 > 0:34:26Cameras, so we've got your evidence to play at court.
0:34:26 > 0:34:28I know. I've been here before.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30Course you have.
0:34:40 > 0:34:42SHE CLEARS HER THROAT So...
0:34:42 > 0:34:45What I want you to do now, Holly,
0:34:45 > 0:34:47is start right at the beginning.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51Tell me, in as much detail as you can,
0:34:51 > 0:34:53everything that's happened.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59Amber...
0:35:02 > 0:35:05In the files, back at the office,
0:35:05 > 0:35:07there was this, um,
0:35:07 > 0:35:11list of names that you wrote out for Gregory,
0:35:11 > 0:35:14that social worker that you saw for a bit last year.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17Do you remember telling him about those names?
0:35:17 > 0:35:20Your mum said that he left shortly after that.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27You must have felt very let down.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31Thing is, those names.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35They're a really important piece of evidence, and, um...
0:35:37 > 0:35:39..maybe we can build on it.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42Maybe you and me,
0:35:42 > 0:35:44we can make something of it.
0:36:13 > 0:36:14He said, "Don't cry."
0:36:17 > 0:36:19And he said, "You're beautiful."
0:36:20 > 0:36:23And when he was on top of you,
0:36:23 > 0:36:25what was you doing?
0:36:25 > 0:36:28I were trying to move, but...
0:36:29 > 0:36:31..I just gave up.
0:36:32 > 0:36:34Cos what's the point in trying?
0:37:13 > 0:37:17DC Margaret Oliver interviewing Amber Bowen.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21Amber...
0:37:22 > 0:37:26..can you tell me about when you went to the kebab shops?
0:37:31 > 0:37:35Everything that bitch did, she did free willingly.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38That fucking sket Holly Winshaw.
0:37:39 > 0:37:41Lying fucking bitch.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47The list that you gave Gregory,
0:37:47 > 0:37:49the social worker who was around for a while,
0:37:49 > 0:37:53that was a list of lots of men, wasn't it?
0:37:54 > 0:37:57Addresses of lots of different flats.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00They never touched me.
0:38:04 > 0:38:08They actually never touched me unless I wanted them to touch me.
0:38:31 > 0:38:34Will you be all right on your own?
0:38:34 > 0:38:37Me mum's bringing Yasmin back in a minute.
0:38:39 > 0:38:41First one's the hardest
0:38:41 > 0:38:45because you're opening up that box that's locked in your head.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47It'll get easier.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27BABY CRIES
0:39:31 > 0:39:34No... No!
0:39:35 > 0:39:38BABY CRIES
0:39:42 > 0:39:44Can you let me in please, Holly? >
0:39:44 > 0:39:46KNOCK AT DOOR
0:39:48 > 0:39:50DOOR OPENS
0:39:50 > 0:39:52BABY CRIES
0:39:58 > 0:40:01It's jackboot tactics, is what it is.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04She's safe and happy here.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06Come and have a look at her.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10She's safe and happy in this house with me and my wife.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13Holly was fully aware that this would be the outcome
0:40:13 > 0:40:15if she carried on the way she was.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18This isn't about Holly now, is it?
0:40:18 > 0:40:20It's about Ella.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22My granddaughter.
0:40:25 > 0:40:26I am perfectly capable
0:40:26 > 0:40:30and my wife is perfectly capable of looking after our own.
0:40:30 > 0:40:32This is temporary. At the moment, it's temporary.
0:40:32 > 0:40:35She'll be in foster care for the next few weeks,
0:40:35 > 0:40:38I'm sorry, but we have to enforce the order.
0:40:46 > 0:40:48No...
0:40:50 > 0:40:51Holly.
0:40:51 > 0:40:52SHE SNIFFLES
0:40:52 > 0:40:53Please don't.
0:40:53 > 0:40:54SHE SOBS
0:40:54 > 0:40:58- I'll do better. I'll change. - We have to, Holly.
0:41:01 > 0:41:02I'm sorry!
0:41:04 > 0:41:06Dad, please!
0:41:06 > 0:41:09They've got to take the baby.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11HOLLY SOBS
0:41:13 > 0:41:14Come on.
0:41:39 > 0:41:40No.
0:41:42 > 0:41:44No.
0:41:46 > 0:41:47No.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51Daddy.
0:41:54 > 0:41:55No.
0:41:58 > 0:41:59No.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13I can't do no more.
0:42:29 > 0:42:31SHE SOBS
0:42:31 > 0:42:33I can't do no more.
0:42:35 > 0:42:39You're helping other kids by doing this. You know that, don't you?
0:42:39 > 0:42:43Making sure that what happened to you never happens to them.
0:42:44 > 0:42:49Imagine how you'd feel if they ever went near Yasmin.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51They never could.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55They never would, cos I'd wouldn't let them.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58Yeah, but what if she didn't have someone like you?
0:43:00 > 0:43:03What about those kids who don't have anyone to protect them?
0:43:10 > 0:43:12- SOFTLY:- I can't do no more.
0:43:13 > 0:43:14You can.
0:43:17 > 0:43:19I know you can.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31- OK.- All right. Go on, then.
0:43:32 > 0:43:34Go in there, give it another go.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37SHE EXHALES
0:44:38 > 0:44:41Our star witness looking like she's too vulnerable to proceed.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43How's Holly doing?
0:44:43 > 0:44:46I don't know. It's too early to say. She's still in hospital,
0:44:46 > 0:44:50but I do know her parents don't want us coming anywhere near.
0:44:56 > 0:44:57Maggie?
0:44:57 > 0:45:00The boss wants to see you.
0:45:06 > 0:45:08I've heard Amber's first interview, Maggie.
0:45:08 > 0:45:11She's calling Holly every name under the sun.
0:45:11 > 0:45:14I know that first interview with Amber wasn't what we needed,
0:45:14 > 0:45:17but she's done hours more since then.
0:45:17 > 0:45:20She's given us names, places, phone numbers, taxi firms.
0:45:20 > 0:45:21We need Ruby.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25But Ruby's a different kettle of fish altogether.
0:45:25 > 0:45:27We need to start thinking like prosecutors now.
0:45:27 > 0:45:30There's forensics with Ruby - the foetus.
0:45:30 > 0:45:33If she gives us consent to use it. And right now...
0:45:33 > 0:45:37Right now, she's our best chance of successful prosecution.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42I've spent months building a relationship with Amber
0:45:42 > 0:45:45because that's what it's taken to get her to trust the police.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47She was scared at first, Sandy,
0:45:47 > 0:45:51but then she's really started to open up.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53We're not talking about Amber.
0:45:53 > 0:45:55I'd like you to engage Ruby.
0:45:57 > 0:45:59Sir.
0:46:01 > 0:46:03Amber wanted to see you today.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05The little one's teething.
0:46:05 > 0:46:07Any tips?
0:46:07 > 0:46:12Well, I just wanted a chat to Ruby today on our own.
0:46:15 > 0:46:16I'm not going to lie to you, Ruby.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19I want you to tell me what happened to you.
0:46:19 > 0:46:22You went through a terrible time,
0:46:22 > 0:46:26and we want to make sure that that never happens to other children.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35It wasn't a terrible time.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40It was one of the best times. It were mint.
0:46:40 > 0:46:42You were 13 years old,
0:46:42 > 0:46:46and he was a married man of nearly 40 with children of his own,
0:46:46 > 0:46:48and he got you pregnant. That's not right.
0:46:48 > 0:46:50You don't know anything.
0:46:50 > 0:46:54I know you were the victim of somebody who was older...
0:46:54 > 0:46:56We was having a relationship.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59He loved me.
0:46:59 > 0:47:01I wasn't a victim of anything.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05RUBY SIGHS
0:47:05 > 0:47:07DOOR BANGS
0:47:09 > 0:47:11I told you you'd have no chance with Ruby.
0:47:11 > 0:47:15It's OK. She's just got to work it out in her own head.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25DOOR OPENS
0:47:30 > 0:47:32INAUDIBLE CONVERSATION
0:47:35 > 0:47:37THEY CHATTER
0:47:43 > 0:47:45She's asleep.
0:47:45 > 0:47:47Fine, OK.
0:47:47 > 0:47:49Do you want to come in?
0:47:53 > 0:47:55She's got nothing to live for now.
0:47:55 > 0:47:57No focus,
0:47:57 > 0:47:59no purpose.
0:48:00 > 0:48:04And it's maddening, cos she played right into their hands
0:48:04 > 0:48:07and did the exact thing that gave them the power to take Ella off her.
0:48:07 > 0:48:09You lot egged her on...
0:48:09 > 0:48:12to get involved with this.
0:48:12 > 0:48:15You can all go home, can't you, at the end of the day.
0:48:15 > 0:48:19It's her that's left with it going round and round in her head.
0:48:20 > 0:48:21Yeah.
0:48:22 > 0:48:25I did egg her on...
0:48:25 > 0:48:27because I thought it would help her.
0:48:27 > 0:48:28HE SCOFFS
0:48:28 > 0:48:31Oh, it's done her the power of good, ain't it?
0:48:31 > 0:48:35And I still think that this is important, psychologically,
0:48:35 > 0:48:41for her to get the chance to stand up and say what happened.
0:48:41 > 0:48:43She's been standing up for years.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46Yeah, she has, but now, finally...
0:48:47 > 0:48:49..there's people listening.
0:48:53 > 0:48:56Did it look like a baby?
0:48:59 > 0:49:00I don't know.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10How big was it?
0:49:13 > 0:49:14Was it tiny?
0:49:16 > 0:49:18I don't know.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30Why did they freeze it?
0:49:31 > 0:49:34I think so then it won't go off.
0:49:34 > 0:49:38So they can do tests on it if they wanted to.
0:49:38 > 0:49:42But they can't do owt with the results unless you say they can.
0:49:45 > 0:49:47OK.
0:49:52 > 0:49:55It's a shame for it.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59What happened to it.
0:50:01 > 0:50:02In't it?
0:50:04 > 0:50:06- LORNA KISSES - Yeah.
0:50:21 > 0:50:24It won't always be like this.
0:50:24 > 0:50:26Yeah, it will.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41We can apply for guardianship of her.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44Me and your mum.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46If you want that.
0:50:46 > 0:50:49I don't know why I did it.
0:50:50 > 0:50:51I don't...
0:50:55 > 0:50:57Sara came to see you.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00Sounds like the coppers, this time round,
0:51:00 > 0:51:03they're night and day from the other lot.
0:51:06 > 0:51:09You don't have to have anything to do with 'em,
0:51:09 > 0:51:11but if you want to carry on with this...
0:51:13 > 0:51:15..your mum and me, we...
0:51:15 > 0:51:17we'll be right behind you.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28Come on, Ruby.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33They pass you round like a ball.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37They, like, get your number
0:51:37 > 0:51:39and then there's, like,
0:51:39 > 0:51:4350 people you don't know who are ringing you.
0:51:45 > 0:51:49What do you mean, they pass you round like a ball, Ruby?
0:51:52 > 0:51:57They'd be in a flat in, like, a massive circle...
0:51:58 > 0:52:01..and then they'd put the white girl in the middle.
0:52:01 > 0:52:04Then you'd get sent off with one of them,
0:52:04 > 0:52:07and then you'd come back and, like, get passed and passed again.
0:52:09 > 0:52:11And where was the flat?
0:52:11 > 0:52:13There weren't one.
0:52:13 > 0:52:15There were loads.
0:52:15 > 0:52:18I didn't feel anything.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23Why do you think you felt like that?
0:52:23 > 0:52:26Because it had been going on for so long.
0:52:30 > 0:52:31'It hurt...
0:52:33 > 0:52:35'..because I didn't want to do it.
0:52:37 > 0:52:39'And I'd only had sex, like,
0:52:39 > 0:52:42'a couple of times before that, as well.
0:52:42 > 0:52:44- MAN:- 'Say again. Sorry?
0:52:50 > 0:52:54'Cos I'd only had sex, like, a couple of times before that.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57'Amber thought that he was her boyfriend.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02'So, what did you think was going to happen when he picked you up?
0:53:04 > 0:53:08'I didn't actually know he was taking us to have sex.
0:53:08 > 0:53:10MAGGIE: 'What was you doing?
0:53:10 > 0:53:12'I were trying to move.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14'But I just gave up.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20'Because what's the point in trying?'
0:53:22 > 0:53:25The problem is the witness Holly Winshaw.
0:53:25 > 0:53:27She was seen as unreliable then and, arguably,
0:53:27 > 0:53:30she's even less likely to convince a jury now,
0:53:30 > 0:53:33given the troubles she's had in the meantime.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35- Chaotic.- Chaotic.
0:53:35 > 0:53:38That is exactly the kind of person who's affected by this crime.
0:53:38 > 0:53:42The girl that no-one's looking out for, who's on the streets at night,
0:53:42 > 0:53:44out of control of the parents.
0:53:44 > 0:53:47- That quality made her a victim in the first place.- Agreed.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50So, if it's also the quality that keeps her out the witness box,
0:53:50 > 0:53:52isn't she doubly damned?
0:53:52 > 0:53:55But to be ultra-pragmatic for a moment,
0:53:55 > 0:53:58what is the point in subjecting a girl like Holly to a trial
0:53:58 > 0:54:02if a jury is not going to believe she's telling the truth?
0:54:02 > 0:54:04If a jury's not going to believe her?
0:54:04 > 0:54:06Why are we making that assumption?
0:54:08 > 0:54:09I watched her interviews...
0:54:10 > 0:54:13..and I believed her.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16And in court, how do we deal with the fact
0:54:16 > 0:54:19that it's on record that we DIDN'T believe her?
0:54:21 > 0:54:24We put our hand up and we say we got it wrong.
0:54:26 > 0:54:28It went well.
0:54:28 > 0:54:31CPS have agreed the charges we want to go for in respect of Ruby.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34- Really good work, Maggie. - Well done.
0:54:34 > 0:54:38And the Chief Prosecutor himself has given us the green light on Holly.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40We're going to trial.
0:54:55 > 0:54:57Emily, can I have a word?
0:54:57 > 0:54:59Yeah, of course.
0:54:59 > 0:55:00It's about Amber.
0:55:02 > 0:55:05Look, I'm sorry, Maggie, but we cannot put her in a witness box.
0:55:07 > 0:55:09No. I don't believe it.
0:55:09 > 0:55:11- No.- She's just too volatile.
0:55:11 > 0:55:15She's been through what the other girls have gone through, and more.
0:55:15 > 0:55:16I know, but a jury...
0:55:16 > 0:55:20A jury can see a damaged person when there's one in front of them.
0:55:20 > 0:55:22She will not go down well with a jury.
0:55:24 > 0:55:28So, Holly's the right kind of victim, but Amber...
0:55:28 > 0:55:31Isn't this the kind of attitude towards young girls
0:55:31 > 0:55:33that created this mess in the first place?
0:55:33 > 0:55:36This is not a value judgment.
0:55:36 > 0:55:40It's just a statement of fact about what the legal system demands.
0:55:40 > 0:55:43We need to be strategic about calling witnesses
0:55:43 > 0:55:45so we can get those convictions.
0:55:45 > 0:55:47We cannot have two kids
0:55:47 > 0:55:50contradicting and blaming each other.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53The jury's heads will pop, and we will go away with nothing.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55Let's credit the jury with some intelligence!
0:55:55 > 0:55:57Both of these girls were victims!
0:55:57 > 0:56:02Amber was the kind of kid whose basic human needs -
0:56:02 > 0:56:05um, warmth, shelter, food, drink -
0:56:05 > 0:56:07were being met by a kebab shop,
0:56:07 > 0:56:10and if she WAS in charge, if she was getting the other girls
0:56:10 > 0:56:14to dish out blow jobs, it was so she didn't have to do them all herself!
0:56:14 > 0:56:16Maggie, stop it. You're getting too emotional.
0:56:16 > 0:56:19Yeah, but isn't that exactly why I was put on this job?
0:56:19 > 0:56:21Because I'm older, I'm a mum, I'm a gran...
0:56:21 > 0:56:24Oh, I'm so bloody domestic, the girls will forget that I'm a copper
0:56:24 > 0:56:26and they'll trust me and they'll open up to me,
0:56:26 > 0:56:28and that's exactly what Amber did.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30Do you know what it cost her to do that? And for what?!
0:56:30 > 0:56:32So I can go back to her and say,
0:56:32 > 0:56:35"No-one's going to court for what they did to you,
0:56:35 > 0:56:38"because you're coarse and you swear and you're unsympathetic."
0:56:38 > 0:56:41Sandy guaranteed that this wouldn't happen again!
0:56:44 > 0:56:46It is the job of the CPS
0:56:46 > 0:56:49to decide what we present at trial.
0:56:50 > 0:56:53Not everybody gets their day in court, Maggie.
0:56:53 > 0:56:56They're not using Amber, but they're going to use Ruby.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01I'm not using anyone.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22'Nine men have been charged over allegations of grooming
0:57:22 > 0:57:25'and committing sexual activity with teenage girls in Rochdale.
0:57:25 > 0:57:28'The men have been charged with offences including rape,
0:57:28 > 0:57:30'paying for the sexual services of a child,
0:57:30 > 0:57:34'trafficking a child and controlling child prostitution,
0:57:34 > 0:57:36'going back to 2008.'
0:57:36 > 0:57:38Shabir Ahmed, you are charged with conspiracy
0:57:38 > 0:57:41to have sexual activity with a child,
0:57:41 > 0:57:44conspiring with others to sexually touch a child,
0:57:44 > 0:57:46multiple counts of trafficking,
0:57:46 > 0:57:48multiple counts of rape.
0:57:48 > 0:57:53Nine not-guilty pleas, which means nine cross-examinations,
0:57:53 > 0:57:57which means nine different barristers telling these girls
0:57:57 > 0:57:59that every word they're saying's a lie.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03Are they up to it?
0:58:05 > 0:58:09'Innocent white victims. Dark-skinned abusers.'
0:58:09 > 0:58:12- 'It's uncomfortable, isn't it?' - CROWD CHANTS
0:58:12 > 0:58:14The whole bloody country's waiting on this trial
0:58:14 > 0:58:17and she's up there having a lie-in!
0:58:17 > 0:58:18Where is she?
0:58:18 > 0:58:21How dare you show your face here again?!
0:58:21 > 0:58:23If they didn't want me to be a witness,
0:58:23 > 0:58:26why did they beg me to do it in the first place?
0:58:26 > 0:58:28This incident did not happen, did it, Holly?
0:58:28 > 0:58:30Yeah, it did.
0:58:30 > 0:58:32MAGGIE: It was me you trusted.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35It was me you poured your heart out to and I'm sorry.
0:58:35 > 0:58:37- SARA:- You're just going to carry on doing
0:58:37 > 0:58:40what you've been doing for years. Telling the truth.