0:00:00 > 0:00:00- Subtitles
0:00:00 > 0:00:02- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:00:20 > 0:00:21- Welcome to Cadw Cwmni.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24- Everyone has a story to tell...
0:00:24 > 0:00:27- ..and I'm here to provide - a platform for that story.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30- Tonight, we recall - two historical events.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33- In Part 2, we visit Tiananmen Square - in Beijing...
0:00:34 > 0:00:38- ..but first, with the Olympic Games - still fresh in the mind...
0:00:38 > 0:00:43- ..I'm taking you back to - the tragic events at Munich in 1972.
0:00:43 > 0:00:47- The Munich Olympic Games - in 1972 were important...
0:00:47 > 0:00:51- ..because they were the first - held in Germany...
0:00:51 > 0:00:53- ..since The Second World War.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58- They were seen as a statement - by the German government...
0:00:58 > 0:01:03- ..that they were back on - the international stage once more.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07- Their intention was to host - a friendly Olympic Games...
0:01:07 > 0:01:13- ..but the Germans weren't ready - for any kind of terrorist incident.
0:01:14 > 0:01:20- They had no idea how to deal - with it once it had started.
0:01:21 > 0:01:25- The original aim of Black September - in Munich in 1972...
0:01:25 > 0:01:28- ..was to kidnap members - of the Israeli Olympic team.
0:01:29 > 0:01:35- They kidnapped six coaches - and five athletes.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40- They intended to keep them - as hostages...
0:01:40 > 0:01:46- ..to try and bargain for the release - of 234 Palestinian prisoners...
0:01:47 > 0:01:49- ..who'd been captured by Israel.
0:01:50 > 0:01:55- They also wanted the release of the - Red Army Faction leaders in Germany.
0:01:55 > 0:01:59- This explains why they chose Germany - as their target.
0:01:59 > 0:02:04- They wanted Baader and Meinhof - released from German prisons.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07- 40 years have flown by.
0:02:07 > 0:02:13- I've been joined by Austin Savage - who was in Munich in 1972.
0:02:14 > 0:02:18- Why were you in Munich - for the Olympic Games?
0:02:18 > 0:02:22- I was a member of the Great Britain - Olympic hockey team.
0:02:23 > 0:02:25- That was the highlight of my career.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29- I'd had success with - the Welsh team over the years.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33- I'd missed out on competing - at the Olympic Games previously.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38- The selectors thought I was too - young to play at Tokyo in 1964.
0:02:38 > 0:02:44- I played numerous times for Great - Britain between Tokyo and Mexico...
0:02:44 > 0:02:48- ..but all the travelling - I had to do...
0:02:48 > 0:02:52- ..from Rhyl and Abergele - down to London, took its toll...
0:02:52 > 0:02:55- ..so I missed out on a place - in Mexico...
0:02:55 > 0:02:58- ..but I was still successful - with Wales.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03- They had to choose someone from the - Welsh team to compete in Munich...
0:03:03 > 0:03:06- ..and that's how I went.
0:03:06 > 0:03:10- Tell me about the security - arrangements in Munich.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12- It appeared to be fine.
0:03:12 > 0:03:18- The Olympic village - was surrounded by a tall fence.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21- There were gates with big locks - to secure them.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25- There were guards stationed - at every entrance.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29- I was aware of the presence - of policemen and soldiers...
0:03:29 > 0:03:31- ..even though - they weren't in uniform.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36- How far was your section of - the village from the Israeli camp?
0:03:36 > 0:03:38- The next street.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41- If I stood on the top floor - of our building...
0:03:42 > 0:03:44- ..I could see the Israeli building.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48- When did you become aware - that all was not well?
0:03:48 > 0:03:53- After breakfast on that morning.
0:03:53 > 0:03:57- People had broken in - over the fence...
0:03:57 > 0:04:00- ..and things had started happening.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04- I wasn't aware - until I walked past the street...
0:04:04 > 0:04:06- ..where the Israelis were staying...
0:04:07 > 0:04:11- ..and saw the police in their - blue uniforms and white hats.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14- We ate our breakfast - and walked back.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16- There was a huge commotion...
0:04:17 > 0:04:21- ..and that's when we heard - that two Israelis had been killed...
0:04:21 > 0:04:23- ..inside their building.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25- Everything stopped.
0:04:28 > 0:04:34- I returned to my room - and the phone rang.
0:04:34 > 0:04:39- The BBC in Bangor and Cardiff - had been trying to get hold of me.
0:04:40 > 0:04:45- The late Alun Williams - who worked for the BBC...
0:04:45 > 0:04:50- ..had left Munich - to watch the sailing in Kiel...
0:04:50 > 0:04:52- ..so he wasn't available.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56- They asked me if I knew - what was happening.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01- The village itself - was pedestrianised...
0:05:01 > 0:05:07- ..and under the village was - a network of roads for vehicles.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12- That's where I went to try - and discover more information.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14- I found a policeman - who spoke English.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17- I wasn't supposed to be there.
0:05:17 > 0:05:21- He told me to shelter behind - a pillar for my own safety.
0:05:21 > 0:05:29- He fed me information - about the terrorists' demands.
0:05:29 > 0:05:33- I went back up to our building - and phoned the BBC.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36- I then returned to talk - to the policeman.
0:05:36 > 0:05:40- The rest of the hockey team - were stuck where they were.
0:05:40 > 0:05:43- They just played chess - or read books...
0:05:43 > 0:05:47- ..while I went back down - to gather more information.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50- It was so well covered - as a historical event...
0:05:50 > 0:05:54- ..because of the presence of so - many cameras in the Olympic village.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56- It was all broadcast on TV.
0:05:57 > 0:06:02- It was the first historic event - that the public could witness.
0:06:05 > 0:06:10- I wasn't aware - of any CCTV cameras...
0:06:10 > 0:06:17- ..but I was very aware that - a lot was happening at the time.
0:06:17 > 0:06:19- This was disappointing...
0:06:19 > 0:06:23- ..because the Games were held - in the correct spirit.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27- Despite all the troubles - in the world at the time...
0:06:27 > 0:06:31- ..we got on well with athletes - from other nations.
0:06:31 > 0:06:33- You were hiding behind a pillar.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37- You were passed by a bus - carrying the terrorists.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39- Could you see into the bus?
0:06:39 > 0:06:42- I could see a man at the front - holding a gun.
0:06:43 > 0:06:48- It all happened so quickly - and I was worried I'd be seen.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52- I didn't want to be caught.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58- That was a rather strange thing - to see.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02- You were in the next street. - Were you worried about your safety?
0:07:02 > 0:07:04- No, no.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07- Everything had happened by then.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11- We don't expect - anything like that to happen again.
0:07:11 > 0:07:17- After that, we saw more - armed police inside the village.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23- I attended the memorial service.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26- The games were stopped for a while.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29- I can't remember for how long, - a day or two.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33- All the athletes wanted to know - what was going to happen.
0:07:33 > 0:07:37- There was a memorial service - in the Olympic Stadium...
0:07:38 > 0:07:41- ..to pay tribute to those - who'd been killed.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45- We were waiting to hear - if the Olympic Games would continue.
0:07:45 > 0:07:51- Avery Brundage, the president - of the IOC, was heavily criticised.
0:07:52 > 0:07:57- The Arab nations refused - to lower their flags to half mast.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01- The Great Britain - Olympic hockey team...
0:08:01 > 0:08:03- ..had two players of Arab descent.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08- I have to say, - they were very concerned indeed.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13- In appearance, - they were very similar...
0:08:13 > 0:08:16- ..to the Black September group.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19- They were very concerned.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23- For the rest of us, - everything continued.
0:08:26 > 0:08:31- A decision had to be taken about - whether the Games would continue.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34- You had a game to play - the following day.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38- Were the Games in doubt at any time?
0:08:38 > 0:08:40- Oh, yes, most certainly.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43- Some people thought - they would be cancelled.
0:08:43 > 0:08:45- It was such a serious incident...
0:08:46 > 0:08:50- ..and people were so shocked - that it had happened in Germany.
0:08:50 > 0:08:53- The organisation of the Games - was so meticulous.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58- The 1972 Games were the first - to be organised professionally...
0:08:58 > 0:09:01- ..for a long time.
0:09:04 > 0:09:08- The Games went ahead, - and that was some relief...
0:09:08 > 0:09:17- ..yet, in the team games, somehow - or other, the spark had disappeared.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21- Mark Spitz returned home - after winning numerous medals...
0:09:22 > 0:09:23- ..and he was of Jewish descent.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28- Some of the nations - also returned home.
0:09:29 > 0:09:32- It affected me differently.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34- Because of the delay...
0:09:35 > 0:09:38- ..the Closing Ceremony - would happen later...
0:09:38 > 0:09:44- ..than the time the school - had allowed me to be away.
0:09:45 > 0:09:51- They had to organise a plane - for those who missed the ceremony.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54- I missed the Closing Ceremony...
0:09:54 > 0:09:59- ..because I had to be back - at the school in Rhyl.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03- Do you think the people killed - at Munich...
0:10:03 > 0:10:07- ..were respectfully remembered - at the London Olympics?
0:10:07 > 0:10:09- I think so.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13- They were remembered - during the Opening Ceremony...
0:10:13 > 0:10:17- ..and there is a memorial - to the incident.
0:10:17 > 0:10:23- You can't have too many memorials - to something as terrifying as that.
0:10:24 > 0:10:29- From then on, security at sporting - events changed forever.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32- Yes indeed.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35- You sometimes think - it's gone too far.
0:10:35 > 0:10:40- One thing that disappoints me about - the Olympics is its current scale.
0:10:41 > 0:10:46- So much money is spent on - the opening and closing ceremonies.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49- I think the money - would be better spent...
0:10:50 > 0:10:54- ..on the sports themselves - and the lesser countries.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58- It was 40 years ago, - but it's still fresh in your memory.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02- Even though it's 40 years, - it feels like yesterday.
0:11:03 > 0:11:04- It's flown by.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07- The day you became - a BBC correspondent...
0:11:08 > 0:11:10- ..while Alun Williams - was sailing in Kiel!
0:11:12 > 0:11:14- Thank you for sharing your story.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18- Munich in 1972.
0:11:18 > 0:11:20- It's time to take a break.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24- When we return, we travel - to Tiananmen Square in China.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27- We meet a woman - who worked there as a lecturer...
0:11:27 > 0:11:31- ..and joined the protestors - on the square.
0:11:34 > 0:11:34- .
0:11:36 > 0:11:36- Subtitles
0:11:36 > 0:11:38- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:11:39 > 0:11:41- Welcome back to Cadw Cwmni.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45- In Part 1, we discussed - the Munich massacre in 1972.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50- Next, we travel to China and the - Tiananmen Square protest in 1989.
0:11:50 > 0:11:55- What we witnessed - in Tiananmen Square in 1989...
0:11:55 > 0:11:59- ..was the biggest challenge - to the leadership and control...
0:11:59 > 0:12:01- ..of the Communist Party in China.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04- Tiananmen Square is very symbolic.
0:12:05 > 0:12:11- The protests started in April - and continued through to June...
0:12:12 > 0:12:15- ..right in the centre of Beijing...
0:12:15 > 0:12:21- ..in a square that was highly - symbolic to the Communist Party.
0:12:21 > 0:12:25- Most of the protestors - were students.
0:12:25 > 0:12:31- What we saw in China from 1987 - onwards, and throughout the 1980s...
0:12:31 > 0:12:35- ..was the country's ruling party, - led by Deng Xiaoping...
0:12:36 > 0:12:39- ..opening up sections of society.
0:12:39 > 0:12:44- They made it easier for people - to voice their opinions...
0:12:44 > 0:12:50- ..and they introduced economic - measures to promote competition.
0:12:50 > 0:12:54- The population was enjoying - elements of social, economic...
0:12:54 > 0:12:57- ..and, to some extent, - political freedom...
0:12:58 > 0:13:00- ..that hadn't existed under Mao.
0:13:00 > 0:13:05- However, towards the end - of the 1980s, there was an U-turn.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09- The Chinese government closed ranks.
0:13:09 > 0:13:13- They prevented people - voicing their opinions.
0:13:14 > 0:13:19- Dr Kathryn Jones witnessed the - events at Tiananmen in Beijing...
0:13:19 > 0:13:21- ..and she joins me now.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24- What were you doing - in Beijing in 1989?
0:13:25 > 0:13:27- I was working at the university - in Beijing.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31- I was director of the university's - foreign languages department.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35- What was interesting - about Communism...
0:13:35 > 0:13:39- ..were the changes seen in Europe - at the time.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43- During that time, - at the end of the 1980s...
0:13:43 > 0:13:46- ..Communism was being challenged - in Europe.
0:13:46 > 0:13:55- Poland had moved away - from Communism in April 1989.
0:13:55 > 0:14:02- There was a real threat - to Communism at the time.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06- Did you think China - would change during this time?
0:14:06 > 0:14:12- There was a lot of discussion - about what could happen.
0:14:14 > 0:14:21- By that time, Mao Tse-tung's - generation of supporters were dying.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24- They were in their late 80s, - early 90s.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28- A new generation was - becoming more influential...
0:14:29 > 0:14:31- ..within the Communist Party - in China.
0:14:32 > 0:14:37- Tiananmen Square was filled by - students over a long period of time.
0:14:38 > 0:14:41- It was a protest - that developed over time...
0:14:41 > 0:14:44- ..and changed over time too.
0:14:44 > 0:14:48- The catalyst to the protests - was the death of Hu Yaobang...
0:14:48 > 0:14:53- ..a former General Secretary - on the Communist Party of China.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57- He'd declared publically - that intellectual people...
0:14:57 > 0:15:02- ..had an important role to play - and that was very significant.
0:15:02 > 0:15:10- During the Cultural Revolution, - academics had been persecuted.
0:15:12 > 0:15:17- When he died, - the students at the university...
0:15:17 > 0:15:20- ..paid homage to him.
0:15:20 > 0:15:24- Initially, - protests were made in good spirits.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28- There were protests - against political corruption...
0:15:28 > 0:15:30- ..within the Communist Party.
0:15:30 > 0:15:36- Beyond that, there was no - real threat to the ruling order.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40- That grew as the protests continued.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45- There were numerous key events - during that time.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51- There was almost - a carnival atmosphere...
0:15:52 > 0:15:55- ..during the first week of protests.
0:15:57 > 0:16:04- Gorbachev visited Beijing - around May 15...
0:16:04 > 0:16:06- ..and by then...
0:16:06 > 0:16:13- ..the Chinese government - had offered to meet the students.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18- The meetings would be broadcast - on TV.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23- A select group of students, - chosen by the government...
0:16:23 > 0:16:28- ..met some rather insignificant - government ministers.
0:16:28 > 0:16:34- The government's dismissive attitude - sparked indignation...
0:16:34 > 0:16:36- ..amongst the students.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39- In terms of your - personal experience...
0:16:39 > 0:16:42- ..you lectured the students - who protested on the square.
0:16:42 > 0:16:47- Yes, but I was lecturing a group - of mature students at the time.
0:16:47 > 0:16:53- They intended to pursue doctorate - courses in America or Britain.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56- The students I lectured directly...
0:16:56 > 0:17:01- ..weren't the young generation - of students.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06- The younger students - led the political campaigns.
0:17:07 > 0:17:11- The mature students supported - and joined the protests...
0:17:11 > 0:17:14- ..but they weren't the leaders.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17- Did you attend the protests?
0:17:17 > 0:17:19- Yes, I attended regularly - right from the start.
0:17:20 > 0:17:25- On the week of April 15, no lectures - were held in the university.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28- There were no students - at the university.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33- As someone from the western world, - how safe did you feel?
0:17:34 > 0:17:36- Initially, everyone felt very safe.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41- There was a very friendly - atmosphere.
0:17:41 > 0:17:45- When Gorbachev returned to Russia, - the atmosphere changed.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48- By then, - China was under immense pressure...
0:17:48 > 0:17:51- ..from the international community.
0:17:51 > 0:17:57- The international media was - broadcasting images of the protests.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00- A lot of students - were on hunger strikes...
0:18:00 > 0:18:03- ..a lot of students - were falling ill...
0:18:03 > 0:18:07- ..and ambulances - were constantly coming and going.
0:18:07 > 0:18:14- There was a turning point - on May 20...
0:18:14 > 0:18:19- ..when martial law was declared - and everything was prohibited.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21- That was the turning point.
0:18:21 > 0:18:23- Were you being watched?
0:18:23 > 0:18:24- Were you being watched?- - I don't know.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27- Prior to the protests...
0:18:27 > 0:18:32- ..I was aware of people - standing outside my home...
0:18:32 > 0:18:35- ..keeping an eye on everyone, - not just me.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38- I was aware of this surveillance.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41- Somehow, I don't know how...
0:18:41 > 0:18:45- ..someone from the English media - had my phone number.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48- They phoned me and asked - for an interview in English.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51- That was too dangerous - and I put the phone down.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54- You couldn't phone people - directly...
0:18:55 > 0:18:59- ..you were re-directed - by a switchboard in the university.
0:18:59 > 0:19:03- They were used to hearing me - speaking to my parents in Welsh.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07- I felt safer - when Aled Gwyn phoned me...
0:19:08 > 0:19:11- ..pretending to be my uncle, - and spoke in Welsh.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15- You were safe speaking Welsh - but not English!
0:19:16 > 0:19:18- I felt in danger - when I spoke English.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22- What do you remember of the nights - when they cleared the square?
0:19:23 > 0:19:24- Where were you at the time?
0:19:25 > 0:19:29- I'd been down to the square on a - number of nights before it happened.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34- People expected it to happen. I'd - go down to see what was happening.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38- There were very few cars there - at the time - people rode bicycles.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44- I'd cycle down so far - and if I saw tanks, I'd turn around.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48- That's only as far as I went.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51- When I was in China...
0:19:51 > 0:19:56- ..the university buildings were - at the northern edge of Beijing.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58- They're now in the centre - of the city.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03- There were a number of universities - close to one another.
0:20:03 > 0:20:08- At the time, there were huge gates - in front of every university.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12- People would gather at the gates - to hear about the events.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16- I remember going down - to one of the other universities.
0:20:16 > 0:20:21- There's a wide road from - Beijing's Tsinghua University...
0:20:22 > 0:20:24- ..down to the city centre.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26- I remember being part of a crowd...
0:20:26 > 0:20:29- ..that went down - to hear about the events.
0:20:29 > 0:20:37- I remember a group of students - returning from the square...
0:20:37 > 0:20:41- ..and they were chanting - their slogans.
0:20:41 > 0:20:45- They claimed that 1,600 students - had been killed.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49- That was the message - we received from this group.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52- They had been part - of the protests...
0:20:52 > 0:20:56- ..and were returning - to the universities.
0:20:56 > 0:21:03- It's hard to describe - the atmosphere at the time.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06- There was anger and grief - - it was very emotional.
0:21:06 > 0:21:10- People were searching for news - about their friends.
0:21:10 > 0:21:15- There were reports of soldiers - firing at students in the square...
0:21:16 > 0:21:21- ..but students were encouraged to - go the square to rescue the bodies.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24- How many photographs - do you have of that time?
0:21:25 > 0:21:30- I had a lot of photographs - but I destroyed most of them.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33- The photographs I had...
0:21:33 > 0:21:38- ..were evidence of the people - who had been part of the protests.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40- Prior to that...
0:21:40 > 0:21:45- ..people were hauled in front - of a committee at the university...
0:21:46 > 0:21:50- ..to confess any part they'd played.
0:21:50 > 0:21:55- I was very concerned about that.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01- At the time, I worked with people - from America and Britain...
0:22:02 > 0:22:04- ..in addition to Chinese people.
0:22:04 > 0:22:11- I remember a minibus turning up - from the British Embassy...
0:22:11 > 0:22:15- ..to collect the British people - who'd decided to return home.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19- I'd decided to stay...
0:22:20 > 0:22:22- ..but I was persuaded to leave.
0:22:24 > 0:22:33- I was concerned that people would be - punished simply for knowing me.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37- That was a real danger at the time.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41- I don't know if it would have - happened, but it was a danger.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44- That's why I decided to leave...
0:22:44 > 0:22:47- ..and I was given 20 minutes - to pack my bags.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49- 20 minutes?
0:22:49 > 0:22:52- It's one of the worst things - I've ever had to do.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56- Unfortunately, our time is up.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00- Thank you for sharing your story - with us tonight.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02- You're welcome.
0:23:02 > 0:23:07- If you have a story, get in touch - and share your experience.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10- We want to hear your stories on S4C.
0:23:10 > 0:23:14- We're back next week. - Until then, goodnight.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35- S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf.
0:23:35 > 0:23:35- .