Episode 4

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0:00:26 > 0:00:28These are the Dragons,

0:00:28 > 0:00:32five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.

0:00:32 > 0:00:36Over the coming weeks, they'll make or break the dreams

0:00:36 > 0:00:39of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.

0:00:40 > 0:00:43You are not a willing partner here.

0:00:43 > 0:00:47Actually, if I'm honest with you, it's a bit boring.

0:00:47 > 0:00:50I don't think you should be in a position to stand there and say

0:00:50 > 0:00:52you're not going to negotiate.

0:00:52 > 0:00:54For every one idea such as this,

0:00:54 > 0:00:59there are probably several thousand that just don't even make it.

0:01:06 > 0:01:08The multi-millionaire investors

0:01:08 > 0:01:10have each built up their fortunes from scratch.

0:01:15 > 0:01:18Retail magnate Theo Paphitis.

0:01:18 > 0:01:22Hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne.

0:01:22 > 0:01:25Leisure industry expert Deborah Meaden.

0:01:25 > 0:01:28Queen of logistics Hilary Devey.

0:01:28 > 0:01:32And telecoms giant Peter Jones.

0:01:32 > 0:01:36The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment

0:01:36 > 0:01:40and the cash ready to invest, but only in the right business.

0:01:40 > 0:01:43Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs

0:01:43 > 0:01:45walk away with their money?

0:01:53 > 0:01:56Welcome to the Dragons' Den.

0:01:56 > 0:02:00Once again, cash-hungry entrepreneurs are preparing to face

0:02:00 > 0:02:03the five fearsome Dragons, all hoping to convince them

0:02:03 > 0:02:06that their business ideas are worth millions.

0:02:06 > 0:02:08They'll face tough questioning,

0:02:08 > 0:02:11but if our multi-millionaires see a money-making opportunity,

0:02:11 > 0:02:16any of the entrepreneurs could walk away with a much needed investment

0:02:16 > 0:02:19and a deal that could change their lives.

0:02:19 > 0:02:23First into the Den is former chat show host Chrystal Rose.

0:02:23 > 0:02:27She hopes to secure the Dragons' backing for her latest venture.

0:02:59 > 0:03:01Hi. My name is Chrystal Rose.

0:03:01 > 0:03:05I'm here in the Den to ask for an investment of £80,000

0:03:05 > 0:03:09so that I may produce a television game show pilot

0:03:09 > 0:03:11for a 25% equity share.

0:03:11 > 0:03:13I am an avid Scrabble player

0:03:13 > 0:03:16and member of the Middlesex Scrabble League

0:03:16 > 0:03:21and I've invented three new card games all with an emphasis on words.

0:03:21 > 0:03:24I've already licensed one of my games to a toy company in America.

0:03:24 > 0:03:29The other two I've amalgamated into a television game show format

0:03:29 > 0:03:31and I'm hoping that you Dragons will help me

0:03:31 > 0:03:35to show off the first round of Lost For Words!

0:03:35 > 0:03:38- Can you please come and... - Oh, I can't say no. Come on, guys.

0:03:38 > 0:03:41Will you help me play the game? Thank you so much.

0:03:41 > 0:03:43# Lost for words, lost for words. #

0:03:45 > 0:03:48Thank you. Just in the order that you usually play. Can you see?

0:03:48 > 0:03:51A big one just for you, Peter. Look at how I thought about you.

0:03:51 > 0:03:53Thank you.

0:03:53 > 0:03:58The whole aim of round one is to get control of the game.

0:03:58 > 0:04:01I'm going to give you a definition and you have to tell me what word I'm defining.

0:04:01 > 0:04:05The first Dragon to buzz in takes control of the game.

0:04:05 > 0:04:09So, the definition is, "a priceless gem, usually colourless".

0:04:09 > 0:04:11BUZZER Peter!

0:04:11 > 0:04:13- You're first.- Diamond.- Yeah!

0:04:13 > 0:04:15Diamonds is the correct answer. Now you have to nominate

0:04:15 > 0:04:19one of the Dragons you would like to get rid of to spell a ten-letter word.

0:04:19 > 0:04:24- But the thing is, you have to spell the word backwards.- Oh, that's easy.

0:04:24 > 0:04:27- Theo.- Theo!- I'm dyslexic.

0:04:27 > 0:04:29- This is useless for me! - It's all just fun.

0:04:29 > 0:04:31It's all for fun. OK. Well, let's all help.

0:04:31 > 0:04:36The definition is "air", the word, "atmosphere". Go.

0:04:36 > 0:04:38CAR HORN

0:04:38 > 0:04:39I buzzed in.

0:04:39 > 0:04:42- You do it then, please.- Oxygen.

0:04:42 > 0:04:43No, no, no.

0:04:43 > 0:04:47You've got to spell "atmosphere" backwards.

0:04:47 > 0:04:50- You've got to get the word right first, haven't you?- E, R, E, H...

0:04:50 > 0:04:52P, S...

0:04:52 > 0:04:54O?

0:04:54 > 0:04:57- M?- T.- A. Ah!

0:04:57 > 0:05:01Brilliant. Thank you so much for being good sports.

0:05:04 > 0:05:07A rare moment in the Den, as for once,

0:05:07 > 0:05:10it's the entrepreneur quizzing the Dragons.

0:05:10 > 0:05:13South London Scrabble champion Chrystal Rose

0:05:13 > 0:05:16believes she's devised the next big television game show

0:05:16 > 0:05:20and she needs £80,000 to produce a pilot episode.

0:05:20 > 0:05:25Theo Paphitis looks intrigued by the vivacious businesswoman.

0:05:27 > 0:05:32Now, what I want to know, can you tell us who Chrystal is?

0:05:32 > 0:05:34Chrystal Rose was the first woman in this country

0:05:34 > 0:05:37- to host an eponymous talk show. - A what?

0:05:37 > 0:05:41A talk show that's named after the person that's hosting it.

0:05:41 > 0:05:44Eponymous. I love words. You're going to find out that I love words.

0:05:44 > 0:05:48So before Vanessa, before Trisha, it was The Chrystal Rose show.

0:05:48 > 0:05:49I see that you were a fan(!)

0:05:52 > 0:05:55- So you did this show for how long? - I did it for four years.

0:05:55 > 0:05:58That came about as a result of me seeing The Oprah Winfrey Show,

0:05:58 > 0:06:02deciding that's what I wanted to do, to be a television presenter,

0:06:02 > 0:06:05even though I had no previous presentation or production skills.

0:06:05 > 0:06:08So, I got a team of 40 people together

0:06:08 > 0:06:11and then I produced my own pilot.

0:06:11 > 0:06:16So, if I gave you 80,000 quid, tell me, what would I get back?

0:06:16 > 0:06:18Oh, my goodness.

0:06:18 > 0:06:22The profits will be about £600,000 and that's just sales in the UK.

0:06:22 > 0:06:26I want to write this down because I'm interested in big numbers.

0:06:26 > 0:06:30- Words? Numbers. So, £600,000 profit. - That's just the game show.

0:06:30 > 0:06:33We've got the board games which I've already done.

0:06:33 > 0:06:35There are lots of prototypes of that. We licensed that.

0:06:35 > 0:06:38We've got so many different streams, the apps, the... You know.

0:06:38 > 0:06:41Let's make some money, honey!

0:06:42 > 0:06:45Confidence from Chrystal,

0:06:45 > 0:06:48but it's a curious business proposition for the Dragons,

0:06:48 > 0:06:51and Duncan Bannatyne seems perplexed.

0:06:52 > 0:06:56- What do the contestants get out of it?- Money.

0:06:56 > 0:06:59- Up to £250,000 they can win. - What's your budget per ep?

0:07:00 > 0:07:02Not more than £20,000, because...

0:07:02 > 0:07:07If your budget per ep is 20K, that means each ep,

0:07:07 > 0:07:11the average win is less than 20K, cos that comes out of the budget.

0:07:11 > 0:07:15No, because also, you bring on a sponsor to cover anything over that.

0:07:15 > 0:07:19I mean, the industry are telling me "There's nothing like your game",

0:07:19 > 0:07:22so you got elements there that haven't been seen on TV before,

0:07:22 > 0:07:27which is a really good thing. In fact, I've already sent it to a producer who's interested.

0:07:27 > 0:07:29He used to run Action Time.

0:07:29 > 0:07:32They made all of the game shows on television, from Catchphrase,

0:07:32 > 0:07:36any game show that you can think of.

0:07:36 > 0:07:37Chrystal, to think of a topic

0:07:37 > 0:07:41and mention a word related to it and then spell something backwards,

0:07:41 > 0:07:43you think that that hasn't been invented before?

0:07:43 > 0:07:46I played this with family and friends and when they said,

0:07:46 > 0:07:49"Oh, this is great", I didn't really take their word for it.

0:07:49 > 0:07:51I made sure that I went and had meetings

0:07:51 > 0:07:54with the people in the industry who have got the background,

0:07:54 > 0:07:57and they're the ones who've said, "You've got something good here."

0:07:57 > 0:08:00Erm... It doesn't wash with me.

0:08:00 > 0:08:02You've come up with somewhere where we can stand,

0:08:02 > 0:08:06a few knobs that we can press and some different colour lights...

0:08:06 > 0:08:08Apart from that, I don't see what you've got.

0:08:10 > 0:08:13Chrystal's nerve is put to the test

0:08:13 > 0:08:17as Peter Jones offers up a dose of reality.

0:08:17 > 0:08:19But the sanguine entrepreneur looks unruffled.

0:08:19 > 0:08:23Will she remain as composed under scrutiny from Deborah Meaden?

0:08:25 > 0:08:29This is a difficult one, because this is an area

0:08:29 > 0:08:32that you pretty well need specialist knowledge in.

0:08:32 > 0:08:34The only thing I can really concentrate on

0:08:34 > 0:08:36is your business background.

0:08:36 > 0:08:37Sure.

0:08:37 > 0:08:39I need you to tell me

0:08:39 > 0:08:44why you are in a position to turn this into a money-making investment.

0:08:44 > 0:08:46All I've done through my life is run businesses.

0:08:46 > 0:08:51I look young, right, but I'm not. It's good skin care.

0:08:51 > 0:08:54But I ran an events company myself,

0:08:54 > 0:08:57so I ran events inside and outside of London.

0:08:57 > 0:09:00I've run a clothes shop in the West End of London,

0:09:00 > 0:09:02I've run a nightclub in Streatham Hill.

0:09:02 > 0:09:06I've done lots of different businesses because I ploughed my own money into them.

0:09:06 > 0:09:08I've wanted to be at the helm.

0:09:08 > 0:09:11What's your biggest business success?

0:09:11 > 0:09:13Running an events company called Diamonds,

0:09:13 > 0:09:15which I did for seven years.

0:09:15 > 0:09:17What was the turnover of that business?

0:09:17 > 0:09:20Between £500,000 and £750,000 a year.

0:09:20 > 0:09:22And how much profit did that make?

0:09:22 > 0:09:24About £240,000.

0:09:26 > 0:09:32Impressive responses from Chrystal, and all five Dragons are still in.

0:09:32 > 0:09:35Will Theo Paphitis be the first to make up his mind?

0:09:38 > 0:09:40Chrystal.

0:09:40 > 0:09:43Why haven't you spoken to the production companies

0:09:43 > 0:09:46and just got somebody to put the £80,000 in

0:09:46 > 0:09:49and they can sell it for you?

0:09:49 > 0:09:50Do you know what?

0:09:50 > 0:09:52I might well be able to get £80,000 from somebody,

0:09:52 > 0:09:56but I wouldn't get one of you.

0:09:56 > 0:09:57OK.

0:09:57 > 0:10:00But if I was to say to you, "I'll give you £80,000...

0:10:02 > 0:10:09"..but I actually want equity of something between 25% and 50%",

0:10:09 > 0:10:11what would your initial reaction be?

0:10:13 > 0:10:16- I would explore it. Yeah. - That's good.

0:10:16 > 0:10:18That's what I was hoping you'd say.

0:10:18 > 0:10:21The fact is, you're offering me

0:10:21 > 0:10:26exactly the same of what these production houses would ask for,

0:10:26 > 0:10:28and they know what they're doing.

0:10:28 > 0:10:31They've got the contacts. I haven't got the contacts.

0:10:31 > 0:10:33But it's not the route that I wanted to take.

0:10:33 > 0:10:34I wanted my own production company

0:10:34 > 0:10:37with hopefully one of the Dragons on board.

0:10:37 > 0:10:40Then what you should've done is pitched a production company.

0:10:42 > 0:10:45A business. Not a show.

0:10:45 > 0:10:47Right.

0:10:47 > 0:10:49- And you didn't pitch that, did you? - Sure.

0:10:49 > 0:10:52It's not an investable proposition.

0:10:54 > 0:10:56I'm out.

0:10:58 > 0:11:02A devastating conclusion from Theo Paphitis,

0:11:02 > 0:11:05and Chrystal's confidence takes a hit.

0:11:05 > 0:11:08And Peter Jones looks to have made up his mind too.

0:11:10 > 0:11:13Chrystal, I think for every one idea such as this,

0:11:13 > 0:11:19there are probably several thousand that just don't even make it,

0:11:19 > 0:11:23and whilst I think that you are clearly gregarious,

0:11:23 > 0:11:26you've got great spirit, you've done a lot of things,

0:11:26 > 0:11:31there are so many people that actually have teams around them

0:11:31 > 0:11:34coming up with concepts every minute of every day

0:11:34 > 0:11:41and they still don't know whether it can work or whether it can't.

0:11:41 > 0:11:43- I'm going to tell you right now, I'm not.- OK.

0:11:46 > 0:11:50I think there are far better game shows on television now

0:11:50 > 0:11:53with much more interaction.

0:11:53 > 0:11:55And I've got to agree,

0:11:55 > 0:11:58the right venue is a production company.

0:12:01 > 0:12:02I've got to say, I'm out.

0:12:02 > 0:12:04OK.

0:12:04 > 0:12:06Chrystal.

0:12:06 > 0:12:09I actually have listened to you describe the show

0:12:09 > 0:12:12and took part in it, and actually,

0:12:12 > 0:12:16if I'm honest with you, I think it's a bit boring.

0:12:16 > 0:12:20I don't think it's a great show. I don't think it's a great concept.

0:12:20 > 0:12:24So, that's why I'm not going to invest in it, so I'm out.

0:12:24 > 0:12:25OK.

0:12:27 > 0:12:32Four Dragons out and the experienced businesswoman now looks forlorn.

0:12:32 > 0:12:36Only Deborah Meaden can save her from complete failure in the Den.

0:12:40 > 0:12:42When looking for an investment,

0:12:42 > 0:12:45either I know something about that market,

0:12:45 > 0:12:51or the person who's pitching to me is able to explain that market,

0:12:51 > 0:12:53but actually, television is different.

0:12:53 > 0:12:55So it might be a great idea,

0:12:55 > 0:12:57but that's the problem. I don't know.

0:12:57 > 0:12:59Trust me.

0:12:59 > 0:13:02I think that you should have faith in everything that I've said,

0:13:02 > 0:13:04have faith in me and my background.

0:13:04 > 0:13:07Well, you know, entrepreneurs take risks,

0:13:07 > 0:13:10but they are calculated risks,

0:13:10 > 0:13:15and the issue is that I don't have enough to make my calculation on.

0:13:17 > 0:13:18- I'm out.- Thank you.

0:13:18 > 0:13:20Thanks very much.

0:13:20 > 0:13:22- Pleasure meeting you. PETER:- Good luck.

0:13:22 > 0:13:27A wealth of advice for Chrystal, but not so rich in cash.

0:13:27 > 0:13:29She leaves with nothing.

0:13:37 > 0:13:41In business, your Eureka moments can come at any time.

0:13:41 > 0:13:44The founder of computer game giant Atari once said,

0:13:44 > 0:13:47"Everyone who's taken a shower has an idea,

0:13:47 > 0:13:50"it's the person that does something about it who makes a difference."

0:13:50 > 0:13:54Tony Heath from Warrington did something about it.

0:13:54 > 0:13:56Frustrated by foreshortened showers,

0:13:56 > 0:14:01he, along with brother Sid, invented a solution that now needs a £50,000 investment.

0:14:01 > 0:14:04If you've ever been to a camping and caravan site,

0:14:04 > 0:14:07you may be familiar with the non-concussive type shower valve.

0:14:07 > 0:14:11These are the ones that you have to keep pressing otherwise the water stops.

0:14:11 > 0:14:14We would now like to show you a demonstration of the Showerfriend.

0:14:14 > 0:14:17Instead of repeatedly pressing the button as he was doing,

0:14:17 > 0:14:20he now just attaches the Showerfriend,

0:14:20 > 0:14:23and bingo, he now has both hands free to shower.

0:14:25 > 0:14:27Peter Jones proved the Dragons really do have experience

0:14:27 > 0:14:29in a wide range of situations.

0:14:31 > 0:14:32I think it's ingenious.

0:14:32 > 0:14:35- I've been in those sort of showers where you press the button.- Really?

0:14:35 > 0:14:37It's actually a house that I bought.

0:14:37 > 0:14:39Take the system out and put a tap in!

0:14:39 > 0:14:42Instead of changing the bathroom I could just buy this for nine quid.

0:14:42 > 0:14:47A promising start perhaps, but Theo Paphitis had doubts over demand.

0:14:49 > 0:14:51I've used these things before in gyms.

0:14:51 > 0:14:55You're banging it, you get water on you, you rub your bits.

0:14:55 > 0:14:58It's never really been a problem.

0:14:58 > 0:15:01At leisure centres, camping and caravan sites,

0:15:01 > 0:15:05if they're not being maintained, they're down to three and four seconds.

0:15:05 > 0:15:08It's a major job to have a shower.

0:15:08 > 0:15:13Despite putting up a valiant defence of their idea, in the end,

0:15:13 > 0:15:15the brothers ran out of Dragon options.

0:15:15 > 0:15:19The buttons are introduced because they're water-saving.

0:15:19 > 0:15:21Not only would I not want it used on my site,

0:15:21 > 0:15:23I wouldn't want it to be sold on my site.

0:15:23 > 0:15:26If you've got a problem in a gym

0:15:26 > 0:15:29where these are coming out after a few seconds...

0:15:29 > 0:15:32leave it, and join a quality gym.

0:15:32 > 0:15:33I'm out.

0:15:37 > 0:15:40Age is no barrier to success in the Den.

0:15:40 > 0:15:43If the idea's good enough, the Dragons will back it.

0:15:43 > 0:15:47I expect that's what 22-year-old student Harrison Woods is hoping.

0:15:47 > 0:15:50He's next to descend the stairs.

0:16:12 > 0:16:13Hello, Dragons.

0:16:13 > 0:16:16My name is Harrison Woods, founder of Primal Parking,

0:16:16 > 0:16:20and I'm asking for £60,000 in exchange for 20% equity.

0:16:20 > 0:16:25Primal is a letting agency for privately owned parking spaces,

0:16:25 > 0:16:28operating around a functional online site and phone application.

0:16:29 > 0:16:32We allow individuals and businesses the opportunity to advertise

0:16:32 > 0:16:36their unused or under-utilised parking to gain additional revenue.

0:16:36 > 0:16:40To book a space, type in the postcode or event you wish to park around.

0:16:40 > 0:16:41Primal will then scour its database,

0:16:41 > 0:16:45generating the most appropriate results within a one-mile radius,

0:16:45 > 0:16:48and it's only once we then let out the space, do we take a fee

0:16:48 > 0:16:51of 15% plus VAT on gross monthly rentals.

0:16:51 > 0:16:52Further to this,

0:16:52 > 0:16:56we have additional revenue streams such as the Parking Guardian.

0:16:56 > 0:17:00It's an automatic parking barrier which fits into your space

0:17:00 > 0:17:04within 15 seconds, and then your space is protected from being taken.

0:17:11 > 0:17:15We hope when you think of parking, it's through Primal. I welcome any questions.

0:17:17 > 0:17:22A pitch bursting with enthusiasm from Bolton-based Harrison Woods.

0:17:22 > 0:17:24With a £60,000 investment,

0:17:24 > 0:17:29he planned to capitalise on the thousands of unused parking spaces across the UK.

0:17:29 > 0:17:34Deborah Meaden is first to tackle the excitable young entrepreneur.

0:17:35 > 0:17:37Thank you, Harrison.

0:17:37 > 0:17:40So, are you operating at the moment? Are you live?

0:17:40 > 0:17:42I'm not live. The online site isn't live.

0:17:42 > 0:17:44The barrier sales are,

0:17:44 > 0:17:47and it's helped me fund the initial investment

0:17:47 > 0:17:48- in the site and phone application. - OK.

0:17:48 > 0:17:51- Who else does this? - There's two companies.

0:17:51 > 0:17:54ParkatmyHouse, which has been operating since 2006,

0:17:54 > 0:17:58and there's one, ParkLet, which has been operating since 2004.

0:17:58 > 0:18:01So, you've got two big competitors who've been there

0:18:01 > 0:18:04a long time before you, so what's different

0:18:04 > 0:18:07between what you're offering and what they offer?

0:18:07 > 0:18:10What... At the moment it's a very...

0:18:10 > 0:18:13I think there's room for someone else to come in the market,

0:18:13 > 0:18:15especially with the fact that every day,

0:18:15 > 0:18:17knocking through doors, I go to a business,

0:18:17 > 0:18:22speak to what parking they need, and it's... The... It's crying out...

0:18:22 > 0:18:25Look, Harrison. You need to calm down a bit.

0:18:26 > 0:18:30What are they NOT doing that you can do?

0:18:30 > 0:18:34Their operations is lacking in some areas, which I believe I can...

0:18:34 > 0:18:36Specifically.

0:18:36 > 0:18:39They do not have a phone application which allows instant booking.

0:18:39 > 0:18:43- So the only point of difference at the moment...- Yes.

0:18:43 > 0:18:46- is that they don't have a... But you don't have a phone app, do you?- No.

0:18:46 > 0:18:48At the moment the app is developed

0:18:48 > 0:18:51and I've been given a date of two weeks until we launch

0:18:51 > 0:18:53and you can download it on your phone and...

0:18:55 > 0:18:58A nervy start for Harrison.

0:18:58 > 0:19:00How will the fledgling businessman cope

0:19:00 > 0:19:04under interrogation from Theo Paphitis?

0:19:06 > 0:19:09I'm Theo. Listen, you're an enthusiastic fella.

0:19:09 > 0:19:11You've come bounding in here.

0:19:12 > 0:19:16You've got an idea, but that's it.

0:19:16 > 0:19:18I've managed to...

0:19:18 > 0:19:21This, this... I've got 600 registered people

0:19:21 > 0:19:23who are willing to put the details,

0:19:23 > 0:19:27- and that's just from me, between university...- Harrison.

0:19:27 > 0:19:31It's going to cost a lot of money to actually build the site and create the app.

0:19:31 > 0:19:33It's being finan... None of the...

0:19:33 > 0:19:36The investment would go... This has all been financed.

0:19:36 > 0:19:39- This has all been financed? - I didn't...

0:19:39 > 0:19:41Er... Uh... Someone owns 20% of the company,

0:19:41 > 0:19:43who owns a web design company,

0:19:43 > 0:19:47who's putting their staff and assets into building this site.

0:19:47 > 0:19:50And they're going to build the app as well?

0:19:50 > 0:19:52- Yes.- Excellent.

0:19:53 > 0:19:56Harrison. Talk to me about

0:19:56 > 0:20:00the people that you say are writing the app.

0:20:00 > 0:20:04Jonathan, I met him through barrier sales

0:20:04 > 0:20:07and I knocked on his door and got talking to him

0:20:07 > 0:20:10and then he offered to fund and build the site.

0:20:10 > 0:20:15- And how qualified is he? - He's owned a web design company for the past 15 years.

0:20:15 > 0:20:18He specialises in e-commerce sites, originally.

0:20:19 > 0:20:22He's experienced through selling companies online. He's got great experience in it.

0:20:24 > 0:20:25How old are you, Harrison?

0:20:25 > 0:20:29- 22.- 22.

0:20:29 > 0:20:32The charming Harrison settles enough

0:20:32 > 0:20:34to reveal some substance behind his business.

0:20:34 > 0:20:38Now, Duncan Bannatyne wants to drill down into the detail.

0:20:40 > 0:20:42Who's your typical customer,

0:20:42 > 0:20:46who's going to rent out his car-parking space?

0:20:46 > 0:20:48Anyone who doesn't utilise it.

0:20:48 > 0:20:52My brother has a parking space laid dormant. His girlfriend has one...

0:20:52 > 0:20:55- So, it's residential parking? - Residential parking spaces.

0:20:55 > 0:20:58You'd be surprised... All these apartments next to buildings,

0:20:58 > 0:21:01there'll be dormant car parks under there which aren't used...

0:21:01 > 0:21:04- But it's got to be limited?- No.

0:21:04 > 0:21:06I know the prices, know what I can achieve,

0:21:06 > 0:21:08- I've got people signed up... - The apartment block

0:21:08 > 0:21:14- I have a company flat in, in Covent Garden, has got 50 apartments.- Yep.

0:21:14 > 0:21:17How many car-parking spaces would you expect to be in the basement?

0:21:17 > 0:21:19If they've got 50 builds, I'd expect 20,

0:21:19 > 0:21:2130 parking spaces in the building.

0:21:23 > 0:21:24Three.

0:21:24 > 0:21:27- Three.- Yep.

0:21:29 > 0:21:32This is just...not working for me.

0:21:32 > 0:21:35I'm not seeing this as a business. I'm out.

0:21:35 > 0:21:37Thank you.

0:21:40 > 0:21:43A disappointing setback for the young entrepreneur

0:21:43 > 0:21:45as he loses his first Dragon.

0:21:45 > 0:21:48And Deborah Meaden is now ready to show her hand.

0:21:51 > 0:21:54There are three reasons this business would work.

0:21:54 > 0:21:57First-mover advantage -

0:21:57 > 0:21:58you haven't got that.

0:21:58 > 0:22:02You've got something that the others can't do -

0:22:02 > 0:22:04you couldn't convince me what that was.

0:22:06 > 0:22:08Thirdly,

0:22:08 > 0:22:10you have come up with something completely new...

0:22:13 > 0:22:15..you haven't done that.

0:22:15 > 0:22:17I won't be investing, Harrison,

0:22:17 > 0:22:19- and I'm out.- Thank you.

0:22:25 > 0:22:29I think it's a shame that you didn't bring your programmers with you,

0:22:29 > 0:22:31because, to me,

0:22:31 > 0:22:34it's all supposition - y'know,

0:22:34 > 0:22:36it's IF the website gets up and running,

0:22:36 > 0:22:39- IF there are...- I have letters

0:22:39 > 0:22:42from companies I've spoken to who are going to adopt the system...

0:22:42 > 0:22:45But that's not sufficient

0:22:45 > 0:22:47for anybody to invest in you.

0:22:48 > 0:22:51I think you're far too precipitous being here today.

0:22:53 > 0:22:55I'm out.

0:22:57 > 0:23:00The early infectious enthusiasm withers away

0:23:00 > 0:23:02and just two Dragons remain.

0:23:02 > 0:23:07Will Peter Jones see something in Harrison that his rivals have not?

0:23:10 > 0:23:11Harrison.

0:23:11 > 0:23:15I have to say, I do quite like the concept.

0:23:15 > 0:23:18The sad thing is that it's not there. Yet.

0:23:21 > 0:23:22- So, putting this to one side... - Yeah.

0:23:22 > 0:23:24..can I ask a little bit about your background,

0:23:24 > 0:23:27what have you done up until this point?

0:23:27 > 0:23:31I'm at university, studying geography at Manchester.

0:23:31 > 0:23:35I was at Liverpool University, two years ago

0:23:35 > 0:23:37and then I did a ski season, had an accident,

0:23:37 > 0:23:40quite a bad leg injury, it put me out for a while.

0:23:42 > 0:23:44I started importing these products.

0:23:44 > 0:23:47I've got a lot of ideas bubbling in me

0:23:47 > 0:23:49and things which I've pushed and driven...

0:23:49 > 0:23:52- What did they cost to buy?- £50.85.

0:23:52 > 0:23:56OK, what have you sold them for?

0:23:56 > 0:23:57£250 a unit.

0:23:58 > 0:24:02And I've sold 67 units, selling it direct through myself,

0:24:02 > 0:24:05- knocking on doors!- Wow!

0:24:05 > 0:24:09- You made £12,000 just selling those? - Just selling them.

0:24:09 > 0:24:14Harrison, I do feel that at some stage if you carry on that tenacity,

0:24:14 > 0:24:16you will achieve.

0:24:17 > 0:24:20So, if I give you £60,000,

0:24:20 > 0:24:22what am I going to get back?

0:24:22 > 0:24:25Net turnover in the first year is £120,000.

0:24:25 > 0:24:30- The first year, it's a loss of £68,000.- Right.

0:24:30 > 0:24:33Second year, its turnover is £430,000.

0:24:33 > 0:24:35Profit of £170,000.

0:24:35 > 0:24:38- Right.- And final year is £1.75 million.

0:24:38 > 0:24:41Profit of £790,000.

0:24:44 > 0:24:47Of your competitors, have any of them

0:24:47 > 0:24:51- made anything like these profits? - All I know is that

0:24:51 > 0:24:56reportedly ParkatmyHouse, they had investment late last year

0:24:56 > 0:25:00and they've made over £10 million, for space users within the UK alone.

0:25:04 > 0:25:06Harrison.

0:25:06 > 0:25:08There is something about you.

0:25:08 > 0:25:10My head says...

0:25:10 > 0:25:13he's going to be really high maintenance and difficult to manage.

0:25:13 > 0:25:15My gut says...

0:25:15 > 0:25:17at 22...

0:25:17 > 0:25:19did you have the cojones...

0:25:19 > 0:25:22to pitch in front of five Dragons?

0:25:22 > 0:25:24I think I would have struggled.

0:25:27 > 0:25:29I'm going to make you an offer.

0:25:29 > 0:25:34The reason why I'm doing it is...

0:25:34 > 0:25:36I want to be there...

0:25:39 > 0:25:41..when you make it.

0:25:42 > 0:25:46But, you are a pure...

0:25:46 > 0:25:50out and out punt.

0:25:52 > 0:25:55So, I'm going to offer you half of the money,

0:25:55 > 0:25:57for 20%.

0:25:59 > 0:26:01Thank you, Theo.

0:26:06 > 0:26:08In a dramatic turnaround, Theo Paphitis

0:26:08 > 0:26:10offers an unlikely lifeline.

0:26:10 > 0:26:12But strict Den rules state

0:26:12 > 0:26:15Harrison must receive the full amount he's asking for

0:26:15 > 0:26:17or he walks away with nothing.

0:26:17 > 0:26:22His only hope now lies with Peter Jones.

0:26:26 > 0:26:30- How are you feeling Harrison? - Pretty...pretty, ah, nervous.

0:26:40 > 0:26:43What you've pitched, anybody could do that.

0:26:46 > 0:26:48But then again, you did it.

0:26:53 > 0:26:56What would you like to happen, Harrison?

0:26:56 > 0:27:01I think, the dream would be for both yourself and Theo

0:27:01 > 0:27:05to be involved in this with me.

0:27:07 > 0:27:10Since Theo's given that offer, I haven't touched my pen.

0:27:10 > 0:27:11But...

0:27:13 > 0:27:14..I wrote down...

0:27:16 > 0:27:19..£60,000, the full amount of money,

0:27:19 > 0:27:21for 40% of your business.

0:27:23 > 0:27:26Which was the offer that I was going to make to you,

0:27:26 > 0:27:28and it's the offer that I will make to you,

0:27:28 > 0:27:34and I'd be more than happy to split that offer with Theo.

0:27:42 > 0:27:45I'd like to accept both yourself and Theo's offer.

0:27:45 > 0:27:48You don't want to think about that? Don't want to negotiate?

0:27:48 > 0:27:51I don't want to, I don't want to!

0:27:51 > 0:27:54- Brilliant! - Thank you for your time,

0:27:54 > 0:27:56- I appreciate it.- Well done! - Thanks.

0:27:56 > 0:27:59- I appreciate it. - Harrison has done it.

0:27:59 > 0:28:05Two Dragons came at twice the price, but he really doesn't seem concerned about that.

0:28:11 > 0:28:14At the moment, my feelings are... I cannot explain it.

0:28:14 > 0:28:17I'm taken back, I honestly am just taken back.

0:28:17 > 0:28:21I'll tell my mum and dad first, I'm pretty sure.

0:28:21 > 0:28:24I'll wait till I'm in front of them, so they don't fall over in shock!

0:28:30 > 0:28:33Many businesses' pitch to the Dragons

0:28:33 > 0:28:35centre around life's big events -

0:28:35 > 0:28:38ideas inspired by birth and marriage are always popular.

0:28:38 > 0:28:41But Barbara Chalmers from Glasgow's business

0:28:41 > 0:28:45was based on another stage of the life cycle.

0:28:45 > 0:28:48A samba band, personalised cardboard coffin,

0:28:48 > 0:28:50that's what I'd like for my funeral.

0:28:51 > 0:28:53Final Fling is a niche website.

0:28:53 > 0:28:57You can go online, you can make a will, you can record your wishes

0:28:57 > 0:29:00and families can access it when they need to.

0:29:00 > 0:29:02SHE PLAYS DRUMS

0:29:02 > 0:29:06The concept of Barbara's funeral-planning website

0:29:06 > 0:29:08certainly grabbed the attention of the Dragons.

0:29:08 > 0:29:11I've always got a great belief that your business

0:29:11 > 0:29:13should say what it does on the tin.

0:29:13 > 0:29:16So, why Final Fling?

0:29:16 > 0:29:19I did quite a lot of research before I set out on this

0:29:19 > 0:29:23and there was a real celebration actually around that title,

0:29:23 > 0:29:27because for people it's like "Yeah, we are all going to die, so let's embrace that."

0:29:27 > 0:29:29But confusion reigned

0:29:29 > 0:29:33once the Dragons got into the detail of the business.

0:29:33 > 0:29:37How much do you hope to turn over, then, in your first year?

0:29:37 > 0:29:39- £600,000.- How much is profit?

0:29:39 > 0:29:41- 75%.- Wow!

0:29:41 > 0:29:43Then you take off your VAT.

0:29:43 > 0:29:46Then you won't be making 75% of that as profit, will you?

0:29:46 > 0:29:49Well, 75% of our gross profit,

0:29:49 > 0:29:51like 25% of our costs

0:29:51 > 0:29:54would have to come off, the rest of it is profit.

0:29:54 > 0:29:56Barbara, Barbara! Just a minute!

0:29:56 > 0:29:58You've lost me!

0:29:58 > 0:30:01Finally, it was the subject matter itself

0:30:01 > 0:30:04that marked the finale of Barbara's Den fling.

0:30:04 > 0:30:06Quite frankly, while I'm alive, I want to be alive,

0:30:06 > 0:30:10I don't want to be spending my life contemplating death. However...

0:30:10 > 0:30:15if I did want to talk about it, I would talk to my family about it.

0:30:15 > 0:30:16It's not going to work.

0:30:16 > 0:30:19- We'll see about that.- I'm out.

0:30:19 > 0:30:22So far tonight, only one entrepreneur

0:30:22 > 0:30:26- has received the backing of the multi-millionaire investors. - Well done.

0:30:26 > 0:30:28Thanks for your time, I appreciate it.

0:30:28 > 0:30:30Will any of these intrepid businessmen and women

0:30:30 > 0:30:34manage to part the Dragons from their hard-earned cash?

0:30:37 > 0:30:41The Dragons know the majority of new businesses fail,

0:30:41 > 0:30:44so they need big returns from the ones that succeed

0:30:44 > 0:30:46to cover the losses on the ones that don't.

0:30:46 > 0:30:48Will our next entrepreneur convince them

0:30:48 > 0:30:51that her business is a risk worth taking?

0:31:17 > 0:31:19Hello, my name is Caroline Brown.

0:31:19 > 0:31:24I've come today please to ask for £80,000 of your money,

0:31:24 > 0:31:27for 30% of my company.

0:31:27 > 0:31:32The Huntingford Company is passionate about thinking up devices

0:31:32 > 0:31:34for people as they get older,

0:31:34 > 0:31:38and I'd like to position myself to be the essential friend

0:31:38 > 0:31:40for the over-60s.

0:31:41 > 0:31:45When I was nursing, when I was a bit of an old bag... I had to retrain as a nurse,

0:31:45 > 0:31:48and I did it in a district which was brilliant, I really enjoyed myself.

0:31:48 > 0:31:52But I came across two huge problems that cropped up frequently.

0:31:52 > 0:31:55This is the StickStay.

0:31:55 > 0:31:59If you have anything to do with sticks

0:31:59 > 0:32:02you have one mission in life and that is to hit the deck, and it's a real nuisance.

0:32:04 > 0:32:07So, they can be positioned anywhere.

0:32:07 > 0:32:10My ambition is to have one next to every single loo in the country.

0:32:10 > 0:32:14The other thing was, older people that find it difficult bending down

0:32:14 > 0:32:17to pick up their pet bowls from the floor,

0:32:17 > 0:32:21and all the rest of it, so this is the most amazing thing, simple.

0:32:21 > 0:32:24eeZee Feeder. Just like that,

0:32:24 > 0:32:26they click on and off, very easily.

0:32:26 > 0:32:29Problem solved, no bending.

0:32:29 > 0:32:31Thank you for your time, thank you.

0:32:35 > 0:32:39A jaunty pitch from entrepreneur Caroline Brown from Dorset.

0:32:39 > 0:32:42With the UK's ageing population in mind,

0:32:42 > 0:32:46she's created simple solutions to backbreaking problems

0:32:46 > 0:32:50and needs £80,000 to take her inventions to market.

0:32:50 > 0:32:52But Peter Jones looks perplexed.

0:32:55 > 0:32:57I don't have much experience in this,

0:32:57 > 0:33:00so, there are times in the Den where you've got to draw on expertise

0:33:00 > 0:33:04of certain Dragons - you know,

0:33:04 > 0:33:06from Theo's retail experience, logistics with Hilary,

0:33:06 > 0:33:10marketing, Deborah, but this type of product for the old age individual,

0:33:10 > 0:33:13I'm going to have to sit quietly and listen to see what Duncan thinks.

0:33:13 > 0:33:16Yes, yes, I know Duncan's background.

0:33:16 > 0:33:19What he's referring to is my age.

0:33:19 > 0:33:22- No, no, care home experience. - Yes, yes!

0:33:22 > 0:33:24THEY LAUGH

0:33:24 > 0:33:26Ooh, touchy!

0:33:26 > 0:33:30I actually think that's quite a neat little product.

0:33:30 > 0:33:33- Yes.- If you've got cats. It is. If you don't mind me saying though,

0:33:33 > 0:33:36I find this other thing ridiculous.

0:33:36 > 0:33:38- Right.- It isn't, Peter.

0:33:38 > 0:33:41- Is it not?- No. - I'm really missing it.

0:33:41 > 0:33:43My mum, God bless her soul,

0:33:43 > 0:33:45- would have loved that.- Really?- Yeah.

0:33:45 > 0:33:48- Mmm.- Wow.

0:33:48 > 0:33:49What normally happens...?

0:33:49 > 0:33:54Well, what normally happens - I mean I don't know, but it won't do it now

0:33:54 > 0:33:57because of Whatnot's Law - but if you leave a stick

0:33:57 > 0:34:01leaning up against something, it will fall.

0:34:01 > 0:34:03Far easier just to click your stick in

0:34:03 > 0:34:07than to have to hoick it up from the floor again.

0:34:09 > 0:34:13For once, it's a Dragon who's taught a lesson in the Den,

0:34:13 > 0:34:16as the confident entrepreneur brings Peter Jones up to speed.

0:34:16 > 0:34:21But how will Caroline fare under the scrutiny of Deborah Meaden?

0:34:21 > 0:34:25So, is there anything to your knowledge

0:34:25 > 0:34:28that exists, for instance, like that pet bowl?

0:34:28 > 0:34:34No, there are other things for pets on, like, a step,

0:34:34 > 0:34:37but that's from the pet's point of view. It doesn't have to bend down.

0:34:37 > 0:34:41- It doesn't help the owner. - I've got one with a handle already.

0:34:41 > 0:34:45Yes, I know the one you mean, but again, it's not a very long handle.

0:34:45 > 0:34:50- No. It's not as long as that, but it's quite a long handle.- Yes,

0:34:50 > 0:34:53but again, you'd have to bend down.

0:34:53 > 0:34:57- So, have you got any interest? - The interest that I've received,

0:34:57 > 0:35:01apart from everybody surrounding - but you can't count family and friends

0:35:01 > 0:35:03because they're probably a bit biased...

0:35:03 > 0:35:05but Pets at Home,

0:35:05 > 0:35:09I've just entered an innovation contest

0:35:09 > 0:35:12for new pet products, which is nice, and the Royal College of Nursing

0:35:12 > 0:35:15is taking a huge interest in the StickStay.

0:35:18 > 0:35:20A fledgling company perhaps,

0:35:20 > 0:35:23but Caroline's products seem to be creating quite a stir.

0:35:23 > 0:35:26Now, Duncan Bannatyne

0:35:26 > 0:35:29wants to drill down into the numbers.

0:35:29 > 0:35:32What do they cost you to make?

0:35:32 > 0:35:37- The StickStay costs about 50p, 60p.- What does it sell for?

0:35:37 > 0:35:40Individually, I think I'd sell them for about £3,

0:35:40 > 0:35:43say to councils, for loos and things, that's what I've done.

0:35:43 > 0:35:47I would probably make...

0:35:47 > 0:35:51- about £1.50.- OK.

0:35:51 > 0:35:53There's a huge market out there,

0:35:53 > 0:35:56there's about, 12 million-ish

0:35:56 > 0:35:59of us that are now pensionable age.

0:36:01 > 0:36:04Caroline, I think that's ingenious.

0:36:04 > 0:36:07Simple, but does what it says on the tin, so, brilliant.

0:36:07 > 0:36:10The pet food bowl...

0:36:10 > 0:36:14- there's millions and trillions of them.- But nobody WANTS to bend down.

0:36:14 > 0:36:17A lot of people say you don't have to have any disability to want these.

0:36:17 > 0:36:19We all have remote controls at home -

0:36:19 > 0:36:23we can fiddle with the television, but we feel we don't want to.

0:36:23 > 0:36:28But, I'm not even sure, having that pole, especially for a bigger dog,

0:36:28 > 0:36:31is going to be any good, because once that bigger dog

0:36:31 > 0:36:36moves around with his tail, he's likely to knock that over.

0:36:36 > 0:36:37Yes, yes. It has non-slip...

0:36:37 > 0:36:42It's not the slipping, it's the tipping, it's the tipping.

0:36:42 > 0:36:47- I have big dogs...- Yes. - ..and they are clumsy.

0:36:47 > 0:36:50I'm not going to say don't do it, I think that's brilliant.

0:36:50 > 0:36:54Keep following your dreams on that one, but I shan't be investing, so I'm afraid I'm out.

0:36:54 > 0:36:56Thank you for your time anyway.

0:36:58 > 0:37:02A blow for Caroline, as she loses her first Dragon.

0:37:02 > 0:37:06But there are still four multi-millionaire investors left

0:37:06 > 0:37:09and Peter Jones looks ready to show his hand.

0:37:11 > 0:37:12It's a nice product

0:37:12 > 0:37:15that has a use, you've proved it.

0:37:15 > 0:37:18But I can't see how you could make a business

0:37:18 > 0:37:22out of those two items. I don't think for £80,000 I'd ever see any money back.

0:37:22 > 0:37:26- And if I can't see it, I can't invest.- No, quite right. - I'm going to say politely, I'm out.

0:37:26 > 0:37:29Thank you anyway, thank you for your time.

0:37:29 > 0:37:34If I were you, I'd concentrate on that and spend your time... That's your background,

0:37:34 > 0:37:37that's where your contacts are. I'd concentrate on that,

0:37:37 > 0:37:41get that sold into the NHS, care homes, whatever.

0:37:41 > 0:37:45Because I think that is neat, it's just you've got to sell too many

0:37:45 > 0:37:49at such a low unit cost to give an investor a return,

0:37:49 > 0:37:51so I'm afraid I won't be investing, I'm out.

0:37:51 > 0:37:53Right.

0:37:55 > 0:37:57I know quite a lot of old people

0:37:57 > 0:38:00and I know from my mother's disability.

0:38:00 > 0:38:02She waited and waited and waited and waited...

0:38:02 > 0:38:04in fact she HATED to be seen with a stick.

0:38:04 > 0:38:06Oh yes, I can sympathise with that.

0:38:06 > 0:38:09She would hide it,

0:38:09 > 0:38:13rather than let people know she needed a stick.

0:38:13 > 0:38:18I applaud the thought and the care that you've put into these products,

0:38:18 > 0:38:21but for me, it's not a commercial investment.

0:38:21 > 0:38:24- No.- So, unfortunately, I'm out.

0:38:26 > 0:38:29Three Dragons out in quick succession,

0:38:29 > 0:38:32and the well-mannered entrepreneur's hopes of investment

0:38:32 > 0:38:36now rest solely with Duncan Bannatyne.

0:38:36 > 0:38:39I can see a need for it, but this is a very, very,

0:38:39 > 0:38:43- very limited market.- Limited?- Yeah.

0:38:43 > 0:38:46I did invest once in a company that sold this type of product,

0:38:46 > 0:38:51these type of aids, and it is a very, very difficult market.

0:38:51 > 0:38:55So, I can't see how they can possibly

0:38:55 > 0:38:57sell fast enough to make enough money

0:38:57 > 0:39:00to give an investor a return.

0:39:00 > 0:39:03So for that reason, and that reason only, I'm going to have to say

0:39:03 > 0:39:05I'm out.

0:39:05 > 0:39:07Right. Thank you for your time.

0:39:07 > 0:39:09Thank you.

0:39:11 > 0:39:16It was an unusually courteous pitch, but the cruel reality is

0:39:16 > 0:39:18that Caroline leaves the Den with nothing.

0:39:27 > 0:39:30Others who tried and failed in the Den included Rebecca Jane from Manchester,

0:39:30 > 0:39:33who having set up many companies of her own,

0:39:33 > 0:39:34including a detective agency,

0:39:34 > 0:39:39now wanted to help raise the press profile of other small businesses.

0:39:39 > 0:39:42We're not your average public relations company.

0:39:42 > 0:39:44Journalists get in contact with us, they tell us

0:39:44 > 0:39:47what they want to put it in their newspapers and magazines.

0:39:47 > 0:39:51We then send out these requests to our subscribers.

0:39:51 > 0:39:54If these people were to have paid for advertising in the national press,

0:39:54 > 0:39:56they would have paid over £50,000.

0:39:56 > 0:39:59What we do is we charge them £15 per month.

0:40:01 > 0:40:05Duncan Bannatyne was first to interrogate the confident 27-year-old.

0:40:05 > 0:40:08So, the newspaper comes to you

0:40:08 > 0:40:10with a request, and you send it to your clients?

0:40:10 > 0:40:13- Yes.- And that's all you do?- Yes.

0:40:13 > 0:40:15We're there to send out the request,

0:40:15 > 0:40:17they're there to get themselves in the papers.

0:40:17 > 0:40:18That's not PR.

0:40:18 > 0:40:20No, that's what I say, it's PR with a difference.

0:40:20 > 0:40:24But in the end, Rebecca's new PR model

0:40:24 > 0:40:28failed to grab the attention or the cash of these Dragons.

0:40:28 > 0:40:33Small business, I totally agree with you, it wants to raise its profile,

0:40:33 > 0:40:35but when they engage a PR company,

0:40:35 > 0:40:38they want focus, what they don't want is a scattergun approach.

0:40:38 > 0:40:40Peter is absolutely right.

0:40:40 > 0:40:44As a customer, if I said to you, "How many people do you look after?"

0:40:44 > 0:40:47and you said, "300", I would think, "That's not good, is it?"

0:40:47 > 0:40:49PR is relationship-driven

0:40:49 > 0:40:54and the business that you're pitching is not relationship-driven.

0:40:54 > 0:40:56It doesn't work.

0:40:56 > 0:40:58So, I'm out.

0:40:58 > 0:41:01Simon Zhao from China and business partner James Whybrow

0:41:01 > 0:41:03were next into the Den

0:41:03 > 0:41:06with an eye-catching pitch for their ornate tea company.

0:41:07 > 0:41:09SOULFUL MOOD MUSIC

0:41:10 > 0:41:12Flora Tea is not just tea,

0:41:12 > 0:41:15it's naturally-flavoured herbal flowers

0:41:15 > 0:41:20forming an artistic floral display. Flora Tea - as easy as ABC.

0:41:21 > 0:41:23Top marks for presentation,

0:41:23 > 0:41:25but it's the proposition that prevails in the Den.

0:41:25 > 0:41:29It looks wonderful, but what's been the return to date?

0:41:29 > 0:41:33Year one, a loss of £5,000,

0:41:33 > 0:41:35year two, £15,000

0:41:35 > 0:41:37and this year, lost £18,000.

0:41:39 > 0:41:42It wasn't the losses alone that concerned Duncan Bannatyne.

0:41:42 > 0:41:45What makes this different from any other tea you can buy?

0:41:45 > 0:41:49It's a new way of presenting tea. The people we speak to give us very good feedback.

0:41:49 > 0:41:52James, James, you stick the bag in,

0:41:52 > 0:41:54and you make the tea and you drink the tea.

0:41:54 > 0:41:58How you presented the tea to the teapot doesn't really matter, does it?

0:41:58 > 0:42:02In the end, their pitch certainly engaged the senses,

0:42:02 > 0:42:05but sadly for the duo, not the one marked business.

0:42:05 > 0:42:08If your product was going to sell,

0:42:08 > 0:42:10you'd have seen some results by now.

0:42:10 > 0:42:14The turnover was doubled from £15,000...

0:42:14 > 0:42:19That doesn't matter if you're turning over £160,000, if you're losing money at the end of it!

0:42:19 > 0:42:22Turnover's vanity, profit's sanity,

0:42:22 > 0:42:25cash is reality. I'm out.

0:42:28 > 0:42:30Landscape gardener Michael Smith

0:42:30 > 0:42:32created his product 20 years ago,

0:42:32 > 0:42:37but it was his son, Joe, who spotted it could have mass-market potential.

0:42:37 > 0:42:40Now, they just have to get a Dragon or two to agree.

0:43:02 > 0:43:08- Hi, guys.- My name's Joe Smith and this is my father Michael Smith.

0:43:08 > 0:43:11We're here today to ask for £50,000, for 10% equity.

0:43:11 > 0:43:15What we would like to do today, is to show you the Wheelbarrow Booster.

0:43:15 > 0:43:20OK, this is about half a bag of material.

0:43:24 > 0:43:27And that's about what you'll get in your standard barrow,

0:43:27 > 0:43:30before you start losing it all over the place.

0:43:30 > 0:43:33Now then, if I attach a booster to it,

0:43:33 > 0:43:38like so, strap it over the front...

0:43:38 > 0:43:40Make sure it's a uniform fit all the way round,

0:43:40 > 0:43:42you notice how easy that went on.

0:43:42 > 0:43:45So now you've got...

0:43:50 > 0:43:52..300% worth of material in that.

0:43:52 > 0:43:56You wouldn't believe that there's a million wheelbarrows

0:43:56 > 0:43:59made and sold in the UK, purely to the UK every year.

0:43:59 > 0:44:02There's a million horses in the UK as well

0:44:02 > 0:44:06and every horse is a potential customer. Right now, we've sold

0:44:06 > 0:44:091,000 sample booster units.

0:44:09 > 0:44:11We've got 7,000 that have been pre-ordered,

0:44:11 > 0:44:13deposits have been paid for -

0:44:13 > 0:44:18obviously we have evidence which we can back this up with.

0:44:18 > 0:44:20- Thank you for your time.- Thank you.

0:44:23 > 0:44:26A no-nonsense pitch from father-and-son team

0:44:26 > 0:44:28Michael and Joe Smith from Keighley.

0:44:28 > 0:44:30For just 10% of their company,

0:44:30 > 0:44:33they want a £50,000 investment

0:44:33 > 0:44:37to take their rather nifty wheelbarrow extender

0:44:37 > 0:44:40- into the mass market.- Carry on.

0:44:40 > 0:44:42Hilary Devey looks impressed.

0:44:44 > 0:44:47- Hi, Joe.- Hello.- Hi, Michael.- Hiya.

0:44:47 > 0:44:50I think it's really simple, very innovative.

0:44:50 > 0:44:54It saves a lot of time and energy, a lot of walking about.

0:44:54 > 0:44:57Tell me about your own backgrounds.

0:44:57 > 0:45:01My background is landscape gardening, which is how it came about.

0:45:01 > 0:45:05I tried to think of a way of getting more in my barrow, you know,

0:45:05 > 0:45:07in one go, to save me traipsing. I came up with this

0:45:07 > 0:45:10and it's only, probably, just over 12 months ago

0:45:10 > 0:45:15Joe asked me what became of it because he used to help me as a kid.

0:45:15 > 0:45:16Um, and I said, "It's still about."

0:45:16 > 0:45:19And he said, "Well, I think we can do something with it now."

0:45:19 > 0:45:22You know, we got up and running and here we are basically.

0:45:22 > 0:45:23What about you, Joe?

0:45:23 > 0:45:26I work in accountancy recruitment

0:45:26 > 0:45:29and I've done that for about nine years, ever since I left university.

0:45:29 > 0:45:33And your plans are to take this to a mass market?

0:45:33 > 0:45:35- We would like to. - UK, Europe and the States?

0:45:35 > 0:45:40We're getting interest from all over the world. E-mails daily.

0:45:40 > 0:45:42How are you generating that interest currently?

0:45:42 > 0:45:43Er, well...

0:45:43 > 0:45:46Well, I don't know.

0:45:46 > 0:45:49I mean, well...daft as I...

0:45:49 > 0:45:53I push it as much as I can.

0:45:53 > 0:45:56Say I feel that we're not getting enough interest, I'll spend time

0:45:56 > 0:45:59as I can trying to grow awareness on anything - social media sites...

0:45:59 > 0:46:02Horse & Hound have done a little piece for us,

0:46:02 > 0:46:05The English Garden magazine did a piece on us,

0:46:05 > 0:46:07the Garden News, a national newspaper,

0:46:07 > 0:46:09they did a big two-page spread.

0:46:09 > 0:46:13Basically we spend a lot of time just writing out to everyone we could.

0:46:14 > 0:46:17A self-assured start for the duo.

0:46:17 > 0:46:22Will Theo Paphitis share his rival's obvious interest?

0:46:23 > 0:46:28Guys, you've got a product which... I don't know why anyone hasn't thought of it before.

0:46:28 > 0:46:29- It's ingenious.- Yeah.

0:46:31 > 0:46:33The 7,000 you had deposits in,

0:46:33 > 0:46:37is it from consumers, or from retailers, or...

0:46:37 > 0:46:40Deposit from three of the largest equestrian wholesalers

0:46:40 > 0:46:42in the country,

0:46:42 > 0:46:44there are shopping channels - including QVC -

0:46:44 > 0:46:49and there is an international company within the USA.

0:46:49 > 0:46:52A lot of these orders have come in in the last two or three months.

0:46:52 > 0:46:54It's taken us by surprise at how it's mushroomed.

0:46:54 > 0:46:59I'd like to feel that with a Dragon on board, instead of

0:46:59 > 0:47:02going to a wholesaler we'd be able to knock down doors

0:47:02 > 0:47:03direct to the retailer.

0:47:03 > 0:47:05- DEBORAH:- Um, can I ask a question?

0:47:05 > 0:47:08Can you tell me, which do you see as the biggest market?

0:47:08 > 0:47:10Is it landscaping, or is it equestrian?

0:47:10 > 0:47:12Both.

0:47:12 > 0:47:16I see the biggest market being garden centres et cetera.

0:47:16 > 0:47:19And we do have a company that's actually offered

0:47:19 > 0:47:22a licensing agreement.

0:47:22 > 0:47:25They've been in the gardening business 20 years.

0:47:25 > 0:47:30They've shown it to the largest German garden centre retailer

0:47:30 > 0:47:32who has got 350 stores.

0:47:32 > 0:47:35They've also had an agreement through an English retailer

0:47:35 > 0:47:37who's got 147 stores.

0:47:37 > 0:47:39And if you talk about royalties,

0:47:39 > 0:47:41usually they give you an idea of how many they're going to sell.

0:47:41 > 0:47:43So how many did you...

0:47:43 > 0:47:46They said 100,000 within a year they believed they could sell.

0:47:46 > 0:47:49- THEO:- Was there a minimum guarantee? - Minimum guarantee of 30,000.

0:47:51 > 0:47:54They wanted to take full control and offer us between, like,

0:47:54 > 0:47:5730 and 50p per unit, which right now we've turned down.

0:47:57 > 0:47:59We said, "Go away and sharpen your pencil."

0:48:03 > 0:48:06Multiple market potential and interest from overseas -

0:48:06 > 0:48:09impressive stuff from the father and son.

0:48:09 > 0:48:13Now, Duncan Bannatyne wants to investigate the numbers.

0:48:16 > 0:48:19- Joe, you've sold 8,000 of these.- Yes.

0:48:19 > 0:48:22And so what's the revenue from that 8,000?

0:48:22 > 0:48:27The revenue from the total 8,000 is £47,000.

0:48:27 > 0:48:31Right. Um, so, what's your projected profit in the next year?

0:48:31 > 0:48:33Er, the business plan with a Dragon on board,

0:48:33 > 0:48:36the projected profit is £125,000.

0:48:36 > 0:48:41And we feel by year three, that we'll be turning over around £990,000

0:48:41 > 0:48:45and we feel that there'd be around £375,000 profit in that.

0:48:47 > 0:48:48OK.

0:48:50 > 0:48:52I'm going to make you an offer.

0:48:53 > 0:48:56But my concern is whether or not

0:48:56 > 0:49:00you can sell enough of these products

0:49:00 > 0:49:05to make enough profit to get your company worth £500,000.

0:49:08 > 0:49:12So I'm going to make you an offer of £50,000...

0:49:14 > 0:49:18..but I want 50% of the company.

0:49:22 > 0:49:26Yeah, it's a non-starter. We don't want to give away more than 10%.

0:49:27 > 0:49:32- Are you stuck at 10%?- Yeah.- So, you wouldn't take £50,000 for 11%?

0:49:32 > 0:49:34Would you give us 60 grand for 9%?

0:49:34 > 0:49:35DRAGONS CHUCKLE

0:49:35 > 0:49:39Would you take £50,000 for 11%?

0:49:39 > 0:49:43- Go on, then.- So you're not stuck at 10%?- Well, but you won't get to 11½.

0:49:47 > 0:49:50Calamity in the Den.

0:49:50 > 0:49:51Michael's forthright rejection

0:49:51 > 0:49:55causes indignation amongst the Dragon investors.

0:49:55 > 0:49:58And Deborah Meaden is not one to let him off the hook.

0:50:00 > 0:50:04OK, Duncan, can I just thank you, because I was sitting here

0:50:04 > 0:50:10thinking, "This is a really nice product and is it worth a punt?"

0:50:10 > 0:50:15But saying that you wouldn't go from 11% to 11½%

0:50:15 > 0:50:18having laid all your cards on the table,

0:50:18 > 0:50:20saying what a Dragon can bring to you,

0:50:20 > 0:50:22the difference it can make to the business,

0:50:22 > 0:50:27I can imagine what would happen if we were working together

0:50:27 > 0:50:31and you didn't want to do something that I thought was going to make the difference to the business.

0:50:31 > 0:50:34- That's...- You'd be saying, "Absolutely not! That's what I said

0:50:34 > 0:50:38"this morning I was going to do and I'm not going to move one inch."

0:50:38 > 0:50:40You having a good idea is totally different

0:50:40 > 0:50:42from me moving off 10%, isn't it?

0:50:45 > 0:50:47Do you want an investor?

0:50:49 > 0:50:54Well, yeah, like I said. We need... I don't want to give 50...

0:50:54 > 0:50:57OK, can I just say?

0:50:57 > 0:51:00When you've had a good offer for 50%,

0:51:00 > 0:51:02- you could well have negotiated on that.- For 50 grand?!

0:51:02 > 0:51:06But I've got to tell you, you didn't look serious to me.

0:51:06 > 0:51:09- In what way?- You didn't look like you were in here to do a deal.

0:51:09 > 0:51:12Well, I wouldn't have signed anything here and now, would I?

0:51:12 > 0:51:17- There'd be thinking time involved. - Michael, I can't help you any more.

0:51:17 > 0:51:18I'm not going to invest. I'm out.

0:51:20 > 0:51:23Guys, you are valuing the business at half a million quid

0:51:23 > 0:51:27and the company that wanted exclusivity

0:51:27 > 0:51:29basically offered you ten grand.

0:51:29 > 0:51:31So Duncan's offer actually isn't that ridiculous

0:51:31 > 0:51:33when you look at it.

0:51:33 > 0:51:36In fact it could be argued that it's incredibly generous.

0:51:36 > 0:51:40We've both said 10% is what we're going to do.

0:51:40 > 0:51:43It's business at the end of the day - and we would discuss it,

0:51:43 > 0:51:46but then again you do have kneejerk reactions and, Duncan,

0:51:46 > 0:51:49thank you for your offer as well, by the way.

0:51:49 > 0:51:52Michael, let me help you.

0:51:52 > 0:51:55You are NOT a willing partner here. Your body language,

0:51:55 > 0:51:58everything that says it, you're not a willing partner.

0:51:58 > 0:51:59- Well, I accept that. Yes.- OK?

0:51:59 > 0:52:02And on that basis, there is no deal for me.

0:52:04 > 0:52:06I'm out.

0:52:10 > 0:52:13Ostracised by Michael's unwillingness to negotiate,

0:52:13 > 0:52:16two Dragons refuse to do business with the duo.

0:52:17 > 0:52:20But has Peter Jones got something on his mind?

0:52:23 > 0:52:25- Joe?- Yes.

0:52:25 > 0:52:27Is your goal to become wealthy,

0:52:27 > 0:52:32or is your goal to see your dad's legacy sell a lot of product?

0:52:32 > 0:52:33- The goal's to make money.- Right.

0:52:33 > 0:52:37- If your father wasn't in the room... - Yep.

0:52:37 > 0:52:41..and somebody said to you, "I want 50% of this business..."

0:52:41 > 0:52:42Yep.

0:52:42 > 0:52:46"..on the guarantee that you will make half a million pounds,"

0:52:46 > 0:52:49would you accept the deal?

0:52:49 > 0:52:50Er, yeah, I would.

0:52:51 > 0:52:52OK.

0:52:54 > 0:52:57I think you got that offer a few minutes ago from Duncan.

0:53:00 > 0:53:03Because he could generate income for that business

0:53:03 > 0:53:08worth half a million quid, and you dismissed it out of hand.

0:53:12 > 0:53:16And I think that would be the biggest lesson for your dad.

0:53:19 > 0:53:21It's what you want, and the money that you gain from a business,

0:53:21 > 0:53:23not how much of it you control or own.

0:53:23 > 0:53:25Mm.

0:53:25 > 0:53:29So I need to tell you that working with you guys, to me

0:53:29 > 0:53:30as an investor, doesn't work.

0:53:30 > 0:53:32So I'm out.

0:53:32 > 0:53:35- But I hope what I've said... - MICHAEL:- It'll be taken on board,

0:53:35 > 0:53:37- yeah. Yeah, thank you.- Be a lesson.

0:53:41 > 0:53:44A lesson in the Den and another Dragon out.

0:53:44 > 0:53:46Joe and his now sheepish father

0:53:46 > 0:53:49see their chances of investment slipping away.

0:53:50 > 0:53:54And Hilary Devey is ready to have her say, too.

0:53:57 > 0:53:59Can I be honest with you? Can I be really blunt?

0:53:59 > 0:54:03I think you've got a fantastic opportunity stood here,

0:54:03 > 0:54:04and I think you're saying

0:54:04 > 0:54:09all the wrong things that we do not want to hear.

0:54:09 > 0:54:11I understand what you're saying

0:54:11 > 0:54:13but he's a little bit more level-headed than I am.

0:54:15 > 0:54:19- That's top and bottom of it. - You're a typical Yorkshireman.

0:54:19 > 0:54:21- I'm not going to apologise. - You are very much

0:54:21 > 0:54:24a typical Yorkshireman, I work with them every day.

0:54:24 > 0:54:28- It's worn off him a lot. - Why don't you, for your son's sake, try and be a businessman.

0:54:28 > 0:54:31Right, OK, OK.

0:54:31 > 0:54:34It's for him essentially, cos he's going to own the company one day.

0:54:34 > 0:54:39Well, if he's going to inherit this business, I don't think you should be in a position to stand there

0:54:39 > 0:54:41and say you're not going to negotiate.

0:54:43 > 0:54:45Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

0:54:48 > 0:54:51It's a real shame, because I really like your product.

0:54:54 > 0:54:58I actually quite like you, Michael, cos I think I could handle you.

0:54:58 > 0:54:59Good.

0:55:04 > 0:55:07I mean, the 50 grand isn't in any danger, to be honest with you.

0:55:07 > 0:55:11It's... You know, you're never not going to get it back with interest.

0:55:11 > 0:55:15It's if you think it's good enough. I think this is going to make money.

0:55:18 > 0:55:21I certainly wouldn't be interested in 10%.

0:55:27 > 0:55:29Would you be interested in splitting it?

0:55:29 > 0:55:32It all depends on the percentages.

0:55:35 > 0:55:3750%.

0:55:41 > 0:55:42OK.

0:55:42 > 0:55:46So we both take 25% each.

0:55:51 > 0:55:53- JOE:- Can we go away and have a minute?

0:55:59 > 0:56:03It's a very rare occurrence for entrepreneurs to get a second chance

0:56:03 > 0:56:07in the Den, but that's what Michael and Joe now have.

0:56:07 > 0:56:11- JOE:- I don't know. I don't know... - MICHAEL: I think so...

0:56:18 > 0:56:23Um, we want to know the projection of what's going to come back

0:56:23 > 0:56:27for the 50%. If it was on about half a million pounds,

0:56:27 > 0:56:31if that sort of money's being bandied around, I'd sooner he had it.

0:56:33 > 0:56:35I can't project what we're going to make.

0:56:36 > 0:56:39But on the basis of £50,000 I will give it a go.

0:56:39 > 0:56:42But it's entirely up to you whether you want to accept.

0:56:43 > 0:56:45OK.

0:56:49 > 0:56:54Er, we had an upper limit of what we'd go to and how hard we'd worked.

0:56:54 > 0:56:58And to say we're wasting your time but we wouldn't get to 20.

0:57:00 > 0:57:03I've got to say... I've got to say I'm out.

0:57:04 > 0:57:07Um, I've got to say I'm out.

0:57:07 > 0:57:10Thank you for your time today. We'll just have to say how we go.

0:57:10 > 0:57:13We'll stand and fall on our own two feet for that. But thank you.

0:57:14 > 0:57:16- PETER:- Thank you, Joe. Thanks, Michael.

0:57:16 > 0:57:20A sorry end to some protracted negotiations.

0:57:20 > 0:57:22Sometimes in business deals just aren't meant to be.

0:57:22 > 0:57:25Michael and Joe leave with nothing.

0:57:38 > 0:57:40It's not that often in the Den

0:57:40 > 0:57:42we see an offer from the Dragons turned down.

0:57:42 > 0:57:44When we do you have to ask,

0:57:44 > 0:57:47is it A - because the entrepreneurs know exactly what they're doing,

0:57:47 > 0:57:50or B - because they're misguided?

0:57:50 > 0:57:52Well, in Michael and Joe's case today,

0:57:52 > 0:57:55it has to be one or the other.

0:57:55 > 0:57:57I'll leave you to decide which it is.

0:57:57 > 0:58:01Do you think you have what it takes to pitch to the Dragons?

0:58:01 > 0:58:04For information on how to apply, visit our website:

0:58:04 > 0:58:07bbc.co.uk/dragonsden

0:58:07 > 0:58:09Goodbye.

0:58:10 > 0:58:12Next week in the Den.

0:58:12 > 0:58:17I'm amazed how well you can present an absolutely ridiculous idea.

0:58:17 > 0:58:21But you can't! Cos if you could, you'd be making them day and night

0:58:21 > 0:58:24and smoking a cigar on a Caribbean beach.

0:58:24 > 0:58:28I'm asking you to compare a green apple with a green apple.

0:58:28 > 0:58:31Not an apple with a banana. Not an orange with a grape.

0:58:31 > 0:58:34I have no idea what you're talking about, Duncan.

0:58:35 > 0:58:37- THEO:- Not bad.- I can't say any more.

0:58:37 > 0:58:40I am out.

0:58:56 > 0:58:59Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd