0:00:26 > 0:00:28These are the Dragons,
0:00:28 > 0:00:32five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Over the coming weeks,
0:00:34 > 0:00:39they'll make or break the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Business is absolutely simple. People complicate business.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46I don't want you to do it because it's a bad idea.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48Well, I'm doing to give you a dilemma, then.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52£240,000?
0:00:52 > 0:00:54So, what's your answer, then?
0:01:00 > 0:01:02The multimillionaire investors have each
0:01:02 > 0:01:04built up their fortunes from scratch.
0:01:09 > 0:01:12Retail magnate, Theo Paphitis.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16Hotel and health club owner, Duncan Bannatyne.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Leisure industry expert, Deborah Meaden.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22Queen of logistics, Hilary Devey.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25And telecoms giant, Peter Jones.
0:01:26 > 0:01:30The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment
0:01:30 > 0:01:33and the cash ready to invest, but only in the right business.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs walk away
0:01:38 > 0:01:39with their money?
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Welcome back to Dragons' Den.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54It's a slightly different-looking Den tonight.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Unfortunately, we've had to send Hilary Devey home
0:01:56 > 0:01:58because she's not feeling too well,
0:01:58 > 0:02:01but the remaining multi-millionaire investors
0:02:01 > 0:02:06are ready and willing to back the very best ideas with their own cash.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09So will our latest batch of entrepreneurs find four Dragons
0:02:09 > 0:02:11any easier to win over?
0:02:11 > 0:02:12I somehow doubt it.
0:02:12 > 0:02:17Ambition is good, right? Well, our first entrepreneur has that.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Paul Turner wanted to transform his family business into a
0:02:20 > 0:02:25nationally-recognised brand, but to do so, he needs the Dragons' help.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Hello, Dragons. My name's Paul Turner,
0:02:59 > 0:03:03and I'm here today to ask for an £80,000 investment in return
0:03:03 > 0:03:08for 20% equity in my company, A Turner & Sons Sausage Ltd.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14We have created a range of award-winning premium sausages,
0:03:14 > 0:03:17developed from original family recipes
0:03:17 > 0:03:19passed down from my grandfather, Alfred Turner.
0:03:21 > 0:03:23Our awards have won...
0:03:26 > 0:03:28Our sausages have won awards at national and regional level,
0:03:28 > 0:03:30with our Best Of British sausage
0:03:30 > 0:03:32being named Britain's Best Banger 2011.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36And our pickled pig sausage...
0:03:38 > 0:03:41..being named Britain's Best Sausage 2012.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45Being a third-generation butcher from Aldershot, the ancestral
0:03:45 > 0:03:48home of the British Army, we have strong military connections.
0:03:48 > 0:03:52Last year, within one of the major retailers,
0:03:52 > 0:03:55we did a four-week promotion in aid of Help For Heroes,
0:03:55 > 0:03:59and we sold 74,000 units with no marketing support at all.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04I hope you can see my passion and enthusiasm,
0:04:04 > 0:04:09if not nervousness for my products and my business,
0:04:09 > 0:04:13and I'd now like to invite you to come and sample the sausages, please.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20The flustered sausage man Paul Turner finally finishes his pitch.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24Hailing from a long line of local butchers, he is now hoping to
0:04:24 > 0:04:28take his recipes nationwide, but he needs £80,000 to do so.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30Lovely. Mmm.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33On offer is a 20% stake in his business.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37Partial to a bit of sausage, Peter Jones looks intrigued.
0:04:39 > 0:04:40- Paul.- Hello.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42The sausages taste really good.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44Thank you very much.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46What have you really got, though, as a USP?
0:04:46 > 0:04:47I'm a traditional butcher.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50That's all I've done from 16 when I left school,
0:04:50 > 0:04:51working in the family business.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55I've been taught the traditional way that the sausages were made,
0:04:55 > 0:04:59and I just feel that I wanted to introduce a true butcher's brand.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02You think Alf Turner is the brand?
0:05:02 > 0:05:04Definitely, yeah.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06I'm very proud of my grandfather.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10He was the chief butcher instructor at the Royal Army Service Corps,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13and he was awarded the British Empire medal
0:05:13 > 0:05:16for services to the meat industry in the early '50s.
0:05:16 > 0:05:19His house became his business when he left the Army.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22Dad worked there, and both his brothers,
0:05:22 > 0:05:25and I'm now 50% business partner with my younger brother.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28Thing is, with the supermarkets, I'm trying to think of the pitch.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31You know, you're standing there in front of a bar at the supermarket,
0:05:31 > 0:05:34and you're going to say, "Well, I'm really proud of my granddad."
0:05:34 > 0:05:37Two of these sausages have been voted the best in Britain.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42I do think we are unique with having the true butcher's heritage.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46Passionate responses, perhaps,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49but it takes more than that to get investment from these Dragons.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52Theo Paphitis is keen to find out more.
0:05:55 > 0:05:58Paul. So, let me get this right. You've got a shop in Aldershot.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00A standard butcher's shop in Aldershot.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03That's not what you're offering us an opportunity in.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06No, it's the sausage company, A Turner & Sons Sausage Ltd.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10Has A Turner & Sons Sausage Ltd traded yet?
0:06:10 > 0:06:14We have. In the accounts filed in January of this year,
0:06:14 > 0:06:20we had a turnover of £12,000, which showed a net loss of £1,300.
0:06:22 > 0:06:28I did get excited when you said you sold 74,000.
0:06:28 > 0:06:30Is that turnover in here?
0:06:30 > 0:06:35Yes. I had to completely reduce my actual take to convince the outlet
0:06:35 > 0:06:36to actually take me nationally.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38Who was it?
0:06:38 > 0:06:39It was Tesco.
0:06:39 > 0:06:40How many stores?
0:06:40 > 0:06:42570.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44570 supermarkets.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46Yeah.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48And once that was over, they said, "Thank you very much,
0:06:48 > 0:06:50"Don't darken our doorstep again?"
0:06:50 > 0:06:54No, no. They require marketing budgets for you to put into place
0:06:54 > 0:06:57promotional offers, and I just didn't have the capacity to
0:06:57 > 0:07:01cover a national listing with the marketing fees.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03- And because you couldn't do that... - Didn't have the money.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06..they said, "Well, in that case, we can't list you."
0:07:06 > 0:07:09"Talk to us, we'll follow it in the future." Yeah.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14Meagre margins from the major multiples.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16It's a common stumbling block in the Den.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20Can Deborah Meaden find any money-making potential?
0:07:21 > 0:07:23- Paul.- Yep.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Can I understand the financial mechanics of this?
0:07:26 > 0:07:28What's the retail price?
0:07:28 > 0:07:30Retail price we're setting at the moment is £2.79.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32I've found a company down in Newton Abbot.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36I license them to produce my recipes.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39And they pay you how much?
0:07:39 > 0:07:42I have a license fee of 20p per unit.
0:07:42 > 0:07:44Plus I donate to Help For Heroes.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47So you get a straight 20p.
0:07:47 > 0:07:4820p.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50Whatever happens to the retail?
0:07:50 > 0:07:53If it goes on to promotion, then my revenue drops.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56We've been down to 12 and a half pence.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00Paul, is it really viable?
0:08:00 > 0:08:03I mean, the minute you go into a supermarket,
0:08:03 > 0:08:06you lose so much of your USP.
0:08:06 > 0:08:07And you just become a story.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10Do you know how many brands there are out there
0:08:10 > 0:08:12that claim all sorts of heritage?
0:08:12 > 0:08:13Yeah.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15It's just marketing.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19You then have to get your brand above the noise.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23To get a brand above all the noise that goes on is expensive.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29When you're only making 20p at best,
0:08:29 > 0:08:32it's a very, very, very hard call.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34I fully understand.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37I just can't see it.
0:08:37 > 0:08:38OK.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40So I'm afraid I'm out.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46A dejected-looking Paul loses his first Dragon.
0:08:47 > 0:08:50Can Duncan Bannatyne offer him any hope?
0:08:52 > 0:08:55Paul, you say the general public buy them because there's
0:08:55 > 0:08:59a tradition of family butchery going back many, many years.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01It doesn't really cut it for the public, because the tradition
0:09:01 > 0:09:03isn't what's going to sell sausages.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07It's whether or not people are buying the best sausage, with good meat.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09That's what they want to know,
0:09:09 > 0:09:12and I think I'm a little bit confused about the brand.
0:09:12 > 0:09:13- OK.- These two here, for example,
0:09:13 > 0:09:15because this one's called Pickled Pig.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19- Yeah.- And this one's called Hair Of The Hog.
0:09:19 > 0:09:20Yeah.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23- And they're both pork and ale sausages.- OK.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26Now, as I'm doing my shopping, I wouldn't want to go further
0:09:26 > 0:09:29and dissect it, and know what the differences,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31- but these two are different.- Yeah.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35So I think you're confusing the issue a little bit
0:09:35 > 0:09:36by putting these names on them.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38Your sausages are excellent,
0:09:38 > 0:09:41- and I wish there was more butchers like you.- Thank you very much.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44But I can't invest, and so I've got to say I'm out.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47OK, thank you. Thank you for your time.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Erm, I completely disagree with Duncan over
0:09:51 > 0:09:54- the irrelevance of your heritage. - Yeah.
0:09:54 > 0:09:55Because, actually,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58I think that when people are buying for the first time, they have to
0:09:58 > 0:10:03trust you, and actually provenance does count at the premium end.
0:10:03 > 0:10:04Yes.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Because it gives those customers a reason to believe
0:10:07 > 0:10:10what you're saying. That's important.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15However, I do completely agree with Duncan with the various ale
0:10:15 > 0:10:19sausages, because, to be honest, people don't read that much.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22You need an ale sausage, you need a standard sausage,
0:10:22 > 0:10:24an ale sausage, a Christmas sausage, whatever.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27I completely agree with that.
0:10:27 > 0:10:29I fully agree with that.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33So I'm not convinced you're going to dominate the supermarket space,
0:10:33 > 0:10:35which is exactly what you want us for.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39I'm afraid I won't be investing, Paul. So, I'm out.
0:10:39 > 0:10:40OK, thank you.
0:10:40 > 0:10:44Paul, the reality is you're asking for £80,000.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47You're not asking for a £10,000 investment here.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50- I fully understand. - And it doesn't make any money.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54I wouldn't be here if I didn't believe in my brand
0:10:54 > 0:10:58and what I think I can sell, and just from thinking outside the box,
0:10:58 > 0:11:00the different ideas I can bring.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05I want to ask a couple of questions, actually, about your current business.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07What sort of turnover do you do in the shop?
0:11:07 > 0:11:11Last year we turned over 750,000.
0:11:11 > 0:11:12Wow.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15That showed a net profit of 50,000.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18And you take a salary from that?
0:11:18 > 0:11:19I do take a salary, yeah.
0:11:19 > 0:11:20And your brother as well?
0:11:20 > 0:11:22My brother as well, yeah.
0:11:24 > 0:11:30To make this work, would you look at an investment in Alf Turner & Sons?
0:11:30 > 0:11:32I would...
0:11:33 > 0:11:35I would be very...
0:11:36 > 0:11:38I see...
0:11:38 > 0:11:39What you can bring to me
0:11:39 > 0:11:45is scalability on a sausage company, not a butcher's shop.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48Yeah. All I'm doing is looking, if I was to invest,
0:11:48 > 0:11:49I'm de-risking my investment.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51I fully appreciate that.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55At the moment, investing £80,000 in a new business is too high-risk.
0:12:00 > 0:12:05I would much prefer to do the sausage company.
0:12:07 > 0:12:08I'm sorry.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12Well, I'm going to give you a dilemma, then.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18And I'm going to offer you the full £80,000...
0:12:19 > 0:12:22..but I want an equal share
0:12:22 > 0:12:24with your brother in the butcher business.
0:12:26 > 0:12:27At the top co.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32So I want 33 and a third percent of your and your brother's business.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35OK.
0:12:35 > 0:12:40And we will use the £80,000 that I invest to go and make this product.
0:12:52 > 0:12:55If I can achieve the sales that I think I can achieve,
0:12:55 > 0:13:00can we then hand back my butcher's shop business?
0:13:03 > 0:13:05How quickly could I get the 80,000 back?
0:13:05 > 0:13:07I think, with your help...
0:13:07 > 0:13:0812 months? Two years?
0:13:08 > 0:13:09I think before 12 months.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15I don't see why we can't. I think we can sell 75,000 a week.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18So, what you're saying is I invest £80,000.
0:13:18 > 0:13:19Yeah.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23If, within 12 months, my £80,000, through profits,
0:13:23 > 0:13:26has been returned, I hand back 33 and a third percent
0:13:26 > 0:13:29of your main business back to you and your brother,
0:13:29 > 0:13:32and I retain 33 and a third percent in the sausage business.
0:13:32 > 0:13:36So you would have no other hold over the butcher's shop?
0:13:41 > 0:13:42So, what's your answer, Paul?
0:13:46 > 0:13:48I'd very much like to accept your offer.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51- He's in the sausage business! - I'm in the sausage business!
0:13:51 > 0:13:53It may not have gone the way Paul imagined...
0:13:53 > 0:13:54- Well done. - Thank you very much indeed.
0:13:54 > 0:13:59..but at least he gets the cash and the investor he badly needed.
0:13:59 > 0:14:00These Dragons can be a canny lot.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02It's a good deal, Peter. For both of you.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08I'm really pleased I've done it, I really am.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12To my grandfather, that means a real lot to me.
0:14:12 > 0:14:14It's quite an emotional thing.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18I'm just thrilled to bits, and hopefully he's pleased, too.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28Many entrepreneurs who enter the Den have a particular
0:14:28 > 0:14:31Dragon in mind as the perfect fit for their business idea.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36Sadly for inventor Ken Boyd, his hopes were pinned on Hilary Devey.
0:14:36 > 0:14:37Hello, Dragons!
0:14:37 > 0:14:39Now, all the Dragons have a wide investment portfolio,
0:14:39 > 0:14:43so what would they make of Ken's revolutionary wheel-cleaning device?
0:14:43 > 0:14:48What we do is we take the kit up to the wheel. That's nicely connected.
0:14:49 > 0:14:50A few pumps of the water.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56First, you're going to clean your wheel with your fluid,
0:14:56 > 0:14:59and you can commence your cleaning.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03You don't need gloves, you don't need eye goggles or anything else,
0:15:03 > 0:15:07and you will have better wheels than you currently have.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14I'm sorry. I'm just laughing because it just looks very complicated.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16I assure you, it's not.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Despite a clear demonstration,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23the product's practicality remained a sticking point for the Dragons.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25I guess I'm just trying to understand
0:15:25 > 0:15:27what problem you think this is solving.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30The problem it's solving is it's cleaning your wheels properly,
0:15:30 > 0:15:31efficiently and quickly.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33It reminds me of a puppet show.
0:15:35 > 0:15:37Where you put your hands and you control the things,
0:15:37 > 0:15:39but you never quite control them perfectly.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42Perhaps I didn't do a very good demonstration, Peter.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44It has been used, and it is fit for purpose.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46It does the job it's designed to do.
0:15:46 > 0:15:51Ken, there's two very distinct ways in which wheels are cleaned.
0:15:51 > 0:15:57One is with a brush, the second one is using a pressure washer.
0:15:57 > 0:15:59Does yours do something miraculous?
0:15:59 > 0:16:00Yes, it cleans wheels.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02Properly.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Top marks for a steadfast defence,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08but can didn't score so highly when it came to investable potential.
0:16:08 > 0:16:12Theo said there was two ways to wash your wheels.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14I think there's a third, and I think it's the easiest one.
0:16:14 > 0:16:15It's called a car wash.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18The problem with this is it's an over-engineered solution
0:16:18 > 0:16:21to a problem that certainly doesn't exist in a big way,
0:16:21 > 0:16:24so I'm going to have to say those words, I'm out.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27- That's a shame.- Good luck, Ken. - Thank you very much.
0:16:30 > 0:16:34Normally, I'd be sceptical of a business idea dreamed up in a pub,
0:16:34 > 0:16:36but when it involves a doctor,
0:16:36 > 0:16:39a nurse and a paramedic, well, I'd take it more seriously,
0:16:39 > 0:16:42and that is the case with our next entrepreneurs,
0:16:42 > 0:16:45so have they come up with an investable business proposition?
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Hello, my name is Dr Caroline Howard.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03We're here for a £50,000 investment in return for a 10% share
0:17:03 > 0:17:04in our company.
0:17:04 > 0:17:08I'd now like to introduce Chris Kurt Gabel and Lee Taylor.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11The business was founded by three healthcare professionals
0:17:11 > 0:17:14who are active in the healthcare industry. Paramedic, doctor and nurse.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17We saw a gap in the provision for this type of training.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20First aid and CPR training is one of the most requested
0:17:20 > 0:17:23training sessions in UK business today.
0:17:23 > 0:17:27If one of the Dragons were to have a medical emergency right now,
0:17:27 > 0:17:28would you know what to do?
0:17:33 > 0:17:36Oh, my God. They don't do very well. Hello, can you hear me?
0:17:36 > 0:17:38Can you open your eyes? Caroline, hold on a second.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41I think they've had a cardiac arrest. They're not breathing, or responding.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43Can you call an ambulance?
0:17:43 > 0:17:46999. Ambulance, please. Cardiac arrest in the Dragons' Den.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51OK, I'll get the defib out. Chris, keep doing the CPR.
0:17:51 > 0:17:52DEFIBRILATOR BEEPS
0:17:56 > 0:17:58Mind your second hand.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01'Analysing heart rhythm.'
0:18:01 > 0:18:02Stop CPR.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04'Do not touch the patient.'
0:18:04 > 0:18:05'Shock advised.'
0:18:05 > 0:18:06Are you clear?
0:18:06 > 0:18:09'Charging. Deliver shock now.'
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Shock delivered. Let's do some CPR.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17After the demonstration, we'd revisit the same scenario,
0:18:17 > 0:18:20talk about what we do and why we do it before the candidates have
0:18:20 > 0:18:23a chance to practice exactly the same thing.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25Since the business was founded in 2006,
0:18:25 > 0:18:29we've shown steady growth between years one to four, and are predicting 8.2% growth
0:18:29 > 0:18:32in the last financial year just gone.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Thank you for listening to us,
0:18:34 > 0:18:37and we are now happy for any questions which you may have.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44Emergency in the Den, but thankfully, medical professionals
0:18:44 > 0:18:47Chris Kurt Gabel, Dr Caroline Howard and Lee Taylor are on hand.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52They need a £50,000 investment in their London-based first aid
0:18:52 > 0:18:54training business in return for a 10% share.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59Peter Jones is first to question the three friends.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Firstly, very good demonstration.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06You didn't actually tell us what the company made, so what have you done
0:19:06 > 0:19:07in the last 12 months?
0:19:07 > 0:19:11The last accounts that we have, we had a turnover of £250,000.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15And what was the net profit?
0:19:15 > 0:19:17The net profit was £112,000.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20So is it just three of you working in the business at the moment?
0:19:20 > 0:19:24Two people work full-time, Chris and somebody else,
0:19:24 > 0:19:28and we've got two other part-timers who work two days a week.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32We have a lot of the resources already within the business
0:19:32 > 0:19:34in terms of an existing base of people to deliver training.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36What we need to do is to get the bookings
0:19:36 > 0:19:39and the actual need for those people and get them out there.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42OK. Caroline and Lee, what do you bring to the party, then,
0:19:42 > 0:19:44in terms of the business?
0:19:44 > 0:19:47I'm a full-time A&E consultant in an NHS Trust.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50We're quite unique in that we are actually the only provider
0:19:50 > 0:19:53of these kind of services that has a medical director,
0:19:53 > 0:19:54so qualified as a doctor.
0:19:54 > 0:19:55OK, and Lee?
0:19:55 > 0:19:59I'm a paramedic by trade, and a resus officer, so...
0:19:59 > 0:20:02OK, so Chris, then, obviously owns most of the company.
0:20:02 > 0:20:03Is that right, Chris?
0:20:03 > 0:20:05The shareholding is divided between us.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08I own 45%, Lee owns 45% and Caroline owns 10%.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10OK.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12Lee was employed up until April.
0:20:12 > 0:20:16The person that's replaced him is also a paramedic, so what we've kept
0:20:16 > 0:20:22is that broad spectrum of training, in terms of our backgrounds.
0:20:22 > 0:20:27So why did Lee move away from the business?
0:20:27 > 0:20:29It's purely a personal thing.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33I've moved to another part of the country, and it wouldn't be
0:20:33 > 0:20:38practical for me, within that location, to work on a daily basis.
0:20:42 > 0:20:47Confusion, not clarity, from the trio. It's a shaky start.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49Can Theo Paphitis get to the bottom
0:20:49 > 0:20:51of this complex business arrangement?
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Lee, what part of the world are you moving to?
0:20:56 > 0:20:59To the south coast of the UK.
0:20:59 > 0:21:00And that, in itself,
0:21:00 > 0:21:03has made it impossible for you to work in the business?
0:21:03 > 0:21:06Most of the work that we're going to is in London
0:21:06 > 0:21:08and the Home Counties, or up the M1 corridor.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13So the business that you helped start up, which is doing well,
0:21:13 > 0:21:17and you own 45% of, and you get your livelihood from,
0:21:17 > 0:21:20but you're having a new life.
0:21:20 > 0:21:21Yeah, absolutely right.
0:21:21 > 0:21:24Are you going to retain your shareholding?
0:21:24 > 0:21:25Yeah. Oh, yeah.
0:21:25 > 0:21:29How, in that case, are you going to carry on helping the business?
0:21:29 > 0:21:31However they want me to.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36I think what Lee's saying is he's changed his mindset,
0:21:36 > 0:21:39and he will still come back and help cover the ad hoc training
0:21:39 > 0:21:41sessions where we have too much demand, and we do have.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45I don't think I'll be letting the business down.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48It's important for me that the business does well, obviously,
0:21:48 > 0:21:51as a shareholder, and I will still be a part of it.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55The Dragons seem sidetracked,
0:21:55 > 0:21:58with questions about the company structure.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00Can Deborah Meaden make any headway?
0:22:00 > 0:22:04I want to get back to the business model. What are your projections?
0:22:04 > 0:22:09This year we're aiming to grow our revenues by at least 10%.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13We're hoping to make £350,000, if we're really smart about it,
0:22:13 > 0:22:17but keep our profit margin at around 55%,
0:22:17 > 0:22:21so that's come to be about 170,000, there or thereabouts.
0:22:21 > 0:22:24So, what would your salary be, then?
0:22:24 > 0:22:25£30,000.
0:22:25 > 0:22:26And how much for you?
0:22:26 > 0:22:29Lee no longer is getting a salary, so we've employed somebody
0:22:29 > 0:22:32on a salary in order to cover Lee's training.
0:22:32 > 0:22:34You've added £30,000 worth of salary for you.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37£30,000 worth of salary for Lee's training.
0:22:37 > 0:22:42So we're now down to 110, and then what is your expectations,
0:22:42 > 0:22:45in terms of dividend? What are you expecting, Lee?
0:22:45 > 0:22:48I think my dividends will drop, to begin with,
0:22:48 > 0:22:50and I'm quite happy for that to happen.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53Hopefully it won't happen, but, yeah.
0:22:53 > 0:22:56- And are all three of you saying exactly the same thing?- Absolutely.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59Since he left the company, he's signed exactly the same waiver
0:22:59 > 0:23:00that I signed right back in the beginning.
0:23:00 > 0:23:03- So now you're not taking dividends? - Correct.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05- And you are still taking dividends? - At the moment.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10- It's just, it's muddled.- OK.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13And it's worrying for an investor.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17You don't just invest in a business, you invest in a structure
0:23:17 > 0:23:20of a business, the people, and you've got to understand the way
0:23:20 > 0:23:23they're thinking, so I'm afraid I won't be investing in you.
0:23:23 > 0:23:25- I'm out.- Thank you, Deborah.
0:23:27 > 0:23:31Confusion reigns as a frustrated Deborah Meaden refuses to do
0:23:31 > 0:23:33business with Chris, Caroline and Lee.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36And Peter Jones is not looking impressed either.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42I don't get the whole Lee situation at all,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45and why he would even think that he could retain 45% of the business
0:23:45 > 0:23:47when he's got nothing to do with it any more.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50I can't see how this could actually work
0:23:50 > 0:23:51that wouldn't lead to frustration.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55So I would like to declare myself out.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57Thank you, Peter.
0:23:58 > 0:24:03I've been trying to formulate an offer,
0:24:03 > 0:24:09and I thought I'd formulated an offer, until something went wrong.
0:24:11 > 0:24:13The structure doesn't work.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20Maybe that's partly why we've come to the Dragons.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22Maybe there's a bit of self-realisation,
0:24:22 > 0:24:24and what you bring to the table is the knowledge of what business
0:24:24 > 0:24:27structures and models work well.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30We are healthcare professionals first and business people second.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32Oh, please, don't do yourselves down.
0:24:32 > 0:24:36Let me just explain something to you. Business is absolutely simple.
0:24:36 > 0:24:40People complicate business. Business is about common sense.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43And I'm certainly not classing you
0:24:43 > 0:24:48as anything other than people who know what they're doing.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52But the fact that you're going, and still going to be a shareholder,
0:24:52 > 0:24:54and you haven't quite worked out between yourselves
0:24:54 > 0:24:58the practical issues that that's going to create...
0:25:01 > 0:25:03..I think makes it very hard for me to make an offer.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07So because of that, I'm out.
0:25:09 > 0:25:12Two more damning verdicts, and so far,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14the Dragons are in complete agreement.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18But has Duncan Bannatyne seen something that his rivals have not?
0:25:22 > 0:25:26I'm not worried about the dividend thing. I think that can be resolved.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30I'm going to ask you something now which is something
0:25:30 > 0:25:32that's concerning me more.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36What percentage of the £350,000
0:25:36 > 0:25:41will come from NHS and private hospitals?
0:25:41 > 0:25:47We've got around a 40% NHS client base,
0:25:47 > 0:25:50we've got about 25% private hospitals.
0:25:50 > 0:25:53I do like the figures, and I do like the numbers,
0:25:53 > 0:25:57but I am concerned that you have one customer base,
0:25:57 > 0:26:00and if they stop, you're finished.
0:26:00 > 0:26:01It's a huge risk.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05The safety margin, if you like, that we have,
0:26:05 > 0:26:08is that a lot of what we provide is mandatory training.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11That's decided by government regulatory bodies.
0:26:11 > 0:26:14With some of our clients, we have contractual arrangements,
0:26:14 > 0:26:17so there's some guaranteed revenue streams.
0:26:17 > 0:26:18- From the NHS clients?- Yes.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21So we've just signed a two-year contract with one NHS client,
0:26:21 > 0:26:24and we've just signed a three-year contract with another NHS client.
0:26:35 > 0:26:36I'm going to make you an offer.
0:26:38 > 0:26:40I'm going to offer you all the money...
0:26:41 > 0:26:44..but I'm not going to be in a business where I own 10%.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46This is complicated.
0:26:49 > 0:26:53So I want 32% of the company.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59Can we have, erm..?
0:26:59 > 0:27:01Yeah.
0:27:07 > 0:27:11I think you need to turn round and say, "We don't want to give you 30%."
0:27:11 > 0:27:13Do you want to make a counter offer?
0:27:14 > 0:27:16I think that's where it needs to be.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22OK.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27The verdict is that we don't want to give up 32% of the company.
0:27:27 > 0:27:29We only want to give up ten.
0:27:30 > 0:27:31Oh.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36OK, then. That means I'm out. Thank you.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39- Thank you very much. - Thank you for your time.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41An unusual end to an unusual pitch.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46Chris, Caroline, and Lee may have received a financial lifeline,
0:27:46 > 0:27:51but the price-tag was just too high. They leave with nothing.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57Entrepreneurs asking the Dragons to help with a demonstration
0:27:57 > 0:28:00have to be supremely confident in their product,
0:28:00 > 0:28:02or risk calamity in the Den.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06Which was to be for Brian Smith from Brighton,
0:28:06 > 0:28:08who'd brought along his twist on an ancient Japanese art form?
0:28:08 > 0:28:13Popagami brings origami into the 21st century, and I'd like to
0:28:13 > 0:28:17present you with some very special sheets I've designed for you.
0:28:17 > 0:28:18Go for it.
0:28:23 > 0:28:24Not good so far!
0:28:26 > 0:28:29I don't know why you're laughing at mine, Theo!
0:28:29 > 0:28:30Don't laugh at me!
0:28:30 > 0:28:34Fortunately for Brian, it was the Dragons' competitive streak
0:28:34 > 0:28:37that took over, as they were determined to outdo their rivals.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40- That corner or that corner? Does it matter?- It doesn't matter, no.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42Just concentrate, Deborah, for goodness sake!
0:28:42 > 0:28:44I've gone all wrong.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48Just drop out. There's Peter and I in this race now.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51Here's one for Hilary.
0:28:51 > 0:28:52Oh, baby!
0:28:52 > 0:28:54Blow, harder. That's it!
0:28:54 > 0:28:57Congratulations, because that's the first time any Dragon's
0:28:57 > 0:29:00been able to take instruction.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02So, disaster averted for now.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05But then the business interrogation began.
0:29:05 > 0:29:06I enjoyed doing it,
0:29:06 > 0:29:09but how do you monetise it and make it a real business?
0:29:09 > 0:29:13Well, part of the financial side of this is the app.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15I think it has the potential for a global market,
0:29:15 > 0:29:18if it sells one million, two million, three million.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20Have you ever run a business before, Brian?
0:29:20 > 0:29:21No.
0:29:21 > 0:29:25In the end, it was a case of kind words,
0:29:25 > 0:29:27but no cash for the likeable entrepreneur.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29How much money have you put into Poppets Ltd?
0:29:29 > 0:29:32At least 40,000.
0:29:32 > 0:29:34That's painful.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37It's not scalable, but I could see a lot of applications for it,
0:29:37 > 0:29:40not least of which was with some of the wildlife charities.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42Good luck to you, but I can't see how
0:29:42 > 0:29:45I could make money out of it, so I'm going to say I'm out.
0:29:45 > 0:29:46Thank you.
0:29:47 > 0:29:51The four multimillionaires may be a Dragon down,
0:29:51 > 0:29:54but they have already invested in one up-and-coming business tonight.
0:29:54 > 0:29:56I'd like to accept your offer.
0:29:56 > 0:29:57I'm in the sausage business!
0:29:57 > 0:30:01To find out why Peter Jones decided to enter the sausage business,
0:30:01 > 0:30:03press the red button at the end of the programme.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09Music, film and theatre are all sectors in which Britain's
0:30:09 > 0:30:10a world leader,
0:30:10 > 0:30:14but it still takes quite a bit of courage to invest in the arts.
0:30:14 > 0:30:17Georgie King and her father Simon from Hertfordshire
0:30:17 > 0:30:20think they are worth a gamble.
0:30:46 > 0:30:50VOICEOVER: 'There is somewhere a hidden door to a world
0:30:50 > 0:30:51'you have never seen before.
0:30:51 > 0:30:57'A world unleashed when the moon is pale, a world where nothing
0:30:57 > 0:31:01'but rhythm prevails, where DrumChasers battle to no avail.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05'This, my friends, is the Noiseland tale.'
0:31:33 > 0:31:34Great. Thank you.
0:31:34 > 0:31:35Thank you, guys.
0:31:35 > 0:31:37Thank you.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47Hello. My name's Georgie, and this is my dad, Simon.
0:31:47 > 0:31:49We are the producers of DrumChasers.
0:31:49 > 0:31:53DrumChasers is a musical without words. A family show, written by
0:31:53 > 0:31:58Ethan Lewis Maltby, an up-and-coming composer,
0:31:58 > 0:32:00and we have some magical narration by Stephen Fry.
0:32:00 > 0:32:05We're asking for £60,000 in exchange for 20% of the company.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08We're going to use this to drive our marketing.
0:32:09 > 0:32:14To date, we have completed two national tours, supporting workshops
0:32:14 > 0:32:18and corporate events, including Cineworld and Telenet.
0:32:18 > 0:32:22What we're asking for is support to have a profitable tour in bigger
0:32:22 > 0:32:26theatres, and then Georgie's dream is the show will go into the West End.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28Thank you.
0:32:31 > 0:32:35Quite a show from Hertfordshire-based Simon and Georgie King
0:32:35 > 0:32:36and their troupe of drummers.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39The father and daughter team need £60,000 to turn their vibrant
0:32:39 > 0:32:42percussion show into a box-office hit.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46Duncan Bannatyne is first to interrogate the pair.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49So, this is a play?
0:32:51 > 0:32:54Give us a brief overview of what the story is.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56It's a sort of West Side Story-type thing.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59It's two sides, the battle against each other.
0:32:59 > 0:33:01There's a love interest in the middle.
0:33:01 > 0:33:03How many productions have you put on?
0:33:03 > 0:33:05We've put on 30.
0:33:05 > 0:33:0730 in two tours?
0:33:07 > 0:33:08Yes.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11So you should have enough money to do a third tour
0:33:11 > 0:33:12without raising any more money?
0:33:12 > 0:33:15So why are you here? Has it gone bad?
0:33:15 > 0:33:18It hasn't gone bad.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20Throughout the two tours we've made our money back,
0:33:20 > 0:33:23so we've broken even as it stands now.
0:33:23 > 0:33:25We think the reason why it didn't work so well was
0:33:25 > 0:33:28because we didn't have enough backing in the marketing department.
0:33:28 > 0:33:30I think, to get it noticed,
0:33:30 > 0:33:33to get people really understanding this, you've got to spend money
0:33:33 > 0:33:38and be in local newspapers, and we've got to do a stronger job online.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41And we also need someone backing it.
0:33:41 > 0:33:43I think we've seen some things done in the theatre badly,
0:33:43 > 0:33:46and think this is a good opportunity to do it really well.
0:33:48 > 0:33:52Confident responses from Simon and Georgie.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55Theo Paphitis looks intrigued by this sure-footed duo.
0:33:57 > 0:34:01I often say that I invest in people first and the project secondly.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03So tell us about what you've done.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06- What I've done?- Yes.
0:34:06 > 0:34:10I was a professional dancer for five years, going around the UK,
0:34:10 > 0:34:11and I was a musician.
0:34:11 > 0:34:17I have every skill within the actual theatre, setting up the tour.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19I've learned a lot of things on the way.
0:34:19 > 0:34:23I'm a quick learner, but I took it all on myself.
0:34:23 > 0:34:26OK. What part do you play in this?
0:34:26 > 0:34:30What I've tried to do in supporting Georgie with this is make sure
0:34:30 > 0:34:33that we're ready, step-by-step.
0:34:33 > 0:34:38Not jumping immediately, saying we're ready for the West End. Let's learn how to make a profit.
0:34:38 > 0:34:40- What's your expertise? - I come from a retail background.
0:34:40 > 0:34:42- You're a shopkeeper?- Yes.
0:34:42 > 0:34:46I've led some of the Tesco businesses internationally,
0:34:46 > 0:34:47and I'm currently the MD at Wickes.
0:34:49 > 0:34:51So, a father and daughter company.
0:34:51 > 0:34:52Yes.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55- What, 50-50?- Yes.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58I know she's really young to do it, but I think she's got the ability,
0:34:58 > 0:35:00and she's getting better and better at it.
0:35:02 > 0:35:03Charm and credibility.
0:35:03 > 0:35:08The Dragons look impressed, but is this a money-making opportunity?
0:35:08 > 0:35:10Deborah Meaden wants to know.
0:35:12 > 0:35:16Talk me through the financial structure.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19So, what are you going to sell the tickets for, and what
0:35:19 > 0:35:23are the costs that come out against that to get down to the net profit?
0:35:23 > 0:35:271,000 seater, on average, £20 a ticket,
0:35:27 > 0:35:32so we're hoping to make £20,000 per show.
0:35:32 > 0:35:34OK, so let's start at the top. £20,000 revenue.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37It costs us £5,000 per show.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39That's for..?
0:35:39 > 0:35:42That's for the cast, for the crew.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44What do the venues take?
0:35:44 > 0:35:47It's a split. 20/80, usually.
0:35:47 > 0:35:48So it'll be £4,000.
0:35:48 > 0:35:52And then we would hope to have £3,000 per night for the marketing.
0:35:52 > 0:35:53Any other costs?
0:35:53 > 0:35:56We haven't included any wages for Georgie,
0:35:56 > 0:35:59and any royalties back for Ethan.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03By the way, is your £20,000 including VAT?
0:36:03 > 0:36:04Yes.
0:36:04 > 0:36:09So, £16,000, net of VAT?
0:36:09 > 0:36:11It's not quite that.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13No, ish, but I'm just trying to get to the mechanics, really.
0:36:13 > 0:36:17So, were you absolutely sell out, your net profit on each show,
0:36:17 > 0:36:19then, is...
0:36:21 > 0:36:22..3K.
0:36:24 > 0:36:30If I only got 20% of £3,000, per venue,
0:36:30 > 0:36:31I'd get £600.
0:36:33 > 0:36:36That doesn't sound very good risk, to me.
0:36:36 > 0:36:40What we are offering is that you get 20% of the gross sales.
0:36:40 > 0:36:43Yeah, but you can't give me 20% of the gross sales.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46You haven't got the profit in it.
0:36:46 > 0:36:5120,000 including VAT is 16,667 after VAT.
0:36:51 > 0:36:52Yes.
0:36:52 > 0:36:54£16,667.
0:36:54 > 0:36:58Yes. And the £4,000 we pay to the theatre you'd have to take the VAT
0:36:58 > 0:37:02back out of it, so we're not quite...
0:37:02 > 0:37:06- We're arguing over a few hundred pounds here, is the bottom line. - Yes, we are.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09That's on the basis that you have a sell-out.
0:37:11 > 0:37:14If you don't have sell-out, it's costing me money.
0:37:16 > 0:37:19It's quite a fine line, when I'm risking £60,000.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23I can't see how I can win here.
0:37:26 > 0:37:30So, I'm not going to invest on this occasion. I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:37:33 > 0:37:35The financial proposition unravels.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38It's a first setback for Georgie and her dad.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41Will Duncan Bannatyne be more forgiving?
0:37:42 > 0:37:46So, what was your capacity where you played before on your two tours?
0:37:46 > 0:37:51- The best would have been... - We got 1,000 in Canterbury.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54And you had Cambridge as well with over 1,000,
0:37:54 > 0:37:56so we've experienced over 1,000...
0:37:56 > 0:37:58In the right areas.
0:37:58 > 0:38:02Sorry, Dad. I just wanted to mention that sometimes theatres do give
0:38:02 > 0:38:04a guarantee, so if you've got more credibility,
0:38:04 > 0:38:07which maybe you would be able to give us,
0:38:07 > 0:38:10they might be able to say "This is what we'll pay you," and that's it.
0:38:10 > 0:38:13You'll know exactly what's coming in, and it might be above...
0:38:13 > 0:38:15OK. I can see all the skills,
0:38:15 > 0:38:17and I can see the greatness of the production.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19What I can't see is the business and the profit.
0:38:20 > 0:38:24The margin's too small. If you had 90% of the receipts,
0:38:24 > 0:38:25you would make a loss on the evening.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28It's as simple as that. You would make a loss.
0:38:28 > 0:38:29Yes, you do.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31And to sell 100% is very, very difficult.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33I can't invest, and so for that reason, I'm out.
0:38:36 > 0:38:41Guys, this is a notoriously difficult area to make business,
0:38:41 > 0:38:44and I have to tell you, if I were you,
0:38:44 > 0:38:49I would be looking for somebody who is in that sphere already,
0:38:49 > 0:38:52and promoting in that sphere already, because I think
0:38:52 > 0:38:58you're going to need somebody really working with you on that marketing.
0:38:58 > 0:39:03- I don't think I would give you the time you need.- OK. - So I'm out.- Thank you.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06Thank you for the feedback. Really helpful.
0:39:09 > 0:39:12Two more Dragons walk away from the deal.
0:39:12 > 0:39:14Now Georgie's dreams of taking on the West End
0:39:14 > 0:39:17rest solely with Theo Paphitis.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23I can't see where, if I gave you the money,
0:39:23 > 0:39:25how am I going to get anything back?
0:39:26 > 0:39:30We've also got the corporate events and workshops we'd like to include,
0:39:30 > 0:39:33which you would obviously be part of.
0:39:33 > 0:39:36We've actually taken a similar show to this to the FA Cup final,
0:39:36 > 0:39:38which went down really well.
0:39:38 > 0:39:41Explain what happens in the corporate events.
0:39:41 > 0:39:47We charge around £5,000 for a corporate event within the UK.
0:39:47 > 0:39:49So how many have you done?
0:39:49 > 0:39:50We've done four, to date.
0:39:51 > 0:39:55It's such a tough, tough world.
0:39:55 > 0:39:57Yes, but we are hard workers.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01Let me tell you where I am.
0:40:01 > 0:40:03You do tick the boxes as the sort of people that you want to
0:40:03 > 0:40:09be in business with and invest in, but it is so tight,
0:40:09 > 0:40:13and when I look at that, it's not a business investment,
0:40:13 > 0:40:16so I'm afraid, for me, it doesn't work out. I'm out.
0:40:16 > 0:40:17Thank you for the feedback.
0:40:20 > 0:40:22The Dragons may say it's all about the entrepreneurs,
0:40:22 > 0:40:25but there needs to be a money-making business model attached.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28Simon and Georgie leave with nothing.
0:40:28 > 0:40:30What a shame.
0:40:35 > 0:40:39Other entrepreneurs who tried and failed in the Den
0:40:39 > 0:40:42included 29-year-old Lindsay Porter from Burton-on-Trent, who
0:40:42 > 0:40:45thought she'd spotted a glamorous trend that she could capitalise on.
0:40:45 > 0:40:49Proms originated in America, but they are about to take Britain by storm.
0:40:49 > 0:40:51My dream is to do prom dress parties,
0:40:51 > 0:40:54where I shall actually take a large selection of dresses and get
0:40:54 > 0:41:00girls together and choose it in the comfort and safety of their own home.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03It seemed Lindsey's pitch hit a raw nerve for one particular Dragon.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06I can't believe you've come into the Den today.
0:41:06 > 0:41:11I've gone through pain, tears, fights,
0:41:11 > 0:41:16strops of two 16-year-olds who are looking for a prom dress.
0:41:17 > 0:41:21But the story of the Paphitis twins ended up hindering,
0:41:21 > 0:41:23not helping Lindsay's hopes of investment.
0:41:23 > 0:41:28You said prom dresses are about to take the UK by storm,
0:41:28 > 0:41:30but I think it's already here.
0:41:30 > 0:41:35Yes. I just wanted to bring parties back to girls.
0:41:35 > 0:41:37And that's very nice, but it's not a business.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40I think you're right, in one thing.
0:41:40 > 0:41:42I think it is going to be a much bigger market.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45But, with respect, what you've pitched, anybody can pitch.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49I don't think you have anything behind it that said, "I've done this before."
0:41:49 > 0:41:52- I'm not going to invest and I'm out. - OK. Thank you for your time.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56Next in the Den was former nurse Adrienne Lane from Bristol,
0:41:56 > 0:41:58who brought a new approach to pitching.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00I would like to introduce the Voice Letter.
0:42:00 > 0:42:04She had a product that really did speak for itself.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06Can I give you this to turn it on, please?
0:42:06 > 0:42:08You can, thank you.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12'Hello, my name is Adrienne Lane.
0:42:12 > 0:42:15'I would like to ask for £15,000.'
0:42:15 > 0:42:20It is portable, it can be used by all ages, all cultures.
0:42:20 > 0:42:26Please help me to bring the letter into the 21st century.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30Now, the Dragons are always looking for the next big
0:42:30 > 0:42:32advance in technology.
0:42:32 > 0:42:36Is this purely a recording device that you sent by post?
0:42:36 > 0:42:39- Yes.- Have you sold any?
0:42:39 > 0:42:40Yes, I've sold five units.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44This is a very, very expensive way to deliver information,
0:42:44 > 0:42:46when everyone else is cutting costs.
0:42:46 > 0:42:48There has been an interest in the product.
0:42:48 > 0:42:50I think people have been very, very kind to you
0:42:50 > 0:42:52when they've shown an interest,
0:42:52 > 0:42:55or they've not been on Earth the last ten years of their lives.
0:42:57 > 0:43:01Sadly for Adrienne, her communications vision for the future
0:43:01 > 0:43:04was not shared by the multimillionaire investors.
0:43:04 > 0:43:06I don't want you to do this.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08- OK.- I don't want you to do it, because it's a bad idea.
0:43:08 > 0:43:13- OK.- There's so many communication devices which are, frankly, better.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15- I won't be investing.- OK.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17- So I'm afraid I'm out.- Good luck.
0:43:20 > 0:43:24Sometimes an entrepreneur has a lucky break and stumbles
0:43:24 > 0:43:29across a successful product overseas that's unknown to the UK.
0:43:29 > 0:43:32Our next entrepreneur, Karina Oldale from Yorkshire,
0:43:32 > 0:43:36has done exactly that, and now she wants a Dragon to come on board.
0:44:10 > 0:44:14Hello. I'm Karina Oldale from Envirothaw.
0:44:14 > 0:44:19I'm here today for £115,000 for 17%.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21We're a family-run business.
0:44:21 > 0:44:25We specialise in granular and fluid de-icer.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28It's an alternative to rock salt.
0:44:28 > 0:44:32This product will work down to -55.
0:44:32 > 0:44:34It's 90% less corrosive than rock salt.
0:44:34 > 0:44:35You can spread it with your hands.
0:44:35 > 0:44:39I have it in my hand in there day in, day out,
0:44:39 > 0:44:42and I've still got a thumb and four fingers.
0:44:43 > 0:44:48It's pet-friendly, child-friendly, it doesn't damage any surface at all.
0:44:48 > 0:44:52Our existing customers are airports,
0:44:52 > 0:44:57councils, retail outlets, stud farms.
0:44:57 > 0:45:01I'd like to invite you all up now to come and have a look how it works,
0:45:01 > 0:45:05and I'll look forward to any questions you've got.
0:45:09 > 0:45:11A pitch to tackle a national gripe.
0:45:11 > 0:45:15Rotherham-based Karina Oldale believes her product helps planes,
0:45:15 > 0:45:20trains and automobiles combat the effects of our icy British weather.
0:45:20 > 0:45:25She needs £115,000 in return for a precise 17% share.
0:45:25 > 0:45:27What's it doing? Just absorbing it?
0:45:27 > 0:45:30It's absorbing it, and watch. Now it's gone darker,
0:45:30 > 0:45:34what it'll start to do is start to penetrate down into the ice.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37The product seems to have struck a chord with one Dragon at least.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43Now, rock salt leaves a mess on my drive.
0:45:43 > 0:45:44Yes.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47What happens to this blue thing that I put down?
0:45:47 > 0:45:49It doesn't stain, it doesn't leave a residue.
0:45:49 > 0:45:52- Does it dissolve?- Yeah.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54So do you manufacture it?
0:45:54 > 0:45:55We ship it in.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57- From?- China.
0:45:57 > 0:46:02And does anybody own any particular intellectual rights on this?
0:46:02 > 0:46:03The manufacturers.
0:46:03 > 0:46:05How did you come across them?
0:46:05 > 0:46:07Oh, on the internet.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10I started talking to them, and eventually went out to see them.
0:46:10 > 0:46:15So you found it yourself, when no-one else had.
0:46:15 > 0:46:16Do you have the distribution rights?
0:46:18 > 0:46:20Well, don't go...
0:46:20 > 0:46:23I need to know more than...
0:46:24 > 0:46:26What have you got?
0:46:26 > 0:46:29Sole exclusive distribution for UK and Europe,
0:46:29 > 0:46:32but I've got to hit a target within five years.
0:46:32 > 0:46:34What's your target you've got to hit?
0:46:34 > 0:46:3640,000 tonnes.
0:46:36 > 0:46:42- Is that 40,000 tonnes over the term of the five years, or is it..? - Any one year.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45Just to save me a lot of time and headache trying to work it out,
0:46:45 > 0:46:48what would that make your turnover?
0:46:48 > 0:46:50About 10 or 11 million.
0:46:53 > 0:46:55Right.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00It's not often that an entrepreneur renders the Dragons speechless,
0:47:00 > 0:47:03but Karina seems to have done just that.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05It's Deborah Meaden who's first to recover.
0:47:06 > 0:47:10So, what shape is the business in at the moment?
0:47:10 > 0:47:14Right, first year, the turnover was 27,000.
0:47:14 > 0:47:17I made a loss of 64,000.
0:47:17 > 0:47:18OK.
0:47:18 > 0:47:21Year two, 192,000, break even.
0:47:22 > 0:47:29Year three, 923,000, with a profit of 203,000.
0:47:29 > 0:47:33I can explain why there's such a big jump.
0:47:33 > 0:47:34Year four...
0:47:34 > 0:47:36No, I think you're talking about...
0:47:36 > 0:47:39Projections. They are the projections.
0:47:39 > 0:47:44OK. So, why do you think you're suddenly go from 192,000 to 923,000?
0:47:44 > 0:47:49I've got a customer that I've been working with for two years,
0:47:49 > 0:47:55who we've got to modify it slightly, and once it's modified,
0:47:55 > 0:47:57their order is 130,000 tonnes.
0:47:58 > 0:48:02Karina, what's the modification he wants?
0:48:02 > 0:48:04What they do is they do a lot of freeze-thaw, freeze-thaw.
0:48:04 > 0:48:08With rock salt, their product deteriorates.
0:48:08 > 0:48:10They want something that deteriorates less.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13- Who's working on the modification? - China.
0:48:13 > 0:48:15- OK. You say it's a family-run business?- Yes.
0:48:15 > 0:48:17Who's in the family running it?
0:48:17 > 0:48:18My husband and my son.
0:48:18 > 0:48:22But I'm the majority shareholder.
0:48:22 > 0:48:23OK, so one more question.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25Yeah.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28I've forgotten what it is, but it's going to come back to me.
0:48:28 > 0:48:31Do you know, it's so nice, because it makes you seem so normal.
0:48:31 > 0:48:32A senior moment, you know?
0:48:32 > 0:48:34Do you want me to ask some questions?
0:48:34 > 0:48:37No, because my question will be gone and it'll come back
0:48:37 > 0:48:39with you in mid-flow. But I'm starting to give up now.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42It's not go to come back. It was a very good question!
0:48:42 > 0:48:44Shall I ask, Duncan?
0:48:44 > 0:48:46Go on.
0:48:46 > 0:48:48Might cover it.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50Oh, the question's come back. I've got it.
0:48:50 > 0:48:51Karina.
0:48:51 > 0:48:53Yes?
0:48:53 > 0:48:56How much money have you and the rest of your family put into this?
0:48:57 > 0:48:59£240,000.
0:48:59 > 0:49:04£240,000?!
0:49:09 > 0:49:12It's a revelation that shocks the Dragons.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14However, the South Yorkshire businesswoman remains calm
0:49:14 > 0:49:16and composed.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19Now Peter Jones wants to delve deeper into the detail.
0:49:21 > 0:49:24Karina, what did your husband say about the fact that you
0:49:24 > 0:49:28spent 240,000 of the family money?
0:49:28 > 0:49:31He actually said, "I'm very proud for what you've done, and what you've achieved."
0:49:31 > 0:49:33Are you very rich, Karina, then?
0:49:33 > 0:49:37No, we just graft. We're grafters.
0:49:37 > 0:49:39This will happen,
0:49:39 > 0:49:45because I can easily see it doing the projected figures.
0:49:45 > 0:49:46What if it doesn't?
0:49:47 > 0:49:52I've had a meeting this week with an international supermarket,
0:49:52 > 0:49:56and it's 90% certain that they're actually going to go with it.
0:49:59 > 0:50:00Who's the supermarket?
0:50:00 > 0:50:02Tesco's.
0:50:02 > 0:50:06And they're going to sell these pots?
0:50:07 > 0:50:09And how much stock have you got in value?
0:50:09 > 0:50:14265,000.
0:50:14 > 0:50:18So you haven't spent 240,000 developing this business.
0:50:18 > 0:50:19You've got stock.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21- Yes.- You just need to sell the stock. - Yes.
0:50:21 > 0:50:24Is that stock at cost, or at retail?
0:50:24 > 0:50:27- No, that's at cost. - What would you sell it for?
0:50:28 > 0:50:31About 650.
0:50:36 > 0:50:39There seems to be a game of cat and mouse in the Den, as the confident
0:50:39 > 0:50:44entrepreneur drip-feeds information, but that's a risky strategy.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47What will Deborah Meaden make of it all?
0:50:49 > 0:50:51Can you give me an idea,
0:50:51 > 0:50:57then, of the price of this compared to what they currently use?
0:50:57 > 0:51:00If you put it side-by-side, this is a lot dearer,
0:51:00 > 0:51:03but when you start working out the benefits,
0:51:03 > 0:51:06it actually then becomes more commercially viable.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08How much more expensive?
0:51:08 > 0:51:09It might be double.
0:51:11 > 0:51:13Can we go back to the supermarket?
0:51:13 > 0:51:14You've had a meeting with them.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17When you say 90% certain, why do you think that?
0:51:17 > 0:51:19When I first started talking,
0:51:19 > 0:51:22they actually said it would be for season 2014.
0:51:22 > 0:51:25I've spoken to her quite a few times, and in the end,
0:51:25 > 0:51:27I started bringing her up every fortnight,
0:51:27 > 0:51:31and we started laughing about it, and she's actually seen us this week for
0:51:31 > 0:51:37this next season, and she just said there's about 2,000 forms to fill in.
0:51:38 > 0:51:41What's happened now? Have you had a letter of intent?
0:51:41 > 0:51:42Have you had any...?
0:51:42 > 0:51:44No, it's erm...
0:51:44 > 0:51:47It was just some of the stuff that she said to us.
0:51:47 > 0:51:49They were all the buying signals.
0:51:52 > 0:51:54So, OK.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57From where I sit, you are the eternal optimist.
0:51:57 > 0:51:59No.
0:51:59 > 0:52:02I don't feel as optimistic about it as you do.
0:52:02 > 0:52:05I think you've got a tough slog to try, in these times, to sell to
0:52:05 > 0:52:08somebody something that is twice as expensive as the thing that they're
0:52:08 > 0:52:13currently buying, and they know works, so that's your challenge.
0:52:13 > 0:52:16- So I won't be investing. - Thanks for your time.
0:52:16 > 0:52:17- So I'm out.- Thank you.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23The strategy backfires,
0:52:23 > 0:52:26as the genial businesswoman fails to convince Deborah Meaden.
0:52:27 > 0:52:30And Duncan Bannatyne looks to have made up his mind, too.
0:52:31 > 0:52:33- Karina.- Yeah?
0:52:33 > 0:52:34Do you know what I think?
0:52:34 > 0:52:37I think the Tesco woman said, "Oh, she's a lovely lady,
0:52:37 > 0:52:41"I'll tell her there's 2,000 forms," because she wanted you to leave her office.
0:52:41 > 0:52:42No.
0:52:42 > 0:52:46Putting stepping stones, I don't think there's a big market for this,
0:52:46 > 0:52:49I don't think there's big customers out there.
0:52:49 > 0:52:52No, I don't agree, because we've actually got B&Q in Ireland.
0:52:52 > 0:52:54How many have been ordered?
0:52:55 > 0:52:58They were disappointed that they didn't sell more,
0:52:58 > 0:53:02but they had no snow, but they sold about 2,000 tubs.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05You know, I think you're just kidding yourself.
0:53:05 > 0:53:09You've lost £300,000.
0:53:11 > 0:53:12It's gone.
0:53:12 > 0:53:14No, I'll sell it next winter.
0:53:14 > 0:53:16OK. Well, you do that.
0:53:16 > 0:53:17I will.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20And I wish I was wrong and you were right.
0:53:20 > 0:53:24- That's like a red rag to a bull. - I can't invest in this.
0:53:24 > 0:53:26OK.
0:53:26 > 0:53:27I am out.
0:53:29 > 0:53:31- Karina.- Yes?
0:53:32 > 0:53:35I think that you'd be able to sell
0:53:35 > 0:53:38the ice that's to your left to Eskimos.
0:53:38 > 0:53:39Thank you.
0:53:40 > 0:53:43But I'm not sure you could sell the product that you've got to them.
0:53:45 > 0:53:50I wish you the very best of luck, and I am pleased at least
0:53:50 > 0:53:57you have an amount of stock that, at worst, if you were to sell,
0:53:57 > 0:54:00you would get the money you've invested personally in this venture.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05But if you don't get the bites this year,
0:54:05 > 0:54:09don't be optimistic that next year is going to come the lucky order.
0:54:10 > 0:54:14- I'm going to say that I'm out. - OK, thank you for your time.
0:54:18 > 0:54:22Intrigued they may be, but Karina is unable to close the deal with
0:54:22 > 0:54:27two more Dragons, and she has just one last chance of success.
0:54:30 > 0:54:36Karina, any way we can find to melt ice and snow quickly and safely
0:54:36 > 0:54:41would be a massive advantage to industry,
0:54:41 > 0:54:43business, householders, everybody.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48But to actually maintain your license,
0:54:48 > 0:54:53you've got to turn over £11 million.
0:54:53 > 0:54:55Yeah.
0:54:55 > 0:55:0140,000 tonnes in one year. It's a huge target.
0:55:01 > 0:55:03Well, it is and it isn't.
0:55:03 > 0:55:05If you get one of the airports,
0:55:05 > 0:55:10they use anything up to 500,000 tonnes in a bad winter.
0:55:12 > 0:55:14How many airports would you have to get?
0:55:14 > 0:55:16Only one.
0:55:16 > 0:55:20And I know you think I am very optimistic,
0:55:20 > 0:55:24but I've been working on Europe, and Europe gets a lot more snow.
0:55:30 > 0:55:31Right.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35One of us is barking mad.
0:55:39 > 0:55:41It's not me!
0:55:47 > 0:55:49I'm going to make you an offer.
0:55:51 > 0:55:55I'm going to offer you the full £115,000...
0:55:58 > 0:56:02..but I believe it's going to take so much work...
0:56:02 > 0:56:05I'm going to want 50% of the business.
0:56:16 > 0:56:17I can't.
0:56:19 > 0:56:21I can't.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25I've been given a figure by my husband and my son.
0:56:26 > 0:56:28And I just can't.
0:56:30 > 0:56:32Unless we can negotiate.
0:56:36 > 0:56:38What about if I hit the figures,
0:56:38 > 0:56:42would you then give me a percentage back?
0:56:51 > 0:56:55- This is a high-risk strategy for me. - Yeah.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01So I will want 50% of the business.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11I can't, I really can't. I'd love to, but I can't.
0:57:18 > 0:57:22Karina, I respect that.
0:57:22 > 0:57:26But I'm afraid I'm going to have to say I'm out.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32And I wish you luck, and I wish you prove Duncan wrong.
0:57:32 > 0:57:34Watch this space.
0:57:36 > 0:57:40It's a disappointing end. Plenty of Dragon plaudits,
0:57:40 > 0:57:43but the risk-reward ratio was just too high to negotiate a better deal.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46Karina leaves with nothing.
0:57:59 > 0:58:03So it's been a real Den first. A four-Dragon day.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05Fortunately, being a player down
0:58:05 > 0:58:08doesn't seem to have affected the team.
0:58:08 > 0:58:12If anything, we've seen more offers in one day than ever before.
0:58:12 > 0:58:15Next week, normal Den service resumes,
0:58:15 > 0:58:18as Hilary Devey returns to her rightful seat.
0:58:19 > 0:58:23If you'd like to know more about what made Karina decline that
0:58:23 > 0:58:27last-ditch offer from Theo Paphitis, press the red button now.
0:58:27 > 0:58:29Goodbye.
0:58:29 > 0:58:31Next week, in the Den.
0:58:31 > 0:58:34It's just a boring pitch.
0:58:34 > 0:58:37You've had more experience than most people have had in their lifetime!
0:58:37 > 0:58:41I just think your valuation is off the wall.
0:58:41 > 0:58:43And why are we here today, George?
0:58:43 > 0:58:48For £75,000, and a bag of sweets.
0:58:48 > 0:58:50You shouldn't spend any more time or money on this.
0:58:50 > 0:58:53I can't tell you how much I think you've got this wrong.
0:58:53 > 0:58:56You haven't just done well, I think you've done remarkably well.
0:58:58 > 0:58:59You got paper?
0:59:18 > 0:59:21Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd