0:00:26 > 0:00:28- EVAN DAVIS:- These are the dragons.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Five of Britain's wealthiest and most enterprising business leaders.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Over the coming weeks,
0:00:34 > 0:00:38they'll make or break the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42It's just a boring pitch.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Your valuation is off the wall.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48You've had more experience than most people have had in a lifetime.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50You can't make an offer on my behalf.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53Shall I go home and leave you all to it?
0:01:00 > 0:01:02The multimillionaire investors
0:01:02 > 0:01:05have each built up their fortunes from scratch.
0:01:09 > 0:01:10Retail magnate, Theo Paphitis.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14Hotel and health club owner, Duncan Bannatyne.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Leisure industry expert, Deborah Meaden.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Queen of logistics, Hilary Devey.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25And telecoms giant, Peter Jones.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28The dragons have the credentials,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31the contacts, the commitment and the cash ready to invest,
0:01:32 > 0:01:34but only in the right business.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs
0:01:37 > 0:01:39walk away with their money?
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Welcome back to the Dragon's Den.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54Now, imagine yourself in the role of the dragons.
0:01:54 > 0:01:55What questions would you ask?
0:01:55 > 0:01:58Who would you invest your money in and why?
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Now, don't forget, the dragons are not imagining anything.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05They're making real decisions using their own cash.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08They stand to make a fortune or to lose one,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12and that's why only the very best entrepreneurs who come here
0:02:12 > 0:02:13can expect to secure their backing.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Hello, Dragons.
0:02:40 > 0:02:41My name is Hannah Windrass.
0:02:42 > 0:02:46I'm asking you for £80,000
0:02:46 > 0:02:50and I'll give you 15% of the business.
0:02:50 > 0:02:51I'm a nurse,
0:02:52 > 0:02:54and I suffer with a terrible bad back.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Have you ever struggled to wash your face over the sink?
0:03:00 > 0:03:02Or struggled, ladies,
0:03:02 > 0:03:06to sit on the toilet? I have.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11I was given a solution.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15I didn't like it.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19My husband didn't like it. I have two girls, they hated it.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24They laugh at it and call it all sorts of funny names.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28An idea came to me
0:03:28 > 0:03:32to develop something that would be more attractive.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39And it's my pleasure to welcome you to the Nebo.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42Thank you very much.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49A polite but passionate plea from Birmingham's Hannah Windrass.
0:03:50 > 0:03:52Her invention offers some relief
0:03:52 > 0:03:56to the six million who suffer from chronic back problems in the UK.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00And she now needs £85,000 to launch her product.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04Deborah Meaden is first to question the likeable businesswoman.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10So, Hannah, has anybody else tried them or tested them?
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Yes, it's tested.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14- By who?- By Rapra.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16And what do they test it for?
0:04:16 > 0:04:19For the strength, durability.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21And how many of these are out there?
0:04:21 > 0:04:23Millions. Millions of these.
0:04:23 > 0:04:25One small company
0:04:25 > 0:04:29produces over two million pieces each year.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31And how much do those sell for?
0:04:31 > 0:04:34The cost for this, 70-odd pounds.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37And how much would yours be?
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Mine is £82.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43So is the idea that you could go back to toilets that are already fitted
0:04:43 > 0:04:45and put this underneath the toilet?
0:04:45 > 0:04:47- That's the beauty of it. - That's the beauty of it.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51You don't have to discard your toilet, all you need to do is just raise it. It's a plumber's job.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53OK.
0:04:53 > 0:04:54Can I just show you?
0:04:58 > 0:05:00- Oh!- Actually, this is a multi-kit piece.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05You can just install it there. Could I sit on it just to show?
0:05:07 > 0:05:09This is the best thing that ever happened to me.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17Precise and composed responses from the first-time entrepreneur.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20And Peter Jones looks to have something on his mind.
0:05:22 > 0:05:23- Hannah.- Yes.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27- You can't see when I'm sitting down, but I'm 6ft 7.- Yes.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30So when I go to the toilet and I start to squat down,
0:05:30 > 0:05:32I always feel that I'm about to sit on a flower pot.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35Would you like to have a try?
0:05:35 > 0:05:38I think so, yeah. I think a tall person should be on there.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40- I'd like to see it. - I'd like to see it.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50- That's fantastic.- Look at that, your knees are 90 degrees.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53You got a paper?
0:05:54 > 0:05:56This is, it is very comfortable, this.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01I think that you've invented something that clearly solves a problem.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07But, for example, you could, very simply,
0:06:07 > 0:06:12create a framework with some wood around the side, put cement in it,
0:06:12 > 0:06:15take the wood away when the cement dries.
0:06:15 > 0:06:18It's a very good question, but you have to buy the cement,
0:06:18 > 0:06:23that's money. You have to mould it, which would take days.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27And once it's there, it's there forever.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32I'll tell you what my problem is. I've seen both of these before.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36But I've patented it, I've had my patent.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40No, but I have seen it before. How long ago was it you patented it?
0:06:40 > 0:06:44I filed it July 2003.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47You see, I used to be in the care home market
0:06:47 > 0:06:50and I sold up in 1997.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52- Did you?- We had them before 1997.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54So I don't know how you could have patented it
0:06:54 > 0:06:56when it was already on the market.
0:06:56 > 0:06:57I have my certificate here.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00Let me have a look at it.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06OK. I'll let the other four Dragons ask you some questions
0:07:06 > 0:07:08while I'm reading your patent.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13Hannah, you've got a finished product.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15How much money have you spent on this?
0:07:20 > 0:07:2194,000.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33- Hannah. You were a career nurse? - Yeah.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36Nurses don't get paid a lot of money.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39It's my savings, pension.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45Because I do believe in it, I have a passion for it.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Where did you find 94,000? Did you borrow any of it?
0:07:48 > 0:07:50No, sir.
0:07:51 > 0:07:55It's just my savings. I make cuts and whatever little savings I have
0:07:56 > 0:07:59I put it towards it because I know.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01And you put all your money into this?
0:08:01 > 0:08:05Over the years, for how many years? Nearly, roughly, ten years.
0:08:07 > 0:08:12Did anybody ever say to you, "Hannah, stop"?
0:08:13 > 0:08:15Well everybody who spoke to me,
0:08:15 > 0:08:17they encouraged me, that is an excellent idea,
0:08:17 > 0:08:19and the demand is there.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24But Hannah, I'm going to have to say something
0:08:24 > 0:08:27- which you might not like to hear from me, because...- No, it's OK.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Face the stark reality of life, Hannah.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36Either this will work and people will buy it,
0:08:36 > 0:08:40or it's not going to work and you need to get on with your life.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42And there's only a few phone calls you need to make
0:08:42 > 0:08:45to the people that sell this equipment,
0:08:45 > 0:08:48and send them a couple of samples out, and you'll get the answer.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52This is not an investable opportunity for me.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54- Oh, dear.- So I'm out.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57OK, thank you.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03Disbelief in the den turns into stark reality,
0:09:03 > 0:09:06as Theo Paphitis offers Hannah some tough love.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10Peter Jones is ready to show his hand too.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18- Hannah, you're lovely.- Thank you.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20- But you know that.- I don't know.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22No, you are, you're lovely.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26But I think there are other ways of raising a toilet.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31I, for one, also know you can buy toilets in different, varying heights,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34so I'm not convinced that that would be the perfect solution.
0:09:34 > 0:09:38And if I can't see how I could make money out of it, I can't invest in something.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42So, Hannah, I'm going to politely decline your offer of investment and say that I'm out.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46Thank you.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Hannah. I'm going to say this because you're lovely.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55I don't want you to spend too much time on this.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57You've had some very, very good advice.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01I hope you've heard it and take it on board.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05And I really urge you,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08please think very hard before you spend any more money.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11- Yes.- I'm very sorry, but I'm out.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18Kind words but no cash from two more Dragons.
0:10:19 > 0:10:22Can Duncan Bannatyne find anything in the patent
0:10:22 > 0:10:26that will help deliver Hannah's dreams of investment?
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Now, looking at your patent,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32it does seem that there are other similar products.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35There's one called US 5 303 430.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39I'm glad you raised that topic because, when I did my research at the library
0:10:39 > 0:10:42from the Chamber of Commerce,
0:10:42 > 0:10:46that patent is like an old sink,
0:10:46 > 0:10:48- and the other one is like a massive bath.- OK, OK.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50And nothing pertaining to a toilet.
0:10:50 > 0:10:54Hannah, there are similar things on the market that people are using
0:10:54 > 0:10:56and have been using for a long time.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59And I think they would argue your patent.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04And I'm sorry, but you need to face up to that.
0:11:04 > 0:11:06You're a nice person, but I'm out.
0:11:08 > 0:11:13Hannah. I'm not going to invest money in you.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16But I will invest a little bit of time in you.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18And with the contacts that I have,
0:11:19 > 0:11:23with The Princess Trust for all carers and the Stroke Association,
0:11:23 > 0:11:27I will ask around to see whether or not
0:11:27 > 0:11:30it is required in their facilities.
0:11:30 > 0:11:31Thank you.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35If it does ease people's suffering and improve people's lives,
0:11:35 > 0:11:39then it's worth a bit of my time to try and help you do that.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41- Thank you so much. - So that's what I'm prepared to do.
0:11:41 > 0:11:46But, I'm afraid, as regards investment, I'm out.
0:11:47 > 0:11:48Thank you.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54- Patent lawyers.- That's outrageous.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56If someone puts markings for screw holes in a different place,
0:11:56 > 0:11:58they'll not infringe her patent.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03- £94,000.- A lot of money.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06Heartbreaking.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16The den has already witnessed its fair share of helpful holiday gadgets
0:12:16 > 0:12:19and time-saving travel solutions.
0:12:19 > 0:12:22Next to showcase his latest innovation in this sector
0:12:22 > 0:12:27was Kevin Stevens from York, accompanied by his two children.
0:12:28 > 0:12:30Snowmule is basically a rucksack
0:12:30 > 0:12:33designed to make skiing with children easier.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36It has two main features, the first is the carrying capacity.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38The second is the towing device.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40They would just grab a handle each out of the bag.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43I would have skis on as well.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51The handle goes back into the bag, everyone skis off, everyone's happy.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53Intrigued by the product demonstration,
0:12:53 > 0:12:57Deborah Meaden wanted to get the measure of Kevin himself.
0:12:57 > 0:12:58What's your background?
0:12:58 > 0:13:01I've been in sales a lot in my life.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05- Selling what? - Oh, crikey, all sorts of things.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08So how long have you been trading and what's your turnover been?
0:13:08 > 0:13:12Oh, about six months, it was just 300 bags, so about £15,000.
0:13:12 > 0:13:16Yeah, I've sold a few things, a bit of this, a bit of that. Yeah, yeah,
0:13:16 > 0:13:1815K or something like that.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Are you just a very casual guy, or what is it?
0:13:20 > 0:13:23- Well, I'm reasonably casual. - What do you do for a living now?
0:13:23 > 0:13:25- I'm an airline pilot. - You're an airline pilot!
0:13:25 > 0:13:27- Oh, please don't be casual, please! - So I'm not casual doing that.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31A good save by Kevin. He may have won the Dragons round,
0:13:31 > 0:13:34but that wasn't enough to convince them to invest.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38There's been rucksacks for skateboards and snowboards for years.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42It's not a brand new concept to say to a skiing family,
0:13:42 > 0:13:43"Would you like to take a rucksack skiing?"
0:13:43 > 0:13:47What I need to do is get them to say, "I might as well buy one that does all of these extra things."
0:13:49 > 0:13:52Would I buy one? Probably would.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55But it's not just a general rucksack, it's a seasonal item.
0:13:55 > 0:13:57- Yeah.- And one item,
0:13:57 > 0:14:02it's not a business that I can invest 90 grand in and get a return.
0:14:03 > 0:14:04- OK.- So I'm out.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06Well, thank you anyway.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Some really successful companies have emerged lately,
0:14:11 > 0:14:15adapting an idea that works for adults, to make it work for children.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Our next entrepreneur is Ashley Sayed,
0:14:18 > 0:14:20who's hoping to pull off the same trick.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41Hello. My name is Ashley
0:14:41 > 0:14:47and I'm looking for £150,000 for 25% in my company, Karuma Innovations.
0:14:48 > 0:14:52Based in Singapore, we have affordable, durable
0:14:52 > 0:14:56and easy to use tablets for kids and parents.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Our first product is PlayBase Go,
0:14:58 > 0:15:01designed to be as thin and as light as possible.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Our second product is PlayBase Plus.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06It's the world's first antibacterial tablet.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10Using our patented technology,
0:15:10 > 0:15:14it kills 99.99% of all germs
0:15:14 > 0:15:18on the screen and on the silicone covers.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21I've been speaking to retailers
0:15:21 > 0:15:25and distributors in Singapore, Malaysia,
0:15:25 > 0:15:27the UK and the States,
0:15:27 > 0:15:31and we've just achieved our first retail deal
0:15:31 > 0:15:35with the largest electronics retailer in South East Asia.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39I hope that you love PlayBase as much as I do,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42and thank you very much for taking the time to listen to me.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44Thank you.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50A hi-tech opportunity for the Dragons.
0:15:50 > 0:15:52Product designer, Ashley Sayed
0:15:52 > 0:15:55believes he can introduce his new lines to more customers
0:15:55 > 0:16:00if only he can get a £150,000 cash injection.
0:16:00 > 0:16:0325% equity is on offer.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06Peter Jones knows this sector well.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09- Ashley.- Yes.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12Who's the retailer that's taken this in Singapore?
0:16:12 > 0:16:14- It's Courts.- OK.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17We've had a lot of people that are really interested in the product.
0:16:17 > 0:16:20We went to CES in January this year.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22What's the total cost of this unit?
0:16:22 > 0:16:24179.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27And what does it cost you, delivered, landed here?
0:16:27 > 0:16:31It costs us about £60.
0:16:33 > 0:16:37What do you believe is unique about this product?
0:16:37 > 0:16:40OK, so there are a few unique things.
0:16:40 > 0:16:41As you know, a lot of kids are using
0:16:41 > 0:16:44their parents' iPads and things like that,
0:16:44 > 0:16:48and what I noticed was that they were dropping them,
0:16:48 > 0:16:50because they're not designed for kids.
0:16:50 > 0:16:52So, really, what we've done,
0:16:52 > 0:16:55is we've developed a much more durable product.
0:16:55 > 0:17:00And the fact that we've got our antibacterial protection as well.
0:17:01 > 0:17:04- Is that on this unit?- Correct.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07We basically developed a patent
0:17:07 > 0:17:11to put it into a film which goes onto the screen.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13OK.
0:17:14 > 0:17:18Robust responses from the Singapore-based businessman.
0:17:18 > 0:17:21So what of the entrepreneur himself?
0:17:21 > 0:17:23Deborah Meaden wants to know.
0:17:25 > 0:17:26What's your background, Ashley?
0:17:26 > 0:17:30OK, so I did a degree in product design engineering
0:17:30 > 0:17:33and worked for Motorola,
0:17:33 > 0:17:36developed their thinnest mobile phone in the world.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39Tom-Tom, where I was Head of Design.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42And after that, I had Philips chasing me for quite a while,
0:17:42 > 0:17:44and they offered me a great opportunity,
0:17:44 > 0:17:47managing teams of over 100 people.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50And then, I've always wanted to, obviously, set up my own business,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52that's when I set up in Singapore two years ago.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55OK, and how much money has it cost you to get
0:17:55 > 0:17:56where you are at the moment?
0:17:56 > 0:17:59It cost me around about £50,000 so far.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02And the money has come from just my own cash.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04OK.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06- Can we just talk a little bit about the patent?- Yeah.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08The antibacterial.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Which bit is actually the patentable bit?
0:18:11 > 0:18:16OK, so what we've done is we've taken silver ion technology,
0:18:16 > 0:18:17which is basically an agent,
0:18:17 > 0:18:22and the IP is based around how we apply that to a film,
0:18:22 > 0:18:26and then how we apply that film onto an electrical device.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29How long has it taken you to get it and how much have you spent?
0:18:29 > 0:18:31It's pending.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34When did you put the application in?
0:18:35 > 0:18:37About two months ago.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45Very early days, that's not quite having a patent, is it?
0:18:45 > 0:18:47Yeah, it's patent-pending, so I mean,
0:18:47 > 0:18:51obviously, we did our checks and we know what's in the market right now.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55And the process of putting on the agent onto the film
0:18:55 > 0:18:57is very, very difficult.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05The first sign of uncertainty from Ashley.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09It looks like alarm bells are ringing for retail expert Theo Paphitis.
0:19:13 > 0:19:17OK, where do I start? This market, hugely competitive.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21- Yep.- I bought one of these. Not this one.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24- 100 quid.- Yeah, I mean, can I...
0:19:24 > 0:19:27So price-wise,
0:19:27 > 0:19:30you're way above what the market is
0:19:30 > 0:19:32for generic tablets of this size.
0:19:32 > 0:19:36Yep. The thing is, look, we're not going to compete on price,
0:19:36 > 0:19:38because we'll always lose that war.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41So what we're trying to do is understand the end user
0:19:41 > 0:19:45and listen to them and feedback as much as we can into the product.
0:19:45 > 0:19:50So the actual tablet itself, you say that's all your design, is it?
0:19:50 > 0:19:55Yeah, we basically did the design for the covers and the external,
0:19:55 > 0:19:57but the reference design for the PCB,
0:19:57 > 0:20:00it comes from our contract manufacturer.
0:20:00 > 0:20:02So we basically put a skin around it.
0:20:02 > 0:20:03- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:20:04 > 0:20:07So the innards, basically,
0:20:07 > 0:20:09are the same as you would get in any of the other tablets.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13Yeah, but what you've got to understand is they're all running android.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16An android has a set of buttons, as you know, right.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19- Thank you. - That's correct, yeah.
0:20:20 > 0:20:24Ashley, my 150 grand
0:20:25 > 0:20:29isn't going to go very far in developing these products
0:20:29 > 0:20:34in what is an incredibly fast-moving market.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Yeah, but look at Steve Jobs and Wozniak, right.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39They developed the Apple I, Apple II
0:20:39 > 0:20:42in their garage when HP were giants.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44Don't forget, if it wasn't for Microsoft, Apple wouldn't exist.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49- Well, that's true, yeah. - I mean it changes so quickly,
0:20:49 > 0:20:51with so many dominant players.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Unfortunately, whilst I like the subject matter,
0:20:56 > 0:20:58and I'd probably enjoy working with you,
0:20:58 > 0:21:01150,000 to get into that market
0:21:01 > 0:21:03is not going to do it, it's too competitive,
0:21:03 > 0:21:07even with my own, personal distribution channel that I've got.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13- So I'm afraid I'm out.- OK, thanks.
0:21:16 > 0:21:20Despite a confident repost, Ashley loses his first Dragon.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23And it doesn't look like Duncan Bannatyne
0:21:23 > 0:21:25is going to offer him any hope either.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Ashley, I have to say, I think you presented very well.
0:21:33 > 0:21:37But technology and gadgets is not my strength.
0:21:38 > 0:21:41So there's nothing I can really add, so for that reason
0:21:41 > 0:21:45and for that reason only, I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:21:45 > 0:21:46OK.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51Ashley. You're great, you're really good.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54You've got great track record.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58And the bit that could've interested me was the antibacterial,
0:21:58 > 0:22:03because I can see that, if you had a patent on that,
0:22:03 > 0:22:05that could be very valuable.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08- Very valuable.- Yeah, that's what we believe, yeah.- But, the trouble is,
0:22:08 > 0:22:11I don't think you're going to convince me that that will go through
0:22:11 > 0:22:14when you've only put your patent application in two months ago.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18And, if you ask me to put my money on it,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21I would probably say, I don't think you'll get that.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25So I won't be investing in you, Ashley. I'm out.
0:22:27 > 0:22:32Ashley. I can't put it any more succinctly than what Deborah has.
0:22:32 > 0:22:37And again, I think that we all think that you're very credible
0:22:37 > 0:22:39and, obviously, very knowledgeable.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43But, unfortunately, I won't be investing today.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45- OK.- So I'm out.
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Ashley puts on a brave face
0:22:49 > 0:22:54as three Dragons declare themselves out in quick succession.
0:22:54 > 0:22:59Now, only Peter Jones can save him from complete failure in the den.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06That leaves me, Ashley. You're a product guy,
0:23:06 > 0:23:09but I think it's poorly designed.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13I just turned that and it just ripped.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17I don't think... I mean, look, I'm not pulling it hard, but that's gone.
0:23:17 > 0:23:19Yeah, we have actually addressed that
0:23:19 > 0:23:22by increasing the thickness of the material.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24Is this a prototype?
0:23:24 > 0:23:27- Well, this is a pre-production unit. - OK.- Yeah.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31Look, I know this is not absolutely perfect,
0:23:31 > 0:23:33OK, and what we've done is,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35with the development of our second generation,
0:23:35 > 0:23:39we've got some really cool IP that I've developed.
0:23:39 > 0:23:40What's the IP you've developed?
0:23:40 > 0:23:42We've figured out a way to do wireless charging.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45And what we've done is figure out how to build it inside the product.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49We will be able to charge two or three PlayBases at the same time.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52You know, I understand all the things that you've said.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54And everyone thinks I'm crazy, obviously, to go into a market
0:23:54 > 0:23:56that's so competitive.
0:23:56 > 0:24:00But, being based in Singapore, we can actually at least be quicker
0:24:00 > 0:24:04than everybody else in developing the technology and bringing it out.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07So you've come over here, all the way from Singapore, to pitch to us.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Yeah. Two days ago.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12Wow.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19Ashley, I think you're really employable.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25And, if you were pitching...
0:24:27 > 0:24:29..for a job,
0:24:30 > 0:24:32I'd offer you a job.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38It's an interesting one.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44How would you feel if I put an offer together
0:24:45 > 0:24:48on the basis of employing you directly
0:24:49 > 0:24:53so, ultimately, you get what you wanted coming into the den?
0:24:57 > 0:25:01Yeah, OK, I'd be interested in doing that in a deal.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07- Yeah, I'll be interested.- OK. So I'm going to make you an offer.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10OK.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12I'm going to offer you £150,000,
0:25:17 > 0:25:19which would be paid to you,
0:25:20 > 0:25:23and you go and prove that this concept works.
0:25:26 > 0:25:27Right.
0:25:29 > 0:25:33And if, within that 12 months, we've got a product
0:25:34 > 0:25:37that can go to market and that can make money,
0:25:39 > 0:25:42I will fold your concept into one of my existing businesses.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46And you would end up with, if successful,
0:25:46 > 0:25:4925% ownership of that division.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52Right.
0:25:52 > 0:25:57But if, after 12 months, this division has not made money,
0:26:03 > 0:26:06I want the right to be able to have a conversation with you
0:26:06 > 0:26:08and we both go our lonely ways.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23OK, we'll do a deal.
0:26:23 > 0:26:24- HILARY:- Well done.
0:26:24 > 0:26:25DRAGONS APPLAUSE
0:26:25 > 0:26:28- Thanks.- Well done.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30It's an extraordinary conclusion.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33- How do you feel?- Tired.
0:26:33 > 0:26:37Ashley's paying a high price, but he's got the money he needs,
0:26:37 > 0:26:40and the full support of Peter Jones' technology empire.
0:26:41 > 0:26:45- Good deal. Very clever, Peter. - Thank you.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58The rise of e-commerce has led to many traditional industries
0:26:58 > 0:27:02being overhauled and reworked into lucrative web-based ventures.
0:27:02 > 0:27:06Solicitor James Mather and business partner, Lloyd Barrett,
0:27:06 > 0:27:08hoped they'd launched the latest.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11High street legal advice is getting more and more expensive
0:27:11 > 0:27:13and legal aid is being cut.
0:27:13 > 0:27:15Expert Answers aims to bridge that gap.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18It's a legal questions and answer website.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21The user puts the question on the site
0:27:21 > 0:27:25and then they decide on how much they want to pay for the answer.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28The minimum's ten, the maximum's 150.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33First to raise an objection to their money-making proposal was Duncan Bannatyne.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Let's suppose I come on and I want to pay ten quid, do I get an answer?
0:27:37 > 0:27:38Yes.
0:27:38 > 0:27:41So why would I pay more if I can get the answer for £10?
0:27:41 > 0:27:46The fact is that the public do because there's a perception of the value of their question.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50So, all the products I sell online now,
0:27:50 > 0:27:52I should actually put a range of prices so people might pay more?
0:27:52 > 0:27:54It's not a good idea that, really.
0:27:56 > 0:28:00Jokes aside, the Dragons still had further interrogation for James and Lloyd.
0:28:00 > 0:28:04You believe that this is worth a million pounds?
0:28:04 > 0:28:08There is one other site in the world doing exactly the same.
0:28:08 > 0:28:10- And they...- Just hang on.- Sorry.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14And they are turning over... You've got an idea of the turnover.
0:28:14 > 0:28:172.2 million, just on the UK alone.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23I like the concept, but you're now competing with a monster out there.
0:28:24 > 0:28:29Final verdicts in, and it was left to Deborah Meaden to close proceedings.
0:28:29 > 0:28:33Actually, I think you've got this right for people who want very, very cheap advice.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36I can't tell you how much I think you've got this wrong
0:28:36 > 0:28:39to get a proper return on your investment.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42- So I'm not investing and I'm out. - Thank you.
0:28:42 > 0:28:47So far tonight, only one entrepreneur has secured a multimillionaire investor,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50creating a new deal and company, here in the den.
0:28:50 > 0:28:52OK, we'll do a deal.
0:28:52 > 0:28:53- Thanks.- Well done.
0:28:53 > 0:28:58For an update on how some of our previous entrepreneurs are getting on,
0:28:58 > 0:29:01press the red button at the end of the programme.
0:29:05 > 0:29:08Do you ever wonder where entrepreneurs get their ideas from?
0:29:08 > 0:29:11Well, as often as not, it's from their own, personal experience.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15And that was the case for close friends Natalie Balmond and Weze Hannam.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19But what kind of experience will they endure in front of the Dragons?
0:29:39 > 0:29:43Hello. My name's Natalie and this is Weze, by codirector.
0:29:43 > 0:29:48We're looking for £90,000, in return for 15% of our business,
0:29:48 > 0:29:50Purepotions Skincare.
0:29:51 > 0:29:55Millions of people worldwide suffer from severe dry skin.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00These statistics meant very little to me until my daughter, Lula,
0:30:00 > 0:30:02developed a chronic dry skin condition, and I was desperate
0:30:02 > 0:30:08to find a moisturiser which would not aggravate her sensitive and allergy-prone skin even further.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12Finally, I took matters into my own hands
0:30:12 > 0:30:16and I formulated an ointment at my kitchen sink,
0:30:16 > 0:30:18which, within a matter of days, transformed Lula's life.
0:30:18 > 0:30:21As a business, we have a strong foothold in the natural health market.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24We have a web shop. We're in 200 health stores,
0:30:24 > 0:30:27carried by three distributors, and we are available in one high street chain.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32The products are listed on the NHS drugs tariff, and, in certain circumstances,
0:30:32 > 0:30:34are being prescribed by GPs.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38Since March last year, we've sold around 42,000 units
0:30:38 > 0:30:41and we now feel ready to position ourselves as a more mainstream offering
0:30:41 > 0:30:43on the high street and internationally.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47We would like your help to grow this brand into a household name
0:30:47 > 0:30:50and help the six million sufferers to lead a better life.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53Thank you.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58A product and a business born out of necessity.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01Brighton-based Natalie Balmond and Weze Hannam
0:31:01 > 0:31:06want to expand their moisturising cream company
0:31:06 > 0:31:08and they need £90,000 from the Dragons to do it.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10They're offering 15% equity in return.
0:31:11 > 0:31:15Retail expert, Theo Paphitis, wants to drill straight down into the numbers.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20- Natalie.- Hello.- I'm Theo. - And it's Weze?
0:31:20 > 0:31:22Weze, yes.
0:31:22 > 0:31:26So you've got some track record, hit me with some numbers.
0:31:26 > 0:31:31OK, in 2009/10 we turned over 81,000 and we made a loss of 12,000.
0:31:32 > 0:31:3610-11, we turned over 148 and we made 11,000.
0:31:37 > 0:31:41And this year coming to an end now, we will have turned over 450,000,
0:31:41 > 0:31:44and we will have made a profit of 27,
0:31:44 > 0:31:47but we've put 29,000 back into the company in marketing activities.
0:31:48 > 0:31:53OK, which is the high street chain that you talk about?
0:31:53 > 0:31:55We're in Holland & Barrett.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58What about Boots, there's Superdrug, there's Lloyds, what about them?
0:31:58 > 0:32:02Well, it would be fair to say that, so far, we've concentrated in the health food world
0:32:02 > 0:32:06because, when the product began, it sort of had a natural affinity, because it's a natural product,
0:32:06 > 0:32:10and we've grown the brand there, but we'd very much like to see it on the shelf in those chains.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14OK, that's good. Now, I want to understand,
0:32:14 > 0:32:17you mentioned in some cases this is prescribed.
0:32:17 > 0:32:22- Yes.- I assume that there's been clinical trials
0:32:22 > 0:32:24to prove its benefits?
0:32:24 > 0:32:27Well, actually, not so.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30GPs can prescribe products that don't hold a medical licence
0:32:30 > 0:32:33if they feel it's going to be beneficial to their patient.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36Be careful, I want to make sure. You're making claims
0:32:36 > 0:32:40and it's those claims which are the key ones.
0:32:40 > 0:32:44Essentially, the reason it was developed was as a moisturiser,
0:32:44 > 0:32:47and there are other products out there that are being prescribed,
0:32:47 > 0:32:50and so we're seeing out there that there are models,
0:32:50 > 0:32:52other companies that have done this exactly the same as us,
0:32:52 > 0:32:54but don't carry medical licences.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57- Without clinical trials. - And without clinical trials, yeah.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59OK, thank you.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Calm and confident assurances from the duo.
0:33:04 > 0:33:06Peter Jones looks impressed.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10- Hi Weze, hi Natalie. I'm Peter. - Hi, Peter.- Hello, Peter.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13- I've got to say congratulations. - Thank you.- Thank you.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17And how much money did you both invest at the start? I'm assuming probably nothing, but...
0:33:17 > 0:33:20- Well, when I joined the business, I put in 11,500.- Yeah.
0:33:20 > 0:33:22- Five years ago.- Five years ago.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25And what's the business like now in terms of cash?
0:33:25 > 0:33:29It would be fair to say that, month by month, the cash can be tight.
0:33:29 > 0:33:33We're basically breaking even a lot of the time, so we need to up the volumes now.
0:33:33 > 0:33:35So how much money have you got in the bank today?
0:33:35 > 0:33:40- In the bank today, we've got 9,000. - And how much money do you owe?
0:33:40 > 0:33:42About 15,000.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46- And have you got any loans in the business?- Yeah, there's a 30,000 loan.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51- Who's that from?- It was a consultant that got involved with us last year.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54He actually came into the business with the task
0:33:54 > 0:33:56of looking for investment for us.
0:33:57 > 0:34:01We don't work with him any longer. We felt that it wasn't going anywhere.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06- Well, hold on, sorry. He leant you £30,000?- Mm-hm.
0:34:06 > 0:34:11So which part of the arrangement, which was for him to get investment, didn't he fulfil?
0:34:11 > 0:34:13Putting us in front of investors.
0:34:13 > 0:34:17I mean, we wanted to work with him because we wanted to get investment into the company
0:34:17 > 0:34:22and that part of our arrangement with him hadn't come to fruition.
0:34:23 > 0:34:28- What are the terms of the loan? - We agreed that the loan would be paid back in instalments,
0:34:28 > 0:34:30so we pay it back on a monthly amount.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32So it's sort of kept the cash in the business.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36- What's the interest rate on it? - It's 25p a day.
0:34:39 > 0:34:43OK, that has thrown me, you've got me.
0:34:43 > 0:34:45That's definitely thrown me.
0:34:45 > 0:34:47Do you realise what that means?
0:34:47 > 0:34:50Somebody lent you £30,000 for 90 quid interest a year.
0:34:51 > 0:34:55In all honesty, in lots of business relationships, people come together,
0:34:55 > 0:34:58they have something that they come together over, they've got lots in common,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01they work together, and then naturally people part.
0:35:01 > 0:35:03We haven't had any huge fallings-out with people.
0:35:03 > 0:35:06It's just unfolded in that way for us.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15Natalie, Weze, when you first came up, I'm thinking,
0:35:15 > 0:35:19it's a great story, you've created a real business
0:35:19 > 0:35:21from a situation and circumstance.
0:35:21 > 0:35:26But if I was that person that invested £90,000 for 15% of your company,
0:35:28 > 0:35:33and perhaps I wasn't playing that part, in your mind, of what you thought I was there to do,
0:35:34 > 0:35:37I'd feel that actually, I'm going to be having similar conversations
0:35:37 > 0:35:41and you'd be saying, "Peter, look, we don't really need you in the business any more".
0:35:42 > 0:35:44So that is the reason why, ladies, I'm out.
0:35:49 > 0:35:54A damning analysis from Peter Jones and an early blow for Natalie and Weze.
0:35:54 > 0:35:58But can Duncan Bannatyne see beyond his rival's concerns?
0:36:02 > 0:36:06OK, so, how many Holland & Barrett stores is your product in?
0:36:06 > 0:36:08It's in 212 at the moment.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11What's the average sale per store?
0:36:11 > 0:36:13Well, at the moment we're still in our trial period,
0:36:13 > 0:36:17so we've got a 12-week trial that we're just coming to the end of now,
0:36:17 > 0:36:19so actually we have provided them with free fill for that trial.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22That was the conditions that they wanted us in under.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25- You've given them the product free? - Yes.- In their stores?
0:36:25 > 0:36:26They put half the amount in first
0:36:26 > 0:36:30and they've now restocked the 212 shops because they're selling out.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33So it is going really well and we're now waiting for an order to come in from them.
0:36:33 > 0:36:37OK, so you must have had a deal where you got some feedback.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40- Yeah.- What volume of your product they sell?
0:36:40 > 0:36:43Yeah, we were on the understanding that we would be given updates,
0:36:43 > 0:36:47and the feedback that we've received so far is that they are selling the products.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50- How much free fill did you give them?- We had to give them 2,000 units.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54- What's it worth to them? - It's worth 26,000.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57- 26,000.- Yeah.- So they've got £26,000 of free stock from you.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59- Yes.- That's worrying.
0:36:59 > 0:37:02Because, if you're sitting there waiting for a new order,
0:37:02 > 0:37:06and you don't know what the sell rate is, you might not get an order.
0:37:06 > 0:37:08Yeah. It's absolutely true.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13What surprises me is that you've had to give free products,
0:37:14 > 0:37:18and that neither of you had the acumen to say,
0:37:18 > 0:37:21"There is 26K worth of profit to you,
0:37:21 > 0:37:24"clear profit, because we're giving it you.
0:37:24 > 0:37:27"Now, in exchange for that,
0:37:27 > 0:37:31"we want a contract with you that says you will run a trial with your customers."
0:37:32 > 0:37:34And yet you didn't think of that.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36Didn't think of running a trial with the customers, no.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39If you'd have gone out to a marketing company,
0:37:39 > 0:37:43part of that strategy would have been that they had to report back to you
0:37:43 > 0:37:47what was gleaned from that marketing strategy.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49They are meant to be giving us some feedback.
0:37:49 > 0:37:51But you should have had it in writing.
0:37:51 > 0:37:55Yeah, we should, you're right, yeah.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57We live and learn.
0:38:00 > 0:38:03Let me tell you where I'm at. I think it's lovely.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06It feels really nice on your skin, so well done for that.
0:38:06 > 0:38:10And I can imagine it actually moisturising dry skin.
0:38:12 > 0:38:16But I just think you've got so far to go, so many hurdles to jump,
0:38:17 > 0:38:19I'm sorry. I've got to say I'm out.
0:38:23 > 0:38:26The duo's early confidence takes a further hit
0:38:26 > 0:38:29as Hilary Devey walks away from the deal.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33And it looks like Theo Paphitis has made up his mind too.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38Ladies, I think you've got a cream
0:38:38 > 0:38:40that obviously moisturises.
0:38:42 > 0:38:46But you've had a business together for over five years.
0:38:47 > 0:38:49You should know it inside out.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53We are lacking in experience and it's showing, and perhaps it's...
0:38:53 > 0:38:55No, you've been going for years,
0:38:55 > 0:38:57you've had consultants, you've had partners,
0:38:57 > 0:39:01you've had more experience than most people have had in a lifetime.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05I'm not going to come and run your business.
0:39:05 > 0:39:08If other Dragons wish to do that, that's down to them.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11But I invest, I guide and you run the business.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15But, to be honest with you, I don't think I could leave you to your own devices.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21I don't think it's investable for me. So, I'm afraid, I'm out.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23- OK, thank you.- OK, thank you.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30I have got much respect for you and what you've done,
0:39:30 > 0:39:34but I haven't heard anything to convince me
0:39:34 > 0:39:38that this company's worth an investment that values the company at nearly £600,000.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42I think the valuation's far too high.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46It's not an investable product at the moment.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50Not for me anyway. So I'm really sorry but I've got to say...I'm out.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52OK.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57You are very reassuring. We've accidently stumbled
0:39:57 > 0:40:01across quite a few important pieces of information we should have known about.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04But you see, you nod reassuringly,
0:40:04 > 0:40:06and I sit here and I think, no, that's fine.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09Well, actually, to be fair, I don't think it is fine at all.
0:40:09 > 0:40:13I think you're right, and I can absolutely see why you'd be alarmed by it.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20When I invest in a business, I have to feel comfortable.
0:40:21 > 0:40:26And what worries me is, if I was working with you in the organisation,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30I could see you nodding reassuringly at me
0:40:30 > 0:40:35and giving me very good explanations and this, sort of, warm glow washing over me
0:40:35 > 0:40:37and thinking everything's all right.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39And then finding it's not.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42So I won't be investing, I'm afraid. I'm out.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44- OK, thank you.- Thanks. Bye-bye.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49It was a promising start for Natalie and Weze.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52But these Dragons need more than just a good product
0:40:52 > 0:40:56before they invest their own cash. The duo leave with nothing.
0:40:57 > 0:41:01It's a very difficult situation to get enough points across
0:41:01 > 0:41:03in a sort of clear and concise way.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06I think they found it difficult to decipher all the different things
0:41:06 > 0:41:09that have happened, the history, the people we've worked with.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11But they could tell we were doing a good thing,
0:41:11 > 0:41:14and that's another reason for us to carry on.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24Other entrepreneurs who tried and failed in the den
0:41:24 > 0:41:27included Chris Poole and Ashley Watson from Birmingham,
0:41:27 > 0:41:29who brought four year-old George
0:41:29 > 0:41:31to demonstrate their musical invention.
0:41:31 > 0:41:33"Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star"
0:41:45 > 0:41:46DRAGONS CHEER AND APPLAUD
0:41:48 > 0:41:51When teaching the guitar, the most common problem I found
0:41:51 > 0:41:54was teaching students how to read traditional music.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57Our method can be applied to any musical instrument,
0:41:57 > 0:41:59using the coloured strings which then correspond
0:41:59 > 0:42:01with the coloured musical notes through the book.
0:42:01 > 0:42:02And why are we here today, George?
0:42:02 > 0:42:06For £75,000
0:42:06 > 0:42:08for 10% and a bag of sweets.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13George proved the perfect tactic in their pitch,
0:42:13 > 0:42:15but that didn't spare Chris and Ashley's business
0:42:15 > 0:42:17from the usual interrogation.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21Great to see George, four years of age, clearly playing.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23I have an immediate issue.
0:42:23 > 0:42:25I don't know whether it's better with colours
0:42:25 > 0:42:28or whether it's better to go string two, three, four or five.
0:42:28 > 0:42:29If you call them one, two and three,
0:42:29 > 0:42:33they get mixed up between the frets one, two and three.
0:42:33 > 0:42:36So, whilst numbers proved bad for their product,
0:42:36 > 0:42:39unfortunately they also proved bad for their business.
0:42:39 > 0:42:41I think what you're doing is fantastic,
0:42:41 > 0:42:45and I just think your valuation is off the wall.
0:42:45 > 0:42:50It's good, but 75 grand is too big a number.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54- I'm going to say, I'm out. - Thank you very much, thank you.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58Next into the den was Jamie O'Connor from Halifax.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01She needed £60,000 for her nifty oven gadget.
0:43:02 > 0:43:07During cooking, splashes of fat stick onto the inside of the oven door.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09To overcome this problem,
0:43:09 > 0:43:13simply replace the oven door shield with a suction fixing.
0:43:14 > 0:43:18Single product businesses have a tough mountain to climb to gain investment.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20So how did Jamie fare?
0:43:20 > 0:43:22I do think it's an inventive product
0:43:22 > 0:43:25but I think it's a very, very tiny considered market.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27But I've got quite a lot of interest.
0:43:27 > 0:43:29We're ready to deliver into Currys,
0:43:29 > 0:43:33Comet, Betterware, all different avenues.
0:43:33 > 0:43:37There's three major retailers talking five million in the States.
0:43:37 > 0:43:40There's so many roads I can go down.
0:43:40 > 0:43:42Impressive revelations from the mother of two,
0:43:42 > 0:43:45which led to some high praise in the den.
0:43:46 > 0:43:48You've done remarkably well
0:43:48 > 0:43:52and I hope you go on to make it a huge, huge success.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54You've developed something, you've taken it to market,
0:43:54 > 0:43:58you've sold it, you've got interest from abroad.
0:43:58 > 0:44:00You know what, there's times when we don't invest
0:44:00 > 0:44:04and we really do wish to see someone become incredibly successful,
0:44:04 > 0:44:07and you're one of them. So I'm sorry, I'm out.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09Thanks.
0:44:12 > 0:44:16Our next entrepreneurs live together, they share a pastime together,
0:44:16 > 0:44:18and they've built a business out of it together.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21Husband and wife team, Anne and Keith Proctor.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24They are next to face the Dragons.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Hello. My name's Anne Proctor,
0:44:56 > 0:44:59I'm the managing director of Protec Covers,
0:44:59 > 0:45:02and I'm here to ask today for £75,000
0:45:02 > 0:45:05for 10% of the company.
0:45:05 > 0:45:09This is Keith Proctor, he's my fellow director,
0:45:10 > 0:45:12he has got many skills within the company,
0:45:12 > 0:45:14the main one being, he makes good coffee.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18Oh, thank you. I do actually make good coffee.
0:45:18 > 0:45:21But we also make very good covers.
0:45:22 > 0:45:26If you've just spent £15,000 on a caravan,
0:45:26 > 0:45:28or even triple that on a motor home,
0:45:28 > 0:45:33you don't want to sit there watching it depreciate in the weather
0:45:33 > 0:45:35and all the things that the elements can throw at it.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39So our covers will protect it from all that.
0:45:39 > 0:45:41The fabric is a trilaminate.
0:45:41 > 0:45:44It's got a patented breather membrane
0:45:45 > 0:45:48and, basically, this demonstration will show.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53This is a hollow tube and the fabric is in the middle.
0:45:53 > 0:45:57- The water is staying on top of the fabric, it's not going through- .
0:45:57 > 0:45:58But if we put air...
0:46:00 > 0:46:02The air will travel through the fabric
0:46:02 > 0:46:04and the water won't go the other way.
0:46:04 > 0:46:07So it will keep all the water on top of the caravan cover
0:46:07 > 0:46:09and keep the inside nice and dry.
0:46:10 > 0:46:14The other thing that our covers have is the Easy Fit system.
0:46:14 > 0:46:19You can lift this off and go forward with it, and then lift it back on.
0:46:19 > 0:46:24And that's what Protec Covers have got, so we're open to any questions.
0:46:28 > 0:46:31A rather subdued pitch from husband and wife team,
0:46:31 > 0:46:32Anne and Keith Proctor.
0:46:32 > 0:46:34They need £75,000
0:46:34 > 0:46:37to take their protective cover business to a wider market.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41On offer is a 10% stake.
0:46:41 > 0:46:44But is that enough to excite Peter Jones?
0:46:45 > 0:46:49- Keith, Anne, I'm Peter. Hello. - Hi, Peter.- Hello.
0:46:49 > 0:46:52I'm seeing a cover with a pole and thinking, you've got to be kidding me.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57And it's just a boring pitch.
0:46:59 > 0:47:01- We're from Yorkshire, so it's... - Does that make a difference?
0:47:01 > 0:47:03Well, we don't get excited over stuff, do we?
0:47:03 > 0:47:06- You definitely don't.- Yeah.
0:47:06 > 0:47:09OK, so how long have you been going in business, selling these?
0:47:09 > 0:47:12- 12 years.- 12 years?- Yeah.
0:47:13 > 0:47:16Give me last year's financials.
0:47:16 > 0:47:20Right, the turnover was 885,000,
0:47:21 > 0:47:23gross profit was 220,
0:47:24 > 0:47:26and the net profit was 86.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29What are you going to do over the next 12 months?
0:47:29 > 0:47:34Next year, with investment, we'd be looking at 1.65 million.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37The net profit would be 164,000.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44I look a bit stupid now, I take it back.
0:47:44 > 0:47:48- You've sold nearly a million pounds' worth of covers of these?- Yeah.
0:47:50 > 0:47:52I am absolutely staggered that you have been able to make
0:47:52 > 0:47:55that much money out of a tarpaulin cover and pole.
0:47:55 > 0:47:58Please don't call it a tarpaulin, it's a lovely fabric.
0:47:58 > 0:48:01- It's a lovely fabric cover then, and a pole.- Yeah.
0:48:04 > 0:48:07A Dragon floored by the entrepreneurs' success.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10A rare moment in the den.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13Now, Theo Paphitis wants to dig deeper into the detail
0:48:13 > 0:48:16of this thriving, Bradford-based company.
0:48:17 > 0:48:21What is it that £75,000
0:48:21 > 0:48:23is going to affect your business
0:48:23 > 0:48:27so dramatically that it's going to double its turnover?
0:48:27 > 0:48:31At the moment, we can only fulfil so many orders due to production,
0:48:31 > 0:48:34to the machinery and the capabilities that we've got.
0:48:34 > 0:48:38We've been looking at new machinery so that we can therefore increase production.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40Well, how much is that machinery going to cost?
0:48:40 > 0:48:45It's £15,000 per machine.
0:48:45 > 0:48:49- THEO:- OK, but Anne, you've just told Peter you've got cash in the business.
0:48:49 > 0:48:51Yeah. The reason the money stays in the bank
0:48:51 > 0:48:55is because the covers are a winter product.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58So when we come into February or March,
0:48:58 > 0:49:01we've got nothing to go through the summer.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04- I see, so it's cash flow? - So it's cash flow.- OK.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07- DEBORAH:- So how does that relate to the numbers?
0:49:07 > 0:49:11Once you've invested this money, what's your capacity?
0:49:11 > 0:49:14We can produce now up to 70 covers a week
0:49:14 > 0:49:16at the peak times.
0:49:16 > 0:49:18So when you've actually spent this money,
0:49:18 > 0:49:20how many will you be able to do a week?
0:49:20 > 0:49:23We'd be able to do 100 a week comfortably.
0:49:23 > 0:49:25So what's at the moment your limiting factor?
0:49:25 > 0:49:27Are you taking as many orders as you can?
0:49:27 > 0:49:30No. Basically, we know that we're doing well
0:49:30 > 0:49:33year-on-year in the UK market.
0:49:33 > 0:49:37But we know that there's a big market in Europe.
0:49:37 > 0:49:39To give you an idea, at any one time in the UK,
0:49:39 > 0:49:42there's over a million caravans and motor homes.
0:49:43 > 0:49:45In Europe, it's vastly superior.
0:49:45 > 0:49:48And so we want to get into Europe.
0:49:50 > 0:49:55An untapped market will often be pound signs in the eyes of an investor.
0:49:55 > 0:49:58But something looks to be troubling Hilary Devey.
0:49:59 > 0:50:02What's the shareholding of the business currently?
0:50:02 > 0:50:05- It's two to one to me.- Sorry?
0:50:05 > 0:50:08It's two to one. I only found out recently.
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Anne has two shares, I have one share.
0:50:10 > 0:50:12It was just how it was set up originally.
0:50:12 > 0:50:15- So have you got children?- Yes, we've got four children between us.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17And do they want to go into the business?
0:50:17 > 0:50:20My daughter already works for us.
0:50:20 > 0:50:24My son, he does the web accessory shop.
0:50:24 > 0:50:28What's your exit strategy, is it to bring the family into the business?
0:50:28 > 0:50:31Yes, to bring the family into the business.
0:50:31 > 0:50:35And to step back and do shows and still be involved that way.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38- So why do you want an investor? - To secure the company.
0:50:38 > 0:50:42- But an investor is going to look for an exit strategy.- Yeah.- Yes.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44And when there's family involved,
0:50:44 > 0:50:48it's very difficult to find your way through an exit strategy.
0:50:48 > 0:50:51Yeah, I think with an investor, the business would grow quicker,
0:50:51 > 0:50:53rather than at a steady pace.
0:50:53 > 0:50:56Basically, Anne's a sewing machinist
0:50:56 > 0:50:59and sewing machinist trainer,
0:50:59 > 0:51:00and I'm an old sewing machine mechanic,
0:51:00 > 0:51:04and so we've no great business knowledge.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06Yeah, but Keith, an investor could come in,
0:51:06 > 0:51:08- help to grow it quicker.- Yep.
0:51:08 > 0:51:11But how does an investor capitalise on it?
0:51:11 > 0:51:13What's his exit strategy?
0:51:13 > 0:51:16For example, if I invested 75,000 for 10%,
0:51:16 > 0:51:18and the company's valued at 750,000.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22And, in two months' time, we get an offer for double that,
0:51:22 > 0:51:24- and I say, let's sell.- Yeah.
0:51:24 > 0:51:27- Would you consider that a sensible proposal?- Oh, yeah.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30- Would you?- Oh, aye. - So you could you sell out?- Yeah.
0:51:30 > 0:51:32I think from mine and Keith's point of view,
0:51:32 > 0:51:35that there's all sorts of other things that we want to do as well.
0:51:40 > 0:51:43The couple reveal a shrewd and ambitious streak
0:51:43 > 0:51:47with their pragmatic approach to the future of their business.
0:51:47 > 0:51:49And Deborah Meaden knows this market very well.
0:51:51 > 0:51:53I think you're doing a good job.
0:51:55 > 0:51:58I think you're right to look to Europe.
0:52:00 > 0:52:03But the bit that concerned me most
0:52:03 > 0:52:08was actually investing in a family business as a minority shareholder.
0:52:08 > 0:52:11Because it does make it very, very difficult,
0:52:12 > 0:52:15if you have a very like-minded family
0:52:15 > 0:52:18who are believing very strongly one thing,
0:52:18 > 0:52:20and you can see as clear as a bell,
0:52:20 > 0:52:23through lots of experience, another thing,
0:52:23 > 0:52:26- believe me, that doesn't always work.- Yep.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29But I actually think your best route
0:52:29 > 0:52:31is to carry on doing what you're doing,
0:52:31 > 0:52:33have your plan to actually pass it on to your children,
0:52:33 > 0:52:36just grow this business. And, with what you've done already,
0:52:36 > 0:52:40I'll bet it won't take you long to crack the European market.
0:52:40 > 0:52:42But I won't be investing, so I'm out.
0:52:46 > 0:52:50The industry expert delivers a first blow for Anne and Keith.
0:52:50 > 0:52:52Has Peter Jones heard enough
0:52:52 > 0:52:55to change his mind about the proposition on offer?
0:52:56 > 0:53:00Keith, Anne, what you've done is quite incredible.
0:53:00 > 0:53:03But if I was to invest, I would probably struggle,
0:53:04 > 0:53:07in terms of level of excitement,
0:53:07 > 0:53:10and I would struggle even further with the level of excitement
0:53:10 > 0:53:13that you and I might exude working together.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15- And I'm being quite horrible and blunt.- No, it's fine.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18I always think it's best to be open. Absolutely.
0:53:18 > 0:53:21It's lovely to have met you but, unfortunately, I'm not going to invest.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24- I'm out.- OK.- Thank you.
0:53:25 > 0:53:29OK. What's been absolutely clear
0:53:29 > 0:53:31is that you've got a good business.
0:53:33 > 0:53:36- But my pound is worth more. - Absolutely.
0:53:36 > 0:53:40But it's worth more because of my experience, knowledge, contacts.
0:53:40 > 0:53:44Now, if I invest that pound in an area where I have no relevance,
0:53:44 > 0:53:48- it's worth exactly the same as everyone else's pound.- Yeah.
0:53:51 > 0:53:55I can't see a role for myself that's going to enhance your business.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00So I'm afraid I'm going to wish you the best of luck,
0:54:00 > 0:54:03- and say that I'm out. - All right. Thank you.- Thank you.
0:54:04 > 0:54:08- DUNCAN:- That was a good description of why Theo's pound is worth more.
0:54:08 > 0:54:11Is mine worth more?
0:54:11 > 0:54:14Yes, because you're involved in the leisure industry,
0:54:14 > 0:54:17and covers are not only confined to caravan covers.
0:54:17 > 0:54:21It's a main product, but we just got an order for covers
0:54:21 > 0:54:26for the London Eye X-ray machines. It's not just caravan covers.
0:54:26 > 0:54:30OK. I just want to go back over something, something you said.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34You're making 86,000 net, in the last year.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37- Was that after you took wages? - Oh, yeah.
0:54:37 > 0:54:40- You both took wages?- Yeah. - What salary did you take?
0:54:40 > 0:54:42We took 25,000 each.
0:54:55 > 0:54:57OK.
0:54:57 > 0:54:59I'm going to make you an offer.
0:55:03 > 0:55:07I'm going to offer you half the money, which is 37,500, as we all know.
0:55:07 > 0:55:08But I want...
0:55:10 > 0:55:12I want...
0:55:16 > 0:55:18..16% of the company.
0:55:22 > 0:55:26At last, the low-key husband and wife team get an offer.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29But for only half the cash they need.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32Strict den rules state they must receive the full amount,
0:55:32 > 0:55:37or they leave with nothing. And only Hilary Devey remains.
0:55:40 > 0:55:44Are you prepared to separate your children from the business?
0:55:44 > 0:55:48- Yeah.- Because I think they're two separate entities
0:55:48 > 0:55:49and you should keep them apart.
0:55:49 > 0:55:51Business is business and family is family.
0:55:51 > 0:55:54I mean, we have had this discussion.
0:55:54 > 0:55:57Whatever we want to do with the company, then that's fine.
0:56:05 > 0:56:07DUNCAN: So are you going to make an offer, Hilary?
0:56:07 > 0:56:09For all of it or half of it?
0:56:12 > 0:56:15- HILARY:- I think I could help you get this into Europe.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17And it does excite me.
0:56:17 > 0:56:19I know they'll think I'm crazy.
0:56:19 > 0:56:21So I will match that offer.
0:56:25 > 0:56:27What?
0:56:28 > 0:56:30No?
0:56:31 > 0:56:35No. We don't even have to go to the back of the room and discuss that.
0:56:36 > 0:56:40- So what is the maximum you'll go to on percentage?- 20.
0:56:44 > 0:56:4520%?
0:56:48 > 0:56:50Would you go for 26%?
0:56:52 > 0:56:57- But between you or each? - All the money for 26%.
0:56:59 > 0:57:03- Yeah, did you make an offer?- 26%.
0:57:03 > 0:57:05- For you?- For you and I.
0:57:05 > 0:57:09You can't make an offer on my behalf. Should I go home and leave you all to it?
0:57:14 > 0:57:16OK, I'll tell you what.
0:57:16 > 0:57:20I think Hilary and I are offering you all the money for 26%.
0:57:20 > 0:57:22- Is that right, Hilary?- Yeah.
0:57:25 > 0:57:28- Are you happy with that?- Yes.
0:57:28 > 0:57:30- You will.- Yeah.- You will? We will.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32- Thank you, we accept.- We accept.
0:57:32 > 0:57:34DUNCAN AND HILARY: Wey!
0:57:34 > 0:57:36- PETER:- Well done.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38- Anne and Keith have done it. - Well done.- Well done.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40- I look forward to working with you. - And you, as well.
0:57:40 > 0:57:44It was a somewhat comical conclusion to a serious business decision,
0:57:44 > 0:57:49but they're now in business with two powerful multimillionaire partners.
0:57:59 > 0:58:02That was one of those cases where the numbers did the talking.
0:58:02 > 0:58:06Peter Jones may have had an obvious lack of excitement at the product,
0:58:06 > 0:58:08but all the Dragons agreed
0:58:08 > 0:58:12that Keith and Anne's profits were far from dull.
0:58:12 > 0:58:15Having set their sights on European expansion,
0:58:15 > 0:58:18now all they have to do is demonstrate their UK success
0:58:18 > 0:58:21can go the distance.
0:58:21 > 0:58:24For more insight from Hilary Devey and Duncan Bannatyne
0:58:24 > 0:58:27on why they chose to invest in Anne and Keith's business,
0:58:27 > 0:58:29and how they see it progressing,
0:58:29 > 0:58:32press the red button now. Good bye.
0:58:33 > 0:58:35Next week, in the den.
0:58:35 > 0:58:36SHOUTING
0:58:36 > 0:58:39I've opened a bit of a can of worms there I wasn't expecting to open.
0:58:39 > 0:58:43That wasn't what you pitched. Theo's just given you an out.
0:58:43 > 0:58:45CLUNKING
0:58:45 > 0:58:47I would not have signed that.
0:58:47 > 0:58:49I've never seen anyone so excited about a glove.
0:58:49 > 0:58:52It's a bit like buying the emperor's new clothes.
0:58:52 > 0:58:55I'm not happy with this. Let's crush them like worms.
0:59:20 > 0:59:21Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd