0:00:27 > 0:00:29These are the Dragons.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Wealthy,
0:00:31 > 0:00:33well-connected,
0:00:33 > 0:00:34innovative,
0:00:34 > 0:00:36and influential.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Each week, they make or break the dreams
0:00:39 > 0:00:42of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46I have some experience in getting this to market,
0:00:46 > 0:00:48so I'm going to make you an offer.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51I'm going to make you an offer as well.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54- You're doing quite well today. - I'll match your offer.
0:00:55 > 0:00:57I'll match your offer, Piers.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00I think it's worth more.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05So I'm going to offer you all the money...
0:01:05 > 0:01:07I think it could... it could be big...
0:01:08 > 0:01:10..so, I'm going to make you an offer.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden...
0:01:19 > 0:01:22..telecoms giant Peter Jones...
0:01:23 > 0:01:27..and hotel and health-club owner Duncan Bannatyne...
0:01:27 > 0:01:29have, between them, struck deals worth more than
0:01:29 > 0:01:31£7 million in the Den.
0:01:33 > 0:01:37But ready to fight for the next shrewd investment is the creator of
0:01:37 > 0:01:42her own world-renowned interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen,
0:01:42 > 0:01:45and cloud computing pioneer Piers Linney.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51The multimillionaires will give each entrepreneur just three minutes
0:01:51 > 0:01:54to pitch their idea and then interrogate them
0:01:54 > 0:01:57on every aspect of their business.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59To face them takes nerve and vision
0:01:59 > 0:02:02so who will leave with the Dragons' money?
0:02:10 > 0:02:14Welcome to Dragons' Den, where promising entrepreneurs pitch
0:02:14 > 0:02:18to five multimillionaire investors, hoping to get the cash they need
0:02:18 > 0:02:21to realise their business ambitions.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Now, discovered almost by accident, the Post-it note is surely
0:02:25 > 0:02:28one of the most successful stationery products ever,
0:02:28 > 0:02:31and our first entrepreneur, John MacLeod,
0:02:31 > 0:02:34thinks he's come up with the next step in its evolution.
0:02:46 > 0:02:47LIFT BELL CHIMES
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Hello, Dragons, my name is John MacLeod,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06I'm a director in LUX Creations Ltd
0:03:06 > 0:03:09and today we're looking for a £50,000 investment
0:03:09 > 0:03:11in return for 10% equity in our company.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14Lux Creations is a design company
0:03:14 > 0:03:17and our first product range are the revolutionary Clear Notes.
0:03:18 > 0:03:19Clear Notes are the world's only
0:03:19 > 0:03:22transparent and reusable adhesive sticky note.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Clear Notes allow you to make annotations and drawings
0:03:25 > 0:03:27over any document or hard surface where
0:03:27 > 0:03:29you need to see the information below the note.
0:03:29 > 0:03:31With our specially designed ink,
0:03:31 > 0:03:32we have pens where the ink is quick drying
0:03:32 > 0:03:35and will not erase by your hand or when you put it between some files.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39However, using our specially designed pens and attached erasers,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42they can be removed so the note can be reused time and time again.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44We've officially launched early this year, in February,
0:03:44 > 0:03:47since then we've gone on to acquire a contract with the largest
0:03:47 > 0:03:49contract stationer in the UK.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52Uh, they turn over approximately £230 million and have contracts for
0:03:52 > 0:03:57the likes of the government, the NHS, um, and also the high street banks.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59That has also led to a deal with one of the biggest buying groups
0:03:59 > 0:04:02in the UK, um, and earlier this week,
0:04:02 > 0:04:04we exhibited at the London Stationery Show to which
0:04:04 > 0:04:07we received a fantastic response for our product. From the show,
0:04:07 > 0:04:09we've had lots of international enquiries,
0:04:09 > 0:04:11so we have contacts to follow up with
0:04:11 > 0:04:16distributors in North America, Central Europe and South Africa.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Thank you for your time and I'd like to invite any questions.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26An accomplished pitch from this 23-year-old entrepreneur.
0:04:26 > 0:04:32John is looking for £50,000 for 10% of his new stationery product
0:04:32 > 0:04:37business, but Deborah Meaden has disappointing news from the outset.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39John, I need to declare, um,
0:04:39 > 0:04:41this is going to be quite an awkward one for me
0:04:41 > 0:04:45- because I'm invested in a business that I think would conflict...- Yep.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47- ..um, with this and specifically with this product...- OK.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51- ..so, I won't be able to invest.- No, I understand who that company is.- OK.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53- Thanks very much.- I'm out.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57What business is that, Deborah?
0:04:57 > 0:05:01A magic whiteboard that... I need to tell you this so that you don't
0:05:01 > 0:05:05- later think that we are...that I'm copying, but we're...- No.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08..we're producing a very similar product.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12John. I'm... I'm intrigued.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15I do know Magic Whiteboard and Deborah's investment,
0:05:15 > 0:05:17cos it came from the Den.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19Hmm.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21I also know, because I spend time with Deborah and Theo
0:05:21 > 0:05:24a little bit, that it's highly successful.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26- Yeah. - So, I'm kind of thinking here...
0:05:27 > 0:05:31..have you got something that is better than, potentially,
0:05:31 > 0:05:33something that Deborah has got...
0:05:33 > 0:05:34up her sleeve.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38Do you have any...?
0:05:38 > 0:05:41This isn't a product that can...
0:05:41 > 0:05:44You can't take any level of protection over this at all,
0:05:44 > 0:05:49- can you?- We have a patent pending on the product in Britain
0:05:49 > 0:05:52and we have a trademark on the logo as well, so...
0:05:52 > 0:05:54And what's the patent pending based upon?
0:05:54 > 0:05:58Um, it's the use of the adhesive on this type of... Well,
0:05:58 > 0:06:01there's certain types of plastics that can be used for this product,
0:06:01 > 0:06:03so they act the same way with the ink
0:06:03 > 0:06:05and the adhesive adheres in the correct way.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09Um, so nobody else could recreate that Britain.
0:06:09 > 0:06:11And one great thing about the Post-it note is not just
0:06:11 > 0:06:15the convenience factor, but also it's the fact that it's recyclable.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19- That's right, yeah.- Where do you stand with that, with your...?
0:06:19 > 0:06:22- This product is 100% recyclable as well.- It is?- Yeah.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27- I think it's really good, John. - Thanks, Peter. I appreciate that.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36On the surface, it seems the entrepreneur's off to a flying start.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40But the Dragons are practised at getting beneath the surface
0:06:40 > 0:06:41of a business plan.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45Who's the large company that's bought product from you?
0:06:45 > 0:06:47It's one of the biggest contract stationers,
0:06:47 > 0:06:50it's office2office. They kind of lead into other buying groups as well,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52so that's the deal that we've acquired to date.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Like I said, there's lots of leads from the stationery shows
0:06:55 > 0:06:57- to be following up with. - So, how many have you sold?
0:06:57 > 0:07:01Uh, well, I mean, that deal, the only deal that we've had to date,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04uh, approximately worth £50,000 to £100,000 over the next 12 months.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07But how many have they actually bought or committed to buy?
0:07:07 > 0:07:11Erm, they'll place their first order in November with the 2014 catalogue.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14So, they haven't place an order yet?
0:07:14 > 0:07:16They've put us in the catalogue, that's basically it, yeah.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20What do you mean, "put you in the catalogue?" The catalogue's out now?
0:07:20 > 0:07:22For the 2014 catalogue, it gets produced in November.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25I think it gets 18,000 distributed to different dealers.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27So, it's not in the catalogue?
0:07:27 > 0:07:29Not this year, no. Next year's.
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Have they given you a guarantee of being in the catalogue?
0:07:31 > 0:07:35In essence, yes, I mean, I've got sort of a letter that explains
0:07:35 > 0:07:37that and we've just had to do some paperwork, so...
0:07:37 > 0:07:39- Let's look at the letter then. - Sure, yeah.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Thanks very much. If you just talk to the other Dragons...
0:07:46 > 0:07:48- OK, thank you.- ..and I'll read through it.
0:07:50 > 0:07:55John, um, I've just managed to wipe off the ink with my finger on this.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57If you write that down, give it five seconds,
0:07:57 > 0:08:00- and then try and wipe it off, it won't come off.- I did.
0:08:01 > 0:08:03Look.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05It just comes off if you wipe it.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08Oh, yeah, but if you didn't lick your finger, maybe... I'm not sure.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10- You're wetting it?- Yeah, but...
0:08:12 > 0:08:16- OK, John, let me tell you where I am.- OK.- And when you said you had...
0:08:16 > 0:08:19they were putting you in the catalogue 2014...
0:08:19 > 0:08:21- That's right, yeah. - That's not what this says.- OK.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25"Your company's been selected for inclusion in our catalogue's
0:08:25 > 0:08:28- "selection process..."- Mm-hm. - That doesn't mean
0:08:28 > 0:08:30you'll go in the catalogue, that means
0:08:30 > 0:08:32you can go through the selection process.
0:08:32 > 0:08:33And you might make it in.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36But, at the moment, you're not in the catalogue
0:08:36 > 0:08:39- and, at the trade show you said you got a fantastic response...- Yeah.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42..you didn't get any orders. You haven't got an order.
0:08:43 > 0:08:48Because of these things, it's such a very, very early-stage investment.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51Um, I don't know... I don't have enough confidence to
0:08:51 > 0:08:54believe that this is going to sell.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57- And, so, for that reason, I've got to say that I'm out.- OK.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03A dramatic change of fortunes for the young entrepreneur
0:09:03 > 0:09:04as the first Dragon bows out.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09But will the rest of the Den be unnerved by the revelation
0:09:09 > 0:09:11uncovered by Duncan Bannatyne?
0:09:14 > 0:09:17I think, if you'd presented this at a fair,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19you'd have a really good indication if this was going to sell.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22People would have ordered from it. Um...
0:09:22 > 0:09:25I'm just... It's not something that I feel confident in,
0:09:25 > 0:09:30that I want to invest in, although half of me really likes it.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33- Um, so I'm out, but good luck.- Thank you, Kelly. I really appreciate that.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39So, let's go through very carefully, what you've protected.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42Basically, the adhesive. We've had to spend a lot of time developing
0:09:42 > 0:09:45and going through ones that were too strong, they were peeling off
0:09:45 > 0:09:48the paper, too weak, falling on the floor, if you put them
0:09:48 > 0:09:51on this board. So, once we'd got the right type of adhesive that went
0:09:51 > 0:09:53alongside that plastic that's sort of recyclable,
0:09:53 > 0:09:56that's essentially what that patent is on that, so you couldn't use
0:09:56 > 0:09:58that adhesive on those types of plastics.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00You couldn't use YOUR adhesive,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04or could somebody use a different adhesive on clear plastic?
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Yeah, so, in essence, if it wasn't the type of plastic that's
0:10:07 > 0:10:09recyclable, they could do, yes.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12I'm not convinced by the protectability of it, to the extent
0:10:12 > 0:10:14which you can protect this...
0:10:14 > 0:10:16- Hmm.- ..cos there are too many moving parts
0:10:16 > 0:10:19and I think somebody could come along and change something,
0:10:19 > 0:10:22the kind of plastic, the adhesive, I don't know.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25Good luck with it, but I'm not going to invest. I'm out.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34Peter Jones is the last Dragon remaining.
0:10:34 > 0:10:39Will his initial enthusiasm for Clear Notes now turn into cash?
0:10:41 > 0:10:45I do think what you've presented is a lot better than I expected
0:10:45 > 0:10:48when you unveiled the map of whatever it is there.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50Um...
0:10:50 > 0:10:52I had no idea what you were going to present, and then,
0:10:52 > 0:10:54when you presented this, I kind of get it.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02I'm pretty sure people will buy this.
0:11:02 > 0:11:07Um, but I'm not overly convinced about investing in a business
0:11:07 > 0:11:10that you're valuing at half a million pounds at this stage
0:11:10 > 0:11:13and 50K is quite a lot to take a real punt on it.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17So, I'm not going to invest, John...
0:11:17 > 0:11:20because I just think that there would be other products out there
0:11:20 > 0:11:22that will compete with this...
0:11:23 > 0:11:26..that might do the same thing.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28So, I'm going to say I'm out.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30But I congratulate you on everything you've done.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33I think you've presented a product really well and you've got
0:11:33 > 0:11:35- something here that could be great. - OK.
0:11:35 > 0:11:37- I appreciate that.- So, I hope I don't live to regret it.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41- OK, thank you for your time. I appreciate it.- Good luck, John.
0:11:44 > 0:11:48A near miss for John as he heads out without the £50,000 needed
0:11:48 > 0:11:51to help grow his start-up stationery business.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56I hope that's not the one that gets away.
0:11:56 > 0:11:58It won't be. Trust me.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04If Clear Notes was overvalued,
0:12:04 > 0:12:07it was hardly the first in the Den in that category.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10- Others have been given short shrift by the Dragons.- It's just a toy.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13- It's just a toy.- It's just that you're valuing at a million pounds.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15I was going to make you an offer,
0:12:15 > 0:12:17but I'm afraid your valuation's killed it.
0:12:17 > 0:12:21This doesn't give me a good enough return to invest £500,000
0:12:21 > 0:12:23and, for that reason, I'm out.
0:12:23 > 0:12:24ALPACA SNORTS
0:12:24 > 0:12:29Our next entrepreneurs also had an ambitious valuation.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31- How cute!- Hello!
0:12:31 > 0:12:36- My name is Tracy Birch. - And I am Kari-Helene Rane.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39We're here today to ask for £125,000 investment for 25% equity
0:12:39 > 0:12:43- in our business.- We are a field to fashion design house.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46Our fibre is sourced locally and some from our own herd.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49Keri-Helene creates our exclusive designs
0:12:49 > 0:12:52and we sell knitting kits, patterns and yarn.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57And if Tracy and Keri-Helene wanted to pull the wool over
0:12:57 > 0:12:59the Dragons' eyes...
0:12:59 > 0:13:01You're very good, aren't you?
0:13:01 > 0:13:05- They had a trick up their sleeve. - Amazingly soft.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07Hi, Alfie.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12The alpacas might have softened up Peter Jones, but he was still
0:13:12 > 0:13:16bemused that such a business still exists in the 21st century.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18I mean, this is going back almost 50 years in time.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21It's like coming into Dragons' Den in 1958.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23But you do realise it's 2013?
0:13:23 > 0:13:25Yes.
0:13:25 > 0:13:29In fact, it was the future the entrepreneurs were concerned with.
0:13:29 > 0:13:31Our business has reached a plateau.
0:13:31 > 0:13:36We now want to make hand-knitted, British alpaca wedding dresses.
0:13:36 > 0:13:39Wedding dresses in a wool would be for winter,
0:13:39 > 0:13:43so you're cutting down a massive point at which people get married,
0:13:43 > 0:13:46which is normally in the summer months, so I don't kind of get it.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51Kelly wasn't the only Dragon who thought there were issues
0:13:51 > 0:13:52with the product.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54Can I just ask what happens to it when it gets wet?
0:13:54 > 0:13:57The water almost forms droplets. You just sort of shake it.
0:13:57 > 0:13:58No, but if you're wearing it.
0:13:58 > 0:14:03I mean, wool wet, A, smells, and, B, gets incredibly heavy.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05Not a look for a bride on their wedding day!
0:14:05 > 0:14:07Do you mind if I put some water on that or would you...?
0:14:07 > 0:14:09- Please do, go for it. - It doesn't ruin it?- No.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12It's my wedding day!
0:14:12 > 0:14:14THEY LAUGH
0:14:14 > 0:14:16It's soaking wet, but it does brush off.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18I didn't doubt you for a minute.
0:14:18 > 0:14:19THEY LAUGH
0:14:19 > 0:14:23But were their sales figures as watertight as their dresses?
0:14:23 > 0:14:24What were your costs?
0:14:24 > 0:14:28Last year we made a loss of £1,751,
0:14:28 > 0:14:32but this year we're ready to make a profit of £6,000.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35- And you value the company at £600,000?- Yes.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39You're valuing your company at about 100 times this year's profits.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41- Can I just justify why we did that? - I'd love you to.
0:14:42 > 0:14:45Unfortunately for Tracy and Keri-Helene,
0:14:45 > 0:14:47their animal magic didn't pay off.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51I love the alpacas, I love the colours, they're very me,
0:14:51 > 0:14:53but it's just not something that I would invest in.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57If you hadn't had the shield of those lovely brown-eyed alpacas,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00you might have felt a little bit more tension coming from me,
0:15:00 > 0:15:05cos to come in here and ask for £125,000, that was racy.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07I'm going to tell you where I'm at and that's out.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16Our next entrepreneurs think they've found the solution to
0:15:16 > 0:15:18a well-known parenting problem -
0:15:18 > 0:15:21babies putting things in their mouths and Mum and Dad
0:15:21 > 0:15:24looking for something clean and safe for their little ones to chew on.
0:15:27 > 0:15:28But will their invention soothe or
0:15:28 > 0:15:31simply cause tantrums amongst the Dragons?
0:15:36 > 0:15:40Hi, I'm Julie and this is Amy, and we're from Cheeky Chompers.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45We're here today to look for £70,000 investment for 10% equity
0:15:45 > 0:15:47in our company.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50Cheeky Chompers... Cheeky Chompers launched our first product,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53the Neckerchew, 11 weeks ago.
0:15:53 > 0:15:58The Neckerchew is the world's first chewy dribble bib for teething tots.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02No longer do we need to pick up, retrieve
0:16:02 > 0:16:05and re-sanitise dropped teethers because this one's attached.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08The initial idea came out of necessity when Julie and I
0:16:08 > 0:16:10had our babies and we'd spend half our time picking up
0:16:10 > 0:16:13and retrieving dropped and then dirty teethers.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16So, it was the simplicity in our initial idea that was so appealing.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19Why not create a teether that stays attached to the baby?
0:16:19 > 0:16:22This is a great investment for the Dragons because it's
0:16:22 > 0:16:25a brand-new product combining two already popular baby products
0:16:25 > 0:16:29together into one special offer to fill a gap in the market.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32In the first 11 weeks, we've sold 1,800 bibs, um,
0:16:32 > 0:16:35we have signed up 14 independent retailers
0:16:35 > 0:16:39and we've also signed up eight national UK retailers.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42Um, we have one distributor already lined up
0:16:42 > 0:16:44and we're in discussions with others in different countries.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47So, it's been a fantastic start in our first 11 weeks.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Thank you for listening and we look forward to taking some questions.
0:16:55 > 0:16:59A persuasive pitch from this Edinburgh-based pair.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02They're looking for £70,000 for a 10% stake
0:17:02 > 0:17:04of their dribble bib business.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09But Piers Linney is curious as to why the entrepreneurs have
0:17:09 > 0:17:11valued their start-up so highly.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15So, you say it was made from necessity,
0:17:15 > 0:17:18it was something that you couldn't have lived without,
0:17:18 > 0:17:22so I've got two children and we've lived without it so far.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24So, the question is, is it a business?
0:17:24 > 0:17:29And also, is it a business worth, you know, £700,000 post-investment?
0:17:30 > 0:17:35Our projections are that we turn over £147,000 in year one.
0:17:35 > 0:17:39£250,000 in year two and £375,000 in year three.
0:17:39 > 0:17:42If you make those figures, I'll eat 100 of your teethers and bibs.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44- Fantastic!- Without salt.
0:17:46 > 0:17:47Would you pay for them?
0:17:47 > 0:17:50You won't need me to pay for them, because you've made a fortune.
0:17:50 > 0:17:52It's absolutely crazy...
0:17:52 > 0:17:54to think that you could make that sort of money.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58Sorry, but our projections are based on the sales that we've
0:17:58 > 0:18:00already had and we've only been trading for 11 weeks.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03You're valuing your business...
0:18:03 > 0:18:06against a three-year forecast...
0:18:06 > 0:18:11and you're valuing it in three years' time at two times revenue.
0:18:12 > 0:18:17- You're delusional.- We've had some fantastic big orders this week,
0:18:17 > 0:18:18which we felt really reflected the...
0:18:18 > 0:18:22It doesn't matter. Your business is, today...
0:18:22 > 0:18:25potentially not even worth £100,000.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28We've been trading for 11 weeks.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31We've had to take what's happened to us within this 11 weeks
0:18:31 > 0:18:34and the future orders that we've now got on the books...
0:18:34 > 0:18:36Yeah, but to encourage somebody to invest in your business,
0:18:36 > 0:18:40you can't say that you're going to get the value that I'm asking
0:18:40 > 0:18:43you to invest in today, but you'll get that value back in three years
0:18:43 > 0:18:44if we're mega successful.
0:18:44 > 0:18:48I think our projections were quite conservative though, Peter,
0:18:48 > 0:18:50given what's happening to us at the moment.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52I mean, literally every day we're getting so much more...
0:18:52 > 0:18:54But your projections are about as useful
0:18:54 > 0:18:56as a ladder for a carpet fitter.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58The response from parents and things has been phenomenal.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02You should see... Every day we must get 20 photographs of babies chewing,
0:19:02 > 0:19:04so, I think, for us, that feeling of...
0:19:04 > 0:19:07Every day, Julie, we've got people coming in here saying,
0:19:07 > 0:19:10- "The response from my customers has been fantastic."- I know, I know.
0:19:10 > 0:19:11"People want it, everybody wants it.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15- "I can't sell enough, I can't make enough."- But not many people in
0:19:15 > 0:19:1811 weeks have kind of come to where we've come with more on the cards.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21- Everybody that comes in here has. - I'm sure they say that.
0:19:21 > 0:19:22Everybody that comes here has.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Duncan Bannatyne and Peter Jones are far from impressed at
0:19:31 > 0:19:34Julie and Amy's unswerving optimism.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36But, to make matters worse,
0:19:36 > 0:19:40Deborah Meaden wants to drill down further into the issue of sales.
0:19:42 > 0:19:43- Can we talk about orders?- Sure.
0:19:43 > 0:19:47If you've actually got orders from these companies,
0:19:47 > 0:19:51I mean, that might be the answer, so how about you take the veil away
0:19:51 > 0:19:57and tell us who and the size of those orders, what those deals are.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01Right, well, at the moment we've got, erm, eight national retailers.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05So, the first one is Bentalls, Fenwicks, we have,
0:20:05 > 0:20:09- um, John Lewis, Waitrose... - Jojo Maman Bebe...
0:20:09 > 0:20:12All who think that this premium product has a real market and...
0:20:12 > 0:20:17- But Deborah's question was unveil the cost, the orders.- The value.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20So, the three orders that have just come in, because we are new,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23we're being set up, so John Lewis said that we had to supply
0:20:23 > 0:20:25through a wholesaler, which we don't...
0:20:25 > 0:20:27Ladies, just give us the value of the orders, cos...
0:20:27 > 0:20:30- With John Lewis, we don't know... - So, there's not an order?
0:20:30 > 0:20:34- They're setting us up as a supplier. - OK, girls, that is very different.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37By July, she wants us to be in all the stores by July.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40That is very different. Have you got any orders?
0:20:42 > 0:20:45No, we only have confirmation from her that she's going to place
0:20:45 > 0:20:48- an order in that she will set us up...- That was a little bit...
0:20:48 > 0:20:50We've got orders from Jojo Maman Bebe,
0:20:50 > 0:20:52we have 250 each of two lines...
0:20:52 > 0:20:54What's the total value of your orders?
0:20:55 > 0:20:57Well, it's difficult to tell cos we're, at the moment...
0:20:57 > 0:20:59You've only got one order by the sound of it.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02No, we've got Fenwicks and Bentalls, which were delivered.
0:21:02 > 0:21:04Well, then, say.
0:21:04 > 0:21:05The one order that we...
0:21:05 > 0:21:08We have those orders in Fenwicks and Bentalls and Jojo, but the one order
0:21:08 > 0:21:13we have is from a distributor and that for 3,600 pieces for Benelux,
0:21:13 > 0:21:16so that's a significant order which comes to about £17,000.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20- So, that's an order... - This is important stuff, girls.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23If, if, if we hadn't dragged it out of you, you'd have been going,
0:21:23 > 0:21:27"Yeah, but my company's worth a fortune!" You know?
0:21:27 > 0:21:30- So, that's an order. So, you've got an order...- Yes.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33..for £17,000 to a distributor. That's quite important.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41A breakthrough for the Edinburgh duo as they finally start to
0:21:41 > 0:21:44justify their company's valuation.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48So, will that be enough to persuade any of the Dragons
0:21:48 > 0:21:49to part with their cash?
0:21:52 > 0:21:53You know, at the end of the day,
0:21:53 > 0:21:56you've got some very good orders there.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59Um, my advice to you is this could plateau,
0:21:59 > 0:22:02you want to get out new designs constantly,
0:22:02 > 0:22:05so that you're refreshing it and so that John Lewis, you know,
0:22:05 > 0:22:08continually want to take orders and get them to put it
0:22:08 > 0:22:12online for you, because you will double your sales with John Lewis.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Build your brand, spend a bit of money on PR, but you'll do it
0:22:16 > 0:22:22on your own, so, I wish you luck, um, but I'm afraid I'm out.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26Julie, Amy, I'm, um... I like it.
0:22:26 > 0:22:30I'd buy one, I'd probably buy three, cos I think you need three and
0:22:30 > 0:22:33you'd probably buy them for friends as presents if they had children.
0:22:33 > 0:22:38Um...I just don't think it's an investment...
0:22:38 > 0:22:40at all. So, I'm out.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48Despite warm words of encouragement, Kelly Hoppen and Piers Linney
0:22:48 > 0:22:50walk away from a deal.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55But has Julie and Amy's healthy order book dealt with
0:22:55 > 0:22:57the remaining Dragons' concerns?
0:22:57 > 0:23:01I think you've done incredibly well. I love the name Cheeky Chompers.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04I think you've done a really good job with the branding
0:23:04 > 0:23:07and you've done extremely well to get it into the retailers
0:23:07 > 0:23:10and I can see the retailers stocking this product...
0:23:10 > 0:23:15and there's no question in my mind that people will buy this product.
0:23:18 > 0:23:22My only reason for not wanting to give you an offer is purely
0:23:22 > 0:23:28predicated on, I wouldn't offer you £70,000 for a third of the business.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31So, that's the only reason why I am going to say I'm out.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34- Right.- But not because I don't think that you've created something that
0:23:34 > 0:23:37- I believe people will buy. - OK.- And I say good luck to you.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41I like it and I think you've done well,
0:23:41 > 0:23:42I really do think you've done well.
0:23:42 > 0:23:45I don't actually think at the beginning you really
0:23:45 > 0:23:48presented the opportunity very well, which, for an investor, yes,
0:23:48 > 0:23:51we can see it's a lovely product, but how are we going to invest?
0:23:51 > 0:23:55But I actually completely agree with Peter.
0:23:55 > 0:23:56It's overvalued.
0:23:57 > 0:24:03- OK.- So, you haven't really given me a place to make an offer to you.
0:24:03 > 0:24:06- So I'm afraid I'm out. - Thank you, Deborah.
0:24:11 > 0:24:12Four Dragons out.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16Only Duncan Bannatyne is yet to declare and he was
0:24:16 > 0:24:20sceptical of Julie and Amy's projections of future turnover.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24So...
0:24:24 > 0:24:27- How do you think it's gone so far? - THEY LAUGH
0:24:27 > 0:24:29It's been a learning curve.
0:24:29 > 0:24:31It has, the whole thing's been a learning curve.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34We're disappointed, I guess, so far. Um...
0:24:34 > 0:24:35What do you think the reaction has been?
0:24:35 > 0:24:38- It's been really constructive, actually, really constructive.- Yeah.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40- It has.- It's like night and day, isn't it?
0:24:40 > 0:24:43I was giving you a bit of a tough time with the numbers.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46But everybody likes the product, everybody likes you,
0:24:46 > 0:24:48but we just can't get the money.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50I've been calculating it, you know,
0:24:50 > 0:24:52I'd need about 45% of the company, I think, if I was
0:24:52 > 0:24:56investing £70,000 and I don't think that would be right for you.
0:24:57 > 0:24:58But I can't invest at these levels,
0:24:58 > 0:25:00and so, I'm sorry, but I've got to say I'm out.
0:25:00 > 0:25:02- OK, thank you.- Thank you.
0:25:04 > 0:25:08- Thank you.- Thanks a lot anyway. Cheers.
0:25:08 > 0:25:12A disappointed Julie and Amy go home without investment,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14having failed to persuade the Dragons
0:25:14 > 0:25:16they could get the numbers to work.
0:25:21 > 0:25:22- What a shame.- Hmm.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31- Tonight in the Den... - How do you think it's gone so far?
0:25:31 > 0:25:35- ..there have been some stretched valuations...- You're delusional.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38- ..but no investments.- So, I'm afraid I'm out.- Still to come...
0:25:38 > 0:25:41I don't know how much background you've got in terms of websites...
0:25:41 > 0:25:44Well, if you don't know, then you should be embarrassed.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47And as one of the toughest negotiators steps into the Den...
0:25:47 > 0:25:49I can't give away 40% of my business.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52I came in here saying I'd give away a maximum of 25%.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55..the Dragons squabble for an entrepreneur's attention.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57Mate, a lot of it's going to be like open doors...
0:25:57 > 0:25:59He needs the most valuable thing that we have got,
0:25:59 > 0:26:02which is those doors and the route to market.
0:26:02 > 0:26:05So will we finally see a deal sealed?
0:26:11 > 0:26:14Price comparison sites are part of the furniture of the internet
0:26:14 > 0:26:17these days and certainly dominate the ad breaks.
0:26:17 > 0:26:21And our next pair of entrepreneurs want to extend the concept
0:26:21 > 0:26:23to the world of cosmetic treatment.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46- Hi, Dragons. My name's Ganesh and I'm a doctor.- Hi, Dragons.
0:26:46 > 0:26:51- My name's Tim and I'm an optician. - Together we run TreatmentSaver.com.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54We're here today asking for £100,000 investment
0:26:54 > 0:26:56for a 20% stake in our business.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59Treatment Saver is a website where people can compare clinics,
0:26:59 > 0:27:02book their appointments online and save money,
0:27:02 > 0:27:05and, best of all, it's free.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08We're currently the only site in the UK to offer this unique service,
0:27:08 > 0:27:11with 200 people a month booking their laser eye surgery
0:27:11 > 0:27:13and cosmetic consultations through us.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16So, we initially launched online appointment booking for
0:27:16 > 0:27:18laser eye surgery last year
0:27:18 > 0:27:20and we're already in partnership with the three biggest chains
0:27:20 > 0:27:24in the field and we honestly believe our medical backgrounds gave us
0:27:24 > 0:27:28a huge advantage in establishing these relationships with
0:27:28 > 0:27:31the clinics because we understand things from both a commercial
0:27:31 > 0:27:34but also a clinical point of view.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37Dragons, we need your help to realise our dream of becoming
0:27:37 > 0:27:40- the Expedia for clinics. - So, that's our pitch, guys.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42Thanks for listening and, obviously, as usual,
0:27:42 > 0:27:44we do welcome any questions.
0:27:47 > 0:27:51An assertive pitch from these two medical entrepreneurs.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55They're asking for £100,000 for a 20% stake in their
0:27:55 > 0:27:56one-stop treatment shop.
0:27:58 > 0:28:01Internet ideas get mixed reviews in the Den
0:28:01 > 0:28:04and Deborah Meaden is keen to get to the bottom of their business model.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10You say you're booking 200 of these a...?
0:28:10 > 0:28:12- Month.- Month. - OK, a month at the moment.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14OK, so how many treatment centres
0:28:14 > 0:28:16have you got loaded up onto this already?
0:28:16 > 0:28:18We've got...
0:28:18 > 0:28:20close to probably 500 branches.
0:28:20 > 0:28:23- 500 treatment centres. - And what's your revenue model?
0:28:23 > 0:28:25How do you actually make money out of it?
0:28:25 > 0:28:29When somebody books an appointment on our site, we get paid.
0:28:29 > 0:28:30How much money are you making?
0:28:30 > 0:28:34Uh, last year we made, just up to March, the end of the year,
0:28:34 > 0:28:40we made 65,000 in sales. Um, with a £25,000 net profit.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43- So, you'd no expenses?- We've got very little expenses.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47One of the reasons is that the traffic is free, we don't pay for it,
0:28:47 > 0:28:50- cos it's organic.- Signing people up relies on how much traffic
0:28:50 > 0:28:52- you can drive to your site, doesn't it?- Yeah.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Cos if you can't get traffic, they don't get customers,
0:28:55 > 0:28:57so let's talk through those numbers.
0:28:57 > 0:28:58How many eyeballs have seen that site?
0:28:58 > 0:29:01We currently get 25,000 visitors per month
0:29:01 > 0:29:04and that's just all organic, free traffic at the moment.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06- PETER JONES:- I'd say 25,000 is tiny.
0:29:08 > 0:29:1225,000 a month. I mean, I launch a website, we get that in a day.
0:29:13 > 0:29:14Yeah...
0:29:18 > 0:29:22A reality check from Peter Jones on the numbers needed to make
0:29:22 > 0:29:24a website really pack a punch.
0:29:25 > 0:29:29Now, Piers Linney wants to discover how
0:29:29 > 0:29:33they plan to attract those all-important customers.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35So, this is a very simple business and, basically,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38- you're a price comparison website... - Yeah.- ..simplistically.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41And we all know how much cash they spend on advertising,
0:29:41 > 0:29:42so, this is about eyeballs.
0:29:42 > 0:29:44The question for you is...
0:29:44 > 0:29:46how do you get eyeballs there?
0:29:46 > 0:29:49And the way you get eyeballs there is through marketing.
0:29:49 > 0:29:50Yeah, absolutely.
0:29:50 > 0:29:56So, yeah, are you going to be able to do that with, you know, £100,000?
0:29:57 > 0:29:59I don't think it's just money, I think it's, you know,
0:29:59 > 0:30:02maybe your skills, I don't know how much background you've got
0:30:02 > 0:30:05in terms of websites, but I'm sure there's members of your team...
0:30:05 > 0:30:08- PETER JONES:- If you don't know, then you should be embarrassed...
0:30:10 > 0:30:12..cos if I come in and pitch to somebody,
0:30:12 > 0:30:14I want to make sure who I'm pitching to.
0:30:14 > 0:30:16Yeah, sorry, sorry.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19- PIERS LINNEY:- The one thing I notice about your website is,
0:30:19 > 0:30:22you seem to have forgotten the brand.
0:30:22 > 0:30:24See, you've got a name, but you don't see a brand.
0:30:24 > 0:30:28That's a very generic, consumer-facing website.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31If you look at the design of some of our competitors' sites,
0:30:31 > 0:30:34we're ten times better designed than some of those sites.
0:30:34 > 0:30:36That's a terrible answer.
0:30:37 > 0:30:40- Sorry.- That is a terrible answer!
0:30:40 > 0:30:41I think the point is...
0:30:41 > 0:30:44So, that you are better than other sites that are not very good,
0:30:44 > 0:30:50does not sidestep the reason for you to own a site. Do you know?
0:30:50 > 0:30:53That is the moment, because there's no branding on that at all.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55Let me tell you your problem.
0:30:55 > 0:30:59You are going to have to spend a fortune and, actually,
0:30:59 > 0:31:03sitting here and ONLY asking for £100,000 is not going to do it
0:31:03 > 0:31:05unless you tell me that you've got
0:31:05 > 0:31:07half a million pounds sitting in your back pocket.
0:31:07 > 0:31:09- No.- Not with us, no.
0:31:09 > 0:31:14But, I think, I mean... We're doing 25,000 visitors a month,
0:31:14 > 0:31:17we think because we're very good at what we do
0:31:17 > 0:31:20and I think if we work, you know, in a combined PR and social media
0:31:20 > 0:31:25strategy, we are pretty confident that we can get much better traffic.
0:31:25 > 0:31:27And that is going to cost you a fortune.
0:31:27 > 0:31:31Trust me, 100,000 is not going to do it, so I won't be investing.
0:31:31 > 0:31:32I'm out.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39Fearing the website won't work without a hefty investment,
0:31:39 > 0:31:41Deborah Meaden bows out of a deal.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46But it is not over yet. Four Dragons remain.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50- KELLY:- If you read the papers, certainly last week...- Yeah.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52..there's all the stuff about Botox and fillers
0:31:52 > 0:31:54saying that the government is going to clamp down
0:31:54 > 0:31:57because everybody's saying that they can do it now
0:31:57 > 0:32:00and they're going to have tighter controls over it.
0:32:00 > 0:32:02It's such a tricky area
0:32:02 > 0:32:04because people are being sued all the time
0:32:04 > 0:32:07because there are people that are doing all these surgeries
0:32:07 > 0:32:09that are not really qualified to do it.
0:32:09 > 0:32:12How do you know that the people that you put on to your site,
0:32:12 > 0:32:15that you're recommending to people...?
0:32:15 > 0:32:19- We're not recommending anybody. - Well, you sort of are.- We're not.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22We basically list the clinics and we list the prices,
0:32:22 > 0:32:24we allow comparison, and then the reviews,
0:32:24 > 0:32:27people can decide from the reviews which clinic they want to go to.
0:32:27 > 0:32:29Yes, but it's still your brand at the top.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34When you buy car insurance or some other...even a flight in many ways,
0:32:34 > 0:32:37they're very standardised products.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40As long as the comparisons are the same, you get the same cover,
0:32:40 > 0:32:43it doesn't really matter in many ways.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46Whereas, you know, going to a surgery is quite different.
0:32:46 > 0:32:47There's a little bit more to it.
0:32:47 > 0:32:49The thing is, even though it is
0:32:49 > 0:32:52treatments like laser eye surgery, there's still six out of ten
0:32:52 > 0:32:56- people, price is still their number one reason...- Rubbish! Rubbish!
0:32:56 > 0:33:00- Rubbish, Tim, rubbish! Complete and utter rubbish.- That's from a...
0:33:00 > 0:33:04Absolute hogwash. I think you're all completely missing the point.
0:33:04 > 0:33:06It doesn't matter how many people have eye surgery,
0:33:06 > 0:33:08what matters is how many of them,
0:33:08 > 0:33:12- for your business, go onto Google to find the eye surgeon.- Yeah.
0:33:12 > 0:33:15- I had eye surgery. I didn't go on Google.- Yeah.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17I did what the majority of people do.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22I got a recommendation from someone who'd had it done.
0:33:22 > 0:33:24What I'm more concerned about is,
0:33:24 > 0:33:26when I go and get my eyes done, is that I walk out being
0:33:26 > 0:33:30able to see and having my eyes done properly, not the price.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36The Dragons' exasperation is becoming obvious.
0:33:37 > 0:33:42And that is making it increasingly difficult for the duo to
0:33:42 > 0:33:43salvage their pitch.
0:33:43 > 0:33:47Let's assume that you can attract a particular,
0:33:47 > 0:33:49very specific kind of traffic, so you might make
0:33:49 > 0:33:51- 200,000 pounds or even more at the bottom.- Yeah.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54If you can make that happen, great.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57The issue you're going to have is that one day you'll wake up and one
0:33:57 > 0:34:01of the big price comparison websites will think, "You know what?
0:34:01 > 0:34:04"Non-surgical cosmetic appointments?
0:34:04 > 0:34:07"We'll get into that game." And then the show's over.
0:34:08 > 0:34:09So...
0:34:09 > 0:34:12good luck with it, um, but it's not something I'd invest in, so I'm out.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15OK, thank you.
0:34:15 > 0:34:18- I think what Piers says is rubbish because...- Oh, really?
0:34:18 > 0:34:21..I don't think you can make a living out of it.
0:34:21 > 0:34:25- This is just a non-starter.- OK. - And I'm out.- Thank you.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Guys, for me it doesn't work because I agree 100%.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33Because it's medical, I don't think you use it
0:34:33 > 0:34:35the same way as you do to book a flight or a car.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38I think there are too many things you read about in the paper
0:34:38 > 0:34:41about companies setting up these medical, um, areas
0:34:41 > 0:34:44that are doing Botox and plastic surgery
0:34:44 > 0:34:46that are not qualified and, um, I wouldn't
0:34:46 > 0:34:49want to invest in something like this, so I'm afraid I'm out.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56There appears to be agreement in the Den
0:34:56 > 0:34:59as to the flaws in the business model.
0:35:00 > 0:35:03And now Peter Jones is ready to have his say.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08Your biggest issue is, if you, for example,
0:35:08 > 0:35:12allow a bad review to go up on a site, that is counterintuitive
0:35:12 > 0:35:14because if I owned that surgery,
0:35:14 > 0:35:19and I was then not getting any referrals because of your one review
0:35:19 > 0:35:23that you've allowed to be posted on your website, that means one thing -
0:35:23 > 0:35:27an immediate cessation of your income.
0:35:27 > 0:35:32We've actually found that some of the clinics that we've done that
0:35:32 > 0:35:36- with, carry on getting bookings because...- Oh, come on!
0:35:36 > 0:35:39Let's just quickly deal with this, because I've sat here politely
0:35:39 > 0:35:40listening, but the reality is,
0:35:40 > 0:35:44that if that was to occur you can't keep something up there
0:35:44 > 0:35:47and try and still take your £50 by pushing your traffic down there,
0:35:47 > 0:35:49that doesn't work. You can't do that.
0:35:49 > 0:35:51You know, you're professional guys, you couldn't be part of that.
0:35:51 > 0:35:54I say good luck to you, because you're taking some income,
0:35:54 > 0:35:56but I think it's short-term, this model,
0:35:56 > 0:36:00but I can't invest in short-term opportunities, so I'm out.
0:36:00 > 0:36:02- Thanks anyway, guys. - Thanks for your time.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08After a tough encounter with the Dragons, Tim and Ganesh
0:36:08 > 0:36:13leave the Den without the £100,000 they came for.
0:36:14 > 0:36:16That didn't go too well, did it?!
0:36:17 > 0:36:19They just didn't like it, man.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22Do you know what? It's the medical thing.
0:36:22 > 0:36:24It's... They didn't get it at all.
0:36:24 > 0:36:29- They didn't. What can you do? - Back to the drawing board, fella.
0:36:29 > 0:36:30Don't worry about it, it's...
0:36:30 > 0:36:33At least we had the balls to come on and do it, so...
0:36:36 > 0:36:39The Dragons see all manner of ideas coming out of the lift.
0:36:41 > 0:36:43And their business experience usually means
0:36:43 > 0:36:45they can spot profit anywhere...
0:36:45 > 0:36:47I'm going to make you an offer.
0:36:47 > 0:36:48Oh, OK!
0:36:48 > 0:36:50..which can even surprise the entrepreneur.
0:36:50 > 0:36:52I can't believe this. This, um...
0:36:53 > 0:36:56But some ideas can be so niche, they fail to hit home,
0:36:56 > 0:36:58whether it's a tattoo healing oil...
0:36:58 > 0:37:02Heal Ink is 100% natural tattoo aftercare to soothe
0:37:02 > 0:37:06and assist in the skin's natural healing process.
0:37:06 > 0:37:08..or a new computer game for a tablet.
0:37:08 > 0:37:13It immerses the user in a world of antiques and archaeology,
0:37:13 > 0:37:17building up priceless collections and taking part in auctions.
0:37:17 > 0:37:19These businesses were on-trend,
0:37:19 > 0:37:21but they also had other things in common...
0:37:22 > 0:37:24..like expanding markets...
0:37:25 > 0:37:27The tattoo industry has grown exponentially
0:37:27 > 0:37:28within the last few years.
0:37:28 > 0:37:331.5 million Britons are getting tattooed each year.
0:37:33 > 0:37:34..big profits...
0:37:34 > 0:37:36What would be the potential return?
0:37:36 > 0:37:41OK, so, my three-year forecast, I've got 1,000,800 with a publisher,
0:37:41 > 0:37:44and four million without.
0:37:44 > 0:37:46four million what?
0:37:46 > 0:37:48Pounds.
0:37:48 > 0:37:50..and investable entrepreneurs.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53- Your pitch, I think, is fantastic.- Thank you!
0:37:53 > 0:37:56You have been in front of the mirror rehearsing this, haven't you?
0:37:56 > 0:37:58People, crowds of people.
0:37:58 > 0:38:01And how long did it take you to learn that pitch?
0:38:01 > 0:38:03Months.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06I think you're great, by the way, you present really well.
0:38:06 > 0:38:07Thank you very much.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09But even with all this in place,
0:38:09 > 0:38:11the Dragons struggle to connect with computer games...
0:38:11 > 0:38:13Anna, I'm going to tell you where I am
0:38:13 > 0:38:16because I know very little about the gaming market.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19Anything with a plug on it, I struggle with.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22To me, and I don't know an awful lot about it, it just seems that
0:38:22 > 0:38:24there's this endless pit where you could just throw
0:38:24 > 0:38:26so much money into it.
0:38:26 > 0:38:30- ..and tattoos... - I haven't got any tattoos - yet.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33- I might have a Dragon one. Been thinking about it.- Yeah? All down your back?
0:38:33 > 0:38:35The more you talked, the more I thought
0:38:35 > 0:38:38I really don't know anything about this industry at all.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40..which led to the inevitable.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42I don't know, not just enough about it
0:38:42 > 0:38:45but I don't know the marketplace, I don't have a tattoo
0:38:45 > 0:38:48and that makes it hard to get over the line with an investment
0:38:48 > 0:38:50so I can't invest and I'm out.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53If I was going to have to put a punt on somebody, it would be you,
0:38:53 > 0:38:55but I don't have to put a punt on somebody, I don't
0:38:55 > 0:39:00- have to invest, I don't know enough about it, so I'm afraid I'm out.- OK.
0:39:00 > 0:39:01Thanks.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05- Anna's rejection was accepted with good grace.- She's fantastic.
0:39:05 > 0:39:06But for Nathan,
0:39:06 > 0:39:11such a near miss after months of preparation was just too much.
0:39:12 > 0:39:16I think my dad and my whole family have been extremely proud of what
0:39:16 > 0:39:19I've achieved to get this far, I have to tell you.
0:39:21 > 0:39:24I can't do it any more.
0:39:33 > 0:39:37Well, still no investments and only one entrepreneur left -
0:39:37 > 0:39:41James Roupell from South London with his first business venture.
0:39:41 > 0:39:46James says toddlers love his cuddly travel companion for children,
0:39:46 > 0:39:49but in the Den it's the Dragons he's to impress.
0:40:13 > 0:40:18Hi. My name is James Roupell and I'm looking for £50,000
0:40:18 > 0:40:21for a 15% stake in my company, BoBo Buddies.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25We all know how much stuff children have
0:40:25 > 0:40:29and how stressful it can be getting them from A to B.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32BoBo Buddies are four-in-one travel toys that make travelling
0:40:32 > 0:40:34with little ones fun and easy.
0:40:35 > 0:40:40Each animal is an incredibly soft toy that can be worn as a backpack,
0:40:40 > 0:40:42used as a travel pillow
0:40:42 > 0:40:47and they've all got soft fleece blankets inside,
0:40:47 > 0:40:51offering comfort to children on the go and convenience to their parents.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55Children's travel toys are a rapidly expanding market with crazes emerging
0:40:55 > 0:41:00around the world as more parents seek to put an end to travelling tantrums.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03But so often I've found these toys were cheap-looking
0:41:03 > 0:41:07and badly made and I thought I could do better.
0:41:07 > 0:41:11The idea behind BoBo Buddies was to create a totally new concept that
0:41:11 > 0:41:15was softer, cuter and more functional than anything else out there.
0:41:15 > 0:41:19In five months of trading, I've sold over 3,500 units.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22This has been done selling direct to consumers at fairs
0:41:22 > 0:41:25and through my website, as well as to trade,
0:41:25 > 0:41:29and I now have over 80 retailers stocking the product in the UK.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32I now need to take BoBo Buddies to the next level
0:41:32 > 0:41:36and this is where I need your investment and expertise.
0:41:36 > 0:41:40I really believe that this could be huge and I hope you can see
0:41:40 > 0:41:44why BoBo Buddies could be a very exciting investment opportunity.
0:41:44 > 0:41:46Thank you and any questions?
0:41:50 > 0:41:53It's a polished pitch from James Roupell.
0:41:53 > 0:41:59He's in the Den, looking for £50,000 for 15% of his soft-toy business.
0:41:59 > 0:42:05- So each of the characters has their name and a story.- So what am I?
0:42:05 > 0:42:08- So you're Mungo the Monkey. - I'm Mungo.- You're Mungo.
0:42:08 > 0:42:11- What's the cuddly toy called? - JAMES LAUGHS
0:42:11 > 0:42:14Peter Jones has become attached to the monkey,
0:42:14 > 0:42:18but will he feel the same way towards the organ grinder?
0:42:18 > 0:42:24- This is your first business venture. - This my first business venture, yeah. Absolutely.
0:42:24 > 0:42:26- It's very comfortable. - They are...- I like it.
0:42:26 > 0:42:30- They're lovely and soft. - And what did you do before, James?
0:42:30 > 0:42:32I left university two and half years ago.
0:42:32 > 0:42:34I worked for an eco-friendly start-up.
0:42:34 > 0:42:38We launched eco-friendly nursery products.
0:42:38 > 0:42:41I've always known I wanted to set up my own business, so I left them.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44It wasn't my own business and I had this idea
0:42:44 > 0:42:46and I've put everything I've got into this.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49- And how much money have you put in? - £35,000.
0:42:49 > 0:42:53Have you got any money left? I've got £25,000 in the bank at the moment.
0:42:53 > 0:42:57- You've got no debt?- No debt.
0:42:57 > 0:43:01- What is the cost to make one? - Landed cost is £5.45.
0:43:01 > 0:43:05- And what will you retail at? - They retail for £25.- 25.- Yeah.
0:43:05 > 0:43:08To sell that at £25 is very, very expensive.
0:43:10 > 0:43:13It's no more than anything else out there.
0:43:13 > 0:43:18The American version that's being sold in the UK is being sold for £35.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20Protection. Is there any protection at all on this?
0:43:20 > 0:43:23- I can't patent these.- No, you can't.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27- But we've trademarked the name BoBo Buddies.- Any design rights?
0:43:27 > 0:43:30Design rights? No.
0:43:30 > 0:43:33So there's no protection, actually, on the product?
0:43:33 > 0:43:35Not on the product, no. No.
0:43:39 > 0:43:43After an encouraging start in the Den, the news that James
0:43:43 > 0:43:47can't protect his product is of obvious concern to the Dragons.
0:43:49 > 0:43:53And to make matters worse, Piers Linney now has an issue with
0:43:53 > 0:43:56the valuation James has placed on the business.
0:43:57 > 0:44:03- James, your valuation is round about £270,000.- Yeah.
0:44:03 > 0:44:0727 times your current net profit.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09And even, you know, two times next year's revenues.
0:44:09 > 0:44:14That's based on the sales so far, the reaction I've had so far,
0:44:14 > 0:44:17and the belief that in four years' time,
0:44:17 > 0:44:19turning over £500,000, and a million in five years.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23I really don't think it's unrealistic.
0:44:23 > 0:44:26The targets that you've given are very small.
0:44:26 > 0:44:28I think to make this a successful business,
0:44:28 > 0:44:31it's going to need quite a lot of work.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36You're going to have to spend a huge amount of money in promotion
0:44:36 > 0:44:39and marketing, but you're going to have quite immense
0:44:39 > 0:44:41pressure on the business as a result.
0:44:41 > 0:44:47And that's before you sort of put BoBo into the marketplace. But...
0:44:48 > 0:44:50..I have a very good feeling about it.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54And I do think if you get the BoBo positioning right...
0:44:56 > 0:44:58I think it could...it could be big.
0:45:01 > 0:45:04So I'm going to make you an offer, James.
0:45:04 > 0:45:08And I will offer you the whole £50,000.
0:45:10 > 0:45:12But in return, I would like 40% of the business.
0:45:14 > 0:45:16Right.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23An offer almost out of the blue for this unassuming entrepreneur.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29So do any of the other Dragons share Peter Jones' faith in James?
0:45:31 > 0:45:35When you first came in, I thought, seen it -
0:45:35 > 0:45:40- doesn't do anything that something else doesn't do.- Yeah, yeah.
0:45:40 > 0:45:44But actually it's your ethos and your vision
0:45:44 > 0:45:49of what can be done with this that is AS impressive as this.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51It's also a space that Peter
0:45:51 > 0:45:54and I have successfully invested in previously.
0:45:55 > 0:45:58So I have some experience of getting this to market
0:45:58 > 0:46:00so I'm going to make you an offer.
0:46:00 > 0:46:04I'm going to offer you all the money
0:46:04 > 0:46:06but I want 40% of the business.
0:46:08 > 0:46:12- Right.- I'd be very happy to share with Peter, if Peter is interested.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15- Half the money for 20%. - Absolutely.
0:46:15 > 0:46:17I would be very happy to split it with Deborah
0:46:17 > 0:46:20because I think she's lovely.
0:46:20 > 0:46:22OK!
0:46:24 > 0:46:25- And he's a charmer.- Yeah.
0:46:27 > 0:46:29OK. Thank you very much. Thank you.
0:46:31 > 0:46:35Um...I think it's worth more.
0:46:37 > 0:46:41I think there's more money in it, especially in you and your ability.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43Your work ethic.
0:46:44 > 0:46:49So I'm going to offer you all the money but I just want 35%.
0:46:51 > 0:46:55- Not 40.- Right. Great. Thank you very much. Thank you.
0:46:59 > 0:47:04Drama in the Den as Duncan Bannatyne undercuts Peter Jones
0:47:04 > 0:47:05and Deborah Meaden's offer.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09And there are still two Dragons left in.
0:47:09 > 0:47:13Um, I quite like YOU so I'm quite interested in investing in you.
0:47:13 > 0:47:15I think you'll do something interesting,
0:47:15 > 0:47:18- be it with this or the next product, I'm not sure.- Mm-hm.
0:47:18 > 0:47:21- But I think you will succeed one way or the other.- Thank you.
0:47:21 > 0:47:26So I'm going to make an offer as well. You're doing quite well today.
0:47:26 > 0:47:31- Yeah. Thank you. - It's not really something I want to put the whole £50,000 into.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35But I'm quite interested in whether Kelly would match my offer
0:47:35 > 0:47:37because I think it would be great having Kelly's design
0:47:37 > 0:47:41- capability involved and her contacts too.- Right.
0:47:41 > 0:47:48So I'm going to offer you £25,000 for 15%.
0:47:49 > 0:47:53I'll match your offer. I'll match your offer, Piers.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01It's a full house for the South-London-based entrepreneur.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04So does James have a preferred combination of investors in mind?
0:48:07 > 0:48:09What do you want, James?
0:48:09 > 0:48:12You've got two Dragons here that you probably won't know.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14You've got three Dragons that you do.
0:48:14 > 0:48:17Um, who do you want to work with?
0:48:17 > 0:48:22Er, I obviously had an idea before I came in.
0:48:22 > 0:48:26And with the track record that you have and the investments
0:48:26 > 0:48:27that you've made before, Deborah
0:48:27 > 0:48:32and yourself are the two that interest me the most
0:48:32 > 0:48:37but the problem I have, is 40%, which is
0:48:37 > 0:48:40roughly where these various offers is...
0:48:40 > 0:48:44My one is 30, which is only half, which if you ask me
0:48:44 > 0:48:48is a big difference to 40%.
0:48:48 > 0:48:49No, it is.
0:48:49 > 0:48:54It is, so... And um, I mean, I can't give away 40% of my business.
0:48:54 > 0:48:59Um, I came in here saying I'd give away maximum of 25%.
0:48:59 > 0:49:03Then, and 40% is nowhere... Isn't near that.
0:49:05 > 0:49:08James, this is a hard... It's a hard thing for you.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11And because you've got to obviously make the right decision.
0:49:11 > 0:49:15I'm sitting here with 11 offices around the world dealing
0:49:15 > 0:49:19in 10 or 12 different varying products.
0:49:19 > 0:49:21I'm in the children's market,
0:49:21 > 0:49:24partnership with Deborah.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26I kind of think that you've got to take those things
0:49:26 > 0:49:29and sometimes that might cost a bit more because you
0:49:29 > 0:49:33get on the stepping stones faster, you make a lot more money.
0:49:33 > 0:49:37That return investment's got to be there, but if I looked at life,
0:49:37 > 0:49:42I would like to have a much larger equity slice and a business
0:49:42 > 0:49:47or a smaller equity slice and a business that has almost surety of success.
0:49:49 > 0:49:54I would 100% go for the surety of success.
0:49:55 > 0:49:58I'm different. I think you're a bit of a self-starter.
0:49:58 > 0:50:00You don't need somebody to help you.
0:50:00 > 0:50:01I mean, a lot of it's going to be...
0:50:01 > 0:50:03He needs the most valuable thing
0:50:03 > 0:50:07that we have got, which is those doors and the route to market
0:50:07 > 0:50:09and that is the most... that's the most...
0:50:09 > 0:50:12That's the most valuable thing that I can give anybody...
0:50:12 > 0:50:16is to say, "There you go, get yourself in front of those people."
0:50:16 > 0:50:18I agree, but while you're looking for those doors,
0:50:18 > 0:50:20you also don't want to be tripping over
0:50:20 > 0:50:23all the obvious business mistakes lots of young entrepreneurs make,
0:50:23 > 0:50:26- which can cost you an absolute fortune.- No, of course.
0:50:26 > 0:50:29At the end of the day, it's about equity.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34- I mean, I've had blazing rows over 1% of my business.- Yeah, yeah.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37And we're talking about a difference here of potentially 10%
0:50:37 > 0:50:40of your business. That's a big number. This is not stuff...
0:50:40 > 0:50:44- This is gold dust. You don't just give it away.- No.
0:50:46 > 0:50:50Well, what I'd like to explore a little bit more is what opportunities
0:50:50 > 0:50:53could you two new Dragons create that otherwise I wouldn't come across.
0:50:53 > 0:50:57You're probably looking at me, you think, "Piers, he's a tech entrepreneur."
0:50:57 > 0:51:00I'm not, actually. I'm an entrepreneur. So you look at my background,
0:51:00 > 0:51:03I've been in pharmaceutical research, the music business,
0:51:03 > 0:51:06radio, records, corporate finance, technology, you name it.
0:51:06 > 0:51:10I've been in lots of different things. It's business, isn't it?
0:51:10 > 0:51:13It's about, you know, creating companies, creating brands,
0:51:13 > 0:51:15and making money.
0:51:15 > 0:51:17What I am really is someone who will make you succeed
0:51:17 > 0:51:19and support you and open doors.
0:51:21 > 0:51:24Um, so thank you for your answer. Um, Kelly.
0:51:24 > 0:51:29For me, what I was interested in is trying to help you grow this.
0:51:29 > 0:51:31You know, as I'm sitting here, I'm seeing all these other
0:51:31 > 0:51:35products that you could design and I think what I could
0:51:35 > 0:51:38bring to the table, because I have come from a design background,
0:51:38 > 0:51:43is the design, helping you realise this dream and this character.
0:51:43 > 0:51:47I'm such a make-believer, I can sort of see these animals
0:51:47 > 0:51:48and see where it could go.
0:51:48 > 0:51:51- So yours would be slightly more creative.- Exactly.
0:51:54 > 0:51:59A persuasive Kelly Hoppen and Piers Linney fight for their corner.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01But three experienced
0:52:01 > 0:52:04and very competitive tycoons are still in the game.
0:52:08 > 0:52:14- James, I'll make life a bit easier for you, James.- Thank you. Please.
0:52:14 > 0:52:17Or a bit more difficult, depending how you look at it.
0:52:17 > 0:52:23Piers has offered you £25,000 for 15%.
0:52:24 > 0:52:25I'll match his offer.
0:52:29 > 0:52:32But that's £50,000 for 30%.
0:52:35 > 0:52:37I would go one stage further if Deborah was happy.
0:52:37 > 0:52:40I'm focused purely on the investment.
0:52:40 > 0:52:44I would be willing to say that the minute I get my investment back,
0:52:44 > 0:52:47if that's... Sharing it with Deborah, if I received 25,000...
0:52:48 > 0:52:53..I would drop immediately to 15%, which would mean that you would
0:52:53 > 0:52:57own 70% of the company, I would own 15%,
0:52:57 > 0:52:58Deborah owns 15%...
0:53:00 > 0:53:04..and you've got, hopefully, a successful business.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11I'd go with that, Peter. I'd be very happy for that.
0:53:12 > 0:53:16Um, well, I really appreciate your... your offers. I can't...
0:53:16 > 0:53:19can't believe that it's got to the stage
0:53:19 > 0:53:21and, er...
0:53:21 > 0:53:24It's obviously... I knew it was going to be...
0:53:24 > 0:53:26It's more than I want...
0:53:26 > 0:53:29than I'd thought I'd want to give away.
0:53:34 > 0:53:37The thing that I'm really thinking about at the moment is
0:53:37 > 0:53:44the possibility of Deborah and Peter
0:53:44 > 0:53:49splitting 35
0:53:49 > 0:53:50then going down to 25.
0:53:54 > 0:53:59The Dragons didn't become successful in business without negotiating hard.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01But with five offers on the table,
0:54:01 > 0:54:06a poker-faced James is standing his ground.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08I need to be clear.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12My offer is 40.
0:54:12 > 0:54:14Going down to 30.
0:54:14 > 0:54:18Um, but it's got to be worth my while.
0:54:18 > 0:54:20I don't know how Peter feels about that, but that's my end of it
0:54:20 > 0:54:22so my offer stands.
0:54:22 > 0:54:2740% ratcheting down to 30% or splitting that with Peter.
0:54:29 > 0:54:30Look.
0:54:30 > 0:54:32I'm really keen to work with you
0:54:32 > 0:54:36and Peter, but I really need for you to move somehow on the 40.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39I think with the five offers, with me,
0:54:39 > 0:54:45with what I've shown, I think I'm worth more.
0:54:45 > 0:54:49- But the other offers, with frank, it's irrelevant.- But you haven't...
0:54:49 > 0:54:52You came in at 40% and you haven't really budged from that.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55We have. We've given you 10% back.
0:54:55 > 0:54:59The more you focus on these two, the less interesting it becomes.
0:55:01 > 0:55:07If 25% is genuinely your top price, then you can absolutely,
0:55:07 > 0:55:11and I'm really sorry to say this, but I could not contemplate doing
0:55:11 > 0:55:14a 25% if I was going to split it with anybody.
0:55:21 > 0:55:24But if you won't split it
0:55:24 > 0:55:27would 25% for the £50,000...?
0:55:35 > 0:55:37No, no, no.
0:55:39 > 0:55:43The problem that I've got is I've got two offers
0:55:43 > 0:55:45for 30 immediately.
0:55:47 > 0:55:51I just don't think I can give away 40%, even though that
0:55:51 > 0:55:54would be 30 after.
0:55:54 > 0:55:58It's far beyond what I thought you'd be asking for. Um...
0:56:03 > 0:56:08- Sorry to be a pain. Do you mind if I have a moment?- Just talk to yourself.
0:56:08 > 0:56:09Thank you.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13It's an extraordinary moment in the Den.
0:56:13 > 0:56:16Rarely has there been such a tough negotiation.
0:56:17 > 0:56:20So who will blink first?
0:56:32 > 0:56:33Right. Right.
0:56:38 > 0:56:43- I'd like to accept yours and Peter's offer. Please.- Well.
0:56:43 > 0:56:47I'm very pleased about that. And I think you've made a good decision.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49Thank you very much.
0:56:49 > 0:56:53He's done it. After an edge-of-the-seat encounter,
0:56:53 > 0:56:56James leaves the Den with the two Dragons he wanted
0:56:56 > 0:56:58and a deal he's happy with.
0:57:00 > 0:57:03So difficult being offered the same amount of money for less
0:57:03 > 0:57:07equity from the others, but with Deborah and Peter's experience,
0:57:07 > 0:57:10even though they were asking for more equity, I think in the end it's...
0:57:10 > 0:57:13I'm happy with the result.
0:57:21 > 0:57:26So a well fought after investment there and two near misses as well.
0:57:26 > 0:57:31A dramatic day, which brings the Den to a close for another series,
0:57:31 > 0:57:33a series which has shown the Dragons have lost
0:57:33 > 0:57:37none of their appetite to back the best business ideas.
0:57:37 > 0:57:40Now if you think you have what it takes to win an investment
0:57:40 > 0:57:43when the Den the next opens, do get in touch via our website.
0:57:43 > 0:57:47And hope to see you here next time.
0:57:50 > 0:57:54- When do you run out of money? - In about four months' time.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57- So you're really in big trouble then?- Yes.
0:57:57 > 0:57:58Let's go.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03Nothing that you've said has made me feel confident that
0:58:03 > 0:58:06if I gave you a million pounds, that you would make money.
0:58:08 > 0:58:09Good riddance.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11Do you know who I am?
0:58:11 > 0:58:12Yeah. Peter someone.
0:58:17 > 0:58:20- That's amazing! - That's genius.- Thank you.
0:58:21 > 0:58:23I'm going to make you an offer.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26- £100,000.- But for 15%.
0:58:26 > 0:58:29- Flipping hell!- Wow.
0:58:30 > 0:58:35- I'd like to accept both of your offers, please.- Excellent.- Thank you.
0:58:35 > 0:58:37- Party on!- Yeah.
0:58:37 > 0:58:39Woo-hoo!
0:58:39 > 0:58:41Sh!