0:00:27 > 0:00:29These are the Dragons -
0:00:29 > 0:00:35wealthy, well-connected, innovative and influential.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Each week, they make or break the dreams
0:00:39 > 0:00:43of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46I don't think this is in the slightest bit commercial.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49- I think it's ridiculous.- You're saying it's a natural product.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51You don't get that feeling from it. It looks...
0:00:51 > 0:00:53It looks like drain cleaner.
0:00:54 > 0:00:55What?!
0:00:55 > 0:00:59People are paying £1,500 for that?!
0:00:59 > 0:01:02I'm just trying to get to the understanding of why you think
0:01:02 > 0:01:07putting some handles on a blanket is worth half a million pounds.
0:01:07 > 0:01:09I'm going to make you an offer.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17Leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden,
0:01:17 > 0:01:22telecoms giant Peter Jones
0:01:22 > 0:01:25and hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne
0:01:25 > 0:01:27have, between them, struck deals
0:01:27 > 0:01:29worth more than £7 million in the Den.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34But ready to fight for the next shrewd investment
0:01:34 > 0:01:36is the creator of her own
0:01:36 > 0:01:40world-renowned interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43and cloud computing pioneer, Piers Linney.
0:01:45 > 0:01:49The multimillionaires will give each entrepreneur just three minutes
0:01:49 > 0:01:51to pitch their idea
0:01:51 > 0:01:54and then interrogate them on every aspect of their business.
0:01:55 > 0:01:58To face them takes nerve and vision,
0:01:58 > 0:02:00so who will leave with the Dragons' money?
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Welcome back to Dragons' Den,
0:02:10 > 0:02:13where we'll meet more ambitious entrepreneurs
0:02:13 > 0:02:17vying for investment from five self-made multimillionaires
0:02:17 > 0:02:21who have the power to make or break their business dreams.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Now, in the UK, we are in the middle of a baby boom
0:02:24 > 0:02:27and our first entrepreneurs are hoping to take advantage of this
0:02:27 > 0:02:31with a product for babies they think will transform the lives of parents.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41LIFT DINGS
0:03:07 > 0:03:09BOTH: Shh!
0:03:10 > 0:03:13- Hello, my name's David Solomons. - And I'm Mike Edwards.
0:03:13 > 0:03:16And we are looking for £100,000 investment for a 20% equity share
0:03:16 > 0:03:19in our company, Snugglebundl.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22Now, all parents know how difficult it is when you've eventually got your
0:03:22 > 0:03:26baby to sleep in your arms, to then lay them down without waking them up.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28This can be especially difficult if either parent
0:03:28 > 0:03:31suffers from a bad back or if Mum's recovering after the birth.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34Stooping to lay your baby down without waking them up
0:03:34 > 0:03:37can be really awkward and, more often than not, they wake up
0:03:37 > 0:03:39and you end up having to do it all over again.
0:03:39 > 0:03:42Well, with the Snugglebundl, we've got the solution.
0:03:42 > 0:03:45MIKE: Yes, the Snugglebundl is the world's first baby-lifting blanket.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48It's made from a lovely, soft cotton and has padding to support
0:03:48 > 0:03:51and protect the head and neck, two soft, strong handles,
0:03:51 > 0:03:53and it's all fully safety tested.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Now, instead of bending over awkwardly to
0:03:55 > 0:03:58lay your baby down, simply take the two handles and
0:03:58 > 0:04:01lower your baby down gently with a straight back.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03If your baby stirs, simply rock them back to sleep,
0:04:03 > 0:04:07and this is especially good for soothing colic symptoms.
0:04:07 > 0:04:08DAVID: Now when your baby's
0:04:08 > 0:04:10asleep and you need to move them, it's so easy.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13You just take the handles and you lift your baby softly and gently up
0:04:13 > 0:04:18to your arms without having to bend over and without waking them up.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21And Snugglebundl fits safely into pushchairs and prams,
0:04:21 > 0:04:22into supermarket trolley seats.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26But especially it's designed to go straight in and out of the car seat.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30You lift your baby in on the Snugglebundl as they sleep
0:04:30 > 0:04:36and the straps will do up safely and securely in any make of car seat.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39MIKE: With over 2,000 babies born every day in the UK alone,
0:04:39 > 0:04:42there is great potential for our company to grow rapidly.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46We would love you to join us in our Snugglebundl family
0:04:46 > 0:04:48and then the Snugglebundl into a global brand. Thank you.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50DAVID: We welcome your questions.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56A pitch with the cute factor
0:04:56 > 0:05:00from Mike Edwards and Dave Solomons from West Sussex.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03There are looking for £100,000 to carry their baby blanket
0:05:03 > 0:05:08business to the next level. On offer in return is a 20% stake.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12Kelly Hoppen looks impressed.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17- Hi, David and Mike, I'm Kelly. - BOTH: Hello, Kelly.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20- I think it's brilliant. - BOTH: Thank you.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24I mean, my daughter's 29 but I do remember that moment every
0:05:24 > 0:05:26time you to try and get your child to sleep
0:05:26 > 0:05:29and then you lean down to put them down, they'd always wake up and
0:05:29 > 0:05:33you'd be busy sort of shaking them around again to get them to sleep.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36When is the baby in it? Do you leave them in it all the time just in case
0:05:36 > 0:05:38- they fall asleep?- It's a garment, effectively. The baby would...
0:05:38 > 0:05:42It's a garment-cum-mat for the baby, so whenever you go out, you can
0:05:42 > 0:05:44wrap... or they fall asleep, you can wrap them up
0:05:44 > 0:05:47when you want to lift them. It's like a second skin for the baby.
0:05:47 > 0:05:48That's my question, so...
0:05:48 > 0:05:51- They're going to live in it until they're four.- That's what I mean.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54They need to live in it in case they fall asleep.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57It's for the first six months so it's particularly for straight
0:05:57 > 0:06:01after the birth when Mum's, you know, a little bit tender and sore.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05Give birth, in the snuggle blanket, four years later you take them out.
0:06:05 > 0:06:06Yeah, you use it from day one.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08You put it in the hospital bag and use it straightaway.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12And babies get used to the feel and smell of the blanket
0:06:12 > 0:06:15- so it becomes their blanket. - Tell me about the business.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17So, is it being sold anywhere?
0:06:17 > 0:06:19Yeah, we are doing incredibly well with it already.
0:06:19 > 0:06:23We've already sold just over 4,000 units. About 4,200.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27- It's really gathering momentum. - What is the cost of them?
0:06:27 > 0:06:30Retail at 39.99. So we have got a gross profit margin of...
0:06:30 > 0:06:32- 76%. - ..76%.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37And any stores that we would know of that you're selling into?
0:06:37 > 0:06:40We've got a letter of interest from Boots at the moment,
0:06:40 > 0:06:44who really loved the product and have asked us
0:06:44 > 0:06:47to keep in touch with them as we grow the brand.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51Sorry, why would they say, "Keep in touch," and not ask you to come in?
0:06:51 > 0:06:54Because they... The thing is, when you're a small producer
0:06:54 > 0:06:58like us, they often want to replace one or two at a time and they
0:06:58 > 0:07:01work for a distributor and have lots of different products in one go.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04They don't like to deal with individual manufacturers
0:07:04 > 0:07:05and suppliers.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07- Could we have a look? - Yeah. Oh, yes, sure.
0:07:07 > 0:07:09- We got some packages there. - Give us a baby.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13Interest from a major retailer -
0:07:13 > 0:07:17the icing on the cake for an already product-smitten Kelly Hoppen.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20But does Peter Jones share her enthusiasm?
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Are we being serious? This is a carrier bag for a baby
0:07:26 > 0:07:29and you're pitching this as a business that's worth
0:07:29 > 0:07:33- half a million pounds? - What's... What's...
0:07:33 > 0:07:35You've put a handle on a blanket.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37It's purely as a lifting aid.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40You can do the same with a blanket. You just wrap your child in
0:07:40 > 0:07:43a blanket if you want to and you put it there and just
0:07:43 > 0:07:45lift the baby up. The fact that you've put a handle on...
0:07:45 > 0:07:47That's not so safe. And to move them from one thing...
0:07:47 > 0:07:48That's not safe anyway.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51You start getting into some sort of routine and carry it, you know,
0:07:51 > 0:07:53you'll forget you've got a baby in there
0:07:53 > 0:07:56and be carrying it like a handbag. I don't know whether it's because -
0:07:56 > 0:07:58and I'm not being sexist here -
0:07:58 > 0:08:00whether it's the fact that it's weird having two blokes
0:08:00 > 0:08:02come in holding babies and pitching this concept.
0:08:02 > 0:08:03I don't know whether that's
0:08:03 > 0:08:06- what's put me off to start with. - No, you are being sexist.
0:08:06 > 0:08:08Could we bring in our third...? Our third...
0:08:08 > 0:08:10- Team member. - Our third team member.
0:08:10 > 0:08:11- Is your team member a female?- Yes.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14I think it's a good time to bring Heidi in if we can.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16- Let's get Heidi in.- OK.
0:08:22 > 0:08:28- Hello. I'm Heidi.- Hi, Heidi.- Hi. - Heidi, I just want to see...
0:08:28 > 0:08:29ask you a few questions,
0:08:29 > 0:08:32because we've got these two very strange men that have walked in
0:08:32 > 0:08:35trying to convince me that a blanket
0:08:35 > 0:08:38with a handle on it is worth half a million pounds.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40What is your involvement in this?
0:08:40 > 0:08:43OK, well, my background is I'm a qualified nursery nurse
0:08:43 > 0:08:45and I've worked for...
0:08:45 > 0:08:47I've managed family centres, I've worked with babies
0:08:47 > 0:08:50and young children and families for over 20 years.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54- Could the child fall out of this carrier bag?- No, it's impossible to.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56But the reality is that people have lived quite happily for
0:08:56 > 0:09:00many, many years by snuggling their child into a blanket.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02I'm just trying to get to the understanding of why you think
0:09:02 > 0:09:06putting some handles on a blanket is worth half a million pounds.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09Yeah, I mean, I'm completely with you.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12People can spend a lot of money on baby products that are,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15you know, two-minute wonders, that are just very, very gadgety,
0:09:15 > 0:09:18but because this blanket has got so many benefits,
0:09:18 > 0:09:20and, of course, there's parenting and parenting styles
0:09:20 > 0:09:23and things that have come into the whole way we parent children -
0:09:23 > 0:09:27we now have car seats that weren't around, you know, years ago...
0:09:27 > 0:09:30Heidi, you're not addressing Peter's question.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32He didn't say, "How many different uses have you got
0:09:32 > 0:09:35"and how brilliant is it?" The question was,
0:09:35 > 0:09:41why is a business that is basically a, in Peter's description,
0:09:41 > 0:09:42blanket with handles on it,
0:09:42 > 0:09:46why, at this stage of the game, is it worth half a million pounds?
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Mainly because of the response we've had.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52The response from all the experts, the response from the public
0:09:52 > 0:09:54and the potential going forward.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03Heidi's arrival may have brought some credibility to the pitch
0:10:03 > 0:10:06but it's not prevented a dressing down from Deborah Meaden.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10How will the trio handle Duncan Bannatyne's questioning?
0:10:11 > 0:10:14I think it was Mike that said there's 2,000 babies born in the UK
0:10:14 > 0:10:17- every day.- Mm-hm.- OK, how many of those are your customer base?
0:10:19 > 0:10:21Well, we do shows all the time...
0:10:21 > 0:10:23No. How many of those 2,000 are your customer base?
0:10:23 > 0:10:25HEIDI: We've sold over 4,000 units...
0:10:25 > 0:10:27- How many of those 2,000 are your customer base?- About 25%.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30About 25%. So, while the rest of them not your customer base?
0:10:30 > 0:10:33We don't know. DAVID: They haven't heard about it yet.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36I don't think they are because I don't think...
0:10:36 > 0:10:38There is a high percentage of those 2,000 who can't
0:10:38 > 0:10:40afford £40 for a blanket.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43As we make more, as we order
0:10:43 > 0:10:46and make more, then hopefully we will be able to bring the price down.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48MIKE: We are gaining more and more publicity.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50- We were recently on BBC TWO. - HEIDI: Radio 2.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52Radio 2. Simon Mayo's show.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55So two million more people know about us very recently.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57- And what happened following that? - Well...
0:10:57 > 0:10:59It just went crazy, basically.
0:10:59 > 0:11:03I mean, the orders just absolutely rolled in and are still coming in.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06That's fantastic. And how much does crazy mean?
0:11:06 > 0:11:11Well, our direct sales, going from sort of 50 a month,
0:11:11 > 0:11:15within two days, we were 265.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20So, a significant boost in sales from publicity.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24And now Peter Jones is ready to have his say.
0:11:27 > 0:11:28Guys...
0:11:30 > 0:11:35..I've sat politely to see whether I feel that I was a bit harsh earlier.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39The more I sit here, the more I realise that I'm not...
0:11:39 > 0:11:43I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment of this.
0:11:43 > 0:11:44I'm not going to invest
0:11:44 > 0:11:49because I don't think that I will get anything like the return
0:11:49 > 0:11:52on the money that I need, I don't think your business is worth
0:11:52 > 0:11:58half a million pounds and I do see it as a blanket with handles.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02So, I'm sorry, guys, and Heidi, and not going to invest and I'm out.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03Thanks, Peter.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05- DUNCAN:- Oh, that's so, so annoying.
0:12:07 > 0:12:09So annoying. I have to agree with Peter Jones again.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12You know, there's no doubt you'll sell these on websites
0:12:12 > 0:12:15and independents and make a little bit of money
0:12:15 > 0:12:18but it's not a business worth half a million pound.
0:12:18 > 0:12:23So I have to agree with Peter - I have to say I'm out as well.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25Disappointment for the entrepreneurs
0:12:25 > 0:12:28as two Dragons take themselves out of the equation.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31Will Piers Linney follow suit?
0:12:34 > 0:12:38Mike, David, Heidi, I like it, I just can't quite see...
0:12:38 > 0:12:41I'd always want it there the time I probably haven't put
0:12:41 > 0:12:46the baby in it, in my view. I think you will sell some. I think it's...
0:12:46 > 0:12:47You know, you've obviously thought about it,
0:12:47 > 0:12:51it's a great design and I can see there's absolutely a use for it.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54I'm just not convinced that if you invested £100,000, you know,
0:12:54 > 0:12:58you'd get the money back that you'd need to, so
0:12:58 > 0:13:01- good luck with it, but I'm afraid I'm out.- Thank you.
0:13:04 > 0:13:05Ooh.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10I completely disagree with Peter and Duncan.
0:13:13 > 0:13:14And I'm really very unlike me
0:13:14 > 0:13:18because I'm usually very, very decisive.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20But I've been sitting here, thinking,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23"It feels like there's something about this," but I've actually
0:13:23 > 0:13:27made my mind up now and it's not going to go the right way for you.
0:13:28 > 0:13:33I have an instinct that this works and, actually, £100,000, you know,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36for less money, I'd probably have thought, "You know what?
0:13:36 > 0:13:39"We'll give it a go. £50,000, we'll give it a go."
0:13:39 > 0:13:42But you're talking for a sensible amount of money, which I'm
0:13:42 > 0:13:46sure you need and I have to say your valuation, right now, is crazy.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48I don't know how you can disagree with me and Pete
0:13:48 > 0:13:50- and then say it's the money... - No. You said...
0:13:50 > 0:13:52- It was the valuation... - I'll tell you why, Duncan,
0:13:52 > 0:13:55- because you said you thought the product was rubbish.- No, I didn't.
0:13:55 > 0:13:58No, I never. I said it's very good quality.
0:13:58 > 0:14:00You completely agreed with Peter
0:14:00 > 0:14:02that it was just a blanket with handles on.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04Anyway, I'm not having a conversation with Duncan,
0:14:04 > 0:14:06I'm having a conversation with the people in front of me.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10I just think that, unfortunately, I don't know
0:14:10 > 0:14:15- and you haven't got me there, so I'm afraid I'm out.- Thank you.
0:14:16 > 0:14:20No investment from Deborah Meaden,
0:14:20 > 0:14:24leaving Kelly Hoppen the only Dragon still able to get into bed
0:14:24 > 0:14:25with the entrepreneurs.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Snugglebundl has certainly brought out her maternal side.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32Will it unleash the investor in her, too?
0:14:36 > 0:14:39I have sat here really loving this product.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43I really do think you've created something that's...
0:14:43 > 0:14:46as much as Peter is slagging it off, I do think it's clever.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55And I was going to make an offer...
0:14:56 > 0:14:58..but I'm not, and I'm going to tell you why.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01Because, when I asked you about Boots,
0:15:01 > 0:15:04I'm dealing with Boots on something else at the moment.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08I hadn't even shown them, you know, the product, just spoke to them.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11They automatically want you to come in and see it.
0:15:11 > 0:15:12You've also done all the trade shows.
0:15:12 > 0:15:14DAVID: They met us at a trade show, sorry.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16HEIDI: It's been a very, very recent thing.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19They've actually seen it, so that's even more worrying for me.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22They really should have got you back in to place an order.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24And I don't want to slag you off cos I do think it's
0:15:24 > 0:15:29a brilliant product. I'm afraid I'm out, but I do think it's very good.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33- ALL: Thank you. DUNCAN:- Good luck. - Good luck.- Thanks.
0:15:33 > 0:15:37It's a blanket no for Snugglebundl, proving that having
0:15:37 > 0:15:40a highly qualified member of your team
0:15:40 > 0:15:44doesn't always guarantee investment.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47It's a shame they didn't see the real potential in it because,
0:15:47 > 0:15:49you know, we have got so many satisfied customers.
0:15:49 > 0:15:53If they were to hear our customers, they would have certainly invested.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59But having expertise in your field
0:15:59 > 0:16:01usually gives a pitch real credibility.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03My highest profile position
0:16:03 > 0:16:06was executive designer on the Tomb Raider franchise.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09I'm a master chef and chocolatier. My name is Hans Schweitzer.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12I studied product design and robotics
0:16:12 > 0:16:16and at the moment I am a PhD student at the University of Southampton.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20Our next entrepreneurs certainly had impeccable credentials.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23My name's Dr Samantha Decombel
0:16:23 > 0:16:26and this is my partner, Dr Stuart Grice.
0:16:26 > 0:16:28We're scientists.
0:16:28 > 0:16:32Their product was a fusion of the worlds of art and science.
0:16:32 > 0:16:36We've created a range of beautiful artwork with the most personal
0:16:36 > 0:16:40touch of all - it gives you a glimpse inside of your DNA.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44Piers Linney found it all bit baffling.
0:16:44 > 0:16:49- So you want to be the premier scientific artwork company.- Yes.
0:16:49 > 0:16:50So, where does it go next?
0:16:50 > 0:16:53You put someone's appendix in a nice coloured jar, or...?
0:16:53 > 0:16:54Where is this supposed to go?
0:16:54 > 0:16:58No. We do bespoke work. It's like a portrait.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02It's little bits of people, you know, little bits of their family.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Designer Kelly Hoppen couldn't picture the product
0:17:05 > 0:17:07in any of her interiors.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10I'm sort of trying to get my head around why I'd want to see
0:17:10 > 0:17:12that as a piece of art on my wall.
0:17:12 > 0:17:14I'm not sure I'd want to look at that.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17I don't believe that the science and the art go together and
0:17:17 > 0:17:20I don't think this is in the slightest bit commercial.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22I think it's ridiculous.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24Duncan Bannatyne was surprised
0:17:24 > 0:17:28when he decoded the cost of the scientific pictures.
0:17:28 > 0:17:29What price are you selling at?
0:17:29 > 0:17:35- So, this one will be 1,500... - What?!- ..and 49.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38People are paying £1,500 for that?!
0:17:38 > 0:17:40Have you analysed the DNA genes of these people to see
0:17:40 > 0:17:45if they have got the daft gene? Or the throw-money-away gene?
0:17:45 > 0:17:47It's a bespoke... LAUGHTER
0:17:47 > 0:17:50It's a bespoke piece of artwork, Duncan.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54The Dragons were less interested in the DNA of the entrepreneurs'
0:17:54 > 0:17:58artwork and more intrigued by the chemistry of their relationship.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00Are you married?
0:18:01 > 0:18:05- Been going out for 17 years. - It's a bit of a sore point.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08If you were to do it now, I'd invest.
0:18:08 > 0:18:10- Please. - Honestly?
0:18:12 > 0:18:15You... You are in so much trouble now.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20But any hope of a Dragon/doctor relationship was dashed
0:18:20 > 0:18:23as Piers Linney summed up the feeling in the Den.
0:18:24 > 0:18:28I think you do have a small market for certain people
0:18:28 > 0:18:33who would go for this. Is it a business you can invest in?
0:18:33 > 0:18:36I'm not convinced. This is not for me, so I'm out.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45If strong credentials were a guarantee of investment,
0:18:45 > 0:18:48our next entrepreneurs would be laughing all the way to the bank.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52Team GB triathlete Lynwen Harrison is here with her business
0:18:52 > 0:18:56partner Rachel Smith and their sports recovery drink.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00They're not just here to take part, they're here to win an investment.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22(We can do this. We know it inside out.)
0:19:22 > 0:19:23LIFT DINGS
0:19:36 > 0:19:38Hello, my name is Rachel Smith
0:19:38 > 0:19:40and this is my business partner, Lynwen Harrison.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Our company is called nouriSH me now
0:19:42 > 0:19:45and we've created a natural sports recovery drink.
0:19:45 > 0:19:46We've come to the Dragons' Den today
0:19:46 > 0:19:50to ask for £75,000 for 15% of our business.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55LYNWEN: NouriSH me now is a natural, fresh sports recovery drink.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Essentially, this allows you to rehydrate,
0:19:58 > 0:20:01repair and refuel after you've exercised.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04And what that means in real terms is that you can train again
0:20:04 > 0:20:09sooner or you can you ameliorate some of the negative effects of exercise
0:20:09 > 0:20:14like muscle soreness. I came up with the idea around about three years ago
0:20:14 > 0:20:18when I got a Team GB selection for triathlon in my age group.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22I tried just about every single recovery product that was out there
0:20:22 > 0:20:24and just didn't like any of them,
0:20:24 > 0:20:28the taste, the nuisance of mixing powders up
0:20:28 > 0:20:33and the synthetic nature, primarily, of what I seemed to be taking on.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36My background is I'm a physiotherapist
0:20:36 > 0:20:40and I have a biology degree from Sheffield University so I knew a fair
0:20:40 > 0:20:43amount about the science about recovery
0:20:43 > 0:20:45and I, essentially, made my own.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48Since then, we've worked with Paralympians
0:20:48 > 0:20:50and elite athletes who help us
0:20:50 > 0:20:54promote our passionately held belief that natural products support
0:20:54 > 0:20:58an athlete and generally the public, just as well as anything synthetic.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00So, our philosophy, basically, is
0:21:00 > 0:21:03no chemicals, just nature, you can't lose.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Thank you. Any questions?
0:21:05 > 0:21:09- Would you like to try some? - Yes, please.- Yes, please. Yeah.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14An invigorating pitch from smooth-talking entrepreneurs
0:21:14 > 0:21:17Rachel Smith and Lynwen Harrison.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22They want £75,000 for a 15% stake in their business.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26- What taste is that? - Raspberry, mint and lime.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32Deborah Meaden is first off the starting block to question
0:21:32 > 0:21:34the sporty entrepreneurs.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38So, great back story, really interesting to hear,
0:21:38 > 0:21:42and that whole thing about you making things for yourself.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45- Were you in Team GB? You are in Team GB.- I still am, yes.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47Yes, I still am. I'm going out in June
0:21:47 > 0:21:49to compete in the European Championships.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52That's fantastic. So, back to the business.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56At the moment, what is the company turning over?
0:21:56 > 0:21:59Well, in the first year, which was only very small,
0:21:59 > 0:22:03it was £1,800 and, to date, it's 9,000.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Where are most of those sales coming from?
0:22:06 > 0:22:07LYNWEN: The indoor climbing market.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12Climbers have absolutely loved this drink because it is low-fat,
0:22:12 > 0:22:17- it's healthy, it's not full of chemicals.- What's its uniqueness?
0:22:17 > 0:22:20- That it is fresh and natural. - That it's fresh and natural.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23- Are there preservatives in this?- RACHEL: Nothing, no.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25Are the fruits used, are they organic?
0:22:25 > 0:22:27- No. They are not organic.- No.
0:22:27 > 0:22:31- There are not organic?- They're not organic but they're all natural.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34- Natural. And any chemicals or anything within that?- No.
0:22:34 > 0:22:35Although there will be
0:22:35 > 0:22:38if they are not organic cos there will be residual...
0:22:38 > 0:22:41In some of the fruit juices that we use, there is citric acid
0:22:41 > 0:22:44in them but we are very careful about who we source and what concentrate...
0:22:44 > 0:22:47We also use concentrates as well
0:22:47 > 0:22:50and we are very careful about who we've been able to source that from.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53And the milk is fresh and the yoghurt is fresh.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55RACHEL: They do have a two-week shelf life
0:22:55 > 0:22:57but how we also work with a lot of the athletes who buy our drinks
0:22:57 > 0:23:02- direct from us is that the drinks can be frozen.- Could I just say...
0:23:02 > 0:23:05Hi, I'm Kelly. I train every day.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07The problem I have with this,
0:23:07 > 0:23:12and I want to like it, is that I'm not crazy about dairy products.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14Let me finish. You've also got...
0:23:14 > 0:23:17You're not using organic fruits,
0:23:17 > 0:23:21you've got a lot of sugar in here and I'm really anti-sugar.
0:23:21 > 0:23:24If I was inventing something for the sports world
0:23:24 > 0:23:27and for nutrition, sugar would not even be on the back.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29How would you get your carbohydrate into a drink then,
0:23:29 > 0:23:31if you're not going to use sugar?
0:23:31 > 0:23:33You have natural sugar or you have agave.
0:23:33 > 0:23:35That's where the natural sugars come from.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39Our sugar in there is lactose, so it's milk sugar.
0:23:39 > 0:23:43It seems as though you haven't been able to create the perfect storm
0:23:43 > 0:23:46you would've liked in terms of ticking all the boxes.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49There were things where it's not fully organic, you know,
0:23:49 > 0:23:51it's got a short shelf-life. It's not quite...
0:23:51 > 0:23:54The organic thing is really interesting because what we've
0:23:54 > 0:23:55tried to do is create a drink
0:23:55 > 0:23:58that is relative back to recovery all the time
0:23:58 > 0:24:01but there isn't any evidence against organic and recovery.
0:24:01 > 0:24:04You cannot say that organic isn't better than not.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06We're not saying that organic isn't better for you,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09we're just saying that when it's relating back to recovery.
0:24:09 > 0:24:14What if the evidence said pouring a lot of chemicals in there made
0:24:14 > 0:24:17- it more effective? Would you do that?- The evidence isn't there.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19- What if it did?- No, because I wouldn't want to...
0:24:19 > 0:24:21I wouldn't want that in my body.
0:24:26 > 0:24:30Intense scrutiny of the product's claimed health benefits.
0:24:30 > 0:24:34Will industry expert Duncan Bannatyne be the Dragon
0:24:34 > 0:24:37to aid the entrepreneurs' recovery?
0:24:37 > 0:24:40Where's your market, Rachel? Where are you going to sell this product?
0:24:40 > 0:24:41Cos you're not selling it now.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45We can sell it in gyms and we can sell it in smaller...
0:24:45 > 0:24:46The climbing industry is growing.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49I own the fifth biggest gym company in the UK.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51So what happened when you approached us?
0:24:51 > 0:24:53We haven't approached you yet, cos what we wanted to do
0:24:53 > 0:24:55was concentrate on the Sheffield area.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57So you're talking about gyms in the Sheffield area.
0:24:57 > 0:25:00- You haven't approached a chain. - No, we haven't.
0:25:00 > 0:25:01Chains in Sheffield
0:25:01 > 0:25:03but we haven't gone outside that cos we wanted to...
0:25:03 > 0:25:06- Which gym chains did you approach in Sheffield?- Virgin.- Right.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08And...
0:25:08 > 0:25:11- Fitness First. - Fitness First.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13So, did they tell you they had a head office buyer
0:25:13 > 0:25:16- and you had to go through the head office?- BOTH: Yes.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19- Did you approach the central buyer? - Virgin, we did, yes.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22And he said that... Cos we gave the team some drinks to try and they
0:25:22 > 0:25:24thought the drinks were fabulous
0:25:24 > 0:25:27but they felt like it conflicted with Powerade
0:25:27 > 0:25:31and they weren't allowed, in terms of their contract, to take anything on.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33So, these are all the problems.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36You can sell it on the climbing frame at the end of your street
0:25:36 > 0:25:39and the gym at the end of the street. That's easy.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42But making it a big business where you send it out to people
0:25:42 > 0:25:45into gyms and premises you have never visited, and don't
0:25:45 > 0:25:47have time to visit, is very, very different.
0:25:47 > 0:25:52You've got to deal with a buyer at head office who can't go and check
0:25:52 > 0:25:56the shelf life and say, "Oh, actually, we had to throw 10% out."
0:25:56 > 0:25:59So, sorry I can't invest in this, cos I think you're both lovely.
0:25:59 > 0:26:03But I'm going to have to say I'm sorry, but I'm out.
0:26:03 > 0:26:06The entrepreneurs have lost a key Dragon
0:26:06 > 0:26:09in health club owner Duncan Bannatyne.
0:26:09 > 0:26:15Now Piers Linney has some concerns with the product's visual appeal.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19I don't get the brand. I don't like the brand or the bottle.
0:26:19 > 0:26:23It doesn't really make me want to drink it. It looks a bit...
0:26:23 > 0:26:24I mean, you're saying it's a natural product.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27You don't get that feeling from it. It looks...
0:26:27 > 0:26:29Looks quite the opposite actually. Like a bottle of chemicals.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32- I can explain the bottle to you. - It looks like drain cleaner.
0:26:32 > 0:26:35- OK.- If I'm honest. - We started off with a clear bottle.
0:26:35 > 0:26:41Our vision was that. But because of the dairy and the fruit in there,
0:26:41 > 0:26:44what happens is it separates, so it doesn't look very
0:26:44 > 0:26:47attractive on the shelf and that's why we went down the opaque route.
0:26:47 > 0:26:50But the fundamental issue is you've got a product that is very hard
0:26:50 > 0:26:53to take to market, in a market that is highly competitive.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55Although you want this to work,
0:26:55 > 0:26:58it's not something I'd invest in so I'm afraid I'm out.
0:26:58 > 0:27:00BOTH: Thank you.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03I need to tell you where I am, because I think it's great that
0:27:03 > 0:27:07you've created a product, fantastic from an athlete's perspective.
0:27:07 > 0:27:08You're looking for something.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13This, sadly, unless you compromise on your product
0:27:13 > 0:27:16and the ingredients, it's doomed.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20It's too short a life span, in terms of two weeks.
0:27:20 > 0:27:21It's...
0:27:21 > 0:27:26It's impossible that any supermarket chain will even consider it.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29- So I'm out.- That's fine. Thank you for your time.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32This is not something that I would invest in.
0:27:33 > 0:27:34Because of the content,
0:27:34 > 0:27:37because I don't quite believe in what you're
0:27:37 > 0:27:41saying in terms of recovery, but I might be a novice and I might
0:27:41 > 0:27:43not know enough, but it's just my gut,
0:27:43 > 0:27:46- which is what I'm going to follow. - That's fine.
0:27:46 > 0:27:51- The evidence is there, so, yeah. - But I wish you luck.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53Any two women that walk in here and have a great idea
0:27:53 > 0:27:57and come up with it and try and sell it, I admire,
0:27:57 > 0:28:01- but I'm not going to invest. For that reason I'm out.- Thank you.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05Four Dragons are out of the race.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08Will Deborah Meaden be an unlikely saviour
0:28:08 > 0:28:10for the rapidly declining pitch?
0:28:14 > 0:28:15That leaves me.
0:28:17 > 0:28:22The product looks great, the colours of it look great,
0:28:22 > 0:28:25and - much more important - it tastes great.
0:28:28 > 0:28:31But I think you are going to struggle getting the national
0:28:31 > 0:28:34distribution that I think you've got the dream of.
0:28:34 > 0:28:39- So, I'm sorry, I'm out.- OK. Thank you so much for your time.- Thank you.
0:28:39 > 0:28:40- Thank you.- Thanks.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45It's all over for the likeable entrepreneurs as their fitness
0:28:45 > 0:28:50drink fails to get over the finish line in the race to invest.
0:28:50 > 0:28:51They leave the Den with nothing.
0:29:01 > 0:29:03So far tonight, our entrepreneurs
0:29:03 > 0:29:06have all had impeccable qualifications...
0:29:06 > 0:29:08I've worked with babies and young children
0:29:08 > 0:29:09and families for over 20 years.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12I got a Team GB selection for triathlon.
0:29:12 > 0:29:13We're scientists.
0:29:13 > 0:29:16..but they've all missed out on investment.
0:29:16 > 0:29:20Will either of these bright business sparks manage to
0:29:20 > 0:29:23secure some Dragon capital?
0:29:23 > 0:29:28The real defining and crowning moment is you.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30I don't how to process that.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34You need to decide here and now, do you want to disclose it
0:29:34 > 0:29:37and we can have a conversation, or do you want to withhold it
0:29:37 > 0:29:39and walk back in that lift?
0:29:51 > 0:29:55First to face the Dragons is a former investment banker who
0:29:55 > 0:29:57has traded in a lucrative career in the City
0:29:57 > 0:30:00in order to start up his own business.
0:30:00 > 0:30:04but will his made-to-measure condoms
0:30:04 > 0:30:07secure an investment from the Dragons?
0:30:16 > 0:30:22Hello, Dragons. My name is Joe Nelson and I am the condom revolutionary.
0:30:22 > 0:30:27In December, 2011, I launched my company, TheyFit.
0:30:27 > 0:30:31TheyFit manufactures and sells directly to consumers
0:30:31 > 0:30:3495 different sizes of male condom.
0:30:34 > 0:30:36We make 14 different lengths,
0:30:36 > 0:30:39starting at just 3 inches all the way up to 9.5 inches,
0:30:39 > 0:30:41and 12 different nominal widths,
0:30:41 > 0:30:46which fits circumferences from 3.5 inches out to 7.5 inches.
0:30:46 > 0:30:49The Family Planning Association tell us
0:30:49 > 0:30:52that currently half of all pregnancies are unplanned.
0:30:52 > 0:30:55The World Health Organisation estimates that every single day
0:30:55 > 0:30:58around the world, one million people
0:30:58 > 0:31:01catch a sexually transmitted infection.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04Now, the male condom goes a long way to addressing both issues
0:31:04 > 0:31:06but only when it is used.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08I am changing people's behaviour
0:31:08 > 0:31:13and attitudes towards their sexual health for the better.
0:31:13 > 0:31:18I have made a condom that men want to wear, rather than need convincing to.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20It has been a pleasure pitching to you.
0:31:20 > 0:31:24Thank you very much for your time. I look forward to your questions.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28An intriguing pitch from Joe Nelson, who is
0:31:28 > 0:31:34looking for £200,000 in return for a 10% stake in his company.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37Piers Linney wants to find out how he can be sure that
0:31:37 > 0:31:42his TheyFit condoms live up to their name.
0:31:44 > 0:31:46Talk me through customising the sizing.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49It is probably best, Piers, to give you one of these.
0:31:49 > 0:31:52I was wondering what you are going to say then. So, this is...
0:31:52 > 0:31:57- That is called a Fit Kit. - Thank you.- Would you like one?
0:31:58 > 0:32:02If you turn it over, the instructions are on the back.
0:32:02 > 0:32:07So, basically, it is a paper ruler, length, circumference,
0:32:07 > 0:32:09and then you can go and buy the right size?
0:32:09 > 0:32:12It is as easy as finding the right size of shoe.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16For essentially 90 years, latex condoms have been sold
0:32:16 > 0:32:20one size fits all, and arguably the biggest reason...
0:32:20 > 0:32:24Joe, that's not right. You can buy condoms in different sizes now.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27- It is not all one size fits all. - It is a common reaction, Duncan,
0:32:27 > 0:32:32but the perception owes more to clever marketing than anything else.
0:32:32 > 0:32:36For example, a popular manufacturer in the UK markets...
0:32:36 > 0:32:37Forget manufacturing.
0:32:37 > 0:32:41You go to Boots and you will see condoms in different sizes.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45You won't find any condom box in the UK that has the exact size
0:32:45 > 0:32:47of the condom in the box.
0:32:47 > 0:32:49I'm not saying they are, but what I am saying is you can't say
0:32:49 > 0:32:52that all the others are one size fits all.
0:32:52 > 0:32:53There are different sizes.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59An exasperated Duncan Bannatyne takes issue
0:32:59 > 0:33:05with the former financier's claim about the uniqueness of his product.
0:33:05 > 0:33:10Now Peter Jones has concerns about Joe's business model.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13I'm surprised that you haven't researched the market
0:33:13 > 0:33:16profitability opportunity over a product like this with such
0:33:16 > 0:33:21wide and varied range, when probably 80% of your sales will
0:33:21 > 0:33:27come from, I would suggest, 10% of the lines that you are introducing.
0:33:27 > 0:33:3190% of the lines that you introduce because you want to be wide
0:33:31 > 0:33:38to the market kills your business model in terms of profitability.
0:33:38 > 0:33:40I'm not sure what consumes cash so much of the business right now.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44It is running and there were, admittedly, some start-up costs,
0:33:44 > 0:33:48but they are kind of sunk costs. The website is a cost...
0:33:48 > 0:33:52You are missing the point. Your issue is going to become,
0:33:52 > 0:33:57when you scale, you have one major fundamental flaw in your business.
0:33:57 > 0:33:59- Which is?- Stock.
0:34:02 > 0:34:05Do you intend to sell this in shops or just online?
0:34:05 > 0:34:08- Just online.- Because you know you can't sell it in a shop because...
0:34:08 > 0:34:10- Shelf space.- The shelf space.
0:34:10 > 0:34:14You'd have 95 in a row and that is where the weakness is in this.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17- That is a weakness. - I don't see it as a weakness, Duncan.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19I see it as...
0:34:19 > 0:34:22People buy condoms from shops through force of habit
0:34:22 > 0:34:23more than anything else.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27If you move purchasing condoms online, you can take your time,
0:34:27 > 0:34:30you can do it in the privacy of your own home, there is no embarrassment,
0:34:30 > 0:34:33or awkwardness. You can do great things like customise the sizing.
0:34:36 > 0:34:40Joe has made a convincing argument for keeping his business online, but
0:34:40 > 0:34:44Kelly Hoppen has doubts about just how viable the whole concept is.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49Durex is probably the biggest condom company.
0:34:49 > 0:34:53- In the UK, yes.- Why would they not have done something like this?
0:34:53 > 0:34:57They're a very successful, they're sold everywhere.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59Why would they not have come up with this idea?
0:34:59 > 0:35:04The problem with this pitch to an established condom manufacturer
0:35:04 > 0:35:07is that to make these is significantly more expensive
0:35:07 > 0:35:09than a traditional condom.
0:35:09 > 0:35:11Condoms are made in one size fits all
0:35:11 > 0:35:16because doing that enables you to make them quickly, reliably,
0:35:16 > 0:35:18but most importantly, cheaply,
0:35:18 > 0:35:22but the key thing missing is satisfaction with using the product.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25But you never hear about people complaining about the size
0:35:25 > 0:35:29of condoms? Women carry condoms in their handbags.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32What, are they going to say, "I don't know, I am going to have
0:35:32 > 0:35:35"a guess on which size I am going to take tonight"?
0:35:35 > 0:35:37- No, not at all. - You could take all 95.
0:35:37 > 0:35:38All I can say to you is,
0:35:38 > 0:35:42I don't like the idea and I am going to tell you where I am.
0:35:42 > 0:35:45- I am definitely out. - I appreciate your time.
0:35:49 > 0:35:53A first Dragon has declined the opportunity to invest
0:35:53 > 0:35:59and with the net loss of £7,500 in his first year of trading,
0:35:59 > 0:36:02Deborah Meaden wants to establish precisely why Joe
0:36:02 > 0:36:07has valued his business at a cool £2 million.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11Obviously the key to the valuation is not sitting in your trading
0:36:11 > 0:36:15figures to date, so it is presumably sitting in the patent?
0:36:15 > 0:36:18Actually, the patent doesn't make me sleep easily at night.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20I was about to say I'd like to see the patent.
0:36:26 > 0:36:28- Thank you. - It covers the system of sizing,
0:36:28 > 0:36:33so any system at all where I communicate to you, the manufacturer,
0:36:33 > 0:36:37or the retailer, the size that I require, that is my patent.
0:36:38 > 0:36:43- The meaning is...- This does not stop other people sizing condoms.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46This stops other people using your method of sizing condoms.
0:36:46 > 0:36:48That is not true.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Any kind of communication from me, the consumer,
0:36:51 > 0:36:54to you, the manufacturer or retailer, that is what that covers.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57It has got to be defined in three dimensions.
0:36:57 > 0:37:01- Well, most reference data for this product is...- No, it isn't.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04Small, medium and large is not defined in three dimensions.
0:37:04 > 0:37:08I guess my point there, Deborah, is that no manufacturer will ever sell small condoms,
0:37:08 > 0:37:12that is never going to sell with a label "small" on them.
0:37:12 > 0:37:16The only bit that might have got my attention is that nobody else
0:37:16 > 0:37:17could size their condoms.
0:37:17 > 0:37:20Well, they can, they just need to use a different system,
0:37:20 > 0:37:25but the real defining and crowning moment is you.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32I don't know how to process that.
0:37:33 > 0:37:37I couldn't work with you because you go into sales mode without
0:37:37 > 0:37:42listening or really taking in the question.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45So, I'm afraid I won't be investing. I'm out.
0:37:49 > 0:37:53Deborah Meaden is convinced neither by the patent nor
0:37:53 > 0:37:56the entrepreneur who holds it.
0:37:56 > 0:37:59Will Piers Linney prove any more willing to offer Joe
0:37:59 > 0:38:04the cash injection his condom business craves?
0:38:04 > 0:38:07There is a market for people that do want a maybe more expensive,
0:38:07 > 0:38:12well-fitted condom and maybe that is your market,
0:38:12 > 0:38:16as opposed to trying to pretend it is a mass-market product.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18We would all like to wear tailored clothing.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21- That is a really great analogy because...- I know it is.
0:38:21 > 0:38:25..Peter's suits, for example, are excellent. The reason I don't wear
0:38:25 > 0:38:30- a suit as great as Peter's, I don't have the money.- That is my point.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33You're going on about suit sizes, it is all irrelevant, Joe.
0:38:33 > 0:38:36- Is it totally irrelevant? - Yes, it is totally irrelevant.
0:38:36 > 0:38:37I don't think it is irrelevant.
0:38:37 > 0:38:41I think a condom that fits is a great thing.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43Isn't it something you just take into that high-end market
0:38:43 > 0:38:46and develop there, and you probably will sell some,
0:38:46 > 0:38:48but the way you sort of pitched it,
0:38:48 > 0:38:51I don't think it is going to work, so I'm afraid I'm out.
0:38:51 > 0:38:52OK. Thank you.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57Three Dragons have now walked away from the deal.
0:38:57 > 0:39:02Time for a straight-talking Duncan Bannatyne to confront Joe
0:39:02 > 0:39:04on some of his bold claims.
0:39:05 > 0:39:08- "I am changing people's behaviour." - Yes.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10"I want to give free condoms to Third World countries."
0:39:10 > 0:39:13Ultimately, once it is profitable enough, yes.
0:39:13 > 0:39:14I think that is a nice aspiration...
0:39:14 > 0:39:18- Anyway, Joe, I am out so there is no point in talking to me any more.- OK.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23- Joe, how do you feel it has gone? - Wonderful.
0:39:23 > 0:39:27It has been thoroughly energising.
0:39:27 > 0:39:31I think the topic matter really puts people on edge, on the defensive.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35You are right, the topic is always open for silly comments.
0:39:35 > 0:39:40The reality is that... your business model is flawed.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44The reason why some of the main brands work is because,
0:39:44 > 0:39:46exactly as you have described, they have economies of scale,
0:39:46 > 0:39:51they fit and reduced their overall skew.
0:39:51 > 0:39:56I do think you will be averagely successful, because it is quirky.
0:39:56 > 0:40:02But this is not an investment and certainly not £2 million,
0:40:02 > 0:40:05so, Joe, I am not going to invest and I am out.
0:40:05 > 0:40:09Thank you very much, Peter. Thank you very much, all of you guys. Cheers.
0:40:11 > 0:40:15So Joe departs without the £200,000 investment he was seeking,
0:40:15 > 0:40:19but at least his visit to the Den seems to have provided him
0:40:19 > 0:40:20with a potential new customer.
0:40:22 > 0:40:27I think I might go and grab one of those 3.5 inch ones.
0:40:29 > 0:40:31I think a lot of people are caught on the back foot
0:40:31 > 0:40:34just by the topic of sex and safe sex.
0:40:34 > 0:40:37Some people think "condom" is some kind of expletive.
0:40:37 > 0:40:40Until we start taking safe sex seriously
0:40:40 > 0:40:43and being able to talk about it openly,
0:40:43 > 0:40:45then we're going to continue to have the problems that we see today.
0:40:49 > 0:40:54The humble patent can have a huge effect on the outcome of a pitch.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56Sometimes it can be a deal clincher
0:40:56 > 0:40:59and other times not worth the paper it is written on.
0:40:59 > 0:41:03This does not stop other people sizing condoms.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08Joe's paperwork fell down under Deborah Meaden's forensic
0:41:08 > 0:41:12scrutiny and he is not the only entrepreneur to suffer that fate.
0:41:12 > 0:41:14Have you got the patent with you?
0:41:14 > 0:41:16I might want to see that letter of intent.
0:41:16 > 0:41:19You cannot just give somebody a piece of paper that says
0:41:19 > 0:41:20this is what is in it.
0:41:20 > 0:41:24There is absolutely no way that I can tell from that
0:41:24 > 0:41:25whether or not this is gluten-free.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32The straight-talking businesswoman is renowned for her ability
0:41:32 > 0:41:36to get to the nitty-gritty, so woe betide the entrepreneur
0:41:36 > 0:41:39who does not give her questions straight answers.
0:41:39 > 0:41:40Do you know what?
0:41:40 > 0:41:45When I ask you what your turnover is going to be, it is a lot better
0:41:45 > 0:41:50if you tell me what your turnover is going to be. How many have you sold?
0:41:50 > 0:41:52We got off to a bit of a difficult start with it...
0:41:52 > 0:41:57Duncan, I was kind of expecting a number because how many usually...
0:41:57 > 0:42:01We have not really actively promoted the product this year. We simply...
0:42:01 > 0:42:04- Is a number coming any time soon? - OK. 70.
0:42:04 > 0:42:08It would be really easy to have yes or no answers.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10And if you resist those questions it just makes me
0:42:10 > 0:42:13feel like you are trying to hide stuff.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15She is always a force to be reckoned with
0:42:15 > 0:42:19and you really don't want to get on the wrong side of Deborah Meaden.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22I'm irritated. Yes, I am blinking irritated.
0:42:22 > 0:42:27I'm really surprised at you not coming up with actual fact.
0:42:27 > 0:42:29Please stop talking over the end of my...
0:42:29 > 0:42:31Sorry, I didn't realise you'd not finished.
0:42:31 > 0:42:36When there are words coming out of my mouth, I am still talking, yes?
0:42:37 > 0:42:42But impress her and she can be an entrepreneur's greatest ally.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44Sometimes, you know, I just invest in somebody
0:42:44 > 0:42:48- because I think you come across really very well.- Thank you.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52Whatever else happens in this pitch, that is blinking marvellous.
0:42:52 > 0:42:54Thank you.
0:42:54 > 0:42:57I'll tell you what I really like about you, you know
0:42:57 > 0:43:00exactly where you are and I think you are bang on.
0:43:00 > 0:43:02Thank you and thank you for settling my nerves.
0:43:02 > 0:43:06You are the first person that's ever felt that in front of Deborah.
0:43:06 > 0:43:07I appreciate it.
0:43:13 > 0:43:17There is a price comparison website for everything these days,
0:43:17 > 0:43:21so is there money to be made by adding another one?
0:43:21 > 0:43:24Next into the lift is Amir Hassan with his idea to help you
0:43:24 > 0:43:26shop around for minicabs.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29Will he be the latest to drive home an investment?
0:44:04 > 0:44:07Hello, everyone. My name is Amir Hassan
0:44:07 > 0:44:10and I am here today with my business, minicabit.com.
0:44:10 > 0:44:16We are looking for a £75,000 investment in return for a 15%
0:44:16 > 0:44:17share in the business.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23Every year, ten million trips are taken by cab out of town,
0:44:23 > 0:44:27all pretty much booked on the phone. And yet every day,
0:44:27 > 0:44:31people across the UK are still having to sift through cards
0:44:31 > 0:44:33and phone books dumped on their doormats,
0:44:33 > 0:44:37having to gather phone numbers to call cab offices just to get a quote.
0:44:37 > 0:44:42MinicabIt aims to make all of that a thing of the past.
0:44:42 > 0:44:46Now you can book a trip to the airport, a meeting, a concert,
0:44:46 > 0:44:48a night out, or even a visit to your grandma
0:44:48 > 0:44:51in just a MinicabIt moment.
0:44:51 > 0:44:53With our website and our mobile app, you can
0:44:53 > 0:44:57instantly compare real-time quotes from a range of licensed
0:44:57 > 0:45:00minicab providers across the UK.
0:45:00 > 0:45:04The cab providers set the rates on our system.
0:45:04 > 0:45:07The customer then pays for the fare in full on our site
0:45:07 > 0:45:11and then once the trip is completed, we pay the cab provider, deducting
0:45:11 > 0:45:15a 10% commission and a £1 booking fee in the process.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18And that is why without any PR and marketing, we have already
0:45:18 > 0:45:23attracted 100 licensed minicab operators across the UK
0:45:23 > 0:45:24into our network.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27Last month, £10,000 worth of bookings was placed through
0:45:27 > 0:45:31MinicabIt and we will add a few zeros to that with your investment.
0:45:31 > 0:45:32Thank you.
0:45:36 > 0:45:41A confident pitch from former mobile phone technology man Amir Hassan.
0:45:41 > 0:45:46So, you are going from Manchester to, let's say, Stoke-on-Trent.
0:45:46 > 0:45:49His price comparison website and app promises to get
0:45:49 > 0:45:52the best deals on out-of-town taxi journeys.
0:45:52 > 0:45:55You just simply enter your card details
0:45:55 > 0:45:57and then you can book your cab.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00But with the meter running on Amir's time in the Den,
0:46:00 > 0:46:03Duncan Bannatyne wants to get straight down to business.
0:46:05 > 0:46:07You said, "We," a few times.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10Was that a royal "we" or do you have a partner or investors?
0:46:10 > 0:46:15I own 84%, however, I am actually setting aside 8% of that
0:46:15 > 0:46:20as an equity options pool for the current and incoming team members.
0:46:20 > 0:46:25Then I have Ed who owns about 8%, he is like a commercial adviser,
0:46:25 > 0:46:30and then I have a corporate investor as well.
0:46:30 > 0:46:32And that corporate investor owns how much?
0:46:32 > 0:46:36- 7.5%.- So who are the corporates?
0:46:36 > 0:46:42The corporate investor, it's a major telecoms company. They don't wish...
0:46:42 > 0:46:48- Would you have worked for them in the past? Possibly?- Possibly.- OK.
0:46:48 > 0:46:56And... Or possibly not. They don't wish to be named.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59It doesn't matter. If you've come in for investment...
0:46:59 > 0:47:02it's a bit like saying, "I've got a promise of £200,000."
0:47:02 > 0:47:04"Oh, who is that from?" "I can't tell you."
0:47:04 > 0:47:06Well, if I say it is one of the mobile phone operators...
0:47:06 > 0:47:09It doesn't help me.
0:47:09 > 0:47:13You need to decide here and now, do you want to disclose it
0:47:13 > 0:47:14and we can have a conversation,
0:47:14 > 0:47:17or do you want to withhold it and walk back in the lift?
0:47:19 > 0:47:20- It's O2.- OK.
0:47:20 > 0:47:24Are they going to target their customer base with your app?
0:47:24 > 0:47:27It's actually working with them on a Priority Moments offer.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29And what does that mean?
0:47:29 > 0:47:30So, customers, for instance,
0:47:30 > 0:47:34if they are going to a particular concert or a particular venue,
0:47:34 > 0:47:37they can see an offer might be £5 off your first booking
0:47:37 > 0:47:40through MinicabIt, and they will see that offer.
0:47:40 > 0:47:43What is your forecast profit this year?
0:47:43 > 0:47:46With investment, we aim to do
0:47:46 > 0:47:50£669,000 of gross booking revenue,
0:47:50 > 0:47:54so that's a £52,000 gross profit.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00- Net profit?- Net profit, so in the first year,
0:48:00 > 0:48:04- would be a loss of £48,500. - Thank you.
0:48:07 > 0:48:10Relief for the entrepreneur as he survives
0:48:10 > 0:48:13a grilling from Peter Jones.
0:48:13 > 0:48:16But there is something troubling Kelly Hoppen.
0:48:18 > 0:48:21I have a bit of a problem with minicabs per se
0:48:21 > 0:48:26because they have a... They have had a very bad reputation.
0:48:26 > 0:48:29How do you know that the companies that you are putting
0:48:29 > 0:48:35under your brand are going to match who you want to be in the market?
0:48:35 > 0:48:37Sure.
0:48:37 > 0:48:41First of all, we check that they are licensed and so on, and we have that
0:48:41 > 0:48:44opportunity for customers to rate the drivers and the cabs and so on.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47The other important thing is we hold the money,
0:48:47 > 0:48:49so if there is an issue with the booking,
0:48:49 > 0:48:51that really sharpens the performance of the cab firm.
0:48:51 > 0:48:55I'm not excited by it and if I am going to invest in something,
0:48:55 > 0:48:57not only does it have to be a business proposition,
0:48:57 > 0:49:02but I have to want to be involved in it, so I am going to say
0:49:02 > 0:49:03I am out very early because
0:49:03 > 0:49:06it is just not something I would invest in.
0:49:06 > 0:49:07Thank you.
0:49:09 > 0:49:13If I was going to invest in a business like this, I would
0:49:13 > 0:49:17invest in yours because I think you can do it, but it is a punt.
0:49:17 > 0:49:21So, because of that and that reason only,
0:49:21 > 0:49:23I am not going to invest but I wish you the best of luck
0:49:23 > 0:49:27and I think there is a good chance you will make it, but I am out.
0:49:27 > 0:49:28Thank you, Duncan.
0:49:30 > 0:49:35Amir is two Dragons down as Kelly Hoppen and Duncan Bannatyne
0:49:35 > 0:49:38take themselves out of the investment loop.
0:49:38 > 0:49:42Now Peter Jones is ready to declare his decision.
0:49:47 > 0:49:50I think you are very good and...
0:49:50 > 0:49:53I think you have created a very lean business model,
0:49:53 > 0:49:56and you have a product that has an opportunity to make it.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59I think it is clever, you have brought a network
0:49:59 > 0:50:01and got a network involved.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06I'm going to make you an offer.
0:50:07 > 0:50:14And I am going to offer you all of the money, £75,000,
0:50:14 > 0:50:17but I want 40% of the business.
0:50:19 > 0:50:21OK. Thank you.
0:50:23 > 0:50:27Telecoms giant Peter Jones' offer is on the table,
0:50:27 > 0:50:29but with a hefty price tag.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34He wants 25% more equity than the entrepreneur is offering.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37Which way will Deborah Meaden go?
0:50:37 > 0:50:41Well, I have to say...
0:50:41 > 0:50:44I think there is certainly legs in this.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49I'm going to make you an offer.
0:50:49 > 0:50:52And it is going to put you in a predicament because I am
0:50:52 > 0:50:55going to make you the same offer as Mr Jones down there, so I am
0:50:55 > 0:50:59going to offer you all of the money but I want 40% of the business.
0:50:59 > 0:51:02Thank you. Thank you, Deborah.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07Two identical offers on the table,
0:51:07 > 0:51:11both for more equity than Amir had planned on giving away.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14Now Piers Linney is the last Dragon in the race.
0:51:16 > 0:51:20Amir, I think you are going to need to raise more money at some point,
0:51:20 > 0:51:24whether it is to accelerate growth or maybe things did not go quite to
0:51:24 > 0:51:29plan, sometimes they don't, maybe not huge amounts, but who knows?
0:51:29 > 0:51:34So I think you need to be incentivised, and your team too.
0:51:34 > 0:51:38So I am also going to make you an offer, so all the money...
0:51:38 > 0:51:40but for 30%.
0:51:42 > 0:51:44Thank you, Piers.
0:51:48 > 0:51:50- Can I take a moment to think? PETER:- Yeah.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58By going in with a better offer,
0:51:58 > 0:52:01Piers Linney has made a potentially game-changing move.
0:52:03 > 0:52:06Can the entrepreneur turn the situation to his advantage?
0:52:16 > 0:52:17First of all, thank you for your offers
0:52:17 > 0:52:20and thank you for listening to me as well.
0:52:20 > 0:52:25I would like to ask, first of all, would you be open to all
0:52:25 > 0:52:29three of you co-investing in MinicabIt and bringing your range
0:52:29 > 0:52:33of expertise to what is going to be a very fantastic opportunity?
0:52:33 > 0:52:36I wouldn't, Amir, and I will tell you why.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38Sometimes you can get too much advice in a business.
0:52:38 > 0:52:42You're going to have too many voices and too many people chipping in,
0:52:42 > 0:52:49- so I personally would not be part of a trio of three Dragons.- OK.
0:52:50 > 0:52:54Would you be willing to come down on your percentages,
0:52:54 > 0:52:56Peter and Deborah, at all?
0:52:56 > 0:53:00If we were to do something - I don't know whether Deborah would accept -
0:53:00 > 0:53:04but if there was something where I shared an investment with Deborah,
0:53:04 > 0:53:07for example, you've got the power of two,
0:53:07 > 0:53:11- then I would be prepared to drop to 15%.- Yeah.
0:53:11 > 0:53:14In other words, I would give you back 5%
0:53:14 > 0:53:18if you proved the business model in the next 12 months.
0:53:18 > 0:53:23So, you are saying 15% each, subject to hitting a certain target?
0:53:23 > 0:53:25No, we are saying 20% each,
0:53:25 > 0:53:31but if you hit the targets which you have given us here today...
0:53:31 > 0:53:35- I would hand back 5%, Peter would hand back 5%.- Yeah.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39Do you have any thoughts on that, Piers?
0:53:43 > 0:53:47It gets too complicated, doesn't it?
0:53:47 > 0:53:50It depends, you seem to want more than one Dragon, isn't it?
0:53:50 > 0:53:53That's what you seem to be pitching for.
0:53:53 > 0:53:55You want a boardroom full of people, don't you?
0:53:55 > 0:54:00- It's about building a coalition of experts.- Right.
0:54:00 > 0:54:05So, my offer is the same offer, 30% for all of the money, fixed,
0:54:05 > 0:54:08no messing about, whether you hit your targets or not.
0:54:10 > 0:54:12It is a tough one.
0:54:12 > 0:54:17Should Amir choose Piers Linney's financially better offer,
0:54:17 > 0:54:19or go for the power of two Dragons?
0:54:20 > 0:54:26But the entrepreneur has not finished negotiating yet.
0:54:26 > 0:54:32My concern really is, I'll be open, I think 40% is very strong...
0:54:34 > 0:54:38..and I am not that comfortable with ratchets,
0:54:38 > 0:54:42just because I am so invested in it already
0:54:42 > 0:54:44and I actually think it could do it a disservice.
0:54:44 > 0:54:48If, for whatever reason, we do not hit that metric,
0:54:48 > 0:54:54you have got a key man who feels punished, so...
0:54:54 > 0:54:56I like your offer, Piers...
0:54:58 > 0:55:03If you can both move to as close to 30% as possible
0:55:03 > 0:55:08without a ratchet, then I'd be comfortable with that.
0:55:10 > 0:55:12This is an unusual scene in the Den -
0:55:12 > 0:55:16an entrepreneur who is in the driving seat of the negotiations.
0:55:16 > 0:55:19Has Amir done enough to convince Deborah Meaden
0:55:19 > 0:55:22and Peter Jones to drop their conditions?
0:55:26 > 0:55:33I would revise my offer and it will sit between Piers' offer
0:55:33 > 0:55:36and my original offer, and this will be it.
0:55:36 > 0:55:43So I will offer you half of the money, so that's 37,500, for...
0:55:45 > 0:55:50- ..17.5% of the business.- Thank you.
0:55:53 > 0:55:59- Would you be interested in matching that?- Erm...I would.
0:55:59 > 0:56:01I would match that offer.
0:56:08 > 0:56:12I am not going to move where I am. My 30% still stands.
0:56:14 > 0:56:18But I do want to sort of... I am quite keen to invest with you.
0:56:34 > 0:56:38OK. So, I've decided...
0:56:38 > 0:56:42Piers, thank you for your offer.
0:56:42 > 0:56:45It's a small world and hopefully we will deal with each other again,
0:56:45 > 0:56:49- but I would like to accept Deborah and Peter's offer.- Excellent!
0:56:49 > 0:56:52Thank you. APPLAUSE
0:56:52 > 0:56:53Thank you.
0:56:53 > 0:56:55Amir has done it.
0:56:55 > 0:56:57It took guts to negotiate with the Dragons,
0:56:57 > 0:57:01but it was worth it in the end and the plucky entrepreneur leaves
0:57:01 > 0:57:05the Den with two well-connected businesspeople on board.
0:57:08 > 0:57:12I saw Piers was really enthusiastic and I thought, "Great,"
0:57:12 > 0:57:16but deep down, I always wanted Deborah and I wanted Peter
0:57:16 > 0:57:19and I thought between them, they can cover more bases.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22Time will tell if it was the right decision or whether I should've gone
0:57:22 > 0:57:25with the sweeter deal that Piers was offering,
0:57:25 > 0:57:27but, you know, being an entrepreneur is all about taking risks.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39A dramatic finale there.
0:57:39 > 0:57:40Have you noticed that relatively few
0:57:40 > 0:57:45entrepreneurs in the Den have the nerve to say no to the Dragons?
0:57:45 > 0:57:49So all credit to Amir Hassan for proving you can negotiate
0:57:49 > 0:57:51with them, however formidable they appear.
0:57:51 > 0:57:54Which brings the day to a close.
0:57:54 > 0:57:56The conversation about all of tonight's pitches
0:57:56 > 0:58:00continues on Twitter, using the hashtag #dragonsden.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03Next time in the Den -
0:58:03 > 0:58:06Tell me what the numbers are and I will tell you if they are modest.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08About 395.
0:58:08 > 0:58:12- Were you looking at your hand? - No, it is a tattoo!
0:58:12 > 0:58:16I'm as excited about this as I would be to invest in an ejector seat
0:58:16 > 0:58:20- in a helicopter.- You invented a faster way of writing on parchment
0:58:20 > 0:58:22with a quill the day before the printing press was invented.
0:58:22 > 0:58:26With all the PR that you've had, I would've thought that you
0:58:26 > 0:58:29would've had a much more successful business by now.
0:58:29 > 0:58:32Calm down.