0:00:27 > 0:00:29These are the Dragons.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Wealthy...
0:00:31 > 0:00:33well-connected...
0:00:33 > 0:00:34innovative...
0:00:34 > 0:00:35and influential.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39Each week, they make or break
0:00:39 > 0:00:42the dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46Tell me what the numbers are and I'll tell you if they're modest.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49- Uh, about 395.- Sorry, you're looking at your hand!
0:00:49 > 0:00:51No! No, that's a tattoo, that is!
0:00:51 > 0:00:54I'm the type of guy that would go for something like this...
0:00:54 > 0:00:57..cos I think you're onto something.
0:00:57 > 0:00:59There's two things that have been discussed that wind me up.
0:00:59 > 0:01:02"You know, this is the way it's done and that's the way the market is..."
0:01:02 > 0:01:04It's just nonsense.
0:01:04 > 0:01:05With all the PR that you've had,
0:01:05 > 0:01:08I would have thought that you would have had a much more
0:01:08 > 0:01:10successful business by now.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Calm down. Settle.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden...
0:01:20 > 0:01:22telecoms giant Peter Jones...
0:01:24 > 0:01:28and hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30have, between them, struck deals
0:01:30 > 0:01:32worth more than £7 million in the Den.
0:01:34 > 0:01:38But, ready to fight for the next shrewd investment is the creator of
0:01:38 > 0:01:42her own world-renowned interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46And cloud computing pioneer Piers Linney.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52The multi-millionaires will give each entrepreneur just three minutes
0:01:52 > 0:01:55to pitch their idea and then interrogate them
0:01:55 > 0:01:57on every aspect of their business.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01To face them takes nerve and vision.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03So, who will leave with the Dragons' money?
0:02:11 > 0:02:16Welcome to Dragons' Den, where five self-made millionaires decide
0:02:16 > 0:02:18whether to invest in the business dreams
0:02:18 > 0:02:20of promising entrepreneurs.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24Now, Banksy might be the only graffiti artist that you or I
0:02:24 > 0:02:28have heard of, but, our first entrepreneur David Brown
0:02:28 > 0:02:31is convinced there's real money to be made by bringing
0:02:31 > 0:02:34urban street art right into our homes.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00Right. My name's David Brown.
0:03:00 > 0:03:07Uh...I'm here to ask for £70,000 investment for my brand
0:03:07 > 0:03:09and business idea, Graffiti Artist.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11So, I know it's a little bit weird,
0:03:11 > 0:03:15but if you wouldn't mind closing your eyes and watch that money as well.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Yeah, I'd stash it, mate. Two minutes, yeah. You ready?
0:03:27 > 0:03:28HE SIGHS
0:03:30 > 0:03:32HE SHAKES CAN There you go, mate.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36So, what this is, is my product, stick 'em ups.
0:03:36 > 0:03:39So, it's a piece of graffiti art which has been
0:03:39 > 0:03:40generated from a computer.
0:03:40 > 0:03:45Some of the investment that I'm asking for is towards an app
0:03:45 > 0:03:48and a computer programme
0:03:48 > 0:03:50so that you could put your name or your kids' name
0:03:50 > 0:03:54or your kids can put their name into a programme
0:03:54 > 0:03:57and then they can manipulate it and colour it however they want
0:03:57 > 0:04:00and then they can order it and get it printed out.
0:04:00 > 0:04:05And what it is, like, it's using my alphabets at the moment,
0:04:05 > 0:04:08but what I hope to do is maybe use alphabets
0:04:08 > 0:04:12and artwork from other graffiti artists who haven't been as lucky as me,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15haven't had the chance to, you know, be able to sell it to
0:04:15 > 0:04:16the masses - hopefully.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19That's the feel-good factor about graffiti artists as well,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22so it's my idea of giving something back.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26So, hopefully, you can help that happen by giving me some money.
0:04:26 > 0:04:27Cheers! Thank you.
0:04:30 > 0:04:34A charismatic pitch from the Birmingham-based entrepreneur.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38David's looking for a £70,000 investment for his
0:04:38 > 0:04:41online design-at-home graffiti art business.
0:04:41 > 0:04:45But, despite his charm, he's missed something out.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50Um, you asked for £70,000. What was the percentage you...?
0:04:50 > 0:04:53Um, to get it back over the three years, with 20%...
0:04:53 > 0:05:00I can't remember what the word is. Mark up, or whatever.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Um, I mean, I think it's a great idea.
0:05:02 > 0:05:04I mean, wallpaper is a huge industry today.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10I have wallpaper, it's risen over the last 15 years uncontrollably,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13but, the idea of graffiti...
0:05:13 > 0:05:15I just don't... I don't know how marketable it is.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17Well, the sort of target, I think,
0:05:17 > 0:05:22for this is like from about seven up until about 13 or 14.
0:05:22 > 0:05:26Kids seeing their beds, you know, like, "Oh, I want a Spider-Man room.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29"I want a Hulk bedroom. I want a Hello Kitty bedroom," or something.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32Now, there's a chance that they could have a graffiti art bedroom.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35I totally get it and I've actually employed graffiti artists to
0:05:35 > 0:05:37do graffiti in kids' bedrooms.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39I mean, I know that kids love it.
0:05:39 > 0:05:4270 grand and we can do it, man, I'm telling you.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48There may be untapped demand for graffiti wallpaper.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52But Piers Linney's unconvinced this entrepreneur can scale up
0:05:52 > 0:05:54his skills to the mass market.
0:05:56 > 0:06:00David, to me, what you've put on the wall there is still quite artistic.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03You've done this, you can see your creative juices flowing there,
0:06:03 > 0:06:07but to replicate that to an app as you know is very difficult,
0:06:07 > 0:06:10so, if I was to try and create something for my daughter's
0:06:10 > 0:06:12wall, what would it look like?
0:06:12 > 0:06:16- And I'm pretty sure it wouldn't look anything like that.- No, it's...
0:06:16 > 0:06:18It'd probably look like my daughter did it.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20Yeah, I can see your point, definitely.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22Like, uh, it's not as hard as you think.
0:06:22 > 0:06:24I mean, you'd be surprised at how...
0:06:24 > 0:06:27people...if you sit down and do it, especially on a tablet,
0:06:27 > 0:06:30that you can sit down and take your time and mess about with it.
0:06:30 > 0:06:34So, there's no-one at your end designing it, no-one employed,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37- no-one involved, and they do it themselves?- Yeah.- That's really what
0:06:37 > 0:06:39- you're trying to do?- Exactly what I'm after, yeah.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44David's style might be unorthodox,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47but so far his idea is standing up to scrutiny.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52But Duncan Bannatyne still wants to know how urban art can be
0:06:52 > 0:06:54turned into pounds, shillings and pence.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58- Once they've designed it, say something that size...- Yeah.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02- What does it cost me?- Yeah, £99. - Just for something that size?
0:07:03 > 0:07:06So, this is a lot of money, £70,000. How do you intend to pay that back
0:07:06 > 0:07:08or give the investor a return?
0:07:08 > 0:07:14Uh, yeah, by selling loads of these and doing the brand as well,
0:07:14 > 0:07:19cos my sort of figures that I've got, um, are quite modest as well.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23Whether...I don't know. Modest-ish, anyway. Um, but, like, they're not...
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Tell me what the numbers are and I'll tell you if they're modest.
0:07:26 > 0:07:27Uh...uh...
0:07:27 > 0:07:29I mean, gross profit, first year, I mean,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32it makes a loss of ten grand in the first year.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36But, on the second one, looking at gross profit of about 237
0:07:36 > 0:07:39- and then, like, with a... - What do you mean, 237?
0:07:39 > 0:07:41- Sorry, you're looking at your hand! - No, no, that's a tattoo!
0:07:41 > 0:07:44You have definitely got it tattooed on your hand!
0:07:44 > 0:07:48- What's the chance of that! - Is it £2.37? £23.70?
0:07:48 > 0:07:50- 237,000.- 237,000?!
0:07:50 > 0:07:54- Yeah, yeah.- In the second year from a £10,000 loss?
0:07:54 > 0:07:56- That's turnover sort of thing. - Turnover?!
0:07:56 > 0:08:00- Yeah.- So, remind us - 10, is that a turnover or profit?
0:08:00 > 0:08:03No, no, no...the turnover...the gross profit is about £71,000
0:08:03 > 0:08:08- and then a minus 10...- OK, so, in the first year, 71K and you lose 10,000.
0:08:08 > 0:08:13- Yeah.- In the second year, your turnover's £237,000.- Yeah.
0:08:13 > 0:08:18- How much do you make?- Uh, 37. - 37,000.- Yeah.- And in the third year?
0:08:18 > 0:08:20About 395.
0:08:21 > 0:08:22Turnover.
0:08:22 > 0:08:24- Uh...- Do you want to just come over here with your arm
0:08:24 > 0:08:27and show Duncan what you've got tattooed on it?!
0:08:27 > 0:08:29Then 219,000.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33Huh! So, you're going to increase your turnover on the third year by
0:08:33 > 0:08:38100,000 and increase your profit by 180,000 or 190,000.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41Yeah, cos it's not just the stick 'em ups that I'm doing, I'm going to...
0:08:41 > 0:08:44I think what I need to do is give you a job as my finance director.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46You're going to make a lot of money!
0:08:46 > 0:08:48THEY LAUGH
0:08:48 > 0:08:50- David.- Yeah.
0:08:50 > 0:08:51- Do you know who I am?- Yeah.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54Peter someone...
0:08:54 > 0:08:56DUNCAN ROARS WITH LAUGHTER
0:08:56 > 0:09:00- That's good. - Hold on, I've got it written down.
0:09:00 > 0:09:02Yeah, Peter Jones, yeah, how are you, mate?
0:09:02 > 0:09:05I'm very good, David, thank you. Um...
0:09:05 > 0:09:07..just going into the detail, you said earlier that
0:09:07 > 0:09:11what's really important to you is about giving back.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16- What do you think's really important to me?- Getting back.
0:09:16 > 0:09:20- So, if I gave you £70,000...- Yeah.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24..if your most fundamental thing in your life is to prove
0:09:24 > 0:09:27that you can help others and give it back...
0:09:27 > 0:09:32What use is that to me to finance this philanthropic little vision
0:09:32 > 0:09:35that you've got of your life to make yourself feel better?
0:09:35 > 0:09:38Well, you're invested...I don't want it as a gift or anything like that,
0:09:38 > 0:09:41but honestly, I mean, we can make a difference and do it in a good way
0:09:41 > 0:09:45and still make money out of it, but I didn't want to come in here, first of
0:09:45 > 0:09:47all and say, "I'm going to make you a load of money."
0:09:47 > 0:09:50- That'd be a bit rude, so... - It doesn't sound rude to me.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54Trust me, it's not rude. It's not rude, that's exactly what we want.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56No, it is. I get your point though.
0:09:58 > 0:10:02Peter Jones is showing patience with the entrepreneur
0:10:02 > 0:10:04and his social conscience.
0:10:04 > 0:10:08But Deborah Meaden wants to refocus the pitch back onto business.
0:10:08 > 0:10:13I want to get serious, because you're very charming,
0:10:13 > 0:10:17I have to tell you, and, when you deliver, you're very likeable.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20What I'm not getting is a business proposition at all and I'm about
0:10:20 > 0:10:25to lose my interest unless you can deliver that to me really quickly.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27Yeah.
0:10:27 > 0:10:32I mean, um, it's...the exciting bit is being able to, um...
0:10:33 > 0:10:37..uh, empower other artists who can't...you know, who struggle,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40and don't want to waste that talent that they've got.
0:10:40 > 0:10:41Trying to put them on the right track
0:10:41 > 0:10:43so they keep away from illegal stuff...
0:10:43 > 0:10:48David, that's lovely, but that's not the business proposition.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51Yeah, I understand, yeah, definitely.
0:10:51 > 0:10:55I mean, I'm confident that there's enough people out there,
0:10:55 > 0:10:57young people or old people...
0:10:57 > 0:11:00You can be confident, but you've got to make me confident.
0:11:00 > 0:11:02In the Den, it's your job, David,
0:11:02 > 0:11:05and I'm saying this cos it's important that you get this right,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08otherwise you'll walk out of here certainly without
0:11:08 > 0:11:09an investment from me.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Now, right now I see a lovely guy with a lot of talent
0:11:12 > 0:11:17and a great idea, but I don't see a business proposition.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19That includes numbers, that tells me...
0:11:19 > 0:11:21You tell me that I've been to see the guy,
0:11:21 > 0:11:23it's going to cost me that much to develop the app,
0:11:23 > 0:11:26the next phase on is to do that, then I'm going to need to
0:11:26 > 0:11:28employ people...is there anything like that?
0:11:29 > 0:11:34Uh, I haven't approached and sat down with an app producer
0:11:34 > 0:11:37and said, "This is what I'm after, how much is this going to cost?" I...
0:11:37 > 0:11:38Stop.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41I've done it...
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Do you know, you haven't done the most fundamental,
0:11:44 > 0:11:48basic thing, which is to sit down with somebody and say,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51"Can this be done?" This is not my failure to understand, this is
0:11:51 > 0:11:54- your failure to present me with a business proposition.- Yeah.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58I'm just left with no reason to invest,
0:11:58 > 0:12:00so, I'm really sorry, David, but I'm out.
0:12:04 > 0:12:07The joking's over and the entrepreneur is
0:12:07 > 0:12:11reminded of the potential brutality of the Den in the starkest terms.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Have the other Dragons also lost their patience?
0:12:18 > 0:12:21David, thank you very much. It was a very entertaining pitch.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24But I'm not going to invest in this. I can't, so I'm out.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26- OK, no worries.- Thank you very much.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30Well, I think there's something in it that's quite interesting,
0:12:30 > 0:12:34but a lot of your target market probably can't afford this, so,
0:12:34 > 0:12:38I think, for that reason, I can't invest in your company, so I'm out.
0:12:39 > 0:12:44David, I mean, I have to say, the longer I sit here, there is
0:12:44 > 0:12:45a side of me that would love to invest
0:12:45 > 0:12:49because I can see the potential, but it's too risky.
0:12:49 > 0:12:53What you should do is go and take some of these graffiti artists
0:12:53 > 0:12:57and become almost like an agent and produce these, sell them on a
0:12:57 > 0:12:59website and see what volume you're going to get,
0:12:59 > 0:13:02because that will give you an indication of
0:13:02 > 0:13:05whether it's actually what people want to put in their homes.
0:13:05 > 0:13:09I just don't feel that I want to invest £70,000 on something,
0:13:09 > 0:13:13which just...you haven't come in with enough information.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Um...and so, for that reason, I'm sorry, but I'm out.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24Only one dragon remains...
0:13:26 > 0:13:30..the tycoon whose name David struggled to remember.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32But Peter Jones has, in the past,
0:13:32 > 0:13:36taken a gamble with entrepreneurs brave enough to show personality.
0:13:41 > 0:13:42You are David Brown, aren't you?
0:13:42 > 0:13:46- Yeah, a graffiti artist, that's the brand.- You're not Banksy.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48I knew this was going to come up!
0:13:48 > 0:13:51If you were, seriously, if Banksy had come in the Den ten years ago...
0:13:51 > 0:13:56- Yeah.- And pitched the way you've pitched today, I would literally...
0:13:56 > 0:13:58put a flea in his ear and tell him to get out
0:13:58 > 0:14:00and think he's being an absolute idiot.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03And...
0:14:03 > 0:14:04I would have made...
0:14:04 > 0:14:06the biggest mistake of my life.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11I'm the type of guy that would go for something like this...
0:14:13 > 0:14:15..cos I think you're onto something.
0:14:20 > 0:14:22But...
0:14:22 > 0:14:25I hate to say, because you are an incredibly nice bloke,
0:14:25 > 0:14:29I wish you'd come in here with just one or two little bits of research.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33So I'm going to say good luck to you, but I'm not going to invest.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36- I'm out.- Thank you very much for... - No, I wish you every bit of luck,
0:14:36 > 0:14:39but don't spray anything in our lift on your way out, will you?
0:14:39 > 0:14:42No, no, I won't! No, officer, there's no cameras out there anyway.
0:14:42 > 0:14:43We'll be watching.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49So near, yet so far for David.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52He leaves the Den without the investment he wanted to create
0:14:52 > 0:14:57a business that takes his graffiti art into bedrooms across the country.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02People like that, though, that I'd love to find ways to invest in.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04I liked him. I liked him a lot.
0:15:05 > 0:15:07I really don't think...
0:15:07 > 0:15:12they were that interested and I can't wait for them to go home
0:15:12 > 0:15:14and their kids to say to them,
0:15:14 > 0:15:17"I can't believe you didn't invest in the graffiti geezer!"
0:15:17 > 0:15:19So, oh, well. That's their fault.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26While some entrepreneurs haven't the foggiest who the Dragons are...
0:15:26 > 0:15:28- Do you know who I am?- Peter someone.
0:15:28 > 0:15:33..there are others who come into the Den with one Dragon on their mind...
0:15:33 > 0:15:37You're the Dragon that I wished, because of your expertise in the law.
0:15:37 > 0:15:38Don't tell me somebody's suing you!
0:15:38 > 0:15:42..like this Australian-based duo who want to want to launch
0:15:42 > 0:15:44a new fitness gadget.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47The product itself is designed with a special waxy plastic that
0:15:47 > 0:15:50enables smooth movement in almost all surfaces.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53And they had in their sights Duncan Bannatyne
0:15:53 > 0:15:55with his chain of health clubs.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58I suppose, really, I'll have to do this at a trial, won't I?
0:15:58 > 0:16:01- But I don't really know if I want to.- Go on, Duncan.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04Also, it would demonstrate whether old people can use it as well.
0:16:04 > 0:16:05Go for it, man!
0:16:05 > 0:16:06Come on, Duncy!
0:16:06 > 0:16:12- Go for it?- Yeah, go for it. Back together.- Oh. Oh!- Ten more, Duncan.
0:16:14 > 0:16:17Or this Cornish entrepreneur who's devised a new take
0:16:17 > 0:16:19on the horse blanket.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22Our rugs are specifically designed to stop horses going through
0:16:22 > 0:16:23electrified fencing.
0:16:23 > 0:16:27There was only one Dragon she wanted to saddle up with.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30I don't have horses and every time I ask you a question,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33- you look to Deborah when you're giving the answer.- I'm sorry.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36So, I'll wait till Deborah's asked you some questions before I see
0:16:36 > 0:16:38- if I want to ask you any more. - Or, alternatively,
0:16:38 > 0:16:40she knows I've got horses and knows that I actually get
0:16:40 > 0:16:43- when you say 1,200 deniers. - Yeah, that's it.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46Put on your goggles, please, for the next part of the presentation.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50For this mature student, who's invented a twist on a popular toy,
0:16:50 > 0:16:54there is no doubting which Dragon could make his invention take off.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58- Do you know Bladez Toyz?- Yes.
0:16:58 > 0:16:59That's my company.
0:17:01 > 0:17:05Targeting one Dragon does run the risk of alienating others.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09This is very boys' toys, I can't sort of get excited about it.
0:17:09 > 0:17:13When you do a side lunge you start activating the adductors...
0:17:13 > 0:17:15Sorry, are you speaking English? I'm just double-checking.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17I thought you'd dropped into Klingon then.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20I'm as excited about this as I would be to invest in
0:17:20 > 0:17:22an ejector seat in a helicopter.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26The Dragons who are not the focus of the entrepreneur's attention
0:17:26 > 0:17:29can get helpful hints from the Dragons that are.
0:17:29 > 0:17:34Sometimes you have to sit back and listen to some of the other Dragons.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37I personally would really like to hear from Duncan.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40It is clear that you want Deborah as your chosen investor.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43Hmm. I'm going to wait and see what Peter Jones says.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46- He's waiting for me?- I'm waiting for Duncan, I'm being absolutely clear.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48If you think it's good, I think it's good.
0:17:48 > 0:17:52Sadly, seeking out a particular Dragon doesn't always pay off.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55- I really think you won't regret it. - Um...
0:17:55 > 0:17:56no.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00I'm finding it difficult to see the market, so, I'm out.
0:18:00 > 0:18:04But at least, in one case, there was a result of sorts.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06I'm going to do something very un-Dragon-like.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09I'm not going to take advantage of you today, however,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12I will give you all the advice and mentoring you need for nothing.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14OK. Thank you.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17I'm not going to compete with that, so, I'm out.
0:18:22 > 0:18:26Our national taste for coffee has gone upmarket in recent years, but
0:18:26 > 0:18:30we still spend over a billion pounds a year on the instant variety.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33The convenience is, obviously, highly valued and
0:18:33 > 0:18:36our next entrepreneur, Carrie Bates, thinks she can cash in on that.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40Forget the tea bag - she wants to infuse new life into the coffee bag.
0:18:48 > 0:18:49DING
0:19:01 > 0:19:05My name is Carrie and I'm the founder of has The Little Coffee Bag Company.
0:19:05 > 0:19:10I'm here today to ask for £100,000 in exchange for 25% of my business.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15I first had my business idea in the summer of 2011
0:19:15 > 0:19:18when my husband was taking our son out camping.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21I was trying to think of a way that he could enjoy coffee
0:19:21 > 0:19:24in the middle of a field without the need of a cafetiere
0:19:24 > 0:19:27or a filter machine, and decided that he needed something like
0:19:27 > 0:19:30a tea bag, but with ground coffee in.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34I did find coffee bags available, but was so disappointed with them
0:19:34 > 0:19:36I decided that I could do a better job myself.
0:19:38 > 0:19:41For the following 12 months, I designed my packaging
0:19:41 > 0:19:44and invested in the machinery to be able to manufacture the coffee bags
0:19:44 > 0:19:46from our small holding in Shropshire
0:19:46 > 0:19:51and we launched our product two weeks later in Harvey Nichols.
0:19:51 > 0:19:55I also supply a small number of high-end hotels
0:19:55 > 0:19:59and I've also been approached by an investment company in Dubai that
0:19:59 > 0:20:03would like exclusive distribution rights to the United Arab Emirates.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05Thank you.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07How would you like your coffee?
0:20:07 > 0:20:10- Milk, no sugar, please.- Same.- Same.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16A polite, if not slightly nervous,
0:20:16 > 0:20:20pitch from this Shropshire-based entrepreneur.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25She's looking for £100,000 for a 25% stake in her business.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32Peter Jones is first to question the entrepreneur.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37- Is it Carrie?- Yes. - Carrie, hi.- Hello.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40I was just very intrigued cos I kept on looking at the table
0:20:40 > 0:20:43while you're pouring the coffee... And I can see my book on the table.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46Yeah. There's a quote in this book...
0:20:47 > 0:20:51I've picked this book up and there was a quote...I opened the book
0:20:51 > 0:20:53and it fell to this page and I read it.
0:20:55 > 0:21:00"The secret is to take an existing product, service or concept and
0:21:00 > 0:21:05"then take it up a level by applying your own vision and creativity."
0:21:05 > 0:21:08- And that, I feel, is what I've done with this.- Amen.- Wow.
0:21:08 > 0:21:12- So, thank you, Peter.- Did you write that, Peter?- I did.- He did.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14There's quite a good few facts in there.
0:21:16 > 0:21:17Thank you.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23A rare moment of modesty for Peter Jones.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26And while Carrie might have earned herself some Brownie points,
0:21:26 > 0:21:29Piers Linney wants to understand more about the potential
0:21:29 > 0:21:32for this business to grow.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36If we look at your sort of...look at hotels, for example,
0:21:36 > 0:21:40and that high-end market, as you begin to segment as you come down.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43There are certain hotels that wouldn't care.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45How big does your business get? That's my question, really.
0:21:45 > 0:21:50Well, for every 1,200 rooms, there would be just over £100,000 turnover.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54So, for 1,200 rooms, it would be just over £1 million turnover
0:21:54 > 0:21:57and the 1,200 rooms would still be less than 1% of the rooms
0:21:57 > 0:21:58available in this country.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Carrie, what's the price point for the coffee bags you're
0:22:05 > 0:22:07selling into hotels?
0:22:07 > 0:22:09The price point is 16 pence per sachet
0:22:09 > 0:22:13and they cost 9.6 pence to make and that's including the labour.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15Are you not getting any resistance from hotels at that price?
0:22:15 > 0:22:20- Ah, well, I can see it would be prohibitive for some hotels...- Yeah.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28Doubts from Duncan Bannatyne over Carrie's ambitious plans
0:22:28 > 0:22:31to see her coffee bags in hotel chains across the UK.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35Now, Kelly Hoppen wants to get to grips with
0:22:35 > 0:22:37the retail side of the business.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43What does it cost you to make a box like this?
0:22:43 > 0:22:47It costs me £4.55 to put the box together like that
0:22:47 > 0:22:51and I sell to Harvey Nichols at £7.50.
0:22:51 > 0:22:56- And they retail for £14.95.- OK, and have Harvey Nichols reordered?
0:22:57 > 0:22:59Not at the moment, but we're exclusive with
0:22:59 > 0:23:01Harvey Nicols until July.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04So, how many do you sell online at £14.95?
0:23:05 > 0:23:10- I think I've sold around £400 worth, which isn't enormous.- Yeah.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23I'll tell you where I am, Carrie.
0:23:24 > 0:23:27Um...I think you're fantastic. I think what you've done is absolutely
0:23:27 > 0:23:31fantastic and it just shows how anyone can build a business and
0:23:31 > 0:23:32create a business if they really work hard
0:23:32 > 0:23:34and really get excited about it.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41But I'm not convinced that this business
0:23:41 > 0:23:42would ever make enough money...
0:23:44 > 0:23:45..really, to give me a return.
0:23:48 > 0:23:49I've got to say, I'm out.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54Carrie, um, the first thing I wrote on my pad, actually,
0:23:54 > 0:23:58when you showed what, you know, what it was, I said, "Simple idea."
0:23:58 > 0:24:01Simple idea, it's a great idea, but I'm not sure
0:24:01 > 0:24:06I would make the return that I want, so I wish you well, but I'm out.
0:24:09 > 0:24:14Two Dragons have declared themselves out in quick succession.
0:24:14 > 0:24:18Will the other multi-millionaire investors find a taste
0:24:18 > 0:24:19for her coffee business?
0:24:19 > 0:24:21Carrie...
0:24:21 > 0:24:23this isn't new.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26It's something that you've adapted.
0:24:26 > 0:24:27You've taken this to a new level
0:24:27 > 0:24:30and I think you've actually gone even further.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33Um...and I think you've got a business that...
0:24:35 > 0:24:37..could be very, very big, actually.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39And I don't want to say probably too much,
0:24:39 > 0:24:42because I might be doing myself an injustice here, cos,
0:24:42 > 0:24:44I'm sitting here and I'm thinking,
0:24:44 > 0:24:46"You are more than just investable." I think the business,
0:24:46 > 0:24:49the brand is fantastic, you've got some amazing ideas.
0:24:49 > 0:24:52I think it's very exciting. So, I'm not going to waste any time.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56I'm going to get the ball rolling. So, I'm going to make you an offer.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00I'm going to offer you all of the money, £100,000,
0:25:00 > 0:25:04and I'd like 33.3%.
0:25:04 > 0:25:08OK, thank you. Thank you very much.
0:25:08 > 0:25:10Do you want to accept now, or do you want to see
0:25:10 > 0:25:11what the others have to say?
0:25:13 > 0:25:18- I...I feel that it would not be correct...- Fair enough.- Quite right.
0:25:20 > 0:25:25Carrie, this is an interesting one, Carrie, cos, um, you present...
0:25:25 > 0:25:27really well. You come across really well.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29You actually reflect the product really well.
0:25:29 > 0:25:33You know, I can see how this came from you, which I love.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35Um, so I'm also going to make you an offer.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41At the risk of mirroring Peter, I'm going to make you the same offer,
0:25:41 > 0:25:46which is all of the money for 33.3%, which is one third of the business.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49Thank you very much. Thank you.
0:25:53 > 0:25:54Please may...
0:25:56 > 0:25:57OK, I'll make you an offer.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01for all the money...
0:26:01 > 0:26:04for a third of the company, so 33.3%.
0:26:07 > 0:26:08Thank you.
0:26:10 > 0:26:12Now, what are you going to do?
0:26:14 > 0:26:17It's a rare occurrence in the Den.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20Three competing offers and they're all asking for exactly
0:26:20 > 0:26:22the same equity in exchange for investment.
0:26:24 > 0:26:28The tables have turned and Carrie now has to make a decision.
0:26:31 > 0:26:32I...
0:26:33 > 0:26:35I just don't know what to do.
0:26:35 > 0:26:42Um, where do you see me pushing my product forward, Deborah?
0:26:42 > 0:26:47- Do you have routes to market in mind, or...?- Hotels, certainly.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49Now, once you've owned that market,
0:26:49 > 0:26:52- then you can start bringing out other products...- Yes.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56- And then filter out.- Mm-hm.- And then make lots of money and sell it.
0:26:58 > 0:26:59So, I think what you're doing is right,
0:26:59 > 0:27:02so you've gone in at the right place in the market.
0:27:02 > 0:27:04I think the hotels...you need to establish this brand.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07I think you're doing that quite well and I think any of us
0:27:07 > 0:27:10here can really get you into conversations with
0:27:10 > 0:27:12the retailers you need and those kind of contacts.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14I know a board director for M&S
0:27:14 > 0:27:16and they would take this with your brand.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20- Would you mind talking to me about your thoughts?- No, I don't.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23I...I mean, I instantly loved it,
0:27:23 > 0:27:26but one thing that really struck me also was the fact...I think,
0:27:26 > 0:27:30that one area that could be huge for this business is the hamper market.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33I have been approached by a couple of London hamper companies.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Well, I own Red Letter Days and, in there, as you probably know,
0:27:37 > 0:27:41we're extremely large in hamper sales and I think that the
0:27:41 > 0:27:44international marketplace is an area to also explore as well.
0:27:47 > 0:27:51I am erring towards Deborah and Peter at the moment,
0:27:51 > 0:27:56and wonder whether you would like to have a joint input together?
0:27:56 > 0:27:59It's becoming a bit of a habit, actually, Peter.
0:27:59 > 0:28:00HE CLEARS HIS THROAT
0:28:00 > 0:28:02- There's me in the middle again. - Sorry.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10I'd be more than happy to split my investment with Deborah,
0:28:10 > 0:28:11if she's willing to split it.
0:28:11 > 0:28:15Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think it would work very well.
0:28:15 > 0:28:20- I'd like to accept both of your offers, please.- Excellent.- Thank you.
0:28:20 > 0:28:24- Excellent.- Thank you. So, where do I start? Thank you.
0:28:24 > 0:28:29The entrepreneur who took a leaf out of Peter Jones' book, now walks away
0:28:29 > 0:28:32with his money and that of another
0:28:32 > 0:28:34highly experienced Dragon in Deborah Meaden.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39Woo-hoo!
0:28:40 > 0:28:45'I didn't have a brilliant education. My brother passed away when I was 15.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48'It really affected my education terribly.'
0:28:48 > 0:28:51And it feels that everything that I've gone through led to this moment.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54'Deborah and Peter can see the hard work that I've put in
0:28:54 > 0:28:56'and that means the world.'
0:29:00 > 0:29:02There's been a lot of good will in the Den so far...
0:29:02 > 0:29:05I'm going to do something very un-Dragon-like.
0:29:05 > 0:29:06I'm not going to take advantage of you today.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09..with one investment already made.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12- Thank you very much.- Well done.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14Coming up, will any of these entrepreneurs
0:29:14 > 0:29:15benefit from the Dragons' good mood?
0:29:15 > 0:29:18- No. - That's devastating.- It would be.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20Or will they fail to get the capital they need?
0:29:20 > 0:29:23I don't think £50,000 is nearly enough money.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26I don't think it's a good product, I don't think it will sell.
0:29:26 > 0:29:28Just try and keep calm.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34There are normally about three weeks a year in this country with
0:29:34 > 0:29:37ideal conditions for camping.
0:29:37 > 0:29:41But what about the on-trend option of glamorous camping? Glamping.
0:29:41 > 0:29:45Christian and Carolyn van Outersterp are already successful
0:29:45 > 0:29:48glamping entrepreneurs and they now hope to turn their
0:29:48 > 0:29:51Yorkshire business into a year-round operation.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21Hello, I'm Christian van Outersterp.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23And I'm Carolyn van Outersterp
0:30:23 > 0:30:27and our business is Jolly Days Luxury Camping.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30We want to take this business further, faster,
0:30:30 > 0:30:36so we're here to ask for £200,000 in exchange for 20% of our business.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39Jolly Days is a multi-award winning business established four
0:30:39 > 0:30:43and a half years ago and has revolutionised UK glamping.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47We currently have one tented camp of 22 accommodation units
0:30:47 > 0:30:51in a beautiful 200-acre woodland close to York.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54Our huge vintage style tents have four-poster beds,
0:30:54 > 0:30:59roll-top baths, en suite showers, kitchens and wood burners.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01We currently operate nine months of the year
0:31:01 > 0:31:04and have been profitable since day one.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06To expand the business,
0:31:06 > 0:31:09we have obtained planning permission for 50 wooden accommodation
0:31:09 > 0:31:11suites in a 400-acre woodland in the Yorkshire Wolds.
0:31:11 > 0:31:14This will operate 12 months of the year
0:31:14 > 0:31:17and will centre around a luxurious clubhouse where you'll be
0:31:17 > 0:31:20able to eat delicious local food or curl up with
0:31:20 > 0:31:22a hot toddy in front of the fire.
0:31:22 > 0:31:26The 50 private woodland suites are more akin to a luxurious
0:31:26 > 0:31:29hotel suite in the woods and will feature wood burners,
0:31:29 > 0:31:32four-poster beds and spacious spa-style bathrooms.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35Our short-term aim is to have 100 accommodation units over
0:31:35 > 0:31:39two camps generating £4 million profit.
0:31:39 > 0:31:42This is a winning proposition and one of the UK's most exciting
0:31:42 > 0:31:47new hospitality ventures and we'd love you to be involved.
0:31:47 > 0:31:48Thank you.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55A practiced pitch from these glamping entrepreneurs from York.
0:31:55 > 0:32:00They're asking for £200,000 for 20% of an established business
0:32:00 > 0:32:01they want to expand.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05And with Deborah Meaden having made millions running a
0:32:05 > 0:32:09holiday business, the Den will be keen to hear her thoughts first.
0:32:11 > 0:32:14I like this, you know, it interests me.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17And, not surprisingly, I've been in this industry
0:32:17 > 0:32:19and I watch it very carefully.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23I know of you and I also know of the many other businesses that
0:32:23 > 0:32:27have sprung up individually cos that's proliferated, hasn't it?
0:32:27 > 0:32:30Glamping's absolutely been the latest thing for people to
0:32:30 > 0:32:34get into, so my only question on that would be, what's
0:32:34 > 0:32:36occupancy doing in terms of glamping?
0:32:36 > 0:32:39- So, how long have you been running? - Four and a half years.
0:32:39 > 0:32:40And, last year,
0:32:40 > 0:32:43how was your occupancy compared to the year before?
0:32:43 > 0:32:49- It was 57% and I think we grew by about 20%.- You grew?- Yes.- Yes.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55So far, so good, for the entrepreneurs, but are their
0:32:55 > 0:32:58revenue figures as healthy as the number of tents they're filling?
0:33:01 > 0:33:04The turnover of the business to date?
0:33:04 > 0:33:07Last year was 365 net.
0:33:07 > 0:33:09And 102,000 net profit.
0:33:10 > 0:33:14Talk me through how you get to £4 million's profit...
0:33:14 > 0:33:16post £200,000 investment.
0:33:19 > 0:33:23What we're looking to do is, the £200,000 investment
0:33:23 > 0:33:26and bank loan and set up the clubhouse and 15...
0:33:26 > 0:33:29- What's the bank loan? - The bank loan's 300,000.
0:33:29 > 0:33:31So, the key thing is, what's the total cost
0:33:31 > 0:33:32of doing this new venture?
0:33:32 > 0:33:38For the stage one, we're saying half a million, for the clubhouse
0:33:38 > 0:33:42and 15 units, and, thereafter, it's generating cash to grow.
0:33:42 > 0:33:47- Have you bought the land?- No, we lease it off an estate.- For how long?
0:33:47 > 0:33:5015 years with a three-year option
0:33:50 > 0:33:53- on top of that.- 15 years?- Yeah.
0:33:55 > 0:33:56That's not very long, is it?
0:33:56 > 0:34:00In what way have you protected the business from a landlord saying,
0:34:00 > 0:34:03"Thank you very much, Christian, and Caroline,
0:34:03 > 0:34:06"you've now invested £3 million, you've had a good run at it,
0:34:06 > 0:34:10"you've made a little bit of money, but I'm now taking it back...
0:34:10 > 0:34:12"And I'm going to run it as my own business?"
0:34:12 > 0:34:16There wouldn't be anything there for him to run, because we don't own everything.
0:34:16 > 0:34:20- Because you own everything? - It would revert back to just woodland if we went.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23So, you've now got to go in and clear the site?
0:34:23 > 0:34:25Yes, that would be...
0:34:25 > 0:34:27That's devastating.
0:34:28 > 0:34:29It would be.
0:34:32 > 0:34:34A game-changing piece of information
0:34:34 > 0:34:37in what to date had been a convincing pitch.
0:34:38 > 0:34:42And Duncan Bannatyne is not ready to let it lie.
0:34:44 > 0:34:46Who decided on 15 years?
0:34:46 > 0:34:50I think the land agent of the estate. I think we pushed for more, but for some reason...
0:34:50 > 0:34:53Yes, because I think tenants have more rights.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55Why didn't you negotiate a 40 year lease
0:34:55 > 0:34:58with a 15 year tenant only break?
0:34:58 > 0:35:01Yes, I mean, I think the reality of it is
0:35:01 > 0:35:04the two landowners that we worked with are both estate landowners.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07- Is it a very well known estate?- No.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10- It's a family owned...- Yes, they're both family...- Family owners.
0:35:10 > 0:35:15- Local posh landowners.- And it's been in the family for a long time?- Yes.
0:35:15 > 0:35:18I've rented off the Blenheim estate.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20You know, when you rent off a family
0:35:20 > 0:35:22and it's been in a family for a long time,
0:35:22 > 0:35:24it's always going to be in that family.
0:35:24 > 0:35:27And I would think it would be unlikely that they would rent,
0:35:27 > 0:35:30rent you the land for 40 years.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34Couldn't you just lift your model into some land you can buy?
0:35:34 > 0:35:39- Is it something particular about these woods?- I suppose, I mean...
0:35:39 > 0:35:44Most of the beautiful woods are on, sort of landed estates.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47And also, I mean, our woodland is not plantation woodland.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50It is beautiful, natural English woodland.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54It's about that kind of aspect of something that is magical
0:35:54 > 0:35:56and is romantic and it's incredibly well placed
0:35:56 > 0:35:59and this site is between York and Beverley.
0:35:59 > 0:36:02So, it's very well-placed, in terms of tourism,
0:36:02 > 0:36:04it's a sort of tourism hotspot, really.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10The entrepreneurs are hanging on by their fingertips.
0:36:11 > 0:36:15So, is Duncan Bannatyne ready to give them a lifeline?
0:36:17 > 0:36:21I've just bought a lodge in a park in the banks of Lake Windermere,
0:36:21 > 0:36:24which I love. I spend all my time there.
0:36:24 > 0:36:28And I think it's fantastic, the concept you have at the moment.
0:36:28 > 0:36:33It's almost worth investing £200,000 in your business as it is.
0:36:33 > 0:36:35You're doing very well, you're making a lot of money.
0:36:35 > 0:36:38But that's not what you want, you want to go ahead with this.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41There is a huge risk because you don't own the land.
0:36:41 > 0:36:46And the fact that you get kicked off after 15 years worries me too much.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49So, I can't make an investment. Otherwise I'd have loved to.
0:36:49 > 0:36:51I'm sorry, but I have to say I'm out.
0:36:51 > 0:36:52(Thank you.)
0:36:55 > 0:36:59A blow for Christian and Caroline, as their first Dragon bows out
0:36:59 > 0:37:05on account of what could be a fatal flaw in their expansion plan,
0:37:05 > 0:37:07the thorny issue of the 15 year lease.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12Has it convinced the other dragons to walk away from a deal?
0:37:15 > 0:37:18As you approach the end of your lease,
0:37:18 > 0:37:20and you want to sell the business,
0:37:20 > 0:37:24the buyer will have to negotiate a new lease with the landlord
0:37:24 > 0:37:28and your negotiating position will just evaporate
0:37:28 > 0:37:30and so will the value of your business.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33So, for me, because of that one issue, really,
0:37:33 > 0:37:37it wouldn't work. So, fantastic, well done, but I'm afraid I'm out.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42Guys, I do think you have an issue that you don't own the land.
0:37:42 > 0:37:44I think that your business plan is flawed,
0:37:44 > 0:37:49I think you should retreat and think about what you've got
0:37:49 > 0:37:51and make that better.
0:37:51 > 0:37:53And as everybody said, when it comes to the end of 15 years,
0:37:53 > 0:37:57you actually don't own anything and you've spent millions of pounds.
0:37:57 > 0:38:01So, I wish you luck, but I'm afraid I'm out.
0:38:01 > 0:38:03I would urge you not even to contemplate
0:38:03 > 0:38:05doing this project at all. It's flawed.
0:38:05 > 0:38:10You always end up over-budget, you always end up under-resourcing
0:38:10 > 0:38:12and you always end up with a position where
0:38:12 > 0:38:15this occupancy rate doesn't quite happen.
0:38:15 > 0:38:16And one or two bad seasons
0:38:16 > 0:38:18and all of a sudden you're chasing your tail.
0:38:18 > 0:38:22I can't invest in something that is whimsical.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25So, clearly, you know where I'm going.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27I wont be investing and I'm out.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34Only one dragon left.
0:38:34 > 0:38:38Will Deborah Meaden, with her experience in this field,
0:38:38 > 0:38:41be any more willing to offer the entrepreneurs the cash
0:38:41 > 0:38:44to make their expansion dreams a reality?
0:38:48 > 0:38:52I intrinsically understand this end of the market.
0:38:55 > 0:38:58I used to find people choose to camp,
0:38:58 > 0:39:00or even stay in caravans,
0:39:00 > 0:39:03not just because of money, not just because of price,
0:39:03 > 0:39:06but because it's different and it's fun.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09They've chosen that.
0:39:09 > 0:39:11You've got that in the glamping model.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15You lose something in the romance of it
0:39:15 > 0:39:19when you turn it into a hotel with lots of rooms all over it.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23So, I wont be investing and I'm out.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27- OK. Thank you.- Thank you.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29- PETER: Thank you. - Thank you, good luck.
0:39:31 > 0:39:35A disappointed Christian and Caroline exit the den.
0:39:35 > 0:39:39They needed an investment to transform their successful glamping business,
0:39:39 > 0:39:42but they leave with nothing.
0:39:42 > 0:39:43Back to mine, eh?
0:39:44 > 0:39:46Renegotiate.
0:39:46 > 0:39:51That's a shame. I got my Volkswagen camper van, Ruby, and I love it.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53- I love this.- I'd go.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02Henry Ford once said, if I'd asked what customers wanted,
0:40:02 > 0:40:05they would have said, "a faster horse,"
0:40:05 > 0:40:07demonstrating the best entrepreneurs have a vision
0:40:07 > 0:40:10for how a market can develop.
0:40:11 > 0:40:13Married couple, Nuala and Christopher Lewis,
0:40:13 > 0:40:17came to the Den, hoping they've had that kind of vision
0:40:17 > 0:40:18with their invention.
0:40:18 > 0:40:23It's a brand new take on the familiar old product of a mouse mat.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28Like many people, I like to sit on my sofa
0:40:28 > 0:40:30and surf the internet on my laptop.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33Sometimes I get frustrated with the trackpad,
0:40:33 > 0:40:35so I would reach for my mouse.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38I'd start running my mouse up and down my sofa arm on my lap,
0:40:38 > 0:40:42surfaces that are clearly not designed for the use of a mouse.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44Then came our Eureka moment,
0:40:44 > 0:40:48as you can see here our exciting new product, Slouch Mat.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51Peter Jones was keen to get his hands on the product.
0:40:51 > 0:40:53I'm a bit concerned about the bits here.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56What are these bits that pull out?
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Oh! You've actually ripped it open?
0:40:59 > 0:41:02- What are they inside? - Dried peas.- Wow!
0:41:03 > 0:41:08But Piers Linney had already spotted a competing product in the room.
0:41:08 > 0:41:12There is a device on the market that does that already?
0:41:12 > 0:41:15You've got two on your chair over there.
0:41:15 > 0:41:17They're called cushions.
0:41:19 > 0:41:21On the theme of soft furnishings,
0:41:21 > 0:41:26Kelly Hoppen wasted no time with her opinion on Slouch Mat aesthetics.
0:41:26 > 0:41:31I think this is an incredibly ugly item to have on a sofa.
0:41:31 > 0:41:32Even the cover,
0:41:32 > 0:41:35you could have used a neoprene in all different neutral colours
0:41:35 > 0:41:38which would have looked more modern than something which people would
0:41:38 > 0:41:40have liked to have had on the side of their sofa.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45Where the Dragons all agreed, is with smartphones, tablets
0:41:45 > 0:41:48and touch screen devices becoming ever more popular,
0:41:48 > 0:41:51the Slouch Mat was 1990s technology.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56I'm going to be constructive but brutal.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58I don't think it's very good.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01Have you invented something for the mouse,
0:42:01 > 0:42:04just as the mouse disappears from our lives?
0:42:04 > 0:42:07This is completely back in the Dark Ages.
0:42:07 > 0:42:10In a way you've invented a faster way of writing on parchment
0:42:10 > 0:42:13with a quill the day before the printing press was invented.
0:42:13 > 0:42:17- I don't think it's a good product, I don't think it will sell and I'm out.- Thank you.
0:42:23 > 0:42:27Could there be a gap on the supermarket shelves,
0:42:27 > 0:42:29already piled so high with jars and packets,
0:42:29 > 0:42:33tempting us with the promise of speedy convenience and tasty food?
0:42:33 > 0:42:37Entrepreneurs Vini and Bal Aujla think they have spotted one
0:42:37 > 0:42:39for a fresh curry sauce.
0:42:48 > 0:42:50HE INHALES DEEPLY
0:42:50 > 0:42:52Let's try and keep calm.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55Composed, take our time, take our time.
0:42:55 > 0:42:57LIFT BELL PINGS
0:43:12 > 0:43:15Hello. My name is Vini and this is my husband, Bal.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18- We're here today...- I can hardly hear you.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20Oh, gosh, OK.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23We are here today to ask for a £50,000 investment
0:43:23 > 0:43:27for a 15% share in our company,
0:43:27 > 0:43:29Vini & Bal's Rustic Indian.
0:43:30 > 0:43:37Currently we produce a range of four chilled, fresh Indian cook-in sauces.
0:43:37 > 0:43:39We only use natural ingredients.
0:43:39 > 0:43:43They're healthy, they're nutritious,
0:43:43 > 0:43:45they're very easy to use.
0:43:45 > 0:43:47The entire range is gluten-free,
0:43:47 > 0:43:49asides from the Shahi, which is the blue sauce,
0:43:49 > 0:43:52they are also dairy free
0:43:52 > 0:43:56and you'll always end up with a traditional, tasty Indian meal.
0:43:56 > 0:44:02In January this year our product was launched into 120 stores
0:44:02 > 0:44:05of a national, independent supermarket.
0:44:05 > 0:44:08We have a listing with the largest health food
0:44:08 > 0:44:12distributor in the south-east of England,
0:44:12 > 0:44:18who in turn also supplies five organic food stores in London.
0:44:18 > 0:44:25We are imminently going live with the largest online grocer
0:44:25 > 0:44:28and we have brought some samples for you to try
0:44:28 > 0:44:31and after which we will be happy to answer your questions.
0:44:34 > 0:44:37An understated pitch from this husband and wife team.
0:44:37 > 0:44:44They're looking for £50,000 for 15% of their fresh curry business.
0:44:44 > 0:44:48Key for Kelly Hoppen is Rustic Indian's authenticity.
0:44:48 > 0:44:50It's hot.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54Did you actually start making this in your own kitchen?
0:44:54 > 0:44:59Yes, these are recipes that have been handed down many generations
0:44:59 > 0:45:03and we actually wanted it to be more personal.
0:45:03 > 0:45:06What sort of competition is there out there?
0:45:06 > 0:45:10- Is there anything similar? - I mean, this is the thing.
0:45:10 > 0:45:14The supermarket shelves are saturated with the preserved jars,
0:45:14 > 0:45:18yet there is nothing in the fresh section and we just...
0:45:18 > 0:45:21We just can't get to grips with that.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23So there's no competition, whatsoever?
0:45:23 > 0:45:26- BAL: Not in the supermarket, no. - What is the shelf life of this?
0:45:26 > 0:45:29Currently we have 12 weeks.
0:45:29 > 0:45:31Have you looked into why they don't do fresh?
0:45:31 > 0:45:34They do have fresh Italian sauces
0:45:34 > 0:45:39so why somebody has not thought about making fresh Indian
0:45:39 > 0:45:43cook-in sauces, I think is purely down to the shelf life.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46- BAL: And their model? - VINI: And their model.- Yeah.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48I think it is as well.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51I've got a little bit of experience in this...
0:45:51 > 0:45:53It's different, admitted, it's Caribbean.
0:45:53 > 0:45:58One of the reasons why we very much keep away from this,
0:45:58 > 0:46:01- it's extremely expensive.- It is.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05And its shortened lifespan, which means high level of investment
0:46:05 > 0:46:09and wastage. So all the big players in this marketplace,
0:46:09 > 0:46:12if this was a market opportunity, they would have launched it.
0:46:12 > 0:46:14I'm wondering why they haven't?
0:46:14 > 0:46:17I don't think they've actually seen it.
0:46:17 > 0:46:20Trust me, they spend tens of millions a year
0:46:20 > 0:46:22in this type of arena.
0:46:22 > 0:46:23They'd know it.
0:46:27 > 0:46:30A lesson on the workings of the prepared food
0:46:30 > 0:46:34industry from a Dragon who knows.
0:46:34 > 0:46:38But Piers Linney wants to bring the pitch back around to basics.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43I want to talk about the food, I had the chicken, I love it.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46It's as simple as that. Very straightforward from me.
0:46:46 > 0:46:49When I grew up my uncle was Indian and very traditional,
0:46:49 > 0:46:52I know what the real food should taste like and you're right, it is
0:46:52 > 0:46:55quite different in terms of what we are presented with in restaurants.
0:46:55 > 0:46:57I like your packaging.
0:46:57 > 0:46:59- It stands out because it's different, isn't it?- Yes.
0:46:59 > 0:47:01Like you say, you just don't see this.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04When I first saw it I couldn't work out what is it?
0:47:04 > 0:47:08I'm not familiar with that existing. It's quite amazing you found a niche.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11That's pretty hard to do.
0:47:11 > 0:47:15So I can see you've put Vini & Bal on the back.
0:47:15 > 0:47:18Is it a bit of an ego trip?
0:47:20 > 0:47:26No. Erm, everything that you see here has been created by us.
0:47:26 > 0:47:31The illustration there was actually supposed to be my mum and dad
0:47:31 > 0:47:33back in the '70s coming over from India.
0:47:33 > 0:47:37When we are carrying out our marketing,
0:47:37 > 0:47:42everybody seemed to assume that this was Bal and I.
0:47:42 > 0:47:46- Right.- That's where the branding Vini & Bal's Rustic Indian came from.
0:47:46 > 0:47:50But the reality is Vini & Bal is Vini and Bal,
0:47:50 > 0:47:52the two people I see in front of me.
0:47:52 > 0:47:57The big issue for me is actually you guys, in terms of the product
0:47:57 > 0:47:58and its positioning,
0:47:58 > 0:48:01the reason why people like Loyd Grossman have sold millions.
0:48:01 > 0:48:04It's the reason why Levi Roots is a millionaire.
0:48:04 > 0:48:07It's because, it's the brand that pushes the client
0:48:07 > 0:48:08to buy the product.
0:48:08 > 0:48:12I'm wondering what you've got to drive the brand values behind it?
0:48:14 > 0:48:17We actually like Vini & Bal's Rustic Indian.
0:48:17 > 0:48:19We started a PR campaign in January.
0:48:19 > 0:48:23It's been very successful for us.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26The main headline grabbing publications are the Observer,
0:48:26 > 0:48:30the Guardian and Daily Mail and Sunday.
0:48:30 > 0:48:35John Torode from MasterChef actually recommended a buy on this product.
0:48:35 > 0:48:39That is a huge amount of PR.
0:48:39 > 0:48:44A huge amount, which would essentially get your name out there.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47The problem I'm having with all the PR that you've had,
0:48:47 > 0:48:51I would have thought that you would have had a much more successful business by now.
0:48:51 > 0:48:54We just started the PR in January of this year.
0:48:54 > 0:48:56It doesn't matter, you've still had it.
0:48:56 > 0:48:58Yeah, and we've had a phenomenal response.
0:48:58 > 0:49:01The problem is, we can't actually supply everybody
0:49:01 > 0:49:03because it's not readily available.
0:49:03 > 0:49:07A PR company is going to have to go out and market you.
0:49:07 > 0:49:12I don't think £50,000 is nearly enough money to actually
0:49:12 > 0:49:14build the brand that you want.
0:49:14 > 0:49:17It's just not something that I feel comfortable investing in.
0:49:17 > 0:49:21- I'm afraid I'm out, but I wish you a lot of luck.- Thank you.
0:49:24 > 0:49:27There are issues around this.
0:49:27 > 0:49:31I love the look of it but you are going to have to spend a fortune.
0:49:31 > 0:49:35I have a view, if you're spending less than £3,000 a month on PR
0:49:35 > 0:49:37you might as well not spend any money at all.
0:49:37 > 0:49:40I won't be investing so I'm afraid, I'm out.
0:49:43 > 0:49:48A double blow for the entrepreneurs as Kelly Hoppen and Deborah Meaden
0:49:48 > 0:49:53are spooked by the money needed to launch yet another cook-in sauce.
0:49:55 > 0:50:00But Peter Jones wants to learn more about the couples' business credentials.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03What do you do, Bal, now?
0:50:03 > 0:50:07Predominantly most of my time is Rustic Indian, our children.
0:50:07 > 0:50:09Erm...
0:50:09 > 0:50:12We have a leasehold business... You have got a leasehold business.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14Tell me about that quickly?
0:50:14 > 0:50:20Yeah, we bought this bakery as an ongoing concern in 2008.
0:50:20 > 0:50:22Erm...
0:50:22 > 0:50:26And we bought at the peak of the market,
0:50:26 > 0:50:29so to speak and the recession has kicked in.
0:50:29 > 0:50:30It's...
0:50:30 > 0:50:32It's...
0:50:32 > 0:50:35There is an economic downturn and, erm,
0:50:35 > 0:50:38the business sort of breaks even.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40How much money have you in that business?
0:50:41 > 0:50:44Well, including money that we put in
0:50:44 > 0:50:46and the money that we borrowed,
0:50:46 > 0:50:48that's 120,000.
0:50:50 > 0:50:53Did you know what it was making at the time you bought it?
0:50:53 > 0:50:56- Yeah, but in 2008 when we purchased it,
0:50:56 > 0:50:59the business had started to quieten down,
0:50:59 > 0:51:03just because those less money around.
0:51:03 > 0:51:08I struggle with that bit because I've developed a theory over the last 30-odd years in business
0:51:08 > 0:51:12that entrepreneurs who blame
0:51:12 > 0:51:15the weather, the recession,
0:51:15 > 0:51:17the government, never make it.
0:51:17 > 0:51:21I'd be in that bakery now, trying to make that bakery work.
0:51:22 > 0:51:24Yes...
0:51:24 > 0:51:26It's having an interest.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28It's having an interest in the bakery.
0:51:28 > 0:51:31You have an interest you've invested in it.
0:51:31 > 0:51:34Why are you not in there, making that bakery work?
0:51:34 > 0:51:36Why are you not in there baking the bread?
0:51:36 > 0:51:37It's not me.
0:51:37 > 0:51:39It's not me.
0:51:42 > 0:51:45Vini and Bal's admission that they have given up trying to
0:51:45 > 0:51:47make their current bakery business profitable
0:51:47 > 0:51:50has unnerved the Dragons.
0:51:50 > 0:51:54And Peter Jones has made his mind up.
0:52:00 > 0:52:05This is not something, sadly, for me to invest in.
0:52:05 > 0:52:07The brand positioning is wrong.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09I'm not convinced on the product.
0:52:10 > 0:52:12I do think there is a very,
0:52:12 > 0:52:16very good reason why that marketplace has not been tapped.
0:52:17 > 0:52:20I just think you're trying to punch way above your weight.
0:52:20 > 0:52:24I'm going to wish you the best of luck. It's a lovely product
0:52:24 > 0:52:28- but it's not an investment I can take forward and I'm out.- Thank you.
0:52:30 > 0:52:33I agree it's a lovely product, it's well packed.
0:52:33 > 0:52:35Well presented, but I just...
0:52:35 > 0:52:39..don't think the problems with supermarkets taking it
0:52:39 > 0:52:40can be overcome.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43For that reason,
0:52:43 > 0:52:44I'm out.
0:52:49 > 0:52:54With four tycoons gone, only the newest and youngest Dragon remains.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59But has Piers Linney's early enthusiasm for this fresh curry
0:52:59 > 0:53:03business been dampened by the more experienced old guard?
0:53:07 > 0:53:10Vini and Bal, two things that have been discussed wind me up.
0:53:10 > 0:53:14One is, entrepreneurs get into businesses that make mistakes,
0:53:14 > 0:53:15it's not what they thought it was,
0:53:15 > 0:53:18it's not something you should be strung up for.
0:53:18 > 0:53:20That's just life and that how you learn.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23The other thing is, I don't pretend to be an expert in supermarkets.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26You know, this is the way it's done and that's the way the market is and that's the price
0:53:26 > 0:53:29and they'll squeeze you, it's been done before.
0:53:29 > 0:53:30It's just nonsense.
0:53:30 > 0:53:34When you go into a supermarket you are looking for something which is differentiated,
0:53:34 > 0:53:35something that is fresh.
0:53:35 > 0:53:39Yeah, I trust its supply chain, maybe there is a story behind it.
0:53:39 > 0:53:42I know it's not some made up brand, that's being manufactured,
0:53:42 > 0:53:44shoved into a jar with who knows what
0:53:44 > 0:53:46just so it has got a shelf life.
0:53:46 > 0:53:48I mean, the world has to change.
0:53:48 > 0:53:50But...
0:53:50 > 0:53:52You're going to need more than 50K.
0:53:56 > 0:53:59That's the issue.
0:53:59 > 0:54:03I mean, a lot more, not even 100K, I mean, hundreds of thousands.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12You could spend 50 on just your branding.
0:54:12 > 0:54:13You could...
0:54:16 > 0:54:17The question is, can I?
0:54:21 > 0:54:23I'll tell you what, I make you an offer. It's a bit of a punt.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27I'd give you the 50,000...
0:54:31 > 0:54:33..but I want 30%.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39Is the 30% that you asked for, is that negotiable
0:54:39 > 0:54:41because you did want to go to a maximum of 25?
0:54:41 > 0:54:43- Is there any movement in that?- No.
0:54:45 > 0:54:47Erm...
0:54:47 > 0:54:52May we ask how you see yourself fitting in with our brand,
0:54:52 > 0:54:56our vision and what do you think you can bring to the table to
0:54:56 > 0:55:00help us get to where we want to get to?
0:55:00 > 0:55:02You don't know me as well as some of the other Dragons,
0:55:02 > 0:55:07that's the issue you've got but you have to take, I've bought businesses that are worth millions,
0:55:07 > 0:55:10tens of millions over the last five years, during three recessions.
0:55:10 > 0:55:14What I do have is lots of different networks, you know.
0:55:14 > 0:55:17I'm not going to lie to you, I'm not the biggest well-connected person
0:55:17 > 0:55:21in retail but you're not going to get this anywhere without some money.
0:55:21 > 0:55:24You know, there is a bit of risk in this, let's face it.
0:55:27 > 0:55:30- Do you want to have a chat in the boardroom?- In the boardroom!
0:55:31 > 0:55:33Yeah, yeah, help yourself.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42Say, "yes".
0:55:58 > 0:56:00- Yeah.- Yeah?
0:56:00 > 0:56:02Let's ask the question.
0:56:02 > 0:56:03OK...
0:56:06 > 0:56:08We'd be happy to accept your offer.
0:56:08 > 0:56:10- Cool.- Well done.
0:56:10 > 0:56:12APPLAUSE
0:56:15 > 0:56:19After a tricky negotiation, Piers Linney seals the deal
0:56:19 > 0:56:23and an overwhelmed Vini leaves the Den with her husband, Bal,
0:56:23 > 0:56:25and the £50,000 investment they need.
0:56:33 > 0:56:35She's still not too happy, is she?
0:56:35 > 0:56:37I don't know whether she was crying out of delight, or...
0:56:37 > 0:56:41- "Not Piers, come on..." - I think you'll do well.
0:56:41 > 0:56:45I'm pleased they got investment. I'm just pleased it wasn't my money.
0:56:45 > 0:56:48It's amazing with a capital A.
0:56:48 > 0:56:50A-mazing. Yeah?
0:56:52 > 0:56:55It's like you can't put a value, even though
0:56:55 > 0:56:58we just have in what we've given away and what we got back.
0:56:58 > 0:57:00That's not really the true value of a Dragon.
0:57:00 > 0:57:03It far outweighs what he's just invested.
0:57:03 > 0:57:07We know that, he knows that and now it's actually about building that.
0:57:16 > 0:57:21So a double investment this week, both of them in the food and drink industry,
0:57:21 > 0:57:25both trying to combine convenience for the consumer with a fresh taste.
0:57:25 > 0:57:29It's a fresh step for Piers Linney who's spicing up his business
0:57:29 > 0:57:32portfolio by entering this sector for the first time.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35The conversations on all of tonight's pitches
0:57:35 > 0:57:38continue on Twitter, using the hash tag Dragons' Den.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40Let's go.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43Next week in the Den...
0:57:43 > 0:57:48There's a huge amount of work to get anywhere near comfortable making an investment.
0:57:48 > 0:57:51Will you then take a percentage of those sales?
0:57:51 > 0:57:54We would split the sales 50/50.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57I'm not entirely convinced about this,
0:57:57 > 0:57:59- although I sort of like it in a way. - Thank you.
0:57:59 > 0:58:01I'm a natural investor for you.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03So what would be the offer?
0:58:03 > 0:58:06Or don't you want to make one?
0:58:07 > 0:58:10Why have you felt it necessary to come in here and try
0:58:10 > 0:58:14and pull the wool over our eyes?