0:00:02 > 0:00:03PETER: You're deluded in your approach.
0:00:03 > 0:00:05- DUNCAN:- It doesn't matter what the business is,
0:00:05 > 0:00:07it's my return that matters.
0:00:07 > 0:00:09- KELLY:- I would want 40%. - PIERS:- Would you invest in it?
0:00:09 > 0:00:11DEBORAH: I'm irritated. PETER: I'm out.
0:00:27 > 0:00:33These are the Dragons - wealthy, well-connected,
0:00:33 > 0:00:37innovative and influential.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Each week, they make or break the dreams
0:00:39 > 0:00:42of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:45 > 0:00:51In the Den, leisure and marketing expert, Deborah Meaden...
0:00:51 > 0:00:54telecoms giant, Peter Jones,
0:00:54 > 0:00:58hotel and health club owner, Duncan Bannatyne,
0:00:58 > 0:01:02founder of her own global interior design brand, Kelly Hoppen
0:01:02 > 0:01:07and cloud computing expert and former City financier, Piers Linney.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11With thousands to lose but millions to gain,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15the Dragons are prepared to fight for that next shrewd investment.
0:01:17 > 0:01:18In the last decade,
0:01:18 > 0:01:22over 900 entrepreneurs have faced the Dragons, and investment
0:01:22 > 0:01:27offers of £14.5 million have been made in this room.
0:01:27 > 0:01:29To face them takes nerve and vision,
0:01:29 > 0:01:33so who will leave with the Dragons' money?
0:01:40 > 0:01:44Welcome back to the Dragons' Den, where entrepreneurs with ideas
0:01:44 > 0:01:49and inventions strive to impress our five wealthy Dragon investors.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53Only the best will get the cash their business needs.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Coming up on tonight's show...
0:01:56 > 0:01:58Deborah, it's got nothing to do with you, you're out.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00- Yeah, but this isn't fair. - You're out.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03Try it for me.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05Tell me what dog food tastes like.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08I think you passed Peter's little test there. Well done.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11I think it is ridiculous.
0:02:11 > 0:02:15This comedy took a very dark turn
0:02:15 > 0:02:20when you said you'd invested £1 million.
0:02:26 > 0:02:31First to face our five tycoons is serial entrepreneur Tej Randeva.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38He wants cash to launch a new nationwide fast food
0:02:38 > 0:02:40franchise business.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43It's a model used by some of the most famous names
0:02:43 > 0:02:47on the high street and it's one that can be very profitable.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53BHANGRA MUSIC PLAYS
0:03:14 > 0:03:16- Thank you.- Very good.
0:03:27 > 0:03:28Hello, Dragons.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31My name's Tej Randeva and I'm the CEO of Spice 2 Go.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36I'm looking for £75,000 for a 10% share in my Indian food
0:03:36 > 0:03:38franchise business.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41The Spice 2 Go concept came from my experience at Domino's Pizza
0:03:41 > 0:03:43where I spent several years as a franchisee.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51The Indian takeaway market is worth a staggering £3.8 billion
0:03:51 > 0:03:53in the UK alone, with the average Brit
0:03:53 > 0:03:57spending around £15,000 on curry in their lifetime.
0:03:57 > 0:04:01And this got me thinking - why isn't there a brand in this...
0:04:01 > 0:04:04HE CLEARS THROAT ..in this market, huge market?
0:04:04 > 0:04:07We currently have two stores operating in the South Wales region.
0:04:11 > 0:04:15My vision is to have Spice 2 Go stores all across the UK,
0:04:15 > 0:04:19hundreds and hundreds around the UK, making it a household brand.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Thank you very much for listening to my pitch.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24In the meantime, I've brought some food for you guys to have a taste.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26Please join me to have some food.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32A nervous pitch from Tej Randeva who is looking to do for curry
0:04:32 > 0:04:35what Domino's have done for pizza.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38- Chana masala's not very spicy. - Which one's that?
0:04:38 > 0:04:42Tej is seeking £75,000 in return for a 10% stake
0:04:42 > 0:04:45in his fast food franchise business.
0:04:46 > 0:04:51First to question the Welsh entrepreneur is Piers Linney.
0:04:52 > 0:04:53TEJ EXHALES SHARPLY
0:04:53 > 0:04:56You have not explained, unless I missed it,
0:04:56 > 0:04:59exactly what on Earth you do.
0:04:59 > 0:05:02- OK.- What is it? A takeaway? Is it a shop? Is it fresh? What is it?
0:05:02 > 0:05:03Is it frozen?
0:05:03 > 0:05:06It's an Indian food franchise for potentially having
0:05:06 > 0:05:08a brand in the Indian takeaway industry, yeah.
0:05:08 > 0:05:12Indian takeaway, you've got two in Wales and you want to
0:05:12 > 0:05:14take on all those Indian takeaways all over the country?
0:05:14 > 0:05:17We want to introduce a brand into the marketplace,
0:05:17 > 0:05:18not just an Indian takeaway.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21Every time we launch a store, just as you saw the dancers there,
0:05:21 > 0:05:23that's the kind of appearance we have.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27We involve the community, make sure the brand has a presence locally.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31We want to be shared on social media and be known about, saying,
0:05:31 > 0:05:32"Oh, I've just had a Spice 2 Go today."
0:05:32 > 0:05:34And I think that's the kind of cool brand,
0:05:34 > 0:05:36exciting brand that we want to be.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39After a less-than-perfect start,
0:05:39 > 0:05:44the fast food entrepreneur is beginning to gain his composure.
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Now Deborah Meaden wants to find out more about his two
0:05:47 > 0:05:49existing takeaways.
0:05:50 > 0:05:52Take your best of those two businesses,
0:05:52 > 0:05:54how long's that been trading?
0:05:54 > 0:05:58Eh, that's been trading since...February 2013.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01So, in that year, what was your turnover?
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Eh, February to February turnover was...
0:06:07 > 0:06:11..around £92,000.
0:06:11 > 0:06:13What's your gross profit?
0:06:15 > 0:06:18It should be around 12, 13%.
0:06:18 > 0:06:19I hope that's not right.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21Can I give you a scenario based on...?
0:06:21 > 0:06:24- No, hold on a minute, this is pretty standard business language.- Mm-hm.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27So, what is...? So, your turnover is 92,000,
0:06:27 > 0:06:31what are your direct cost-of-sales against those?
0:06:31 > 0:06:34OK, I'm really sorry, I haven't thought about that answer.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40Something I really should know the answer to, I'm really sorry.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43- Oh, boy, you should know the answer to.- I know, I'm sorry.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47Both stores are running at a loss at the moment,
0:06:47 > 0:06:51so we are focusing on getting the brand, consistency,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54making sure that it works before we start to franchise out.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58I feel really anxious listening to you.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02The more I listen to the fact that you don't know your figures,
0:07:02 > 0:07:06it doesn't make me feel confident that this is a business that
0:07:06 > 0:07:08can make money or has legs.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10I just think I came in here sort of nervous and...
0:07:10 > 0:07:15I appreciate that but you'd think you'd wake up and smell the curry.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21A shaky grasp of the numbers combined with an admission
0:07:21 > 0:07:24that his Welsh takeaways are currently running at a loss
0:07:24 > 0:07:27are causing immediate concerns among the Dragons.
0:07:29 > 0:07:30And now Peter Jones
0:07:30 > 0:07:33wants to interrogate the figures even further.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37How much money have you put into this?
0:07:37 > 0:07:39About between £900,000 and £1 million.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41- DRAGONS GASP - Whoa.- You have not.
0:07:41 > 0:07:42I have.
0:07:45 > 0:07:46You should have called it Money 2 Go.
0:07:46 > 0:07:48TEJ LAUGHS NERVOUSLY
0:07:48 > 0:07:50- Where did you get that other money from?- I have other businesses.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52What are the other businesses?
0:07:52 > 0:07:56I bought two Domino's franchises for £280,000 each
0:07:56 > 0:08:01and we sold them for £835,000 recently.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05And I own a transport broker group which is the UK's largest
0:08:05 > 0:08:07brokerage for limousines, wedding cars, coaches...
0:08:07 > 0:08:09- You own that group?- Yes.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14You've made a million pounds or more
0:08:14 > 0:08:17and you've put a million pounds into Spice 2 Go.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19Mm-hm. I believe this brand can work.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21I'm chasing my dream and a vision
0:08:21 > 0:08:24and I had the same vision for my transport broker group.
0:08:27 > 0:08:32News of Tej's previous business success has given the Dragons
0:08:32 > 0:08:33pause for thought.
0:08:34 > 0:08:38But there's something about his product which is not quite to
0:08:38 > 0:08:40Piers Linney's taste.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44So, what is it about your curries that are so special?
0:08:44 > 0:08:48- I mean, I've tried one. To me, that tastes like a microwave curry.- OK.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51I think this is where we need to have more development in the food
0:08:51 > 0:08:53area as well because trying...
0:08:53 > 0:08:55When you say "we", you don't own that company.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59No, we don't own the kitchen.
0:09:00 > 0:09:04A lot of the Indian takeaways do rely on chefs.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06We've eliminated that problem altogether,
0:09:06 > 0:09:10there is no chef in our place, it's pretty easy to operate our system.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13We have one central chef in one central kitchen,
0:09:13 > 0:09:16they do everything, they develop everything and it will be consistent
0:09:16 > 0:09:18so you could have a curry in Manchester or London or anywhere
0:09:18 > 0:09:22in the country, it will taste exactly the same as it did in Bristol.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29Tej is confident that a consistent offering will set Spice 2 Go
0:09:29 > 0:09:32apart from the competition.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35But Deborah Meaden is concerned about how much appeal
0:09:35 > 0:09:39the business would have to a potential franchisee.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43We've stripped away that you don't know the numbers,
0:09:43 > 0:09:45you're actually losing money at the moment,
0:09:45 > 0:09:48you've got nothing to sell to a franchisee other than brand,
0:09:48 > 0:09:53so which bit do I look at and think, "Ah, that's Spice 2 Go"?
0:09:53 > 0:09:56Those boxes there, that's how we deliver our curries.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59Within 24 minutes, it's at your door, so...
0:09:59 > 0:10:00But that's service.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03- What's brand?- I think service is part of the brand.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05Yeah, OK, you're right, service is part of the brand
0:10:05 > 0:10:07but I've got to be able to recognise something.
0:10:07 > 0:10:08I think if I can answer in one, Deborah,
0:10:08 > 0:10:10I think it's consistency that...
0:10:10 > 0:10:13- Oh, Tej, honestly. - Does it come delivered...?
0:10:13 > 0:10:14Can I just finish this, Kelly?
0:10:16 > 0:10:19You have failed to give any information at all.
0:10:19 > 0:10:26I would have given up ages ago but this comedy took a very dark turn
0:10:26 > 0:10:30when you said you'd invested £1 million.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35Tej, I...
0:10:35 > 0:10:36SHE SIGHS
0:10:40 > 0:10:44I'm going out because there is not one reason to invest.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47- OK, well, I'm sorry I didn't give you that satisfaction.- I'm out.
0:10:50 > 0:10:55With Deborah Meaden out, Tej has lost his first Dragon.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58Will Peter Jones be any more willing to offer him
0:10:58 > 0:11:03the investment that could turn Spice 2 Go into a household name?
0:11:05 > 0:11:09- Your brand is actually all over that box, isn't it?- It is, yeah.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12- Well, I think that's quite well branded, actually.- Pfft!
0:11:15 > 0:11:18I quite like Spice 2 Go - it says what it does on the tin.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23But the reality is I don't think you've brought anything unique
0:11:23 > 0:11:26and different, so if I was to give you £75,000,
0:11:26 > 0:11:29I don't think it would last very long and I'm worried...
0:11:29 > 0:11:32I think £75,000, me spending it, yeah, you're probably right,
0:11:32 > 0:11:34it wouldn't last very long.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37KELLY LAUGHS And I think having, having, having...
0:11:37 > 0:11:41Quite clearly, my track record has shown that.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43I am an investor.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46I put my money into something because I believe that
0:11:46 > 0:11:49I can get a return on my investment.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51You're not demonstrating that you can do that,
0:11:51 > 0:11:53so I'm going to say I'm out.
0:11:53 > 0:11:54OK.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05I'm not going to waste anybody's time or bore anyone by going
0:12:05 > 0:12:08over the same things over and over again.
0:12:08 > 0:12:09I'm out.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Three Dragons have now bowed out.
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Only Kelly Hoppen and Piers Linney remain.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23I don't like the actual business model,
0:12:23 > 0:12:27- the fact that it definitely isn't fresh Indian food.- Yeah.
0:12:27 > 0:12:28It's pre-packaged.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31I think that the systems, that could be changed, we could...
0:12:31 > 0:12:34That's not a system, that's a fundamental part of your business.
0:12:34 > 0:12:38- So, for that reason, I'm out. - OK. Thank you.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45I'm fearful for you that you're going to leave here
0:12:45 > 0:12:47and not take advice and you're going to continue...
0:12:47 > 0:12:50- No, I will take advice. - ..to put money into it.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53There is a side of me that thinks it could have been a great idea
0:12:53 > 0:12:54and I think the name is very good
0:12:54 > 0:12:59but there is absolutely no way that I would invest in this.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03- So, I'm sorry, but I'm out. - OK, thank you.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11So, a deflated Tej leaves the Den empty-handed.
0:13:11 > 0:13:16Despite an all-singing, all-dancing start, his plans to deliver
0:13:16 > 0:13:20curry in a hurry ultimately failed to fire up the Dragons.
0:13:25 > 0:13:27I think they missed a great opportunity here
0:13:27 > 0:13:30and I think they'll be kicking themselves.
0:13:31 > 0:13:33Spice 2 Go will become a national brand,
0:13:33 > 0:13:36it will become a household brand and, take my word for it, it will happen.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53From fast food to pet food.
0:13:53 > 0:13:58It's a market worth an estimated £2 billion each year in this country.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01And pet owners are becoming more discerning as to what
0:14:01 > 0:14:03they feed their animals.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05Healthy options are increasingly in demand.
0:14:06 > 0:14:10Our next entrepreneurs, Daniel Eha and Mat Cockroft,
0:14:10 > 0:14:14hope their new dog food will find a place in the market.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21Hi there, I'm Daniel and this is Mat, and we're from Pure Pet Food.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24We've come here today seeking a £40,000 investment
0:14:24 > 0:14:27for a 10% stake in our business.
0:14:27 > 0:14:31Pure manufactures a range of dehydrated dog food products.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33The unavailability of low-processed
0:14:33 > 0:14:36and natural options has actually led to a number of owners
0:14:36 > 0:14:39beginning to feed a raw or a home-prepared diet to their pets.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43Although the idea of raw feeding or home cooking is a fantastic
0:14:43 > 0:14:45idea in principle, in reality,
0:14:45 > 0:14:48it can actually cause a lot of inconvenience for owners.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51Pure allows them to conveniently feed low-processed food with real
0:14:51 > 0:14:55nutritional integrity, just like raw or home-prepared food, but
0:14:55 > 0:15:00crucially retains all the convenience of a commercial pet food product.
0:15:00 > 0:15:02Pure launched eight months ago,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05receiving fantastic coverage from both local and national press.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09Since then, Pure has been launched in over 100 pet specialist stores.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11This first eight months culminated in Pure being awarded
0:15:11 > 0:15:14the Pet Product Innovation Of The Year award by world-renowned
0:15:14 > 0:15:16industry body PetQuip.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19We feel this is a fantastic opportunity to be
0:15:19 > 0:15:23involved in a young and exciting company placed in a market that
0:15:23 > 0:15:26has defied recession and sits at the high-growth end of the sector.
0:15:26 > 0:15:29We'll now take any questions and if any of you have skipped lunch
0:15:29 > 0:15:33and are feeling brave, we'd more than welcome you to give it a quick try.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39Delivering their vision for a nutritious dog food...
0:15:39 > 0:15:44- Thank you.- ..this Yorkshire duo want £40,000 for a 10% stake
0:15:44 > 0:15:46in their company.
0:15:46 > 0:15:47Thank you very much.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51But are any of the Dragons willing to put their mouth
0:15:51 > 0:15:52where their money is?
0:15:55 > 0:15:58- PETER:- Daniel, Mat, hello. - BOTH: Hi there.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00You said about trying it.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Could you grab the bowl and try it for me?
0:16:05 > 0:16:07Yeah, I'll have a small bit.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10I normally deal with developing the recipes.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12No, but if you just take a few mouthfuls and then
0:16:12 > 0:16:15while you take those mouthfuls, tell me what dog food tastes like.
0:16:17 > 0:16:23It's a very meaty consistency which is obviously fantastic for dogs.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25There's liver, muscle meat in there.
0:16:25 > 0:16:29I have just eaten so I won't eat tremendous amounts of it
0:16:29 > 0:16:31but more than happy to eat it.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33- DEBORAH:- Sorry, can I smell it? - Yeah.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40- I think you passed Peter's little test there. Well done.- Thank you.
0:16:43 > 0:16:46With the challenge over, Deborah Meaden,
0:16:46 > 0:16:49who has previously invested in a pet treats business,
0:16:49 > 0:16:53now wants to understand more about what goes into this product.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Is anything lost in this process?
0:17:00 > 0:17:03What hasn't this got that raw food has got?
0:17:03 > 0:17:06I would say the fruit and veg in it is technically classed as raw
0:17:06 > 0:17:07and it's only been air-dried
0:17:07 > 0:17:10and the meats have only been air-dried to a temperature
0:17:10 > 0:17:13where it removes the risk of pathogens
0:17:13 > 0:17:15but it's not harming the natural amino acids in the meat.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17We often call it raw without the thaw,
0:17:17 > 0:17:21it's as close to raw or fresh food as you can get, really.
0:17:21 > 0:17:24We're backed by a few of the leading vets throughout the UK
0:17:24 > 0:17:25who now recommend Pure.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29- You've been in business eight months.- Yep.
0:17:29 > 0:17:31And how many have you sold again?
0:17:31 > 0:17:35Eh, turnover's just been over £35,000.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37So, how much is each one?
0:17:37 > 0:17:41Those smaller bags are priced between around £7 to £10.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44Typically, your Pedigree Chum-type biscuits...
0:17:44 > 0:17:46Is this expensive? I have no idea.
0:17:46 > 0:17:49Well, wet foods, for instance, are priced above that, generally.
0:17:49 > 0:17:53It's not something where we're creating a new ceiling on the price,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57it's very much what people are paying for good-quality foods already.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00And why are you going to win in that enormous pet food market with
0:18:00 > 0:18:04huge brands out there that, you know, could do this in a heartbeat?
0:18:04 > 0:18:08What stops somebody just copying this?
0:18:08 > 0:18:10We've got no proprietary rights on it,
0:18:10 > 0:18:15- just because it is such a simple process.- That's not a good thing.
0:18:15 > 0:18:16Yeah, I know,
0:18:16 > 0:18:21but I guess the main thing that stops a lot of the larger companies,
0:18:21 > 0:18:24presumably, is the minute they start making this product, it's ringing
0:18:24 > 0:18:27alarm bells to everyone else that this thing that we're making
0:18:27 > 0:18:30billions of pounds out of every year is not adequate any more.
0:18:30 > 0:18:33Well, they do until the day they see you making billions of pounds.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36Correct. Well, we've already got a bit of a first-mover advantage.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39Word does spread quite quickly and people aren't referring to
0:18:39 > 0:18:43it as dehydrated food, they already refer to it as Pure food.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46We could talk about this for hours, which is great.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48I mean, I've got to hand it to you guys.
0:18:48 > 0:18:53To be fair, it looks like a good product, you've done your homework.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55I'm really trying to get behind you on this one
0:18:55 > 0:18:57because I think you're great.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59But I just don't get the market
0:18:59 > 0:19:01and I'm not going to waste your time.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03I'll wish you all the best, but I'm out.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09There's lots of goodwill towards Daniel and Mat
0:19:09 > 0:19:12but the niche appeal of their product isn't for everyone.
0:19:14 > 0:19:18With Piers Linney gone, four Dragons remain,
0:19:18 > 0:19:21including pet food investor Deborah Meaden.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28Obviously, to be fair to anybody I invest in, I need to think about the
0:19:28 > 0:19:32relationship between any existing investment and any new investment.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35So, I was sitting here thinking, "Would it be fair?"
0:19:38 > 0:19:39So, I think if I'm very clear
0:19:39 > 0:19:43and open with you then I think there is a way that I can be fair.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48There would be certain things that we would do on our own as Pure
0:19:48 > 0:19:50but I would have to join those together at some point
0:19:50 > 0:19:53because otherwise I'm going to feel conflicted.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56You're going to look at me thinking, "Whose interests has she got at heart?"
0:19:56 > 0:19:57But, you know, you'd have to believe me
0:19:57 > 0:20:00that I would make sure that everybody got the best out of it.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03So, you'd have all the benefits of the contacts, so I'm going to
0:20:03 > 0:20:07offer you all of the money but I want 30% of the business.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10- OK.- OK. - Thank you, thank you very much.
0:20:13 > 0:20:15With her experience and her connections,
0:20:15 > 0:20:19Deborah Meaden serves up an inviting offer.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22But there's still time for other Dragons to take her on.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Guys, you've...you've been fantastic.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35You've made dog food almost cool in the Den, which is amazing.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38And the fact that you even then ate your own product,
0:20:38 > 0:20:40I'm kind of thinking these guys are committed.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46My issue is that...
0:20:48 > 0:20:52..I'm not convinced potentially without some
0:20:52 > 0:20:55sort of link that perhaps Deborah has, the size of the potential
0:20:55 > 0:21:02business, and the speed at which you could get a decent income out of it.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03I'm going to say that I'm out
0:21:03 > 0:21:07but wish you every bit of luck that you clearly deserve.
0:21:07 > 0:21:08BOTH: Thank you very much.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13- DUNCAN:- Um, Daniel, Mat.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16I agree with Peter, I think you pitched very, very well.
0:21:16 > 0:21:20Probably one of the best pitches I've seen in the Den in ten years.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23You obviously know your stuff.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29I love the brand as well, the Pure, I can see that selling.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32I really don't think there's anything I can add to your business.
0:21:32 > 0:21:36- OK.- I don't think it'd be fair for me to make an offer, so,
0:21:36 > 0:21:39for that reason only, I'm going to wish you the best of luck,
0:21:39 > 0:21:41I think you'll do fantastic, but I'm out.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43BOTH: Thank you.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49Kelly Hoppen is the only Dragon remaining.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52Will she compete with Deborah Meaden's offer?
0:21:54 > 0:22:00Guys, um, I don't have a dog but my daughter and step-daughters
0:22:00 > 0:22:02have always had animals
0:22:02 > 0:22:06and every person I know that has a dog seems to look
0:22:06 > 0:22:09after their dog as well as they look after their children,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11so there's definitely a market there.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15What I do know is that you need good marketing which I can help you with.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17I love the name, I like the packaging,
0:22:17 > 0:22:18I think both of you are great.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24So, I'd like to make you an offer for the full amount
0:22:24 > 0:22:26but I'd like 20% of the business.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29- OK. Thank you very much. - Thank you very much.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36A surprise move from Kelly Hoppen who,
0:22:36 > 0:22:41despite not even owning a dog, has undercut Deborah Meaden.
0:22:41 > 0:22:46The entrepreneurs now have to weigh up one Dragon's marketing guile
0:22:46 > 0:22:48against another one's first-rate contact book.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55Would either of you potentially be able to go slightly
0:22:55 > 0:22:59- lower at all on those equity levels? - I wouldn't and I'll tell you why.
0:22:59 > 0:23:04The biggest thing I can add for you is to open doors.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08Now, I can do that...instantly.
0:23:08 > 0:23:12And I can make a big difference to this small business.
0:23:14 > 0:23:19I also don't want to drop...the percentage.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22I feel that I could help you grow this business very quickly
0:23:22 > 0:23:25and I would enjoy doing it, which is most important for me.
0:23:25 > 0:23:26That's good.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29- Should we...? - Are we OK to have a quick chat?
0:23:32 > 0:23:34(OK.)
0:23:34 > 0:23:37(Basically, it's a high-equity stake,)
0:23:37 > 0:23:40(higher than we were both prepared to give away.)
0:23:40 > 0:23:43(We could do something with those contacts,)
0:23:43 > 0:23:45- (the contacts she could provide.) - (Yep.)
0:23:48 > 0:23:50- Ready?- Yeah.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00Well, firstly, thank you very much for your offers,
0:24:00 > 0:24:03we really appreciate all of your time.
0:24:03 > 0:24:04Out of the two offers,
0:24:04 > 0:24:07just because of the contacts that were possible,
0:24:07 > 0:24:10we're looking at Deborah's offer.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15But we're not comfortable giving away that
0:24:15 > 0:24:18amount of the company at this stage and we've worked
0:24:18 > 0:24:21so hard to get it to where it is now and we believe in it so much
0:24:21 > 0:24:25and the complication of your other brands as well...we don't feel
0:24:25 > 0:24:26comfortable with that, do we?
0:24:26 > 0:24:28I think it's something that,
0:24:28 > 0:24:32although we appreciate you guys, we genuinely believe we can do it.
0:24:32 > 0:24:36We want to give it a go and we feel we can get there.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40I think you'll regret that decision.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43- We really appreciate your time, thank you very much.- Good luck, guys.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45Thank you. See you later.
0:24:47 > 0:24:52Daniel and Mat snub both offers and walk away without any investment,
0:24:52 > 0:24:55to the astonishment of the Den.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58I sort of admire them for that business, crazy.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01To be honest, they should have taken the offer but what I do think
0:25:01 > 0:25:05is, what I liked is that if they're uncomfortable, I'd rather know now.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07We were always cautious that there might be some
0:25:07 > 0:25:11conflict of interest there and what she proposed and the equity
0:25:11 > 0:25:15stake, in the end, it was just a bit too much for us, to be honest.
0:25:15 > 0:25:16It just didn't feel right.
0:25:24 > 0:25:28Another entrepreneur hoping for a Dragon to elevate her
0:25:28 > 0:25:32business was Joan McCrossan, who came to the Den with her son George,
0:25:32 > 0:25:40looking for £65,000 for a 35% stake in her male grooming product range.
0:25:40 > 0:25:44Colour Me Shave comes in five vibrant colours with its own unique scent.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46But apart from the funky side of the gel,
0:25:46 > 0:25:49it does really give you a great shave.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52Piers Linney was eager to put her claims to the test.
0:25:54 > 0:25:57- That's it. - Keep going, Piers, come on.
0:25:58 > 0:26:03- That's perfect. If you feel it, your skin should be quite soft.- Yeah.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05Feel.
0:26:05 > 0:26:06The other Dragons were
0:26:06 > 0:26:09impressed by the smoothness of Piers Linney's complexion...
0:26:09 > 0:26:10No chance.
0:26:10 > 0:26:12THEY LAUGH
0:26:12 > 0:26:16..but were less impressed by some of Joan's answers.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20Especially where her gel sits in the marketplace.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22- What's the price of the product? - It's £9.99.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25- Wow.- Yep.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28That's a big issue, isn't it? And what's the cost?
0:26:28 > 0:26:30It currently costs me £3.51.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33- Crikey. - But we can get it down to a pound.
0:26:33 > 0:26:34- Yeah, you need to.- Yeah.
0:26:34 > 0:26:38Forget the pricing and everything else, I think it is ridiculous.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41And your skin, I don't know, it still looks a bit pink.
0:26:41 > 0:26:45I mean, are you sure if we put George under ultraviolet light,
0:26:45 > 0:26:47he doesn't look like some sort of ninja?
0:26:48 > 0:26:50Not letting up on the colour theme,
0:26:50 > 0:26:55Piers Linney thought the neon gels were a throwback to the 1990s.
0:26:55 > 0:26:57They don't look particularly natural,
0:26:57 > 0:27:00it looks like something you'd get in a Day-Glo stick in a nightclub.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02Yes, yes, but it is aqua-based, it does wash out.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05So, if I said to George, "Can I pour that pink bottle down your nice,
0:27:05 > 0:27:07"new white T-shirt?" he wouldn't flinch?
0:27:07 > 0:27:10No, I'd have to go and buy a box of Daz or something.
0:27:10 > 0:27:13Peter Jones also turned his attention to George.
0:27:13 > 0:27:17This time, his loyalty to Mum and the brand she's created.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20- Do you love your mum?- I do, yes.
0:27:20 > 0:27:24- If I ask you a question, will you answer it honestly?- I will, yeah.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27Do you use this every day or do you use another product as well?
0:27:27 > 0:27:29When I shave now, I do use this product, yes.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31- Do you pay for it? - No.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33Of course not.
0:27:33 > 0:27:36And his mother's thrown out everything else in his bathroom.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38DUNCAN LAUGHS
0:27:38 > 0:27:42It was left to Kelly Hoppen to sum up the mood in the Den.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44If I had been you, I wouldn't have done the colour,
0:27:44 > 0:27:48I would have just had lovely scents in a beautiful bottle for less money
0:27:48 > 0:27:51and I think you might've then been able to sell it for what it
0:27:51 > 0:27:54actually does for the skin rather than this gimmick which
0:27:54 > 0:27:56I honestly think is ridiculous.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59- I wish you luck but I'm out. - Thank you very much.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01So far in the Den,
0:28:01 > 0:28:05one entrepreneur has revealed he spent a seven-figure sum...
0:28:05 > 0:28:06How much money have you put into this?
0:28:06 > 0:28:08Between £900,000 and £1 million.
0:28:08 > 0:28:10- Whoa.- You have not. - I have.
0:28:11 > 0:28:15- ..and another pair turned down a five-figure sum.- It's crazy.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18They need to stop eating that dog food and eat some real food,
0:28:18 > 0:28:21get some nutrition in their bodies so they can make sensible decisions.
0:28:21 > 0:28:22But still no investment.
0:28:24 > 0:28:27So, what for the hopefuls yet to emerge from the lift?
0:28:27 > 0:28:30So, at what stage of your life did you decide to start selling
0:28:30 > 0:28:31dead things?
0:28:31 > 0:28:34I just can't believe you make that much money out of one book.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37- You're out.- Yeah, but they cannot possibly agree.
0:28:37 > 0:28:38If you don't think you can deliver that,
0:28:38 > 0:28:40there's no point wasting my time.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47Next to face the Dragons, Johnny Shimmin and Annie Morris.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50I could call them "cereal" entrepreneurs
0:28:50 > 0:28:53because they're in the breakfast business, but I won't.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56I'll just say they're trying to break into a crowded market.
0:29:27 > 0:29:28Hello, Dragons.
0:29:28 > 0:29:31My name's Johnny Shimmin and this is my business partner, Annie Morris,
0:29:31 > 0:29:35and we're the founders of a breakfast business called Spoon Cereals.
0:29:35 > 0:29:39We're here today to ask you for £50,000 in exchange for 10% equity in
0:29:39 > 0:29:43our start-up business to help take us to the next stage of our development.
0:29:43 > 0:29:44Finding a time for a healthy
0:29:44 > 0:29:47and tasty breakfast cereal during the week is a struggle for many
0:29:47 > 0:29:51people due to their long commutes on the way to work each morning.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54So, Annie and I started Spoon Cereals around six months ago
0:29:54 > 0:29:57and since that time, we've been trading at food fairs
0:29:57 > 0:30:00and markets where we've sold our fresh pots where we can,
0:30:00 > 0:30:03but mainly our dry packs for people to take away with them.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06Not only do we use high-quality ingredients
0:30:06 > 0:30:09but we also allow our customers to build their very own bowl from
0:30:09 > 0:30:13our range of handmade granola and mueslis which our customers
0:30:13 > 0:30:16can then top up with our exciting and fresh toppings.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19In the last couple of weeks, we've been running at a pop-up
0:30:19 > 0:30:22site in Old Street Station in the London Underground.
0:30:22 > 0:30:25The feedback that we've had on our product so far has been excellent
0:30:25 > 0:30:28and we feel that the business has a lot of momentum right now.
0:30:28 > 0:30:30We feel that there's a lot of interesting ways that the
0:30:30 > 0:30:32business can develop in the future and Annie
0:30:32 > 0:30:36and I particularly would like to go down the wholesale route, ultimately.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39So, Annie and I are now going to make you up a pot of our granola
0:30:39 > 0:30:43with some banana yoghurt, some fresh blueberries and some toasted almonds.
0:30:45 > 0:30:48A wholesome pitch from Johnny Shimmin and Annie Morris,
0:30:48 > 0:30:51who want to transform our breakfast routine
0:30:51 > 0:30:55with their bespoke eat-on-the-move cereal pots.
0:30:55 > 0:30:57Kelly, I know you're gluten intolerant
0:30:57 > 0:30:59- so we got you a gluten-free granola there.- Thank you.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04They're also hoping to break into retail by selling
0:31:04 > 0:31:07packs of their dry product to supermarkets.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12Duncan Bannatyne is first to question the entrepreneurs.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20Um, so what exactly are you going to wholesale?
0:31:20 > 0:31:24- The dry packs, the packs that we've just handed out.- Just the packs?
0:31:24 > 0:31:28- Just the packs.- That's all? So what's the point of these?
0:31:28 > 0:31:30Well, this was the core concept -
0:31:30 > 0:31:34to have a great-tasting cereal that you could get on the go.
0:31:34 > 0:31:38And I think that we've come to the realisation that we can make
0:31:38 > 0:31:41a profitable business out of having our own sites,
0:31:41 > 0:31:43but it's never going to be super big.
0:31:43 > 0:31:47And we've decided to shift that focus,
0:31:47 > 0:31:49going forward a little bit, towards the wholesale market
0:31:49 > 0:31:53because we know that there's a market for the product that we're selling.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56- But you've got huge competition, haven't you?- Absolutely.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58So, how are you going to compete with them?
0:31:58 > 0:32:01We know that it's a crowded market but it's also a very large market.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04It's a market of about £1.9 billion in the UK.
0:32:04 > 0:32:05The answer that we've had
0:32:05 > 0:32:08when we've had these debates internally is that we come
0:32:08 > 0:32:10back to the product that we're offering
0:32:10 > 0:32:13and the feedback that we get daily from people about the fresh pots.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16Can't you package this and sell it? And it comes and you take the lid off?
0:32:16 > 0:32:18We've had a lot of requests for that and it's something...
0:32:18 > 0:32:21You know, when I mentioned in the pitch about interesting
0:32:21 > 0:32:24areas for development, again, we've had these discussions.
0:32:24 > 0:32:29There's lots of areas where we think you could develop it and we have
0:32:29 > 0:32:32to think about the packaging and exactly what the right product is.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35Well, I had something similar to this for breakfast this morning.
0:32:35 > 0:32:37And it was sent here by post.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40- OK. With the wet ingredients included in there?- Mm.
0:32:40 > 0:32:42OK. And was it good?
0:32:42 > 0:32:44- It was very good.- OK.
0:32:44 > 0:32:46And that's your competition.
0:32:49 > 0:32:53A bad start to questioning as Duncan Bannatyne highlights
0:32:53 > 0:32:57just what the fledgling company is up against.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59Now, Piers Linney wants to get personal
0:32:59 > 0:33:03and find out more about this entrepreneurial double act.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08So, what's the story between you two?
0:33:08 > 0:33:10Or the history or the relationship?
0:33:10 > 0:33:15Erm, so I have a background in graphic design
0:33:15 > 0:33:18and worked in advertising for a couple of years
0:33:18 > 0:33:22and then Johnny is my sister's boyfriend.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25Johnny works in private equity and he moved...
0:33:25 > 0:33:27Well, you can explain, can't you?
0:33:27 > 0:33:29So, I was living in Amsterdam for the last six years
0:33:29 > 0:33:31and I moved back to London in October.
0:33:31 > 0:33:35- So, you're out of the private equity investment fund?- Totally.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38- When I came back to London, I... - So, you made some money doing that?
0:33:38 > 0:33:41- A little bit of money, not too much. - And you've backed this so far?
0:33:41 > 0:33:45- So far, it's been my backing, yes. - And how much have you put into it?
0:33:45 > 0:33:48We've put in £25,000 so far.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51The bank account's running at about 8k at the moment.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54And how are you living at the moment?
0:33:54 > 0:33:58So, we've both been on this full-time since about January
0:33:58 > 0:34:04and so I'm living off my savings and also funding the business.
0:34:04 > 0:34:07And I'm living off savings as well.
0:34:07 > 0:34:08So, money's going fast.
0:34:08 > 0:34:12Yeah, so we put a sort of six-month runway on it to get
0:34:12 > 0:34:16the project up and running and I think that it might be that it
0:34:16 > 0:34:20- needs a little bit more money at some point.- How long can you keep going?
0:34:20 > 0:34:22If no more money went into the business,
0:34:22 > 0:34:25then we're probably looking at another three months.
0:34:28 > 0:34:30So, a product that is super healthy
0:34:30 > 0:34:33but a cash-flow situation which is anything but.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38Will Kelly Hoppen throw the entrepreneurs the financial
0:34:38 > 0:34:40lifeline they so desperately need?
0:34:43 > 0:34:45I love the name Spoon and the branding
0:34:45 > 0:34:50but I think this business, to really make it grow and to be big,
0:34:50 > 0:34:53because I've been involved in another business very similar,
0:34:53 > 0:34:55you have to build the brand.
0:34:55 > 0:34:59You have to have a story, a book, other recipes.
0:34:59 > 0:35:04I don't think you can just make enough return just on a cereal
0:35:04 > 0:35:07and I would not feel comfortable taking a percentage of your
0:35:07 > 0:35:12business because you're too small, I think, to be in the Den right now.
0:35:12 > 0:35:14I'm not going to invest so I'm afraid I'm out.
0:35:14 > 0:35:17- DUNCAN:- Um, Johnny, Annie,
0:35:17 > 0:35:21you have got a very good product, it's a good brand,
0:35:21 > 0:35:23it looks good, it's packaged very, very well.
0:35:25 > 0:35:26But it's a lot of work.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29Not just making a profit from these products but making a profit
0:35:29 > 0:35:32in the supermarkets anyway cos they squeeze your margins so hard.
0:35:32 > 0:35:34I know they're squeezing mine.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37- So, I wish you the best of luck but I'm out.- Thanks, Duncan.
0:35:40 > 0:35:41I'm going to tell you where I am.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44I think it's a bit of a cottage business, potentially,
0:35:44 > 0:35:49so I can't see how you can invest 50k and make a return.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52I think where you can succeed is retail, and there,
0:35:52 > 0:35:54you're just going to hit a shelf of this stuff.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56It's hugely competitive.
0:35:56 > 0:36:00And adding the value by experience is great but that's not actually
0:36:00 > 0:36:04a business as far as I'm concerned. So, good luck with it, but I'm out.
0:36:04 > 0:36:05Thanks, Piers.
0:36:11 > 0:36:15Three Dragons have declared themselves out.
0:36:15 > 0:36:20With only two possible investors still in the mix, it's crunch time.
0:36:24 > 0:36:29It's a really, really tough ask in what you're trying to do,
0:36:29 > 0:36:33it's a big challenge, and I think when you then want to try
0:36:33 > 0:36:36and move into the retail space, you know,
0:36:36 > 0:36:39there's lots of companies that are even struggling today,
0:36:39 > 0:36:42and I know how tough and competitive that market is.
0:36:44 > 0:36:47But I think the branding's fantastic.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49I like Spoon, I like the cereals, I like the whole concept
0:36:49 > 0:36:53but I think that you've done a really good job of packaging it
0:36:53 > 0:36:55and seeing this on a shelf, you can
0:36:55 > 0:37:00imagine at the end of a gondola, you can see where that could go.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02So, on that basis, I'm going to make you an offer.
0:37:02 > 0:37:03PIERS SNORTS
0:37:07 > 0:37:11And I'm offering it on the basis that I think I could do quite a lot
0:37:11 > 0:37:14because I've got a current team that work in this area with retailers,
0:37:14 > 0:37:16particularly with foods,
0:37:16 > 0:37:18and obviously with Levi in the background,
0:37:18 > 0:37:20this is something that is tied in very, very well
0:37:20 > 0:37:21with our experience with retail.
0:37:23 > 0:37:25So, I'm going to ask for a little bit more
0:37:25 > 0:37:29but I'm going to make you an offer of 50,000, so all the money,
0:37:29 > 0:37:32but I want 30% of the business.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34OK. Thank you very much.
0:37:41 > 0:37:43An offer, and one from a Dragon
0:37:43 > 0:37:47with an impressive food portfolio to boot.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49But Deborah Meaden is still in
0:37:49 > 0:37:53and she's remained tight-lipped throughout.
0:37:53 > 0:37:54Which way will she go?
0:37:56 > 0:38:00So, great news is it's not complicated.
0:38:00 > 0:38:02It's lovely and simple, I can see exactly what it is.
0:38:02 > 0:38:04It's presented rather beautifully,
0:38:04 > 0:38:07I think the simplicity of this is lovely.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09Um, so I'm going to make you an offer
0:38:09 > 0:38:13and I'm going to offer you all of the money, but I agree with Peter.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17I think it needs a lot of time in working that out because you
0:38:17 > 0:38:22are very early on your journey, so I too would want 30% of the business.
0:38:24 > 0:38:25- BOTH:- Thank you.
0:38:30 > 0:38:33- Can we have a couple of minutes just to chat? PETER:- Of course.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39- (So?) ANNIE:- (What do you think?)
0:38:40 > 0:38:42- ( ..15 each?) - (Yeah.)
0:38:42 > 0:38:44- (Let's try that.) - (OK.)
0:38:44 > 0:38:46(If not, we'll...)
0:38:54 > 0:38:58Um, Annie and I would like to ask if you'd consider working
0:38:58 > 0:39:02together on this for the equity percentages that you've talked about?
0:39:04 > 0:39:07- So, dropping to 15%?- Correct.
0:39:13 > 0:39:16I wouldn't have any qualms about sharing with Deborah
0:39:16 > 0:39:19because we're at 15% still,
0:39:19 > 0:39:23but you'd have to ask Ms Meaden.
0:39:27 > 0:39:28And Deborah?
0:39:31 > 0:39:34- Yeah, I'd be happy to do that. - Well, fantastic.- Brilliant.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37- We'd love to work with both of you in that case.- Excellent.
0:39:37 > 0:39:39- Thank you so much.- Good.
0:39:39 > 0:39:41Johnny and Annie have done it.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46They may have given away more equity than they'd planned,
0:39:46 > 0:39:51but they've managed to cut a deal with two multimillionaire investors.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53Thanks, guys.
0:39:59 > 0:40:02Amazing, amazing.
0:40:02 > 0:40:04I can't wait to tell my mum.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08I think we're going to hear a lot about Spoon.
0:40:08 > 0:40:12- You going to leave out the spooning jokes?- No, no spooning, Deborah.
0:40:12 > 0:40:13DEBORAH CHUCKLES
0:40:16 > 0:40:19Whether you're on the receiving end of an investment or not,
0:40:19 > 0:40:22it takes absolute belief in your business
0:40:22 > 0:40:24to face the formidable five.
0:40:26 > 0:40:29It's scary. You walk in and they're very, very scary.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33It was quite nerve-racking going into the Den.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35You're always on your guard.
0:40:35 > 0:40:37When there's five Dragons looking at you,
0:40:37 > 0:40:39it's the hardest thing in the world.
0:40:42 > 0:40:44Norman Wright was next in the Den.
0:40:44 > 0:40:49He was looking for £50,000 for 20% of his natural history
0:40:49 > 0:40:55and taxidermy retail business aptly named The Weird And Wonderful.
0:40:55 > 0:40:57The Weird And Wonderful is a high street natural history store
0:40:57 > 0:41:00that prides itself on providing the highest-quality products
0:41:00 > 0:41:03while focusing on sustainability and ethical practice.
0:41:03 > 0:41:06In my first year, I turned over £57,000
0:41:06 > 0:41:10and reinvested most of this back into the company to aid growth.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14Norman's products gave Peter Jones the heebie-jeebies.
0:41:14 > 0:41:18- Is the other half of that buffalo behind the screen?- No.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21- Do you live on your own? - I currently live with my parents.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24- What do your parents think of this? - They love it.- Do they?- Yeah.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26So, at what stage of your life
0:41:26 > 0:41:28did you decide to start selling dead things?
0:41:29 > 0:41:33Interior designer Kelly Hoppen could see that Norman's idea had
0:41:33 > 0:41:36the bones of a successful venture.
0:41:36 > 0:41:40I know that actually this could be an enormous business
0:41:40 > 0:41:42because I've seen some of the greatest
0:41:42 > 0:41:46- taxidermists in the world have got incredible showrooms in Paris.- Yeah.
0:41:46 > 0:41:51Jo Wood's son does an incredible artistic taxidermist with art
0:41:51 > 0:41:52and sculpture and whatever.
0:41:52 > 0:41:55But I would not put any of this in the work that I do.
0:41:57 > 0:41:59Deborah Meaden thought she had spotted
0:41:59 > 0:42:03a skeleton in the closet of Norman's ethical business.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06What about these poor little creatures here?
0:42:06 > 0:42:09The entomology is bred for display.
0:42:09 > 0:42:12Sorry, so this little creature was bred for the purpose
0:42:12 > 0:42:16- of sticking in a picture?- Yeah, but although that sounds bad...
0:42:16 > 0:42:19- Oh, that sounds bad. - ..it's regulated.
0:42:19 > 0:42:20That still doesn't make it right.
0:42:20 > 0:42:23I'm buying from breeders rather than taking from the wild.
0:42:23 > 0:42:26You're actually giving something back to the communities that
0:42:26 > 0:42:28breed them rather than just taking.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31Do you see that this potentially might encourage more?
0:42:31 > 0:42:34I don't want to encourage anyone, obviously, to go out and start
0:42:34 > 0:42:39shooting animals to fill collections, I want to supply ethical taxidermy.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42Yeah, but you say that on one hand and yet you justify
0:42:42 > 0:42:47that by your biggest-selling line is something that's bred to be killed.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51Soon, it was Norman's pitch which was to be terminated.
0:42:51 > 0:42:53I just don't get it, it's bonkers.
0:42:53 > 0:42:58I mean, you may as well call it zoodeath.com. It's a fashion.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01I don't think this is weird and wonderful, I think this is weird,
0:43:01 > 0:43:05weird, weird. So, I'm not going to invest. For that reason, I'm out.
0:43:05 > 0:43:06OK. Thank you very much.
0:43:06 > 0:43:11He had to fight or flee, and Norman ultimately chose to flee,
0:43:11 > 0:43:15and the Dragons were keen to see the back of his products.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17I'd be terrified to be left alone with him.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20That buffalo hasn't stopped looking at me.
0:43:20 > 0:43:22Anyway, where's my fur coat?
0:43:34 > 0:43:36You can make money by selling stuff.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39But you can make more money by selling stuff that makes
0:43:39 > 0:43:41consumers feel special,
0:43:41 > 0:43:46and our final entrepreneurs are using technology to do exactly that.
0:43:54 > 0:43:56- Here we go.- Off we go.
0:44:13 > 0:44:17- Hello, everyone, my name is Asi. - My name's David.
0:44:17 > 0:44:21David and I are two of four friends who, together,
0:44:21 > 0:44:25made Lost My Name, a magical personalised book for children.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28We've taken the idea of a children's personalised book to
0:44:28 > 0:44:32a completely new level and we like to think that we've created
0:44:32 > 0:44:35the best personalised book on the market.
0:44:37 > 0:44:41So, the books are called The Little Girl Who Lost Her Name
0:44:41 > 0:44:43and The Little Boy Who Lost His Name
0:44:43 > 0:44:47and they follow a child on a marvellous, magical adventure.
0:44:47 > 0:44:51So, this is how it works. You go to our website.
0:44:52 > 0:44:54And you put in the name of a child.
0:44:54 > 0:44:56So, in this case, we'll put in Emily.
0:44:58 > 0:45:02And then you choose boy or girl, so, girl. Hit preview.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05And we work our magic behind the scenes,
0:45:05 > 0:45:09choosing from a huge database of storage and illustrations.
0:45:09 > 0:45:11And you can see your book.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13So, if we just open it,
0:45:13 > 0:45:16here she is, the little girl's woken up
0:45:16 > 0:45:20and, oh, her name's disappeared. So off she goes to find it.
0:45:20 > 0:45:21She meets an eagle,
0:45:21 > 0:45:23flies into the sky on its back,
0:45:23 > 0:45:26then she meets a mermaid,
0:45:26 > 0:45:28little girl helps her out.
0:45:28 > 0:45:32Next she meets an Inuit man who can't stand the cold.
0:45:32 > 0:45:34Next she meets a lion.
0:45:34 > 0:45:38And finally, a genial and very, very clever yeti.
0:45:39 > 0:45:43All of these characters give the girl the first letter of their name.
0:45:43 > 0:45:45So E for eagle, M for mermaid,
0:45:45 > 0:45:47I for Inuit, L for lion,
0:45:47 > 0:45:51Y for yeti and - hey presto - her name is found.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53If you like it, you order it online,
0:45:53 > 0:45:56we print it and we deliver it to your door in days.
0:45:56 > 0:46:00Thank you, David. Erm, Lost My Name started as a pet project.
0:46:00 > 0:46:04We launched it back in October last year
0:46:04 > 0:46:06and since then, in six months,
0:46:06 > 0:46:09we've sold 30,000 copies of the books,
0:46:09 > 0:46:12we've shipped them to over 60 countries in the world,
0:46:12 > 0:46:15and we did it with very little marketing spend.
0:46:15 > 0:46:19We're going to create a new, exciting company
0:46:19 > 0:46:21that combines the power of stories
0:46:21 > 0:46:24with the possibility of technology
0:46:24 > 0:46:28to create more magical, amazing experiences for children.
0:46:28 > 0:46:32We're here today to invite you to join our seed investment round,
0:46:32 > 0:46:34and we're asking for £100,000
0:46:34 > 0:46:36for 4% equity in our business.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41- Thank you for listening. - Could we see one of the books?
0:46:41 > 0:46:42- Yes.- Thank you.
0:46:45 > 0:46:49A tall tale or a winning pitch from Asi and David?
0:46:49 > 0:46:52They're looking for a hefty £100,000
0:46:52 > 0:46:55for just 4% of their innovative children's book.
0:46:55 > 0:46:58The team behind Lost My Name
0:46:58 > 0:47:02just have to hope they haven't already lost Peter Jones' interest.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08Guys, when you were pitching it,
0:47:08 > 0:47:11I was sort of almost looking in the air, thinking,
0:47:11 > 0:47:13"This won't last very long."
0:47:14 > 0:47:17And then when you gave me these five books and I opened them up
0:47:17 > 0:47:19and I saw my children's names in it,
0:47:19 > 0:47:22my brain disengaged and my heart went to mush.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25That happens to a lot of people who get the books.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28Our success has been a lot of word of mouth,
0:47:28 > 0:47:31and the feedback we get from Facebook and Twitter and bloggers
0:47:31 > 0:47:33is just overwhelming.
0:47:33 > 0:47:37The kids adore it, the parents adore reading it to the kids and it's...
0:47:37 > 0:47:40Yeah, word of mouth has been phenomenal for us.
0:47:40 > 0:47:42- It's quite...- It's intriguing.
0:47:44 > 0:47:45Hi, there. I'm Kelly.
0:47:45 > 0:47:49I think it's a really lovely idea. What does it cost?
0:47:49 > 0:47:52- Each one is exactly the same? - The book?- Each book, yeah.
0:47:52 > 0:47:53For the customer?
0:47:53 > 0:47:56Yeah, because if you have a longer name it's going to be more pages.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59Yeah, we're not going to punish people for getting longer...
0:47:59 > 0:48:02Well, kids for getting longer names or shorter names.
0:48:02 > 0:48:05- So the book costs exactly the same for everyone.- Which is?
0:48:05 > 0:48:09- Which is 18.99.- 18? OK.- 18.99.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11What's your turnover to date?
0:48:12 > 0:48:15We turned over £460,000 to date.
0:48:15 > 0:48:18- £460,000 to date?- Yeah.
0:48:18 > 0:48:22- Just selling those books. - Six months. Yes.- Wow.
0:48:23 > 0:48:26I just can't believe you can make that much money out of one book.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30An impressive business.
0:48:30 > 0:48:32So much so that Asi and David
0:48:32 > 0:48:36have already bagged substantial investment -
0:48:36 > 0:48:40£250,000 from a venture capitalist.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42But that creates a problem.
0:48:42 > 0:48:46It leaves little room for the Dragons to negotiate on equity.
0:48:46 > 0:48:50Peter Jones wants to explore this investment conundrum.
0:48:53 > 0:48:56- You did say 4%, didn't you?- Yeah.
0:48:56 > 0:48:59Which was almost terrifying.
0:49:02 > 0:49:05So you've obviously seen Dragons' Den on television, have you?
0:49:05 > 0:49:08- BOTH: Yeah. - And watched it?
0:49:08 > 0:49:12I like to think that one of the big things about what we do here
0:49:12 > 0:49:14is that we're investors on one side
0:49:14 > 0:49:18but at the same time we do like to negotiate quite hard.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22- You realise that?- Yep.- Yep.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25We also like to... If we like the idea,
0:49:25 > 0:49:26and we want to put our money up,
0:49:26 > 0:49:29we quite like to get as much share of that business,
0:49:29 > 0:49:32and it's not suggesting for one minute we could possibly be greedy,
0:49:32 > 0:49:35however, we do like to get the best deal possible.
0:49:35 > 0:49:37So my question to you is,
0:49:37 > 0:49:38if you have a venture capitalist
0:49:38 > 0:49:42that's invested a quarter of a million pounds at 10%,
0:49:42 > 0:49:47I clearly understand why you're pitching for £100,000 at 4%,
0:49:47 > 0:49:53but would you be able to negotiate a higher percentage share than 4%,
0:49:53 > 0:49:55and how would the VC feel?
0:49:56 > 0:49:59I'm afraid that the valuation is fixed.
0:49:59 > 0:50:03We've raised most of the fund.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07We cannot really negotiate the equity.
0:50:07 > 0:50:08Hmm.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14A dogged attempt by Peter Jones
0:50:14 > 0:50:18to see if the entrepreneurs will budge on the 4% share on offer
0:50:18 > 0:50:20has come to nothing.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23Kelly Hoppen has made up her mind.
0:50:27 > 0:50:30If you had been able to move on the percentage
0:50:30 > 0:50:32I would have invested in this today,
0:50:32 > 0:50:34because it's right up my street
0:50:34 > 0:50:36and I know I could have brought something to the table
0:50:36 > 0:50:38with you guys and what you're doing.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40You know, I'm going to watch out for you
0:50:40 > 0:50:41and I wish you luck,
0:50:41 > 0:50:43but, unfortunately, I'm out.
0:50:43 > 0:50:45- Thank you.- Thank you very much.
0:50:45 > 0:50:48Guys, I'm going to tell you where I am.
0:50:48 > 0:50:50Erm, I think it's lovely,
0:50:50 > 0:50:53I think the illustrations are lovely.
0:50:53 > 0:50:57I actually think it's expensive
0:50:57 > 0:50:59for a softback book.
0:50:59 > 0:51:01I'd be really pleased with the book,
0:51:01 > 0:51:04then I'd feel a bit, oh, maybe it doesn't feel
0:51:04 > 0:51:09quite as substantial for £20.
0:51:09 > 0:51:15And at 4%, I'm not therefore terribly engaged or excited by it.
0:51:15 > 0:51:18I can tell you really quickly
0:51:18 > 0:51:21I won't be investing, so I'm out.
0:51:22 > 0:51:24Guys...
0:51:25 > 0:51:27It's a really big ask
0:51:27 > 0:51:30to make a decision on a non-negotiable basis,
0:51:30 > 0:51:32whether, however good the idea is,
0:51:32 > 0:51:34to invest £100,000 for 4%.
0:51:36 > 0:51:38It will be interesting to see in five years' time
0:51:38 > 0:51:40whether £100,000 for 4%
0:51:40 > 0:51:42could have got a return.
0:51:43 > 0:51:47But it's just too rich for me to make that jump.
0:51:47 > 0:51:50I'm going to say that I'm out, but wish you the best of luck.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52Thank you very much.
0:51:54 > 0:51:58A further blow for the publishing innovators.
0:52:00 > 0:52:03Only Duncan Bannatyne and Piers Linney remain.
0:52:05 > 0:52:07Will their early enthusiasm
0:52:07 > 0:52:10for the money-making potential of these books
0:52:10 > 0:52:13overcome Asi and David's fixed share structure?
0:52:18 > 0:52:21What do you want from a Dragon, apart from £100,000 for 4%?
0:52:21 > 0:52:24What do you think a Dragon can add?
0:52:24 > 0:52:27Erm...
0:52:27 > 0:52:28Expertise.
0:52:28 > 0:52:32Well, I think that it's going to be two key things.
0:52:32 > 0:52:34A, opening doors.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37Again, just cut the time that it will take me
0:52:37 > 0:52:40to go into Selfridges and John Lewis and all the major retailers.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43Can't your venture capitalist do that?
0:52:43 > 0:52:44Erm... To a degree,
0:52:44 > 0:52:45but I'm sure that, you know,
0:52:45 > 0:52:49you guys can probably do the same, only quicker.
0:52:49 > 0:52:52Erm... And equally...
0:52:52 > 0:52:55the PR element
0:52:55 > 0:52:57of having one of you guys on...
0:52:57 > 0:52:59So what's that worth?
0:52:59 > 0:53:01HE SIGHS
0:53:01 > 0:53:05- So what's that worth?- Let me just finish this a minute.- Honestly...
0:53:05 > 0:53:07- Piers, let me just finish this a minute.- Duncan...
0:53:07 > 0:53:09I'll come back to you in a minute.
0:53:09 > 0:53:12So you said opening doors, didn't you, into the shops?
0:53:12 > 0:53:16I just don't see how your venture capitalists can't do that.
0:53:16 > 0:53:18And if they can't,
0:53:18 > 0:53:23and you're therefore getting an extra benefit from a Dragon,
0:53:23 > 0:53:25why aren't you offering us a better deal?
0:53:26 > 0:53:28Erm...
0:53:29 > 0:53:31HE SIGHS
0:53:31 > 0:53:34We're just not in a position to do it right now.
0:53:34 > 0:53:36You see, that's one of the problems.
0:53:36 > 0:53:39You've got a venture-capitalist investor already
0:53:39 > 0:53:42and he's now stopping you doing something that you would've done
0:53:42 > 0:53:44before you took his investment.
0:53:44 > 0:53:45That's one of the problems
0:53:45 > 0:53:47when you get people like that investing in you.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50Erm, I think it just complicates it so much.
0:53:52 > 0:53:54I think, you know, this is a great book
0:53:54 > 0:53:56and I wish you the very, very best of luck with it,
0:53:56 > 0:53:59but it's not an investment for me,
0:53:59 > 0:54:02not at 4% for £100,000.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04I'm going to have to say good luck but I'm out.
0:54:04 > 0:54:07Thank you.
0:54:08 > 0:54:12Piers Linney is the only Dragon still in the game.
0:54:12 > 0:54:16Could his strong background in finance and in technology
0:54:16 > 0:54:18help him find a way through this deadlock?
0:54:18 > 0:54:21I'm still getting my head around the business.
0:54:21 > 0:54:25You've got a VC, a venture capitalist interested.
0:54:25 > 0:54:29So if you've got other investors, the private individuals,
0:54:29 > 0:54:31what kind of terms are they getting?
0:54:31 > 0:54:34They are getting ordinary shares like us.
0:54:34 > 0:54:38- So what's the VC getting that isn't ordinary shares?- Preferred shares.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40Cos you've come in with a structure,
0:54:40 > 0:54:42and no matter how creative I try and be now,
0:54:42 > 0:54:45I'm going to struggle to work around that structure.
0:54:46 > 0:54:48Be creative and put an offer in.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58Did you think, is there anyway possible
0:54:58 > 0:54:59you could go back to the VCs
0:54:59 > 0:55:02and say to them...
0:55:02 > 0:55:05"A Dragon will invest if you also take ordinary shares."
0:55:05 > 0:55:08Or are they hung up on their preference?
0:55:10 > 0:55:12Erm...
0:55:13 > 0:55:15I don't have the answer for that.
0:55:15 > 0:55:17The other question is,
0:55:17 > 0:55:21would you guys entertain a slightly lower valuation,
0:55:21 > 0:55:24say a 5% investment equity, rather than 4%.
0:55:24 > 0:55:26Would you take that on board and accept that?
0:55:32 > 0:55:33Erm...
0:55:34 > 0:55:40We will be happy to consider another 1%
0:55:40 > 0:55:43if you are coming on our advisory board
0:55:43 > 0:55:44and bringing the value,
0:55:44 > 0:55:47bringing the attention that we need.
0:55:51 > 0:55:52I'll make you an offer.
0:55:53 > 0:55:575%, all the money, 100 grand,
0:55:57 > 0:56:00but all your investors on this round
0:56:00 > 0:56:01take ordinary shares
0:56:01 > 0:56:04and the terms I get are no different to the VCs.
0:56:06 > 0:56:09Obviously I wouldn't be able to answer that question right now.
0:56:09 > 0:56:12If you don't think you can deliver that, there's no point in wasting my time.
0:56:12 > 0:56:16If you think you can, there's a potential, and you're interested,
0:56:16 > 0:56:17then maybe there's a deal.
0:56:17 > 0:56:20We definitely want to explore that option.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23Listen, are you going to take away the offer I made or not?
0:56:23 > 0:56:25You don't look quite as convinced...
0:56:25 > 0:56:27Piers, you know they cannot agree to change the terms with the...
0:56:27 > 0:56:31- But you know they can't.- He don't look as convinced.- You know...
0:56:31 > 0:56:35- Hey, I'm the writer here. - You're out.- Yeah, but I don't...
0:56:35 > 0:56:38- You've got to do something that precludes...- Deborah, you're out.
0:56:38 > 0:56:39Yeah, but this isn't fair.
0:56:39 > 0:56:42They cannot possibly agree to change the terms...
0:56:42 > 0:56:44Well, let me conclude.
0:56:44 > 0:56:46Cos are you interested? You don't look as keen.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49- If you're not, there's no point in taking it away.- It's not that.
0:56:49 > 0:56:50I'm the writer, so when it comes to
0:56:50 > 0:56:53talking about this sort of complexity, I'm just not...
0:56:53 > 0:56:55So are you going to take that away?
0:57:06 > 0:57:07I accept your offer,
0:57:07 > 0:57:11subject to our other shareholders agreeing to the deal.
0:57:11 > 0:57:12Great.
0:57:14 > 0:57:15Well done, guys.
0:57:15 > 0:57:17After some shrewd negotiating -
0:57:17 > 0:57:20with some spiky input from a fellow Dragon -
0:57:20 > 0:57:23Piers Linney makes Den history,
0:57:23 > 0:57:26exchanging such a large amount of cash
0:57:26 > 0:57:29for the smallest ever stake in a business.
0:57:29 > 0:57:31Bit of an odd one,
0:57:31 > 0:57:33because they can't possibly agree for their VCs...
0:57:33 > 0:57:37- You can't do it. - But they might do it.
0:57:37 > 0:57:40But the entrepreneurs are more optimistic.
0:57:40 > 0:57:41Interesting.
0:57:41 > 0:57:44It would be amazing to have Piers on board.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47I want to believe that we can work it out with the other shareholders
0:57:47 > 0:57:49and actually seal that deal.
0:57:54 > 0:57:58Well, I am happy to report that Asi and David's other investors
0:57:58 > 0:58:00did accept Piers Linney's conditions
0:58:00 > 0:58:03and the deal has gone through.
0:58:03 > 0:58:06That's it from the Den, but if you want to join the conversation
0:58:06 > 0:58:08about tonight's pitches,
0:58:08 > 0:58:10you can do so on Twitter,
0:58:10 > 0:58:13using the hashtag #dragonsden.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16Next time in the Den...
0:58:16 > 0:58:18Oh, my God.
0:58:18 > 0:58:21Sorry! Just technical problems with the lift.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25How much money have you spent on getting it to this point now?
0:58:25 > 0:58:26About £90,000.
0:58:26 > 0:58:30- And it's three years of your life.- Yeah.- Why?
0:58:30 > 0:58:32Looks like you're hiding your wife in a suit carrier.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35- Yeah. Or part of her. - It does look a bit random!
0:58:35 > 0:58:36I just want to ask Peter a question.
0:58:36 > 0:58:39Sorry, before he does, can I have some more drink?
0:58:39 > 0:58:41If this is going where I think it's going, I'm getting pissed.