0:00:03 > 0:00:04'You're deluded in your approach.'
0:00:04 > 0:00:07'It doesn't matter what the business is, it's my return that matters.'
0:00:07 > 0:00:10- 'I would want 40%.' - 'Would you invest in it?'
0:00:10 > 0:00:12- 'I'm irritated.' - 'I'm out.'
0:00:27 > 0:00:30These are the Dragons.
0:00:30 > 0:00:37Wealthy, well connected, innovative and influential.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Each week, they make or break the
0:00:39 > 0:00:42dreams of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49In the den, leisure and marketing expert Deborah Meaden...
0:00:51 > 0:00:53..telecoms giant Peter Jones...
0:00:54 > 0:00:57..hotel and health club owner Duncan Bannatyne...
0:00:58 > 0:01:03..founder of her own global interior design brand Kelly Hoppen,
0:01:03 > 0:01:07and cloud computing expert and former city financier Piers Linney.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11With thousands to lose but millions to gain,
0:01:11 > 0:01:15the Dragons are prepared to fight for that next shrewd investment.
0:01:18 > 0:01:19In the last decade,
0:01:19 > 0:01:22over 900 entrepreneurs have faced the Dragons
0:01:22 > 0:01:26and investment offers of £14.5m have been made in this room.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30To face them takes nerve and vision.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32So, who will leave with the Dragon's money?
0:01:40 > 0:01:42Welcome to the Dragons' Den.
0:01:42 > 0:01:44More entrepreneurs are here with
0:01:44 > 0:01:46their dreams of business success,
0:01:46 > 0:01:48and the stakes couldn't be higher.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Succeed and they leave with the backing of a Dragon investor,
0:01:51 > 0:01:53fail and they leave with nothing.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55Coming up on tonight's show...
0:01:57 > 0:01:59Dave, you just look worn out.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01I went on a heavy stag do at the weekend.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05I'm over 65 and I don't use a walking stick.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07No.
0:02:07 > 0:02:08You're basically a sales agent.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Yes.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13For an investor, that is massive, massive risk.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15The thing is, I'm crazy about marshmallows,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18but these taste a bit stale.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21I'm going to make you a higher offer.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37First into the den are Yorkshire couple Richard and Lynn Bye.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40They believe that the growing number of middle-aged men swapping
0:02:40 > 0:02:44four wheels for two presents a lucrative commercial opportunity.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49What do I let you talk me into?
0:02:52 > 0:02:53It'll be fine.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Will the Dragons buy into their plans to peddle a range
0:02:58 > 0:03:02of cycle wear designed to flatter the fuller figure?
0:03:04 > 0:03:06- Hello, Dragons, my name's Lynn.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08- And I'm Richard.
0:03:08 > 0:03:10- And we're from Fat Lad At The Back.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13- And we're here to ask for £80,000 investment for 10% of our company.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15Fat Lad At The Back is a new sportswear brand
0:03:15 > 0:03:22aimed at providing the larger framed sportsman with kit that actually
0:03:22 > 0:03:25fits them as opposed to making them look like a shrink-wrapped chicken.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30I've always struggled to find sports clothing to fit me,
0:03:30 > 0:03:34being a MAMIL, otherwise known as a "middle-aged man in Lycra",
0:03:34 > 0:03:37and I've never really been able to find anything that didn't
0:03:37 > 0:03:38make me look terrible.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40What is it called?
0:03:40 > 0:03:41BOTH: Fat Lad At The Back.
0:03:43 > 0:03:44Nice.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48Erm... Er, where did we get to? So, erm...
0:03:48 > 0:03:51We launched on the fourth of October last year
0:03:51 > 0:03:55and since then we've really had a fantastic ride.
0:03:55 > 0:03:57We've massed just short of 3,000 followers on Facebook.
0:03:57 > 0:04:01We've turned over £48,000 in that time.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04We've had a gross profit of about £24,000.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06- We knew that the brand was strong,
0:04:06 > 0:04:09but even we've been overwhelmed at how passionately people have
0:04:09 > 0:04:14adopted it and how inspirational it's been to people.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16We think we're in a great position at the moment
0:04:16 > 0:04:20because we've clearly found a gap in the market.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23We just need some help from, maybe some Dragons,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26to help us fill the gap in the market with FLAB.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28- FLAB being the acronym of Fat Lad At the Back.
0:04:33 > 0:04:38A pitch with a healthy dose of irony from Richard and Lynn Bye,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42who are seeking £80,000 in return for a 10% stake
0:04:42 > 0:04:46in their sportswear range for the plus-sized cyclist.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50But before the Dragons can interrogate the business,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52Duncan Bannatyne has a few thoughts
0:04:52 > 0:04:55about their brand to get off his chest.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01When you name your product Fat Lad At The Back,
0:05:01 > 0:05:03that's the only customer you're going to get.
0:05:03 > 0:05:04You're not going to get...
0:05:04 > 0:05:06It's not... That's not necessarily true.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09You don't have to be fat to be a fat lad at the back,
0:05:09 > 0:05:10do you know what I mean? It's more of a...
0:05:10 > 0:05:12No, I don't know what you mean.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14If it says, "Fat Lad At The Back", I don't know...
0:05:14 > 0:05:17If you're out cycling, there's always somebody that is at the back.
0:05:17 > 0:05:18Yeah, but why do you call him a fat lad?
0:05:18 > 0:05:20No, they're not always fat.
0:05:20 > 0:05:22ALL TALK OVER EACH OTHER
0:05:22 > 0:05:26What if it's me at the back, and I'm not a fat lad, I just happen
0:05:26 > 0:05:30to be the oldest person there, and I can't get up the hill any faster?
0:05:30 > 0:05:31So you're the old fat lad at the back.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34- Exactly. Thank you, Peter. - I'm not a fat lad.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36No, but you are, metaphorically speaking.
0:05:38 > 0:05:43Now, I completely understand, it's a turn of phrase, isn't it?
0:05:43 > 0:05:46It doesn't matter, it could be the skinniest person in that group.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48- You could say, "Oh, he's the fat lad at the back."- Yeah.
0:05:48 > 0:05:52But I do have a problem with the brand because,
0:05:52 > 0:05:55unfortunately, it is a little bit too closely
0:05:55 > 0:05:59descriptive of the person that you want to attract.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01You want to bring out, then, a female range.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04- Would you wear Fat Girl At The Back? - Lass.- That's my point.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06Fat Lass At The Back.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07- What did you say? - Fat Lass At The Back.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10Fat Lass At The Back? Are you serious? Is that really...?
0:06:10 > 0:06:13- And a children's range, Fat Kid At The Back?- No.
0:06:13 > 0:06:15I don't think you could do the kids, could you?
0:06:15 > 0:06:17Guys, I'm going to be really quick
0:06:17 > 0:06:20and they can interrupt as much as they like.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23My point is, I get all of the bits you're talking about,
0:06:23 > 0:06:25so don't think I misunderstand it,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28but unfortunately that isn't going to help you.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32I get it, but I still worry about it, so...
0:06:32 > 0:06:37Just before you declare yourself out, just to say one thing,
0:06:37 > 0:06:39and that's that at the moment the initial range to get the brand
0:06:39 > 0:06:44out there is emblazoned with Fat Lad At The Back,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47but we do have a plan to bring out a more subtle range for those
0:06:47 > 0:06:49people who don't want the Fat Lad At The Back.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53But, guys, I've also been in the fashion industry and it's hard,
0:06:53 > 0:06:56it's tough, and you need to get as much market as you can,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59not box yourself into a quite tight group of people
0:06:59 > 0:07:02who are going to get it, who think it's funny.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05I'm afraid I won't be investing, so I've got to say I'm out.
0:07:05 > 0:07:06Thank you.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13Fat chance then, of a fashion industry savvy Deborah Meaden
0:07:13 > 0:07:15seeing fit to offer Richard and Lynn a deal.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21Will keen cyclist Piers Linney show any more enthusiasm?
0:07:26 > 0:07:28Where do we start on this one?
0:07:28 > 0:07:31- I'm a MAMIL and I have been the FLAB.- Yes.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36- Fundamentally, it's a very competitive market.- Mm-hmm.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39Why are you different, apart from the sizing?
0:07:39 > 0:07:41- Yeah, well, the brand. - Can I answer?
0:07:41 > 0:07:43- Yeah. - So basically, I'm not a cyclist,
0:07:43 > 0:07:45so I've come at this from a different angle.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48I dress Richard in a normal day-to-day fashion because I'm
0:07:48 > 0:07:51really interested in fashion and styling and things like that,
0:07:51 > 0:07:53so we've changed the shape of the garment itself.
0:07:53 > 0:07:58We started with a 44-inch chest and we've made the garment look good
0:07:58 > 0:08:01on that size of person, then we've tailored that up,
0:08:01 > 0:08:02and we've tailored that down.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05So we've come at it from a completely different place
0:08:05 > 0:08:06to most cycle wear companies.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09You're presentation, for me, is so flawed.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12Most people don't want to think they're becoming middle-aged
0:08:12 > 0:08:17or that they're overweight, they don't want that pointed out to them.
0:08:17 > 0:08:21- OK.- I don't get the positive out of it.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25I think when all people go back to the gym or go cycling or do
0:08:25 > 0:08:28all of those things, they want to feel like they fit in.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30But how are they going to feel like that
0:08:30 > 0:08:32if you've got Fat Lad At The Back, do you know what I mean?
0:08:32 > 0:08:34I understand what you're saying.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37Sometimes it's easier for somebody to take the mickey out of themselves
0:08:37 > 0:08:40and go, "I know I'm going to be the fat lad at the back..."
0:08:40 > 0:08:42Possibly some, but not everybody.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45I'm looking at your models, they've got a pot belly,
0:08:45 > 0:08:48so therefore it just means that it's got to be bigger.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51I mean, if you're fatter, you buy bigger clothes.
0:08:51 > 0:08:52You do, but up to date,
0:08:52 > 0:08:55there's not been anything available for people that are...
0:08:55 > 0:08:58I don't believe that for one minute.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01I know lots of people that are overweight that do sport,
0:09:01 > 0:09:04their shirts are not up here, they're just bigger shirts.
0:09:04 > 0:09:10Top quality cycle wear tends to be based on the old-fashioned
0:09:10 > 0:09:15typical cyclist, which is a 36 to 38-inch chest,
0:09:15 > 0:09:19but the middle-aged man in Lycra has changed that.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23Kelly, may be, rightly, getting hung up on the brand.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26If you put the brand to one side for a moment,
0:09:26 > 0:09:31there are more and more middle aged men and women, actually,
0:09:31 > 0:09:35riding bikes that don't look good in very technical Lycra.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37So what happens when everybody else says,
0:09:37 > 0:09:40"Oh, look, they're selling lots of those tops for bigger guys?
0:09:40 > 0:09:43"We'll make ours slightly bigger and we'll change the shape slightly."
0:09:43 > 0:09:45Yeah, and they will.
0:09:45 > 0:09:46But then you're done.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49We were with the third largest cycle wear
0:09:49 > 0:09:54and online cycle company last week, and their comment was,
0:09:54 > 0:09:56"We're definitely going to stock you
0:09:56 > 0:09:58"because you're the best people to solve the problem."
0:09:58 > 0:10:00I think you could do better on the design.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02If you're going to do something
0:10:02 > 0:10:05which is really going to make a mark...
0:10:05 > 0:10:08We're doing the best we can and have up until now,
0:10:08 > 0:10:12in terms of design, but we are only six months old.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17Despite intense scrutiny,
0:10:17 > 0:10:21Richard and Lynn's belief in their brand is unwavering...
0:10:23 > 0:10:27..but will that be enough to convince a sceptical Peter Jones?
0:10:30 > 0:10:35I would be, definitely... Look at me, the fat lad at the back...
0:10:35 > 0:10:36but I'm not so sure I'd want to be
0:10:36 > 0:10:38the fat lad at the back when I walk in to the pub.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43I don't see it as a mainstream opportunity, a mainstream brand.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45That being said, I do think you'll sell some
0:10:45 > 0:10:48because I do think it is quirky
0:10:48 > 0:10:51and people like quirkiness, but I don't see it as an investment,
0:10:51 > 0:10:53and I'm going to say I'm out.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00The initial concept to this is great,
0:11:00 > 0:11:03that you're doing something like this.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06I just think the actual Fat Lad At The Back
0:11:06 > 0:11:09descriptive title or brand is wrong.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14So for that reason, I'm out.
0:11:17 > 0:11:20I can imagine you sat round a table one night and everyone's like,
0:11:20 > 0:11:22"Oh, I'm overweight,
0:11:22 > 0:11:27"I'd like to go off and cycle, but I can never get the clothes."
0:11:27 > 0:11:30You created this brand and it was funny at the time, but morally
0:11:30 > 0:11:34I don't like it because I know people struggle with their weight.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36I would say that what the brand has done for a lot of people
0:11:36 > 0:11:40and a lot of the feedback that we've got is that people wear it
0:11:40 > 0:11:43and they feel empowered by it, and it gives them almost permission...
0:11:43 > 0:11:46I wish you well with it and I hope it works for you,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48but I'm not going to invest in you,
0:11:48 > 0:11:50so I'm afraid that I'm out. But good luck with it.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58Four Dragons have now turned down a deal.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02As the only Dragon who's grasped their fat lad logic,
0:12:02 > 0:12:05all hopes of investment now lie with Piers Linney.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10There is a market, but the question is -
0:12:10 > 0:12:14how big is it and is your brand right for it? Because...
0:12:14 > 0:12:15I don't know.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20What you try to do by exercising is not be the fat lad at the back.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23You've got to be try and be the skinny mate at the front.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29I don't think you're going to create enough traction,
0:12:29 > 0:12:32enough people out there are going to buy this stuff, so I'm out.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40So Richard and Lynn leave the den empty handed,
0:12:40 > 0:12:42convincing the Dragons to give them
0:12:42 > 0:12:46a financial push having ultimately proved an uphill struggle.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52- They just didn't get it. - Well, you know...
0:12:55 > 0:12:57It's... Yeah.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01The brand is too word heavy.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04It'd be like a hat company, calling it Bald Headed Old Men.
0:13:06 > 0:13:08I am the original fat lad at the back.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10I've always been called the fat lad at the back.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15We've got now 1,100 fat lads out there riding in our stuff
0:13:15 > 0:13:19within six months and that is... I think that's pretty good.
0:13:34 > 0:13:38Next in the den is former sales and marketing consultant Tracy Baker.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44She's looking for investment in her business,
0:13:44 > 0:13:47distributing a revolutionary new peel-and-stick product,
0:13:47 > 0:13:50which is designed for the home and office.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02Hello, Dragons, my name's Tracy Baker.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06I'm here as the director of Nanotech Laboratories Ltd.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09I'm here to ask you for an investment of £60,000
0:14:09 > 0:14:12for an equity share of my business of 25%.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17About 12 months ago, I was in America and I came across what I thought
0:14:17 > 0:14:21was a really innovative and exciting new product range.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23That was called Um Brands, and it's these products
0:14:23 > 0:14:25that I can display here on this fridge.
0:14:26 > 0:14:32There are hooks, clips, notepads, photo frames, mirrors.
0:14:32 > 0:14:36With these products, they use a new technology called nano-suction -
0:14:36 > 0:14:38it's a type of nanotechnology.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41And if I can just show you, on the back...
0:14:44 > 0:14:46..of each of these products, there are millions
0:14:46 > 0:14:49and millions of tiny rubber suction cups
0:14:49 > 0:14:51that create a very powerful suction.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53The suction is so strong...
0:14:54 > 0:14:56..that the hooks, for example,..
0:14:56 > 0:15:01can carry 5kg of weight.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05- Watch your toes. - No, I trust it quite well. It's OK.
0:15:05 > 0:15:08I was so impressed with the technology when I saw them
0:15:08 > 0:15:10that I did some research into the company
0:15:10 > 0:15:14and I was quite amazed to find out that they were stocked across
0:15:14 > 0:15:15North America, but there was no sale
0:15:15 > 0:15:17or distribution to the rest of the world.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20So I contacted the company and I asked them
0:15:20 > 0:15:24for the exclusive distribution rights for the UK and Europe -
0:15:24 > 0:15:27I obtained that back in last summer.
0:15:27 > 0:15:32Since then I have had one large UK retailer, Wilkinson's,
0:15:32 > 0:15:36and they are already stocking five of the products in 370 stores.
0:15:38 > 0:15:41I'm here today because I want some, I guess,
0:15:41 > 0:15:44help in terms of reaching more retailers in the UK
0:15:44 > 0:15:48and Europe and also getting investment of £60,000 for immediate
0:15:48 > 0:15:53need of stock, point of sale display and an e-commerce website.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55Thank you, and I invite any questions.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00A pitch perfect presentation from
0:16:00 > 0:16:02this Buckinghamshire-based entrepreneur.
0:16:04 > 0:16:09Tracy is looking for £60,000 for 25% of her distribution company.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Piers Linney is first to scrutinise the miracle material.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21I suppose the natural reaction with these things
0:16:21 > 0:16:24is to see if you can see them, so I guess you can't.
0:16:24 > 0:16:27Nanotechnology, you probably know all about nanotechnology, but it's
0:16:27 > 0:16:32so small... I think it's a hundred 1,000th the width of a human hair,
0:16:32 > 0:16:35or a billionth of a metre, it's just so small.
0:16:36 > 0:16:39When I've been in trade fairs, I've had people say to me,
0:16:39 > 0:16:42"This would be amazing in boats and caravans,
0:16:42 > 0:16:45"this would be perfect for students
0:16:45 > 0:16:47"who cant use hooks or drill holes into their walls."
0:16:47 > 0:16:51They're just blown away because there's no real competition
0:16:51 > 0:16:53out there for anything like this.
0:16:54 > 0:16:57Tell me about the Wilkinson order, then.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Well, we've had three orders up to date.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03The first order was for about 10,000 units, just over.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05What's that in monetary terms?
0:17:05 > 0:17:09In terms of sales, for us as a company,
0:17:09 > 0:17:12just over £18,000.
0:17:14 > 0:17:15And the second order?
0:17:15 > 0:17:19The second order was a smaller order for a two-week buffer stock,
0:17:19 > 0:17:22and that was only for just under 4,000 units.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25And we've just had a third order, last week,
0:17:25 > 0:17:27for a following 20,000 units.
0:17:27 > 0:17:31We're looking at a gross profit this year of £70,000.
0:17:34 > 0:17:35Hmm.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40Applying her sales skills to the maximum,
0:17:40 > 0:17:42Tracy's proving unflappable.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45But are things about to get sticky over the issue of her
0:17:45 > 0:17:48contractual deal with the American supplier?
0:17:52 > 0:17:54How would you properly and legally describe
0:17:54 > 0:17:56your relationship with this company?
0:17:56 > 0:17:59A licence agreement, a distribution agreement,
0:17:59 > 0:18:01what is the piece of paper that says,
0:18:01 > 0:18:03"This is how we're going to trade together"?
0:18:03 > 0:18:06- A distribution agreement. - It's a distribution agreement?- Yes.
0:18:06 > 0:18:10- Did you pay for the exclusive distribution rights?- No.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12So you just got a contract signed.
0:18:12 > 0:18:16Is there a minimum spend per year or anything for you to keep that?
0:18:16 > 0:18:20No, not at all. The initial contract was for a six-month period,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24which was to be continued with a termination period of three months.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26We discussed a renewal of that contract very recently
0:18:26 > 0:18:28and it was agreed that the exclusivity element
0:18:28 > 0:18:31of the contract would be continued as long as I'm able
0:18:31 > 0:18:35to secure more retailers and larger retailers across the UK and Europe.
0:18:35 > 0:18:39- Have you got the contract with you? - I do have it today, yes.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41- Can you show it to me?- Of course, yeah.
0:18:48 > 0:18:49Thank you.
0:18:52 > 0:18:57- You're basically a sales agent. - I basically am a distributor, yes.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59HE SIGHS
0:18:59 > 0:19:03So what makes you think that the business
0:19:03 > 0:19:06is worth a couple of £100,000?
0:19:06 > 0:19:09Because, first of all, it's already been successful in the US.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12I've got the exclusive distribution rights,
0:19:12 > 0:19:13so there's nobody else distributing.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15I'm sorry, I thought you said you did have,
0:19:15 > 0:19:18but you kind of haven't now because your contract is out.
0:19:18 > 0:19:21It's got a termination period of three months.
0:19:21 > 0:19:25So I could invest £60,000, we could try and get it in the retailers,
0:19:25 > 0:19:26it doesn't take off...
0:19:27 > 0:19:29I've just wasted my money.
0:19:29 > 0:19:31Well, I do have written confirmation form the company
0:19:31 > 0:19:35that so long as I do maintain even just one large retailer,
0:19:35 > 0:19:37then they will keep renewing the exclusivity.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40But you don't need me to get that, you're already in Wilkinson's.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43You're in 370 outlets - that's a lot.
0:19:43 > 0:19:44From last week, though.
0:19:44 > 0:19:47It's just been, erm, started stocking from last week.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49And obviously, from my perspective,
0:19:49 > 0:19:53I see this growing exponentially once it's out there in the market.
0:19:53 > 0:19:57Lots of people will know all about it and they might even start calling me.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59But it's an opportunity, I thought,
0:19:59 > 0:20:02to come on here and see if you'd like to be involved.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05The best thing, for you to have been able to walk in here
0:20:05 > 0:20:06and get investment, would be to say,
0:20:06 > 0:20:09"I've got a contract, I've got it for this period of time."
0:20:09 > 0:20:12Which you have kind of said, but it's three months' notice,
0:20:12 > 0:20:15it's not very secure, makes you almost impossible to
0:20:15 > 0:20:19invest in today because you haven't brought somebody from that
0:20:19 > 0:20:22company here to represent you that can commit.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24So if I commit £60,000,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27I've no idea whether I'm going to not just see the money,
0:20:27 > 0:20:30but whether we're even going to have a contract in three months.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33So for an investor, that is massive, massive risk.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35I can't invest in something like that,
0:20:35 > 0:20:37so I'm going to tell you, Tracy, I'm out.
0:20:41 > 0:20:46A disastrous turn of events, as Peter Jones pulls no punches over
0:20:46 > 0:20:47the agreement that Tracy's brokered.
0:20:48 > 0:20:52And Deborah Meaden's discovered even more devil in the detail.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57There's not good news in the contract
0:20:57 > 0:20:59and it goes back to what Peter says.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02Unfortunately...
0:21:03 > 0:21:06..this is really not nice.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09"I, the party, may terminate this agreement following the
0:21:09 > 0:21:12"six-month trial period", which you've already done.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17"Or without cause."
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Without cause, for any reason whatsoever,
0:21:19 > 0:21:21"Don't want to do this any more,
0:21:21 > 0:21:24"found somebody else who can sell it more, upon 90 days written notice."
0:21:25 > 0:21:28Which means that, at any point...
0:21:28 > 0:21:31there's nothing in the way this agreement is drawn up
0:21:31 > 0:21:34that gives you any safety to say,
0:21:34 > 0:21:36"Well, yeah, but hold on a minute.
0:21:36 > 0:21:40"I bring on £500,000 worth of business, I get it. "
0:21:40 > 0:21:44So the structure of the agreement is very, very unhelpful.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46It's almost worse than not having an agreement.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54With the den rattled by the contract's fine print,
0:21:54 > 0:21:58will more Dragons follow in Peter Jones' footsteps,
0:21:58 > 0:22:02or will Tracy's encouraging sales keep them on side?
0:22:05 > 0:22:07Don't you wish you'd invented this?
0:22:07 > 0:22:09Of course, and do you know what, Kelly?
0:22:09 > 0:22:11I intend to look for other products that we can also distribute.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13But, for me, it's not just about distribution -
0:22:13 > 0:22:15it's about bringing new products as well.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17For me, as a Dragon, coming in,
0:22:17 > 0:22:19obviously I look for a good investment.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21But coming from a design background,
0:22:21 > 0:22:25I was thinking of different products cos it's an incredible substance.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28But to invest in something that doesn't, for me, have a future,
0:22:28 > 0:22:31I can't see how we could take it anywhere else,
0:22:31 > 0:22:35other than investing in you as a distributor.
0:22:35 > 0:22:36It's not very exciting.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41Essentially, what I would be doing is just helping you find people
0:22:41 > 0:22:43who are going to buy the product,
0:22:43 > 0:22:45and that's not really why I'm in the den.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48I want something that's got some creativity in it
0:22:48 > 0:22:50as well as the business side.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52So, for that reason, I'm not investing,
0:22:52 > 0:22:54but I wish you well with it. So I'm out.
0:22:55 > 0:23:00Tracy, if I could give you one piece of advice, it is, "Sort this out."
0:23:03 > 0:23:05But, because of that, really,
0:23:05 > 0:23:09- it's not something I can invest in, so I'm afraid I'm out.- OK.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16Three Dragons have now declared themselves out.
0:23:16 > 0:23:21Tracy's hopes of investment rest with Deborah Meaden
0:23:21 > 0:23:22or Duncan Bannatyne.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26- Tracy... - Yes, Duncan.
0:23:27 > 0:23:30How confident are that, with a Dragon on board,
0:23:30 > 0:23:31you could get a new contract?
0:23:33 > 0:23:36Categorically, 100% confident.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39I deal only with the marketing director.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42She recognises the fact that I've had a huge amount of passion
0:23:42 > 0:23:44to do this in the first place.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48I've invested about £65,000 of my own money into
0:23:48 > 0:23:50doing this in the last six months.
0:23:50 > 0:23:5165,000?
0:23:51 > 0:23:54I have, yep. And I think she recognises that.
0:23:55 > 0:23:57And I really, truly believe we can do that.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05- OK. Well, I'm going to make you an offer then.- OK.
0:24:08 > 0:24:13I'm going to offer you the full amount, £60,000, for...
0:24:16 > 0:24:19For 35% of the company.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21OK, thank you.
0:24:29 > 0:24:35I like the products and have had a great deal of success with
0:24:35 > 0:24:37a stick-on, office-style product.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41And, actually, I see some synergies between the two businesses
0:24:41 > 0:24:45and, quite obviously, some of the customers are going to be the same
0:24:45 > 0:24:47and we're in the big shed.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50So, what I can see there is some expertise within
0:24:50 > 0:24:55that organisation, which has now grown exponentially.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57I can see them being a customer of this.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01I can see them being able to make introductions.
0:25:01 > 0:25:03The biggest conundrum is that agreement.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10However, the other organisation I'm talking about also operates
0:25:10 > 0:25:12under a licence agreement,
0:25:12 > 0:25:14so we have an absolute model of something,
0:25:14 > 0:25:15and we have to sort that out too.
0:25:15 > 0:25:18I am going to make you an offer, but it is going to have that caveat.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21The very first thing you do before I hand any money over
0:25:21 > 0:25:24- is to get that.- Yeah.
0:25:24 > 0:25:26So I'm going to make you an offer
0:25:26 > 0:25:28and I'm going to offer you all of the money,
0:25:28 > 0:25:30but I want 40% of the business.
0:25:31 > 0:25:32OK, thank you.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40Duncan, is there something you can tell me,
0:25:40 > 0:25:43a little bit more, so I can compare the two of you?
0:25:45 > 0:25:48Tracy, I've been in business a long time. I know how these things work.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50Obviously, the first thing I'm going to do
0:25:50 > 0:25:52is get the contract renegotiated,
0:25:52 > 0:25:55and we're going to market the product, it's a simple as that.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57There's nothing else to it.
0:26:00 > 0:26:03So, a remarkable U-turn in the den.
0:26:03 > 0:26:07The entrepreneur now has two offers on the table,
0:26:07 > 0:26:12but can Deborah Meaden turn from arch prosecutor to a deal poacher?
0:26:18 > 0:26:20It's very difficult to decide.
0:26:20 > 0:26:21Is it?
0:26:24 > 0:26:28I think in my heart of hearts, my initial reaction is that,
0:26:28 > 0:26:31Duncan, you were behind me just from a gut feeling.
0:26:31 > 0:26:32And I guess, on that side of things,
0:26:32 > 0:26:35despite Deborah, you'd be, I guess, amazing to work with,
0:26:35 > 0:26:38and I understand you've got a lot of connections,
0:26:38 > 0:26:41- I think I'll go with Duncan. - Thank you very much.
0:26:41 > 0:26:43DRAGONS APPLAUD
0:26:43 > 0:26:44Thank you very much indeed.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47After an early mauling by Peter Jones,
0:26:47 > 0:26:51Tracy leaves the den bruised but smiling
0:26:51 > 0:26:54at the £60,000 that eventually came her way.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58Deborah, you will just not stop trying to pinch deals, eh?
0:26:58 > 0:27:01- Well, it would've been a very good synergy.- Every deal that comes up...
0:27:01 > 0:27:04To be fair, I offered 5% more than you. I'm hardly stealing a deal.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08I was really 50-50. I think Deborah was really convincing.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11She obviously had a lot of contacts in the right areas,
0:27:11 > 0:27:15and she seemed very honest and clear about what she could and couldn't do.
0:27:15 > 0:27:20Duncan offered me first, and he took the leap of faith,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23and I felt that he deserved to have the deal.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31- It doesn't work. - It's your problem.
0:27:31 > 0:27:32You're not selling them.
0:27:32 > 0:27:34- Why are you doing this?' - I'm out.'
0:27:34 > 0:27:38Also hoping for investment were inventors Jordan Schlipf
0:27:38 > 0:27:42and Andrew Tan, who came into the den looking for £50,000
0:27:42 > 0:27:45for a 10% stake in their business.
0:27:48 > 0:27:52Meet the Morella, a novel remedy for a 21st century problem.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56Yes, it's a drinks holder for an umbrella.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59So, why? Well, it's because of this -
0:27:59 > 0:28:01the proliferation of the smartphone.
0:28:01 > 0:28:03Today, we are addicted to our phones.
0:28:03 > 0:28:06We're constantly taking photos, videos,
0:28:06 > 0:28:11updating our social media, messaging, e-mailing and taking phone calls.
0:28:11 > 0:28:13The really interesting and unique feature
0:28:13 > 0:28:15of Morella's patented design is that,
0:28:15 > 0:28:20when it does stop raining, you can be left attached to the umbrella,
0:28:20 > 0:28:22turning it into a drinks holder and stand.
0:28:24 > 0:28:26From Glastonbury to Glyndebourne,
0:28:26 > 0:28:32the men behind Morella saw no end of potential sales opportunities,
0:28:32 > 0:28:35but Peter Jones was unconvinced.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37Do you honestly think it's a viable product?
0:28:37 > 0:28:40The idea, I know it can be a bit of a Marmite thing,
0:28:40 > 0:28:42but we've had a number of experiences now,
0:28:42 > 0:28:44when we go out, we've taken it down to Kempton races,
0:28:44 > 0:28:49and generally, it sparks people's imagination if nothing else.
0:28:49 > 0:28:50You mentioned about at the races.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53I mean, to be fair, you'd look a bit of a plonker, wouldn't you?
0:28:53 > 0:28:57I agree, there is something about it that's a little bit
0:28:57 > 0:29:00outside of the norm, but the genuine reaction that we've always
0:29:00 > 0:29:03had from people has been one of affection towards it.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06The look of their product may divide opinion,
0:29:06 > 0:29:09but Deborah Meaden was concerned less with design
0:29:09 > 0:29:12and more by simple mathematics.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14The problem is you have got to sell a lot to make any
0:29:14 > 0:29:16kind of return on an investment.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18We had a conversation with one of the more prominent
0:29:18 > 0:29:21coffee chains in the world.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24So, they have 20,000 stores worldwide.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27You can't just say there's that many coffee shops in the world.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30Have they said to you, "We would buy half a million of them"?
0:29:30 > 0:29:33You get there and it's that sort of,
0:29:33 > 0:29:35"OK, so we're going to be the first out of the gates,
0:29:35 > 0:29:37"so let's try 100, 300, 400 units,
0:29:37 > 0:29:39"see how it goes, we'll build from there."
0:29:41 > 0:29:46Morella's inventors were predicting steady but unspectacular growth.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48No surprise then, that Piers Linney felt
0:29:48 > 0:29:51they'd overvalued their business.
0:29:51 > 0:29:55You've got an idea, prototype,
0:29:55 > 0:29:57that's it, that's as far as you've got, and you want £50,000 for 10%.
0:29:59 > 0:30:01If you'd come in here and asked for less money,
0:30:01 > 0:30:03I might have just done it as a whim,
0:30:03 > 0:30:05but it's not something that excites me particularly
0:30:05 > 0:30:08and therefore it's not something that I want to invest in.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14Sadly, for Jordan and Andrew, all of the Dragons agreed -
0:30:14 > 0:30:18better to save for a rainy day than splash out on a business
0:30:18 > 0:30:19that simply didn't hold water.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24All I can say is, it's completely an utterly ridiculous
0:30:24 > 0:30:27- and ludicrous, and I'm out. - OK.
0:30:29 > 0:30:31Thank you. Good luck with it.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33It is raining.
0:30:33 > 0:30:37It is. We thought it was a sign. LAUGHTER
0:30:38 > 0:30:40Don't worry about it.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44- I want one, though.- I know you do.
0:30:47 > 0:30:49- So far tonight... - What do I let you talk me into?
0:30:50 > 0:30:55..two entrepreneurs were berated for their brand name.
0:30:55 > 0:30:56- We thought they'd love it.
0:30:56 > 0:30:58- We expected them to be fighting amongst themselves.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00And, in fact, they were fighting
0:31:00 > 0:31:02amongst themselves, for different reasons.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05- Would you wear Fat Girl At The Back? - That's my point.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09And one business got the Dragons' seal of approval.
0:31:09 > 0:31:11Thank you very much indeed. Thank you.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16Will any of these cash hungry hopefuls also have the
0:31:16 > 0:31:18winning formula for investment?
0:31:18 > 0:31:22You're going to be knocking over vases, hitting grandma on the head.
0:31:22 > 0:31:24The thing is, I'm crazy about marshmallows,
0:31:24 > 0:31:27but...these taste a bit stale.
0:31:38 > 0:31:42Now, the toy business is a bit like a lottery.
0:31:42 > 0:31:43If you can create a craze,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46well, then you've got yourself a winning ticket.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48But most, of course, never get very far.
0:31:48 > 0:31:52Our next entrepreneurs are hoping their toy can hit the jackpot.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31Hi, Dragons. My name's David, and this is Phil...
0:32:31 > 0:32:33- Hi.
0:32:33 > 0:32:37- ..and we're here to pitch for a £60,000 investment
0:32:37 > 0:32:41in return for a 25% stake in our business, Ukick Ltd.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46Ukick's a fun new social and healthy sporting craze.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49It fuses elements of badminton, and street football,
0:32:49 > 0:32:53and the aim of the game is to kick the Ukick in the air, using your feet
0:32:53 > 0:32:57or any other part of your body, and prevent it from touching the ground.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59- Ukick consists of four brightly coloured feathers
0:32:59 > 0:33:02inserted into a brightly coloured rubber base.
0:33:04 > 0:33:07As David is demonstrating, you can take the feathers out of the base,
0:33:07 > 0:33:09so kids can trade feathers with each other
0:33:09 > 0:33:11to create their own unique designs.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16You can add or remove the weights to change the way that the Ukick
0:33:16 > 0:33:20flies through the air, giving you more reaction time.
0:33:20 > 0:33:25- From the onset, our mission has been to focus on three major things.
0:33:25 > 0:33:30Number one is getting kids, and big kids, active.
0:33:30 > 0:33:33The second thing is getting people and bringing them
0:33:33 > 0:33:35together in a social environment.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37And the third main thing is, basically,
0:33:37 > 0:33:39adding a bit more fun into the world.
0:33:40 > 0:33:44- To date, we've sold around 45,000 Ukicks.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46We have a distributor who's ready to go,
0:33:46 > 0:33:48not just nationally, but also internationally.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51All that's missing from the equation is a Dragon to join us on board,
0:33:51 > 0:33:54and come and turn this into the craze that we've always wanted it to be.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57- We welcome you to come up and play with us,
0:33:57 > 0:34:00if you fancy, and then we can take any questions that you like.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03- Can I have a go?- Of course you can. - I've got heels on.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06- Anyone else? Duncan, you look tempted.- I'll have a go, yeah.
0:34:06 > 0:34:10It's all about timing, really, more than power.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12That's it. That's it.
0:34:12 > 0:34:13Two hits.
0:34:15 > 0:34:19An upbeat pitch from David Robinson and Phil Law, who are seeking
0:34:19 > 0:34:24£60,000 in return for a 25% stake in their toy business.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29Having honed his keepy-uppy skills,
0:34:29 > 0:34:32Duncan Bannatyne kicks off the interrogation.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37That was fun.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41What's the retail price on it?
0:34:41 > 0:34:44Recommended retail price is £7.99.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47- Are those the displays of what you actually sell?- Yeah.
0:34:47 > 0:34:49- Can you pass them round? - Yeah, of course.
0:34:49 > 0:34:53David will pass around those, they are a little bit scratched.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56Have you got one there? I'll pass it to Kelly in a second.
0:34:57 > 0:34:59So what does it cost you to produce them?
0:34:59 > 0:35:03So, to manufacture the whole thing, it's 70p.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07- You can get these delivered for 70 pence?- Yeah.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10There's a container on the way over now,
0:35:10 > 0:35:13which has got around about 18,000 Ukicks on it.
0:35:13 > 0:35:15Who's paying for this?
0:35:15 > 0:35:17The order's been paid for, 50% deposit,
0:35:17 > 0:35:19by the distributor, he has committed.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22If you've got someone else paying for your product...
0:35:22 > 0:35:25selling it on your behalf, distributing it,
0:35:25 > 0:35:27why do you need any money?
0:35:27 > 0:35:30To launch this product successfully, we need to turn this into a craze,
0:35:30 > 0:35:33not just trickle forwards and grow steadily.
0:35:33 > 0:35:35It really needs to hit the market and explode.
0:35:37 > 0:35:39Why is it going to be a craze?
0:35:39 > 0:35:40We've taken it to a lot of schools.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43We really have put in a lot of groundwork here.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45The kids go bananas over it.
0:35:45 > 0:35:47For whatever reason, they just seem to love it.
0:35:47 > 0:35:50We were doing a session and they literally attacked me
0:35:50 > 0:35:52because I had a Ukick. They were running after me.
0:35:52 > 0:35:55They wanted a different coloured feather, for example.
0:35:55 > 0:35:57How did you get to this point? How do you know each other?
0:35:57 > 0:36:00Well, I was made redundant twice in the last recession.
0:36:00 > 0:36:05It was a really tough time, which is why I started Ukick up.
0:36:05 > 0:36:09It's been such a roller coaster ride, I can't even tell you.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13And I've been living off literally below minimum wage for so long,
0:36:13 > 0:36:18and I don't want to slip up now because this is about to take off.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20David, you just look worn out.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23I don't know if you were up all night making these or not, but...
0:36:23 > 0:36:25You just look like you've had a...
0:36:25 > 0:36:26OK, so I...
0:36:26 > 0:36:29So, I went on a heavy stag do at the weekend.
0:36:29 > 0:36:31THEY LAUGH
0:36:31 > 0:36:34I thought you were going to say, "It's the business."
0:36:34 > 0:36:39Oh, it is. Because I was dealing with China as well, I just work 24-7.
0:36:39 > 0:36:42Isn't this a case of, get it out there, create a craze,
0:36:42 > 0:36:44and then get out of Dodge?
0:36:44 > 0:36:47That's exactly why we need to hit it so hard.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49But what are you going to move on to?
0:36:49 > 0:36:51We're going to have a Ukick-o-meter,
0:36:51 > 0:36:54- which we could show you a prototype of.- What was that?
0:36:54 > 0:36:57- A Ukick-o-meter. Do you want to...? - These are only mock-ups.
0:36:57 > 0:37:00- You have to maybe use your imagination.
0:37:00 > 0:37:04The idea would be, and it obviously wouldn't look exactly like this,
0:37:04 > 0:37:07but as you kick, it would count how many you've done.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10We've also got a really nice idea, this is pulse technology.
0:37:10 > 0:37:12So when you kick it, it will pulse a colour.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15These are just random designs so, again,
0:37:15 > 0:37:17we could introduce different colours there.
0:37:17 > 0:37:18I think it's got legs, this thing.
0:37:22 > 0:37:26Dave and Phil may have convinced Kelly Hoppen that there
0:37:26 > 0:37:30product is no one-hit wonder, but Duncan Bannatyne is concerned
0:37:30 > 0:37:33the men behind Ukick are trying to run before they can walk.
0:37:35 > 0:37:36I'm not sure you want to be...
0:37:38 > 0:37:42..creating accessories until you have proven the fact that this sells.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47So what's your projections, going forward, then?
0:37:47 > 0:37:53We are looking to do, globally, from the end of June when they land
0:37:53 > 0:37:57to the next June, roughly 850,000 units.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59One unit, what are you going to make?
0:37:59 > 0:38:04One unit, up to 100,000, about 19p, 18p.
0:38:04 > 0:38:08I think that you'll make a little bit of money, but I think that
0:38:08 > 0:38:12you'll be surprised at how little that you'll ultimately sell.
0:38:12 > 0:38:14The big issue with this is the fact that this is a game that
0:38:14 > 0:38:18I think every parent will turn round and say, "Put that thing outside."
0:38:18 > 0:38:20You're going to be knocking over vases,
0:38:20 > 0:38:22you're going to be hitting grandma on the head.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24But if you reduce the weights,
0:38:24 > 0:38:28then obviously it's not going to cause as much damage inside.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31It's just not something that I'm going to get behind, guys.
0:38:31 > 0:38:32So I'm going to wish you well on your way.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:38:35 > 0:38:38Disappointment for the young entrepreneurs,
0:38:38 > 0:38:41as Peter Jones turns his back on the deal.
0:38:42 > 0:38:47Will Deborah Meaden see the business potential in this playground craze?
0:38:47 > 0:38:49Did you do this design?
0:38:49 > 0:38:51- Yeah, this is all... - And the photography?
0:38:51 > 0:38:54- The photographer's a friend of mine. - I think they look really good.
0:38:54 > 0:38:57- It really is strong. - Thanks a lot.
0:38:57 > 0:38:59Who designed this?
0:39:01 > 0:39:04- See, that doesn't look like that. - No, we agree.
0:39:04 > 0:39:08That is actually a very recent development on the brand.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10At the time we did that, we didn't have any photographs at all,
0:39:10 > 0:39:14apart ones on iPhones, which just isn't suitable for packaging.
0:39:14 > 0:39:18You're good guys, you've certainly done a great job on producing it,
0:39:18 > 0:39:20but when I sit here, I have to see a path.
0:39:20 > 0:39:23I have to think, "Right, we can do that with it."
0:39:23 > 0:39:26I've been sitting quietly, looking for it, I just have no empathy
0:39:26 > 0:39:30- and sometimes that's my reason to not want to invest.- Sure.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32So I'm really sorry, I won't be investing.
0:39:32 > 0:39:33- Thanks very much.- I'm out.
0:39:37 > 0:39:41Praise for Dave and Phil, but no passion to invest.
0:39:41 > 0:39:44Now, Duncan Bannatyne, who initially said
0:39:44 > 0:39:48he enjoyed playing with the product, is ready to have his say.
0:39:50 > 0:39:52Those sort of margins,
0:39:52 > 0:39:55you'd have to sell an awful, awful lot to recoup,
0:39:55 > 0:39:57first of all my £60,000,
0:39:57 > 0:39:59and then make a profit.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01So, I wish you the best of luck with it,
0:40:01 > 0:40:04but I'm not going to invest, so I'm out.
0:40:08 > 0:40:10When you came in, I just thought...
0:40:10 > 0:40:13it's a craze, it'll come and go very quickly.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16And then you sort of talked through the vision,
0:40:16 > 0:40:17and I kind of thought, "Maybe not."
0:40:17 > 0:40:19But now I've gone back to, "Yes, it is".
0:40:21 > 0:40:25It's not a sustainable business, so I can't invest in it, unfortunately.
0:40:25 > 0:40:26I'm out.
0:40:29 > 0:40:32Four Dragons out in rapid succession.
0:40:33 > 0:40:38Dave and Phil's hopes of securing the £60,000 they were seeking
0:40:38 > 0:40:41now rest solely with Kelly Hoppen.
0:40:45 > 0:40:46Guys, you're good,
0:40:46 > 0:40:50you're really good, and I think you've done a fantastic job here.
0:40:56 > 0:41:03But it's very hard to get into this market,
0:41:03 > 0:41:07and also, this is something that can be copied so easily.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10I'm going to wish you well with it, I truly am,
0:41:10 > 0:41:12but I'm afraid I'm not going to invest and I'm out.
0:41:12 > 0:41:15- Thank you.- Good luck. - Thanks for your time. Cheers.
0:41:15 > 0:41:16- Have a good day.- Good luck.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24Kelly Hoppen declines to make an offer,
0:41:24 > 0:41:26and the entrepreneurs who've been living on minimum wage
0:41:26 > 0:41:29while trying to establish their business leave
0:41:29 > 0:41:32with their dreams of investment shattered.
0:41:34 > 0:41:36- I thought we had her. - I did as well.
0:41:36 > 0:41:37- Oh, we needed that.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42- I thought we were going to do it. - Oh, well. Well done, mate.
0:41:55 > 0:41:59Many entrepreneurs come into the den with business ideas
0:41:59 > 0:42:03inspired by their own personal experiences.
0:42:03 > 0:42:05I was a healthcare assistant for seven years.
0:42:05 > 0:42:08I contracted a bacterial infection into my right hand.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10I didn't like putting the stockings on,
0:42:10 > 0:42:12so that's why I developed Neo-Slip.
0:42:12 > 0:42:16Put your foot on to the door, and you walk though.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19After many months of research, we designed the Dignity Giving Suit.
0:42:22 > 0:42:26Denise Anstey's disability had led her to create a new
0:42:26 > 0:42:28twist on the walking stick.
0:42:28 > 0:42:34She was seeking £45,000 in return for a 35% stake in her business.
0:42:37 > 0:42:42In 1998, I had a car accident and I was disabled for 12 years.
0:42:42 > 0:42:43And during that time,
0:42:43 > 0:42:47I designed and invented the Slik Stik walking stick.
0:42:47 > 0:42:50It has a split-angled LED light system.
0:42:50 > 0:42:54It also has red LEDs for crossing the road in the dark.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56ALARM SOUNDS
0:42:56 > 0:42:57A panic alarm button.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59It's height adjustable and foldable,
0:42:59 > 0:43:02and it's very, very lightweight.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05Denise's stick boasted a broad range of features,
0:43:05 > 0:43:08but Duncan Bannatyne wanted to establish
0:43:08 > 0:43:11the size of her potential market.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14How many people in the UK use walking sticks?
0:43:14 > 0:43:17- How many?- Yeah.- Probably a million, two million people.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20I don't think it's anywhere near that, actually.
0:43:20 > 0:43:2210 million people are over 65 years.
0:43:22 > 0:43:26Yeah, I'm over 65 and I don't use a walking stick.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28- You don't look it, Duncan. - Thank you, darling.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32It's like a funfair on a stick, isn't it?
0:43:32 > 0:43:33Or it's Pimp My Stick.
0:43:33 > 0:43:36Pimp My Stick, well... It's very functional.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39I think when you're disabled, you look at it in a different way.
0:43:39 > 0:43:41We showed people and said, "What do you think?"
0:43:41 > 0:43:42And they just absolutely loved it.
0:43:42 > 0:43:46Positive feedback for Denise from potential buyers,
0:43:46 > 0:43:50even if a doubtful Deborah Meaden was yet to see the light.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53Just go and stand on the shadow, back there, behind the table.
0:43:53 > 0:43:57That light doesn't hit the floor until way ahead of your feet.
0:43:57 > 0:43:59Yeah, but by the time I get there, I'm always looking a step ahead.
0:43:59 > 0:44:02- It's moved.- You look ahead when you walk, you don't look down.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05- Do you see what I mean? - I'm sorry, but actually,
0:44:05 > 0:44:07a very close member of my family walks with sticks
0:44:07 > 0:44:10and the most important thing to them is this area here,
0:44:10 > 0:44:12so that they don't trip.
0:44:12 > 0:44:14It's to see a trip hazard before you get to it,
0:44:14 > 0:44:16so by the time you've got there, you know what's ahead of you.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21Denise was confident that her walking stick had
0:44:21 > 0:44:23all the right tools for the job,
0:44:23 > 0:44:26but Piers Linney was curious to discover what other ideas
0:44:26 > 0:44:28she had for her product.
0:44:29 > 0:44:31You had an experience, which was difficult.
0:44:31 > 0:44:33Yes, I'm trying to move forward.
0:44:33 > 0:44:35All these things you wanted and you needed,
0:44:35 > 0:44:38- and you've sort of put them all in a walking stick.- Mm-hmm.
0:44:38 > 0:44:40You could put an umbrella in there,
0:44:40 > 0:44:42you could put a credit card holder,
0:44:42 > 0:44:44toaster... You could just keep going.
0:44:44 > 0:44:46Well, no. There is obviously a limit.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49We have obviously researched this really carefully,
0:44:49 > 0:44:52so we know what people are after, what they like, so we've adapted it.
0:44:52 > 0:44:56I think the only thing that you've said that I agree with is the alarm.
0:44:56 > 0:44:57That's to alert for help.
0:44:57 > 0:44:59Sometimes, something happens.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01It's happened to me when I was mugged.
0:45:01 > 0:45:03I thought I was screaming, but I actually wasn't,
0:45:03 > 0:45:05so the alarm, I think, is brilliant.
0:45:08 > 0:45:11Despite praise for it's in-built personal alarm...
0:45:12 > 0:45:16..neither Kelly Hoppen nor any of her fellow Dragons
0:45:16 > 0:45:20felt sufficiently moved by Denise's souped-up stick to invest.
0:45:21 > 0:45:24Truly amazing woman, well done for everything that you've done,
0:45:24 > 0:45:26but I'm afraid I'm out.
0:45:26 > 0:45:28- Thank you.- Good luck.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47The food and drink keep flowing in the den,
0:45:47 > 0:45:50as many entrepreneurs seem to think it's a sector
0:45:50 > 0:45:52ripe for profit and innovation.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54That's certainly the case with our next entrepreneur,
0:45:54 > 0:45:57who has a new take on the traditional marshmallow.
0:46:20 > 0:46:23Hi, I'm Harriet, and I'm the founder of Mallow and Marsh,
0:46:23 > 0:46:28and I'm looking for £65,000 in return for 10%.
0:46:28 > 0:46:31Mallow and Marsh is a gourmet marshmallow company.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34We make handmade, 100% natural marshmallows
0:46:34 > 0:46:37with no additives and no preservatives.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39These are designed for the marshmallow lover
0:46:39 > 0:46:42as a grab-and-go-style impulse purchase.
0:46:42 > 0:46:48We have five flavours now. We've got roasted coconut, raspberry,
0:46:48 > 0:46:52vanilla, peppermint and dark chocolate and cappuccino.
0:46:53 > 0:46:57Last week, we actually launched into 40 local stores of a
0:46:57 > 0:47:00national supermarket as part of a 12-month contract
0:47:00 > 0:47:02that we're looking to roll out.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06Would you like to try some? LAUGHTER
0:47:06 > 0:47:07Love to try some.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14A short-but-sweet pitch from Harriet Pleydell-Bouverie...
0:47:14 > 0:47:16Roasted coconut, cappuccino.
0:47:16 > 0:47:22..who's seeking £65,000 in return for a 10% share of her business.
0:47:23 > 0:47:30But will Harriet's product be to the taste of design guru Kelly Hoppen?
0:47:30 > 0:47:32The thing is, I'm crazy about marshmallows,
0:47:32 > 0:47:33and I have a big jar in my kitchen,
0:47:33 > 0:47:36and I go and buy the packets of the white and the pink,
0:47:36 > 0:47:38and I take the pink out, because I only like the white.
0:47:38 > 0:47:40It's rather sad, I know.
0:47:40 > 0:47:43But...these taste a bit stale.
0:47:47 > 0:47:52But I don't know if it's because a normal marshmallow is so soft...
0:47:52 > 0:47:55These are much closer to the nougat side of things.
0:47:55 > 0:47:57It is a marshmallow in terms of the recipe, and the design,
0:47:57 > 0:47:59but it is very different.
0:47:59 > 0:48:04Well, this is funny because I, literally, not a week ago,
0:48:04 > 0:48:07was having a conversation about marshmallow. But, you know,
0:48:07 > 0:48:10there always becomes the latest thing that everybody gets into.
0:48:10 > 0:48:15I love them, but I've started to see them about.
0:48:15 > 0:48:16But why marshmallows?
0:48:16 > 0:48:19I've lived and breathed marshmallows for a very long time.
0:48:19 > 0:48:23- It really was kind of a right time, right place moment.- Good timing.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27I think maybe my research was seeing that it was growing probably helped.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30I go anywhere and I give them out. I've always got marshmallows on me,
0:48:30 > 0:48:32and it's just so much fun seeing the reactions.
0:48:32 > 0:48:37So what do they, for instance, that pack sell for?
0:48:37 > 0:48:38The little ones are £2.50.
0:48:38 > 0:48:41And what do they cost for you to make?
0:48:41 > 0:48:43From a cost perspective, obviously, it's very sensitive
0:48:43 > 0:48:46because I've got the contract that's there.
0:48:46 > 0:48:50I can tell you that I sell them from between about £1.20 and £1.43,
0:48:50 > 0:48:55and I make between 22% and 43% margin on that.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58Well, anybody can out work out, so it would be much easier
0:48:58 > 0:49:02- if you'd just tell me. What do they cost to make?- 83p.
0:49:02 > 0:49:04- I don't know if you want to see the packets.- I'd love to.
0:49:04 > 0:49:07Yeah, I'd like to see one of your packets please, Harriet.
0:49:09 > 0:49:13Harriet's gourmet marshmallows don't come cheap,
0:49:13 > 0:49:16but Duncan Bannatyne is quick to seize on one area
0:49:16 > 0:49:19where costs could be reduced.
0:49:21 > 0:49:23The trouble with this is it's over-packaged
0:49:23 > 0:49:25and that makes it so expensive.
0:49:25 > 0:49:30I'm fully aware that it is something that needs addressing.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32One of the reasons for that is it helps my shelf life,
0:49:32 > 0:49:34which has got me into the supermarkets.
0:49:34 > 0:49:35Mine have a six-month shelf life.
0:49:37 > 0:49:41Most of them come in at four months if they're really working on it.
0:49:41 > 0:49:43It's only a positive if the cost price comes down.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46What does your business plan look like?
0:49:46 > 0:49:51So, year one, I'm looking to turn over £220,000
0:49:51 > 0:49:52with a £17,000 loss.
0:49:53 > 0:49:56Year two is 560...
0:49:56 > 0:49:59with a £80,000 profit.
0:49:59 > 0:50:05And year three is 650,000 with 100,000 profit.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08- That's a lot of marshmallows. - That's a lot of marshmallows.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11Have you factored in the craze factor?
0:50:11 > 0:50:13There is a bit of a craze being talked about at the moment.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16We've got some innovation in terms of new products,
0:50:16 > 0:50:20so I'm in the middle of developing a spreadable version at the moment.
0:50:20 > 0:50:21It is early stage.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24But if everything goes to plan with that,
0:50:24 > 0:50:27that would be ready to launch by the end of the year.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31For now, I'm a marshmallow brand and that's what I'm focusing on
0:50:31 > 0:50:33to get everything else off the ground.
0:50:33 > 0:50:36I think you've done a really good job. I love the product, by the way.
0:50:36 > 0:50:38I think it tastes absolutely delicious.
0:50:38 > 0:50:42The thing that really strikes me is, as good as the pitch is,
0:50:42 > 0:50:45I do think that you've incredibly overvalued your business.
0:50:46 > 0:50:49You're predicting, in three years, £100k profit,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52which would value your business around six or seven times earnings,
0:50:52 > 0:50:56which I think is right. But you're offering me, today,
0:50:56 > 0:50:58a price to invest in you, but you're giving me the rate
0:50:58 > 0:51:01that you would be of where you see it could end up.
0:51:01 > 0:51:03So, that's with zero money.
0:51:03 > 0:51:05So if someone was to bring in the money,
0:51:05 > 0:51:09I can see this turning over much closer to 1.3 in about...
0:51:09 > 0:51:12So do you want to give me the figures if you receive £65,000,
0:51:12 > 0:51:15what you're going to deliver, years one, two and three?
0:51:22 > 0:51:24I don't think I know them.
0:51:26 > 0:51:31A gap in Harriet's financial projections has been exposed,
0:51:31 > 0:51:33marring her so far faultless pitch.
0:51:36 > 0:51:39Will it deter Deborah Meaden from making her an offer?
0:51:42 > 0:51:45I see many opportunities in the marshmallow market
0:51:45 > 0:51:47and in this premium end of it,
0:51:47 > 0:51:49but you are well overvalued.
0:51:51 > 0:51:53But you're good.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57So, I'm going to offer you all of the money...
0:51:59 > 0:52:02..but I want 33 and a third. I want a third of the business,
0:52:02 > 0:52:06to make sure that I'm engaged enough to work for you.
0:52:08 > 0:52:10(Thank you.)
0:52:10 > 0:52:13An early offer has given the other Dragons food for thought.
0:52:15 > 0:52:18Do Kelly Hoppen, Piers Linney or Duncan Bannatyne
0:52:18 > 0:52:22think there's money to be made in marshmallows?
0:52:25 > 0:52:28I think this could be... This could do very well.
0:52:31 > 0:52:34But you have an investment from a Dragon who already knows
0:52:34 > 0:52:36a little bit about this industry.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39I don't think I could improve on it much,
0:52:39 > 0:52:41so for that reason, and that reason only, I'm out.
0:52:43 > 0:52:45I think you're very sensible, very credible.
0:52:45 > 0:52:49I just don't get the valuation of £650,000.
0:52:51 > 0:52:53So, best of luck with it, but I'm out.
0:52:56 > 0:53:01I think one of the biggest issues you've got is that,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03as much as I think the product is great,
0:53:03 > 0:53:06I thought it tasted a bit more like nougat,
0:53:06 > 0:53:09which is kind of strange to me that you've gone down the
0:53:09 > 0:53:12marshmallow route when it's actually more like something else.
0:53:12 > 0:53:15I'm not going to make you an offer,
0:53:15 > 0:53:17so I'm afraid I'm out.
0:53:21 > 0:53:25Only Peter Jones is yet to declare his position.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28With an impressive track record of taking new products
0:53:28 > 0:53:32and turning them into supermarket staples,
0:53:32 > 0:53:35will he see merit in adding Mallow and Marsh
0:53:35 > 0:53:37to his investment portfolio?
0:53:41 > 0:53:43Harriet, I do think that you're going to need
0:53:43 > 0:53:45a little bit more money.
0:53:50 > 0:53:52So...
0:53:52 > 0:53:54I'm going to make you a higher offer.
0:54:02 > 0:54:07I'm going to offer you £80,000, not the £65,000 you've asked for...
0:54:07 > 0:54:09but for that I want 40%.
0:54:12 > 0:54:13Thank you.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19Can I take a moment? Thank you.
0:54:53 > 0:54:55I really do believe in the product
0:54:55 > 0:54:57and I really do believe in the valuation.
0:54:57 > 0:55:0240% is too high for what I believe my business to be worth.
0:55:04 > 0:55:08Levi Roots retained 60% of his business -
0:55:08 > 0:55:11he's now clearly a multi-millionaire.
0:55:11 > 0:55:14Sometimes it's not always about the percentage that you have,
0:55:14 > 0:55:15it's about the partner that you get.
0:55:15 > 0:55:18You're not prepared to shift on the equity side of things?
0:55:18 > 0:55:21No, because I think you're going to end up needing more money.
0:55:21 > 0:55:24And what I won't be doing is, when you do need more money, saying,
0:55:24 > 0:55:26"I want another 20%."
0:55:26 > 0:55:30I would say probably 90% of the investments that I'm still invested
0:55:30 > 0:55:34in have had substantial sums of cash from me to develop the business.
0:55:34 > 0:55:37Is there anything that you would be able to shift on,
0:55:37 > 0:55:39in terms of your percentage?
0:55:39 > 0:55:40What would you propose?
0:55:40 > 0:55:42I would be...
0:55:45 > 0:55:48I would be open to looking at 15%.
0:55:52 > 0:55:54I will provide the expertise
0:55:54 > 0:56:00and that's why I need enough in it to make that worth my while.
0:56:06 > 0:56:10I have the money available to me
0:56:10 > 0:56:15from an investor for roughly the 10% valuation.
0:56:17 > 0:56:18And I came here today because
0:56:18 > 0:56:20I genuinely think that you guys could bring more,
0:56:20 > 0:56:24a lot more to the table, because I think that is a cheque, effectively.
0:56:24 > 0:56:27But I do also believe in myself.
0:56:27 > 0:56:29I respect your clarity,
0:56:29 > 0:56:31but we are so far apart that it certainly knocks
0:56:31 > 0:56:36my deal out of the window, which is, I think, a shame but, I understand.
0:56:37 > 0:56:39I think you've eaten too many marshmallows
0:56:39 > 0:56:41and the sugar's gone to your brain.
0:56:41 > 0:56:45You've got to make it worth the while to get involved
0:56:45 > 0:56:47and 15% it's... It's high risk.
0:56:47 > 0:56:51Yeah, I totally understand.
0:56:51 > 0:56:52So I'm going to wish you well on your way,
0:56:52 > 0:56:56- but I'm not going to invest and I'm going to say I'm out.- Thank you.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02So, despite offers from two Dragons with the commercial clout
0:57:02 > 0:57:06to supercharge her push to market, Harriet decided to go it alone.
0:57:08 > 0:57:11A third of her business was ultimately too high a price to pay
0:57:11 > 0:57:14to secure an investment.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22In some ways, I'm gutted because I would've loved to have worked
0:57:22 > 0:57:24with either of them and I think it could've been such a ride,
0:57:24 > 0:57:28but I do believe it would've undervalued the business.
0:57:29 > 0:57:31It's either going to be the biggest mistake I've ever made
0:57:31 > 0:57:34or it's going to be one of the best decisions I've ever made.
0:57:34 > 0:57:37That tends to be the way with every single decision I make.
0:57:52 > 0:57:56It takes particular courage to turn down an offer from the Dragons.
0:57:56 > 0:57:59You can't say no and then change your mind.
0:57:59 > 0:58:04So it was a brave decision for Harriet to walk away with nothing,
0:58:04 > 0:58:06but was it the right one?
0:58:06 > 0:58:07Join the conversation about that,
0:58:07 > 0:58:09and all of tonight's pitches, on Twitter,
0:58:09 > 0:58:12using the hashtag "dragonsden".
0:58:15 > 0:58:17Next time in the den...
0:58:17 > 0:58:18Beautiful, aren't they?
0:58:18 > 0:58:22The scale of your ambition at 18 is unbelievable.
0:58:22 > 0:58:25It is a legally binding contract, but it is a framework agreement.
0:58:25 > 0:58:29It's a legally binding contract that you are breaching at the moment.
0:58:31 > 0:58:34You're now saying you want £100,000 for 33%.
0:58:34 > 0:58:36That's what you're saying.
0:58:36 > 0:58:39Are you making money or losing money?
0:58:39 > 0:58:41Erm... I think...
0:58:43 > 0:58:45- Oh, don't let go! - LAUGHTER