0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight on Dragons' Den...
0:00:08 > 0:00:11I've never actually thrown my glass of water over anybody yet.
0:00:11 > 0:00:12You could be the first.
0:00:14 > 0:00:18I can tell you one thing, you will look back and say, "Mistake."
0:00:20 > 0:00:22There's not a chance.
0:00:22 > 0:00:23I am definitely out.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28No, I'm not going to put myself in your shoes, because I don't have to.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32That is absolutely bonkers.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34I think you've blown it.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36Do you know, I think I'm going to make you an offer.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Welcome to Dragons' Den.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15It's here that business is done.
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Once those lift doors open,
0:01:17 > 0:01:21entrepreneurs' fortunes can be made or their dreams can be shattered.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29First in the Den tonight is Craig Knott from Yorkshire.
0:01:29 > 0:01:34An inventor entrepreneur, he takes the business world in his stride.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37Maybe I'm a little bit different cos I'm not led by making money.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41If a Dragon invests, I don't want it to change me.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44What I want is the support and the experience from a Dragon
0:01:44 > 0:01:46to move things forward.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Hoping Craig gets that support are his business associates,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53Alan Bowman and Peter Farragh.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55They've already backed him and his product.
0:01:55 > 0:01:57Will the Dragons do the same?
0:01:57 > 0:01:59I just think this is a proper product.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03- It's a bit of design. - I'm feeling nervous now.
0:02:03 > 0:02:04Go on, Craig.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13Hi, Dragons, pleased to meet you.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16My name is Craig, I'm the inventor and owner of Patlock.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19Patlock is a home security device
0:02:19 > 0:02:22for French doors and conservatory doors.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25I'm here today looking for an investment of £90,000
0:02:25 > 0:02:28for a 10% stake in the business.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32I developed Patlock following an attempted break-in at home,
0:02:32 > 0:02:34after which the police informed me
0:02:34 > 0:02:36just how easy it was to gain entry by snapping
0:02:36 > 0:02:38the standard Euro cylinder locks
0:02:38 > 0:02:40that are fitted to most French doors.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43It can take less than a minute for a burglar to do so.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47With over 1,000 burglaries taking place every single day in the UK,
0:02:47 > 0:02:50Patlock helps to make one of the most vulnerable parts
0:02:50 > 0:02:52of your home one of the safest.
0:02:55 > 0:02:56Patlock is quick and easy to fit.
0:02:58 > 0:03:02And provides the homeowner with instant peace of mind,
0:03:02 > 0:03:05as well as a clear visual deterrent to any would-be intruder.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09Patlock works by sitting on the internal handles
0:03:09 > 0:03:10and holding them secure...
0:03:12 > 0:03:13..and restricting the movement...
0:03:15 > 0:03:18..of the external handles...
0:03:18 > 0:03:21therefore retaining the locked position of all shoots and levers
0:03:21 > 0:03:22within the door mechanism.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29In two years of trading, we've sold over 20,000 units,
0:03:29 > 0:03:33with a turnover in excess of £350,000.
0:03:33 > 0:03:36And I expect that to reach £1 million
0:03:36 > 0:03:37within the next three years.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41We currently sell through our own website
0:03:41 > 0:03:44and also online through retailers such as Amazon,
0:03:44 > 0:03:48Argos, B&Q and Screwfix.
0:03:48 > 0:03:49With the help of a Dragon,
0:03:49 > 0:03:52we are hoping to increase the brand awareness,
0:03:52 > 0:03:54expand further into the retail industry
0:03:54 > 0:03:56and look to expand overseas.
0:03:56 > 0:03:57Thank you very much.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03It's a no-nonsense pitch from Craig Knott from Shipley,
0:04:03 > 0:04:07as he opens the door to a £90,000 investment
0:04:07 > 0:04:10for a 10% stake in his home security product.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12He's going to give them one each.
0:04:12 > 0:04:13That's our stock!
0:04:14 > 0:04:17But is there a catch with Craig's latch?
0:04:17 > 0:04:20First up with the questions is Peter Jones.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27If I were to smash the window from the outside...
0:04:27 > 0:04:29Yes.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32- ..I'd be able to open the door, wouldn't I?- You would.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34You'd be able to do that. Quite simply.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39The thing that a Patlock tells a burglar is that the homeowner
0:04:39 > 0:04:40is security conscious.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43So it may not be the only thing that they've got on their doors,
0:04:43 > 0:04:45it may not be the only thing they've got in the house.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47So is it not a bit like putting a sticker on your window,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50saying security alarm, and putting a false light outside?
0:04:50 > 0:04:52I suppose there's a whole range of things, isn't there?
0:04:52 > 0:04:53But it does the real thing.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57A burglar uses the lock snapping because it's quiet.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59You can break in quickly and quietly.
0:04:59 > 0:05:01Break a window, you make some noise.
0:05:01 > 0:05:03You alert people.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05So if it's a smash and grab, they're going to break it,
0:05:05 > 0:05:08they're going to do it anyway. But if they want to go further in,
0:05:08 > 0:05:10take more of your personal goods,
0:05:10 > 0:05:13then they're going to walk away from that and go somewhere else.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17Craig stands his ground,
0:05:17 > 0:05:21secure in his believe that his lock has the capacity to deter would-be
0:05:21 > 0:05:23intruders.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27And now Sarah Willingham wants to break into his numbers.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32- So you've been trading for two years.- Yeah.
0:05:32 > 0:05:38And over the course of those two years, your turnover has been 350?
0:05:38 > 0:05:40- Yes.- How has that grown? - In the first year,
0:05:40 > 0:05:43where we didn't start trading until the back end of it,
0:05:43 > 0:05:45we turned over 15,000.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47- OK.- The second year, 150.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50And this year, I expect to reach about 400,000.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54So why is this year different, what's happened?
0:05:54 > 0:05:58We've produced a TV ad, which we ran locally in Yorkshire,
0:05:58 > 0:06:02which created a great response, so we sold a lot of units through that.
0:06:02 > 0:06:06We've run it again on a satellite TV channel.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08And I can see that being the way forward.
0:06:08 > 0:06:11It's making the public aware that this product exists.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14How much did your TV advertising cost?
0:06:14 > 0:06:17In total, it cost about £25,000.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21And how many leads did that generate which ended up in conversions and
0:06:21 > 0:06:25- purchases? - It will be about 2,500 units.
0:06:25 > 0:06:27OK. How much are you selling that for?
0:06:27 > 0:06:30You can buy it online for between £50 and £60.
0:06:32 > 0:06:38So if you spend 25 grand and you get £125,000 worth of sales,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40what was your profit on that?
0:06:40 > 0:06:42It would be approximately 60,000.
0:06:42 > 0:06:47- So for every pound you are spending, you're getting £2.50 back?- Yes.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49I mean, that's a business model right there.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Of course it is a business model. That's why he's here.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59Craig's back-to-basics approach to selling his product
0:06:59 > 0:07:02has demonstrated an impressive yield.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07Now, the Den's go-to Dragon for DIY investments is keen
0:07:07 > 0:07:11to get to the bottom of how his website is coping with the demand.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14- BOTH:- Eh!- Deborah's here.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20When you place an advert, how many people buy one of those?
0:07:20 > 0:07:22- Through our website? - Through your website.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24Not many at all cos we price it too high.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27All right. So, hold on, your £50 and £60 price.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31Is that a real price, or is that a price to stop people buying it?
0:07:31 > 0:07:34No, £50 to 60 is what the resellers sell online.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38- So if you go on Amazon...- All right. What do you sell it at online?
0:07:38 > 0:07:3964.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42Oh, my goodness, Craig!
0:07:42 > 0:07:44Craig, Craig, Craig.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46It's frustrating her, I love it!
0:07:46 > 0:07:49- Can I say these words back to you? - Go on.
0:07:49 > 0:07:50Try and keep a straight face.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54All right? I've got something I know people want to buy,
0:07:54 > 0:07:56but I really can't be bothered to sell it to them.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58- It's not not being bothered. - So what I actually do,
0:07:58 > 0:08:01what I actually do is I overprice it...
0:08:01 > 0:08:04- You see, you are smiling.- Yeah.
0:08:05 > 0:08:09Based on what you've just told Deborah about it being £64
0:08:09 > 0:08:14from your website but about 55-ish everywhere else,
0:08:14 > 0:08:16do people come to your website to buy it but go, "Hang on a minute..."
0:08:16 > 0:08:18Then they go look somewhere else.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25They don't look impressed.
0:08:26 > 0:08:30The shock revelation that Craig is deliberately deflecting sales
0:08:30 > 0:08:34away from his own website has done little to make the Dragons
0:08:34 > 0:08:36feel secure in the investment proposition.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41Can Nick Jenkins, who made his millions in e-commerce,
0:08:41 > 0:08:42fathom it out?
0:08:45 > 0:08:48So, presumably you are intending through your TV advertising
0:08:48 > 0:08:50to get them to go to your website and buy from you directly.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52- Is that right?- No, it's not.
0:08:52 > 0:08:54Why? Why would you not do that?
0:08:54 > 0:08:57I don't want to deal with all the postage and single orders.
0:08:57 > 0:08:58That's absolutely nuts.
0:08:58 > 0:09:03- Yes, exactly.- What I've tried to do is drive people to the companies who
0:09:03 > 0:09:05buy stock from us,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08so that they are dealing with all the day-to-day orders, the postage,
0:09:08 > 0:09:10the problems like that. So I'm not having to deal with every single
0:09:10 > 0:09:13- order which comes through. - Are you a one-man band?
0:09:13 > 0:09:15For this business, there's two of us.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17Oh. How many businesses have you got?
0:09:17 > 0:09:19I've got a manufacturing business.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24- How big is that business?- It's turnover is just under a million.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27- Is that profitable?- Yes, it makes a profit, makes me a wage.
0:09:29 > 0:09:34Touker Suleyman has uncovered Craig's main business interest,
0:09:34 > 0:09:35which appears to take precedence
0:09:35 > 0:09:39over the business he's come in to pitch.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42The revelation is not sitting well with Deborah Meaden.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Businesses that I work with stand or fall on that absolute
0:09:50 > 0:09:52"I've got something."
0:09:52 > 0:09:54And do you know, they might have a product
0:09:54 > 0:09:55that's half as good as yours,
0:09:55 > 0:09:57but they are going to sell it.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59They're going to make sure their website is active,
0:09:59 > 0:10:00and they're going for it.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02It's not a case of that.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05You've got to look after your bread-and-butter.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Put yourself in my shoes. I've got a business which supplies me with a
0:10:09 > 0:10:11- wage.- No, I'm not going to put myself in your shoes...
0:10:11 > 0:10:14- All right.- Because I don't have to.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20I like it, and I like you.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22But it's low-energy.
0:10:22 > 0:10:24OK, relaxed.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28- He's too relaxed, that's the problem.- He's laid back.
0:10:28 > 0:10:33No. Not even relaxed, I don't mind relaxed.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35- Right.- Low energy is different to relaxed.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37- OK.- There's just no...
0:10:39 > 0:10:42And I think it's a real shame because I think you have definitely,
0:10:42 > 0:10:45definitely, you've got something here.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48And this is why you've got to have the energy to do this.
0:10:48 > 0:10:53Just grab it and take the lid off every barrier that you see,
0:10:53 > 0:10:54knock it down and just sell.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59But I'm sadly not convinced,
0:10:59 > 0:11:02you haven't convinced me in here that you've got that in you.
0:11:03 > 0:11:04I'm out.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10- HE WHISPERS - You can't change a person.
0:11:10 > 0:11:11Never mind.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19Deborah Meaden is the first Dragon to bolt from the deal,
0:11:19 > 0:11:23refusing to step into Craig's shoes or invest in his business.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27And Peter Jones is feeling similarly disillusioned
0:11:27 > 0:11:29with the deal on offer.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33I'm going to tell you where I am.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35So, I think the product,
0:11:35 > 0:11:37it's a neat product and I think it clearly...
0:11:37 > 0:11:39it does what it says on the tin.
0:11:40 > 0:11:42I am
0:11:42 > 0:11:46really not interested as an opportunity as a business.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50- OK.- And I think you have clearly come in here with a one-hit wonder
0:11:50 > 0:11:53product, thinking you can pass all responsibility over,
0:11:53 > 0:11:57and direction for running it, to the potential investor,
0:11:57 > 0:11:58and that does not excite me.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02You need to fight back, Craig.
0:12:04 > 0:12:05That's not what I'm after.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08- A little bit of guidance... - It's about commitment...
0:12:09 > 0:12:11- ..to the business and the cause.- OK.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14And if you have another business and this is a sideline business,
0:12:14 > 0:12:18a one-hit product wonder, when this sells out,
0:12:18 > 0:12:20I've got a business that's going nowhere fast.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22And that doesn't interest me at all.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24So that's the reason why I'm not going to invest,
0:12:24 > 0:12:26- and say that I'm out. - All right. Thanks.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32If I were to make an investment, it would need a lot of work.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35The fact that you've got another business, the fact that nobody
0:12:35 > 0:12:38works for this business, that's my...problem.
0:12:39 > 0:12:44I can only say that the business I've got now, the existing one,
0:12:44 > 0:12:48I've run for ten years, and it's been successful for me.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51It's taken a lot of time and effort to keep it that way,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54and I can put that energy into Patlock and do exactly the same
0:12:54 > 0:12:56with that, if not even more.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08OK. If it was different, I would invest.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10But, however, because of the way it is at the moment,
0:13:10 > 0:13:12and the amount of time it's going to be,
0:13:12 > 0:13:14I'm afraid I can't invest in this - I'm out.
0:13:19 > 0:13:20Close but no cigar,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23as Touker Suleyman makes a hasty retreat,
0:13:23 > 0:13:25hot on the heels of Peter Jones.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30Will Nick Jenkins see a window of opportunity?
0:13:32 > 0:13:33If you really grasp this,
0:13:33 > 0:13:37you probably have the means to really make this work.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40I like to invest in businesses that have a long-term future.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43And ultimately, this is a problem of a design in patio doors
0:13:43 > 0:13:46which will be sold in the future, so in five years' time,
0:13:46 > 0:13:48everyone who needs to buy these things will have either bought them
0:13:48 > 0:13:51or they'll have bought doors that don't have this issue.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53So I don't really see a future for it.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56So I'm afraid I can't invest in it.
0:13:58 > 0:13:59I'm out.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05Nick Jenkins exits the deal,
0:14:05 > 0:14:08unconvinced that the burglar-proof device
0:14:08 > 0:14:10is a future-proof investment opportunity.
0:14:12 > 0:14:15Now only one Dragon remains.
0:14:18 > 0:14:23Where you lost me was that moment where you said,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25"But this isn't my bread and butter."
0:14:25 > 0:14:27And that's a real struggle because...
0:14:28 > 0:14:31..in order for me to invest in something with you,
0:14:31 > 0:14:33I don't just want it to be your bread and butter,
0:14:33 > 0:14:35but I want it to be your whipped cream on top as well.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37I want it to be EVERYTHING.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42From my point of view, that makes it quite difficult to invest in and to
0:14:42 > 0:14:44commit to because you're the magic,
0:14:44 > 0:14:45you're the guy that's got to make it work,
0:14:45 > 0:14:47no matter how many doors I open.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52So, I mean, I think you'll make some money out of it.
0:14:53 > 0:14:54And I wish you all the very best,
0:14:54 > 0:14:56- because it's a great product, actually.- Righty.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58But I'm really sorry, I'm not going to invest.
0:14:58 > 0:14:59- OK.- So I'm out.
0:15:02 > 0:15:04- Thanks very much.- Well done, Craig.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06- I'll take your advice on board. - DRAGONS:- Good luck.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14A reluctance to sell the product through his website
0:15:14 > 0:15:17and Dragon doubts over the time he can commit to the business
0:15:17 > 0:15:21means that Craig leaves the Den without the loot he came in for.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30- Hey, hey!- Oh... That went well(!)
0:15:30 > 0:15:35- It's fine.- You were brilliant. You did great.- Well done.- Fantastic.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39I never felt it was going well.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42From the minute I walked in, it was question, question, question.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45- And your mind goes blank. - I can believe the pressure.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47You could see the pressure on your face.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50Peter called it a one-hit wonder, and I'm OK with that,
0:15:50 > 0:15:51as long as it makes number one.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07The next entrepreneur into the Den
0:16:07 > 0:16:09is Angela Sterling from County Durham,
0:16:09 > 0:16:14who traded teaching for business after a flash of inspiration.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19I pretty much came up with the idea and started doing it.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23I've been a teacher for a lot of years,
0:16:23 > 0:16:25so it was just a case of taking that teaching expertise
0:16:25 > 0:16:27and bringing it down for younger children.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30Are the Dragons going to be inside?
0:16:30 > 0:16:32- WHISPERS:- They are! Yes.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34- Whee!- Are you excited?
0:16:34 > 0:16:38In business, I like to be really honest, ethical, upfront, you know,
0:16:38 > 0:16:39just like my personality.
0:16:39 > 0:16:40I wear my heart on my sleeve.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44Big smile! Let's get ready.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58# Buenos dias
0:16:58 > 0:17:00# Me presento
0:17:00 > 0:17:02# Buenos dias
0:17:02 > 0:17:03# Hola
0:17:03 > 0:17:06# Zhe shi wo de tou
0:17:06 > 0:17:09# Zhe shi wo de tou
0:17:09 > 0:17:13# Ni hao, ni hao, hi
0:17:13 > 0:17:17# Bonjour, bonjour Je me presente
0:17:17 > 0:17:20# Bonjour, bonjour Salut
0:17:20 > 0:17:24# Hello, hello, hi. #
0:17:24 > 0:17:27- PETER:- I'm in. - SHE LAUGHS
0:17:27 > 0:17:29(Well done.)
0:17:29 > 0:17:31Hello, Dragons. I'm delighted to be here today,
0:17:31 > 0:17:33my name is Angela Sterling,
0:17:33 > 0:17:36and I'm here to pitch for £50,000
0:17:36 > 0:17:38in return for 10% of my business,
0:17:38 > 0:17:40Lingotot language classes for children.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44The UK needs great linguists for businesses to thrive
0:17:44 > 0:17:46in the global economy,
0:17:46 > 0:17:49and research tells us that the very best time to learn a language
0:17:49 > 0:17:51is before adolescence.
0:17:51 > 0:17:55And in 2014, languages became compulsory in primary schools
0:17:55 > 0:17:58in England. And that's where Lingotot comes in.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01We teach French, Spanish, German,
0:18:01 > 0:18:06Mandarin and Arabic to children aged from birth to 11
0:18:06 > 0:18:08through a network of 30 franchisees.
0:18:08 > 0:18:12And we teach around about 10,000 children every week.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15Last year, I turned over £188,000,
0:18:15 > 0:18:18making a net profit of £88,000.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20So, Dragons, hopefully with your help,
0:18:20 > 0:18:23we can get more children in the UK and across the world speaking in
0:18:23 > 0:18:25different languages.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27Avez-vous des questions? Right, boys and girls.
0:18:31 > 0:18:33Give me a high-five.
0:18:33 > 0:18:37It's a tres bien pitch from Angela Sterling from County Durham,
0:18:37 > 0:18:42who is asking for £50,000 in return for 10% of her franchise-based
0:18:42 > 0:18:45multi-language classes for kids.
0:18:45 > 0:18:46OK, boys and girls. Au revoir!
0:18:46 > 0:18:47- Merci beaucoup.- Cheers!
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Sarah Willingham, who has a lucrative track record
0:18:52 > 0:18:54in rolling out global franchises,
0:18:54 > 0:18:56is first with the questions.
0:18:56 > 0:18:59Will she find a common language with the linguistic entrepreneur?
0:19:03 > 0:19:04I haven't quite got my head round it.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07Just explain a little bit more to me as a customer
0:19:07 > 0:19:09- what my experience would be. - Absolutely. Well,
0:19:09 > 0:19:13I kind of have two different levels of speaking to you as a customer.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15The first would be as mum.
0:19:15 > 0:19:20So imagine you go along to all kinds of preschool classes with your
0:19:20 > 0:19:23children, so that might be messy play,
0:19:23 > 0:19:27it might be a little bit of singing, it might be drama.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30We do exactly that, but in a foreign language.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34But then we have a second tier where we work with nurseries and schools,
0:19:34 > 0:19:35and schools particularly.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38So we go into the school, we come in with all of the lessons,
0:19:38 > 0:19:43the resources, and we crucially provide the languages teacher.
0:19:43 > 0:19:44OK, so up until the age of five,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47you are delivering it direct to the child?
0:19:47 > 0:19:50- Yes.- And past the age of five, you are going into schools?
0:19:50 > 0:19:52- Yes.- Angela.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54- Yes.- Hi.- Hello, Peter.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57I immediately have quite a few concerns.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00You're making some very bold statements.
0:20:00 > 0:20:03Your current network are teaching 10,000 kids per week.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06- Yes.- So last week you taught 10,000 children.
0:20:06 > 0:20:08What did you generate in income?
0:20:08 > 0:20:13Um, I bill the franchisees their 10% fee
0:20:13 > 0:20:15at the end of every academic term.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18I don't do it monthly. Or weekly.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20So generally speaking...
0:20:23 > 0:20:26..they would turn over, as a network,
0:20:26 > 0:20:29around about £500,000 a year.
0:20:29 > 0:20:30And you charge them what, 10%?
0:20:30 > 0:20:31Yes.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35So you charge them 50,000 for the year?
0:20:35 > 0:20:37Yes.
0:20:37 > 0:20:42So in simple terms, £10,000 a week is being generated by your network?
0:20:42 > 0:20:44So about £1 per child average.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46Wow.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49I've never broken down the figures to that extent before.
0:20:53 > 0:20:58Despite Angela's Lingotot classes reaching 10,000 children a week,
0:20:58 > 0:21:03Peter Jones's forensic breakdown of her figures reveals that per child,
0:21:03 > 0:21:07there are only small profits to be made for a Dragon investor.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11Can she persuade Deborah Meaden that investing in her business
0:21:11 > 0:21:12will be money well spent?
0:21:15 > 0:21:17What are you going to do with the money,
0:21:17 > 0:21:18what do you need the money for?
0:21:18 > 0:21:21Two things. One of them is really to get more bums on seats,
0:21:21 > 0:21:24to sell more franchises, grow the network as much as possible.
0:21:26 > 0:21:27But mainly...
0:21:29 > 0:21:31I'm really, really nervous telling you this.
0:21:31 > 0:21:34I know immediately you're going to go, "Oh!"
0:21:34 > 0:21:35Just say it.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39I've never actually thrown my glass of water over anybody yet.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41You could be the first.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46We are seriously looking to export to Dubai,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49and I have very good reasons for it, I promise.
0:21:49 > 0:21:50OK, go on, then.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53Because if I was in your shoes, I'd be saying, "Well, Angela, come on,
0:21:53 > 0:21:55"you've only just got a tiny little bit of the UK,
0:21:55 > 0:21:57"why on earth would you be wanting to go to Dubai?"
0:21:57 > 0:22:02- Yes.- So the answer is, I used to work there, I used to teach there.
0:22:03 > 0:22:08Most of the schools there are great big international private schools.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10Full of expat children.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14And the issue that they have is because they are in the Middle East,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17they need to teach at least four hours of Arabic to the children
0:22:17 > 0:22:20every week. But their Arabic teachers,
0:22:20 > 0:22:22they've been taught to teach in a very different way.
0:22:22 > 0:22:23Very chalk and talk.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26And it alienates children.
0:22:26 > 0:22:31Their version of Ofsted are really looking for partners in the UK.
0:22:31 > 0:22:33They have a problem, I have the perfect solution,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36and if I don't move on it now, I'm going to miss the boat.
0:22:39 > 0:22:41In an unanticipated twist,
0:22:41 > 0:22:44Angela has revealed audacious expansion plans.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48And now Touker Suleyman is keen to find out
0:22:48 > 0:22:50how a Dragon would fit into them.
0:22:53 > 0:22:55Angela,
0:22:55 > 0:22:58- apart from money...- Mm-hm.
0:22:58 > 0:23:00..what do you want from a Dragon?
0:23:00 > 0:23:01Support.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04Support.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07I'd really... I'm feeling myself getting emotional.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13I'm a teacher, I've learned the business as I go along.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17Oh, I'm so sorry. I wasn't expecting this.
0:23:17 > 0:23:18Oh, dear.
0:23:19 > 0:23:20How embarrassing.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24And all of the business, I'm really proud of it,
0:23:24 > 0:23:26but I've had to learn it from scratch.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31And I feel at the moment, I feel constrained.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Because I don't know the answers to the questions.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38I don't know the right people to ask the questions to,
0:23:38 > 0:23:41and most of the time I don't even know the question.
0:23:41 > 0:23:43I'm dead sorry, I wasn't expecting this.
0:23:43 > 0:23:46- It's all right. - It's really frustrating.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50So...
0:23:50 > 0:23:52What I would love from a Dragon...
0:23:53 > 0:23:57..is just answers, you know.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00I want to do this, how do I do it, what do I do, where do I go?
0:24:01 > 0:24:03Who do I ask?
0:24:07 > 0:24:10While an emotional Angela recovers her composure,
0:24:10 > 0:24:13her ambitious strategy for international growth
0:24:13 > 0:24:15is playing on Sarah Willingham's mind.
0:24:18 > 0:24:22The challenge I'm really feeling sitting here thinking about it
0:24:22 > 0:24:25as an investment opportunity is that
0:24:25 > 0:24:28it becomes really complicated when you start to go abroad.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30I understand why you've done the Dubai thing.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32But you are limited to the international school market,
0:24:32 > 0:24:38you are very limited to the places where you have significant expats.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40It's not enormous.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42Not franchising, though.
0:24:42 > 0:24:43Not franchising.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45Franchising will not work in Dubai.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48We are going to teach them how to deliver a Lingotot course.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54If I can share with you the projections for Dubai,
0:24:54 > 0:24:55that might help.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59So, I've had all of this checked by specialists as well,
0:24:59 > 0:25:03and they actually think I'm under egging things.
0:25:03 > 0:25:08But I'm looking at this year, we'd be turning over £750,000,
0:25:08 > 0:25:10with a net profit of 500.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13Year two, 1.3, with a net profit of one million.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17And then two million, with a net profit of 1.5 million.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20And that's simply because, over in Dubai,
0:25:20 > 0:25:23we would be going out as almost consultants,
0:25:23 > 0:25:25we'd be upskilling their teachers.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27We'd go out, we'd train them,
0:25:27 > 0:25:29we'd provide them with all the materials and support, but...
0:25:29 > 0:25:32- Angela. Angela, that's mad. - SARAH:- That means your franchisees
0:25:32 > 0:25:35- are turning over 10 million. - It's not mad.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36It's absolutely mad. Do you know what,
0:25:36 > 0:25:38- you need to put maths into this. - Yeah.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40No, I've had all the figures checked.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42Angela, I can tell you, it's nonsense.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46It doesn't matter who you have checked over your numbers,
0:25:46 > 0:25:49you can't go from forecasting what you are forecasting and now thinking
0:25:49 > 0:25:53Dubai is going to produce that type of profit in year one,
0:25:53 > 0:25:57and then particularly £1 million a year profit in year two.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59That first year profit is five schools.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01It's just not possible.
0:26:01 > 0:26:02I've got appointments with people...
0:26:02 > 0:26:04You can have as many appointments as you like,
0:26:04 > 0:26:07but it's not going to be possible to produce that.
0:26:07 > 0:26:08With the experience that you have,
0:26:08 > 0:26:10and the knowledge that you currently have,
0:26:10 > 0:26:14to go from zero to hero in that one quick step,
0:26:14 > 0:26:17thinking that Dubai is going to be your lucky ticket
0:26:17 > 0:26:20is where the naivete kicks in, in your business model.
0:26:24 > 0:26:28I've been in education since 2005, I know it quite well.
0:26:28 > 0:26:29And it's a tough market.
0:26:29 > 0:26:33- It is.- If I run it as a business today, I would lose money.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36And I don't think I'm bad at running businesses.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40So I say, good look to you, keep going,
0:26:40 > 0:26:44there's nothing wrong with having drive and enthusiasm and a vision.
0:26:44 > 0:26:47I would just stay at the level of which you are today to grow it
0:26:47 > 0:26:51organically. Don't scale this to the levels you want to because you will
0:26:51 > 0:26:52run out of cash.
0:26:53 > 0:26:57But it's not a business for me to invest in, and I'm out.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03Peter Jones doesn't share Angela's optimistic expectations
0:27:03 > 0:27:06of her venture into the Middle East.
0:27:06 > 0:27:11Is internet mogul Nick Jenkins also concerned that she's biting off more
0:27:11 > 0:27:13than she can chew?
0:27:14 > 0:27:18I think those numbers are just entirely unrealistic
0:27:18 > 0:27:20in the context of how business works.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22Whenever you're going into business,
0:27:22 > 0:27:23think about it from both sides.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25And ask yourself, does this make sense?
0:27:25 > 0:27:28Always put yourself in the buyer's seat.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31- No, we have, and the figures... - OK, that didn't require an answer,
0:27:31 > 0:27:33that was just a piece of advice.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36I hope you will make a good success of what you've done.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38- Thank you.- But I'm out.- Thank you.
0:27:41 > 0:27:45- Angela...- Yes.- When you look at a franchise business,
0:27:45 > 0:27:49you have to look at the underlying ongoing revenue,
0:27:49 > 0:27:51- not the franchise fee revenue. - Absolutely.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55Cos at some point, the franchise fee revenue is going to stop.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57And if you think of 30 franchisees at the moment,
0:27:57 > 0:28:00you are making 40 or 50 grand.
0:28:00 > 0:28:02So let's say we get to 200,
0:28:02 > 0:28:05we're looking at a 300 grand revenue.
0:28:05 > 0:28:09But we are not because a lot of the recently signed up franchisees,
0:28:09 > 0:28:13they haven't had their chance to start making their money yet.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16- OK, let's double it.- Mm-hm.
0:28:16 > 0:28:18It's still 600,000.
0:28:18 > 0:28:22There's still a really obvious ceiling
0:28:22 > 0:28:24on where the business can get to.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29So all the best, but I'm out.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35The Den's franchising queen declines the deal.
0:28:35 > 0:28:40Will global manufacturing tycoon Touker Suleyman be any more willing
0:28:40 > 0:28:42to invest in the determined entrepreneur?
0:28:47 > 0:28:50What you need is to bring on a partner.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53- Do you think?- Locally, that's very close to you.
0:28:53 > 0:28:58My husband is really keen to come on board.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01He has got a lot of business experience.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04- That's what you need.- But it's getting the business to a level
0:29:04 > 0:29:05where we can afford to bring him in.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07From what you are saying,
0:29:07 > 0:29:09there's a lot of profit coming through
0:29:09 > 0:29:11which will afford your husband.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15- Yes, true.- My advice is, take it slowly,
0:29:15 > 0:29:17calculate it,
0:29:17 > 0:29:21don't stretch yourself too much or you jeopardise what you've got.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23Mm-hm.
0:29:23 > 0:29:25So, you probably know what's coming.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27- This is not for me.- Yes.
0:29:27 > 0:29:31I've told you what you need, and for that reason, Angela, I'm out.
0:29:33 > 0:29:34Phoo!
0:29:36 > 0:29:39Encouraging words for the passionate entrepreneur,
0:29:39 > 0:29:42but Angela gets none of Touker Suleyman's cash.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Only Deborah Meaden remains.
0:29:45 > 0:29:48Will she be a financial shoulder to cry on?
0:29:51 > 0:29:53I'm going to tell you where I am.
0:29:53 > 0:29:55You did very well.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57No, when you got upset.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59But you got upset at the moment where you were talking
0:29:59 > 0:30:01about support, and that's because you feel lonely.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05- I'm doing it again. - That's because you feel lonely.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08I'll bet you every single person in this chair has had those moment of
0:30:08 > 0:30:11total loneliness. When you are in business with somebody,
0:30:11 > 0:30:15you do sometimes need to spend time together.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18When you feel like, "I want to sit down for a cup of tea,
0:30:18 > 0:30:19"I just want to work this out."
0:30:21 > 0:30:23I don't think we are going to be able to spend
0:30:23 > 0:30:25a lot of time together. I've got a lot of other businesses.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28- Yes.- So...
0:30:28 > 0:30:32If it had been natural for me, if it had been a natural area,
0:30:32 > 0:30:34I think we could probably have overcome that.
0:30:34 > 0:30:36But I can't find anything
0:30:36 > 0:30:39that is making me feel I could deliver for you,
0:30:39 > 0:30:41to be perfectly honest.
0:30:41 > 0:30:45So I wish you all the best of luck, but I'm afraid I won't be investing.
0:30:45 > 0:30:46I'm out.
0:30:47 > 0:30:49- Thank you.- DRAGONS:- Good luck. - Thank you, goodbye.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53As she bids the Dragons farewell,
0:30:53 > 0:30:56Angela leaves the Den without an investment.
0:30:56 > 0:30:59But there is plenty of homework to be getting on with.
0:31:01 > 0:31:03She's done well to take it to this level.
0:31:03 > 0:31:07She'll get to 70, 90, 100 franchisees even,
0:31:07 > 0:31:09where she will be able to manage it.
0:31:09 > 0:31:11She should focus here in the UK,
0:31:11 > 0:31:14keep going, and when she thinks of Dubai,
0:31:14 > 0:31:16consider it a holiday, not a business.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20I'm embarrassed at how emotional I got.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22It just came out of nowhere.
0:31:22 > 0:31:23And, look, I'm still doing it.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27I think it's just because it's so close to me heart.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30The idea they had of searching for a business partner was a really,
0:31:30 > 0:31:33really good one. So I'm just going to sit down with a cuppa,
0:31:33 > 0:31:35a blank bit of paper and a pencil and plan it all out.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49Still to come, the Dragons are offered a deal they CAN refuse...
0:31:49 > 0:31:52In what way would that interest me as an investor?
0:31:54 > 0:31:57I think you're going to realise how audacious to come in and to almost
0:31:57 > 0:32:00lord that value in front of us.
0:32:01 > 0:32:03You've done absolutely the wrong thing here.
0:32:03 > 0:32:05You want to offer me something
0:32:05 > 0:32:07that my ten-year-old would probably decline.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10..and one they wish they hadn't.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12If it helps, I'm already regretting going out.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21The Dragons have been known to get excited about new technology
0:32:21 > 0:32:25that has the potential to solve everyday problems.
0:32:25 > 0:32:29But in the Den, the deal needs to be just as enticing as the product.
0:32:29 > 0:32:32Now that's a challenge that could face
0:32:32 > 0:32:34our next entrepreneurial twosome.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37They're here to pitch a tech investment
0:32:37 > 0:32:39that is sure to turn heads,
0:32:39 > 0:32:41but it may not be for the right reasons.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48I think each of us brings a different thing to the company.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51We have different kinds of skills and skill sets.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54Like business minds and technical side.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59I definitely think the biggest challenge when we are in the Den is
0:32:59 > 0:33:02probably about the company structure and how the company is organised.
0:33:02 > 0:33:04But I think once it is understood,
0:33:04 > 0:33:06it should all be fine and straightforward.
0:33:06 > 0:33:10But will the Dragons buy into their straightforward business set-up?
0:33:18 > 0:33:19Good afternoon, Dragons.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22My name is Juma El-Awaisi and this is my colleague, Anwar Almojarkesh.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25And we are here today to seek £50,000 of investment
0:33:25 > 0:33:27for a 20% share in our company,
0:33:27 > 0:33:31a company that has a sole and exclusive right to sell
0:33:31 > 0:33:33Braci products in the UK.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36Braci is a sound recognition platform that allows users
0:33:36 > 0:33:38to convert sounds that happen around them
0:33:38 > 0:33:41into visual and sensory notifications.
0:33:41 > 0:33:42From this technology,
0:33:42 > 0:33:44we've empowered several different applications -
0:33:44 > 0:33:47an application that can help people to stop snoring,
0:33:47 > 0:33:49an application that can act as a baby monitor,
0:33:49 > 0:33:51and an application which helps the deaf,
0:33:51 > 0:33:54hard of hearing and elderly to be able to feel safer,
0:33:54 > 0:33:56secure and more comfortable in knowing they'd be alerted
0:33:56 > 0:34:00to all the different types of sounds that happen in their environments.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02If we look at this one market,
0:34:02 > 0:34:04there is around one in every six people in the UK
0:34:04 > 0:34:06that have some degree of hearing loss.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08That's around 10 million.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11Globally, that's around 360 million.
0:34:11 > 0:34:14So, let's take a real-life situation.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17The application already downloaded on this phone.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21If we imagine a person who is deaf, sitting in their home,
0:34:21 > 0:34:23and their doorbell goes off.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27DOORBELL RINGS
0:34:27 > 0:34:29The phone will vibrate,
0:34:29 > 0:34:32the lights will flash and will show you an on-screen notification,
0:34:32 > 0:34:35"doorbell detected," as you can see on the screen.
0:34:35 > 0:34:39Plus, the smart watch on my wrist will vibrate and will show me,
0:34:39 > 0:34:42"doorbell detected."
0:34:42 > 0:34:45What this platform allows you to do is to convert any type of sound
0:34:45 > 0:34:48through any type of smart device into any type of notification.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52The way that we sell the product is through three main ways.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54Online, through the website,
0:34:54 > 0:34:57through organisations that have regulatory requirements to provide
0:34:57 > 0:34:59assistive technology for people that have a hearing loss,
0:34:59 > 0:35:02such as local authorities, and finally,
0:35:02 > 0:35:05through retail stores and pharmacies.
0:35:05 > 0:35:06We'd be more than happy to demonstrate
0:35:06 > 0:35:10more of the products to you. Thank you very much for listening.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13A techy pitch without a hitch
0:35:13 > 0:35:16for Juma El-Awaisi and Anwar Almojarkesh.
0:35:16 > 0:35:19- It's a watch, is it?- It's just a normal Pebble smart watch.
0:35:19 > 0:35:23They are asking for £50,000 in return for a 20% share
0:35:23 > 0:35:26in their company that has exclusive rights to sell
0:35:26 > 0:35:29the sound recognition converter in the UK.
0:35:29 > 0:35:32So what I'm going to do right now is reactivate the doorbell.
0:35:32 > 0:35:35DOORBELL RINGS
0:35:35 > 0:35:38We can also try with another sound if you'd like, with the smoke alarm.
0:35:38 > 0:35:41SMOKE ALARM BEEPS
0:35:41 > 0:35:44The product demonstration may have passed muster,
0:35:44 > 0:35:47but there's something about the investment deal on offer
0:35:47 > 0:35:50that has set alarm bells ringing for Peter Jones.
0:35:54 > 0:35:59You started off by saying you've got the licence to this technology.
0:35:59 > 0:36:02So this isn't something you two have developed, then?
0:36:02 > 0:36:03So we've got another company,
0:36:03 > 0:36:05and everything is owned by the other company,
0:36:05 > 0:36:07which is in Denmark.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10And that company is all focused about creating technology,
0:36:10 > 0:36:12developing the technology.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15So we've got this UK company that acts as a distribution channel or a
0:36:15 > 0:36:19sales channel with the only right to sell in the UK.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22Are you offering part of the holding company in Denmark?
0:36:22 > 0:36:24You are offering your 20% share in that?
0:36:24 > 0:36:27No, it's 20% share in the UK company.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30So over there, you're interested in building all the technology,
0:36:30 > 0:36:31- new products coming out of it.- Yeah.
0:36:31 > 0:36:35All the real IP and the huge value and...
0:36:35 > 0:36:37But you don't want to offer that today.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40No, in the future, and we discussed this with the investors,
0:36:40 > 0:36:43they would be more than happy if other investors did want to come in
0:36:43 > 0:36:44and invest into that company.
0:36:46 > 0:36:48You cannot come in here with a technology product
0:36:48 > 0:36:51and offer me a distribution deal.
0:36:51 > 0:36:52That is absolutely bonkers.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00Peter Jones brushes over the product itself and cuts to the chase over
0:37:00 > 0:37:04their decision to only offer investment in the UK arm
0:37:04 > 0:37:07of their Denmark-based business.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10Can Deborah Meaden persuade them to rethink?
0:37:13 > 0:37:16What you've done here, you've failed to look at it
0:37:16 > 0:37:18from an investor's point of view.
0:37:18 > 0:37:20I completely get why you're stood there.
0:37:20 > 0:37:23You've got this stuff over here that you've come up with,
0:37:23 > 0:37:25that is sitting in Denmark,
0:37:25 > 0:37:27and could end up, once you've proved the model,
0:37:27 > 0:37:29could end up really valuable.
0:37:29 > 0:37:31But you've got to prove the model.
0:37:31 > 0:37:36So you think, "Right, who can I get on board to help prove that model?"
0:37:37 > 0:37:41Get all that, I get exactly what you are doing.
0:37:41 > 0:37:44In what way would that interest me as an investor?
0:37:45 > 0:37:48The return on investment in the second and third year,
0:37:48 > 0:37:50the expectations we are looking to do,
0:37:50 > 0:37:53that by itself is a return on the investment
0:37:53 > 0:37:55we would be looking at today.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59Yeah... Particularly for me,
0:37:59 > 0:38:02I want to be part of something,
0:38:02 > 0:38:04not a part of part of parts of something.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07Cos I think you misunderstand
0:38:07 > 0:38:10the whole investor/business relationship here going on.
0:38:10 > 0:38:12Or you think we don't understand it.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15I can see clear as a bell why you'd do it,
0:38:15 > 0:38:18you haven't thought at all about why I would do it.
0:38:20 > 0:38:22The UK company still does hold some IP.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24It's not IP-less.
0:38:24 > 0:38:28So the IP that is focused in Denmark is focused around the sound
0:38:28 > 0:38:31recognition platform around the deaf and hard of hearing product,
0:38:31 > 0:38:32and things around that.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35So what is the IP that's owned in the new company
0:38:35 > 0:38:36that you want to set up?
0:38:36 > 0:38:40In this company? It's in relation to things for expanding,
0:38:40 > 0:38:42so if we want to develop things in relation to cars,
0:38:42 > 0:38:46so things like emergency sirens, police sirens
0:38:46 > 0:38:47and various other sounds as well.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50Police sirens? So you think I'd be interested in investing
0:38:50 > 0:38:51in something...
0:38:53 > 0:38:57..with regards to police sirens and horns?
0:38:57 > 0:39:00That's kind of the main focus of the investment we are trying to get out
0:39:00 > 0:39:01- of.- Listen, guys, I'm not a mug.
0:39:04 > 0:39:05You can't come in here,
0:39:05 > 0:39:08pitch the very thing that you are selling and then say,
0:39:08 > 0:39:10"By the way,
0:39:10 > 0:39:12"the IP sits over here."
0:39:12 > 0:39:15You're just asking me to invest in a distributor.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18I think the way you are viewing the whole concept
0:39:18 > 0:39:20of the company structure itself...
0:39:20 > 0:39:23Because what we are trying to do over in that company
0:39:23 > 0:39:25is to be able to develop just the technology.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27Here, what we're trying to do is develop a market.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29No, I DO understand that.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32You've got a company, develop the technology,
0:39:32 > 0:39:34which is the value,
0:39:34 > 0:39:37and you now need to go and open up distribution channels
0:39:37 > 0:39:40to take that very thing, which is the technology,
0:39:40 > 0:39:42and distribute it around the world.
0:39:42 > 0:39:44I get it.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46I don't want to be a distributor, there's no value in it.
0:39:46 > 0:39:48I'd be a distributor without paying any money.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50I want to be in the holding company.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55Stalemate in the Den,
0:39:55 > 0:39:58as neither side shows any signs of relenting
0:39:58 > 0:40:01on their opposing points of view.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04Can Nick Jenkins stop this pitch from derailing?
0:40:07 > 0:40:09I can see how this is going to go, I put the money in,
0:40:09 > 0:40:13and obviously you've only got about 5% of your time to devote to the UK
0:40:13 > 0:40:15side because you've got Denmark and all the other countries,
0:40:15 > 0:40:18you've got the main company and all the other countries to look after.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20It's not a very attractive proposition.
0:40:22 > 0:40:26I love investing in people and going on that journey with them,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30side-by-side, but I am not interested in running a subsidiary.
0:40:32 > 0:40:34I really... The same as Peter,
0:40:34 > 0:40:36I don't see you really giving us any...
0:40:36 > 0:40:41- anywhere else to go.- At least for the next year to 18 months,
0:40:41 > 0:40:45we would not be expanding into any other market, other than the UK.
0:40:46 > 0:40:47That's nice.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51You don't want us to have a part of what you think is the valuable part,
0:40:51 > 0:40:55you are just offering us a little sales operation in the UK.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58It's just not terribly exciting, so I'm out.
0:41:00 > 0:41:04An underwhelmed Nick Jenkins is the first Dragon to reject the deal.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09And now Peter Jones has finally run out of patience.
0:41:11 > 0:41:15You want to offer somebody that has different 28 businesses,
0:41:15 > 0:41:18turnover of over a billion, with over 1,000 staff,
0:41:18 > 0:41:20that operates in about 170 countries,
0:41:20 > 0:41:23you want to try and basically offer me something
0:41:23 > 0:41:26that my ten-year-old would probably decline.
0:41:27 > 0:41:29And what's funny is the fact I don't really even know
0:41:29 > 0:41:33about the technology. I haven't even got there yet.
0:41:33 > 0:41:36So, guys, for the fact you are not even willing to discuss ownership in
0:41:36 > 0:41:38the technology, I have no interest
0:41:38 > 0:41:40in being another "me, too" distributor
0:41:40 > 0:41:42and joining you in your journey.
0:41:42 > 0:41:43So I'm out.
0:41:46 > 0:41:47Hackles raised,
0:41:47 > 0:41:51Peter Jones leaves the entrepreneurs in no doubt about his opinion
0:41:51 > 0:41:52of their investment proposal.
0:41:55 > 0:41:58And now Sarah Willingham is ready to show her hand.
0:42:00 > 0:42:04Guys, I think you are going to look back on this
0:42:04 > 0:42:07and I think you're going to realise how audacious it was
0:42:07 > 0:42:12to come in and ask for investment when the value sits somewhere else,
0:42:12 > 0:42:16and to kind of almost lord that value in front of us but say,
0:42:16 > 0:42:19"You can't have any of that." It just doesn't work like that.
0:42:19 > 0:42:22I really think you are going to have a moment of reflection afterwards
0:42:22 > 0:42:25where you think, "We had such a great opportunity
0:42:25 > 0:42:27"and we completely blew it."
0:42:27 > 0:42:30I'm really sorry, there's not a chance, I am definitely out.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38I think you've blown it. I'm not into technology,
0:42:38 > 0:42:41so I would definitely be your wrong Dragon.
0:42:41 > 0:42:42But I can tell you one thing,
0:42:42 > 0:42:45you will look back and say, "Mistake."
0:42:46 > 0:42:48I'm not going to invest and I'm out.
0:42:52 > 0:42:58Four Dragons have now categorically judged the proposition a nonstarter.
0:42:58 > 0:43:01And it's Deborah Meaden who's left to deliver the final verdict on the
0:43:01 > 0:43:05deal to distribute their sound detection technology.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10I do some work with hearing dogs for the deaf.
0:43:10 > 0:43:11So when you started talking, I thought,
0:43:11 > 0:43:14"Actually, this is..." You know, not everybody has a dog,
0:43:14 > 0:43:16so this is a really cool thing.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20But I can't... You've totally wiped me out.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23Totally wiped me out. You've done absolutely the wrong thing here.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27After, for example, the first year,
0:43:27 > 0:43:30we would be willing as well, because at that time,
0:43:30 > 0:43:31the first investment would be...
0:43:31 > 0:43:35Guys, you've structured it all wrong.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38I'm not going to... It's not going to happen.
0:43:38 > 0:43:40I'm out.
0:43:44 > 0:43:46Thank you.
0:43:46 > 0:43:51So it's game over for Juma and Anwar in a pitch that was anything but
0:43:51 > 0:43:55straightforward. They leave the Den with nothing but the sound of five
0:43:55 > 0:43:58disgruntled Dragons ringing in their ears.
0:44:01 > 0:44:02That was just bizarre.
0:44:02 > 0:44:06It's about as attractive as drinking milk three months past its date.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10I don't think we really regret what happened today.
0:44:10 > 0:44:12We can't change the company structure, it is how it is.
0:44:12 > 0:44:16At the end of the day, the Dragons have their opinion.
0:44:16 > 0:44:20I think they were trying to look at the bigger picture,
0:44:20 > 0:44:22but the UK could be the bigger picture.
0:44:30 > 0:44:32Our final entrepreneur in the Den tonight,
0:44:32 > 0:44:35Andrew Watmuff from Somerset,
0:44:35 > 0:44:37is one half of a fresh soup brand.
0:44:37 > 0:44:40He and his business body, Michael Beckett,
0:44:40 > 0:44:41love their product so much,
0:44:41 > 0:44:43they put their own names on the label.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46But while Michael is happy to appear on the packaging,
0:44:46 > 0:44:49appearing in front of the Dragons is rather less appetising.
0:44:54 > 0:44:56We are partners in crime, we're just not partners in crime today.
0:44:57 > 0:45:01Beckett is the chef and the genius behind the recipes
0:45:01 > 0:45:04and I do the sales and marketing, which is why it's just me.
0:45:06 > 0:45:10Will the foodie entrepreneur only do half the job,
0:45:10 > 0:45:13or will his solo performance blow the Dragons away?
0:45:22 > 0:45:24Hello there. My name is Andrew Watmuff,
0:45:24 > 0:45:26and I'm from Watmuff & Beckett,
0:45:26 > 0:45:28and we make delicious soups and risottos,
0:45:28 > 0:45:30and we are based in Somerset,
0:45:30 > 0:45:34here today to ask for £75,000 in return for a 10% stake
0:45:34 > 0:45:37in Watmuff & Beckett.
0:45:37 > 0:45:38It all started many years ago
0:45:38 > 0:45:41when a young Beckett began baking plasticine
0:45:41 > 0:45:43in his mum's kitchen,
0:45:43 > 0:45:45and a young Watmuff was pestering his grandpa
0:45:45 > 0:45:47for a ride on the farmer's tractor.
0:45:47 > 0:45:51A real passion for food and farming was born from an early age.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54Watmuff and Beckett first met at secondary school.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57Fast forward 20 years, and Watmuff & Beckett's soups
0:45:57 > 0:45:58and risottos can now be found
0:45:58 > 0:46:02at some of the UK's largest and most prestigious food retailers.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05Some of these include Whole Foods,
0:46:05 > 0:46:09Selfridge's, Ocado, and Asda.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12Watmuff & Beckett products are unique because of the way we use
0:46:12 > 0:46:15UK farm produce to ready sing through in the end product.
0:46:15 > 0:46:18The UK fresh soup market is worth 186 million.
0:46:18 > 0:46:20This is growing 15% year on year
0:46:20 > 0:46:23as consumers are increasingly turning to fresh soup
0:46:23 > 0:46:26because of its superior quality and taste.
0:46:26 > 0:46:28We've also developed a range of fresh risottos,
0:46:28 > 0:46:31which have now become 50% of our business.
0:46:31 > 0:46:32We've also developed relationships
0:46:32 > 0:46:35with a tried and tested manufacturing partner,
0:46:35 > 0:46:38who not only delivers us stringent quality standards,
0:46:38 > 0:46:41but is also capable of delivering a scale as and when required.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43I'd love you to try some Watmuff & Beckett soup and risotto.
0:46:43 > 0:46:46So I'll bring some over and we can see what you think.
0:46:49 > 0:46:51Hoping the Dragons will be bowled over
0:46:51 > 0:46:53by his gourmet soups and risottos
0:46:53 > 0:46:56is Somerset-based Andrew Watmuff.
0:46:56 > 0:47:00He is offering 10% of his fresh food business
0:47:00 > 0:47:03in return for a £75,000 investment.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05- TOUKER:- It's excellent.- It's lovely.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08Now Andrew has tickled the Dragons's taste buds,
0:47:08 > 0:47:11serial investor Deborah Meaden can't ignore the mystery
0:47:11 > 0:47:13of the missing entrepreneur.
0:47:16 > 0:47:20- We have the Watmuff in front of us, where's the Beckett?- OK, yes. Um...
0:47:20 > 0:47:23Please don't tell me you've fallen out and he's gone...
0:47:23 > 0:47:25No, no. Don't panic, no, no.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28You need to put a black line through Beckett and rebrand everything.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30Not at all, no. He's not one for the camera.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33He's a typical chef. He likes it behind-the-scenes,
0:47:33 > 0:47:36but really I was always tasked with the sales and marketing.
0:47:36 > 0:47:38And I think that's why we've got on so well, because we both have...
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Are you telling me he's bottled it?
0:47:41 > 0:47:42No, he didn't bottle it, no, no.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44So there is actually a Beckett?
0:47:44 > 0:47:46- Yes.- And you are still friends.
0:47:46 > 0:47:47Yes, best of friends.
0:47:47 > 0:47:49That's all I was getting at.
0:47:49 > 0:47:53Immediately, my first reaction, it comes across more of a sort of...
0:47:53 > 0:47:56You look like two cricketers rather than two foodies.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58It's a clothing brand name, rather than a food.
0:47:58 > 0:48:00Cos it's a bit of a mouthful, isn't it?
0:48:00 > 0:48:03I must go and get some of that Watmuff & Beckett soup.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05- Yes, yes.- In Asda.
0:48:07 > 0:48:08- Yes, sure.- It's weird.
0:48:08 > 0:48:12Yes, the passions behind the brand were why we named it our surnames,
0:48:12 > 0:48:15really, so my family history in farming
0:48:15 > 0:48:18and Michael's history as a chef,
0:48:18 > 0:48:20and his love of food, really.
0:48:20 > 0:48:23And so we saw those two great stories there,
0:48:23 > 0:48:24so we decided to use our names.
0:48:27 > 0:48:28For Peter Jones,
0:48:28 > 0:48:33the branding is more sportswear and suits than freshly made soups.
0:48:33 > 0:48:36But with a large supermarket chain already selling the range,
0:48:36 > 0:48:40Nick Jenkins is keen to find out more about what's driving sales.
0:48:43 > 0:48:44There's two aspects to this.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47One is, does the food tastes great? Which it does.
0:48:47 > 0:48:49Second thing is, what is it that's going to make me
0:48:49 > 0:48:52- take it off the shelf?- Well, our pea and mint soup, for example.
0:48:52 > 0:48:56This one here is the first red tractor soup in the UK.
0:48:56 > 0:48:59No-one else has ever done a red tractor chilled soup before.
0:48:59 > 0:49:00What's a red tractor soup?
0:49:00 > 0:49:03So, a red tractor assured means that it is UK farmed produce.
0:49:03 > 0:49:08So because we found a consistent supply of peas that the UK produce,
0:49:08 > 0:49:10then we are allowed to put that logo on.
0:49:10 > 0:49:14We've been in Asda for three years now, and we've hit, you know,
0:49:14 > 0:49:16their rate of sale that they've been asking for, we've...
0:49:16 > 0:49:18OK. And what sales are you doing in those doors?
0:49:18 > 0:49:22Last year, we turned over about 170,000 in Asda.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28- What does the next 12 months look like?- Yes, 2018,
0:49:28 > 0:49:31we've got a turnover of 1.1 million
0:49:31 > 0:49:37with a gross of 357,000.
0:49:37 > 0:49:42and a net profit of 135,000.
0:49:42 > 0:49:43Let me ask another question.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46What does the soup sell at compared with their own brand?
0:49:46 > 0:49:50That soup sells at around £2.20 to £2.30.
0:49:50 > 0:49:53You can buy a fresh soup like that for £1.
0:49:53 > 0:49:55It's the most expensive soup in Asda.
0:49:55 > 0:49:59Can it be produced at a price that means this can compete?
0:49:59 > 0:50:02- Are you confident in that? - Yes, yeah.
0:50:03 > 0:50:08A soupcon of fighting talk from the quietly confident entrepreneur.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11But despite his impressive projections,
0:50:11 > 0:50:12there is a key ingredient missing
0:50:12 > 0:50:15for food specialist Sarah Willingham.
0:50:20 > 0:50:22The thing that disappoints me the most
0:50:22 > 0:50:24is the reason why I would buy this,
0:50:24 > 0:50:28as a consumer, walking down that aisle in the supermarket,
0:50:28 > 0:50:31is the fact it's got no preservatives in it, no additives.
0:50:31 > 0:50:35There's nothing in this apart from fresh produce.
0:50:35 > 0:50:37Well, it's also gluten and wheat free as well.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39- So the whole range is... - Yes, but... I mean,
0:50:39 > 0:50:41there's a really small "gluten and wheat free," which...
0:50:43 > 0:50:45Fine, but, you know, great,
0:50:45 > 0:50:47but there is nothing about this packaging
0:50:47 > 0:50:50that would make me take it off the shelves.
0:50:50 > 0:50:54The things that sell well in the supermarket are when you
0:50:54 > 0:50:58know what they are going to be, because it just tells you here.
0:50:58 > 0:51:02It's not an investment for me, so I'm afraid I'm out, but good luck.
0:51:02 > 0:51:03Thanks, Sarah.
0:51:07 > 0:51:09It's an early exit for Sarah Willingham,
0:51:09 > 0:51:12convinced that Andrew's soups and risottos
0:51:12 > 0:51:14need a radical rebrand
0:51:14 > 0:51:16if they are going to compete in a mass market.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21And Deborah Meaden is also ready to take stock.
0:51:24 > 0:51:28I think it goes slightly too much towards novelty.
0:51:29 > 0:51:32To become a mainstream product,
0:51:32 > 0:51:37it needs to get just a little bit more serious, as in,
0:51:37 > 0:51:40this comes from a chef, I mean, a proper chef.
0:51:40 > 0:51:42We are the experts.
0:51:42 > 0:51:46These ingredients are solid through and through,
0:51:46 > 0:51:50we know where the peas were grown, and what I'm really worried about,
0:51:50 > 0:51:55Andrew, I think you're quite wedded to this, and I understand why.
0:51:55 > 0:51:58This has brought you the success so far.
0:51:58 > 0:52:02- Yes.- That's going to make it really hard for you to say, yes,
0:52:02 > 0:52:04but there's a bigger market out there.
0:52:05 > 0:52:09No, the premise behind the brand is that we want to grow it,
0:52:09 > 0:52:13we want more people to eat produce that is grown in this country,
0:52:13 > 0:52:16and people want to be able to go to a supermarket and buy something and
0:52:16 > 0:52:18they know it's from this country.
0:52:19 > 0:52:23I'm not totally convinced that you believe that.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26I do, totally. I do, totally.
0:52:26 > 0:52:29I do, totally. That's where my passion is.
0:52:29 > 0:52:33Yes, but I think there's things you're wedded to.
0:52:35 > 0:52:36- OK.- I'm out.- All right.
0:52:39 > 0:52:41The branding continues to bristle
0:52:41 > 0:52:44as Deborah Meaden becomes the second Dragon out.
0:52:46 > 0:52:47Will Peter Jones,
0:52:47 > 0:52:52who turned a Den's sauce investment into a supermarket staple,
0:52:52 > 0:52:54be prepared to take on the challenge?
0:52:57 > 0:52:59I think you've gone very elitist.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02And I think you've gone quite premium.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05- Right.- That means you've really restricted your market.
0:53:05 > 0:53:09And on top of that, if you want to build a major brand,
0:53:09 > 0:53:14Watmuff & Beckett could be perhaps your holding company.
0:53:14 > 0:53:15- Right. - Cos I know you love that name,
0:53:15 > 0:53:17and you are two friends that have come together.
0:53:17 > 0:53:19Perhaps that's the name of your business.
0:53:19 > 0:53:22I don't think it should be the name of your product.
0:53:22 > 0:53:25- Right.- Which means you're also into brand development.
0:53:25 > 0:53:29Which means that it needs serious capital.
0:53:29 > 0:53:33I mean, serious money, to make this and build it.
0:53:33 > 0:53:34OK.
0:53:36 > 0:53:39I'm clearly not your investor, I'm not the one you'd be looking for.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41So I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:53:44 > 0:53:45Andrew.
0:53:47 > 0:53:49We get a lot of people in the Den,
0:53:49 > 0:53:52and they go as far as Whole Foods and the specialists,
0:53:52 > 0:53:53and they can't go beyond.
0:53:53 > 0:53:55But you've taken it one step further.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58You've actually gone to Asda, it is very commendable.
0:53:58 > 0:54:03Yes, I mean, 95% of the UK groceries are bought in supermarkets.
0:54:03 > 0:54:05We couldn't ignore them as a customer.
0:54:05 > 0:54:08But at the end of the day, I think, am I the right Dragon for you?
0:54:10 > 0:54:12I don't think I am.
0:54:12 > 0:54:14It's not an area I'm good at.
0:54:14 > 0:54:17I don't think I'm going to add value to you.
0:54:17 > 0:54:19And for that reason, I'm not going to invest in you.
0:54:19 > 0:54:22- But you are very credible. - Thank you.- And I'm out.
0:54:26 > 0:54:28With four Dragons rejecting the deal,
0:54:28 > 0:54:31Andrew's pitch is in hot water,
0:54:31 > 0:54:33and only Nick Jenkins can bail him out.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37But it seems he's still chewing things over.
0:54:41 > 0:54:42You're underselling the story.
0:54:42 > 0:54:45How strong is this idea of using UK farm produce?
0:54:45 > 0:54:47That's what I'd love to do.
0:54:47 > 0:54:52I mean, I'd love to farm produce to put into a Watmuff & Beckett soup,
0:54:52 > 0:54:54that would be an absolute dream for me.
0:54:54 > 0:54:55You could definitely do more with that story.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58If you say, this could have represented the things that are
0:54:58 > 0:55:00really exciting about your business better...
0:55:00 > 0:55:02- Yes.- Then that would be helpful to hear.
0:55:02 > 0:55:04Yes. That is totally what I want to do.
0:55:04 > 0:55:07That's really what I want to get across.
0:55:07 > 0:55:08I totally agree with that.
0:55:11 > 0:55:13If it helps, I'm already regretting going out, Nick.
0:55:15 > 0:55:18But I have, and that's the rules of the Den, so...
0:55:23 > 0:55:26And I love the idea of small businesses that focus
0:55:26 > 0:55:28on UK farm produce.
0:55:30 > 0:55:32Do you know, I think I'm going to make you an offer.
0:55:32 > 0:55:35I'm going to make you an offer for all the money, but I'd need 20%,
0:55:35 > 0:55:36I'm afraid.
0:55:40 > 0:55:43- OK.- And the reason I say that is because a lot of businesses
0:55:43 > 0:55:45that get to where you are now
0:55:45 > 0:55:48and then they just don't get much further.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50There is a huge risk of that.
0:55:58 > 0:56:00With the percentages, would you, for example,
0:56:00 > 0:56:03if we got some turnover targets that I discussed,
0:56:03 > 0:56:05can I buy it back at the same price?
0:56:06 > 0:56:09If you got to those turnover targets,
0:56:09 > 0:56:12if you hit that 1.1 million figure, and more to the point,
0:56:12 > 0:56:14if you hit the profit figure,
0:56:14 > 0:56:15then...
0:56:17 > 0:56:18..I'd sell you back half the shares
0:56:18 > 0:56:20for the price I originally paid for them.
0:56:23 > 0:56:25Definitely. Thank you very much, Nick.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28- DEBORAH:- Brilliant!- Thank you.
0:56:28 > 0:56:31He may have had to give up twice as much of his company as he
0:56:31 > 0:56:33- wanted to...- Thank you.- Well done.
0:56:33 > 0:56:37But Watmuff heads back to Beckett with a new millionaire backer
0:56:37 > 0:56:39and a recipe for business success.
0:56:44 > 0:56:46I'm still waiting for my heart rate to drop.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49But I'm really excited, really pleased.
0:56:49 > 0:56:51- Well done, Nick.- I'm a bit jealous.
0:56:51 > 0:56:54Watmuff, Beckett and Jenkins. Quite a ring to it.
0:56:56 > 0:56:58Beckett is going to be really excited.
0:56:58 > 0:56:59"Souper" excited, should I say?
0:57:09 > 0:57:12The Den is certainly a place to keep a cool head,
0:57:12 > 0:57:15but tonight we've had some particularly emotional scenes.
0:57:15 > 0:57:20Tears, consternation from the Dragons and of course elation,
0:57:20 > 0:57:23restrained elation from Andrew Watmuff.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27Good luck to him and the elusive Michael Beckett in their new Dragon
0:57:27 > 0:57:32partnership, whatever they decide to call the company.
0:57:32 > 0:57:34Whoa!
0:57:34 > 0:57:36Don't help him up, don't help him up.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38Coming up next time...
0:57:38 > 0:57:42You've come in with the most ludicrous, ridiculous valuation.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44It's never going to happen.
0:57:44 > 0:57:48I think you've done great. I'm going to make you an offer.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50I don't think your branding is strong at all.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52Not terribly exciting, is it?
0:57:52 > 0:57:54- That's a genius idea.- Genius idea.
0:57:54 > 0:57:56- You are hired. - That is a genius idea.
0:57:56 > 0:57:57That's for free. That's Touker time.
0:57:57 > 0:58:00The quality of what you've put together is first class.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03As an ambassador for your brand, spot-on.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05You've heard a lot of good things said to you.
0:58:05 > 0:58:07I'm going to tell you what I think. I hate it.