0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight, on Dragons' Den...
0:00:08 > 0:00:09I could do all of this myself.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11- Yeah.- So I don't need you, then?
0:00:11 > 0:00:13This is not unique.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15You're in for a disaster.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18I think this is right up your alley.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21Is it cos I do that?
0:00:21 > 0:00:23SHE LAUGHS
0:00:25 > 0:00:27I think you have done a great job.
0:00:27 > 0:00:29So I'm going to make you an offer.
0:00:29 > 0:00:30I'll make you an offer.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32I'm also going to make you an offer.
0:00:33 > 0:00:34Give me an answer.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10Welcome to Dragons' Den.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12The Dragons have built empires by spotting
0:01:12 > 0:01:15great business opportunities,
0:01:15 > 0:01:16but here, only the entrepreneurs
0:01:16 > 0:01:20who can offer big returns will get a vital cash investment.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24The rest will walk away with nothing.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30First to face the fire of the Dragons
0:01:30 > 0:01:33is French entrepreneur Sylvain Preumont...
0:01:35 > 0:01:38..who believes he has a mini product with maximum potential.
0:01:41 > 0:01:45So, the first reaction most people have is they find it amazing.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47They find it so surprising.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50They have a feeling of, "Hey, the future is now."
0:01:50 > 0:01:54But will the Dragons see a future in his business idea?
0:02:00 > 0:02:02Is that me?
0:02:02 > 0:02:03No, that's him.
0:02:03 > 0:02:04It's him.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16Hi, Dragons. My name is Sylvain Preumont.
0:02:16 > 0:02:23I'm here today to offer you 15% of my company in return for £80,000.
0:02:23 > 0:02:28Mini You is the ultimate selfie and you know how people
0:02:28 > 0:02:31love selfies these days.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33So, how does this work?
0:02:33 > 0:02:39Well, people come in our 3-D scanning booths, they get scanned,
0:02:39 > 0:02:44they get taken 60 pictures, each and every angle, all at once,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47and then our technology analysed those pictures,
0:02:47 > 0:02:51stitched them together for 3-D printing.
0:02:51 > 0:02:56We can do it in chocolate, metal, we call it scandle,
0:02:56 > 0:02:58which is basically a candle.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01We have done that for years.
0:03:01 > 0:03:04We have partnered with Selfridges,
0:03:04 > 0:03:08Harvey Nichols and also with Le Bon Marche in Paris
0:03:08 > 0:03:13and with your investment, what I want to do is to spin off
0:03:13 > 0:03:17that business from my current company into a dedicated company.
0:03:17 > 0:03:21So, I will definitely welcome your questions, but before that,
0:03:21 > 0:03:24I wanted to show you what we're talking about more closely.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30An intriguing pitch from London-based Sylvain Preumont...
0:03:30 > 0:03:31You get one.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34..who wants a sizeable £80,000 investment to help launch a
0:03:34 > 0:03:41new miniature model business. In return, he's offering a 15% stake.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43- Chocolate?- Yes, absolutely.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47No, don't tell me. Scandle?
0:03:47 > 0:03:51Online innovator Nick Jenkins may have made his fortune
0:03:51 > 0:03:53in the personalised greeting cards business,
0:03:53 > 0:03:57but will he see similar potential in Sylvain's statue selfies?
0:04:00 > 0:04:03What kind of a person wants a statue of themselves?
0:04:04 > 0:04:07Because I don't want a statue of myself.
0:04:07 > 0:04:09I mean, God, you know, I don't even like having my photograph taken,
0:04:09 > 0:04:11let alone a statue.
0:04:11 > 0:04:14That would be an ugly thing to have on my desk.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16I mean, I'd be mortified if anyone gave me a statue.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Yeah, but some people might want that of you.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21The market of people who want a statue of me is small.
0:04:21 > 0:04:22Take that from me.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27I'm concerned about the market.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30A lot of people would have maybe the same reaction as yourself.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33"Oh, I don't want to see myself like that."
0:04:33 > 0:04:36But a lot of people think the exact opposite.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39"I want that, that's cool, that's different, that's new."
0:04:39 > 0:04:42We've seen people returning and doing another one and we have been
0:04:42 > 0:04:50successfully producing almost 2,000 of them, selling for £150.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53People come and do that for special events in life,
0:04:53 > 0:04:55when they are, maybe, pregnant
0:04:55 > 0:04:58because they want to remember what they were at that moment.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00OK. This is very clever, by the way.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04- It is.- Thank you.- I mean, I'm very impressed with the printing of it.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07The colour, less so. But the actual accuracy is fantastic.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13The entrepreneur believes there's a demand for his lifelike miniatures.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16Now, Touker Suleyman wants to understand
0:05:16 > 0:05:19how his 3-D printing business works.
0:05:21 > 0:05:23- Who owns the scanner?- Me.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26- You own the scanner?- Well, the company, yeah.- The company.
0:05:26 > 0:05:28Whoever invests, does the scanner come into it
0:05:28 > 0:05:31- or that's a separate business? - No, of course.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34When I will spin off and create that new company,
0:05:34 > 0:05:36I will put in everything I have.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39When you say "spin off", I mean, you have another company as well?
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Yeah, at the moment, I make the logo you see here
0:05:42 > 0:05:44is the company I'm running for, like, the last three years,
0:05:44 > 0:05:46selling 3-D printers.
0:05:46 > 0:05:48What's the turnover of that company?
0:05:48 > 0:05:52That company, I mean, I'm not into offering that company.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55No, but if I'm investing in you, I just want to know.
0:05:55 > 0:05:56It's not that big.
0:05:56 > 0:06:01It has a physical store and it has a website selling 3-D printers.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04Related to Mini You would be put in there...
0:06:04 > 0:06:06You're not answering my question.
0:06:06 > 0:06:07I'm sorry, but this is bizarre.
0:06:07 > 0:06:09Really?
0:06:09 > 0:06:14- You've got a company that has a printing business...- Yes.- ..for 3-D.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18You're selling the printing capability to do this.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21You're offering us nothing because, basically,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24I could go to your company tomorrow, buy the printer,
0:06:24 > 0:06:28hire somebody for £40,000 and own 100% of the company.
0:06:28 > 0:06:31But the printer that you need to do THIS is not one of those
0:06:31 > 0:06:32that I sell.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35The printer you need to do this costs £70,000.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38- Yeah.- It's a different type of thing.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Yeah, but you're asking me for 80,000 for 15%.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45- Of a business...- Of a business that doesn't yet exist.
0:06:45 > 0:06:47So I could still buy the printer myself.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49I could do all of this myself.
0:06:49 > 0:06:50Yeah, technically.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53Yeah, that's great, but thanks for telling me. So I don't need you, then, now.
0:06:56 > 0:07:00The revelation that anyone can own the 3-D technology manufacturing
0:07:00 > 0:07:04Sylvain's models raises a red flag in the Den.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07He's already been reluctant to answer a question
0:07:07 > 0:07:10about the turnover of his printing company.
0:07:10 > 0:07:15Now, Deborah Meaden wants transparency on the model business
0:07:15 > 0:07:16he's here to pitch.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19Can I just understand the profile of your sales.
0:07:19 > 0:07:21So, you've had three years.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23- Yes.- And what was your profit?
0:07:24 > 0:07:27The problem is it's not easy for me to give you an answer for that
0:07:27 > 0:07:30because, as you understand, it was not a separate business,
0:07:30 > 0:07:32it was part of an existing business, so...
0:07:32 > 0:07:34Yeah, but for you to... When you separate a business out,
0:07:34 > 0:07:37you've got to be able to say that is the value of the business
0:07:37 > 0:07:40- that I am separating out.- OK.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42That's all I'm asking you.
0:07:42 > 0:07:44This is not a trick question.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47It's not even... Well, it shouldn't be a difficult question.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51I have generated in the past three years, that's your question?
0:07:51 > 0:07:53Um, let's say...
0:07:56 > 0:07:58..anywhere between £50,000 and £100,000.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00I'm not, I'm not...
0:08:00 > 0:08:02You can't throw your arms in the air and say...
0:08:02 > 0:08:03- No, sorry...- "..well, maybe between
0:08:03 > 0:08:05"£50,000 and £100,000." Give me an answer.
0:08:07 > 0:08:12The best guess I can give you is probably 50,000 over the past.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15£50,000 over three years or £50,000 a year?
0:08:16 > 0:08:20- Over the three years... - So, 15,000, 16,000 a year?
0:08:20 > 0:08:23To be fair, I don't want to...
0:08:23 > 0:08:24That was incredibly painful.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27- Sorry about that.- What you're basically saying is it generates
0:08:27 > 0:08:30- £15,000 to £16,000 profit a year? - Yeah.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36Sylvain's on a collision course with Deborah Meaden over how turnover is
0:08:36 > 0:08:39split between sales of his scanning business
0:08:39 > 0:08:41and sales of his 3-D models.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44There's nothing that exasperates the Dragons more
0:08:44 > 0:08:46than an entrepreneur who is unclear about what
0:08:46 > 0:08:49he's bringing to the table.
0:08:49 > 0:08:51But now there's some clarity on the numbers,
0:08:51 > 0:08:56can Sarah Willingham find a moneymaking opportunity in Mini You?
0:08:58 > 0:09:00So you own scanner, you don't own the printer,
0:09:00 > 0:09:02you don't own any technology.
0:09:02 > 0:09:08You are selling the idea of us to invest in a business which has a
0:09:08 > 0:09:11relationship with Selfridges, Harvey Nicks and Le Bon Marche?
0:09:12 > 0:09:15That's it currently?
0:09:15 > 0:09:18Yeah. Plus all the... Yeah.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20Is that worth the additional £500,000
0:09:20 > 0:09:22that you've put on the valuation?
0:09:22 > 0:09:24Um, that's what I believe.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28But what I think and the reason why I'm here today is because with your
0:09:28 > 0:09:30expertise, your network, your marketing,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33and my technical expertise and experience, together,
0:09:33 > 0:09:34that makes something that works.
0:09:34 > 0:09:37But, Sylvain, I think you've just explained why WE add
0:09:37 > 0:09:39half a million pounds worth of value.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41I'm not entirely sure why YOU add half a million pounds
0:09:41 > 0:09:45worth of value, because you've just explained exactly what this
0:09:45 > 0:09:48business needs, which is with us, pointing to one of us,
0:09:48 > 0:09:49- with our expertise...- Yeah, uh-huh.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51..and our marketing and our exposure
0:09:51 > 0:09:53and all the things we can bring.
0:09:53 > 0:09:57So, what I do is I make that happen.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00You make what happen? You get our money?
0:10:00 > 0:10:03- Yeah, you...- The added value is coming from THIS side of the room,
0:10:03 > 0:10:05not THAT side of the room.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11So I'm really sorry, Sylvain, but I won't be investing, I'm out.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Summary dismissal from a damning Deborah Meaden.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21Will the rest of the Den give a deal equally short shrift?
0:10:25 > 0:10:30I don't believe that selling portraits of yourself
0:10:30 > 0:10:36on 3-D printing is a business that I think warrants two people.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38If you want to make this into a larger scale,
0:10:38 > 0:10:39I don't think it's viable.
0:10:39 > 0:10:41For that reason, I'm out.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46I'm going to tell you where I am, very quickly.
0:10:46 > 0:10:52I can't see, I can't get past where the real value in the business lies.
0:10:52 > 0:10:53So, I'm out.
0:10:55 > 0:10:59Sarah Willingham joins Touker Suleyman in walking away
0:10:59 > 0:11:00from an investment.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04Will gifting supremo, Nick Jenkins,
0:11:04 > 0:11:08be any more willing to put his money into Sylvain's models?
0:11:11 > 0:11:14With a lot of personalised things, it can all be done over the internet
0:11:14 > 0:11:16because we have photographs.
0:11:16 > 0:11:17We have photographs that contain memories
0:11:17 > 0:11:19and it's all about memories.
0:11:19 > 0:11:24And with the 3-D scanning thing, it's just about me.
0:11:24 > 0:11:28And I have a real issue with the size of the market
0:11:28 > 0:11:32because it strips away the most important thing about
0:11:32 > 0:11:34personalised goods, which is it's about
0:11:34 > 0:11:38bringing back memories and you can't recreate that in a scanning booth.
0:11:38 > 0:11:43So, I'm afraid, for that reason, funky though I think this is,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46it's too limited to invest in, so I'm out.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50Four Dragons out.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Only Peter Jones remains.
0:11:55 > 0:11:57Can he set aside his earlier concerns
0:11:57 > 0:12:00to form a printing partnership?
0:12:01 > 0:12:04I have a slightly different view to Nick.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06- You'd love one of those. - I'd love one of those of myself.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10I'd like one of you too, Peter.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12And I know a few other people that would too.
0:12:12 > 0:12:13- Four at least.- No.
0:12:13 > 0:12:18But I'm sitting here as an owner of a photography business, thinking...
0:12:18 > 0:12:22- I know.- ..I wonder if that sort of thing, low cost of entry,
0:12:22 > 0:12:25trial in a few stores, we could put, sort of,
0:12:25 > 0:12:29a photo-booth-style scanner in the stores and see whether
0:12:29 > 0:12:30it would work.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32And that's very much what I was looking for.
0:12:32 > 0:12:33- Exactly.- Yeah.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37But the issue to me is, actually, it's more about you.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42- OK.- You invest in an idea with the person and what you've done is,
0:12:42 > 0:12:45you've said you bring more to the party Dragon
0:12:45 > 0:12:48and I think that's where you went wrong today.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52And that's the reason why I'm not going to invest and say I'm out.
0:12:53 > 0:12:56- Merci, au revoir.- Thank you.
0:12:57 > 0:13:02Peter Jones's final refusal sees Sylvain exit with nothing.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06His complex business structure failing to win over the Dragons.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11They wanted those numbers, I didn't want to give them the numbers.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13You know...
0:13:13 > 0:13:17Then it got worse and worse and then it's very hard to go back from the
0:13:17 > 0:13:20bottom up when you've done so bad in the beginning.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37Next up are Londoners Sarah Sleightholm and Beth Chilton.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39Good luck, girl.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44The pair are pitching their fledgling fashion business
0:13:44 > 0:13:47and have designs on one Dragon in particular,
0:13:47 > 0:13:49global clothing tycoon, Touker Suleyman.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51I think we're after a bit of Touker time.
0:13:51 > 0:13:54I think just because of his great manufacturing contacts,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57I think he'll really get our product and understand our product
0:13:57 > 0:14:00and probably be the Dragon that can identify with our business the best.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42Hello, Dragons, my name's Sarah and this is my business partner, Beth.
0:14:42 > 0:14:47We're here today to pitch for 78,000 in return for 15%
0:14:47 > 0:14:49of our company, Iveson & Sage.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51With a combined 13 years' experience between Sarah and I
0:14:51 > 0:14:55in the fashion industry, we really noticed two emerging gaps within the
0:14:55 > 0:14:58high street market, one being that there's no brand or retailer
0:14:58 > 0:15:01solely focusing on fashionable, yet affordable workwear.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03So we created Alter.
0:15:03 > 0:15:06And Alter is a range of, kind of, trend pieces ranging from, like,
0:15:06 > 0:15:09shirts to blazers, to trousers, to jumpsuits,
0:15:09 > 0:15:12all with that little fashion edge to it to bring it to life.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15And the other, that no occasion-wear brand is really focusing
0:15:15 > 0:15:17on beautifully embroidered pieces.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20Hope & Ivy is a brand I've always dreamed of creating,
0:15:20 > 0:15:22especially with my passion for print and embroidery.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26We started our business in October of last year and within four weeks
0:15:26 > 0:15:31we had our first order of £130,000 with online retailer ASOS.
0:15:31 > 0:15:35That was swiftly followed by a second order of £120,000,
0:15:35 > 0:15:37again with ASOS.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39It's been five months since our first orders went in and
0:15:39 > 0:15:41it's been a complete whirlwind.
0:15:41 > 0:15:45And since then we've grossed £530,000 worth of sales and
0:15:45 > 0:15:47we're currently at about a 28% profit margin with that.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51And then to top it off, Next and Lipsy are now really interested
0:15:51 > 0:15:54in taking on Alter for the autumn/winter season.
0:15:54 > 0:15:58So, that's a little snapshot of us and our brands and we welcome you
0:15:58 > 0:16:00to come and have a look at the product if you want.
0:16:02 > 0:16:06A model pitch from Sarah Sleightholm and Beth Chilton, who are seeking
0:16:06 > 0:16:11£78,000 for a 15% stake in their profitable fashion range.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14Beautiful.
0:16:14 > 0:16:15Mmm, beautiful.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17Deborah and Sarah, I know that, you know...
0:16:17 > 0:16:19I'm shopping. I'm just going to try... Have you got this in a...?
0:16:19 > 0:16:22LAUGHTER
0:16:22 > 0:16:23It's lovely.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26A positive early reaction to the product from Deborah Meaden
0:16:26 > 0:16:28and Sarah Willingham.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30Thanks, girls. Thank you.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33But will the business be on trend for Peter Jones?
0:16:37 > 0:16:39When you first came in and I saw this, I have to say,
0:16:39 > 0:16:44- I thought they were quite dour colours was my first impression. - Yeah.
0:16:44 > 0:16:48And then you started taking through the figures of the business
0:16:48 > 0:16:51and it's outstanding, the success you've had so quickly.
0:16:51 > 0:16:52- Thank you.- Thank you.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55Half a million pounds in just five months.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Can I firstly know a little bit more about your backgrounds?
0:16:58 > 0:17:00- SARAH:- Well, I studied fashion at uni
0:17:00 > 0:17:05and then I worked at ASOS for three years.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08- BETH:- My degree was in fashion management, and then from there
0:17:08 > 0:17:11I went to Top Shop, went to a kind of start-up brand
0:17:11 > 0:17:13and that's where we met.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17We just went, "You know what? If we don't do it now, we'll never do it.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19"And if we're going to do it, we're going to go
0:17:19 > 0:17:22"as fast as possible and get it, and achieve as high as we can."
0:17:24 > 0:17:27The figures are a fit for Peter Jones.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30Now, Sarah Willingham wants to get to grips with how they plan
0:17:30 > 0:17:32to spend their investment.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37Why 78? It's quite a specific number.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40It's basically to help put a bit more money into the cash flow
0:17:40 > 0:17:42and then help with like overheads and then we want to start
0:17:42 > 0:17:44a bit of marketing.
0:17:44 > 0:17:46It would be good to spend about £28,000 on marketing -
0:17:46 > 0:17:49but when we say marketing, in our industry it's all about bloggers.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52You know, bloggers are bigger than celebrities, and if you get
0:17:52 > 0:17:54the right bloggers on Instagram, that girls love to follow,
0:17:54 > 0:17:57we need to just capture the bloggers that the girls like.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59OK, so that's the idea of growing the brand,
0:17:59 > 0:18:03- you become known for who you are and people come direct to your website to do it?- Yeah.- Yes.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08So far, the entrepreneurs haven't put a foot wrong.
0:18:08 > 0:18:13Impressive turnover and those all-important industry credentials.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17But the fashion forward talk has left greetings card guru
0:18:17 > 0:18:20Nick Jenkins feeling out on a limb.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24Now, actually, I have to say, it looks like you've done a great job
0:18:24 > 0:18:27of setting up a really good business but I just have no knowledge of
0:18:27 > 0:18:31this sector whatsoever, so I'm afraid I... I know what you want
0:18:31 > 0:18:34is experience and I can't really offer that in this case,
0:18:34 > 0:18:36- but wish you all the best of luck, but I'm out.- OK, thank you.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40- That was quick, wasn't it? - That was really quick.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42LAUGHTER
0:18:42 > 0:18:43To the point.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50A swift exit from Nick Jenkins, citing lack of industry insight.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54But it's the Dragon with the global fashion form who Sarah and Beth
0:18:54 > 0:18:56set out to impress.
0:18:58 > 0:19:00- Hi.- Hi.- I know a little bit about clothing.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02Yep, we've heard.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05I'm a retailer, I'm a manufacturer.
0:19:05 > 0:19:10We fabric source, we do everything, so I know all the pitfalls.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12You've got lots of energy.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14You're very credible.
0:19:14 > 0:19:16You've got one customer.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19You've got ASOS as your main customer.
0:19:19 > 0:19:23So, your biggest risk, at the moment, is your relationship that
0:19:23 > 0:19:29you've got with a particular buyer, and if, for instance,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32- that buyer gets moved on to another department...- Yep.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34..you're in trouble.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Retail is very tough at the moment.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39It's very tough out there.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44It's the worst retail period the industry has known for 40 years.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48This is not unique.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50I think you've been lucky up to now.
0:19:53 > 0:19:58A shock reaction from the textile tycoon, who is underwhelmed by their
0:19:58 > 0:20:02designs and critical of their customer base.
0:20:02 > 0:20:06Has it left Peter Jones questioning his earlier optimism?
0:20:07 > 0:20:09Touker's been in this game for a long time,
0:20:09 > 0:20:11probably most of his adult life.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14What I heard him saying was that you haven't done very well and actually
0:20:14 > 0:20:16anybody could do this.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18- But I didn't hear you defend yourself...- Erm, no...
0:20:18 > 0:20:20..and you were almost accepting of it and I was shocked.
0:20:20 > 0:20:22No, I think I was just, kind of...
0:20:22 > 0:20:24- Well, we wouldn't be here if we didn't believe...- In what we do.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27We wouldn't have come to you guys if we feel that we are selling a
0:20:27 > 0:20:29product that's not worthy of being sellable.
0:20:29 > 0:20:32We know that it's sellable. People want it. They want it now.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34- DEBORAH:- I don't think it was lucky.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36If anybody's going to make this business work,
0:20:36 > 0:20:39you've got all the staff inside it who can do it, so, you know,
0:20:39 > 0:20:40I don't think it's luck.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43So, I'm going to ask you a different question.
0:20:43 > 0:20:47What's your, you know, who do you want to roll out to?
0:20:47 > 0:20:48I always say, I always want the top...
0:20:48 > 0:20:51The top six people, we're gunning for next.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53- Yeah.- I want that list on that wall,
0:20:53 > 0:20:56because we should be working our way through it. So what's your plan?
0:20:56 > 0:20:58We wanted Lipsy and we got into Lipsy.
0:20:58 > 0:20:59- BETH:- And Next.
0:20:59 > 0:21:01And Next. And then, I think, Very.
0:21:01 > 0:21:05- BETH:- And then maybe even looking at the higher end of the market, maybe even like Net-a-Porter.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09And then even looking internationally. Retailers like Zalando, like Nelly.
0:21:09 > 0:21:13Like, Nasty Girl would love all the embroidered kind of pieces.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16We just want to create two amazing, amazing brands.
0:21:18 > 0:21:22The fashion industry duo deftly deal with Deborah Meaden.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25But it appears they have a long way to go before
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Touker Suleyman is satisfied.
0:21:30 > 0:21:31You're not focused.
0:21:31 > 0:21:33You've got two brands there.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36You're going to double your costs of marketing.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38You're going to double your costs of website.
0:21:38 > 0:21:39You're going to double all your costs.
0:21:39 > 0:21:44You're a start-up and already you're stretching yourselves very wide.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48You're better off focusing on one brand.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50I don't know how we can stop something that's doing so well,
0:21:50 > 0:21:54so that's why we really just want both, and they are both succeeding so well.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57OK, I've seen it before and, to me,
0:21:57 > 0:22:00two brands, two websites,
0:22:00 > 0:22:02you're in for a disaster.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08The blows just keep on coming,
0:22:08 > 0:22:11as Touker Suleyman makes another damning assessment
0:22:11 > 0:22:14of Beth and Sarah's business.
0:22:14 > 0:22:19Will the retail tycoon's criticism exert any influence over fellow
0:22:19 > 0:22:21high street magnate Peter Jones?
0:22:24 > 0:22:27I... This is very, very difficult.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30- Touker's made some really good points, hasn't he?- Yeah.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33He knows the industry really well, so those sort of points have
0:22:33 > 0:22:34a major influence on me.
0:22:34 > 0:22:35Of course.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41I was waiting to see whether he's being cleverly tactical
0:22:41 > 0:22:43by just talking and it's just noise...
0:22:43 > 0:22:44And putting us off.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46..and then putting us off.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49But regardless, we are clearly all individuals
0:22:49 > 0:22:51and we make our own decisions.
0:22:51 > 0:22:54I have a business. I don't know if... Have you heard of Farrell
0:22:54 > 0:22:57- or come across Farrell with Robbie Williams?- Yeah.- Yeah.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59I own half of that company.
0:22:59 > 0:23:02We sell millions and millions of pounds worth of product.
0:23:02 > 0:23:07And it's the most successful brand in Primark.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Oh, wow.
0:23:09 > 0:23:15Even with what Touker is saying, if I invest, could I make a difference?
0:23:15 > 0:23:19And could I do almost what Touker is describing as potentially impossible
0:23:19 > 0:23:21and help you turn this into a great business?
0:23:24 > 0:23:25I think I can.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29Wow, thank you.
0:23:29 > 0:23:32So I'm going to make you an offer, because I think you have done
0:23:32 > 0:23:34a great job.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38So, I'm going to offer you all of the money
0:23:38 > 0:23:40for 25% of the business.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46Peter Jones's revelation of a stake in a profitable high-street clothing
0:23:46 > 0:23:48range wrong-foots Touker Suleyman.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52He's offering all of the money,
0:23:52 > 0:23:56but for 10% more equity than the entrepreneurs wanted to give away.
0:23:57 > 0:24:01Is Sarah Willingham poised to up the ante?
0:24:02 > 0:24:06Similarly, Touker hasn't completely put me off.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08I mean, I've heard everything he is said and thought,
0:24:08 > 0:24:11but look at the last five months! It's bloody brilliant!
0:24:11 > 0:24:13Hopefully, he's throwing a red herring. I don't know.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15I mean, it's really, really good.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17So, I am also going to make you an offer.
0:24:19 > 0:24:24And I'd be very happy to split it with another Dragon.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27I'll make you an offer for all of the money for 25%,
0:24:27 > 0:24:31but as soon as you can pay that money back,
0:24:31 > 0:24:37I'm very happy to drop back down to 15% that you originally
0:24:37 > 0:24:39came in and asked for.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41Wow. Thank you.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45Sarah Willingham joins Peter Jones
0:24:45 > 0:24:48in dismissing Touker Suleyman's steer,
0:24:48 > 0:24:51offering the entrepreneurs a buy-back deal that matches
0:24:51 > 0:24:54their preferred 15% stake.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58Deborah Meaden has yet to declare her hand.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Will she raise the stakes even higher?
0:25:04 > 0:25:08I do not pretend to compete with the knowledge to my right
0:25:08 > 0:25:11or even Peter's more recent knowledge.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14I can bring in the fashion expertise, but I won't pretend
0:25:14 > 0:25:17to have the same set-up that these guys have got.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21So, for that, I'm going to offer you all of the money
0:25:21 > 0:25:23for 20% of the business.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25- OK. Thank you.- OK.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27Oh, and I'm happy to share.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32A collection of deals to choose from.
0:25:32 > 0:25:36But it's the Dragon with over 40 years' experience in global retail
0:25:36 > 0:25:39Beth and Sarah came to bag.
0:25:39 > 0:25:44So far, he's lambasted their labels and bashed their business model.
0:25:44 > 0:25:49Time to find out if he's been playing the Den all along.
0:25:52 > 0:25:53OK.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58Um... I know what's involved. I know what you need.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02And it's going to take a lot of time, a lot of energy,
0:26:02 > 0:26:04to make this into a proper business.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07I think that 78 grand is not going to go very far.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20I'll make you an offer for all the money, but I want 40%.
0:26:23 > 0:26:26Strategic play from Touker Suleyman.
0:26:26 > 0:26:30Finally, the entrepreneurs get an offer from the Dragon they came for.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33But his expertise comes at a cost.
0:26:33 > 0:26:3640% of the business.
0:26:36 > 0:26:41Will this ultimately be too high a price to pay for the design duo?
0:26:42 > 0:26:45Shall we go and do the thinking at the back of the room?
0:26:45 > 0:26:49- Do you want to chat?- Yeah. Can we?
0:26:53 > 0:26:54Oh, my God.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58It's a tough call.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01Four Dragons at Sarah and Beth's disposal.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04Sarah Willingham's offering 78,000
0:27:04 > 0:27:07for a 25% stake and a buy-back deal.
0:27:07 > 0:27:11I think to see if Deborah and Peter will split.
0:27:11 > 0:27:15Deborah Meaden wants 20% of the business for the same cash.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18And Peter Jones offers his own fashion expertise
0:27:18 > 0:27:21in exchange for 25% of the business.
0:27:21 > 0:27:25Considerably less than the 40% that high-street clothing magnate
0:27:25 > 0:27:27Touker Suleyman is seeking.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30Sorry.
0:27:31 > 0:27:32Let's discuss...
0:27:34 > 0:27:39So, we'd like to see if Peter, you'd go in with Deborah?
0:27:41 > 0:27:43At all, on the offer?
0:27:43 > 0:27:45And is that at my 25%?
0:27:45 > 0:27:47So, 12.5% each?
0:27:47 > 0:27:50Yeah, and then, if we hit our targets, would you lower that
0:27:50 > 0:27:54to then 20% and when we repay you back your original investment?
0:27:54 > 0:27:56- So I'd end up with 10%?- Yeah.
0:27:59 > 0:28:04- To be clear, though, that would mean that I would give you half of the money for 12.5%?- Mm-hmm.
0:28:04 > 0:28:08And when I'd receive that money back, I would drop down to 10%,
0:28:08 > 0:28:09and likewise so would Deborah?
0:28:09 > 0:28:10Yeah.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14I would accept that offer if Deborah would.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16I'd be happy to. I'd be delighted to, actually.
0:28:16 > 0:28:18Thank you!
0:28:18 > 0:28:19- Brilliant!- Have we got a deal?
0:28:19 > 0:28:22- You've got a deal, yes. - Yay! Well done.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26- We do this now, we're in business together.- Thank you so much.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28- See you later.- See you later.
0:28:30 > 0:28:35Sarah and Beth exit the Den having deftly negotiated a competitive deal
0:28:35 > 0:28:38with not one, but two Dragons.
0:28:38 > 0:28:39Congratulations.
0:28:42 > 0:28:44Touker, I knew you were up to something.
0:28:44 > 0:28:46I knew you were going to make an offer.
0:28:46 > 0:28:48When Touker was kind of really questioning it, we were like, oh,
0:28:48 > 0:28:50maybe he doesn't believe in where we are today.
0:28:50 > 0:28:54Well done. However, there's a lot of work to be done.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56Sorry, I stopped at the "however".
0:28:56 > 0:28:58Whereas Peter and Deborah's reaction was just great.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01- Two Dragons.- Two Dragons. - For the price of one!- Yeah!
0:29:01 > 0:29:03So it's great.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17Also hoping for a lucrative outcome to his time in the Den
0:29:17 > 0:29:19was Rupert Evans from Norwich.
0:29:19 > 0:29:23He was convinced a Dragon would want to part with £40,000
0:29:23 > 0:29:27in exchange for 40% equity in his innovation
0:29:27 > 0:29:29for the stationery market.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32Fold-Ease is a patented,
0:29:32 > 0:29:35one-of-a-kind paper and card folding tool,
0:29:35 > 0:29:38which prevents friction burns and paper cuts.
0:29:38 > 0:29:40Fits comfortably on the finger or thumb,
0:29:40 > 0:29:44speeds up folding and creates a really neat crease line.
0:29:44 > 0:29:49Nick Jenkins was full of praise for the entrepreneur's attention to detail.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51You know what I love about this product?
0:29:51 > 0:29:54What I love about it is the fact that there is a hole for the nail
0:29:54 > 0:29:55that goes through. Brilliant.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57Brilliant. As demonstrated by... Look at that.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00What an absolute... That is genius.
0:30:00 > 0:30:03While Sarah Willingham was still getting to grips
0:30:03 > 0:30:06with the point of his product.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08This is to fold paper?
0:30:08 > 0:30:09Yeah.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13- It's ridiculous.- Yeah. Why?
0:30:13 > 0:30:17For people who want to create a better crease line.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21Say, for example, you're in a secretarial role or an admin role,
0:30:21 > 0:30:25like in the paper crafting industry, where that's important.
0:30:25 > 0:30:29Long-fingered Peter Jones was feeling a little left out.
0:30:29 > 0:30:30I can't even fit this properly on my finger,
0:30:30 > 0:30:32so it wouldn't be that good for me.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34Well, there are two sizes.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37But... You have not brought out two sizes of that?
0:30:37 > 0:30:38Yeah, there is a multi-size twin pack.
0:30:38 > 0:30:41You did not need to bring out two sizes. Trust me.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44But there was no easing off from Rupert,
0:30:44 > 0:30:47who was convinced he could appeal to the Dragon with the most famous
0:30:47 > 0:30:49fingers in finance.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51I think this is right up your alley.
0:30:53 > 0:30:55Is it because I do that?
0:30:58 > 0:31:01Well, to be fair, there's something rather pleasing about that.
0:31:01 > 0:31:05All of the Dragons failed to see the investment potential
0:31:05 > 0:31:07in Rupert's thimble folder.
0:31:07 > 0:31:10To have a pair of roller skates on the end of your fingers
0:31:10 > 0:31:14to fold paper is just plain stupid.
0:31:14 > 0:31:15- I'm out.- I'm afraid I'm out!
0:31:15 > 0:31:18I think this is... This could be a massive success. I really do.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20- I'm out.- I'm afraid I'm out.
0:31:20 > 0:31:23I'm going to let you keep that success to yourself.
0:31:23 > 0:31:25I'm not going to invest in you, Rupert. I'm out.
0:31:25 > 0:31:26OK. Thanks anyway.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33Still to come on tonight's show...
0:31:33 > 0:31:34Can I try it?
0:31:34 > 0:31:36Products revealed...
0:31:37 > 0:31:39..and finances concealed.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43Something is going to cost £1.7 million. What is it?
0:31:43 > 0:31:47We've managed a net loss of £75,000.
0:31:47 > 0:31:51I must be going mad. No, you had... No. You've got 100... In these figures you gave us...
0:31:51 > 0:31:54- So, you've now got 25,000 left. - Exactly.
0:31:54 > 0:31:56Will the Dragons do a deal?
0:31:57 > 0:31:59You guys are so backable.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01Pigs might fly, but I can't see you're going to get there.
0:32:03 > 0:32:06There's no way you want me in a family business.
0:32:06 > 0:32:08I'd ask you to fire your dad.
0:32:12 > 0:32:16Next into the Den, father and daughter John and Anneka Chauhan.
0:32:16 > 0:32:20They're here to pitch John's latest brainwave,
0:32:20 > 0:32:23which is all about solving a slippery problem
0:32:23 > 0:32:24we have with our bags.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27So, will the Dragons see any value in the invention,
0:32:27 > 0:32:31or will it just be excess baggage?
0:32:34 > 0:32:36My background is marketing
0:32:36 > 0:32:39and he's secretly an inventor.
0:32:39 > 0:32:43I'm sure he is, cos he doesn't come up with just one amazing idea.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46He's got four or five stuck in his pocket.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50His brain just works in a different way, I think.
0:32:52 > 0:32:56It's our combined strength that hopefully will win over the Dragons
0:32:56 > 0:32:59and make it into something that could be a global brand.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08Hello, Dragons. I'm Anneka Chauhan.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10I'm John Chauhan.
0:33:10 > 0:33:14And we're here asking for £50,000 for 10% equity in our brand i-stay.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17i-stay is a non-slip shoulder strap.
0:33:17 > 0:33:19It's a father and daughter innovation.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22The idea came about whilst we were travelling and experiencing
0:33:22 > 0:33:25our laptop bags slipping off our shoulder.
0:33:25 > 0:33:27It's comfortable.
0:33:27 > 0:33:28It allows airflow.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32And it has ergonomic benefits.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36To...
0:33:36 > 0:33:38Sorry. It has ergonomic benefits.
0:33:38 > 0:33:41It's a patent-pending design and it's been registered
0:33:41 > 0:33:43in many different countries.
0:33:43 > 0:33:47You can clip it into any bag that has D rings.
0:33:47 > 0:33:50There are many laptop bags on the market,
0:33:50 > 0:33:53but none of them have the unique strap that we have.
0:33:54 > 0:33:58The i-stay brand was launched in 2012, and in 2013,
0:33:58 > 0:34:02we managed to do £130,000 worth of turnover
0:34:02 > 0:34:06at a net loss of £75,000.
0:34:06 > 0:34:11In 2014, we did £240,000
0:34:11 > 0:34:13and a net loss of £22,000.
0:34:15 > 0:34:20In the year 15, we did £290,000,
0:34:20 > 0:34:22a net loss of 21,000.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25In the last six months,
0:34:25 > 0:34:29we've now managed to do £200,000 worth of turnover,
0:34:29 > 0:34:33and a net return of £20,000.
0:34:33 > 0:34:37With the investment money, we're looking to create brand awareness.
0:34:37 > 0:34:41We're also looking for your advice, guidance and expertise.
0:34:41 > 0:34:43Thank you for listening, we welcome any questions.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46- Can I try it?- Of course.- Yes.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49A luggage strap that stays put is the offering
0:34:49 > 0:34:53from father and daughter double act, Anneka and John Chauhan.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56- JOHN:- You have to lean quite a lot. - Yeah.
0:34:56 > 0:34:58- NICK:- Can I try it? - Of course.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02They're hoping a £50,000 investment, in return for 10% equity,
0:35:02 > 0:35:06will help keep their bag accessory business in the black.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08I kind of get where you're coming from.
0:35:08 > 0:35:14Touker Suleyman and Nick Jenkins seem satisfied it delivers on its promise to stay in place.
0:35:14 > 0:35:18But can the business deliver a profitable return for an investor?
0:35:19 > 0:35:21Sarah Willingham's first with the questions.
0:35:24 > 0:35:30I was sat here looking at that, thinking, you know,
0:35:30 > 0:35:32no-one's going to buy that because
0:35:32 > 0:35:36the straps on the bags are perfectly adequate.
0:35:36 > 0:35:38I've never had a problem with it before.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40Why would you put it on a rucksack?
0:35:40 > 0:35:42But you've sold a lot.
0:35:42 > 0:35:43- JOHN:- Yes.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46And, I must admit, that's really thrown me.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50This is a replacement bag strap, so if you have a bag you already like,
0:35:50 > 0:35:54you can just clip that in and use it for that purpose.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57But, if you want to purchase one of our bags, they all come
0:35:57 > 0:35:58with the i-stay straps.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01OK. So, in terms of your split of sales,
0:36:01 > 0:36:03now I'm not surprised that your sales are as high as that,
0:36:03 > 0:36:06- I thought you'd sold that many... - Just the straps.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09..replacement straps. I was like, "Wow!"
0:36:10 > 0:36:13So, the majority of your sales is actually in the range of bags?
0:36:13 > 0:36:15Yes, it is.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19Looking at your numbers, why is it you've made such a loss?
0:36:19 > 0:36:23I think initial investment was about £100,000 that we put in,
0:36:23 > 0:36:26so that played into the first year.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29Yes, but that wouldn't affect your net profit.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33Um...
0:36:33 > 0:36:35The stock, the...
0:36:35 > 0:36:39We have... Currently, we have something like £120,000
0:36:39 > 0:36:44of paid stock - that's at landed cost. And, initially,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47the way our accountant seems to have worked it out was to say,
0:36:47 > 0:36:51"Look, you've invested 100,000, you've put a lot of money into the
0:36:51 > 0:36:54"stock, wages, staff, etc."
0:36:54 > 0:36:56So all of that seemed to come into play.
0:36:58 > 0:37:04Three consecutive years of net losses aren't sitting easy with Sarah Willingham.
0:37:04 > 0:37:08Now, luxury accessory retailer Touker Suleyman has concerns
0:37:08 > 0:37:11about the baggage in their balance sheet.
0:37:13 > 0:37:17You said that your initial investment total was about 100,000?
0:37:17 > 0:37:18Yes.
0:37:18 > 0:37:22- And you've lost over the three or four years, about 120,000?- Yes.
0:37:22 > 0:37:24So, somewhere, you must owe somebody a lot of money?
0:37:24 > 0:37:27We don't actually. Everything is paid for.
0:37:27 > 0:37:30All the stock we have in the warehouse is literally paid for.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33But you said the business started with 100,000?
0:37:33 > 0:37:34Yes.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37And over the three years you've lost 120,000.
0:37:37 > 0:37:39So, you haven't made any money.
0:37:39 > 0:37:42Most of our money's sitting in stock at the moment.
0:37:42 > 0:37:43No, but I can't work that out.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47Am I not thinking straight? I don't know.
0:37:47 > 0:37:49Maybe it's me.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52The 100,000 that was invested. That's the question mark.
0:37:52 > 0:37:54The 100,000 is owed to Falcon.
0:37:54 > 0:37:56Oh, who's...? Ah, OK. Now you're saying...
0:37:56 > 0:37:57Sorry, my apologies.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59OK. So, who's Falcon?
0:37:59 > 0:38:02Falcon is the company that I own with my wife.
0:38:02 > 0:38:08- TOUKER:- So, basically, you have put in 200,000?
0:38:08 > 0:38:09100,000.
0:38:10 > 0:38:12- No.- That's what we put in.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15What Touker's trying to get across is that if you start a business
0:38:15 > 0:38:20on day one and you put £100,000 into it and over the course of the next three years
0:38:20 > 0:38:23you lose £121,000 in trading losses...
0:38:25 > 0:38:30..you can't then still have £120,000 worth of stock at the end of that,
0:38:30 > 0:38:32unless you owe money for the stock.
0:38:32 > 0:38:34Unless your figures are not right.
0:38:34 > 0:38:37You must have put £220,000 into it.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43Confusion reigns as Touker Suleyman and Nick Jenkins
0:38:43 > 0:38:47are forced to second-guess the accounts to get to the bottom
0:38:47 > 0:38:49of the company's year-on-year losses.
0:38:49 > 0:38:54Can Peter Jones get a handle on the Chauhan family business finances?
0:38:57 > 0:39:01Your first year, you put £100,000 in, your wife and yourself, yes?
0:39:01 > 0:39:04- Yes.- So, end of that year, how much money did you lose?
0:39:04 > 0:39:06The 75,000 in the first year.
0:39:06 > 0:39:07And how did you finance that loss?
0:39:15 > 0:39:19- JOHN:- Ah, must have been from our main business, from our Falcon business.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23- DEBORAH:- Hold on, I must be going mad. No, you've got 100... In these figures you gave us...
0:39:23 > 0:39:26- You've got 25,000. So you've now got 25,000 left.- Exactly, exactly.
0:39:26 > 0:39:28OK. So you've still got 25,000 left.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30What happened in the next year?
0:39:30 > 0:39:33We lost £22,000.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35So you've now got £3,000 left.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37What happened at the end of your third year?
0:39:37 > 0:39:40Third year we lost £20,000.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43How could you lose 20,000 when you've only got 3,000 left?
0:39:49 > 0:39:54We must have put more money in, Peter. We must have put more money in from Falcon.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58Finally, some clarity.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01But John's uncertainty as to how much money from his
0:40:01 > 0:40:04existing business has been pumped into this new one,
0:40:04 > 0:40:06hasn't done him any favours with Peter Jones.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12Will Deborah Meaden be any more understanding?
0:40:14 > 0:40:17Anneka, John, you've got your investor.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20- You are. - You are the natural investor.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24I don't know what's happened to you in the Den. You must be good at what you do,
0:40:24 > 0:40:27- you're running a successful business that's turning out a good profit, John.- Yes.
0:40:27 > 0:40:31So, I don't know what happened in the Den today, but you were unable
0:40:31 > 0:40:34to explain those finances which always makes us a little
0:40:34 > 0:40:37bit nervous, particularly with an experienced businessperson.
0:40:39 > 0:40:41I won't be investing. I'm out.
0:40:42 > 0:40:46It's an open and shut case for Deborah Meaden, who very quickly
0:40:46 > 0:40:48declines the opportunity to invest.
0:40:50 > 0:40:52Which way will Touker Suleyman go?
0:40:55 > 0:41:00There's no way you want me as a shareholder in the family business.
0:41:00 > 0:41:02I'd ask you to fire your dad or something,
0:41:02 > 0:41:04and you wouldn't want that.
0:41:04 > 0:41:05Or fire you.
0:41:05 > 0:41:08You used your father's overhead.
0:41:08 > 0:41:11Reduce your overheads, get back into a good profit,
0:41:11 > 0:41:13but do it as a family.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16- Yeah.- You don't need me.
0:41:16 > 0:41:17And I'm out.
0:41:17 > 0:41:18- Yeah. - JOHN:- Thank you.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23I think when there is such a closely-knit family,
0:41:23 > 0:41:28if I ever wanted to push something through, I would get nowhere.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32You would gather together and I would lose every single battle
0:41:32 > 0:41:35and it makes it very difficult for an outside investor,
0:41:35 > 0:41:38so I'm not going to invest. I'm out.
0:41:39 > 0:41:42Three Dragons have now declared themselves out.
0:41:42 > 0:41:46Nervous about the numbers and sceptical about investing in such
0:41:46 > 0:41:49a tightknit family enterprise.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52Only Nick Jenkins and Peter Jones remain.
0:41:53 > 0:41:57Can either of them be persuaded to help keep the business in the black?
0:41:59 > 0:42:03I think you've invented a great product and I'm sure you'll probably
0:42:03 > 0:42:05make 40,000 profit this year,
0:42:05 > 0:42:09maybe 100,000 profit the year after that, couple of 100,000 after that.
0:42:09 > 0:42:13So, I think there's a window of opportunity for you to make some money.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16After that, you might find that everyone else looks and thinks,
0:42:16 > 0:42:20"Hang on, why is this i-stay selling all these things?
0:42:20 > 0:42:22"Ah, we need to improve our strap."
0:42:22 > 0:42:26And then, suddenly, all the other manufacturers come up to the level of your game,
0:42:26 > 0:42:30so it's difficult as a long-term investment.
0:42:30 > 0:42:32So, I'm afraid, for that reason, I'm out.
0:42:32 > 0:42:33Thank you.
0:42:35 > 0:42:37What does Falcon, what does that turn over?
0:42:37 > 0:42:41Falcon turns over 1.75 million.
0:42:41 > 0:42:441.75 million. What did you make?
0:42:44 > 0:42:47We made about £120,000 profit.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51This business that you started three years ago,
0:42:51 > 0:42:53was this started by your daughter?
0:42:53 > 0:42:56- Erm, jointly.- Jointly. - It was both of us together.
0:42:56 > 0:43:00Yeah. But your dad lent you the money?
0:43:00 > 0:43:01Yes.
0:43:01 > 0:43:02- To start your business?- Yeah.
0:43:04 > 0:43:07I think it's fantastic.
0:43:08 > 0:43:12Father's helping daughter create a business.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17But...
0:43:17 > 0:43:18I'm very, very concerned.
0:43:20 > 0:43:23Neither of you know how to run a business. I'm amazed that, actually,
0:43:23 > 0:43:26- you've done incredibly well, Father...- Thank you.
0:43:26 > 0:43:28..to make that profit.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31This is ultimately a business to get your daughter on her journey,
0:43:31 > 0:43:33which I applaud, but I don't want to be part of that.
0:43:33 > 0:43:37Her next start of her journey should be doing it for herself,
0:43:37 > 0:43:40understanding how to run a company first, before launching one of your own.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45I think that you're too early. You don't know enough about business.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48So, that's the reason why I'm not going to invest and say that I'm out.
0:43:48 > 0:43:50Thank you.
0:43:52 > 0:43:53- Cheers.- Thanks. - JOHN:- Thank you.
0:43:53 > 0:44:01A clean sweep from the Dragons, as confusing family finances mean i-stay goes.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10We just let ourselves down on the numbers.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15But I still feel very positive, cos I know that we've got
0:44:15 > 0:44:20something unique. I know we've got a successful business already.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23We're still going to do it, just maybe at a slower pace.
0:44:30 > 0:44:32Here we go.
0:44:34 > 0:44:38Last into the Den, Nick Coleman and Andrew Allen...
0:44:38 > 0:44:41business partners with a modest streak.
0:44:42 > 0:44:46We have the value of being amazing, so in everything that we do,
0:44:46 > 0:44:49we try and make sure we're the absolute best at it.
0:44:49 > 0:44:51Tame you, going to tame you, going to tame you,
0:44:51 > 0:44:53going to tame you, going to tame you.
0:44:59 > 0:45:03I have prepared and prepared and prepared and we are ready for this
0:45:03 > 0:45:05and we are really excited.
0:45:05 > 0:45:07- WHISPERS:- Good luck.
0:45:14 > 0:45:15- Ready?- Ready.
0:45:15 > 0:45:18Hello, Dragons. I'm Nick and I am the founder and CEO
0:45:18 > 0:45:20of The Snaffling Pig Company.
0:45:20 > 0:45:24I'm here today with my business partner and marketing director, Andy...
0:45:24 > 0:45:25Hello.
0:45:25 > 0:45:29..and we are looking for a £70,000 investment for a 10% stake
0:45:29 > 0:45:32of our business, The Snaffling Pig.
0:45:33 > 0:45:35For the last five years,
0:45:35 > 0:45:38there's been a noticeable trend in the British food and drink culture.
0:45:38 > 0:45:41Beer has had a revolution in craft,
0:45:41 > 0:45:47burgers have gone gourmet and popcorn has even turned adventurous.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50All of these familiar favourites have been refreshed with skill
0:45:50 > 0:45:55and passion and now see a much wider audience as a result.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57Yet, there is one humble,
0:45:57 > 0:46:01but very awesome snack that has remained firmly in the shadows.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05- DRUMROLL - Dragons, it's time for our PIG reveal.
0:46:05 > 0:46:06We present to you...
0:46:09 > 0:46:11The pork scratching.
0:46:16 > 0:46:21For over 250 years, this cheeky indulgence of a snack
0:46:21 > 0:46:26has been loved by so very many people, but has remained completely and utterly unchanged.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30So, we set out two years ago to take this little piggy to markets
0:46:30 > 0:46:32he's never been before.
0:46:32 > 0:46:34- ANDY:- Now, to make that pig envision a reality,
0:46:34 > 0:46:37we set about tackling some of the key challenges we felt the market
0:46:37 > 0:46:41typically faced. First, there's the nature of the product itself.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43We often hear people are worried about breaking their teeth
0:46:43 > 0:46:46and others seem to half expect to find a nipple
0:46:46 > 0:46:47in a bag of scratchings.
0:46:47 > 0:46:50So, we only take prime cuts of pork, which we then double-cook.
0:46:50 > 0:46:52Secondly, there was a lack of variation,
0:46:52 > 0:46:55so we've developed a range of 11 flavours.
0:46:55 > 0:46:57And finally, this little piggy had an image problem.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00So, we set about creating a range of innovative formats
0:47:00 > 0:47:02for the pub market through to a range of gifting jars
0:47:02 > 0:47:04and even wedding favours.
0:47:04 > 0:47:07It turns out, he's quite a versatile SWINE.
0:47:07 > 0:47:10The pork scratching market is worth 40 million a year.
0:47:10 > 0:47:12So, with our innovative brands,
0:47:12 > 0:47:17we fully expect to take this business to a £6.9 million turnover
0:47:17 > 0:47:22with a £630,000 net profit within the next three years.
0:47:22 > 0:47:26Dragons, we would love you to be part of our adventure, and together,
0:47:26 > 0:47:28let's make the pig in magic happen.
0:47:28 > 0:47:29Thank you.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33A pitch with gusto from less-than-diffident duo,
0:47:33 > 0:47:35Nick Coleman and Andrew Allen.
0:47:35 > 0:47:36So, we've got black pepper.
0:47:36 > 0:47:37Lovely.
0:47:37 > 0:47:42They're offering 10% of their snack business in return for £70,000.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45- ANDY:- We do have ghost chilli flavoured - that'll knock your socks off.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48- I'll have the hot one. Is it really hot?- Yes, it's super hot.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51- Oh, my God. - Yeah, you might want some milk.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54OK, OK. Water. OK.
0:47:54 > 0:47:58Multimillionaire Nick Jenkins has already taken one very big piggy
0:47:58 > 0:48:02to market with his Moonpig greetings card empire.
0:48:02 > 0:48:03- PETER:- That is hot. That is hot.
0:48:03 > 0:48:07Will he have the appetite to add to his PORK-FOLIO?
0:48:09 > 0:48:11Wow, OK.
0:48:11 > 0:48:14OK. Now, you know I obviously...
0:48:14 > 0:48:18I have a natural preference for all things porcine.
0:48:18 > 0:48:20How did you get into this?
0:48:20 > 0:48:24About six years ago, I started my own business selling medical supplies,
0:48:24 > 0:48:28but two years ago, I wanted to get involved in a consumer brand.
0:48:28 > 0:48:30Just explain that. That's a very natural progression there.
0:48:30 > 0:48:33- So natural, isn't it(?)- From medical supplies into pig-related...
0:48:33 > 0:48:36You know, I came from commodity trading into Russia
0:48:36 > 0:48:40into a pig-related greeting card business, so I kind of get where you're coming from.
0:48:40 > 0:48:43Guys, I LOVE pork scratchings.
0:48:43 > 0:48:44Oh, brilliant.
0:48:44 > 0:48:46I'm your perfect customer except that I'm also completely
0:48:46 > 0:48:48aware of the fat and the salt.
0:48:49 > 0:48:52Now, we all know the trends are going towards healthier food,
0:48:52 > 0:48:56we all know there are problems with salt, we all know there are problems with fat.
0:48:56 > 0:48:58I think this size bag might be a little alarming.
0:48:58 > 0:49:02Although, I promise you, I could eat that, no problem at all,
0:49:02 > 0:49:03and ask for the next one.
0:49:03 > 0:49:05The larger packet is slightly less guilty than you think,
0:49:05 > 0:49:08because that's a slightly different product, so, there's about the same
0:49:08 > 0:49:12level of calories that is in the smaller bag. That's a lighter, fluffy one...
0:49:12 > 0:49:13636 calories?
0:49:13 > 0:49:17- Yes.- I looked straight on the back to check how many meals
0:49:17 > 0:49:21I had to skip to be able to eat that entire packet.
0:49:21 > 0:49:22It is an indulgence, as you said.
0:49:22 > 0:49:25It's one of those things. It's not something you'd be eating every day.
0:49:25 > 0:49:29So, tell me, this sounds like you've had an amazing first year.
0:49:29 > 0:49:30Yes, absolutely.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32Talk me through those numbers.
0:49:32 > 0:49:35So, year one, which will end in May 2017,
0:49:35 > 0:49:39we have projected 2.2 million, with a gross of 1.1 million
0:49:39 > 0:49:42- and a net of 165,000.- Mm-hm.
0:49:42 > 0:49:47Year two, we have a turnover expected of 4.5 million
0:49:47 > 0:49:51with a gross of 1.9 million and a net of 420.
0:49:51 > 0:49:56And in year three, 6.9 million with a gross of 2.8 million
0:49:56 > 0:49:58and a net of 630.
0:50:00 > 0:50:04Confident financial projections and a palatable product
0:50:04 > 0:50:07mean the entrepreneurs have yet to put a trotter out of place.
0:50:07 > 0:50:10With a fortune built in the food industry,
0:50:10 > 0:50:14could Sarah Willingham be the first to chow down on a deal?
0:50:16 > 0:50:18Nick, Andy,
0:50:18 > 0:50:20as a business opportunity,
0:50:20 > 0:50:26you guys are so backable, but I have got to love what I invest in.
0:50:26 > 0:50:27I've got to.
0:50:27 > 0:50:32It can't just be two great guys and a backable business.
0:50:32 > 0:50:39I've also got to want to talk about the product and love the product
0:50:39 > 0:50:40and pork scratchings make me gag.
0:50:40 > 0:50:42I don't know where else to go, other than that.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44I just can't eat them.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46So, I'm really sorry, I can't.
0:50:46 > 0:50:48I'm not going to invest. I'm out.
0:50:51 > 0:50:55A shock revelation from Sarah Willingham, as her taste buds
0:50:55 > 0:50:58get in the way of a potentially profitable partnership.
0:50:59 > 0:51:01And now there's something about their numbers
0:51:01 > 0:51:03that's troubling Nick Jenkins.
0:51:07 > 0:51:10You've obviously got overheads of 2.2 million,
0:51:10 > 0:51:12so what's the breakdown of that?
0:51:12 > 0:51:17So... The first thing is it's made up of...
0:51:19 > 0:51:23The majority of the money is being spent on our staff.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26How much of that 2.2 million is going to be salaries?
0:51:26 > 0:51:28Um, it is...
0:51:30 > 0:51:31480.
0:51:31 > 0:51:36That still leaves £1.8 million of overhead.
0:51:36 > 0:51:39Do you know what, Nick? I've forgotten some of the figures, I'm so sorry.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42No, no, it should be in your head. There's a big number here.
0:51:42 > 0:51:45Either you're going to do some massive TV campaign or you're going
0:51:45 > 0:51:50to aerially bombard Coventry with pork scratchings
0:51:50 > 0:51:53or something is going to cost £1.7 million. What is it?
0:51:55 > 0:51:59Sorry, I'm forgetting some of our additional overheads that we have in there.
0:51:59 > 0:52:03Whether it's our IT, it's our contingency,
0:52:03 > 0:52:06there is obviously advertising and PR.
0:52:08 > 0:52:10That was just a little bit vague.
0:52:10 > 0:52:12That's not terribly good.
0:52:14 > 0:52:18The once-confident entrepreneurs have floundered over their figures
0:52:18 > 0:52:22and in the Den, that can be a recipe for disaster.
0:52:22 > 0:52:26It was the calorie count that Deborah Meaden took issue with,
0:52:26 > 0:52:29but could she still pick the piggy pair for investment?
0:52:31 > 0:52:34Don't look at me with a lot of hope in your eyes.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37I'm sorry, because I don't want to do it.
0:52:38 > 0:52:44I've decided that, you know, I work with organic, I work with healthy,
0:52:44 > 0:52:46I moved towards that end of the market,
0:52:46 > 0:52:48and this just isn't going to sit with me.
0:52:48 > 0:52:51You've done some fantastic stuff here and it might be
0:52:51 > 0:52:56the oddest reason in the world, but sometimes, it just doesn't...fit.
0:52:56 > 0:52:59So, I won't be investing. I'm out.
0:53:03 > 0:53:06I think you guys should be commended
0:53:06 > 0:53:11for starting a business from scratch to be where you are.
0:53:11 > 0:53:13Because I don't eat pork,
0:53:13 > 0:53:19I'm in a position where I have to go with my beliefs.
0:53:19 > 0:53:23I don't want to mess you guys around, cos there's other Dragons here and for that reason,
0:53:23 > 0:53:24I'm out.
0:53:26 > 0:53:30Two more Dragons gone, both citing personal reasons for not investing.
0:53:32 > 0:53:36Will Peter Jones be any more willing to plough his cash
0:53:36 > 0:53:38into the pig-based product?
0:53:38 > 0:53:42I've done something similar in terms of...that came into the Den, it's popcorn related.
0:53:42 > 0:53:46I've certainly gone through that whole journey for several years
0:53:46 > 0:53:49and it was really exciting, and at the start, we did really well.
0:53:49 > 0:53:52And then we found that there was some very serious competition
0:53:52 > 0:53:54that came into the marketplace.
0:53:54 > 0:53:59The price really moved and, almost overnight,
0:53:59 > 0:54:02took the rug from under the business.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05I'm concerned because I think that your margins will come
0:54:05 > 0:54:08under pressure as you scale the business.
0:54:08 > 0:54:13The market's in growth 13% year on year, so we're going to come under some pressure,
0:54:13 > 0:54:15that's why we've pushed so hard on the branded jars.
0:54:15 > 0:54:18- We've done particularly well with Not On The High Street.- Yeah.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21We were their fastest-growing food and drink partner last year.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24We're going to be featured heavily for Fathers' Day and for Christmas
0:54:24 > 0:54:27and we're working on the Advent calendar you can see at the end there.
0:54:27 > 0:54:29It does answer a gift for a difficult-to-buy man.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32You know, pigs might fly but I can't see you're going to get there.
0:54:32 > 0:54:36I really can't and I think, sadly, I think it's going to hit that plateau.
0:54:36 > 0:54:39So, I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:54:40 > 0:54:46Peter Jones walks away, concerned over the scalability of the business.
0:54:46 > 0:54:49Nick Jenkins is the last Dragon standing.
0:54:49 > 0:54:52Will he be the one to save their bacon?
0:54:55 > 0:54:57Look, I'm going to make you an offer.
0:55:00 > 0:55:04I'm going to make you an offer for all of the money, but I would want
0:55:04 > 0:55:0720% of the business and that would make it worthwhile.
0:55:07 > 0:55:08Thank you very much for the offer.
0:55:08 > 0:55:10- Can we go have a chat? - Go and have a chat.
0:55:10 > 0:55:12Thank you.
0:55:14 > 0:55:15What d'you want to do?
0:55:18 > 0:55:20Finally, an offer.
0:55:20 > 0:55:24But Nick Jenkins's equity demand of 20% is double the 10%
0:55:24 > 0:55:26the entrepreneurs want to give away.
0:55:26 > 0:55:28- What do you think? - I think we should take it.
0:55:28 > 0:55:29OK.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32I think this will be the shortest chat in history.
0:55:32 > 0:55:33Will they strike a deal?
0:55:35 > 0:55:37- I think that's the way.- Excellent.
0:55:39 > 0:55:40Great. Had a little chat then.
0:55:40 > 0:55:43Thank you so much for that offer. It's very humbling to know that
0:55:43 > 0:55:46you want to be involved in our journey, so we're very excited by that.
0:55:46 > 0:55:50Obviously, we came in looking for ten, obviously we're willing to negotiate.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53We really believe in where this product's going to go,
0:55:53 > 0:55:56but what we'd like to do is put our money where our mouth is.
0:55:56 > 0:55:58So, what we'd like to do is offer you the 20% today...
0:55:58 > 0:56:01- Yep.- ..but we'd like the chance to be able to buy back your shares
0:56:01 > 0:56:04at today's market rate in 18 months' time, once we hit our sales
0:56:04 > 0:56:06and our profit projections.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08- To buy back to 10?- Yes.
0:56:10 > 0:56:11In 18 months?
0:56:11 > 0:56:14- In 18 months.- Then it's a deal.- Yes!
0:56:14 > 0:56:17The pigs have merged. Here we go.
0:56:17 > 0:56:20The pork scratching entrepreneurs have done it.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23They've given away 20% of their business,
0:56:23 > 0:56:26but with a buy-back agreement that will potentially see Nick Jenkins's
0:56:26 > 0:56:29stake drop to 10% in 18 months' time.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32Thank you so much. That's brilliant. Thank you.
0:56:32 > 0:56:34- Yes!- Well done, fantastic.
0:56:34 > 0:56:37You're two chuffed little piglets, aren't you?
0:56:37 > 0:56:39This little piggy has gone to market.
0:56:39 > 0:56:41LAUGHTER
0:56:45 > 0:56:47- Well done.- Real good.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49Wow, you do like pigs, don't you?
0:56:49 > 0:56:52- They were good guys. - Very, very smart guys.
0:56:53 > 0:56:56It's going to be so exciting to see what other things we're going to come up with.
0:56:56 > 0:57:00We've got the king of gifting, Mr Moonpig himself, involved in Snaffling Pig,
0:57:00 > 0:57:01it's the perfect marriage.
0:57:01 > 0:57:02Fantastic.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10So, tonight, business has been all about the double act.
0:57:10 > 0:57:14It was double trouble for the family partnership of John and Anneka,
0:57:14 > 0:57:17but we saw fashion duo Beth and Sarah shake hands on a deal
0:57:17 > 0:57:20with two Dragons, and a pork scratchings partnership
0:57:20 > 0:57:23snaffled an investment from Nick Jenkins.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27Now, the winning pairs need to double down on the work
0:57:27 > 0:57:30and double up on the size of their business.
0:57:32 > 0:57:34Coming up next time...
0:57:34 > 0:57:35Rachel and Paula, can we...?
0:57:35 > 0:57:36Oh, my God.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38Can we start being a bit more serious about this?
0:57:38 > 0:57:40I don't want this to go wrong for you...
0:57:40 > 0:57:43- OK.- But you need to come up with something a lot stronger than that.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45I'm not going to tie your shoelaces again.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47It's about time you did them yourself.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50You have solved a problem that doesn't exist.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52You've put your whole life behind this?
0:57:52 > 0:57:56- Yeah.- I'm going to say it how it is, I'm not impressed.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58I'm still struggling to understand what I'm investing in.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00You've got to make this more snappy.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03- I'm going to make you an offer. - You might need two Dragons for this.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05I can't not make you an offer.
0:58:05 > 0:58:06You've done well, haven't you?