0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight on Dragons' Den...
0:00:08 > 0:00:09There's a grave.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12You're now two foot in the grave.
0:00:12 > 0:00:14Have you come here for investment or counselling?
0:00:15 > 0:00:17I feel very, very conflicted.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20I have to come clean, I'm also very conflicted.
0:00:20 > 0:00:24And would you believe it, I think I'm conflicted.
0:00:24 > 0:00:25You CAN produce it.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28- Yes.- But the point is that nobody wants it.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32As a brand, I love it...and I'm going to make you an offer.
0:01:06 > 0:01:08Welcome to Dragons' Den -
0:01:08 > 0:01:12a place of aspiration and perspiration where entrepreneurs
0:01:12 > 0:01:16with big business dreams meet our wealthy investors,
0:01:16 > 0:01:18who have big cash to invest.
0:01:20 > 0:01:24First to enter the Den is Ranjit Sohal,
0:01:24 > 0:01:27a retired college lecturer from Wolverhampton
0:01:27 > 0:01:30who isn't ready to put his feet up just yet.
0:01:30 > 0:01:32I'm a workaholic.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34Time has no meaning in my head.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39I'm likely to get up at three o'clock in the morning
0:01:39 > 0:01:41if something's bugging me.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Our product is so simple.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47It's simpler than simple.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52If one of the Dragons was to come on board,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55I think that it will become a success.
0:01:55 > 0:01:56There's no doubt in my mind.
0:02:05 > 0:02:06Hello, Dragons.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12My name's Ran Sohal.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15I'm the managing director of MAGi-led UK Ltd.
0:02:16 > 0:02:21We specialise in unique LED lighting,
0:02:21 > 0:02:25and I'm here today to ask for £50,000
0:02:25 > 0:02:28for an equity stake of 15%.
0:02:30 > 0:02:35Conventional downlights are bulky, labour-intensive...
0:02:36 > 0:02:40..but beyond that, there are some real serious installation issues.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44First of all, all downlights,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47they have these butterfly clips.
0:02:48 > 0:02:53In order to install the downlight into the ceiling cavity,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57you have to force that and immediately you will end up causing
0:02:57 > 0:03:00some damage to yourself.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05Secondly, in order to hold the lamp in place,
0:03:05 > 0:03:07you have to have a tension spring.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11This spring is an electrician's nightmare.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17As soon as you install that spring, it tends to fly off.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22So the electrician will spend some time looking for it.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26Our product is nothing like that.
0:03:26 > 0:03:31It's a plug. It's a plug that you insert into the ceiling.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34It is very, very easy to pull out.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38It is fairly easy to install.
0:03:38 > 0:03:42In terms of its safety, in terms of compliance,
0:03:42 > 0:03:47it will far outweigh anything that a conventional downlight will do.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Thank you for listening.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52If you have any questions, please feel free to ask.
0:03:54 > 0:03:58Hoping his product - a fuss-free silicone housing
0:03:58 > 0:03:59for recessed lighting -
0:03:59 > 0:04:02can spark an offer from the Dragons
0:04:02 > 0:04:06is self-proclaimed workaholic Ranjit Sohal.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08They are all available in different colours.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11- Thank you.- He's offering a 15% slice of his company
0:04:11 > 0:04:14in return for a £50,000 investment.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18Retail king Touker Suleyman
0:04:18 > 0:04:20wants to shed a bit more light on the product.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Ran, my name is Touker.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28You seem to be very knowledgeable...
0:04:30 > 0:04:32- ..in this sector.- Yes.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34So tell us a little bit about yourself.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36I'm a physicist.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39Most of my life I spent in education,
0:04:39 > 0:04:41but the last seven, eight years,
0:04:41 > 0:04:43I've been developing my products.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47OK. What is MAGi-led?
0:04:47 > 0:04:49MAGi-led, it stands, actually, for
0:04:49 > 0:04:55Magnetic Applied Global ingenious lighting environmental design.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59- Wow!- But for the rest of the world, it's a lighting and heating company.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04So, we are talking about, this is plastic, we're talking about this.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06- Yes.- Just one item.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08That... There are... There are actually...
0:05:08 > 0:05:10In reality, there are three.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13- There is what I call the vertical flexi-led...- Right.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16..that will give you light clearly in the straight down.
0:05:16 > 0:05:20The one that you have there is what I call slanted,
0:05:20 > 0:05:24so if we had your portrait and we wanted to put some light on it,
0:05:24 > 0:05:26that would be the purpose of that,
0:05:26 > 0:05:28particularly for shop accent lighting.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32OK, so this, you can just take out, paint,
0:05:32 > 0:05:33put it on and take it out any time?
0:05:33 > 0:05:37Yes. Our total design is... I believe it's near-perfect.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43A bright start for the West Midlands entrepreneur.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46But the colour scheme is making Nick Jenkins see red.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54When was the last time you ever saw a multicoloured light fitting
0:05:54 > 0:05:55on sale in a shop?
0:05:57 > 0:05:58- I mean, look at that thing over there.- Yes.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01That thing, the pink one, it's pink silicon.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03It would look more at home in Ann Summers.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07What? When did you last go into Ann Summers?
0:06:07 > 0:06:10That's another story altogether, Peter, that's another story.
0:06:10 > 0:06:11But, I mean... But... It's...
0:06:11 > 0:06:14Why would anybody want a luminous pink light fitting?
0:06:15 > 0:06:18- There's just no market for it.- Any colour that is available in the
0:06:18 > 0:06:21marketplace, we can produce any lamp to any colour.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24I know you can. No, look, Ran, you can produce it.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27- Yes.- But the point that you don't understand is that nobody wants it.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31I don't know, I'd quite like a pink light fitting in...
0:06:31 > 0:06:32That's your problem.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34..in a room that's pink. You know...
0:06:34 > 0:06:36LAUGHTER
0:06:37 > 0:06:41Ranjit, I think your product is innovative.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44- Yes.- It's clearly very quick installation.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46I like it.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52But to be honest, the big issue with your product is actually that.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57The template to the cut-out hole?
0:06:57 > 0:07:02The most important factor of a spotlight is its flash mounting
0:07:02 > 0:07:03- capabilities.- Yes.
0:07:03 > 0:07:08So when you aesthetically look up you don't see slight gaps between
0:07:08 > 0:07:11the ceiling board and the light.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13- Yes.- And even here with a piece of card...
0:07:13 > 0:07:18and look, I'm not playing with it, I'm not... You can see gaps.
0:07:20 > 0:07:25Peter, please feel free to check every one of these.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29We've had the correct cut out holes, you're looking at a very thin paper.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32Now, these cut holes have been cut correctly and there are a number
0:07:32 > 0:07:34- of models here.- Yeah, they have,
0:07:34 > 0:07:36but none of them have been done with plasterboard.
0:07:38 > 0:07:41The reason why I didn't, because it would crack and fall apart...
0:07:41 > 0:07:43Exactly!
0:07:43 > 0:07:47..in your hand, no, in your hand I felt that because of the mess it
0:07:47 > 0:07:49- would make there...- Ran,
0:07:49 > 0:07:52when you're demonstrating a product you need to demonstrate a product
0:07:52 > 0:07:55in the environment of which it's going to be installed.
0:07:55 > 0:07:59- Yes.- And I understand, it looks pretty, the colours look great.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01The only thing missing - you need a clamp.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08Tech tycoon Peter Jones has yet to be convinced that Ran's product
0:08:08 > 0:08:11is better than a conventional spotlight casing.
0:08:12 > 0:08:15Deborah Meaden has successful investments
0:08:15 > 0:08:16in DIY and the building trade.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19Can she see it selling in the big stores?
0:08:22 > 0:08:23I'm the sparky in the house.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26My husband's terrified of electricity.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29I don't know what happened to him as a child, I change all of our bulbs.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31And there's two issues with this.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34One is, the silver clip, which is the easy clip,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37where you just put your finger in, pull the little silver thing,
0:08:37 > 0:08:40the bulb drops down, switch the bulb, up it goes again.
0:08:40 > 0:08:41I don't think that's fiddly.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45And secondly, as we move across to LED,
0:08:45 > 0:08:46you change your lights less often.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49Now, you know, the halogens used to blow for a pastime.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52- Agreed.- You know, and every time I walked into the house, you know,
0:08:52 > 0:08:5410% of the bulbs would be down.
0:08:54 > 0:08:55Now, we've got LEDs.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58- Yes.- And because we're all going LED,
0:08:58 > 0:09:01I'm never going to touch that light bulb again.
0:09:03 > 0:09:04I'm happy to accept...
0:09:05 > 0:09:08If it's a valid point, I'll accept it, but I...
0:09:08 > 0:09:11My experience is not the same.
0:09:12 > 0:09:17The entrepreneur and Deborah Meaden fail to see eye to eye on whether
0:09:17 > 0:09:21long-lasting LED bulbs could soon be the death of Ranjit's
0:09:21 > 0:09:23business ambitions.
0:09:23 > 0:09:26Sarah Willingham's stepped into the shoes of the consumer,
0:09:26 > 0:09:29and it appears she's not buying it either.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Ranjit, you've done such a good job trying to convince everybody but
0:09:35 > 0:09:42nobody's even moved a millimetre and it's going to be really difficult
0:09:42 > 0:09:45to persuade the consumer with this product on a shelf.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50I would be perfectly willing to step aside and let the marketeers
0:09:50 > 0:09:54- take it over.- The thing is, is that's not what we do,
0:09:54 > 0:09:57we don't come into a business and just run the marketing department,
0:09:57 > 0:10:01you know, we invest in people that can take it to the next stage.
0:10:02 > 0:10:04So, I'm not going to invest.
0:10:04 > 0:10:05I'm afraid I'm out.
0:10:07 > 0:10:08Thank you.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13Sarah Willingham takes a dim view of the lighting product
0:10:13 > 0:10:15and leaves the negotiations.
0:10:16 > 0:10:20Dot-com impresario Nick Jenkins has been scrutinising the packaging
0:10:20 > 0:10:22and something's caught his eye.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27You say that you're "An innovative company that designs, develops
0:10:27 > 0:10:30"and manufactures solid-state, energy-efficient lighting."
0:10:30 > 0:10:31- Yes.- Now, do you have a factory?
0:10:31 > 0:10:34Yes, what we... No, we do not manufacture, what we...
0:10:34 > 0:10:36Well, you just said... This says that,
0:10:36 > 0:10:39"MAGi-led is an innovative company that designs,
0:10:39 > 0:10:41"develops and manufactures."
0:10:41 > 0:10:42- Yes.- So, you don't manufacture?
0:10:42 > 0:10:46Under our branding, we design, we get...
0:10:46 > 0:10:50We ensure our products conform to European legislation and then we go
0:10:50 > 0:10:53to different manufacturers and we simply give them the...
0:10:53 > 0:10:54OK, so, so...
0:10:55 > 0:10:57Do you or do you not manufacture?
0:10:57 > 0:10:58We do not manufacture,
0:10:58 > 0:11:01we do assemble some of our products ourselves.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07Then why do you say on your box you "design, develop and manufacture"?
0:11:07 > 0:11:08Why did you put the word on it?
0:11:10 > 0:11:12I'm not a marketeer.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14- No.- I'm not a marketeer.
0:11:16 > 0:11:18It's just not investable.
0:11:20 > 0:11:21So, I'm sorry but I'm out.
0:11:23 > 0:11:27Another opportunity blown as Nick Jenkins joins Sarah Willingham
0:11:27 > 0:11:30and declares himself out.
0:11:30 > 0:11:32Only three Dragons remain.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35Has Deborah Meaden seen the light?
0:11:38 > 0:11:42Ran, I would love to think that we'd sell some of these,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45they'd go in the ceiling, everybody would go "wow!"
0:11:45 > 0:11:49- Wow.- "That's brilliant."- Mm-hm.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51And if I believed that,
0:11:51 > 0:11:53I would be sitting here and making you an offer.
0:11:54 > 0:11:59However, I can't make you an offer, I'm really sorry, Ran.
0:12:00 > 0:12:01I accept.
0:12:01 > 0:12:02I totally accept.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04- I won't be investing.- We have...
0:12:04 > 0:12:07- I know you want to stop me saying those two words.- Oh, no, no.
0:12:07 > 0:12:10- If, if the products...- No, let me just say those two words.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12I won't be investing, Ran.
0:12:12 > 0:12:13I'm out.
0:12:16 > 0:12:21Ranjit, the light fitting is incredibly well-designed.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23Thank you.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26But I do wish that you'd brought in some plasterboard so we could have
0:12:26 > 0:12:28actually seen the product for real.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31- Yes.- Because that's the application in which this product is going to be
0:12:31 > 0:12:32- sitting.- Of course.
0:12:34 > 0:12:35I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41A double Dragon rejection as Peter Jones and Deborah Meaden
0:12:41 > 0:12:42end their interest.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46Only Touker Suleyman now remains.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Has he had a light-bulb moment?
0:12:51 > 0:12:52Ran.
0:12:54 > 0:12:55I think you're great.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59I can only say thank you.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02I like the product.
0:13:02 > 0:13:03I love the colours.
0:13:05 > 0:13:06I could see this selling in IKEA.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11Have you shown these to anybody...
0:13:12 > 0:13:15..and have you had any reaction from anybody?
0:13:15 > 0:13:19We have done a great deal of research including architects,
0:13:19 > 0:13:21including electricians,
0:13:21 > 0:13:25and the response has been very, very positive.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28Have you got any retailer who might have seen it and said,
0:13:28 > 0:13:30"we want to buy some right away, when will you have some?"
0:13:30 > 0:13:33No, because it is not in the marketplace.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37But I have absolutely no doubt, none whatsoever, we will sell.
0:13:37 > 0:13:42No, no. But, Ran, I'm in no position to take that risk.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44I know nothing about the electrical industry.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46- Yes.- I cannot help you with marketing.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50And because I can't give you what you're looking for, it's a risk.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53- So, therefore...- We are looking for marketing, marketing, marketeer.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55I'm afraid I'm not going to invest and I'm out.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59Well, thank you, sir, it's very kind of you.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05A final rejection from Touker Suleyman.
0:14:05 > 0:14:10- Thank you.- And the enigmatic entrepreneur exits the Den without
0:14:10 > 0:14:12the £50,000 investment he was hoping for.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16Such a shame he didn't bring plasterboard in to demonstrate
0:14:16 > 0:14:17the product properly.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22Our product was about innovation, our product was about progress.
0:14:22 > 0:14:27It was about the future, and I think somehow that got lost,
0:14:27 > 0:14:29and perhaps that was my weakness.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Next to face the Dragons are proud parents Lauren and Mark Taylor.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44Everything that we're doing with the business is all about doing it
0:14:44 > 0:14:47for our own children. They're at the heart of everything we do.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51And it's their skincare product for the booming baby care market
0:14:51 > 0:14:54that they're here to pitch.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56We get people telling us we've changed their lives.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59It feels more than a business to us.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01It feels like a passion.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05But will the Dragons show equal passion for an investment?
0:15:20 > 0:15:21Hello, Dragons.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24I'm Lauren and this is my husband Mark.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26And we're here today to offer you 10% of our business,
0:15:26 > 0:15:30Kokoso Skin Limited, in exchange for a £50,000 investment.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36Our product is Kokoso Baby, a premium quality,
0:15:36 > 0:15:41100% natural and organic coconut oil, specially selected
0:15:41 > 0:15:43for head-to-toe infant skin care.
0:15:44 > 0:15:48Kokoso Baby was born out of a desire to care for our daughter's skin
0:15:48 > 0:15:51in the most natural way possible.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54As a new mum, I was one of the 89% of parents worried about
0:15:54 > 0:15:58the potentially harmful chemicals in mainstream baby toiletries.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02So I did my research and discovered the many topical benefits of
0:16:02 > 0:16:04raw, virgin coconut oil.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08So, when we started the business, we made it our mission to source
0:16:08 > 0:16:10the highest grade coconut oil we could find.
0:16:10 > 0:16:12We're currently selling on our website,
0:16:12 > 0:16:16in independent baby boutiques and in Boots stores throughout the UK.
0:16:16 > 0:16:21There are 700,000 babies born in the UK alone every year, and the trend
0:16:21 > 0:16:26in baby toiletries is moving towards premium, natural and organic,
0:16:26 > 0:16:28just like Kokoso Baby.
0:16:28 > 0:16:29Thank you for your time.
0:16:29 > 0:16:30Would you like to try the product?
0:16:33 > 0:16:36A well-oiled pitch from parents-cum-business partners
0:16:36 > 0:16:38Lauren and Mark Taylor.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40A little goes a long way.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43They're hoping £50,000 of Dragon investment...
0:16:43 > 0:16:45Lovely.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49..for a 10% stake will propel their infant skin care range into
0:16:49 > 0:16:51a must-have product for baby.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56News that they're already stocked in one high-street retailer
0:16:56 > 0:16:58has caught the attention of Nick Jenkins.
0:17:02 > 0:17:03Lauren, Mark, I'm Nick.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05- BOTH:- Hi, Nick.
0:17:05 > 0:17:06You're stocked in Boots?
0:17:06 > 0:17:08Yeah.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10Tell me about some numbers.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12We launched in 200 stores
0:17:12 > 0:17:14and they're doubling the number of stores to 400.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16OK, going up to 400.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18And you sold - how much have you sold in those 200 stores
0:17:18 > 0:17:19in the last 12 months?
0:17:19 > 0:17:23In the last 12 months, 9,000 since we launched in June.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25- 9,000?- 9,000 units.
0:17:25 > 0:17:26Unit. So, what's that in pounds?
0:17:26 > 0:17:28That would be about...
0:17:28 > 0:17:3018...
0:17:30 > 0:17:32About £20,000.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36I was sort of hoping you were going to say more than that.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40How many stores have they got in total?
0:17:40 > 0:17:44Well, they only have a certain amount with baby sections.
0:17:44 > 0:17:46OK, but how many have they got with baby section?
0:17:46 > 0:17:48- There's about 800.- 800 with baby sections.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51If you extrapolate that up and you say, well, wow, imagine,
0:17:51 > 0:17:53we can get into the biggest chemist in the country and they've got
0:17:53 > 0:17:56800 stores, and that would just be amazing and transformational
0:17:56 > 0:17:58for the business.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02But if that turned into sort of £80,000 worth of business,
0:18:02 > 0:18:05that wouldn't be transformational, really, would it?
0:18:06 > 0:18:08No.
0:18:13 > 0:18:19Your product has sold less than one of these per store, per week.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25- Genuinely, that is not good.- Well...
0:18:25 > 0:18:26So, what's gone wrong?
0:18:26 > 0:18:30I mean, they don't, Boots themselves don't see it that way.
0:18:30 > 0:18:32We haven't really done it with any marketing, so when we...
0:18:32 > 0:18:35The whole idea of having a retail store is that you put things in it
0:18:35 > 0:18:37that people, hopefully, will buy.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41As I said, just by offering a promotion for two weeks,
0:18:41 > 0:18:44we doubled sales and they stayed at that level for the next four months.
0:18:44 > 0:18:47But they're doubling the number of stores we're in from next month,
0:18:47 > 0:18:49and that's got to be for a reason...
0:18:49 > 0:18:52Well, that means that you're going to be moving about 90...
0:18:53 > 0:18:55..per store per year.
0:18:57 > 0:19:00I guess if that, yeah, that average, yeah.
0:19:00 > 0:19:02That's really bad.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10Not the best of starts for Lauren and Mark as they're forced to defend
0:19:10 > 0:19:13their moderate high-street sales.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16Deborah Meaden is a prime player in the organic market.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19Does she forecast a more profitable future?
0:19:23 > 0:19:27I love the smell, you know, and the purity of it is really lovely.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30- Yeah, it is, yeah.- Because, one of the things I constantly say is,
0:19:30 > 0:19:32"don't put things on your children's skin
0:19:32 > 0:19:33"that you wouldn't put in their mouth."
0:19:33 > 0:19:38- Yeah, that's exactly it.- Because our skin absorbs exactly the same things
0:19:38 > 0:19:41that we do when we eat, you know, and you can't get purer than that.
0:19:42 > 0:19:46Unfortunately, I feel very, very conflicted.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54Because I've actually invested in a toiletries range.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57We're looking to spread out to creams, you know.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59I couldn't talk about this as, you know, the ultimate product
0:19:59 > 0:20:02- and then talk about that as the ultimate, you know...- Yeah.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04- ..the one that I'm already involved in.- Yeah.
0:20:04 > 0:20:08So, I might as well say now, you know, sadly, for those reasons,
0:20:08 > 0:20:10I'm going to have to declare myself out.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18A previous Den investment in a skincare range for children
0:20:18 > 0:20:21leaves a conflicted Deborah Meaden unable to do business,
0:20:21 > 0:20:24and she's the first Dragon out.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28Is mum-of-four Sarah Willingham more inclined to pursue a deal?
0:20:30 > 0:20:35In terms of putting raw organic coconut oil on your kids,
0:20:35 > 0:20:40I think it is completely the future, the way forward.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43It's been the single product that I've put on my kids' eczema
0:20:43 > 0:20:46- that's had the biggest success. - Yeah.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49But I also have to come clean,
0:20:49 > 0:20:51I'm also very conflicted.
0:20:53 > 0:20:59Because I have just invested in a raw organic coconut oil business
0:20:59 > 0:21:01that is extremely good quality.
0:21:01 > 0:21:06It's not yet in skincare but the actual product is exactly the same,
0:21:06 > 0:21:09so I'm afraid I'm going to have to declare myself out as well.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15Can I tell you where I'm at? My hands are just slightly,
0:21:15 > 0:21:18slightly forced as I have realised that I'm conflicted because
0:21:18 > 0:21:21I am actually a joint investor with Sarah.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25So, it would be very odd of me to make you an offer.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28I'm afraid I can't invest, so I'm out.
0:21:31 > 0:21:35A further blow as Sarah Willingham and Nick Jenkins also
0:21:35 > 0:21:39find themselves hamstrung by a conflicting Den investment.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44Which means high-street retailer Touker Suleyman has a chance
0:21:44 > 0:21:46to take advantage of the situation.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50You've lost Dragons cos they're conflicted.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54- Yeah.- They're in a similar business, so there must be something in it.
0:21:54 > 0:21:58- Yeah.- Right? You've got a brand. - Mm-hm.- You're in Boots,
0:21:58 > 0:22:00one step ahead of the competition.
0:22:00 > 0:22:03You've gone past that initial hurdle.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06The real question is,
0:22:06 > 0:22:08is this a business that can grow?
0:22:10 > 0:22:14The way we see it is we've got the coconut oil as the hero product,
0:22:14 > 0:22:17- this is what does all the good. - Right.
0:22:17 > 0:22:20All the other products that we can then bring into that to produce
0:22:20 > 0:22:24a range all revolve around this one hero product,
0:22:24 > 0:22:27so it's really looking at the potential, where we want to be,
0:22:27 > 0:22:31and having a Dragon to make sure that we can scale to that level
0:22:31 > 0:22:35and be in the everyday baby market.
0:22:35 > 0:22:38You're saying that you want to compete with the big boys?
0:22:39 > 0:22:40Yeah.
0:22:41 > 0:22:46You realise once you're in that arena, your margin gets squeezed,
0:22:46 > 0:22:47you're not selling much...
0:22:48 > 0:22:50..you'll just get eaten alive.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58Touker Suleyman is worried that as the entrepreneurs' business expands,
0:22:58 > 0:23:01their profit margins will come under pressure.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05Can Peter Jones see a more favourable prospect
0:23:05 > 0:23:06for an investment?
0:23:07 > 0:23:10This is quite sad, isn't it? You've got three people
0:23:10 > 0:23:12that are conflicted, you've got Touks still in...
0:23:14 > 0:23:15..and would you believe it...
0:23:16 > 0:23:18..I think I'm conflicted.
0:23:19 > 0:23:22Because I own 30% of Truly Holly Baby,
0:23:22 > 0:23:24which is Holly Willoughby's company.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26- Oh. - Oh, right, OK.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29And we are bringing out a range of creams and everything's organic,
0:23:29 > 0:23:30everything is natural.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34So, four out of five Dragons are conflicted...
0:23:36 > 0:23:37..which is probably the first time
0:23:37 > 0:23:39I've ever known this to happen in the Den.
0:23:39 > 0:23:44I, clearly, am not going to go and invest in this.
0:23:44 > 0:23:45- I'm out.- OK.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47Thank you.
0:23:48 > 0:23:53An unprecedented turn of events in the Den sees four Dragons declare
0:23:53 > 0:23:57a conflict of interest that prevents a profitable partnership.
0:23:57 > 0:24:02Retail giant Touker Suleyman is now the husband-and-wife duo's only hope
0:24:02 > 0:24:03for an investment.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06But will he be prepared to risk his cash
0:24:06 > 0:24:10in a business that would put him in direct competition
0:24:10 > 0:24:12with all four of his fellow Dragons?
0:24:15 > 0:24:18When I look at your numbers and I look at where you're at,
0:24:18 > 0:24:20you've probably got hardly anything in the bank.
0:24:20 > 0:24:21- Correct?- Yeah.
0:24:23 > 0:24:25What do you want from a Dragon?
0:24:25 > 0:24:27What doors do you want open?
0:24:27 > 0:24:29Or is it just the money you want cos you're desperate for money?
0:24:31 > 0:24:32No, no, not at all.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36We have a vision of where we can take it and what other products
0:24:36 > 0:24:38we can bring in that are more mainstream.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40No, you didn't answer my question.
0:24:42 > 0:24:44What would you expect from me?
0:24:44 > 0:24:46Just an overview business strategy, really.
0:24:46 > 0:24:49Just an overview of where we want to be and make sure we could get there
0:24:49 > 0:24:52from someone that's scaled a business and can see what pitfalls
0:24:52 > 0:24:55we might fall into, make sure we don't fall into them.
0:24:59 > 0:25:02As a business, there's not much there.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04- At the moment, yeah.- At the moment.
0:25:05 > 0:25:08However, I admire what you've done and...
0:25:13 > 0:25:14I'm thinking.
0:25:21 > 0:25:22As a brand, I love it.
0:25:23 > 0:25:25And I'm going to make you an offer.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27Thank you.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36I think you are going to need quite a bit of mentoring...
0:25:37 > 0:25:39..in the business world,
0:25:39 > 0:25:41I'd probably help you out with your website,
0:25:41 > 0:25:45help you out to see where you want to go with this.
0:25:47 > 0:25:49And I'm going to want a bit more percentage, I'm afraid.
0:25:52 > 0:25:54Yeah?
0:25:54 > 0:25:57And I'd want 30% of the business.
0:26:01 > 0:26:02For 50 grand.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06OK. Shall we go and have a think about it?
0:26:06 > 0:26:08Yes. We're just going to have a chat.
0:26:08 > 0:26:09All right.
0:26:11 > 0:26:12Finally an offer,
0:26:12 > 0:26:18but Touker Suleyman's equity demand of 30% is three times the 10%
0:26:18 > 0:26:20that Lauren and Mark wanted to give away.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23Do you want to say 25?
0:26:23 > 0:26:25Well, we did say we wouldn't go above that, didn't we?
0:26:25 > 0:26:28It's the entrepreneurs' turn to be conflicted.
0:26:30 > 0:26:31I would have gone for 40.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34They're going to come back with a second my offer.
0:26:34 > 0:26:36- I think this needs a lot of work. - It needs a lot of work.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39What about the option to go down?
0:26:41 > 0:26:44I don't really want to get into that.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46Will they do a deal or walk away?
0:26:49 > 0:26:52I think you've put us in a slightly difficult position because
0:26:52 > 0:26:56we did say we wouldn't go above 25%.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59Have you got any room to come down?
0:27:06 > 0:27:08I won't come down, but I'll put it this way to you.
0:27:09 > 0:27:13When I get my money back, I'll give you back the 5%.
0:27:14 > 0:27:16- OK.- For free.- OK.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20I've got a very good team behind me, and we'll help you on a daily basis.
0:27:26 > 0:27:27That sounds amazing.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30Thank you.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32- We'd like to accept your offer. - Thank you, yeah.
0:27:32 > 0:27:33- Good.- Oh, fantastic.
0:27:33 > 0:27:35Great, thanks very much, Touker, really.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37- Thank you so much.- We will definitely make a go of this.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39It takes a brave entrepreneur
0:27:39 > 0:27:42to negotiate with the last Dragon standing.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44- OK, thank you so much. - I'm excited about it.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48- Thank you.- They've given away 30% of their business,
0:27:48 > 0:27:51but with an agreement that Touker Suleyman will give back
0:27:51 > 0:27:555% of the business when he recoups his initial investment.
0:27:55 > 0:27:57Ecstatic, couldn't be happier.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00They were sort of dropping like flies at one point.
0:28:02 > 0:28:03Congratulations, Touker.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Thank you. I love the product, I love the branding,
0:28:05 > 0:28:07it could only go one way.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17Also hoping to cash in on the baby-boom in the Den
0:28:17 > 0:28:20was Lorna Edwards from Clackmannanshire,
0:28:20 > 0:28:22with her baby-friendly balloon business.
0:28:24 > 0:28:28The Bubabloon is a fabric cover for balloons,
0:28:28 > 0:28:33which makes them safe for babies from four months of age onwards.
0:28:33 > 0:28:34Three blows should do it.
0:28:34 > 0:28:37Lorna was asking for a £50,000 investment
0:28:37 > 0:28:40for a 20% share of the business.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44It's bouncy like a football and floats like a balloon.
0:28:44 > 0:28:47Sarah Willingham did her best to get the ball rolling.
0:28:48 > 0:28:50Hi, Lorna, thank you.
0:28:54 > 0:28:55There's always one in the room.
0:28:55 > 0:28:56There's always...
0:29:00 > 0:29:04Peter Jones was keen to check the robustness of the product
0:29:04 > 0:29:07with his usual care and attention.
0:29:07 > 0:29:10- Hey up! Oh!- I just wanted to see whether it would bang.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13Actually, there's a good point in not blowing it.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15- I'm having fun. - Plenty of laughs in the Den,
0:29:15 > 0:29:18but Sarah Willingham was struggling to see the point.
0:29:18 > 0:29:21So, why would you not have a beachball?
0:29:21 > 0:29:23This is something a bit more fun,
0:29:23 > 0:29:26and it actually doubles up as a nose wiper and bum wiper, as well.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29If you're looking for something to use in an emergency.
0:29:29 > 0:29:30You can't do that with a beachball.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32Did you just say a bum wipe?
0:29:32 > 0:29:37That didn't sell it to me, if I'm being completely honest.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40Peter Jones was starting to see some potential in the product.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42You can do quite a lot with it, can't you?
0:29:42 > 0:29:44It's even better fun if you take one of the big ones,
0:29:44 > 0:29:48- they really have a lot of fun. - Oh, fantastic.
0:29:48 > 0:29:51And he got to road test his signature Den one-liners.
0:29:53 > 0:29:55I don't want to burst your balloon, Laura,
0:29:55 > 0:29:58but I've got a funny feeling you're going to be deflated after this.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01You're full of hot air, you know that, don't you?
0:30:01 > 0:30:05Finally, it was left to Nick Jenkins to let the entrepreneur
0:30:05 > 0:30:07and the product down gently.
0:30:11 > 0:30:13- I'm out.- Thank you for your time.
0:30:16 > 0:30:18That was quite fun, to be fair.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23Still to come...
0:30:23 > 0:30:25animal antics...
0:30:25 > 0:30:26Sit, good!
0:30:27 > 0:30:29..dogged defiance...
0:30:29 > 0:30:31What does it cost you?
0:30:31 > 0:30:34That's not something I'm happy to go on television.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38..and bold claims.
0:30:38 > 0:30:39There's a lot more work to do,
0:30:39 > 0:30:41but the things we're aiming for are massive.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43I mean, it's changing pet care.
0:30:52 > 0:30:55Next to enter the Den is the somewhat anxious
0:30:55 > 0:30:59former Merchant Navy officer John Bull from Somerset.
0:31:00 > 0:31:02I'm quite a quiet chap.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05Having to do any sort of performance in terms of presentation,
0:31:05 > 0:31:07I find difficult.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13John left the Merchant Navy to go it alone as a product designer.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15But the prospect of facing the Dragons
0:31:15 > 0:31:17has left him feeling all at sea.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22I have met challenges like this before,
0:31:22 > 0:31:25but walking into the Den is something that has been
0:31:25 > 0:31:28approaching me with an increasing sense of terror.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40Hello, Dragons. My name is John Bull, and today,
0:31:40 > 0:31:45I'd like to invite you to invest £50,000
0:31:45 > 0:31:48in exchange for a 20% share in my product,
0:31:48 > 0:31:51the plinth tablet stand.
0:31:51 > 0:31:52Over the last five years,
0:31:52 > 0:31:56I have tried all sorts of cases and covers and stands,
0:31:56 > 0:32:02and I've never found one that met all of my requirements in terms of
0:32:02 > 0:32:05pocketability, stability,
0:32:05 > 0:32:08versatility, and speed.
0:32:09 > 0:32:12So I set out to design one which does.
0:32:13 > 0:32:15Here it is. I call it Plinth.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18As you can see, it's extremely small,
0:32:18 > 0:32:20it's only ten millimetres thick,
0:32:20 > 0:32:22and it weighs less than 50g.
0:32:22 > 0:32:24It deploys instantly...
0:32:26 > 0:32:28..into a very stable stand,
0:32:28 > 0:32:32that you can use with any model of tablet or smartphone.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35It offers five positions - for example,
0:32:35 > 0:32:37ideal for in the kitchen,
0:32:37 > 0:32:38following a recipe or what have you -
0:32:38 > 0:32:39all the way up to...
0:32:41 > 0:32:45..a vertical position, ideal for watching movies
0:32:45 > 0:32:46or looking at photos.
0:32:48 > 0:32:53I'm having considerable success now selling Plinth through e-commerce,
0:32:53 > 0:32:56both on Amazon and through the My Plinth website.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59Although my business is now moving into profit,
0:32:59 > 0:33:01with your help and expertise,
0:33:01 > 0:33:05we could go there a lot further and faster than I can on my own.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08So I've got some samples, which you might like to have a play with.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13Taking a stand in the Den is product designer
0:33:13 > 0:33:15and business one man band John Bull.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17Would you like to choose a colour?
0:33:17 > 0:33:21He's overcome his stage fright to get through his pitch
0:33:21 > 0:33:27and offer up 20% of his tablet-stand company for a £50,000 investment.
0:33:27 > 0:33:28Thanks very much.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32Will the former Merchant Navy Officer's business idea
0:33:32 > 0:33:34sink or swim?
0:33:34 > 0:33:38Suited and booted Peter Jones has a sartorial query to kick things off.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44John. What's the tattoo?
0:33:44 > 0:33:46I was an officer in the Merchant Navy for eight years
0:33:46 > 0:33:48before embarking on my design career.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50And I didn't want to be in a suit.
0:33:51 > 0:33:53Oh, why's that, what's wrong with a suit?
0:33:53 > 0:33:56Uh... Nothing is wrong with a suit, Peter.
0:33:56 > 0:33:58- I'm pleased you said that, John. - But it's not me.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00I wanted you to see me as me.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03I believe I've got a thumping good product here.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05My customers tell me I've got a thumping good product here.
0:34:05 > 0:34:10And I have had a really, really difficult last two years,
0:34:10 > 0:34:14moving from a place where I was designing something,
0:34:14 > 0:34:18which, in many ways, looking back now, was the easy bit.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21Actually trying to find a market, I have found very challenging.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24I can see that, but have you come here for investment or counselling?
0:34:28 > 0:34:32The entrepreneur is reminded in no uncertain terms that the Den
0:34:32 > 0:34:34is no place for a hard-luck story.
0:34:36 > 0:34:40Touker Suleyman wants to get the pitch back on track.
0:34:42 > 0:34:43John. Touker.
0:34:43 > 0:34:45- Yes, sir.- How many have you sold?
0:34:48 > 0:34:49About 8,000 so far.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52And what did you sell last month?
0:34:52 > 0:34:53About 1,000, I think.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55What does it sell for?
0:34:55 > 0:34:58It retails at £14.95 for the standard one.
0:34:58 > 0:35:00- £14.95?- Mm-hm.
0:35:00 > 0:35:01Cost?
0:35:03 > 0:35:05What, the manufacturing cost?
0:35:05 > 0:35:07Yeah, what does it cost you?
0:35:07 > 0:35:08Er...
0:35:13 > 0:35:17Er, that's not something I'm happy to go on television.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22Really? But I thought you were here for an investment?
0:35:22 > 0:35:26Yes, I'd be very happy to discuss that, but that's a commercially...
0:35:26 > 0:35:28I think that's a commercially sensitive....
0:35:28 > 0:35:30But I might well say I'm out before we discuss it.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36- Yeah.- How am I supposed to know if it's profitable?
0:35:37 > 0:35:40The margin, I can tell you the margins that I'm making,
0:35:40 > 0:35:43- if that's helpful.- OK, gross margin.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45£4.
0:35:45 > 0:35:49What sales price do you need to sell it at to get a £4 gross margin?
0:35:49 > 0:35:51£14.95 is the retail price...
0:35:51 > 0:35:55- Including VAT?- ..is the retail price including VAT.
0:35:55 > 0:35:56Right. So take 20% off that.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58Yeah, so that brings it down to £12.50.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01- £12.50.- Yeah.- What price do you sell to the distributor at?
0:36:01 > 0:36:02About £6.50.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04- And you make- £4? Yeah.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06So your cost price for the product is £2.50.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08It's... It's in that area, yeah.
0:36:11 > 0:36:12Wasn't that difficult, John, was it?
0:36:12 > 0:36:15No, it's not that... No, no, granted.
0:36:17 > 0:36:19Guarded answers from the entrepreneur
0:36:19 > 0:36:22lead to a tense early exchange with the Dragons
0:36:22 > 0:36:25over his reluctance to divulge his margins.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30Now Sarah Willingham wants to get to the bottom
0:36:30 > 0:36:32of John's moderate online sales.
0:36:36 > 0:36:38As a consumer, if I'm going in and I'm Googling,
0:36:38 > 0:36:43- or I want to find "best tablet stand"...- Mm-hm.
0:36:43 > 0:36:45..I assume you don't even feature.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50I'm either on page one or at the top of page two of Google.
0:36:50 > 0:36:52I'm flabbergasted by that.
0:36:55 > 0:36:57You see, you're selling 1,000 units per month.
0:36:57 > 0:36:59Yeah.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01How many of those have come through those searches?
0:37:01 > 0:37:04- Very, very few.- But when somebody goes into Google,
0:37:04 > 0:37:06- you come up the first page?- Yeah.
0:37:06 > 0:37:08That doesn't... It doesn't stack up.
0:37:11 > 0:37:15The problem is that there are a lot of stands.
0:37:15 > 0:37:16Yes.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20And trying to make your product
0:37:20 > 0:37:23- stand out against the rest of those...- Yes.
0:37:23 > 0:37:27..is going to be really, really, REALLY tough.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33Which is why I'm here, because this is what you guys are good at.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36- But there has to be... - And I am clearly not.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39No, I completely agree with you, but I'm a businessperson,
0:37:39 > 0:37:40not a magician.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45Doubts over whether the Plinth can hold its own
0:37:45 > 0:37:49in a crowded marketplace are proving difficult to shake off.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52The Dragons may have conjured up some lucrative business deals
0:37:52 > 0:37:56in their time, but will Nick Jenkins offer up the money
0:37:56 > 0:37:58and the marketing magic that John needs?
0:38:02 > 0:38:06The product looks fine, but my problem is that
0:38:06 > 0:38:09- I like investing in people.- Yes.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12I like investing in people and helping them go on their journey to
0:38:12 > 0:38:14become great entrepreneurs. And I think you're a great designer,
0:38:14 > 0:38:18I think the packaging and everything is absolutely fine but I just don't
0:38:18 > 0:38:21feel that you're going to be able to take my advice and then run with it
0:38:21 > 0:38:22in six months or a year's time,
0:38:22 > 0:38:24and then I can leave you to get on with it.
0:38:24 > 0:38:28I don't feel I'd be creating a business that I could walk away from
0:38:28 > 0:38:34fairly soon. And so, I'm afraid, for that reason, I'm out.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39Nick Jenkins calls time on the tablet stand
0:38:39 > 0:38:42and becomes the first Dragon to leave the negotiations.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48And it appears that Sarah Willingham has made up her mind.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54Honesty, I think it's going to be really difficult,
0:38:54 > 0:38:56because there are so many tablet stands.
0:38:56 > 0:38:58And it's very, very difficult to stand out.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00Yeah.
0:39:00 > 0:39:01If I'm being completely honest,
0:39:01 > 0:39:04I think that you would need a LOT of time,
0:39:04 > 0:39:05I really do.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11So for those reasons, it's not an investment opportunity for me,
0:39:11 > 0:39:13- I'm afraid, so I'm out.- OK.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15- But good luck.- All right, Sarah, thank you.
0:39:16 > 0:39:20Another Dragon overboard as the ex-Merchant Navy man's
0:39:20 > 0:39:24business proposition also fails to win over Sarah Willingham.
0:39:25 > 0:39:27Which way will Touker Suleyman go?
0:39:33 > 0:39:35You are a talented designer.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37Thank you.
0:39:37 > 0:39:40The good thing that you said was that you're now into profit.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42Yeah. We have had several, er...
0:39:43 > 0:39:46..problems with production,
0:39:46 > 0:39:49and we've had machinery breakdowns and that type of thing.
0:39:49 > 0:39:53Then I had stock, but I was finding it very difficult to sell them.
0:39:55 > 0:39:56Oh, really?
0:39:59 > 0:40:03John, there is a grave, you're now two foot in the grave.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05I mean, you're digging your grave.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08- Why?- Well, you're looking for investment.- Yeah.
0:40:08 > 0:40:11But all you've given me is just the things that have gone wrong.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16I'm not going to invest today. I'm out.
0:40:18 > 0:40:19OK. Thank you, Touker.
0:40:23 > 0:40:26John, I think this is a really nicely made product.
0:40:26 > 0:40:30- Yeah.- I love your packaging.- Yeah. - I love the whole piece.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33I still don't think you're going to sell a lot of them.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38It's not going to be as big as you think it's going to be,
0:40:38 > 0:40:40and for an investor,
0:40:40 > 0:40:42the opportunity, I don't think is going to be big enough.
0:40:43 > 0:40:47- OK.- So I'm really sorry, John, but I won't be investing.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49- I'm out.- That's OK, thank you.
0:40:51 > 0:40:55John's last hope in the Den is tech giant Peter Jones.
0:40:55 > 0:40:58Is he ready to throw the entrepreneur a lifeline?
0:41:03 > 0:41:06Can I just say, I see a lot of these products,
0:41:06 > 0:41:08and I think the product is exceptional.
0:41:10 > 0:41:12- Thank you.- I have not seen something as well designed,
0:41:12 > 0:41:14with the intricacies that you've got
0:41:14 > 0:41:17and the level of design that's gone into that,
0:41:17 > 0:41:19I don't think I've seen many things as good.
0:41:19 > 0:41:20Thank you.
0:41:23 > 0:41:27But most people with iPads or with tablets, they buy covers,
0:41:27 > 0:41:28or a cover accessory.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32And typically, those covers are
0:41:32 > 0:41:35made well enough to give you a stand.
0:41:35 > 0:41:36- Yes.- As you know.- Yes.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38So I don't think you're going to sell a lot of them.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43And there's not going to be a volume enough for an investor to make
0:41:43 > 0:41:45- any money on it.- OK.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49- OK.- It's not for me, John. I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:41:52 > 0:41:53OK, thank you.
0:41:55 > 0:41:57Praise for the product, but in the end,
0:41:57 > 0:42:02the tablet stand business just didn't stack up for the Dragons.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04John leaves the Den with nothing.
0:42:06 > 0:42:07Great product, small potential.
0:42:07 > 0:42:09Yeah.
0:42:09 > 0:42:11To me, it's a highly investable product,
0:42:11 > 0:42:13I think it's a pity that they didn't run with that.
0:42:13 > 0:42:17But an entrepreneur gets right back up, so I'm having a good go at it.
0:42:21 > 0:42:25Next into the Den is Cambridge engineering graduate Andrew Nowell.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28He's combined his passion for all things techie
0:42:28 > 0:42:31and all things doggy, and come up with a business he believes
0:42:31 > 0:42:34will take the pet care world by storm.
0:42:35 > 0:42:36Good girls!
0:42:36 > 0:42:39Bramble, sit. Sit.
0:42:39 > 0:42:40Hazel, sit.
0:42:41 > 0:42:43Our valuation may be high,
0:42:43 > 0:42:45but an incredible amount of work has gone into the product.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49Good girls. There's four founders to the business,
0:42:49 > 0:42:53and between us we've got over 50 years of developing products.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56Hazel, Bramble, come.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58We've got to show the Dragons our ambition -
0:42:58 > 0:43:00we don't want to be a £10 million company,
0:43:00 > 0:43:02we want to be a £100 million company,
0:43:02 > 0:43:03and that is definitely achievable.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10I bet the Dragons are thinking, what's coming in?
0:43:10 > 0:43:11I know! I know.
0:43:14 > 0:43:16OK, Hazel, Bramble, what's this?
0:43:17 > 0:43:19Sit, sit.
0:43:28 > 0:43:31Go through. Yes, Hazel, come!
0:43:31 > 0:43:32Come, Hazel. Ready, Hazel?
0:43:32 > 0:43:35Weave, come on. Good, Hazel, up!
0:43:35 > 0:43:37- Yes. Sit.- Hooray! Well done.
0:43:37 > 0:43:38- Amazing.- Well done, Hazel.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41Bramble, up! Bramble, jump!
0:43:41 > 0:43:45Bramble, up! Good dog!
0:43:45 > 0:43:47Before you say anything, there's my money!
0:43:47 > 0:43:48- You've got dogs, there's my money! - LAUGHTER
0:43:48 > 0:43:50Sit. Come.
0:43:50 > 0:43:52- Thank you, Janey. - Thanks.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54Come on, girls.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57Dragons, I'm Andrew Nowell from PitPat.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00And I'm here today to ask for £150,000
0:44:00 > 0:44:03in return for 7.5% of the company.
0:44:03 > 0:44:08Our goal at PitPat is simple. It's to improve pet care with technology.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11Wearable devices have revolutionised how we keep fit and exercise,
0:44:11 > 0:44:15and the pet tech revolution is not far behind.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18The amazing Hazel and Bramble have just been demonstrating our first
0:44:18 > 0:44:20product - an activity monitor for dogs.
0:44:21 > 0:44:22So, how does it work?
0:44:22 > 0:44:24Essentially, it's like a canine Fitbit.
0:44:24 > 0:44:27You'll see there's a small lightweight device which is attached
0:44:27 > 0:44:30to their collars, and it's constantly measuring their motion.
0:44:30 > 0:44:33And the advanced algorithms can tell the difference between walking,
0:44:33 > 0:44:36running, resting and playing.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40All of this data is then synced to a free app on your phone.
0:44:41 > 0:44:44So the first thing you do is set up a profile for your dog.
0:44:44 > 0:44:48And then from this, it looks up a guideline tailored to your dog.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51So, looking at the history, you get a breakdown of the activities.
0:44:51 > 0:44:54And this is great for if you've ever been apart from your dog, so, say,
0:44:54 > 0:44:57for example, if you asked your kids to take the dogs out,
0:44:57 > 0:45:00did they actually do it? Or you've put your dog into kennels,
0:45:00 > 0:45:02did they exercise them or did they leave them in?
0:45:03 > 0:45:06There's four founders to the business, and what we're doing
0:45:06 > 0:45:09at PitPat has the ability to change pet care forever,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11and we'd like to welcome a Dragon into our pack.
0:45:14 > 0:45:16Bramble, basket.
0:45:16 > 0:45:20A pitch with the cute factor from engineering graduate Andrew Nowell.
0:45:20 > 0:45:22Can I not have mine delivered by a dog?
0:45:22 > 0:45:24Unfortunately we don't have enough dogs!
0:45:24 > 0:45:29He's asking for £150,000 for just 7.5% of his business
0:45:29 > 0:45:32selling canine activity monitors.
0:45:32 > 0:45:33Thank you.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36The young entrepreneur has put a £2 million valuation on the
0:45:36 > 0:45:39business, but can his small invention
0:45:39 > 0:45:41deliver on such big ambition?
0:45:41 > 0:45:46- Come on, then.- Nick Jenkins is first to take the lead with the questions.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55This, on the surface of it, looks like a really interesting product,
0:45:55 > 0:45:58and I bought a dog device, a dog tracking device for my dog.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01Brilliant, except that it doesn't work unless there's 4G.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05So I was a little bit disappointed by the technical aspects.
0:46:05 > 0:46:10- Yeah.- What I would love to understand is the practicality of
0:46:10 > 0:46:14what this needs in order for it to work seamlessly.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16So, there's some incredible innovation which has gone into
0:46:16 > 0:46:19the product to address some of the challenges you raised.
0:46:19 > 0:46:21So, GPS products, you have to recharge them.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24Our product's got a battery life of a year,
0:46:24 > 0:46:26so you can leave it on the collar all the time.
0:46:26 > 0:46:29And this is unheard of for a wearable device.
0:46:29 > 0:46:32People will tolerate recharging their own wearables,
0:46:32 > 0:46:35they won't tolerate charging a pet wearable.
0:46:35 > 0:46:38So, the device is constantly storing all the data away.
0:46:38 > 0:46:39To actually sync it to your phone,
0:46:39 > 0:46:41you have to press the button on the device,
0:46:41 > 0:46:44and then it transfers all the data to the phone over Bluetooth.
0:46:44 > 0:46:49So, this, regardless of mobile signal, regardless of wireless,
0:46:49 > 0:46:52this will work and record whatever is going on with my dog,
0:46:52 > 0:46:54for a whole week or two weeks when I'm away on holiday?
0:46:54 > 0:46:57- Ten days.- And I get back and find out that my dog has been
0:46:57 > 0:46:58- properly looked after.- Yeah.
0:47:00 > 0:47:01OK.
0:47:02 > 0:47:07A solid start for the entrepreneur as a gadget-loving Nick Jenkins
0:47:07 > 0:47:09warms to the product's capabilities.
0:47:10 > 0:47:15But Peter Jones needs convincing on how unique Andrew's technology is.
0:47:18 > 0:47:21What is the specific IP that you believe that you've got?
0:47:21 > 0:47:24So, it's how to do the measurement at low power.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27No, no, no, but it's simple technology.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29So what have you got in terms of your IP?
0:47:29 > 0:47:33- That's worth £2 million?- It's actually having the product, ready,
0:47:33 > 0:47:34- on the market.- That's nonsense,
0:47:34 > 0:47:36what's the IP that you own that's valuable?
0:47:39 > 0:47:42I would say it is the position the business is in,
0:47:42 > 0:47:44and all the work which has gone into it,
0:47:44 > 0:47:46and the opportunities we're bringing to the table.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51You've come in here with the most ridiculous valuation,
0:47:51 > 0:47:52at £2 million.
0:47:54 > 0:47:55Yes.
0:47:59 > 0:48:01You've sold 1,500 units.
0:48:01 > 0:48:02- Yeah.- Right.
0:48:03 > 0:48:07So what is the IP that you own that's proprietary,
0:48:07 > 0:48:09that actually is valuable, other than,
0:48:09 > 0:48:11"I've got a product ready to go to the market
0:48:11 > 0:48:12"and I've sold 1,500 units
0:48:12 > 0:48:15"and that's why I justify a valuation of £2 million today"?
0:48:31 > 0:48:33I'm not sure the best way to answer that question
0:48:33 > 0:48:35other than what I have done already.
0:48:39 > 0:48:42The entrepreneur maintains his composure
0:48:42 > 0:48:45in the face of a dogged Peter Jones.
0:48:45 > 0:48:49And retail giant Touker Suleyman isn't prepared to let up on
0:48:49 > 0:48:51the £2 million valuation issue, either.
0:48:56 > 0:48:58Andrew. You're coming here and saying
0:48:58 > 0:49:03you want us not to be a passive investor, you want us to add value.
0:49:03 > 0:49:05- Yeah.- But you're only offering 7.5%.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09It doesn't give me the incentive...
0:49:10 > 0:49:13..to roll up my sleeves and work with you
0:49:13 > 0:49:16and catapult you to where you want to be
0:49:16 > 0:49:17quicker than you're going to be.
0:49:17 > 0:49:19Yeah.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22I think your valuation is...crazy.
0:49:23 > 0:49:25And for that reason, I'm out.
0:49:29 > 0:49:31Andrew, I don't have dogs -
0:49:31 > 0:49:33I struggle to keep a goldfish alive, to be honest.
0:49:33 > 0:49:36I think four kids and a dog would completely tip the balance
0:49:36 > 0:49:40in my house. I will never be a user of this, I can't,
0:49:40 > 0:49:42it's... It's just not for me.
0:49:43 > 0:49:46- Yep.- So I won't be investing.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48- Good luck.- Thank you.
0:49:48 > 0:49:49I'm out.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54Two Dragons walk away from a deal.
0:49:57 > 0:49:59Will Deborah Meaden have a different take on the invention?
0:50:04 > 0:50:06Personally, Andrew, I think it's great.
0:50:07 > 0:50:09- Thank you.- I think it's really good.
0:50:09 > 0:50:12So have you been talking to any of the big players?
0:50:12 > 0:50:14Yeah, so we're talking to Pets At Home,
0:50:14 > 0:50:16Dixons have agreed to stock it online.
0:50:16 > 0:50:19And so have Argos, to trial it, and then John Lewis,
0:50:19 > 0:50:22we failed in their first range review and we're trying again.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24They want a more premium feel.
0:50:24 > 0:50:26Premium feel or premium price?
0:50:26 > 0:50:30They'd like both, but we want to stay true to the price point.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33My only fear is we've come in here not asking for enough money,
0:50:33 > 0:50:34because there's a lot of work to do.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37No, you need to get somebody in and you need to get somebody engaged,
0:50:37 > 0:50:39you're doing the right thing.
0:50:41 > 0:50:44Reassuring words from Deborah Meaden.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47But the real value of this business lies in the data
0:50:47 > 0:50:49the doggy device is storing.
0:50:49 > 0:50:53Online innovator Nick Jenkins wants to know how Andrew
0:50:53 > 0:50:55plans to exploit it.
0:50:56 > 0:50:58Can I ask you about...
0:50:59 > 0:51:02..the usage on the units that you've got out there at the moment?
0:51:02 > 0:51:04- Yeah.- What's the analysis that you've done
0:51:04 > 0:51:05on the level of engagement to date?
0:51:05 > 0:51:09We don't know that yet, we're not sending data away from the app.
0:51:09 > 0:51:13- Sorry?- We're not transmitting usage data back from the app yet.
0:51:13 > 0:51:15We know how many people have downloaded it,
0:51:15 > 0:51:18we don't know how often they use it.
0:51:18 > 0:51:21- That's one of the things we're looking to add.- Wow. OK.
0:51:25 > 0:51:26There's a lot more work to do,
0:51:26 > 0:51:28but the things we're aiming for are massive.
0:51:28 > 0:51:30Just imagine an app where it's suggesting
0:51:30 > 0:51:35what dog food you should get, and how much you should feed your dog,
0:51:35 > 0:51:36based on real, live data.
0:51:36 > 0:51:38I mean, it's changing pet care.
0:51:40 > 0:51:44The entrepreneur keeps on fighting as the Dragon showing
0:51:44 > 0:51:47the most interest in the device uncovers a possible weak spot.
0:51:49 > 0:51:52Technology millionaire Peter Jones has been less enthusiastic
0:51:52 > 0:51:54about the product so far.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57Has Andrew's passionate defence of his business
0:51:57 > 0:51:59done anything to win him round?
0:52:02 > 0:52:04I'm going to tell you where I am, Andrew.
0:52:04 > 0:52:08Your valuation is ridiculous.
0:52:11 > 0:52:14What you do have, I think, though, is you.
0:52:17 > 0:52:18And I think you are very impressive.
0:52:20 > 0:52:24If you'd come in and said, "I want £50,000 to £100,000,
0:52:24 > 0:52:28"and I'm offering 25, 30% of my company,"
0:52:28 > 0:52:30I actually might be tempted.
0:52:32 > 0:52:36- Understood.- But I'm not going to invest in you. I'm out.
0:52:39 > 0:52:43The engineer-cum-entrepreneur fails to secure Peter Jones,
0:52:43 > 0:52:45who becomes the third Dragon to walk away.
0:52:46 > 0:52:50Just Deborah Meaden and Nick Jenkins now remain.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57Andrew, can I throw you a bone here?
0:52:57 > 0:52:59Cos I love this business.
0:53:00 > 0:53:04But I think what you are missing is strategic thinking around how you're
0:53:04 > 0:53:06going to maximise this opportunity.
0:53:06 > 0:53:10And I think that that's what a Dragon can do -
0:53:10 > 0:53:12is to give this the best chance of success.
0:53:15 > 0:53:17So I think we've identified where we can add some value.
0:53:25 > 0:53:27I'm going to make you an offer.
0:53:34 > 0:53:36I'll offer you half of the money
0:53:36 > 0:53:37for 10%.
0:53:38 > 0:53:39Thank you.
0:53:44 > 0:53:48The bit I really like is with the data you're capturing,
0:53:48 > 0:53:50this could become the platform.
0:53:50 > 0:53:53Where there is a mass data of pets.
0:53:55 > 0:53:57Lost pets, registering lost pets,
0:53:57 > 0:54:01all of those things that you could actually say, we are the platform.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12I'm going to offer you 75,000 for 10%.
0:54:14 > 0:54:16Thank you for your offers.
0:54:19 > 0:54:24Deborah Meaden and Nick Jenkins join forces and between them offer
0:54:24 > 0:54:28all of the £150,000 that Andrew needs.
0:54:28 > 0:54:32But their collective demand of 20% equity is way more
0:54:32 > 0:54:34than the 7.5% on offer.
0:54:36 > 0:54:37Can Andrew secure a deal
0:54:37 > 0:54:40that satisfies all of the other stakeholders?
0:54:44 > 0:54:49Um. So, my only concern is,
0:54:49 > 0:54:51I've got four shareholders already,
0:54:51 > 0:54:53and I'm sure we won't grow as quickly
0:54:53 > 0:54:55or go on to do as big a thing.
0:54:55 > 0:54:59But unless you can improve, I think we'll choose to reject.
0:54:59 > 0:55:00Well, Andrew, you need headspace.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03- Yeah.- This is an important decision for you,
0:55:03 > 0:55:04and you've got other investors.
0:55:04 > 0:55:07It sometimes is easier just to think when you're in your own head,
0:55:07 > 0:55:09not staring at five people staring at you.
0:55:14 > 0:55:15Do you want to go and talk to the wall?
0:55:19 > 0:55:21Ha-ha. Uh.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32I have a limit which we discussed with the shareholders in advance,
0:55:32 > 0:55:35and it's off what you're offering and I don't want to...
0:55:35 > 0:55:36Well, make us a counter offer.
0:55:38 > 0:55:39So, it was 12.5%.
0:56:05 > 0:56:07It's not, it's just not, Nick, it's just not...
0:56:10 > 0:56:11..for me. It might be for you.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21Andrew, really, really good product.
0:56:23 > 0:56:25But I won't be investing, so I'm out.
0:56:27 > 0:56:30I think we'll have to leave it as the fact that you have some big fans
0:56:30 > 0:56:32of the product.
0:56:34 > 0:56:35But I'm out as well.
0:56:37 > 0:56:39Thank you very much for your time.
0:56:42 > 0:56:45Despite two Dragons hungry for a deal,
0:56:45 > 0:56:48the entrepreneur chose his own shareholders over them
0:56:48 > 0:56:51and wouldn't move enough on the valuation.
0:56:51 > 0:56:52He leaves with nothing.
0:56:52 > 0:56:54There's nothing unique about tracking dogs.
0:56:54 > 0:56:56I think you just saved yourself 150 grand.
0:56:56 > 0:56:57I really liked it.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02That was definitely a battle.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05They did give a good valuation and a good offer, but we're aiming higher.
0:57:07 > 0:57:09We may get two dogs for the office,
0:57:09 > 0:57:10and call them Deborah and Nick,
0:57:10 > 0:57:12just to remind us of what we turned down.
0:57:16 > 0:57:20A varied range of products in the Den and, it's fair to say,
0:57:20 > 0:57:23a varied range of reactions, too.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27A tablet stand and light fitting failed to illuminate the Dragons.
0:57:27 > 0:57:31A doggy device led to offers but didn't deliver a deal,
0:57:31 > 0:57:34while a baby skin care range did.
0:57:34 > 0:57:36And that's what the Den is all about.
0:57:36 > 0:57:37Taking baby businesses
0:57:37 > 0:57:40and giving them the chance to grow into adulthood.
0:57:40 > 0:57:41Good luck to them all.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46Coming up next time...
0:57:46 > 0:57:49The conversation is not for later. The conversation is now.
0:57:51 > 0:57:54- You know my answer.- Yeah.
0:57:55 > 0:57:57- I'm not prepared to do that today. - No.- Pardon?
0:57:57 > 0:58:01- That's not the right answer. - That's not the right answer?
0:58:01 > 0:58:04What are you going to do if you don't get investment?
0:58:04 > 0:58:06- It's not going to work. - I'm going to make you an offer.
0:58:06 > 0:58:09Well, I think I might pitch in with an offer as well.
0:58:09 > 0:58:10I'm going to make you an offer,
0:58:10 > 0:58:13and it's definitely an offer that I think that you should accept.
0:58:13 > 0:58:14Next!
0:58:14 > 0:58:15That went well!