0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight on Dragons' Den...
0:00:08 > 0:00:10It's bordering on the ridiculous.
0:00:10 > 0:00:12I disagree with him.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15You've come in, you said "This is quicker than anything else."
0:00:15 > 0:00:17And I know it's not.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20I'm just saying to myself, he's not here for the money.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22That's not actually correct.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Which bit of that picture
0:00:25 > 0:00:29would you think that any sane investor would get?
0:00:29 > 0:00:32That's really clever, that's brilliant.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34That's the most ridiculous thing
0:00:34 > 0:00:37that's ever come into the Den that's got investment.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11Welcome to Dragons' Den.
0:01:11 > 0:01:14It's here the business is done.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Once those lift doors open,
0:01:16 > 0:01:20entrepreneurs' fortunes can be made or their dreams can be shattered.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28First into the Den is a Londoner Dan Hubert,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31an entrepreneur on an upward trajectory.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35I don't want just a sounding board, I want a springboard, as well.
0:01:35 > 0:01:39So it's that person who can put some propane into my rocket.
0:01:41 > 0:01:46And Dan is aiming high when it comes to the valuation of his company.
0:01:46 > 0:01:50I'm prepared to defend my valuation all the way.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52They will probably scoff a little bit,
0:01:52 > 0:01:55but it's understanding the true depth our business
0:01:55 > 0:01:57and then the true potential.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59But will the Dragons,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03notoriously fiery when it comes to a business' price tag,
0:02:03 > 0:02:05be convinced his enterprise is worth it?
0:02:13 > 0:02:16My name's Dan Hubert, I'm the founder of AppyParking.
0:02:16 > 0:02:21Today, I'm here to ask for £200,000 in return for 2% equity.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26Drivers are currently lost when it comes to parking.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29And as a result of all this confusion,
0:02:29 > 0:02:34the average Brit in their lifetime wastes 347 days
0:02:34 > 0:02:39and £37,000 on fuel, looking for that elusive parking spot.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43AppyParking isn't like any other parking app.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47Imagine being able to drive into any city
0:02:47 > 0:02:51and understand every parking rule, even on single yellow lines.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54Imagine being disabled, or owning an electric car or motorbike,
0:02:54 > 0:02:58and having every destination mapped out in the palm of your hand.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Imagine being able to choose between on and off-street,
0:03:01 > 0:03:03or the cheapest or the nearest.
0:03:03 > 0:03:05What if the roads had sensors
0:03:05 > 0:03:08and they told you if there was a free bay or not,
0:03:08 > 0:03:12and you could drive into that free bay and your car automatically
0:03:12 > 0:03:13took a payment?
0:03:13 > 0:03:17What if the average parking time was reduced from 20 minutes
0:03:17 > 0:03:19down to 30 seconds?
0:03:19 > 0:03:21AppyParking is all of these solutions.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25AppyParking is available via a free website
0:03:25 > 0:03:26or award-winning app,
0:03:26 > 0:03:30that gets downloaded tens of thousands of times each month.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33We also license a parking data feed,
0:03:33 > 0:03:37which can be consumed by fleet companies and car manufacturers.
0:03:37 > 0:03:42The European parking market is worth £33 billion, and in the UK,
0:03:42 > 0:03:46900 billion by 2025.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49Your investment will go towards making AppyParking
0:03:49 > 0:03:52into the world's-best parking marketplace,
0:03:52 > 0:03:56saving drivers time, money, stress and parking tickets.
0:03:56 > 0:04:00Thank you for listening, and I look forward to your questions.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03A finely-tuned pitch from Dan Hubert.
0:04:03 > 0:04:06- Thank you.- Don't worry.- A parking ticket?- It's not real, don't worry.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08The dapper entrepreneur behind the app
0:04:08 > 0:04:11that aims to solve our parking dilemmas.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15He's offering just 2% equity
0:04:15 > 0:04:19in exchange for a hefty £200,000 investment.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21- Oh, no, not another one. - Not another one!
0:04:21 > 0:04:23THEY CHUCKLE
0:04:23 > 0:04:27Sarah Willingham wants to get a grasp of how his app operates.
0:04:31 > 0:04:34So, did you say you've got national coverage now?
0:04:34 > 0:04:35Well, it's 11 cities.
0:04:35 > 0:04:36So how does it work,
0:04:36 > 0:04:38because parking, it's not the same in every street,
0:04:38 > 0:04:41- in every corner, in every city?- Yeah.
0:04:41 > 0:04:46Yeah, so we have two levels of data, so the consumer app, basically,
0:04:46 > 0:04:49has pins, like, you know, here's a spot, here's a spot.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53The prices, it's got a pay-by-phone provider linked into it.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56And it's got zones as well, so every street is a control parking zone.
0:04:56 > 0:05:00Currently, you can say, yes, there is parking on this street?
0:05:00 > 0:05:03Yes, we are mapping every on-street and off-street car park,
0:05:03 > 0:05:06and I can show you exactly the spot that's right for you, for price,
0:05:06 > 0:05:09- time of day, that sort of stuff. - Because I use apps, at the moment,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12when I'm in London, that tell me where my nearest parking is.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15That actually doesn't give you controlled hours...
0:05:15 > 0:05:18No, no, absolutely, it's nowhere near the sophistication
0:05:18 > 0:05:20- of yours at all. - All they are is a payment gateway.
0:05:20 > 0:05:24We have a payment gateway built into our parking knowledge.
0:05:24 > 0:05:27There's another thing I want to understand about this model,
0:05:27 > 0:05:28which is, how do you...
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Are you able to tell me where there is an empty parking space?
0:05:31 > 0:05:32- Yes.- How do you do that?
0:05:34 > 0:05:36So, this is an on-street sensor,
0:05:36 > 0:05:38so we've just rolled out 72 of these into Coventry,
0:05:38 > 0:05:41we've put every single disabled bay in Coventry.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45So the answer is, you can do this by using sensors?
0:05:45 > 0:05:49- Yes.- OK. Until every parking space has a sensor,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52what is the other way you can tell if there's an empty parking space?
0:05:52 > 0:05:55We just currently did a solution with Westminster,
0:05:55 > 0:05:57Vodafone and Pimlico Plumbers,
0:05:57 > 0:06:01and this basically turns vehicles into sensors.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05OK, I grant you that's really clever, that's brilliant.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10A credible app and cutting-edge sensor technology
0:06:10 > 0:06:14make a positive impression on online innovator Nick Jenkins.
0:06:16 > 0:06:20But has Deborah Meaden sensed a business that will burn money?
0:06:23 > 0:06:25You're still in development,
0:06:25 > 0:06:27and you're obviously looking to raise 200,000 today.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30How much more money do you think it's actually going to take?
0:06:30 > 0:06:34Right, OK, so we would probably need about 20...
0:06:34 > 0:06:36It'd be about three million.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41You must have gone quite a long way with this already.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44- Yeah, we've raised 1.2 million. - Where from?
0:06:44 > 0:06:47From angels and then from institutional investors as well.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50- So you've got institutional investors on board?- Yes.- OK, right.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53What was the last valuation you brought money into the company at?
0:06:53 > 0:06:55- Four million, basically. - Four million, OK.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57OK, do you know how this works in Dragons' Den?
0:06:57 > 0:07:02Essentially, we're expected to give our time, contacts and expertise...
0:07:02 > 0:07:04- Mhm.- And in return for that, you know what,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06kind of don't expect to get a valuation
0:07:06 > 0:07:09which is twice as much as the last round.
0:07:11 > 0:07:15So, just to be clear, that's been a year or more of progress.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17OK, what are your figures in terms of revenue?
0:07:17 > 0:07:20- So we're projected for half a million this year.- OK.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23And then next year, we're projected for two million,
0:07:23 > 0:07:25and then the year after that, five million.
0:07:25 > 0:07:27- Five million profit?- Yes.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30It was a four million profit, it'll be a million running costs.
0:07:30 > 0:07:31Wow.
0:07:33 > 0:07:38Confident financial projections keep Nick Jenkins onside.
0:07:38 > 0:07:39For now.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42But has Deborah Meaden been able to get past her concerns
0:07:42 > 0:07:45over Dan's cash-guzzling business model?
0:07:47 > 0:07:51It's quite a resource-hungry business, isn't it?
0:07:51 > 0:07:54In terms of building this thing.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56I think you've got a big mountain to climb.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03I've invested in, you know, big, uber websites, I get what it takes.
0:08:03 > 0:08:08I genuinely think that your estimation
0:08:08 > 0:08:10of how much you want,
0:08:10 > 0:08:13in my experience, it takes twice as much and twice as long.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18You're going to need a lot more cash than it's ever going to interest me.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20I won't be investing, I'm out.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26Deborah Meaden becomes the first Dragon to break cover
0:08:26 > 0:08:29and state her position.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32Can Sarah Willingham find a place for the parking app
0:08:32 > 0:08:34in her online business portfolio?
0:08:39 > 0:08:42I think it's really good, I think you're obviously very, very good.
0:08:42 > 0:08:45I mean...but you don't doubt that for a minute either.
0:08:47 > 0:08:52I think, for me, it's about finding businesses that I can add value to.
0:08:52 > 0:08:56- Yeah.- With people that I can work with that actually need my help.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59- Mm.- I love that.
0:08:59 > 0:09:00And that's not who you are.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03You've got to go out and raise lots more money,
0:09:03 > 0:09:07so either I continue to invest as a very passive investor,
0:09:07 > 0:09:12or I get diluted by an enormous amount very, very quickly.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14Yes.
0:09:14 > 0:09:15It's not for me, I'm out.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22Sarah Willingham joins Deborah Meaden in exiting the deal,
0:09:22 > 0:09:24with concerns this isn't a business
0:09:24 > 0:09:27that would benefit from her hands-on approach.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31The £10 million valuation is clearly an issue in the Den.
0:09:31 > 0:09:35Can Touker Suleyman find a way to drive through a deal?
0:09:36 > 0:09:40To get a Dragon on board, you'd have to really look at your evaluation
0:09:40 > 0:09:44because hopefully we'll add some value.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48And I'm just saying to myself, "He's not here for the money."
0:09:48 > 0:09:51That's not actually correct.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55So are you willing to give up 15% of your business for 200,000?
0:09:56 > 0:09:58- No.- Well, exactly.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00We're all impressed with the technology.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04But...I feel, uh,
0:10:04 > 0:10:07this is just a passive investment you're looking for.
0:10:07 > 0:10:11And for that reason, Dan, I'm not going to invest in you and I'm out.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16With the entrepreneur unwilling to negotiate,
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Touker Suleyman also puts the brakes on a deal.
0:10:21 > 0:10:25Peter Jones, with his powerful black book of contacts in the world
0:10:25 > 0:10:30of technology, has so far remained silent.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32Time for some nifty manoeuvring.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36How much equity have you got yourself in the business?
0:10:36 > 0:10:38I've got 46.85 or something.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41So it wouldn't affect or offend your other shareholders
0:10:41 > 0:10:43if you decided to dilute yourself.
0:10:43 > 0:10:45Just to prove Touker's point.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48- Mm-hmm.- So why would that be such a big thing for you?
0:10:48 > 0:10:49Yeah, that's a valid question.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53And I guess it really depends on sort of...limits.
0:10:54 > 0:10:57Well, Dan, I'm going to test that limit.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59And the reason why I'm going to test that limit is because
0:10:59 > 0:11:03I... I like it a lot, I think you're onto something.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10But there is a risk to anything here,
0:11:10 > 0:11:15and there are many companies such as yourselves, as you will know,
0:11:15 > 0:11:16that, sadly,
0:11:16 > 0:11:18don't get anywhere.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23I'm not convinced that you're one of those.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27I genuinely believe you're going to get somewhere.
0:11:32 > 0:11:36This is a marketplace where I'm actively involved.
0:11:36 > 0:11:37I do a lot of work with Google,
0:11:37 > 0:11:39I've got very good relationships there,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42and I think that where you're going,
0:11:42 > 0:11:44those relationships will be tested,
0:11:44 > 0:11:47and sometimes a friendly face that's been around,
0:11:47 > 0:11:50that knows and has those contacts, that could not just open the doors,
0:11:50 > 0:11:53but actually conclude those transactions and deals very quickly,
0:11:53 > 0:11:56will propel the business faster than others.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01So I'm going to offer you all of the money.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05£200,000.
0:12:08 > 0:12:10But I want 20% of the business.
0:12:14 > 0:12:17- Uh...I appreciate... - And I'd be happy to share it
0:12:17 > 0:12:20if Nick is interested. Because I think Nick's still in.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26A racy offer from the Dragon
0:12:26 > 0:12:30known for his scepticism about high valuations.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34He's boldly asking for 18% more equity than Dan is offering.
0:12:36 > 0:12:39Will Nick Jenkins take him up on his offer to go halves?
0:12:46 > 0:12:49You know what, you've got the right to say no, here we go.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52Give you half the money for 10% and share it with Peter.
0:12:52 > 0:12:56- Or you can do it all with Peter for 20%.- Thank you.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01And I think I would definitely prefer Nick involved
0:13:01 > 0:13:04- because I think Nick adds immeasurable value.- Yeah.
0:13:04 > 0:13:08And both of us, working with you directly,
0:13:08 > 0:13:11- is that propulsion that you're looking for.- Yeah.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Do you want to go to the back of the room and have a think about it?
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Yeah? If you want to...have a think.
0:13:22 > 0:13:24Finally, a bid for Dan's business
0:13:24 > 0:13:28from both Peter Jones and Nick Jenkins.
0:13:28 > 0:13:31But their equity demands of 10% each
0:13:31 > 0:13:35is ten times the 2% that Dan originally offered.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38- WHISPERS:- I'd be amazed...
0:13:38 > 0:13:42There's no chance he'll accept 20 in a million years, no way.
0:13:47 > 0:13:52It's an honour to be offered that by two Dragons.
0:13:52 > 0:13:54I think, in terms of
0:13:54 > 0:13:5820% for 200,000,
0:13:59 > 0:14:01I'm going to have to say no to that.
0:14:04 > 0:14:08What I would put back to you,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10or both of you,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13is 5% for 200,000.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17So 5% each?
0:14:17 > 0:14:18No.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24- 5% in total?- Yeah.
0:14:26 > 0:14:29An audacious counteroffer back from the entrepreneur
0:14:29 > 0:14:35who wants Peter Jones and Nick Jenkins to share a 5% stake.
0:14:35 > 0:14:36Would you do 7.5%?
0:14:38 > 0:14:41Will the two Dragons be prepared to compromise
0:14:41 > 0:14:44at 15% less than they originally offered?
0:14:51 > 0:14:53I just wondered, if we dropped to 15%...
0:14:59 > 0:15:00I can't do 15, I'm sorry.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06OK. Dan, well,
0:15:06 > 0:15:11- I think...it doesn't get me excited as much.- Yeah.
0:15:11 > 0:15:15- If I was sharing it with Nick - it's 2.5% each. It's...- Yup.
0:15:17 > 0:15:18Are you sure, Dan?
0:15:21 > 0:15:23Yeah.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25Thank you very much for your time.
0:15:25 > 0:15:29I'll give you back your polite notice and hope you don't regret it.
0:15:29 > 0:15:30Thank you very much.
0:15:32 > 0:15:36It takes nerve to turn down the multimillionaire investors,
0:15:36 > 0:15:39but Dan, who has opted to decline Dragon capital,
0:15:39 > 0:15:43leaves the Den still holding all his equity.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47I'm not sure I've got any regrets right now.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50You know, every percent counts in any company.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03Next into the Den is Mustafa Mehmet from Kent.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07An entrepreneur on a mission.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09I want to make a mark and a difference,
0:16:09 > 0:16:13and be a leader at something, rather than just do a regular job.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15I've always kind of been that driven and that ambitious.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18And he'll do what ever it takes to get investment
0:16:18 > 0:16:21in his innovative product for the beauty industry.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24So if they really start giving me a hard time,
0:16:24 > 0:16:28I'm just going to fight back and stand my ground, stick to my guns.
0:16:29 > 0:16:34But will Mustafa's business idea put him in the Dragon firing line?
0:16:44 > 0:16:46Hello, Dragons. My name is Mustafa Mehmet.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50I'm the founder of a company called Well Gel, London Ltd.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53And I'm here today to ask for £70,000
0:16:53 > 0:16:56in exchange for 35% of my company.
0:16:56 > 0:16:57A new start-up company.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02Well Gel London Ltd is a unique, all-in-one, natural,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05non-toxic gel nail system.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09Aisha's going to demonstrate the ease of application
0:17:09 > 0:17:11as I'm doing my pitch.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13It's completely chemical-free,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16and the idea of it is to provide a faster,
0:17:16 > 0:17:19healthy alternative to the gel nail industry.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22With only an application time of 15 minutes,
0:17:22 > 0:17:25as opposed to 40 minutes with conventional systems
0:17:25 > 0:17:27on the market already.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30The industry today, just in the gel nail market,
0:17:30 > 0:17:32is worth 453 million.
0:17:33 > 0:17:38So it's vastly escalating by 35% every year.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40And it's become the number one beauty selling product.
0:17:40 > 0:17:43It's overtaken lipstick sales.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45We have sparked an interest on Facebook.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49We have 2,396 followers.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52But you're looking to potentially invest in a company that wants to
0:17:52 > 0:17:55make a change in the industry and lead by example.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58With a new, natural alternative product.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01So, remember the next time, ladies, you have your nails done,
0:18:01 > 0:18:04don't just be gel, be Well Gel.
0:18:05 > 0:18:08A polished pitch from Kent-based Mustafa Mehmet.
0:18:08 > 0:18:13Which he hopes will nail him a £70,000 investment.
0:18:13 > 0:18:15Thank you. Can I see your nails?
0:18:15 > 0:18:19In return, he's offering a 35% stake in his business,
0:18:19 > 0:18:23supplying gel manicure products with a natural twist.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26A simple proposition.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29But Deborah Meaden is a little perplexed.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34I'm fascinated.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36How did you get into nails?
0:18:38 > 0:18:40Forgive me, but you don't look...
0:18:40 > 0:18:42You don't look like the target market.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45No. So I used to be a car sprayer before.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48- A car sprayer? - A car sprayer and panel beater.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50And I used to customise cars.
0:18:50 > 0:18:54- Brilliant.- Went from spraying cars for McLaren Mercedes, Ferrari,
0:18:54 > 0:18:57Aston Martin, to wanting to understand why,
0:18:57 > 0:19:02when I spray a panel, does the paint even stay on the panel.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06So I studied rheology, which is the study of paint.
0:19:06 > 0:19:09And, to me, this is just another paint system
0:19:09 > 0:19:11and my surface is a nail,
0:19:11 > 0:19:14rather than a car door, or the paint on your walls.
0:19:16 > 0:19:17OK, but fill in that gap.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20At what point did you sit there and think,
0:19:20 > 0:19:23spraying your Ferraris and Aston Martins, "I know what I'll do,
0:19:23 > 0:19:25"I'll create some nail gels."
0:19:25 > 0:19:28- I mean, how did that happen?- So I went to the salon with my sister.
0:19:28 > 0:19:30She was getting her nails done.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32I'd been there for about 40 minutes.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35The back of my throat was getting irritated.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39I was feeling like I would go out for air because of the environment.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42And I was just looking at the way they achieve an end finish.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44They use three to four different components
0:19:44 > 0:19:47to end up with one finish.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50So I thought, "I could re-engineer this and make it a better product."
0:19:50 > 0:19:53I think that's absolutely brilliant.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56Is this your product? Have you actually created...?
0:19:56 > 0:19:58This is my developed product.
0:19:58 > 0:19:59OK. Wow.
0:20:01 > 0:20:03The entrepreneur and his product
0:20:03 > 0:20:06have made a positive early impression on Deborah Meaden.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10Now, Nick Jenkins wants to know
0:20:10 > 0:20:13exactly how speedy Mustafa's manicures really are.
0:20:15 > 0:20:17How much quicker is this than the existing method?
0:20:17 > 0:20:19It's a 15-minute application.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22So, on average, if you do a manicure and a gel application,
0:20:22 > 0:20:27it takes an experienced manicurist half an hour to 40 minutes.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29So more than twice as fast?
0:20:29 > 0:20:32- Yes.- You can double your turnover from the same premises?
0:20:32 > 0:20:36Yes. Some of them actually use it as an express gel.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39- Right.- Alongside their existing gel product.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42You've come in and said, "This is quicker than anything else."
0:20:42 > 0:20:44Mm-hmm. It is.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46And I know it's not.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49The nail technicians who have been in the industry for 20 years
0:20:49 > 0:20:51- have told me it is.- But it's not,
0:20:51 > 0:20:54because I know that there are other products out there
0:20:54 > 0:20:57that loads of people have, that I've had, where you go in,
0:20:57 > 0:21:02you've got to be really quick, it's one coat, cure, out.
0:21:02 > 0:21:03That is your product.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05So there's...there was that claim.
0:21:05 > 0:21:10So...is your point of difference
0:21:10 > 0:21:11the environmental bit?
0:21:13 > 0:21:14My point of difference is
0:21:14 > 0:21:17the environmental bit is completely non-toxic,
0:21:17 > 0:21:19and expectant mothers can wear it.
0:21:19 > 0:21:21So I'm the only one that can literally state -
0:21:21 > 0:21:22and it has it written on the bottle -
0:21:22 > 0:21:25that it's suitable for pregnant women.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30Mustafa calmly covers all the bases.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33And seems to be keeping Sarah Willingham onside.
0:21:36 > 0:21:38But is Deborah Meaden convinced
0:21:38 > 0:21:42by his claim that the product is non-toxic and natural?
0:21:45 > 0:21:49So, Mustafa, it's taken out all those nasty...
0:21:49 > 0:21:52Bad stuff in the existing product?
0:21:52 > 0:21:57- Yes?- Yes. There are no carcinogenic materials in there.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59It's not a solvent-based product.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02So you've got the facts that can back that up?
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Yes, it's been SGS-tested.
0:22:05 > 0:22:09Which... SGS is an independent body that tests chemicals.
0:22:09 > 0:22:11They do their own due diligence.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13I've got the documents to say it is non-toxic.
0:22:13 > 0:22:16Actually, I might read the document, if you don't mind.
0:22:16 > 0:22:18And by the way, non-toxic is very different to natural.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20Natural, yeah.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26- I'll find it. - Oh, sorry. It's, um...
0:22:26 > 0:22:29Cos it's split in two, sorry.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32- Pass it to me...- There you go, it's through there.- ..and I will find it.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35- It's through there.- Thank you.
0:22:35 > 0:22:39With the paperwork firmly in the hands of the queen of due diligence,
0:22:39 > 0:22:42fashion retail impresario Touker Suleyman
0:22:42 > 0:22:45now wants to take the nail industry innovator to task
0:22:45 > 0:22:48over how he'll fund his new business.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53This is something that you'd like to start?
0:22:53 > 0:22:56This is something that I'm really passionate about...
0:22:56 > 0:22:57So if you start this...
0:22:57 > 0:23:01- Yeah?- ..as a start-up...- Yeah? - ..how are you going to pay yourself?
0:23:03 > 0:23:07Erm...through the investment that I'm seeking today.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09Yeah, but 70,000 is not going to get you very far.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13It'll get the product out on the market, to do beauty shows,
0:23:13 > 0:23:15- trade shows.- Show me an order.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18I haven't got an order. I've got an interest.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21- But that's why I'm here.- Listen, I'm an expert, all due respect.
0:23:21 > 0:23:23You're going to struggle.
0:23:23 > 0:23:28You will struggle. And I think 70,000 is not enough.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30You're going to need...
0:23:30 > 0:23:32300,000-400,000
0:23:32 > 0:23:35to have any chance of getting this out there.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37You've got to have other money.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41I don't believe, apart from money, that I can add any value to this.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45And for that reason, I'm out.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49The cost of bringing his product to market
0:23:49 > 0:23:51loses Mustafa his first Dragon.
0:23:53 > 0:23:58Will technology tycoon Peter Jones see the USP in the product?
0:24:01 > 0:24:03Do you own the rights to the formulation?
0:24:03 > 0:24:06So I own...50% of the formulation,
0:24:06 > 0:24:08which is the important part.
0:24:08 > 0:24:11It's been co-developed with a laboratory in China.
0:24:11 > 0:24:14So half of this is owned by somebody else?
0:24:14 > 0:24:15By the laboratory.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21It's...it doesn't hit me as an investment for me personally.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23And I think it's something that's got to hit with you.
0:24:23 > 0:24:26And you've got to get excited about it.
0:24:26 > 0:24:29It almost seems too good to be true, as well.
0:24:29 > 0:24:30So there's quite a lot going on.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34And if another Dragon invests and it becomes successful,
0:24:34 > 0:24:37then I'll just going to end up being Well Gel.
0:24:37 > 0:24:39But I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46I similarly feel as though I struggle...
0:24:46 > 0:24:48I need to see what I think I can do to help.
0:24:50 > 0:24:52And I'm struggling to...
0:24:52 > 0:24:54Struggling to see what I can do.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58Wish you all the best of luck, but I'm out.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Three Dragons down.
0:25:01 > 0:25:05Sarah Willingham had earlier reservations about Mustafa's claim
0:25:05 > 0:25:08that his varnish is the quickest-drying on the market.
0:25:08 > 0:25:11Has she heard anything to change her mind?
0:25:15 > 0:25:18On this particular product, I just...
0:25:18 > 0:25:19I just can't get there
0:25:19 > 0:25:23because I don't think it's faster than others on the market.
0:25:24 > 0:25:28And I think there is so much competition out there already,
0:25:28 > 0:25:31doing what you do.
0:25:31 > 0:25:33It's not an investment for me, so I'm out.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39Sarah Willingham also exits the deal,
0:25:39 > 0:25:44leaving Mustafa hanging onto hopes of investment by his fingernails.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48Deborah Meaden has studied the paperwork
0:25:48 > 0:25:50and there's something amiss.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58So when you talked about it being safe and natural,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01completely, it says here it's not carcinogenic.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04- Yeah.- So that is absolutely right.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10I wasn't expecting to read words like "harmful if swallowed,
0:26:10 > 0:26:12"absorbed through skin or inhaled.
0:26:12 > 0:26:16"Causes eye, skin and respiratory tract irritation".
0:26:16 > 0:26:19Why would I read was like that on a really safe and natural product?
0:26:22 > 0:26:25So, most products, if they're swallowed or put on the skin
0:26:25 > 0:26:27for a long length of time,
0:26:27 > 0:26:30would irritate the skin, depending on someone's allergies.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33No, not...not at the level of natural...
0:26:33 > 0:26:37I thought we were talking about a safe, natural product.
0:26:37 > 0:26:38"Use neoprene gloves,
0:26:38 > 0:26:41"chemical goggles should be used in the combination
0:26:41 > 0:26:43"with a full face shield."
0:26:43 > 0:26:46Mm. They're generics of most paint products.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48You need to wear gloves, you need to wear eye protection.
0:26:48 > 0:26:52You can't use words of, "this is a non-toxic product"
0:26:52 > 0:26:54when it is a toxic product.
0:26:54 > 0:26:58They don't say on a non-toxic product, "Keep individual calm,
0:26:58 > 0:27:00"get medical attention immediately."
0:27:00 > 0:27:03I assure you that is just a generic format for any paint product
0:27:03 > 0:27:05on the market, whether it's water-based...
0:27:05 > 0:27:10You didn't say this is safer than the other paint products.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12You said it was non-toxic.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14So, on the nail,
0:27:14 > 0:27:15not the skin,
0:27:15 > 0:27:18- it's non-toxic.- Yeah, but...no.
0:27:18 > 0:27:20This is actually saying that,
0:27:20 > 0:27:24heated up to a certain heat and if there's any mist or any spillage,
0:27:24 > 0:27:26it is toxic.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28Like petrol is at a fuel station.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30If it's heated up at a certain temperature...
0:27:30 > 0:27:32Everything's got a flash point.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35I'm sorry, you're now changing the story
0:27:35 > 0:27:37that started completely natural and non-toxic.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39And you're now saying, "Well, actually, yes,
0:27:39 > 0:27:42"but, you know, in the real world out there everything has a..."
0:27:42 > 0:27:45No, no, I'm just trying to address what you've asked me.
0:27:45 > 0:27:47It's not what you told me it was.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50And the bit that you misled me on
0:27:50 > 0:27:54is the bit that really, really had my interest.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57I'm glad I read that. But I won't be investing.
0:27:57 > 0:27:58I'm out.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04The entrepreneur may have stood his ground,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08but ultimately he failed to convince a disillusioned Deborah Meaden
0:28:08 > 0:28:10to invest in his start-up.
0:28:10 > 0:28:12- Thank you very much.- Good luck.
0:28:12 > 0:28:16He leaves the Den with nothing but a belief that he's been misunderstood.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21Deborah made some harsh comments about it being
0:28:21 > 0:28:25you know, not non-toxic in relation to the skin.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27The product's for nails.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29You know, it doesn't damage the nail.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31I stick to my guns.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35I shall carry on in my journey to get it into the market.
0:28:35 > 0:28:36And just get it out there, really.
0:28:43 > 0:28:46Also hoping for a Dragon cash injection
0:28:46 > 0:28:49were Polish postgraduate Artur Napiorkowski
0:28:49 > 0:28:52and his German business partner, Denny Schenk.
0:28:52 > 0:28:56The studious double act came into the Den with a solution to what they
0:28:56 > 0:29:00believed to be a very peculiar British plumbing problem.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02Separate hot and cold water taps.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Me, personally, I find separate taps extremely inconvenient.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09So this is the retro-mixer.
0:29:09 > 0:29:12It's an adapter for separate taps that mixes the two water streams.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15It's adjustable to different distances between the two taps.
0:29:15 > 0:29:19So no more frostbite, no more third-degree burns.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21Warm water for everyone.
0:29:21 > 0:29:22The Scotland-based duo
0:29:22 > 0:29:26hoped to persuade the Dragons to pour £45,000 into
0:29:26 > 0:29:30their DIY mixer tap in return for 15% equity.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33We do have the separate tap system.
0:29:33 > 0:29:35It is bonkers, I mean, I don't know why...
0:29:35 > 0:29:36It is, when you think about it.
0:29:36 > 0:29:38Nick Jenkins felt the plucky Brits
0:29:38 > 0:29:42already had a solution to the hot-cold tap conundrum.
0:29:42 > 0:29:43If you live in Britain,
0:29:43 > 0:29:46you eventually develop a technique which...
0:29:46 > 0:29:49You go from tap to tap. It's just, it's what you do.
0:29:49 > 0:29:51And, you know,
0:29:51 > 0:29:54you don't allow your hands under one tap for long enough for them
0:29:54 > 0:29:57to scald, you stick them back under the cold tap.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00While Sarah Willingham had some personal experience
0:30:00 > 0:30:03to share about the product's potential target market.
0:30:04 > 0:30:06I've got a Danish husband.
0:30:06 > 0:30:10And he goes on about this all the time.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13It drives him insane. He can't believe it.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15So he would say, "Genius!"
0:30:17 > 0:30:19Unfortunately for the entrepreneurs,
0:30:19 > 0:30:23Mr Willingham wasn't available to offer an investment.
0:30:23 > 0:30:27And an unimpressed Peter Jones soon poured cold water on the whole idea.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31This is a hot tap and a cold tap. It's not that difficult to work out.
0:30:31 > 0:30:34You put a little plug, because there's normally a hole in the sink,
0:30:34 > 0:30:37cos that's where the water goes out. You put a plug in there,
0:30:37 > 0:30:40pull the two and you've now got lukewarm water.
0:30:40 > 0:30:41That's true. The only problem
0:30:41 > 0:30:44is that no-one really has time for that nowadays.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46- Really?- The sink gets really dirty after...
0:30:46 > 0:30:50No-one has time for it? You students...sorry.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53You've got more time on your hands than anybody's got.
0:30:53 > 0:30:56Deborah Meaden was the first to send their investment hopes
0:30:56 > 0:30:58down the plughole.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00I'm probably not your natural investor,
0:31:00 > 0:31:02because I've just installed a really pretty sink
0:31:02 > 0:31:05with some really lovely individual taps.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08Because that's...cos what they look like matters are way more to me
0:31:08 > 0:31:11than whether I had to switch one on there, one on there.
0:31:11 > 0:31:14So my water stays separate. I won't be investing, guys.
0:31:14 > 0:31:15I'm out.
0:31:15 > 0:31:19And the other Dragons were also lukewarm on the prospect of a deal.
0:31:19 > 0:31:21In 150 years' time,
0:31:21 > 0:31:23we will eventually work out that mixer taps are better,
0:31:23 > 0:31:25in which case we won't need any of these.
0:31:25 > 0:31:28So good luck with selling them all, but I'm afraid I'm out.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31- I'm out.- I'm out.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33You've really made me smile and I am going to buy one
0:31:33 > 0:31:36and put it in the Dane's Christmas stocking.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38But it's not big enough to be a business.
0:31:38 > 0:31:39I'm afraid I'm out.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48Still to come on tonight's show:
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Separating substance from the spin.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52- This is what I don't understand.- Yeah...
0:31:52 > 0:31:55Why would you not focus on the thing that you've already proven?
0:31:55 > 0:31:57It doesn't make sense.
0:31:57 > 0:31:58It doesn't stack up.
0:31:59 > 0:32:04And the Den disagrees on what makes a money-spinning idea.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07Let's get it out there and see what happens.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10That is the most ridiculous thing that's ever come into the Den.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12I'll have to prove you wrong, Peter.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19Next into the Den is Alison Grieve from Edinburgh.
0:32:19 > 0:32:24An entrepreneur with a bold claim about her product and her business.
0:32:29 > 0:32:34Well, it's the perfect kind of merger of creativity and science.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40It's the best time to go on the Den,
0:32:40 > 0:32:43because the business has never looked so exciting.
0:32:45 > 0:32:50And there is one Dragon in particular Alison has her eye on.
0:32:50 > 0:32:55The Dragon with the most relevant experience is Peter Jones.
0:32:55 > 0:32:57And also we share the same birthday,
0:32:57 > 0:32:59so I kind of feel it's meant to be.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10My name is Alison Grieve, And I have a mission:
0:33:10 > 0:33:14To change the way the world holds things.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17I'm here today selling 7.5% of the company
0:33:17 > 0:33:20for a £75,000 investment.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24I first began Holding Hands in 2010,
0:33:24 > 0:33:27with the Safetray.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30The Safetray is a patented food service tray
0:33:30 > 0:33:31that doesn't topple over,
0:33:31 > 0:33:34but is still completely stackable.
0:33:35 > 0:33:39The Safetray brought us revenues of over £300,000,
0:33:39 > 0:33:43has achieved distribution across 17 countries,
0:33:43 > 0:33:45and whilst travelling with the Safetray,
0:33:45 > 0:33:50I decided to buy a tablet to make it easier to work on the move.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52And whilst I love the convenience of the tablet,
0:33:52 > 0:33:54I found it somewhat awkward to hold.
0:33:54 > 0:33:59So I applied my ergonomic expertise to invent the G-Hold.
0:34:00 > 0:34:05A recent patent examiner's report found G-Hold to be a novel solution,
0:34:05 > 0:34:11offering unprecedented control with a single hand, 360 rotation,
0:34:11 > 0:34:14and ergonomic hold regardless of hand size,
0:34:14 > 0:34:18whilst retaining the sleek design of tablets.
0:34:18 > 0:34:21We decided to launch G-Hold on Kickstarter,
0:34:21 > 0:34:25to test the market, and were successful,
0:34:25 > 0:34:29and we raised £13,000 and had 700 units pre-ordered.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32We now have an opportunity to grow in a far larger market
0:34:32 > 0:34:34than food service alone.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36But we need to fund that growth.
0:34:36 > 0:34:40Please join our mission to change the way the world holds things.
0:34:42 > 0:34:45A dual-offering of ergonomic inventions
0:34:45 > 0:34:48from Edinburgh-based Alison Grieve.
0:34:48 > 0:34:51- Thank you. - Some dummy iPads to play with.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54One, a non-slip service tray,
0:34:54 > 0:34:57the other an innovative holder for electronic tablets.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02Alison wants the dragons to offer up a £75,000 investment
0:35:02 > 0:35:06in return for 7.5% of her company.
0:35:06 > 0:35:08Oh, wow. Have they all got my face on?
0:35:08 > 0:35:11No, mine's got my face on it.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13Technology giant Peter Jones
0:35:13 > 0:35:17wants to get a handle on the tablet's target market.
0:35:19 > 0:35:23I see these types of product every day of my life, actually.
0:35:23 > 0:35:27Because I have a site that sells a lot of gadgety-type things.
0:35:27 > 0:35:30All over the world, every day, 170 countries.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33- Yes.- I'm trying to think, there must be a specific application
0:35:33 > 0:35:34that you'd use this for?
0:35:34 > 0:35:38- Yes, yes.- So, because this isn't really practical -
0:35:38 > 0:35:40if you're going to use a pad, if you're going to use...
0:35:40 > 0:35:43You want to use both hands.
0:35:43 > 0:35:44You wouldn't tend to go like that,
0:35:44 > 0:35:47unless you are either working in a restaurant,
0:35:47 > 0:35:49where you might want to take their order,
0:35:49 > 0:35:52or you might want to show somebody something when you're presenting.
0:35:52 > 0:35:56- Yes...- It's very, very specific. I'm not sure the wider use to this.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01See, the biggest growth in tablet sales
0:36:01 > 0:36:04- have been for industrial applications.- Industrial.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06What do you mean by that?
0:36:06 > 0:36:09So, for example, we've been working with RBS.
0:36:09 > 0:36:13They've bought a number of units to trial with their customer service,
0:36:13 > 0:36:16so that they can engage with customers more readily,
0:36:16 > 0:36:19show them the screen, be able to present,
0:36:19 > 0:36:24look things up on their tablet without having to hold it awkwardly.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27I understand that, that's customer engagement,
0:36:27 > 0:36:30but that doesn't necessarily mean that I need to have this ring
0:36:30 > 0:36:33- at the back of a pad, does it? - Well, actually,
0:36:33 > 0:36:34the ergonomic aspect to that
0:36:34 > 0:36:38is that people have started to develop "tablet neck"
0:36:38 > 0:36:42from looking over their tablets a lot instead of holding them up.
0:36:42 > 0:36:43That's a poor argument, really.
0:36:43 > 0:36:46Well, it's a proven argument, because there have been
0:36:46 > 0:36:51a big increase in musculoskeletal disorders.
0:36:51 > 0:36:55If you even think that your product will resolve that issue,
0:36:55 > 0:36:57I think that is more than just overselling it.
0:36:58 > 0:37:01I think it's a very, very tiny fragment of an opportunity
0:37:01 > 0:37:03in terms of its market.
0:37:03 > 0:37:07Peter, can I just give some examples of the customers who have used it?
0:37:07 > 0:37:09Give me an example, what sector?
0:37:09 > 0:37:13A national franchisee, who... It's to do with dieting.
0:37:13 > 0:37:15But it's 5,000 units roll-out.
0:37:15 > 0:37:18- And what are they going to do with it?- They're going to be having
0:37:18 > 0:37:23their weekly meetings and they're going to present.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26You might say that somebody's going to order 5,000 of these from you,
0:37:26 > 0:37:28even that doesn't make it a great business.
0:37:28 > 0:37:31Well, the Home Shopping Network sold out within...
0:37:31 > 0:37:34They didn't, you sold 2,000 units. I mean, that's nothing.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36But they've only just started selling.
0:37:36 > 0:37:38It doesn't matter. That doesn't matter.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40I've got products that will sell 100,000 in an hour.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45Alison's feisty defence of her tablet-holder
0:37:45 > 0:37:49does little to dent Peter Jones' criticism of her product,
0:37:49 > 0:37:51and the size of its market.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55Her original invention, the nonslip tray,
0:37:55 > 0:37:57has already served up considerable sales.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03Retail magnate Touker Suleyman wants the lowdown on its success.
0:38:05 > 0:38:09You say you've been going since 2014?
0:38:10 > 0:38:14For the G-Hold, yeah, but Safetray started in 2010.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16OK, let's talk about that.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18So, give us some numbers on that?
0:38:18 > 0:38:21Yeah, so, that's two parts to the revenue of Safetray,
0:38:21 > 0:38:23one is the sales from our own manufacturing,
0:38:23 > 0:38:25which were just over £80,000.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28- Yep.- And then £230,000 through licensing
0:38:28 > 0:38:32the technology to a North American partner.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35So that 230,000 was a royalty?
0:38:35 > 0:38:38Yeah, it was a mixture of upfront license fee and royalties,
0:38:38 > 0:38:40but basically came from a licence.
0:38:40 > 0:38:41Right.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45Clearly you did a great job of licensing out that product.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48Someone has paid you £230,000.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51But what I'm trying to understand is that, is that for ever?
0:38:51 > 0:38:53Is that for a year?
0:38:53 > 0:38:54No, so that licence,
0:38:54 > 0:38:57that was a three-year deal and it came to an end.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00OK, but when you say it came to an end...
0:39:00 > 0:39:02- Yeah.- It... Why would it come to an end?
0:39:02 > 0:39:05Presumably it's still a good product?
0:39:05 > 0:39:07We basically parked Safetray.
0:39:07 > 0:39:09There were issues with the manufacturing,
0:39:09 > 0:39:11we experienced warping.
0:39:11 > 0:39:14That took us out of production for a year.
0:39:14 > 0:39:18So we parked Safetray and focused entirely on developing the G-Hold.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21- Based on whether...- OK, but you've already developed a product that
0:39:21 > 0:39:24- someone has paid you... - WHISPERS:- Yeah, I don't get it.
0:39:24 > 0:39:30- ..£230,000 for? - It came down to a question of focus.
0:39:30 > 0:39:31- This is what I don't understand.- Yeah...
0:39:31 > 0:39:35Why would you not focus on the thing that you've already proven?
0:39:35 > 0:39:38It was a painful decision, but...
0:39:38 > 0:39:39It's a confusing decision, as well.
0:39:42 > 0:39:46The revelation that Alison switched focus from a developed product with
0:39:46 > 0:39:49a licensing track record, to an unproven new one,
0:39:49 > 0:39:51raises a red flag for Nick Jenkins.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58Deborah Meaden is also struggling to understand the rationale behind
0:39:58 > 0:40:00the entrepreneur's business decision.
0:40:03 > 0:40:05It doesn't make sense.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09You know, if I play it back to you,
0:40:09 > 0:40:12we have a product that is a really good product,
0:40:12 > 0:40:16and we actually sell it for a licence fee for £230,000.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18- Yes.- We're in trouble.
0:40:18 > 0:40:22We're distracted, so we need to focus on something.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24So what we'll do, we'll stop focusing on the thing that we know
0:40:24 > 0:40:27sells and does really well, and we'll look over here and do this
0:40:27 > 0:40:30thing that we have no idea whether it sells or not.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33- Yeah, and... - And which bit of that picture
0:40:33 > 0:40:37would you think that any sane investor would get?
0:40:37 > 0:40:40And I, you know, I understand that
0:40:40 > 0:40:43and it was a painful thing for me.
0:40:43 > 0:40:49I only have a very, very small time to bring you to your comfort levels,
0:40:49 > 0:40:52I understand that. And, you know...
0:40:52 > 0:40:55But people do, Alison. People come in here and they do,
0:40:55 > 0:40:58and they do that because they present a clear case
0:40:58 > 0:40:59that hangs together.
0:40:59 > 0:41:02You have not presented a good case to me here.
0:41:02 > 0:41:03I won't be investing, I'm out.
0:41:07 > 0:41:11Confusion over Alison's decision to sideline a successful product
0:41:11 > 0:41:14sees Deborah Meaden walk away from a deal.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18And it appears that a sceptical Peter Jones
0:41:18 > 0:41:20has also made his mind up.
0:41:22 > 0:41:24I think it's admirable,
0:41:24 > 0:41:27the fact that you've developed a product and sold it.
0:41:27 > 0:41:29You've gone on to develop another product and sold it.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32Alison, I think you're in a really difficult position.
0:41:34 > 0:41:36This is never going to be a volume product.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41It looks ugly, it's not usable...
0:41:41 > 0:41:43- SHE GASPS - ..and, frankly, at the moment,
0:41:43 > 0:41:46it's a very targeted market, this.
0:41:46 > 0:41:48And it's very small one.
0:41:48 > 0:41:52So...I can't invest in something like this, I don't believe in it.
0:41:52 > 0:41:55But, more importantly, I think you should have a bit of a reality check
0:41:55 > 0:41:58and really think about your business.
0:41:58 > 0:41:59I'm out.
0:42:01 > 0:42:06Peter Jones was the Dragon the entrepreneur hoped to impress.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09But, uninspired, he exits the negotiations.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13Sarah Willingham has a lucrative track record
0:42:13 > 0:42:15in global restaurant franchises.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18Can she see a use for Alison's products
0:42:18 > 0:42:20in the food service industry?
0:42:22 > 0:42:27- Alison.- Yes.- Firstly, I think you've coped pretty well, actually.
0:42:27 > 0:42:32I've seen people completely lose it with a lot less.
0:42:32 > 0:42:36- Thank you very much. - It's not an easy environment at all.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38But I do think it's very fair.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43There are still so many question marks, and I...
0:42:43 > 0:42:44I've got to be honest,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47it feels like it feels like such a lot of it is spin.
0:42:48 > 0:42:52I can't really get underneath what the reality is.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56And the bit that I can't let go of is the tray.
0:42:57 > 0:43:00You came up with a tray,
0:43:00 > 0:43:03you sold it. But don't anybody worry about that
0:43:03 > 0:43:05because we've got this new, great product here.
0:43:05 > 0:43:07And I'm like, hang on a minute, hang on a minute -
0:43:07 > 0:43:09what about this great product?
0:43:09 > 0:43:11- What happened?- I do understand.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14I think that there was a lot of pain endured during the time
0:43:14 > 0:43:18with Safetray, and the fact that we did mess up production,
0:43:18 > 0:43:21- we took a long time to get back. - But it's licensing, though,
0:43:21 > 0:43:24so what the hell's production got to do with it?
0:43:24 > 0:43:27We weren't able to fully support that licensing partner,
0:43:27 > 0:43:29nor the distributors that we had.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34Our investors wanted us to focus on G-Hold,
0:43:34 > 0:43:37and wanted to see that tested out.
0:43:37 > 0:43:39And were excited by G-Hold.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42The same investors that invested in the tray in the first place?
0:43:42 > 0:43:43Yeah.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47For me, it just doesn't stack up.
0:43:49 > 0:43:53There's just no way I can invest, I'm sorry, I'm out.
0:43:53 > 0:43:56I understand.
0:43:56 > 0:43:59Sarah Willingham also bows out,
0:43:59 > 0:44:04unable to get past Alison's decision to park the Safetray.
0:44:04 > 0:44:08Will Nick Jenkins be willing to do a deal with the Edinburgh inventor?
0:44:11 > 0:44:16What you would need to do to get my investment is to take this product
0:44:16 > 0:44:18further than you have already.
0:44:18 > 0:44:21You're on the cusp of doing sales, you need to focus on doing that.
0:44:21 > 0:44:25- Yeah.- You need to focus on taking this business into profitability.
0:44:25 > 0:44:29But right now, there just isn't enough evidence for me to invest,
0:44:29 > 0:44:31so I'm out.
0:44:33 > 0:44:38Four Dragons down, only Touker Suleyman remains.
0:44:38 > 0:44:41Will the Den's king of outsourcing be the Dragon
0:44:41 > 0:44:43to see traction in the tablet-holder?
0:44:46 > 0:44:48It's not a bad product.
0:44:49 > 0:44:54Because, from a commercial sense, if you think
0:44:54 > 0:44:58the online business is growing, so there is a use for it.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01There is a use in retail stores.
0:45:01 > 0:45:04So I think there's something there.
0:45:04 > 0:45:06I can see you selling lots of these.
0:45:09 > 0:45:12But I'm not going to join you on that journey, I'm afraid.
0:45:12 > 0:45:13SHE GASPS
0:45:13 > 0:45:16And for that reason, I'm out.
0:45:18 > 0:45:22Alison's mission may be to change the way the world holds things,
0:45:22 > 0:45:26but concerns over the direction she's taken her business means
0:45:26 > 0:45:30the prospect of a Dragon investment simply slipped through her fingers.
0:45:33 > 0:45:38I was a bit thrown by Peter not liking the product.
0:45:38 > 0:45:40And because that's his zone,
0:45:40 > 0:45:42I think that had a knock-on effect.
0:45:42 > 0:45:46I would like to show the Dragons, in the future,
0:45:46 > 0:45:50that I do know what I'm doing with this business.
0:45:57 > 0:46:00The final entrepreneur to enter the Den
0:46:00 > 0:46:02is Dublin-based Jamie Lawler,
0:46:02 > 0:46:05who's got a big idea for the little boys' room.
0:46:06 > 0:46:08People think it's fun, it's a novel idea.
0:46:08 > 0:46:10When children are over visiting our house,
0:46:10 > 0:46:13we get calls later on from mothers to say,
0:46:13 > 0:46:15"What's the story with your toilet?
0:46:15 > 0:46:20"My child is telling me you have the coolest toilet around."
0:46:20 > 0:46:24It is a fun idea, but this has global potential.
0:46:24 > 0:46:25It could be big.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41Hello, Dragons. My name is Jamie Lawler.
0:46:41 > 0:46:46I'm here today with my simple invention that has retail potential.
0:46:46 > 0:46:51I'm hoping for a £40,000 investment in return for a 20% share.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53As a father of three young children,
0:46:53 > 0:46:56I've found my fair share of unflushed toilets.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59Children see flushing the toilet as a chore.
0:46:59 > 0:47:01And we all know it's hard to get children
0:47:01 > 0:47:03to do something when it's a chore.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06So I thought, "How could I turn that chore into a pleasure?"
0:47:06 > 0:47:09And that was the start of Kidsflush.
0:47:09 > 0:47:13A simple unit that sticks over the top of your existing toilet button,
0:47:13 > 0:47:15held in place with suction cups.
0:47:17 > 0:47:21The large, colourful button is easy for children to press.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24Giving that visual reminder.
0:47:24 > 0:47:26And, of course, one more thing, we made it fun.
0:47:26 > 0:47:27BUGLE FANFARE
0:47:27 > 0:47:32Children get that built-in sound module cheer when played.
0:47:32 > 0:47:33So...
0:47:36 > 0:47:40I am pre-trading, but design is done, testing is done,
0:47:40 > 0:47:41and tooling has started.
0:47:41 > 0:47:45So I will pass out some samples and I welcome any questions.
0:47:47 > 0:47:49Hoping to flush a few quid out of the Dragons
0:47:49 > 0:47:52is Dublin-based Jamie Lawler.
0:47:52 > 0:47:53Does mine fanfare?
0:47:53 > 0:47:56They all do, the first lot are all fanfares, yeah.
0:47:56 > 0:48:00He's asking for £40,000 in return for a 20% stake
0:48:00 > 0:48:03in his kid-friendly loo-flushing gadget.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05BUGLE FANFARE
0:48:07 > 0:48:10Sorry. You can turn them off by turning the button.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13I probably should have left them turned off.
0:48:16 > 0:48:17Stop now.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20Deborah Meaden wants to find out if the idea
0:48:20 > 0:48:22is more than just a flash in the pan.
0:48:25 > 0:48:26Jamie, I guess the first...
0:48:27 > 0:48:30The first question is, is it just for children?
0:48:30 > 0:48:32Because I know quite a few adults
0:48:32 > 0:48:35who like to hail the announcement of...
0:48:35 > 0:48:37Anyway, let's not go there.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39LAUGHTER
0:48:41 > 0:48:44Well... So, pre-trading.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47That means you've done, you've made it,
0:48:47 > 0:48:50you haven't sold any at all.
0:48:50 > 0:48:51No.
0:48:52 > 0:48:56Have you talked to any retailers?
0:48:56 > 0:48:58Anybody who's actually likely to sell it?
0:48:58 > 0:49:00I've provisionally spoken to retailers,
0:49:00 > 0:49:03and the feedback that I got was, "That's fantastic,
0:49:03 > 0:49:05"when can we have stock and can you leave samples with me?"
0:49:05 > 0:49:08So, which retailers have you spoken to?
0:49:08 > 0:49:10It was somebody who actually used to work for Tesco.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16And how much will they sell for?
0:49:16 > 0:49:18£12, they retail for £12.
0:49:18 > 0:49:20- And how much have they cost you to make?- £3.
0:49:20 > 0:49:23- Fully boxed?- Fully boxed.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26I think my ideal would be to get into retail and possibly
0:49:26 > 0:49:29position it as an impulse buy, so it would be hanging
0:49:29 > 0:49:31in a supermarket next to the pull-up nappies,
0:49:31 > 0:49:34and it's kind of a case of, when they're doing the shopping,
0:49:34 > 0:49:35they'll pick it up.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40The Dublin-based entrepreneur
0:49:40 > 0:49:43reveals his retail aspirations for his novelty product.
0:49:44 > 0:49:46With a household of five children,
0:49:46 > 0:49:51tech tycoon Peter Jones knows more than most about the issue at hand.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54But does he think the toilet idea holds water?
0:49:55 > 0:50:00Jamie, in essence, you've invented a button
0:50:00 > 0:50:02that goes on top of a button.
0:50:02 > 0:50:04Yeah, a button for a button.
0:50:04 > 0:50:06A button for a button.
0:50:06 > 0:50:07Yeah.
0:50:07 > 0:50:10I'm going to tell you straight away, I think it's crazy.
0:50:11 > 0:50:14There's two things you should know about kids. Well, you know.
0:50:14 > 0:50:16First thing is getting them going to the loo is one thing,
0:50:16 > 0:50:18but once you've got to that age and they do,
0:50:18 > 0:50:21when they get that out seat, they tend to just rush out.
0:50:21 > 0:50:22They're not going to rush out and think,
0:50:22 > 0:50:25"Oh, I've got to go back and press that, because it's ..."
0:50:25 > 0:50:26IMITATES FANFARE
0:50:26 > 0:50:29They'll do it once or twice and then get bored.
0:50:29 > 0:50:31Yes, it has worked in our house.
0:50:31 > 0:50:33We've had it on our toilet and it's worked.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37Our children flush the toilet now.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40I think you just need to tell your kids to flush the toilet.
0:50:40 > 0:50:42You've got a product, but, Jamie...
0:50:43 > 0:50:45It's bordering on the ridiculous.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49I disagree with him.
0:50:49 > 0:50:52I think... I think you've got something here.
0:50:52 > 0:50:55I remember when my children were much younger,
0:50:55 > 0:50:58and I was always going behind them, "Flush the loo."
0:50:58 > 0:50:59But this makes it fun.
0:50:59 > 0:51:02And I think most of them will say to their mummies,
0:51:02 > 0:51:04"I want to go to the loo cos I want to flush it."
0:51:04 > 0:51:06Exactly. I mean, that's the idea.
0:51:06 > 0:51:09Do you have any other ideas for any other products?
0:51:09 > 0:51:11We do, yeah, we do have some thought around
0:51:11 > 0:51:13getting children to wash their hands.
0:51:13 > 0:51:17I suppose the idea is to bring fun to everyday tasks for children.
0:51:17 > 0:51:19I hate to ask what you're going to do for that?
0:51:19 > 0:51:22Well, we might make the water glow or the soap glow.
0:51:26 > 0:51:30The Kidsflush finds a friend in the Den in Touker Suleyman.
0:51:30 > 0:51:33Plans to diversify into other products
0:51:33 > 0:51:35should be music to a Dragon's ears.
0:51:35 > 0:51:39Is Nick Jenkins tuned in, or about to drop out?
0:51:42 > 0:51:45- It's a very well-made product. - Yeah, that's the prototype.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48- I was amazed by how heavy it is. - Yeah.- It's very nicely made.
0:51:48 > 0:51:52But, in short, this is a product, not a business, really.
0:51:52 > 0:51:58And it's just really too limited to be of interest.
0:51:59 > 0:52:00But good luck with it. I'm out.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10Nick Jenkins puts the lid down on the toilet gadget.
0:52:10 > 0:52:13Sarah Willingham has a sizeable clan at home.
0:52:13 > 0:52:17Does she see some potential profit in the child-friendly product?
0:52:19 > 0:52:25Jamie, I think you must have had so much fun coming up with this,
0:52:25 > 0:52:28and thinking of your glowing soap and your glowing water,
0:52:28 > 0:52:30and all those other ideas in your head -
0:52:30 > 0:52:32you must actually really enjoy this?
0:52:32 > 0:52:35Yeah, it's been fun. It's been an experience.
0:52:35 > 0:52:37And I think, honestly,
0:52:37 > 0:52:40if you can make a living doing stuff like this,
0:52:40 > 0:52:43and enjoying it, then why not?
0:52:44 > 0:52:46But, no, I'm sorry, it's not investable.
0:52:48 > 0:52:49I'm afraid I'm out.
0:52:53 > 0:52:56Forgetting to flush clearly isn't an issue in the Willingham WC.
0:52:58 > 0:53:02Has Peter Jones been relieved of his earlier concerns?
0:53:05 > 0:53:07Jamie, I am honestly beyond worried.
0:53:09 > 0:53:11Find somewhere else that you can make your money,
0:53:11 > 0:53:15because this isn't it. This is not going to change your life.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18I admire the fact that you're coming up with ideas,
0:53:18 > 0:53:20but this is not a good one.
0:53:21 > 0:53:23So, unfortunately, I'm out.
0:53:26 > 0:53:27Do you know, I think it looks fun.
0:53:27 > 0:53:30And I definitely think you'll sell some.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33And I do think you'll make money out of it.
0:53:33 > 0:53:35And, certainly, when people see it...
0:53:35 > 0:53:37It makes people smile, you know?
0:53:39 > 0:53:40But it's not an investment.
0:53:40 > 0:53:43So, I'm afraid I'm about to say those two words, Jamie -
0:53:43 > 0:53:45- but thank you for bringing it in, it's made me smile...- OK.
0:53:45 > 0:53:47..and my husband might get one for Christmas.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50So, anyway, Jamie, I won't be investing, I'm out.
0:53:54 > 0:53:59With Deborah Meaden out, just Touker Suleyman remains.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01Will the Irish entrepreneur
0:54:01 > 0:54:04get a royal flush of five Dragon rejections?
0:54:07 > 0:54:09Jamie, I like it.
0:54:11 > 0:54:12Ooh!
0:54:12 > 0:54:14FANFARE PLAYS
0:54:14 > 0:54:15He likes it!
0:54:15 > 0:54:19- THEY LAUGH - The thing is, is it a business?
0:54:20 > 0:54:22This is the question.
0:54:22 > 0:54:25At the moment, what debts has the company got?
0:54:26 > 0:54:29None, really, only the personal investment that I've made there,
0:54:29 > 0:54:33so there's no real debt and there's no real costs in the company either,
0:54:33 > 0:54:34you know, in running the company, so...
0:54:34 > 0:54:37- And there's no other costs in the company?- No.
0:54:40 > 0:54:41Hmm.
0:54:43 > 0:54:46- And where are you based? - In Dublin.- Dublin.
0:54:47 > 0:54:48OK.
0:54:50 > 0:54:52Do you need a London-based office?
0:54:54 > 0:54:55Could be handy.
0:54:56 > 0:54:58Hmm.
0:54:59 > 0:55:00You've got me right on that line.
0:55:00 > 0:55:02- WHISPERS:- Get him over the line, Jamie!
0:55:02 > 0:55:05It does have potential. I mean, there's a lot of...
0:55:05 > 0:55:08- So where would the money go to? - There's a lot of people...
0:55:08 > 0:55:10- In stock?- Realistically, yeah,
0:55:10 > 0:55:13but I'm not planning on holding a warehouse
0:55:13 > 0:55:15full of stock of Kidsflush.
0:55:30 > 0:55:32I'll give you all the money for 40%.
0:55:35 > 0:55:36FANFARE PLAYS
0:55:42 > 0:55:45And is there any negotiation on that?
0:55:45 > 0:55:47No, because it's a real start-up.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49You're going to need a bit of help.
0:55:49 > 0:55:51You're going to need a few phone calls to people like Mothercare.
0:55:51 > 0:55:53- Mhm.- John Lewis.- Mhm.
0:55:53 > 0:55:56Maybe even take it across the water to the States.
0:55:56 > 0:55:59- Yeah.- But would I be able to help you from London
0:55:59 > 0:56:02to open doors for you and get pre-orders?
0:56:02 > 0:56:04- Right.- Get some stock in,
0:56:04 > 0:56:07and then let's get it out there and see what happens.
0:56:07 > 0:56:09Erm...
0:56:12 > 0:56:15- I'll take your offer.- Good.- Yay!
0:56:15 > 0:56:17Jamie has done it.
0:56:17 > 0:56:18Well done.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21Having faced some dubious Dragons for much of his pitch,
0:56:21 > 0:56:24the Dublin entrepreneur manages to get an offer in the can.
0:56:24 > 0:56:28And leaves the Den with a retail expert Dragon on board,
0:56:28 > 0:56:31and the £40,000 investment he was looking for.
0:56:31 > 0:56:34FANFARE PLAYS
0:56:35 > 0:56:38I would've said that is the most ridiculous thing
0:56:38 > 0:56:39that's ever come into the Den.
0:56:39 > 0:56:42Now I can say it's the most ridiculous thing that has ever come
0:56:42 > 0:56:44into the Den that's got investment.
0:56:44 > 0:56:46I'll have to prove you wrong, Peter.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49I'll bet you the 40 grand you bet that you won't.
0:56:49 > 0:56:50OK!
0:56:50 > 0:56:51Fine.
0:56:53 > 0:56:56Yeah, I was a bit worried all right, it wasn't going too well.
0:56:56 > 0:57:00But Touker came in in the end and we got the deal done.
0:57:00 > 0:57:02I'm not changing the world here. It's a bit of fun.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05But, you know, there's a lot of toilets out there,
0:57:05 > 0:57:06and a lot of children.
0:57:12 > 0:57:16Some light relief to end tonight's dramas in the Den,
0:57:16 > 0:57:20that, in one way or another, have all been about innovators
0:57:20 > 0:57:24and inventions. But, as we've just seen, however unlikely an idea,
0:57:24 > 0:57:27it takes the backing of just one Dragon
0:57:27 > 0:57:29to give a business a chance of success.
0:57:29 > 0:57:33And that brings proceedings to a close for this series.
0:57:33 > 0:57:34But don't despair,
0:57:34 > 0:57:37the Den will be back open for business later this year.
0:57:40 > 0:57:44Coming soon in the thrilling new series,
0:57:44 > 0:57:47two new fire breathers enter the Den.