0:00:02 > 0:00:04Tonight on Dragons' Den...
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Whoa!
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Dragons, I'm a multimillionaire.
0:00:14 > 0:00:15- I don't need money.- I'm out!
0:00:18 > 0:00:21You've worked in three investment banks - God help us!
0:00:23 > 0:00:25I think it's a very difficult market.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27You've really got to be very, very good.
0:00:28 > 0:00:31I'm torn, because I know what I could do with it.
0:00:33 > 0:00:34You've gave...
0:00:34 > 0:00:38given me nothing, absolutely nothing.
0:00:39 > 0:00:40I was about to go out,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42and I've just talked myself into potentially making an offer.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18Welcome to Dragons' Den.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22This is the place that when those lift doors open,
0:01:22 > 0:01:24entrepreneurs have just three minutes
0:01:24 > 0:01:27to deliver the business pitch of their lifetime.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31- Right, ready, Rog? - Yeah, I'm ready, Phil.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34Right, so we're going in. Covers off.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36- Do the best you can.- Yeah, yeah.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Our first candidates for the Dragons' cash have come a long
0:01:39 > 0:01:43way from humble beginnings as a waiter and forklift truck driver
0:01:43 > 0:01:47to build a multi-million pound transatlantic business.
0:01:48 > 0:01:50Yeah, we've got a lot of experience,
0:01:50 > 0:01:53but going into the Den is a completely new experience for us.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56We're more used to being on the other side of the table.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01- OK?- Yeah, perfect.- Are you set?
0:02:01 > 0:02:04'I've learnt the pitch, I've done it 100 times,'
0:02:04 > 0:02:07I'll probably forget what I'm about to say next.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09If you get stuck, just look at me.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11- Yeah, OK, I will do. - If I don't take over, panic.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17They're here today with a completely new business,
0:02:17 > 0:02:19a personal security product.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22And they want a Dragon to help fast-track it to be
0:02:22 > 0:02:24their next big money-spinner.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31- I'm Roger Willems. - And I'm Phil Stratford.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35And we're the owners of the multiple award-winning DoorJammer.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37We're here today to present you with an opportunity
0:02:37 > 0:02:41to invest £80,000 for a 15% share of our company.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46Have you ever been in a hotel room where you don't feel 100% safe?
0:02:46 > 0:02:49You look at the door locks and you think they're not fit for purpose.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51Wouldn't it be good if you had a simple solution
0:02:51 > 0:02:55that you could give to your children when they go off to university
0:02:55 > 0:02:59or they go on holiday that would make them travel and feel safer?
0:02:59 > 0:03:02Well, Rog, now there is a solution.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05OK. DoorJammer is a small, innovative,
0:03:05 > 0:03:11patented device that fits neatly under almost any door in the world.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15Can I just demonstrate it to you, how it works?
0:03:15 > 0:03:17So, you fit it...
0:03:18 > 0:03:22..under the door, and then you begin to wind the Jammer up
0:03:22 > 0:03:24till you get contact with the door.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29You try the door - to let you know that it's connected.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33But if you then had to leave the room in an emergency at any stage,
0:03:33 > 0:03:38well, you can go down, pull the Jammer and it will come away.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40We have sales in over 25 countries,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43so come and join us and let's scale the sales together.
0:03:46 > 0:03:50No forgotten lines from Roger Willems and Phil Stratford,
0:03:50 > 0:03:53these days hailing from opposite sides of the pond.
0:03:53 > 0:03:58They're hoping a Dragon will unlock the door to success by investing
0:03:58 > 0:04:01£80,000 in this sideline to their business.
0:04:01 > 0:04:02Keep the girls away from me!
0:04:04 > 0:04:07In return, they'll give away a 15% share.
0:04:08 > 0:04:09The product has made
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Sarah Willingham keen to get hands-on.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17I would actually quite like to try it with the door.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21- Sure.- Would you mind putting it back, and we'll have a tug on it?
0:04:21 > 0:04:23OK.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28You'd normally want to try and get in with it, wouldn't you?
0:04:28 > 0:04:31- The idea...- But you wouldn't be this side of the door, would you?
0:04:31 > 0:04:33- No, no...- You're trying to prevent people from getting in.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35OK, he's ready.
0:04:37 > 0:04:40We actually thought you'd come and kick it, Peter.
0:04:40 > 0:04:41Keep out of my bedroom, Sarah!
0:04:41 > 0:04:42Yes!
0:04:43 > 0:04:45It's definitely a deterrent...
0:04:45 > 0:04:48I think it's a deterrent, but there's no doubt if you wanted,
0:04:48 > 0:04:50if you wanted to...
0:04:50 > 0:04:51- Go on, then? - Shall we give it a kick?
0:04:51 > 0:04:54I'm going to let... I'm going to leave that to somebody
0:04:54 > 0:04:55who's better dressed for it, I think.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Whoa!
0:05:02 > 0:05:03Here we go!
0:05:05 > 0:05:07It's quite good.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09Shall I give it the final touch?!
0:05:09 > 0:05:10Ha-ha!
0:05:10 > 0:05:11But not brilliant.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20Nick Jenkins takes advantage of a rare opportunity
0:05:20 > 0:05:22to flex his muscles,
0:05:22 > 0:05:25with disastrous consequences for Phil and Roger.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28And it's kicked off thoughts about the product's necessity
0:05:28 > 0:05:30for Peter Jones.
0:05:32 > 0:05:34Why wouldn't you...? You know the doorstoppers you have,
0:05:34 > 0:05:36I have them in my house, they're wooden.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39- Mm-hmm.- Why wouldn't you just use that?
0:05:39 > 0:05:41They... Erm, they usually kick away.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43This gives you
0:05:43 > 0:05:46a sort of higher level of protection, of safety.
0:05:46 > 0:05:47But it didn't stop... I mean,
0:05:47 > 0:05:50Nick is not known for being a bit of a bully boy,
0:05:50 > 0:05:54and yet it took him about ten seconds to get into the hotel room.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59It takes you about three seconds to wake up.
0:05:59 > 0:06:00But the thing is, that doesn't
0:06:00 > 0:06:02help me if I'm lying in bed in my underwear.
0:06:02 > 0:06:05The whole point about this product surely is to prevent
0:06:05 > 0:06:08somebody from getting in, not to give you an extra ten seconds.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10It's to prevent silent entry, is the idea.
0:06:10 > 0:06:13- And of course...- Really?- ..like most security products, you know,
0:06:13 > 0:06:17if someone wants to get in, most places, they can.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21I mean, I was in a hotel in Malaysia where they had guards on the lift,
0:06:21 > 0:06:23and I had DoorJammer with me.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26At least I was able to get a degree of comfort that I had a level of
0:06:26 > 0:06:30security that I could control as well.
0:06:30 > 0:06:33Roger, I think that's just salesmen's nonsense.
0:06:33 > 0:06:34Yeah.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38If your product only gives a ten-second delay,
0:06:38 > 0:06:42you put a table or a chair next to the door, it's exactly the same.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47Phil and Roger can't seem to convince Peter Jones
0:06:47 > 0:06:50that their product is the best solution for the problem
0:06:50 > 0:06:52it's designed to solve.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55And now, Deborah Meaden wants to talk hard cash.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59Erm, how much does this sell for?
0:06:59 > 0:07:01They sell for 24.99.
0:07:01 > 0:07:03So, how much are they costing you to make?
0:07:03 > 0:07:06We buy them for 6.39.
0:07:06 > 0:07:07So you're not making them?
0:07:07 > 0:07:09We are making them.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12- Ah...- So, DoorJammer buys them for 6.39.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15We make them in our factory for 4.50.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17OK, you probably need to explain that to me.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19Yes. So, we have a business, we've been partners
0:07:19 > 0:07:20for more than 30 years,
0:07:20 > 0:07:24and we do industrial products, business-to-business products.
0:07:24 > 0:07:26So that's your separate business...
0:07:26 > 0:07:27Yeah, and we sell it to ourselves.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29..and you're asking us to invest
0:07:29 > 0:07:30in a business that only does DoorJammer.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33- Yes.- Only does DoorJammer, yes. I don't understand.
0:07:33 > 0:07:35Not surprisingly, I want to understand the relationship.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37So, this other business you've got - how big's that?
0:07:37 > 0:07:3870 million.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43- Turnover. - Yes.- Turns over 70 million a year?
0:07:43 > 0:07:45- Yes.- Yes.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Erm, that's quite a good business, that's a big business.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51Can I ask, what profit does it make, the company?
0:07:51 > 0:07:53Er, it does about 10 million.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55So, you make 10 million a year.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58- Mmm.- Erm...
0:07:58 > 0:08:00You've got more money than me!
0:08:01 > 0:08:02Er...
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Come and sit here.
0:08:04 > 0:08:06Sit down.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Dragons, I'm a multi-millionaire.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15I don't need money. And from this doorstopper, we have made millions.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17Can I just say - I'm out!
0:08:23 > 0:08:26News of Phil and Roger's other successful business
0:08:26 > 0:08:31has certainly created a congenial atmosphere in the Den.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33But now all are back in their rightful places,
0:08:33 > 0:08:37that 70-million question is still hanging in the air.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43What are you doing here? You know,
0:08:43 > 0:08:46you'd have many other ways of gaining routes to market,
0:08:46 > 0:08:48I mean, you must have.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50When we first got DoorJammer,
0:08:50 > 0:08:53we spoke about how we could possibly get it to market,
0:08:53 > 0:08:55and we only know the business-to-business route,
0:08:55 > 0:08:57that's through trade fairs.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00We think that youse have got the type of expertise,
0:09:00 > 0:09:03you've certainly got the profile, and we don't.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06We actually pitched it to Robert Dyas about a year ago,
0:09:06 > 0:09:09and I mean, they weren't that interested.
0:09:09 > 0:09:10Oh, well, that's interesting.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13Why not? I mean, they're... You know, they're professional buyers,
0:09:13 > 0:09:15their job is to find new product, and you're bang on,
0:09:15 > 0:09:17that's exactly who you'd talk to, so...
0:09:17 > 0:09:20I think we weren't ready, I think we were too amateurish for them.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23We probably couldn't answer all the questions
0:09:23 > 0:09:25that a consumer company would want.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28I will not accept that it's the way you presented it.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31Because any professional buyer will get over that.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34You know, they will think, "Ooh, good product, like that."
0:09:34 > 0:09:36I mean, when I first started with it,
0:09:36 > 0:09:38I tried to find a PR company to handle it.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40- No, no.- It's the same thing.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Roger, Roger - focus.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44I'm being very, very specific.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47So, why were you told they were not interested in this product?
0:09:47 > 0:09:50We found that Home Depot, Costco, they all look at the product,
0:09:50 > 0:09:52say they're interested,
0:09:52 > 0:09:54decide that we're a one-product company
0:09:54 > 0:09:57and channel us off to a distributor.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00You see, that worries me even more.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03That worries me even more because those names that you've just listed,
0:10:03 > 0:10:04I've got product in.
0:10:04 > 0:10:05One product.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09And they were so quick off the mark I can't tell you.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11See it, love it, buy it.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14So that's my worry.
0:10:14 > 0:10:15I don't get it.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19The Dragon with contacts in the product's target stores
0:10:19 > 0:10:23casts doubt over its saleability in them.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27And this successful business double act's inability to get the product
0:10:27 > 0:10:31to market has sent Touker Suleyman into a state of confusion.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36I can't work the pair of you out.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38You know, here you are.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41You're acting a little bit Tweedledum and Tweedledee,
0:10:41 > 0:10:44and you're acting as if you've never been out there,
0:10:44 > 0:10:48but you're very astute, the pair of you.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51Yeah, we are professional business guys.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54We are both out there doing the business we understand.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58What we are probably saying quite badly is the consumer side of it,
0:10:58 > 0:11:02we've not got proper experience in it and coming to the Den and getting
0:11:02 > 0:11:06someone on board who understands that will drive it forward.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10But, if I invested,
0:11:10 > 0:11:13you'd say, "We want a Dragon on board
0:11:13 > 0:11:17"so they can really help us get the product out there."
0:11:18 > 0:11:21You would put all that pressure of the sales back on me.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25I think to myself, "How many hours a week have I got?"
0:11:25 > 0:11:26You don't need a Dragon.
0:11:26 > 0:11:27You don't need my money.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29And for that reason, I'm out.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33Phil and Roger's success in business
0:11:33 > 0:11:37has led to failure with potential investor Touker Suleyman.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41And it doesn't look like it's gone down well with Nick Jenkins either.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46The thing that I really enjoy is investing in businesses
0:11:46 > 0:11:48to really make a difference, to support people who are going to go
0:11:48 > 0:11:50and create a good business.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54Not really terribly interested in effectively supporting
0:11:54 > 0:11:58a little tiny sideline of your enormous business.
0:11:58 > 0:12:00It's just not that appealing.
0:12:00 > 0:12:01- It's not for me.- OK.
0:12:01 > 0:12:02- So I'm out.- Thank you.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06My biggest concern,
0:12:06 > 0:12:09you've already tried to send it to a lot of people, and those are the
0:12:09 > 0:12:13people that I would be able to introduce you to because they are
0:12:13 > 0:12:17UK contacts, and they've already said no so, genuinely,
0:12:17 > 0:12:20I don't think I've got a great deal to add.
0:12:20 > 0:12:21So I'm out.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25You're going to sell some of these,
0:12:25 > 0:12:27you're going to make a bit of money but it kind of...
0:12:27 > 0:12:30it feels like it's not that important to you
0:12:30 > 0:12:33because you've got this whole other successful life going on,
0:12:33 > 0:12:35which I'm certainly not going to criticise. Well done.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38But it kind of then loses a piece for it.
0:12:38 > 0:12:42So I'm afraid I'm out.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47Deborah Meaden becomes the fourth Dragon
0:12:47 > 0:12:49to show Phil and Roger the door.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51Does Peter Jones have more faith
0:12:51 > 0:12:54that these successful businessmen have what it takes
0:12:54 > 0:12:57to build another multi-million pound enterprise?
0:13:00 > 0:13:02I think you have done incredibly well.
0:13:03 > 0:13:07I'm a little bit frustrated with the fact you've done so well in your own
0:13:07 > 0:13:10business and yet you thought this could be the route
0:13:10 > 0:13:13that you need to go and sell this product.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15I don't buy into the product.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17I think it is totally over-engineered.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21But I don't think it's going to affect your lives.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24You are multimillionaires in your own right, and I congratulate you,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27but I'm not going to invest in something that
0:13:27 > 0:13:29I just don't think is necessary.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33So I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:13:33 > 0:13:34- Thank you.- Thanks very much indeed.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36It was really interesting.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38Bye-bye.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42So, Phil and Roger's concerns about their ability to sell becomes
0:13:42 > 0:13:44a self-fulfilling prophecy
0:13:44 > 0:13:48as they fail to persuade the Dragons to buy into their dream.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51You never see yourself from somebody else's eyes.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53Absolutely, yeah. Maybe it was us.
0:13:53 > 0:13:58Maybe working with guys who are running a 70-million business,
0:13:58 > 0:14:00maybe that put them off.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03Maybe they think we should have been poorer,
0:14:03 > 0:14:05and that might have made a difference.
0:14:05 > 0:14:06Anyway, I really enjoyed that.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08The one bit that was really unexpected, Rog,
0:14:08 > 0:14:11I don't know whether you noticed, but I got a new partner.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13- Peter Jones.- Absolutely.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16He seemed to be my new business partner, but don't worry,
0:14:16 > 0:14:19- I'd never swap him for you. - Thank you.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34Our next entrepreneur has an impressive and varied CV.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36He's a Cambridge postgraduate
0:14:36 > 0:14:40with careers in modelling and banking under his belt.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43My strategy in the Den is just be myself,
0:14:43 > 0:14:45put across my passion in the business.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49I'm not feeling particularly nervous.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53I've delivered thousands of presentations
0:14:53 > 0:14:55to multibillion-dollar finance hedge funds
0:14:55 > 0:14:58who rip you apart if you miss a punctuation, and then you get
0:14:58 > 0:15:01castigated, so to be honest,
0:15:01 > 0:15:03I feel quite excited, actually.
0:15:10 > 0:15:11Hi.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Hi, Dragons. Oh, this...
0:15:25 > 0:15:26Hi, good afternoon, Dragons.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28My name is Sunil Kavuri and I'm here
0:15:28 > 0:15:32to offer you 5% of my food-to-go business, Great Grub,
0:15:32 > 0:15:34in exchange for £80,000.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36I'm... I have been a successful model,
0:15:36 > 0:15:38I've been a successful investment strategist
0:15:38 > 0:15:40at a leading investment bank in the City,
0:15:40 > 0:15:44and now I run the food-to-go business Great Grub.
0:15:44 > 0:15:46A few years ago, I was working in the City
0:15:46 > 0:15:49and I decided to take some time out and travel the world,
0:15:49 > 0:15:51sampling the local cuisines.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54Then I decided to set up my food-to-go business,
0:15:54 > 0:15:55and Great Grub was born.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00Great Grub is a food-to-go business inspired by street food on the go.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05All our products are halal and there's five main trends that are
0:16:05 > 0:16:08revolutionising the food-to-go industry.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11One, food on the move, two, healthy eating,
0:16:11 > 0:16:15expansion of branded concepts, greater variety of choice and halal.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18At the moment, we are trialling in Asda, Sainsbury's,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21we are in final talks to supply Compass and Sodexo,
0:16:21 > 0:16:24for their football grounds and universities,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27and also in final discussions with easyJet for their winter routes.
0:16:27 > 0:16:29Thank you, Dragons, for listening to my pitch.
0:16:29 > 0:16:33I have some sample platters for you guys to try.
0:16:35 > 0:16:40With his sandwich wraps inspired by street food from across the globe...
0:16:40 > 0:16:42- I'll deliver to the others. - You're sweet.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44- Thank you so much.- (I'm sweet!)
0:16:44 > 0:16:50Sunil Kavuri is hoping to appeal to the multicultural British consumer.
0:16:50 > 0:16:53But first he will need to tickle the taste buds of the Dragons,
0:16:53 > 0:16:56who he is hoping to extract £80,000 from.
0:16:57 > 0:17:01In return for the cash, he will give up 5% of his business.
0:17:01 > 0:17:06But first, Peter Jones wants to find out more about his colourful career.
0:17:08 > 0:17:12Sunil, tell me a little bit about yourself.
0:17:12 > 0:17:16So, I went to university at the London School of Economics.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18I did my masters at Cambridge University,
0:17:18 > 0:17:22and at the same time I was modelling so, you know,
0:17:22 > 0:17:24actually I did quite a lot of work for Big Brother
0:17:24 > 0:17:26and O2 mobile phones.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28In 2003, became an A-list celebrity.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31I was on TV 70,000 times.
0:17:31 > 0:17:32You were an A-list celebrity?
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Apparently so. But that was, obviously,
0:17:35 > 0:17:36I'm relatively educated,
0:17:36 > 0:17:39so I was doing this at the same time while I was studying.
0:17:39 > 0:17:43But the career progression was either go into acting,
0:17:43 > 0:17:46or continue modelling, or...or finance
0:17:46 > 0:17:50and, I mean, I decided to go for finance.
0:17:50 > 0:17:52And you went to Cambridge University.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54- Yes.- And what degree did you get?
0:17:54 > 0:17:56A Masters in finance.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59My undergraduate, I studied at London School of Economics
0:17:59 > 0:18:03and I was awarded the prize for first out of 675 students.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06So, I joined actually Deutsche Bank after that,
0:18:06 > 0:18:10and then I moved to Morgan Stanley. It was pretty much the same.
0:18:10 > 0:18:12And then at JP Morgan.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14I have a real work ethic.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17I used to get into work at about six o'clock and leave at ten
0:18:17 > 0:18:19or 11 o'clock. It's because I enjoy it.
0:18:19 > 0:18:23It's not necessarily for the money, it's just because inside I'm driven.
0:18:23 > 0:18:24I have a strong work ethic.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27I like being a success in everything I do.
0:18:27 > 0:18:30What is special about the food?
0:18:30 > 0:18:32What we have found in the supermarkets was
0:18:32 > 0:18:33the food was relatively boring,
0:18:33 > 0:18:36and I try to bring the street food concept,
0:18:36 > 0:18:37which the British public love,
0:18:37 > 0:18:39to the supermarkets, to retail.
0:18:39 > 0:18:41So I believe that the product,
0:18:41 > 0:18:45it's not available at the moment relative to the competitors.
0:18:47 > 0:18:50Sunil continues to emphasise the work ethic
0:18:50 > 0:18:54that lies behind his food-to-go business concept.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56But Sarah Willingham,
0:18:56 > 0:18:59the investor who knows first-hand how to grow
0:18:59 > 0:19:00a lucrative food business,
0:19:00 > 0:19:03is far more concerned with his product.
0:19:05 > 0:19:08I think it is a very, very difficult market.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11If you are saying that your USP is that you're halal,
0:19:11 > 0:19:14my sandwich has got bacon in it for a start.
0:19:14 > 0:19:15It is halal bacon.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17- Halal bacon?- It's not pork.
0:19:17 > 0:19:19- There is no pork in it. - It doesn't...
0:19:19 > 0:19:24I think one of the issues is that your market is halal.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26Actually, it's a dual product.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29The reason why we made it halal is that anyone can eat it.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33It wasn't specifically for Muslims, and you see a trend -
0:19:33 > 0:19:36all brands are going that way.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39Subway, they have converted 200 of their stores to halal.
0:19:39 > 0:19:44The problem is it's not communicated at all, so if I am Muslim and I want
0:19:44 > 0:19:46to know that that's not real bacon,
0:19:46 > 0:19:50and if I'm not, I want to know that it is real bacon, probably.
0:19:50 > 0:19:52So I think it's a very difficult market
0:19:52 > 0:19:55that you're entering, and I think you've really got to be
0:19:55 > 0:19:56very, very good.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02Sarah Willingham casts doubt that Sunil's product range
0:20:02 > 0:20:04can find traction in a marketplace
0:20:04 > 0:20:07crowded with takeaway sandwich big hitters.
0:20:08 > 0:20:12But it's his packaging that has caught Nick Jenkins' attention.
0:20:12 > 0:20:13On this packaging,
0:20:13 > 0:20:16it has Go Gafoor Inc, 43 Berkeley Square...
0:20:16 > 0:20:19That's the company that owns Great Grub.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23- So, Go Gafoor Inc. Inc. Is that an American company?- Sorry?
0:20:23 > 0:20:25- Is it what? - Is it an American company?
0:20:25 > 0:20:27- No, no.- Why is it Inc?
0:20:27 > 0:20:29My partner just asked,
0:20:29 > 0:20:33suggested the name Go Gafoor Inc, and so I said fine.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35No, no, no. Sorry, there is a legal distinction,
0:20:35 > 0:20:37because if it was a UK... Is it a UK...
0:20:37 > 0:20:40- It's a UK company. - It's a UK company, OK.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44Then Inc is incorporated, short for incorporated, an American company.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46Oh, OK.
0:20:46 > 0:20:48You worked in a bank. I mean, come on.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50I was on the trading floor, I don't...
0:20:50 > 0:20:51I mean, I don't...
0:20:51 > 0:20:53That's slightly worrying.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56I mean, this is quite...
0:20:56 > 0:20:58quite basic.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00My partner chose the name of the company.
0:21:00 > 0:21:03It's not the name of the company. Inc is not the name of the company.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06It's the legal designation of it.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08He... I know the legal designation...
0:21:08 > 0:21:10I'm not sure why he...
0:21:10 > 0:21:12I'm not sure why you didn't notice it.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Registered the company as Go Gafoor Inc.
0:21:14 > 0:21:16OK, so if I went into Companies House now,
0:21:16 > 0:21:18I'd find Go Gafoor Inc Ltd, would I?
0:21:18 > 0:21:20Yeah, I presume so.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22You presume so? It's the name of your company!
0:21:22 > 0:21:24- Sorry?- You presume so?
0:21:24 > 0:21:26It's true, yes, you would find it.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28Quite apart from the fact that I'm...
0:21:28 > 0:21:31It concerns me that you own a company called Go Gafoor Inc,
0:21:31 > 0:21:33and it didn't strike you as slightly odd.
0:21:33 > 0:21:34Mm.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39And you worked in three investment banks.
0:21:39 > 0:21:40God help us!
0:21:42 > 0:21:45A large dose of incredulity from Nick Jenkins
0:21:45 > 0:21:49over Sunil's uncertainty of his company's legal name.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53And now Peter Jones wants clarity on the price tag
0:21:53 > 0:21:55he's placed on his business.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02You value this business at 1.5 million today.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05- Yes.- So, how much money have you made?
0:22:05 > 0:22:07Give me this year's revenue and profit.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10This year's revenue... I mean, we've only been trading for a year.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14We've £112,000, about £20,000 profit.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19Um, yeah...
0:22:19 > 0:22:22What's disappointing is you make the assumption that actually, Peter,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25that demonstrates that this business today is worth 1.5 million.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27I'm not going to let you get away with that.
0:22:27 > 0:22:32Because unless you're going to tell me you have a forward contract with
0:22:32 > 0:22:35somebody which is going to give me comfort
0:22:35 > 0:22:39that the next 12 months your earnings substantially increase
0:22:39 > 0:22:42to get to the valuation in this food business.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45- Of course.- So what is your forecast for the next 12 months?
0:22:45 > 0:22:50- Sales...- Forecast revenue is based on, I would say, easyJet, Sodexo
0:22:50 > 0:22:53and Compass, and a coffee chain. Revenue and profit...
0:22:53 > 0:22:55Have you got any of those at the moment?
0:22:55 > 0:22:57Yeah. So we are in discussions with them.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00In discussions is different to...
0:23:00 > 0:23:02No-one's signed a formal contract.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06So, what is your forecast for the next 12 months?
0:23:06 > 0:23:101.1 million revenue and 300,000 profit, net profit.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15But you don't have any contracts whatsoever that will support
0:23:15 > 0:23:17- that at the moment?- No.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23Sunil fails to justify that hefty valuation
0:23:23 > 0:23:25on his fledgling business.
0:23:25 > 0:23:28And that's not gone down well with Deborah Meaden.
0:23:30 > 0:23:34You are representing your business, and what happens in Dragons' Den is
0:23:34 > 0:23:36we ask you to explain your business.
0:23:36 > 0:23:40We haven't even got down to that because you're not really sure,
0:23:40 > 0:23:42you presume that your name is Go Gafoor Inc Ltd.
0:23:42 > 0:23:44No, no, I am sure, I just said...
0:23:44 > 0:23:45I apologise.
0:23:45 > 0:23:49OK. Or you don't appear to get the difference between Inc and Ltd.
0:23:49 > 0:23:50I apologise for that.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52No way can you come in here and say that a business,
0:23:52 > 0:23:57£120,000 profit... Sorry, £120,000 turnover,
0:23:57 > 0:24:01£20,000 profit is worth £1.5 million.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05- OK.- You've given me nothing.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09Absolutely nothing. I'm really sorry. I won't go over it.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10- I'm out.- OK, thanks.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15Some food for thought from Deborah Meaden,
0:24:15 > 0:24:19who becomes the first Dragon to walk away from the deal.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21Sarah Willingham, who made her millions rolling out
0:24:21 > 0:24:23restaurant franchises around the globe,
0:24:23 > 0:24:26has also arrived at a verdict.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34Sunil, the real problem is...
0:24:35 > 0:24:39And I understand why you did it, but when you come in here and you
0:24:39 > 0:24:44did spend a lot of time kind of giving us the big "I am"
0:24:44 > 0:24:48and, actually, all we really want to know is about the sandwiches
0:24:48 > 0:24:50and how you're going to get it into the stores
0:24:50 > 0:24:53and why you love that and what's great about them.
0:24:55 > 0:24:56I'm sorry, I'm out.
0:24:56 > 0:24:57OK, thanks.
0:25:00 > 0:25:03Sarah Willingham declines the opportunity to add Great Grub
0:25:03 > 0:25:06to her investment portfolio.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09Has Touker Suleyman been convinced?
0:25:11 > 0:25:14Oh, you look like you've had seven rounds
0:25:14 > 0:25:16with some heavyweight fighter.
0:25:18 > 0:25:19Yeah.
0:25:20 > 0:25:24Look, I'm not going to invest, but I wish you all the best and I'm out.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28What I want is evidence of where this business is going
0:25:28 > 0:25:30to be in three years' time
0:25:30 > 0:25:32and the likelihood of that happening.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35I'm sort of expecting to be much sharper on that.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39I'm afraid I just can't get excited enough about this to invest,
0:25:39 > 0:25:41and I'm afraid, unfortunately, I'm out.
0:25:41 > 0:25:42- Thanks.- OK.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47Nick Jenkins loses his appetite for the investment
0:25:47 > 0:25:49and walks away from the deal.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52Only Peter Jones remains.
0:25:52 > 0:25:57So far, he's been unimpressed by Sunil's lack of forward contracts
0:25:57 > 0:25:59and his hefty company valuation.
0:25:59 > 0:26:05But has the food entrepreneur's work ethic struck any chords with
0:26:05 > 0:26:06this last remaining Dragon?
0:26:07 > 0:26:10I think you've made a misjudgement of the pitch that you put across.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14- Yeah.- I don't think you should take this personally.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17I'm not going to invest in the business,
0:26:17 > 0:26:18but I really think you need
0:26:18 > 0:26:20to go away and really think about the product,
0:26:20 > 0:26:22do a bit more research, look into it,
0:26:22 > 0:26:26spend a bit more time with your partner and then look at how you can
0:26:26 > 0:26:27go and build a successful business, OK?
0:26:27 > 0:26:29- OK, thanks.- So I'm going to say,
0:26:29 > 0:26:33"Look, Sunil, I'm out, but I wish you the very best, and good luck.
0:26:33 > 0:26:34Thanks, Peter.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Unfortunately for Sunil,
0:26:39 > 0:26:42his sandwich business never managed to excite the Dragons.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45He leaves the Den with nothing.
0:26:48 > 0:26:49Just such a tough market.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52I think it's back to the drawing board for him.
0:26:52 > 0:26:53I think so, yeah.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56It is disappointing because, you know,
0:26:56 > 0:26:58they didn't look at my work ethic,
0:26:58 > 0:27:00my drive, my ambition.
0:27:00 > 0:27:04Nothing. But it doesn't fault the long-term business potential,
0:27:04 > 0:27:07so I will fight on. For sure, I'll fight on.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18Still to come on tonight's show...
0:27:18 > 0:27:20We can't reveal the name on television.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22I'm sorry, you know the deal - you come into the Den,
0:27:22 > 0:27:23everything is on air.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26If I was to do it, I'd want a bigger percentage.
0:27:26 > 0:27:28It's not worth my while.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31Will anyone clinch an investment?
0:27:31 > 0:27:35I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it's immense.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42These days, there seems to be
0:27:42 > 0:27:45a price comparison website for everything,
0:27:45 > 0:27:47but our next entrepreneurs think
0:27:47 > 0:27:50they've cornered a section of the market previously unexplored.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52They've big plans for their business
0:27:52 > 0:27:55and are very specific about who they want to get them there.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00Do we both look all right?
0:28:00 > 0:28:02- Yeah.- Look all right.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08There's two Dragons we're interested in being on board.
0:28:08 > 0:28:09The first is Nick,
0:28:09 > 0:28:13because of his success building a start-up tech company.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19And the other Dragon we're interested in is Sarah,
0:28:19 > 0:28:21because of her experience building a comparison site.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37Hi. I'm Sam Coley.
0:28:37 > 0:28:40And hi, I'm Steve Pearce.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42And we are the co-founders of TickX,
0:28:42 > 0:28:48here today asking for £75,000 for 5% equity in our tech business.
0:28:48 > 0:28:52TickX is a platform to discover great events,
0:28:52 > 0:28:57compare ticket prices and buy in seconds with no added fees.
0:28:57 > 0:28:58It's as simple as that.
0:28:59 > 0:29:04And our aim is to become the Sky Scanner or the Go Compare
0:29:04 > 0:29:05of event ticketing.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07So, why do you need TickX?
0:29:07 > 0:29:10The events industry is fragmented.
0:29:10 > 0:29:11There are too many websites,
0:29:11 > 0:29:15too many ticket sellers and too many claims to offer the best deals.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18Knowing there must be a better way, we created TickX,
0:29:18 > 0:29:21which compares prices from 20 leading ticket sellers
0:29:21 > 0:29:24and for over 50,000 events.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27In September 2015, we raised £175,000
0:29:27 > 0:29:29to accelerate our development.
0:29:29 > 0:29:31We have since been featured
0:29:31 > 0:29:33in Virgin's Young Entrepreneurs To Watch
0:29:33 > 0:29:38and now have over 18,000 event goers using our platforms each month.
0:29:38 > 0:29:41Our users love TickX because it's completely free to use and we
0:29:41 > 0:29:43charge no additional fees.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45We make our revenue by receiving commission
0:29:45 > 0:29:48on the sales we generate for our ticket seller partners.
0:29:48 > 0:29:49It is a win-win for everyone.
0:29:49 > 0:29:53Comparison sites have been proven in almost every industry,
0:29:53 > 0:29:55and now it's time for events.
0:29:55 > 0:29:59Thank you for listening and we look forward to your questions.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04Ticking all the boxes with a confident pitch
0:30:04 > 0:30:06are 24-year-old Steve Pearce
0:30:06 > 0:30:08and Sam Coley, who is 23.
0:30:08 > 0:30:13They are touting 5% of their ticket price comparison website in exchange
0:30:13 > 0:30:16for the princely sum of £75,000.
0:30:17 > 0:30:21Sarah Willingham wants to know if a platform like this
0:30:21 > 0:30:24is just the ticket to revolutionise the events industry.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30Guys, I know a reasonable amount about the comparison market,
0:30:30 > 0:30:33both from the consumer end and also from the business side and,
0:30:33 > 0:30:35you know, if you look at comparison
0:30:35 > 0:30:37across financial services or across travel, you've
0:30:37 > 0:30:43got a massive variety of prices for lots of similar products.
0:30:43 > 0:30:44Not always for the same.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47Now, with tickets, if I want to go and see Adele,
0:30:47 > 0:30:50who governs the price of that ticket to see Adele?
0:30:50 > 0:30:54So, the artist or the promoter will set the price of the ticket.
0:30:54 > 0:30:56OK, so if I then go online,
0:30:56 > 0:30:59can I buy that ticket more or less anywhere?
0:30:59 > 0:31:02Yes, because you've got these tickets split across these sellers,
0:31:02 > 0:31:05one ticket seller can sell out of the cheaper band of tickets.
0:31:05 > 0:31:06If you go to their website direct,
0:31:06 > 0:31:08you would think they were sold out
0:31:08 > 0:31:10and you'd have to buy more expensive, but with ours,
0:31:10 > 0:31:13because we compare them all, you can find someone else has those tickets
0:31:13 > 0:31:16still available and those savings then can be quite big.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19And tell me specifically about whether or not,
0:31:19 > 0:31:20when you've got six people
0:31:20 > 0:31:23who are able to sell tickets for a particular event,
0:31:23 > 0:31:26in order to be able to see the availability of those tickets now,
0:31:26 > 0:31:28I would have to go into each one of those websites...
0:31:28 > 0:31:32- Yeah.- And I will see a different availability map on each one.
0:31:32 > 0:31:33Is that right?
0:31:33 > 0:31:36So, what most people do in the past is you get Google open,
0:31:36 > 0:31:38you would click in each, having a look.
0:31:38 > 0:31:40Go into one, find it's sold out, go and look at another.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43Obviously, that's really time-consuming and painful,
0:31:43 > 0:31:45so we take that away straightaway.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47I think it's a very good idea.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50I'm slightly surprised it hasn't been done so far, but then...
0:31:50 > 0:31:51We get that a lot.
0:31:53 > 0:31:58The Dragon who built an e-commerce business worth £120 million
0:31:58 > 0:32:02gives the entrepreneurs' business plan his seal of approval.
0:32:02 > 0:32:07But Steve and Sam's other preferred Dragon wants to know how they intend
0:32:07 > 0:32:08to reach a mass market.
0:32:11 > 0:32:16Where the biggest challenge is by far is why is the consumer
0:32:16 > 0:32:19going to come to you rather than anywhere else?
0:32:19 > 0:32:21How do I know about you?
0:32:21 > 0:32:24How? Well, that's through our marketing strategy.
0:32:24 > 0:32:26What is the marketing strategy?
0:32:26 > 0:32:29We've been in dialogue with Google about doing
0:32:29 > 0:32:32app promotion, desktop promotion campaigns.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37The problem you will have is you are competing against guys that spend
0:32:37 > 0:32:40hundreds of millions of pounds.
0:32:40 > 0:32:45It's that traction that makes you the first port of call
0:32:45 > 0:32:47rather than Ticketmaster. Because that's still...
0:32:47 > 0:32:49That's what is in the consumers' minds.
0:32:49 > 0:32:52It's changing user behaviour as well because people know car insurance,
0:32:52 > 0:32:54you know to compare prices.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56People need to start realising
0:32:56 > 0:32:58that with events you should do it as well.
0:32:58 > 0:33:00And to change that consumer behaviour for car insurance,
0:33:00 > 0:33:05it has cost hundreds and hundreds of millions of pounds
0:33:05 > 0:33:11by a group of very large comparison sites over the last 12 years.
0:33:11 > 0:33:15I'm not saying it's not possible, I'm just saying it's immense.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22The Dragon with price comparison form provides a reality check on
0:33:22 > 0:33:25the entrepreneurs' ambitious plans.
0:33:25 > 0:33:28And now Nick Jenkins wants to know
0:33:28 > 0:33:31how they funded their progress so far.
0:33:34 > 0:33:38- You raised 175K?- Yes.- From whom?
0:33:38 > 0:33:40So, we've got three angel investors
0:33:40 > 0:33:44and we've got one of the biggest music brands in the world.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46- One of the biggest...? - Music brands in the world.
0:33:46 > 0:33:49- A brand?- An iconic music brand.
0:33:49 > 0:33:50Go on, then. You are going to have to tell us.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53We can't reveal the name on television because the CEO
0:33:53 > 0:33:55of the company has asked us to keep it confidential.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58- I think that's really...- He likes to control his own press activity.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03Is he a controlling shareholder, then?
0:34:03 > 0:34:06He... They are at the moment, yes.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08So let's talk about that. Let's talk about the shareholding.
0:34:08 > 0:34:13- Who has got what?- So, the biggest shareholder apart from ourselves,
0:34:13 > 0:34:17- has 10%.- Can I just ask what he invested to get that 10%?
0:34:17 > 0:34:22- So, they... - We can't actually reveal that.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25They don't want us to reveal that either, unfortunately.
0:34:26 > 0:34:27This is nonsense, guys.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30You can't come in here and try and ask for money and then say,
0:34:30 > 0:34:32I can't tell you who the other shareholders are,
0:34:32 > 0:34:35what they invested, at what time they invested.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37You've got to share that.
0:34:37 > 0:34:39We understand it's hugely important and it's why
0:34:39 > 0:34:42we haven't been given permission to reveal...
0:34:42 > 0:34:44- He can't control that. - But you are prepared to reveal that,
0:34:44 > 0:34:48you're prepared to reveal that to us before we make a decision, but you
0:34:48 > 0:34:50don't want it going on-air?
0:34:50 > 0:34:52Yes, that's their decision.
0:34:52 > 0:34:53Well...
0:34:53 > 0:34:54I'm sorry, you know the deal.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56You come into the Den, everything is on-air.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02So, have you got the forms to look at so I can see
0:35:02 > 0:35:03- who this investor is?- Yeah.
0:35:03 > 0:35:05Ridiculous.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12- That's the term sheet. - And that's the shareholders.
0:35:12 > 0:35:13The shareholders agreement.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18Oh, yes. Got it.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23- Oh, that's who it is. OK.- Yes.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26To be fair, I have no problem with the Ministry Of Sound at all.
0:35:26 > 0:35:28I think they are a good brand, good company.
0:35:29 > 0:35:31So that is a tick in the box for me.
0:35:35 > 0:35:40Attempts to keep things confidential never go down well with the Dragons.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43But a business that is attractive to a big industry player will certainly
0:35:43 > 0:35:45win you friends in the Den.
0:35:46 > 0:35:51However, for Deborah Meaden, the revelation suggests this is a case
0:35:51 > 0:35:52of too many cooks.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57You're going to need more cash and you need a bit more time and I would
0:35:57 > 0:35:59just become one of those list of great names
0:35:59 > 0:36:02that you got involved in the business.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04It's kind of not my style of investing.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06Very rarely do I just put my cash in and say,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09"Lovely, you've got my name, now just get on with it."
0:36:09 > 0:36:11- You know. So I won't be investing. - I understand that.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13- Thank you.- I'm out.
0:36:16 > 0:36:18No tick from Deborah Meaden.
0:36:18 > 0:36:22Out because the investment doesn't offer enough of a stake in
0:36:22 > 0:36:23the business.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26But the Dragons the entrepreneurs came in for are still in
0:36:26 > 0:36:30the running, and one of them is about to reach her verdict.
0:36:32 > 0:36:36Anything that makes pricing more transparent for the consumer
0:36:36 > 0:36:40I think is great, and the more the merrier.
0:36:40 > 0:36:42But I'm also very aware,
0:36:42 > 0:36:45and it's also from experience - and hard experience -
0:36:45 > 0:36:46it is very, very,
0:36:46 > 0:36:52very difficult to get your name out there so that you are the first port
0:36:52 > 0:36:54of call for that consumer.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57So I really hope you do it,
0:36:57 > 0:37:00but I'm afraid it's not for me.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02Good luck. I'm afraid I'm out.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06A heavy blow for the entrepreneurs,
0:37:06 > 0:37:10as one of their most coveted Dragons bows out.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14Sarah Willingham's exit clears the way for the other Dragons.
0:37:14 > 0:37:18Will tech giant Peter Jones see traction in TickX?
0:37:21 > 0:37:24The big issue I have about this is I think,
0:37:24 > 0:37:26as you grow your business model,
0:37:26 > 0:37:29you are going to come under pressure from the very people that you're
0:37:29 > 0:37:31trying to help today.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35So, what this investment comes down to is are you going to be the next
0:37:35 > 0:37:37Uber of the event marketplace?
0:37:37 > 0:37:39That's what you're really coming up with, in a nutshell.
0:37:39 > 0:37:41I completely agree.
0:37:44 > 0:37:45I actually think...
0:37:45 > 0:37:47I was about to go out and have just
0:37:47 > 0:37:49talked myself into potentially making an offer.
0:37:49 > 0:37:50Please do!
0:37:56 > 0:37:59So, guys, I'm going to make you an offer.
0:37:59 > 0:38:00- Thank you.- Fantastic.
0:38:03 > 0:38:06But I'm going to de-risk it because I'm actually going to offer you half
0:38:06 > 0:38:08- of the money.- OK.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11And I'm going to be really specific with this because I think
0:38:11 > 0:38:13you're going to need a little bit of a helping hand
0:38:13 > 0:38:15with somebody that has real intrinsic knowledge.
0:38:15 > 0:38:19I know that Nick, for example, has got great experience,
0:38:19 > 0:38:23specifically in what you are going to need to achieve.
0:38:23 > 0:38:25I'm going to offer half of the money...
0:38:27 > 0:38:28..but I want 10%.
0:38:32 > 0:38:37Peter Jones does a U-turn and makes a strategic offer with the proviso
0:38:37 > 0:38:39that Nick Jenkins also comes on board.
0:38:40 > 0:38:45Will the online innovator think this website could be the gateway
0:38:45 > 0:38:46to more success?
0:38:48 > 0:38:50I think one of the things to understand here,
0:38:50 > 0:38:52compared with a financial investment,
0:38:52 > 0:38:56is that when we make these investments on here,
0:38:56 > 0:38:59we are giving so much more than just writing a cheque.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02Here, you need our input, and in particular,
0:39:02 > 0:39:04you need a lot of input on customer acquisition,
0:39:04 > 0:39:07and that's something I've got a track record in.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11So, I'll offer the other half for 10%.
0:39:14 > 0:39:19A joint bid on the table, asking for 20% of the business.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22But offering a wealth of experience and one of the Dragons
0:39:22 > 0:39:25Sam and Steve were so keen to secure.
0:39:25 > 0:39:29Time for some tactical thinking by Touker Suleyman.
0:39:31 > 0:39:37I don't normally invest as a passive investor.
0:39:37 > 0:39:40I've got a very similar online business called Bikesoup.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44- Yes.- They are on my premises, I'm with them all day long.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46We are working together with developers.
0:39:50 > 0:39:51Now...
0:39:53 > 0:39:55..I'll give you all the money for 15%.
0:39:57 > 0:39:59- Right, OK.- Thank you very much.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05A setback for the Jones/Jenkins partnership
0:40:05 > 0:40:08as Touker Suleyman comes in with a 5% lower offer.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13- Can we have a word? - Sure.- Thank you.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16Two bids have now been tendered,
0:40:16 > 0:40:18both at a much greater equity stake
0:40:18 > 0:40:21than the entrepreneurs were offering,
0:40:21 > 0:40:24posing a dilemma for the young businessmen.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28Did you want to say all three is in?
0:40:28 > 0:40:30If we've already discounted?
0:40:30 > 0:40:33Yeah, we can't...
0:40:33 > 0:40:35We can't.
0:40:35 > 0:40:37- I'll do it.- OK, great.
0:40:37 > 0:40:38Yeah. OK.
0:40:43 > 0:40:48So, thank you, all three of you, for the offer.
0:40:48 > 0:40:52I think the problem is we just couldn't drop our valuation,
0:40:52 > 0:40:54and I don't know if there's any movement,
0:40:54 > 0:40:56but we couldn't go to those kind of percentages.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02You've already given these guys 15% for 75K.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07That was at the very first stages.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09We've significantly de-risked it now.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16I think we're probably going to struggle to agree on terms here.
0:41:16 > 0:41:18We wouldn't be able to move far enough.
0:41:20 > 0:41:21Good luck, but I'm out.
0:41:23 > 0:41:25I'm not willing to change my offer.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28I think my offer was very fair, so I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:41:30 > 0:41:32Stalemate.
0:41:32 > 0:41:36Leading to the loss of two Dragons and all the experience they bring.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40Will Touker Suleyman be prepared to negotiate?
0:41:41 > 0:41:45OK. Look, guys. It's very apparent where you're at.
0:41:47 > 0:41:49I'm tempted.
0:41:54 > 0:41:59However, I'm not willing to lower my percentage.
0:42:01 > 0:42:03For that reason, I'm out.
0:42:03 > 0:42:04- Thank you.- Thank you.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08So near, yet so far.
0:42:08 > 0:42:13Steve and Sam's refusal to give away a bigger equity stake leads to them
0:42:13 > 0:42:17leaving the Den without that winning ticket for a Dragon partner.
0:42:19 > 0:42:20That was intense.
0:42:20 > 0:42:25That really was. Well, that was an experience, to say the least.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28I feel like I've been in the ring for about four hours.
0:42:28 > 0:42:30About the hardest thing I've done.
0:42:30 > 0:42:34- That was hard.- Yeah, it really was.
0:42:34 > 0:42:35I think the difficulty is when
0:42:35 > 0:42:39they've got a shareholder structure in advance of coming here,
0:42:39 > 0:42:41it's very difficult for them to manoeuvre.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44They might live to regret it when they're struggling to get customers.
0:42:44 > 0:42:46It is a decision which will stick with us forever,
0:42:46 > 0:42:49and I hope we don't regret it.
0:42:55 > 0:42:58Last to face the rapid-fire of the Dragons
0:42:58 > 0:43:01is a partnership who are hoping their careers as captains
0:43:01 > 0:43:04in the Army will prove a good training ground
0:43:04 > 0:43:05for their time in the Den.
0:43:05 > 0:43:08Let's hope they don't get their marching orders
0:43:08 > 0:43:09from our five investors.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15- We're going to do it.- Yeah.
0:43:18 > 0:43:22Both of us have deployed on operations.
0:43:22 > 0:43:24We joined the Army, we went through Sandhurst.
0:43:24 > 0:43:25Got to do some mindfulness.
0:43:25 > 0:43:29Think about your sweaty hands and how they feel clasped together.
0:43:29 > 0:43:31We wouldn't have got through Sandhurst
0:43:31 > 0:43:32if we didn't have a bit of fight
0:43:32 > 0:43:34and a bit of gumption about us.
0:43:35 > 0:43:38I hope that when it does get very tough in the Den,
0:43:38 > 0:43:41we've got that fight in us to really go for it.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57Hello, Dragons. My name is Rachel Day
0:43:57 > 0:44:01and this is Merry Whitaker, and we run Love, Keep, Create.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04We are here today to ask you for £50,000
0:44:04 > 0:44:08in return for a 10% equity share in our business.
0:44:08 > 0:44:12If you've got children or if you've ever had anyone close to you pass
0:44:12 > 0:44:14away, chances are you may have been left
0:44:14 > 0:44:17with a few special items of their clothing that
0:44:17 > 0:44:19you just didn't want to get rid of.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22This was the basis for our business, Love, Keep, Create.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26My husband was deploying to Afghanistan in 2011.
0:44:26 > 0:44:30We had a small baby. So I took some of our son's favourite clothes and
0:44:30 > 0:44:33turned them into a keepsake for my husband to take with him.
0:44:33 > 0:44:34So how does it work?
0:44:34 > 0:44:37You go onto our website and choose from our wide range
0:44:37 > 0:44:39of keepsake designs,
0:44:39 > 0:44:40then send the clothing in to us.
0:44:40 > 0:44:42We create your beautiful keepsake,
0:44:42 > 0:44:44usually embroidering it with a child's name,
0:44:44 > 0:44:47date of birth or other special message.
0:44:48 > 0:44:52In 2015, we turned over £190,068,
0:44:52 > 0:45:00producing 3,292 units with a net profit of £54,783.
0:45:00 > 0:45:06In the first four months of 2016, we've seen a growth rate of 90.6%.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09Thank you very much. We would love to show you some of our products.
0:45:11 > 0:45:16A pitch with military precision from Rachel Day and Merry Whitaker.
0:45:16 > 0:45:20They are looking to enlist a Dragon to their business by offering a 10%
0:45:20 > 0:45:24stake in it. In return, they are asking for £50,000.
0:45:24 > 0:45:26Can I just say I'm delighted I get the dragon
0:45:26 > 0:45:28and Peter's got the monkey.
0:45:28 > 0:45:29I like that a lot.
0:45:30 > 0:45:32I promise you, it wasn't...
0:45:33 > 0:45:35- Love it! - OK, got it.
0:45:35 > 0:45:39Peter Jones is first to question the entrepreneurs.
0:45:44 > 0:45:47I don't want to ask, but I'm hoping this commando is still
0:45:47 > 0:45:49- alive somewhere?- It's my husband's.
0:45:49 > 0:45:50- It is her husband's shirt.- Good.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53He's actually in the building upstairs, I believe.
0:45:53 > 0:45:55Is he, really? So that is a shirt.
0:45:55 > 0:45:57So they send the shirt and then...
0:45:57 > 0:46:00How do I choose this, and is most of your business online?
0:46:00 > 0:46:03People can go onto our website. They can choose.
0:46:03 > 0:46:06We've got lots of different types of keepsake categories.
0:46:06 > 0:46:08That's what we call our military monkey.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11So people select the item that they want,
0:46:11 > 0:46:14they get a whole load of options that they can click on to add
0:46:14 > 0:46:18embroidery, to make it large size, things like that.
0:46:18 > 0:46:20And your team that work for you,
0:46:20 > 0:46:21are they employed, or are they
0:46:21 > 0:46:24on piece work, or are they self-employed? How does that work?
0:46:24 > 0:46:28So, currently we have five people who are on employed contracts
0:46:28 > 0:46:31and we have two or three who are self-employed.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34And this year, what do you think your turnover is going to be?
0:46:34 > 0:46:38Our projection for this year is 323,000.
0:46:38 > 0:46:40What do you need to do to achieve that?
0:46:40 > 0:46:42Can you do that within your existing organisation,
0:46:42 > 0:46:44with the same number of seamstresses?
0:46:44 > 0:46:48We actually take 44%, generally,
0:46:48 > 0:46:52of our orders between the 1st of September and the end of November.
0:46:52 > 0:46:54So it is quite a seasonal business.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58So we have made relationships with a couple of local textile factories
0:46:58 > 0:47:03that could offer us a number of hours per week to enable that
0:47:03 > 0:47:06kind of rapid increase in orders.
0:47:06 > 0:47:07That's really interesting.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09I think that answers one of the questions that I had,
0:47:09 > 0:47:12which is about one of the greatest problems with this kind of business
0:47:12 > 0:47:14is managing seasonal demand.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16Because you've got very little going on,
0:47:16 > 0:47:19you have to have sufficient premises to be able to deal with your
0:47:19 > 0:47:21Christmas spike and you've got to have people trained up
0:47:21 > 0:47:23to deal with the Christmas spike
0:47:23 > 0:47:24and then what do you with them
0:47:24 > 0:47:26for the remaining nine months of the year?
0:47:26 > 0:47:28But it sounds like you've got that cracked.
0:47:30 > 0:47:31Very good.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37If anyone knows about the problems of seasonality,
0:47:37 > 0:47:40it's the king of greetings cards, Nick Jenkins.
0:47:40 > 0:47:43But his obvious approval aside,
0:47:43 > 0:47:47Peter Jones wants to know more about that spike in orders in the autumn.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52- Why September? - Just the build-up to Christmas.
0:47:52 > 0:47:53OK, so that's nothing to do
0:47:53 > 0:47:56with your specific marketing and targeting?
0:47:56 > 0:47:59We do very limited marketing, currently.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03And this is... A small part of the investment we want is to allocate
0:48:03 > 0:48:05to a proper marketing budget.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08Every time we've done a campaign, it has had great results.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11We have worked it out basically that, in terms of net profit,
0:48:11 > 0:48:15so for a £500 spend on Facebook advertising,
0:48:15 > 0:48:18we get about £2,000 net profit.
0:48:18 > 0:48:19Wow!
0:48:20 > 0:48:25OK, my reaction to that would be, fill your boots!
0:48:25 > 0:48:30- Exactly.- And keep filling your boots until you reach resistance,
0:48:30 > 0:48:32and then you wouldn't need us at all.
0:48:34 > 0:48:37Partly, we've been hampered by our existing website
0:48:37 > 0:48:41which hasn't been tracking the conversions.
0:48:41 > 0:48:45So... And this is all part of our ongoing learning curve.
0:48:45 > 0:48:47Like we said, we are not entrepreneurs
0:48:47 > 0:48:49and businesspeople by nature.
0:48:49 > 0:48:50We have got where we are today
0:48:50 > 0:48:52through learning everything ourselves,
0:48:52 > 0:48:54the long and hard way.
0:48:54 > 0:48:56Don't think you're not an entrepreneur just because
0:48:56 > 0:48:57you've had to learn the hard way.
0:48:57 > 0:49:00I don't know any entrepreneur that hasn't learnt it the hard way.
0:49:00 > 0:49:03Yeah. And your business has actually made a profit in its first year.
0:49:03 > 0:49:05Mine certainly didn't do that.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07So you are a much better entrepreneur than him.
0:49:07 > 0:49:09Much, much, much better!
0:49:12 > 0:49:15News of a profit quadrupling marketing plan
0:49:15 > 0:49:18has certainly got the Dragons standing to attention.
0:49:18 > 0:49:21And high street retailer Touker Suleyman
0:49:21 > 0:49:23has another reason to be impressed.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28Mine is made of a Hawes & Curtis shirt.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31- Yes.- A beautiful... What? 100 doubles fabric?
0:49:32 > 0:49:35That our daddy dress. We take Mummy's, Daddy's,
0:49:35 > 0:49:39grandparents' shirts, and when they get a bit worn out round the cuffs
0:49:39 > 0:49:41and collars, we can turn them into a dress for a little girl.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44We also do a version of a shirt for a little boy.
0:49:44 > 0:49:49Somebody's gone to a lot of design skill to design that.
0:49:51 > 0:49:55Do you have any of your stuffed animals ready-made
0:49:55 > 0:49:58so you just put embroidery on and send it out?
0:49:58 > 0:50:01Or everything you do is recycled?
0:50:01 > 0:50:03At the moment, everything is recycled.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06We haven't gone down that route at the moment
0:50:06 > 0:50:08because this is working for us.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11I can understand if you said, we've got 24 characters,
0:50:11 > 0:50:13we can offer those ready-made
0:50:13 > 0:50:16and that is for our instant business and we
0:50:16 > 0:50:20offer another service which is a very niche business.
0:50:20 > 0:50:22I'm not sure. I think you've got a great idea.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24My only reservation would be...
0:50:27 > 0:50:29..how far can you grow it?
0:50:31 > 0:50:35Touker Suleyman casts a seed of doubt over the scalability
0:50:35 > 0:50:37of this bespoke business.
0:50:38 > 0:50:41But could Deborah Meaden be toying with investment?
0:50:44 > 0:50:46People always say to me, "What's that moment in the Den?"
0:50:46 > 0:50:49I say when you get the combination of clearly a good product
0:50:49 > 0:50:51with good people, and you are that.
0:50:53 > 0:50:55So, I am going to make you an offer,
0:50:55 > 0:50:58and, following those words, it would be very rude of me not to offer
0:50:58 > 0:51:00on the basis that you have asked.
0:51:02 > 0:51:05So, make you an offer of £50,000 at the...
0:51:05 > 0:51:08And I want 10% of the business, which is what you offered.
0:51:09 > 0:51:11- Thank you.- Thank you so much.
0:51:14 > 0:51:16HE WHISTLES
0:51:17 > 0:51:19An offer. And a rare one at that.
0:51:19 > 0:51:23Asking for no more equity than the entrepreneurs wanted to give away.
0:51:24 > 0:51:27But has Nick Jenkins seen it all before?
0:51:30 > 0:51:34I get to see quite a lot of personalised gift businesses.
0:51:34 > 0:51:37Surprise, surprise. And I think this is...
0:51:39 > 0:51:41..one of the best personalised products I've seen.
0:51:43 > 0:51:46Because it really touches on what's important about personalisation,
0:51:46 > 0:51:48which is that sentimental connection with somebody,
0:51:48 > 0:51:52and it's not just about writing people's names on things.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55And it's about memories, and that's the most important thing.
0:51:57 > 0:51:58So I'm going to make you an offer.
0:52:01 > 0:52:04I'm going to offer you all the money
0:52:04 > 0:52:07- for 10%.- Thank you.- Thanks.
0:52:10 > 0:52:14Nick Jenkins aligns himself to the entrepreneurs with
0:52:14 > 0:52:16compliments and an offer.
0:52:16 > 0:52:19Does Sarah Willingham also want to love,
0:52:19 > 0:52:22keep and create an investment?
0:52:25 > 0:52:27I love the product. I think the fact
0:52:27 > 0:52:32that quite genuinely it makes me choke a bit when I see that,
0:52:32 > 0:52:33"We miss you Grandad."
0:52:33 > 0:52:36And you think, it really is a memory you've created,
0:52:36 > 0:52:38which I think is exceptional.
0:52:39 > 0:52:42One of the things that I can really help you with is
0:52:42 > 0:52:44on the Facebook advertising side.
0:52:45 > 0:52:51We spend a lot of money on Facebook, with a very high conversion rate.
0:52:51 > 0:52:54It is something we are very, very good at, so I think that is
0:52:54 > 0:52:55something I can help with a lot.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01So, yeah, I'm going to offer you all of the money for exactly what you've
0:53:01 > 0:53:04came and asked for which is, I think, very fair.
0:53:04 > 0:53:0510% of the business.
0:53:06 > 0:53:08Thank you.
0:53:11 > 0:53:15Sarah Willingham attempts to manoeuvre herself into pole position
0:53:15 > 0:53:18by offering not only cash but also
0:53:18 > 0:53:22help with that all-important marketing strategy.
0:53:22 > 0:53:26Is Peter Jones poised to add to the hat-trick of offers already in
0:53:26 > 0:53:27the mix?
0:53:29 > 0:53:33I actually thought for the first time ever in Dragon's history that
0:53:33 > 0:53:37you were going to get an offer for less equity than you asked for.
0:53:42 > 0:53:44And I'm surprised that you haven't, actually.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50So, I think you have a really,
0:53:50 > 0:53:53really neat business, and it is something that...
0:53:55 > 0:53:58..people will really radiate to, and I can see it.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05But - and I do think this is a big but -
0:54:05 > 0:54:07this is a tough business to grow
0:54:07 > 0:54:12because I do think that it will be fairly niche.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15When you bring awareness to it, I then think you're going to see
0:54:15 > 0:54:17people entering the market.
0:54:17 > 0:54:19So, sadly, I'm going to say
0:54:19 > 0:54:23that I'm not going to invest and I'm out for those reasons,
0:54:23 > 0:54:26but only because of those reasons.
0:54:26 > 0:54:27Thank you.
0:54:30 > 0:54:33Peter Jones politely declines the investment offer.
0:54:33 > 0:54:38Can Touker Suleyman put his earlier worries over scale aside
0:54:38 > 0:54:41to add the business to his textile empire?
0:54:45 > 0:54:48Look, I think you're both great.
0:54:48 > 0:54:51I think the product is great, I think your ideas are great.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55You've already had three offers.
0:54:55 > 0:55:00And I am torn because I know what I could do with it,
0:55:00 > 0:55:02but it would take far too much of my time.
0:55:02 > 0:55:08I would help you grow the business and...
0:55:11 > 0:55:13Would you split it? Because you've got a lot of that...
0:55:13 > 0:55:16Obviously, in terms of the production side?
0:55:25 > 0:55:28Look, I'll be honest. If I was to do it, I'd want a bigger percentage.
0:55:28 > 0:55:29It's not worth my while.
0:55:30 > 0:55:32And for that reason, I'm out.
0:55:33 > 0:55:35OK, thank you.
0:55:36 > 0:55:38Touker Suleyman declines the offer,
0:55:38 > 0:55:42leaving three Dragons in and two out.
0:55:42 > 0:55:43Thank you all so much for your offers.
0:55:45 > 0:55:48Would you mind if we just had two minutes just to chat?
0:55:48 > 0:55:49Talk to the wall. Talk to the wall.
0:55:54 > 0:55:55I...
0:55:55 > 0:55:56Your experience is so great.
0:55:56 > 0:56:00I know, I know. But I would want 25% of this.
0:56:00 > 0:56:02Do you want to split it?
0:56:02 > 0:56:05No. No. I think we just go for...
0:56:05 > 0:56:07I think so. I just think...
0:56:07 > 0:56:10With three identical bids on the table
0:56:10 > 0:56:14it's not a question of which offer is right for the entrepreneurs
0:56:14 > 0:56:16but which Dragon.
0:56:16 > 0:56:1910% and it's £50,000.
0:56:19 > 0:56:21- Let's do it.- I'll say.
0:56:27 > 0:56:31As I said, thank you so much for your offers and for your time,
0:56:31 > 0:56:33for us to come and pitch to you today.
0:56:35 > 0:56:36We have made a decision.
0:56:39 > 0:56:42We would love to accept your offer, Deborah.
0:56:45 > 0:56:47Thank you so much, Sarah, and Nick as well.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49- We are really grateful. - I'm really pleased.
0:56:49 > 0:56:51Apart from anything else, I'm from your neck of the woods.
0:56:51 > 0:56:54Victory. Merry and Rachel leave the Den
0:56:54 > 0:56:57with exactly what they came in for -
0:56:57 > 0:56:59£50,000 for 10% equity
0:56:59 > 0:57:02and a Dragon with the know-how to take their business
0:57:02 > 0:57:04to the next level.
0:57:09 > 0:57:12Did that just happen? Did that just happen?
0:57:15 > 0:57:17- Well done, Deborah. - I love that.
0:57:17 > 0:57:19Well, I think you deserve, then, the monkey commando.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22The commando? The monkey commando?
0:57:22 > 0:57:23Thank you very much.
0:57:24 > 0:57:26We are thrilled that we've got Deborah.
0:57:26 > 0:57:28She's got some really relevant experience,
0:57:28 > 0:57:30which will be amazing for us.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32We are just so happy.
0:57:32 > 0:57:36We really are. We need to go and sit down somewhere quiet and open
0:57:36 > 0:57:37a bottle of wine, I think.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46Memorable events in the Den.
0:57:46 > 0:57:50Because there is no second chance when you get an offer from a Dragon.
0:57:50 > 0:57:54You accept right there and then, or you leave with nothing.
0:57:54 > 0:57:56We saw the full range of experiences.
0:57:56 > 0:58:01Steve Pearce and Sam Coley stood their ground and refused to budge on
0:58:01 > 0:58:03that all-important equity stake,
0:58:03 > 0:58:05and then Rachel Day and Merry Whitaker had no
0:58:05 > 0:58:09need to budge, they got exactly what they wanted from Deborah Meaden.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11A striking contrast.
0:58:13 > 0:58:15Coming up next time...
0:58:15 > 0:58:17- You've named her the Don.- I'm happy.
0:58:17 > 0:58:19And then you call Peter Jones the jerk?
0:58:20 > 0:58:21Is that your prediction -
0:58:21 > 0:58:26that every household in the country will own one of those?
0:58:26 > 0:58:28You've now moved into argument mode.
0:58:28 > 0:58:31Take a deep breath and focus on the business.
0:58:31 > 0:58:32You're too niche.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35I think you'll really, really struggle, if I'm being honest.
0:58:36 > 0:58:39It's a black hole, just eating money.
0:58:39 > 0:58:43Oh, yes. Oh, yes, now we're talking.
0:58:43 > 0:58:44I'm going to make you an offer.