0:00:03 > 0:00:06Tonight, five multimillionaires looking for a new partner
0:00:06 > 0:00:08are playing hard to get.
0:00:08 > 0:00:12Right now, you have absolutely
0:00:12 > 0:00:14no negotiating tools in here whatsoever.
0:00:14 > 0:00:17And the Dragons have very high standards.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20- It's not good news.- How much?
0:00:20 > 0:00:23You need to be a little less greedy and start sharing.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26Along the way, there'll be bust-ups...
0:00:26 > 0:00:28I don't think your numbers are wrong...
0:00:28 > 0:00:29I think you're wrong.
0:00:30 > 0:00:33..and sometimes, the chemistry just won't be there.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36- This is a bit of a mess. - There's no carrot there.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38I think you're about to make a very big mistake.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42But who will have their heads turned...
0:00:43 > 0:00:45You are both a credit to female entrepreneurship.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49Enthusiasm, passion, drive, you've got it.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51..and find their perfect match?
0:00:51 > 0:00:53I will make you an offer.
0:00:54 > 0:00:56The magic of Dragons' Den.
0:01:29 > 0:01:31Welcome to Dragons' Den,
0:01:31 > 0:01:35where five powerful Dragons lie in wait for the entrepreneur
0:01:35 > 0:01:39whose business idea gives them an appetite for investment.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42But who will have what it takes to get a Dragon to bite?
0:01:46 > 0:01:50First into the Den, two sisters proposing a toast...
0:01:51 > 0:01:54..to their mission to transform women's lives,
0:01:54 > 0:01:58a road that's already been particularly rocky.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02There's been so many ups and downs in our journey so far,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05and I think we've learnt to sort of embrace the fear.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10Their next hurdle, facing the Dragons.
0:02:10 > 0:02:12It is terrifying, it is absolutely terrifying.
0:02:16 > 0:02:17OK?
0:02:19 > 0:02:21- I guess it's why they're called Dragons.- Yeah.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23We're hoping they're friendly Dragons.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11Hello, my name is Lucy
0:03:11 > 0:03:15and this is my business partner and sister, Lerin.
0:03:15 > 0:03:19Together we have designed, developed, crowd-funded for
0:03:19 > 0:03:20and launched Halto,
0:03:20 > 0:03:24the simple solution to neck pain caused by halterneck swimwear.
0:03:25 > 0:03:29We're asking today for a £50,000 investment in return for 15% shares
0:03:29 > 0:03:31in our company, Julie Rocks Limited.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34Bra sizes in the UK are on the increase,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37with the average now being a 36DD
0:03:37 > 0:03:40and having a weight of around 2.5lbs per boob.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Halterneck swimwear ties at the back of the neck,
0:03:43 > 0:03:47meaning the wearer is carrying around 5lbs of weight in this area,
0:03:47 > 0:03:53often causing bruising, rubbing, neck aches, headaches and blisters.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56Halto fits any tie-strap halterneck bikini,
0:03:56 > 0:03:59by simply feeding the straps through the holes
0:03:59 > 0:04:01and tying on the back of the neck as normal.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03The harder top layer holds the knot in place
0:04:03 > 0:04:05and stops it digging into the wearer's spine
0:04:05 > 0:04:07and the soft under-cushion offers protection
0:04:07 > 0:04:10from the cheese wire effect of the straps.
0:04:10 > 0:04:13We started trading just nine months ago, and within two weeks,
0:04:13 > 0:04:16we were stocked on the shelves at national retailer Bravissimo.
0:04:16 > 0:04:19Halto is the first commercial solution to this problem
0:04:19 > 0:04:21outside of North America.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24Halto retails at £9.99 for a pack of two
0:04:24 > 0:04:27and it's selling well both on and offline.
0:04:27 > 0:04:29For those Dragons not familiar with the halter ache,
0:04:29 > 0:04:32we have some weighted bikinis for you to try,
0:04:32 > 0:04:34so thank you for listening, please take some samples
0:04:34 > 0:04:36and ask any questions you may have.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38Who'd like to try a bikini first?
0:04:39 > 0:04:42- I'll go ahead. - That's very brave of you!
0:04:43 > 0:04:48A bold pitch from sisters Lucy Cox and Lerin Clare.
0:04:48 > 0:04:50A nice, bright colour to match the suit.
0:04:50 > 0:04:53They're looking for £50,000...
0:04:53 > 0:04:56So, this is the average bra size in the UK.
0:04:56 > 0:04:59..for 15% of their company, making a device
0:04:59 > 0:05:02that spreads the load of a halterneck top.
0:05:02 > 0:05:03That is heavy!
0:05:05 > 0:05:07Welcome to our world!
0:05:07 > 0:05:09I've never felt breasts as heavy as these!
0:05:12 > 0:05:15While Touker Suleyman struggles to get to grips with the lock-up,
0:05:15 > 0:05:19Peter Jones is in search of the product's specific function.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25What does it really do in terms of...?
0:05:25 > 0:05:29Is it just purely a bar of support in that neck area?
0:05:29 > 0:05:33So, if I was to wear a halterneck bikini, it would just hurt,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36so you put it on and you think that's kind of uncomfortable,
0:05:36 > 0:05:39then you're moving around, you're running around after the kids
0:05:39 > 0:05:41and within an hour, it's almost unbearable.
0:05:41 > 0:05:45The next day, I still have bruising on the back of my neck from it.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47It still really hurts!
0:05:47 > 0:05:50So, it is a really big problem,
0:05:50 > 0:05:53but there's just no solution to it, until now.
0:05:53 > 0:05:54You've been going nine months,
0:05:54 > 0:05:56how much have you turned over in nine months?
0:05:56 > 0:06:00This financial year, we have so far turned over 14,000.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02Out of that 14,000, what was your margin?
0:06:02 > 0:06:04The margin that we have at the moment
0:06:04 > 0:06:09when selling to trade at £4.50 is a 68% gross profit margin.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13- So, what do they cost you? - £1.42 per unit.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19The entrepreneurs demonstrate a good grasp of the business basics.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24Now, Tej Lalvani has some first-hand experience of the problem,
0:06:24 > 0:06:27he wants to know where people are buying the product.
0:06:28 > 0:06:29The 14,000 sales that you do,
0:06:29 > 0:06:32how much of that is sold online and at the store?
0:06:32 > 0:06:36So, about 3% of that is via UK e-commerce
0:06:36 > 0:06:39and 2% of that is exporting at the moment,
0:06:39 > 0:06:42so 95% of that at the moment is going to...
0:06:42 > 0:06:44- To retail?- To retailers.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46And you mentioned outside North America earlier,
0:06:46 > 0:06:48so does that mean there are competitors
0:06:48 > 0:06:50doing the same product in America?
0:06:50 > 0:06:52There is one product in North America.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Currently, they're only selling by small independent stores in America
0:06:55 > 0:06:58and their turnover is approximately £140,000.
0:06:58 > 0:07:00- They've been going for around... - Ten years, I think.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02That's not good news.
0:07:03 > 0:07:05It shows the market size is not very big.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07Or their ambition.
0:07:09 > 0:07:13Slow sales of a rival product across the pond
0:07:13 > 0:07:16have given Tej Lalvani cause for concern
0:07:16 > 0:07:17over the size of the opportunity.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22Could Jenny Campbell have a more positive insight
0:07:22 > 0:07:24that the male Dragons have missed?
0:07:25 > 0:07:28I'm sort of sitting here musing and enjoying the boys' conversation.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33But trying to relate it to my own experience.
0:07:33 > 0:07:35I totally recognise the problem you describe.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38But the other angle I was thinking about is for me,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41when I am tanning my back and I lie down,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43- I tend to go "boop"...- Yeah, that's fine.- ..which can be dangerous
0:07:43 > 0:07:46- but you just have to be careful. - Don't get up quickly!
0:07:46 > 0:07:49So, what I'm thinking, can I just do that when this is hanging off it?
0:07:49 > 0:07:52And two, then when I have to very carefully put it back together again
0:07:52 > 0:07:54whilst lying on one's stomach,
0:07:54 > 0:07:56I'm not sure that I can do all of this stuff.
0:07:56 > 0:07:57Actually, it's easier.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00Because by keeping it on, you can pull the strap out
0:08:00 > 0:08:01and pull it over the top.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05And then you can just put that back over your head, and tie it up.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07One of the things that a swimwear manufacturer who
0:08:07 > 0:08:11approached us really liked about the product is the fact that a lot of
0:08:11 > 0:08:13his customers were very concerned
0:08:13 > 0:08:15about wearing this style in case some cheeky
0:08:15 > 0:08:18person just came along did that and their boobs fell out.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22And actually what this does is it does offer some protection from that
0:08:22 > 0:08:25actually happening. And that was a big selling point for them.
0:08:25 > 0:08:26OK.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32Jenny Campbell gets to the bottom of the practicalities of the product.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36Does high-end fashion guru Touker Suleyman
0:08:36 > 0:08:38feel the sisters have invented
0:08:38 > 0:08:40an industry-changing innovation?
0:08:42 > 0:08:44- You girls are great.- Thank you.
0:08:44 > 0:08:45But your product's not.
0:08:47 > 0:08:49This is not going to make you any money.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55Enthusiasm, passion, drive, you've got it.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59But any swimwear manufacturer...
0:09:00 > 0:09:04..could just make those for cents without the packaging
0:09:04 > 0:09:06and include it in their swimsuit.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09I think you are great, the pair you,
0:09:09 > 0:09:13and I just wish you came here with a different product because I don't
0:09:13 > 0:09:18believe that this is, for me anyway, investable.
0:09:18 > 0:09:19I'm sorry, but I'm out.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Too easily copied is the verdict of Touker Suleyman,
0:09:25 > 0:09:29who becomes the first Dragon down.
0:09:29 > 0:09:33Time to see if Deborah Meaden has seen anything to make her want to
0:09:33 > 0:09:35offer financial support to the business.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40You've actually done a very good job on producing this.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42The branding, I think, is lovely.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44I totally get the product.
0:09:44 > 0:09:49So I have no criticism at all, which often then follows with a,
0:09:49 > 0:09:50"So I'm going to make you an offer..."
0:09:53 > 0:09:54Not in this instance,
0:09:54 > 0:10:00because I don't share your view that this is a big market.
0:10:00 > 0:10:05What is going to happen is that if it becomes a really popular product,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08it'll just be commoditised, it will be cheap.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11You won't be getting £9.99,
0:10:11 > 0:10:16and therefore it either becomes cheap as chips and you've got to
0:10:16 > 0:10:19sell hundreds and hundreds of thousands of them, which I don't think you will,
0:10:19 > 0:10:21or it stays expensive and it doesn't,
0:10:21 > 0:10:22you don't sell that many of them.
0:10:24 > 0:10:26I won't be investing in this - I'm out.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33Deborah Meaden fails to see the product's potential for profitability and
0:10:33 > 0:10:36joins Touker Suleyman in withdrawing from the deal.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Will Tej Lalvani's new-found sympathy for the problem be enough
0:10:42 > 0:10:46to convince him to stick his neck out with an offer?
0:10:46 > 0:10:47I'll tell you where I am.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51Obviously my knowledge in this area is very tiny and today I've learned
0:10:51 > 0:10:52a hell of a lot.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56But, no, I mean, obviously the market is tiny and your example of the US
0:10:56 > 0:11:00and US is, people consider, one of the largest markets in the world,
0:11:00 > 0:11:03and if they're doing £140,000 sales,
0:11:03 > 0:11:06it shows the limit of the scope.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11But I wish you the best of luck, but I'm out.
0:11:15 > 0:11:16Lucy, Lerin,
0:11:16 > 0:11:21I think the product and therefore the business opportunity actually is
0:11:21 > 0:11:24not as big as the assets that it's supposed to support.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30So, on that basis, sadly, I'm out.
0:11:30 > 0:11:31OK. Thank you, Peter.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Peter Jones becomes the fourth Dragon to refuse to get behind the product.
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Now only Jenny Campbell remains.
0:11:43 > 0:11:47Can she add some financial muscle to prop up the enterprise?
0:11:48 > 0:11:51You are both a credit to female entrepreneurship, you really are.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55- Thank you.- Not in just the product, the issue you've identified,
0:11:55 > 0:11:57the product you've developed, but...
0:11:59 > 0:12:01..I don't see the market here.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05So I wish you all the best, but I'm out.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08- Thank you very much.- Thank you.
0:12:08 > 0:12:09- Good luck, girls.- Thank you.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11- Thank you so much.- Bye, it was nice to meet you.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13You'll make it eventually.
0:12:13 > 0:12:14We'll be puppeteering.
0:12:17 > 0:12:22Jenny Campbell reluctantly decides not to take the plunge and the sisters
0:12:22 > 0:12:26leave the Den without the £50,000 they were looking for.
0:12:26 > 0:12:29- It is what it is.- Yeah, it's just not part of our journey.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32- No, exactly.- Well, thank God I didn't have to wear this every day,
0:12:32 > 0:12:34- that's all.- I think you looked quite good in it!
0:12:37 > 0:12:40The show went really well, actually, they loved us, didn't they?
0:12:40 > 0:12:42- They did, yeah.- We got a round of applause, you know.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49I think if we'd done all of it, they would have invested, but, you know...
0:12:49 > 0:12:52- I don't know. - We shouldn't leave it up to them really, should we?- No, no.
0:13:03 > 0:13:08Next into the Den, two entrepreneurs wary of one particular Dragon.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12We are worried about Peter because he's really scary.
0:13:17 > 0:13:18I hope he doesn't go for the kill.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22But to survive in the Den,
0:13:22 > 0:13:26they'll also have to face the fire of four other Dragons.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34Hello, Dragons, my name is Michal Takac.
0:13:34 > 0:13:35And I'm Tim Inskip.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37And we're from Carun UK.
0:13:37 > 0:13:43We're asking for an investment of £50,000 for 15% of our business.
0:13:43 > 0:13:47We have the UK rights to the Carun portfolio of products,
0:13:47 > 0:13:51which are all made from Cannabis sativa plant extract.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53Mikhail, would you like to explain your story?
0:13:53 > 0:13:57I'm from the Czech Republic and I was working in the UK when an
0:13:57 > 0:13:59industrial accident changed my life.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02I damaged my arm and I lost several fingers on my hand.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06The amazing NHS surgeons transferred a toe from my foot to my hand.
0:14:06 > 0:14:09During that times, the pain was unbearable
0:14:09 > 0:14:11and the scarring was extensive.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14Visiting friend from the Czech Republic brought me the Carun hemp ointment
0:14:14 > 0:14:16and other hemp products.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19I started using them and the results was incredible.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23So I'd like to share these experience with others and I approached Carun
0:14:23 > 0:14:26Czech Republic and brought these products to the UK.
0:14:26 > 0:14:32So, we have 18 different products, ranging from face cream, shower gel,
0:14:32 > 0:14:34hemp leaf tea and hemp seeds
0:14:34 > 0:14:37and they're all made from Cannabis sativa,
0:14:37 > 0:14:42commonly known as hemp. We are vegan, organic and totally legal,
0:14:42 > 0:14:46as the products contain none of the psychoactive elements found in
0:14:46 > 0:14:49cannabis, but they're very high in the other elements known as
0:14:49 > 0:14:52cannabinoids, which are currently proven be beneficial in treating
0:14:52 > 0:14:55many different complaints.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58We're passionate about Cannabis sativa,
0:14:58 > 0:15:05but we are plainly retail amateurs and we need the help of a Dragon to
0:15:05 > 0:15:10guide us, to manage our growth and fulfil our full potential.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Thank you very much for your attention and we have some samples which we'd like to show.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16Would it be possible that we have the samples at the end?
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Because I'm slightly worried if I have to take any of the samples,
0:15:19 > 0:15:22I might make a wrong investment decision!
0:15:22 > 0:15:23No, no.
0:15:23 > 0:15:26They have no psychotropic effect whatsoever.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31Now they've reassured the Dragons the products aren't mind-altering,
0:15:31 > 0:15:35Tim Inskip and Michal Takac can get on with the business
0:15:35 > 0:15:37of handing them out.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39- Thank you.- There you go, there's a selection of stuff in there.
0:15:39 > 0:15:44They're looking for £50,000 for 15% of their business,
0:15:44 > 0:15:47selling cosmetics made with a cannabis extract.
0:15:48 > 0:15:50But Peter Jones is still confused
0:15:50 > 0:15:53about the legalities of the operation.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57How can you convince me that this isn't a potential front
0:15:57 > 0:15:59for a big drugs ring?
0:15:59 > 0:16:01We have EU certification.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04All EU certification, all the farmers are certified.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08There is a very strict law overseeing these farmers.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10What's stopping the company in Czech Republic,
0:16:10 > 0:16:15the temptation to realise that they make a small amount of money on this
0:16:15 > 0:16:17but the real business behind the scenes is cannabis?
0:16:17 > 0:16:19They're growing a different plant entirely,
0:16:19 > 0:16:21and it's illegal to grow different plants.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24What would make it restricted is the level of THC,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27which is the psychoactive component of the hemp plant,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30which it doesn't have. So essentially, it's legal,
0:16:30 > 0:16:31it's not a restricted substance.
0:16:31 > 0:16:34OK, so I'm not going to be an investor in some sort of illegal drugs ring?
0:16:34 > 0:16:37No, absolutely not, Peter. We can assure you about that.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39And you've given three different creams here.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42- One's a balm.- Yes, a balm.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45And an ointment...
0:16:45 > 0:16:47Is it all the same product?
0:16:47 > 0:16:49- No.- OK.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52Is this a cosmetic or is it a medicine?
0:16:52 > 0:16:54At the moment, we market it as the cosmetics,
0:16:54 > 0:16:59we don't make the claims it helps people and we sell it as cosmetics.
0:16:59 > 0:17:00Isn't that a major problem,
0:17:00 > 0:17:03because A, you can't tell anyone what the product does,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06you just said it's an all-purpose hemp ointment.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09I don't know if it's to moisturise and make my skin glow,
0:17:09 > 0:17:11I don't know if it's to reduce pain for, you know,
0:17:11 > 0:17:13joint pain or injury that I've got.
0:17:13 > 0:17:18This does have medical device certification in the EU, in Czech Republic.
0:17:18 > 0:17:19They have run the trials.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21We are talking specifically about this product
0:17:21 > 0:17:23to get a medical device in the UK.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26The point is that the evidence is that it does help in a very,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30very wide range of different complaints, problems,
0:17:30 > 0:17:33but we cannot say that we are going to cure any of those...
0:17:33 > 0:17:36I know you definitely can't say that, you don't have a medicines license to say that,
0:17:36 > 0:17:40but what I'm saying is that you don't know what the product's for.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43Trouble for the entrepreneurs,
0:17:43 > 0:17:47as their inability to claim their products have health benefits gets
0:17:47 > 0:17:49under the skin of Tej Lalvani.
0:17:50 > 0:17:54Now Peter Jones wants to establish the basis of the duo's relationship
0:17:54 > 0:17:56with the manufacturer.
0:17:57 > 0:17:59Who owns the company Carun?
0:17:59 > 0:18:00My friends in the Czech Republic.
0:18:00 > 0:18:01- Your friends?- Yes.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03How much of the company do you own?
0:18:03 > 0:18:04None.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06None?
0:18:06 > 0:18:08- The Czech Republic, nothing. - Nothing?
0:18:08 > 0:18:10- No.- Basically,
0:18:10 > 0:18:13our relationship is that Michal developed some of the products in
0:18:13 > 0:18:15the Czech Republic, brought them over to the UK.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18And tell me, what's your deal with this company?
0:18:18 > 0:18:19They are my close friends.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21So you've got to buy from them?
0:18:21 > 0:18:23- Yes.- Is there a minimum quantity you have to buy?
0:18:23 > 0:18:26- No.- And your licence with them, this lasts for how long?
0:18:27 > 0:18:29Until 2023, at the moment.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31And can they terminate your contract at any time?
0:18:31 > 0:18:33- No.- Can I look at that agreement?
0:18:33 > 0:18:34Yes, yes.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39While Deborah Meaden gets to grips with the paperwork on that Czech
0:18:39 > 0:18:41distribution deal,
0:18:41 > 0:18:45Jenny Campbell has some questions on the UK side of the setup.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50Tim, what's your role in this business, are you an equal shareholder?
0:18:50 > 0:18:52No, I'm a minor shareholder at the moment.
0:18:52 > 0:18:53The shareholding's split how?
0:18:53 > 0:18:55I only have 10%.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57Yep. So 90 and ten?
0:18:57 > 0:19:01I've got a 60% of the company and we've got another minor shareholders
0:19:01 > 0:19:03which helped at the beginning, with the start of the company.
0:19:03 > 0:19:05And how much have they put in to help you from the beginning?
0:19:05 > 0:19:07It was no more than 20,000 altogether.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09I invested my own,
0:19:09 > 0:19:12over, nearly 200,000 in the business.
0:19:13 > 0:19:14£200,000?
0:19:14 > 0:19:16Wow.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19And what've you, where has that been spent?
0:19:19 > 0:19:22Unwisely, I did a lot of mistakes at the beginning.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26I hired, I rented a warehouse, 10,500 square feet.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28- How much?- Big.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Offices and hired people because I did believe,
0:19:31 > 0:19:34because I watching the Dragons' Den, I want to do big.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37- Oh, it's our fault, then? - No, not yours, Peter's.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39Oh, it's Peter's fault, specifically!
0:19:40 > 0:19:42- I was watching it for studies... - Normally, people do that...
0:19:42 > 0:19:46Sorry. Hang on a minute, hang on a minute, this is my time, thank you.
0:19:46 > 0:19:47So, it's... Peter's at fault here.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49- No, it's not, absolutely.- So, he's not your favourite Dragon?
0:19:49 > 0:19:50That's good to hear.
0:19:51 > 0:19:53So, you made some mistakes at the beginning.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56- Absolutely.- So, how much would you write off of the 200,000 as a mistake?
0:19:58 > 0:20:00Er, 100,000 for sure.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07The admission of a big cash spend with not much to show for it hasn't
0:20:07 > 0:20:11gone down well with former banker Jenny Campbell.
0:20:11 > 0:20:15And it looks like Deborah Meaden's now up to speed with that deal with
0:20:15 > 0:20:18the entrepreneurs' parent company in the Czech Republic.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25Right now, you have absolutely no negotiating tools
0:20:25 > 0:20:26in here whatsoever.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32On June the 3rd 2023, if you've done a cracking job,
0:20:32 > 0:20:33you hand this business back to these guys.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38There is nothing in here that gives you an automatic right of renewal.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41From my point of view, they will be only against themselves,
0:20:41 > 0:20:43how they can do it without us after years?
0:20:43 > 0:20:45Because you've built their brand.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48They've got a really, really valuable asset over here.
0:20:48 > 0:20:49Why on Earth would they renew?
0:20:49 > 0:20:51- Mm-hm.- Job done.
0:20:52 > 0:20:53Market penetrated.
0:20:53 > 0:20:54Mm.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58I'm not spending my time building somebody else's brand for them.
0:21:00 > 0:21:02I won't be investing. I'm out.
0:21:04 > 0:21:07A lack of control over the future of the business
0:21:07 > 0:21:09has spooked Deborah Meaden.
0:21:09 > 0:21:14And it's left Touker Suleyman wondering how an investor would get their money back.
0:21:15 > 0:21:20My question mark here is the fact that you don't own the brand,
0:21:20 > 0:21:25it's a distribution, and there could be no exit.
0:21:26 > 0:21:31Yes, well, we believe at the moment the exit is to sell back to Carun Czech.
0:21:31 > 0:21:32Have you got an agreement to that?
0:21:32 > 0:21:34We are negotiating that agreement at the moment.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37- But you haven't got the agreement? - No.- No.
0:21:38 > 0:21:39I'm not doubting the product.
0:21:40 > 0:21:41Amazing product, as you say.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45But you don't own the brand.
0:21:45 > 0:21:47Once you've created the brand, the retailers want the brand,
0:21:47 > 0:21:49they don't care about you.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53I do wish you all the best because you're going to
0:21:53 > 0:21:54make your friend rich.
0:21:57 > 0:21:58- I'm out.- Thank you.
0:21:58 > 0:22:00OK, thank you.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05Touker Suleyman joins Deborah Meaden in exiting over that controversial
0:22:05 > 0:22:07distribution contract.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12And Tej Lalvani has some words of wisdom over the pair's plans to
0:22:12 > 0:22:14back up the potential benefits of the product.
0:22:17 > 0:22:19For products like this,
0:22:19 > 0:22:23the most important thing is to show the effectiveness that it works.
0:22:23 > 0:22:27You'll need to do clinical trials in pretty much every region or territory
0:22:27 > 0:22:29that you launch them, because they'll all have different licensing
0:22:29 > 0:22:33agencies. And the cost of doing a clinical trial,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36do you know how much that costs in the UK to do a clinical trial like this?
0:22:36 > 0:22:37About 120,000.
0:22:37 > 0:22:38Exactly.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42To get the licence will cost you a hell of a lot more.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47You're going to have to raise half a million pounds.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48- I'm out.- OK. Thank you.
0:22:48 > 0:22:49OK, thank you.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53Michal, Tim,
0:22:53 > 0:22:56I'm concerned about the way that you've gone about
0:22:56 > 0:22:57setting this business up,
0:22:57 > 0:23:01Michal, particularly you, where,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04having friendships in your home country is fantastic...
0:23:06 > 0:23:08..but what you should have done was,
0:23:08 > 0:23:13if you had such a huge amount of money, £200,000 to invest,
0:23:13 > 0:23:18you should have found a way to invest in the holding company in the Czech Republic.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20I could have been potentially interested, actually,
0:23:20 > 0:23:22in something like this.
0:23:23 > 0:23:28But, ultimately, you've brought a distribution-agency-style deal that
0:23:28 > 0:23:30I think isn't good enough.
0:23:31 > 0:23:32So, I'm out.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34OK, thank you.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39Peter Jones' departure leaves Jenny Campbell
0:23:39 > 0:23:41as the last Dragon standing.
0:23:41 > 0:23:45Is she able to see the potential for profit in a business her fellow
0:23:45 > 0:23:47millionaires have shunned?
0:23:49 > 0:23:52So, I mean, this is a bit of a mess, isn't it?
0:23:52 > 0:23:55From where we're standing, I'm sure you can see that.
0:23:55 > 0:23:58You come into the Den with an exclusive exclusivity agreement that
0:23:58 > 0:24:03you're halfway through. And all sorts of issues on extending or minimum purchase levels.
0:24:03 > 0:24:08How confident are you that you can renegotiate that exclusivity
0:24:08 > 0:24:10- agreement?- 100% confident.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12- 100% confident? - Yes.
0:24:14 > 0:24:16OK. So, I think this is complex.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22But I can see the belief in your eyes, Michal,
0:24:22 > 0:24:25and certainly you've come on board, Tim, with the same belief.
0:24:28 > 0:24:29But I will make you an offer.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35So, I will offer you all of the money.
0:24:38 > 0:24:43But, because of the risk factors, multiple risk factors in this deal...
0:24:44 > 0:24:47..I would want 25% of your business.
0:24:49 > 0:24:51OK. Thank you very much for your offer.
0:24:51 > 0:24:53- Can we have a little discussion? - Please, go and talk to the wall.
0:24:55 > 0:24:59An 11th-hour change of fortune as Jenny Campbell
0:24:59 > 0:25:01backs her gut instinct with an offer.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05Shall we tell them it's straightforward consequently...
0:25:05 > 0:25:07But, at 10% more than the entrepreneurs were offering,
0:25:07 > 0:25:09they have a tricky decision on their hands.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14Thank you very much for your offer.
0:25:18 > 0:25:19We would like to accept the offer.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21- Thank you very much.- Marvellous.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24- Well done.- Thank you.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27- Thank you very much.- You're welcome. I look forward to it. - Thank you very much.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29Good luck, guys.
0:25:30 > 0:25:34The cosmetic duo have given up a quarter of the company but leave
0:25:34 > 0:25:36the Den with a £50,000 investment.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44I thought we'd lost it.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47I did say you shouldn't use their product before making an offer.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52I can't wait till we have our first meeting.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55Yes, yeah. We'd like to meet Jenny as soon as possible.
0:25:55 > 0:25:58To share our excitement and our visions.
0:25:58 > 0:26:00- And maybe open a bottle of champagne.- Yeah.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15So far, the entrepreneurs have tried everything to impress the Dragons.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21And £50,000 has already been invested.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23You're welcome.
0:26:23 > 0:26:27But, as the puppet masters continue to pull all the strings...
0:26:27 > 0:26:30You've made it impossible to invest.
0:26:30 > 0:26:32That feels like spray and pray to me,
0:26:32 > 0:26:34and you need to pray at the moment.
0:26:34 > 0:26:39..there's still time before the final curtain to strike a deal.
0:26:39 > 0:26:41I think you've got a chance here.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44What I will do is make you an offer.
0:26:49 > 0:26:51Next into the Den,
0:26:51 > 0:26:54a couple of entrepreneurs with a revolutionary idea
0:26:54 > 0:26:56to mix up English and foreign languages,
0:26:56 > 0:27:00to help the next generation communicate with the rest of Europe.
0:27:00 > 0:27:03But they've left it a little bit late to do their homework.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09- Touker.- Jenny.- Jenny.
0:27:09 > 0:27:11- Jenny.- Jenny. Deborah.
0:27:11 > 0:27:13- Tej.- Peter.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18But, now, it's time to face the Dragons in the flesh.
0:27:24 > 0:27:27And I'm not entirely sure what he said but I echo that sentiment.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37Hi. My name is Alex Somervell and this is my co-founder Jonny Pryn.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40Together, we're the founders of One Third Stories.
0:27:40 > 0:27:47We're here today looking for £60,000 of investment in return for 7.5% equity in the company.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50Like millions of children across the UK,
0:27:50 > 0:27:53I absolutely hated learning another language.
0:27:53 > 0:27:57That's why we started writing stories that start in English
0:27:57 > 0:28:00and end in a different language.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03We do this through our clockwork methodology that
0:28:03 > 0:28:07allows us to gradually introduce words in the foreign language into
0:28:07 > 0:28:09an easy-to-understand context.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11So, an example for Spanish might be,
0:28:11 > 0:28:14Alex and Johnny walked into the den of five scary,
0:28:14 > 0:28:16fire-breathing dragones.
0:28:16 > 0:28:20- Ha-ha.- The meaning is instantly understandable,
0:28:20 > 0:28:24and our stories use this methodology to introduce individual words to
0:28:24 > 0:28:25build into phrases,
0:28:25 > 0:28:29sentences and eventually entire pages in the foreign language.
0:28:29 > 0:28:32We created our first set of books off the back of a successful
0:28:32 > 0:28:33crowdfunding campaign.
0:28:33 > 0:28:37Since then, we've partnered with the Goethe Institute and the Spanish
0:28:37 > 0:28:39Embassy, as well as receiving investment
0:28:39 > 0:28:40from the University of Nottingham.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43With their support, we launched a subscription box service.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47We've already generated over £19,000 in the last four months.
0:28:47 > 0:28:51We believe that One Third Stories represents a fantastic investment
0:28:51 > 0:28:54opportunity. You can help to give the gift of languages to kids
0:28:54 > 0:28:58everywhere. And help to bring children and their parents together
0:28:58 > 0:29:00over a good old-fashioned storybook.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02We hope you've enjoyed the pitch.
0:29:02 > 0:29:04We'll grab some books and we'll take any questions.
0:29:07 > 0:29:11An educated offering from Alex Somervell and Jonny Pryn.
0:29:11 > 0:29:16They are looking for £60,000 for 7.5% of their children's books
0:29:16 > 0:29:21that drop foreign languages into stories written in English.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23Thank you.
0:29:23 > 0:29:26Peter Jones is wondering who the tales are targeted at.
0:29:28 > 0:29:32Are these books for parents to read to their children?
0:29:32 > 0:29:34So, the way that we've design the books are so that they can be used
0:29:34 > 0:29:38individually by the children or in tandem with a parent or teacher that
0:29:38 > 0:29:41doesn't actually speak the foreign language.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43But I get to words like...
0:29:43 > 0:29:45..leon, gato.
0:29:45 > 0:29:46Mm-hm?
0:29:46 > 0:29:47What's that?
0:29:47 > 0:29:49So, that's lion and cat.
0:29:49 > 0:29:52How do I know that I've pronounced it correctly because I obviously haven't.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54One of the first things we do is that,
0:29:54 > 0:29:56whenever you order a book or a subscription,
0:29:56 > 0:29:58even before it arrives, we send out an audio book.
0:29:59 > 0:30:00So, I'm the subscriber.
0:30:00 > 0:30:03- Yes.- Tell me my journey, what do I do?
0:30:03 > 0:30:05OK. You'll sign up, you'll get an e-mail.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07And in that e-mail is the audio book.
0:30:07 > 0:30:09A few days after that, your book arrives.
0:30:09 > 0:30:11Then there's an activity book.
0:30:11 > 0:30:13- And this is all in the same pack. - All in the same pack.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15All of these things are themed around the story.
0:30:15 > 0:30:17OK. So, talk me through your subscription models?
0:30:17 > 0:30:19On a monthly rolling basis,
0:30:19 > 0:30:22you'll be paying £14.99 plus postage and packaging,
0:30:22 > 0:30:23which is 2.95.
0:30:23 > 0:30:28If you sign up for three months, then you'll pay 13.99 per month.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32And with six months, you'll pay 12.49.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34And what are your costs associated to that?
0:30:34 > 0:30:37The cost at the moment is £5 and it's something that we're printing
0:30:37 > 0:30:40right here in the UK. Once we move abroad,
0:30:40 > 0:30:43whether it's to Malta or Turkey or China,
0:30:43 > 0:30:45that will go down to under £1 in total
0:30:45 > 0:30:49once we get to around 10,000 boxes going out each month.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54Plans to cut costs by printing overseas
0:30:54 > 0:30:56are revealed by the entrepreneurs.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01But dad-of-five Peter Jones wanted to know how many who sign up for
0:31:01 > 0:31:05the books come back for more once they've tried them.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09So, how many customers have you got on a one-month subscription?
0:31:09 > 0:31:11- Roughly around 60. - And how many repeated?
0:31:11 > 0:31:14Um, all but 15.
0:31:14 > 0:31:16Right, so you have 45 customers?
0:31:16 > 0:31:19- Yes.- Why did those people in the first month, why did they leave you?
0:31:19 > 0:31:23So, the vast majority of people were from their kids being of a too young
0:31:23 > 0:31:26age group and actually saying it's not quite age appropriate at this
0:31:26 > 0:31:29stage. So, it was more around the messaging on the site maybe.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32OK. And how are you going to make your messaging clearer?
0:31:32 > 0:31:35At the moment, we're experimenting a lot on the website,
0:31:35 > 0:31:37looking at the ads and the way those are messaged.
0:31:37 > 0:31:40So far, we've tried out a variety of different images and messages that
0:31:40 > 0:31:43- we're using to advertise. - And what was the result?
0:31:43 > 0:31:46To be honest, at the moment, I think we're still finding the exact result.
0:31:46 > 0:31:49We have definitely improved our kind of conversion funnel.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51What's the conversion funnel from the web?
0:31:51 > 0:31:53- At the moment?- Yes.- It's just under a percentage,
0:31:53 > 0:31:55so it's something we're not happy with.
0:31:55 > 0:31:58- So, you're under 1% on conversion? - Yep.- Yeah.- Wow.
0:31:58 > 0:31:59That is awful, guys.
0:32:01 > 0:32:03I could do nothing on the web,
0:32:03 > 0:32:07literally nothing and get 1% traction.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10- I think...- I could just put a tiny little ad and do nothing and I'll
0:32:10 > 0:32:11have a conversion of 1%.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17Failure to attract and keep a big customer base
0:32:17 > 0:32:20proves a problem for Peter Jones.
0:32:20 > 0:32:23And Touker Suleyman wants to know how they've managed to bankroll
0:32:23 > 0:32:26- the business so far. - Alex and Johnny.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29- Yes.- So, you've had some funding already.
0:32:29 > 0:32:33Um, so, we had £40,000 in revenue from the crowdfunding campaign.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36- Yes.- We've received £30,000 from Nottingham University.
0:32:36 > 0:32:38We also got a £10,000 loan.
0:32:38 > 0:32:42So, in total, you've raised 140?
0:32:42 > 0:32:46Um. It's a bit more, it's probably closer to 200,000 now...
0:32:46 > 0:32:48- OK.- ..with the crowdfunding.
0:32:48 > 0:32:49OK, £200,000.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51- Yep.- Yes.- How much have you got left?
0:32:52 > 0:32:54We've got £150,000 in the bank at the moment.
0:32:54 > 0:32:55Yep.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59You've got 150,000 in the bank?
0:32:59 > 0:33:01- Yes.- Yes.- Um.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05- So why are you here?- We're here because having a Dragon on board
0:33:05 > 0:33:07just gives us, A, a lot more credibility,
0:33:07 > 0:33:10it gives us a superstar investor to have in the business.
0:33:10 > 0:33:14And it also just opens up so many more doors in terms of contacts, PR.
0:33:14 > 0:33:16Guys.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18You've got 150,000 in the bank.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20You could do that without a Dragon.
0:33:20 > 0:33:25Do you honestly believe that a Dragon who is going to add value to
0:33:25 > 0:33:28your business and advise you and guide you and open doors for you is
0:33:28 > 0:33:31going to invest 60,000 for 7.5%?
0:33:31 > 0:33:35I think there's definitely a huge amount of value from the kind of
0:33:35 > 0:33:36investor sitting in this room.
0:33:39 > 0:33:43OK. So, what are you offering a Dragon?
0:33:43 > 0:33:47We would be offering you to invest £60,000 and also we'd like to offer
0:33:47 > 0:33:49you advisory shares.
0:33:50 > 0:33:52What's an advisory share?
0:33:52 > 0:33:56So, it means that basically we would take you on board and you would be a
0:33:56 > 0:34:00member of the team and dedicate a couple of hours a month
0:34:00 > 0:34:01to advising us,
0:34:01 > 0:34:03and we would give you shares in return for that.
0:34:05 > 0:34:09If you think for one second I'm going to be signing up to working for you,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12that's like a job. People get an awful lot more than that at some times in
0:34:12 > 0:34:16my life, and at other times they're getting on and carrying on and running their businesses.
0:34:16 > 0:34:18So, that really doesn't appeal.
0:34:22 > 0:34:23I'm out.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30Deborah Meaden refuses to put her name on the business's rota and
0:34:30 > 0:34:32exits the deal.
0:34:32 > 0:34:35But is Jenny Campbell prepared to find the time
0:34:35 > 0:34:36to help the entrepreneurs
0:34:36 > 0:34:39nurture their fledgling business?
0:34:39 > 0:34:41Your enthusiasm is wonderful.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44And I don't hear you talking about, you know,
0:34:44 > 0:34:48we want to drive a business that will deliver this, X sales, Y profits,
0:34:48 > 0:34:50and make a difference.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52You started the other way around.
0:34:52 > 0:34:54We want kids to learn languages.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56Yes, but we all want to do that.
0:34:56 > 0:35:00You need to take a pause now and look at where you are and say,
0:35:00 > 0:35:02this is not working yet.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05Before you go out with more languages and different marketing strategies.
0:35:05 > 0:35:07Because that feels like spray and pray to me,
0:35:07 > 0:35:12and you need to pray at the moment and just take a step back and think
0:35:12 > 0:35:16about where you can start monetising this business and making it
0:35:16 > 0:35:18interesting for an investor.
0:35:18 > 0:35:21I think, from our perspective, anyway,
0:35:21 > 0:35:25we see what similar subscription boxes for just activities are doing
0:35:25 > 0:35:28- in the market.- We all see subscription boxes and we all get excited about it.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31So, it feels like you're jumping on the bandwagon a little bit.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33We're back to this spray and pray marketing.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36So, for that reason, it's not an investment for me.
0:35:36 > 0:35:37- I'm out.- Thank you.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44Guys. I mean, you've definitely proven that you can raise money.
0:35:48 > 0:35:54The problem is, you've made it impossible to invest.
0:35:54 > 0:35:56The valuation is definitely out.
0:35:57 > 0:36:01And you want to give me advisory shares.
0:36:01 > 0:36:02If I wanted advisory shares,
0:36:02 > 0:36:05I could go to 100 companies without investing.
0:36:05 > 0:36:06There's no carrot there.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09I'm not going to be there for the rest of your journey.
0:36:10 > 0:36:11I'm out.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18No fairy-tale ending from Touker Suleyman,
0:36:18 > 0:36:22who becomes the third Dragon the entrepreneurs fail to tame.
0:36:23 > 0:36:26And now their stories are out of the hat,
0:36:26 > 0:36:29Tej Lalvani has some concerns of a potential copycat.
0:36:31 > 0:36:36What if somebody else comes up with a similar book in terms of teaching
0:36:36 > 0:36:41- languages?- The main thing for us is really around not divulging too much
0:36:41 > 0:36:42around what we're actually doing,
0:36:42 > 0:36:46and really assemble a team of experts around language learning that no-one
0:36:46 > 0:36:51- else can do.- So, what you're saying, is that, because it's easily copyable,
0:36:51 > 0:36:54that you don't want to market it and let people know about it?
0:36:54 > 0:36:55Not that we don't want to market it,
0:36:55 > 0:36:58but that we don't want to kind of let on too much about
0:36:58 > 0:37:01the actual process behind the scenes.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04I can't agree with that model because, if you want something to do
0:37:04 > 0:37:07well, you've got to let everyone know about it, you've got to advertise it,
0:37:07 > 0:37:09you've got to create the awareness.
0:37:11 > 0:37:13I'm not going to be investing today.
0:37:13 > 0:37:14I'm out.
0:37:17 > 0:37:22Tej Lalvani becomes the fourth Dragon to say, "Non, merci,"
0:37:22 > 0:37:26leaving the final chapter of the entrepreneurs' journey into the Den
0:37:26 > 0:37:30in the hands of a previously scathing Peter Jones.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35Guys, I got to the halfway line here,
0:37:35 > 0:37:38and I was struggling with this.
0:37:39 > 0:37:41Um, and I had to go back and re-read it.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45And then I realised somebody that's partially dyslexic is not going to
0:37:45 > 0:37:49actually do very well anyway in trying to get through this book.
0:37:49 > 0:37:50But...
0:37:53 > 0:37:55..I think you've got a chance here.
0:37:57 > 0:37:58I think that you have...
0:38:00 > 0:38:02..an opportunity, with the passion that you have...
0:38:03 > 0:38:05..to do something quite good.
0:38:05 > 0:38:08Um, and it is a real small seed of a chance.
0:38:12 > 0:38:15But you have made it very difficult because you very clearly preset
0:38:15 > 0:38:17a valuation.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20Um, but I'm going to make it really difficult to you, now.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27I'm going to offer you all of the money...
0:38:30 > 0:38:32..but I want 20% of the business.
0:38:34 > 0:38:35HE SIGHS
0:38:35 > 0:38:37That was a big sigh!
0:38:37 > 0:38:42That's an interesting offer, Peter, and quite unexpected!
0:38:43 > 0:38:45Could we have a moment to have a chat?
0:38:45 > 0:38:47Absolutely. Yes.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55A twist in the tale as Peter Jones comes up with a surprise offer.
0:38:55 > 0:39:00- Phew.- It would be great to have him on board.
0:39:00 > 0:39:03- He was the Dragon we were talking about.- Exactly.
0:39:03 > 0:39:08He's putting up the whole £60,000 but wants 20% of the company,
0:39:08 > 0:39:13almost three times what the entrepreneurs wanted to part with.
0:39:16 > 0:39:17Thank you for your offer, Peter.
0:39:19 > 0:39:20I think
0:39:20 > 0:39:24we're aware that we're going to need to raise again and quite possibly
0:39:24 > 0:39:28again after that, and I don't think we can afford to give away a further
0:39:28 > 0:39:3120% of equity in our business at this stage.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37- Is...?- Is there any room for movement at all?
0:39:39 > 0:39:41I think you're about to make a very big mistake.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49Because any future fundraise, if I want to maintain my 20%,
0:39:49 > 0:39:52you've already got somebody that can afford to put the money in.
0:39:53 > 0:39:55So you're not going to have to dilute.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05So I think, guys, you need to be a little bit less greedy and start
0:40:05 > 0:40:07sharing. That's my feeling.
0:40:07 > 0:40:08It's naive, not greedy.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11It is, guys, honestly.
0:40:11 > 0:40:13- Well...- But you've got to make that decision for yourself.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22Well, Peter, it is a fantastic offer.
0:40:23 > 0:40:26But I think, for us, we really believe in this,
0:40:26 > 0:40:29we believe we're going to need more money down the road to do it as well,
0:40:29 > 0:40:33and we can't accept an offer for 20% equity.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35But thank you for it, it's very encouraging for us.
0:40:42 > 0:40:43What would you accept?
0:40:44 > 0:40:45I think, to be honest,
0:40:45 > 0:40:49we'd be hard pressed to go anywhere above the kind of offer and we
0:40:49 > 0:40:50came in with.
0:40:51 > 0:40:53I think it's way too much.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56I think it's not... We don't see it as greedy from our behalf,
0:40:56 > 0:40:59- I think we know that we're going to...- Your way too much is...
0:40:59 > 0:41:01..is...stupid.
0:41:05 > 0:41:09Your level of negotiation is 7.5% or nothing.
0:41:09 > 0:41:12I've offered you 20, and you're not even going to come back.
0:41:12 > 0:41:13Really?
0:41:16 > 0:41:18We really think that it's a fair valuation.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23So the answer's no, then?
0:41:25 > 0:41:26The answer's no, with regret.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32Well, then, it's arrivederci, ich bin aus.
0:41:32 > 0:41:33- Grazie.- Thank you.
0:41:33 > 0:41:35- Adios, amigos.- Thank you very much. - Thank you.
0:41:37 > 0:41:39One for the books,
0:41:39 > 0:41:43as the entrepreneurs refuse to budge on their equity stake.
0:41:43 > 0:41:45They leave the Den empty-handed.
0:41:46 > 0:41:4820% is too high.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51- Yeah.- 20% is too high, like, that was wrong.
0:41:51 > 0:41:52Yeah, we couldn't take that.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58- Ich kann nicht verstand.- The next book is The Great Big Mistake.
0:42:12 > 0:42:14Would you like to be tempted?
0:42:14 > 0:42:15Oh, absolutely.
0:42:16 > 0:42:17Over the years,
0:42:17 > 0:42:20entrepreneurs have entered the Den with
0:42:20 > 0:42:23some interesting health food offerings.
0:42:23 > 0:42:25..the world's healthiest dairy ice cream.
0:42:25 > 0:42:30Seaweed-flavoured food is set to be the next big superfood trend.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33But persuading the Dragons their products are investable...
0:42:33 > 0:42:36Isn't this already a crowded marketplace?
0:42:36 > 0:42:38You've chosen a very difficult sector.
0:42:38 > 0:42:40..can be a very tough nut to crack.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44Nobody buys a snack that does that.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48That aftertaste, it's a complete deal-breaker for me.
0:42:48 > 0:42:50It's like a weeny, weeny, weeny packet of crisps.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56Vile.
0:42:56 > 0:43:00Now, a young entrepreneur who believes he's got the answer to help
0:43:00 > 0:43:03- improve our wellbeing.- It's an idea I've had for a long time.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06I've been watching the market and the way it's moved and changed over
0:43:06 > 0:43:07the last few years.
0:43:08 > 0:43:12I felt like it was time that I needed to try and make a difference in the sector.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21Hello, Dragons. My name's James Dawson
0:43:21 > 0:43:24and I'm the founder of T Plus Drinks.
0:43:24 > 0:43:27T Plus is a new generation of vitamin super tea,
0:43:27 > 0:43:31made by blending together functional herbs with green tea,
0:43:31 > 0:43:33natural fruit flavours and 50% RDA
0:43:33 > 0:43:36in nine daily essential vitamins in every bag.
0:43:36 > 0:43:41I'm here today to seek £75,000 funding in return for
0:43:41 > 0:43:4310% equity in my company.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46165 million cups of tea are drunk every day in the UK.
0:43:46 > 0:43:50And one in three UK adults regularly takes some form of vitamin supplement.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53T Plus has been designed to bridge that gap and offer something new,
0:43:53 > 0:43:55convenient and healthy into the market.
0:43:55 > 0:43:56Since launching T Plus,
0:43:56 > 0:43:59we've grown to over 900 retail listings
0:43:59 > 0:44:01through the independent sector,
0:44:01 > 0:44:04as well as retailers such as Whole Foods, Ocado,
0:44:04 > 0:44:06and most recently Holland & Barrett,
0:44:06 > 0:44:08where we've won a nationwide listing.
0:44:08 > 0:44:10We're now ready to move on to the next level
0:44:10 > 0:44:11and scale the business up,
0:44:11 > 0:44:14and we would love to a Dragon along for that part of the journey with us.
0:44:14 > 0:44:16So, thank you for listening.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18I look forward to receiving your questions,
0:44:18 > 0:44:20but first I would love for you to try some T Plus.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26Brewing up a business making herbal teas with vitamins...
0:44:26 > 0:44:28Just grab one of the trays.
0:44:29 > 0:44:34..is James Dawson, who's looking for £75,000 for 10% of his company.
0:44:36 > 0:44:39Now all the Dragons are suitably refreshed,
0:44:39 > 0:44:44mineral mogul Tej Lalvani seems the natural person to start things off.
0:44:44 > 0:44:48Hi, James. I guess you know a bit about my business.
0:44:48 > 0:44:49- Yes.- Vitamins, supplements.
0:44:49 > 0:44:54- Yes.- See, this categorisation of teas has been done
0:44:54 > 0:44:56years and years ago.
0:44:56 > 0:44:57Detox, boost, etc.
0:44:57 > 0:44:58Sure, but never with vitamins.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01I agree, but that doesn't come across to me.
0:45:01 > 0:45:03Because when I see that, it looks like again you've got another tea
0:45:03 > 0:45:07company coming out with detox tea, with immune tea.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10How do I know it's a vitamin-based product?
0:45:10 > 0:45:13So it's through what we're trying to do on our marketing.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17- So it's now...- The biggest marketing has to be your product packaging.
0:45:17 > 0:45:18That's part of it, yeah.
0:45:18 > 0:45:20You can do all the marketing that you want,
0:45:20 > 0:45:23but you're selling this on shelf, it's just going to come across like a normal herbal tea.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26And the other thing that concerns me is that you've
0:45:26 > 0:45:29just gone with B and C vitamins, and that really, I think, isn't right.
0:45:29 > 0:45:32Anyone that wants more, anyone that is looking for D, A, K,
0:45:32 > 0:45:35whatever other vitamins,
0:45:35 > 0:45:38then they will stay in the vitamin supplement market.
0:45:38 > 0:45:41I think it's quite confusing. Unless you have a product which has got all
0:45:41 > 0:45:43the nutrients in there that covers it...
0:45:43 > 0:45:46But it also provides antioxidants for people looking for a green tea,
0:45:46 > 0:45:49- herbs, looking for that.- You haven't got all the antioxidants.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51You've just got vitamin C, really.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53It's got B and C vitamins, yeah.
0:45:53 > 0:45:55And we can't be the same as a supplement,
0:45:55 > 0:45:57because it has to be water-soluble.
0:45:58 > 0:46:02A product range lacking the full spectrum of vitamins
0:46:02 > 0:46:05isn't quite hitting the spot for Tej Lalvani.
0:46:06 > 0:46:10But reluctant convert to the herbal tea revolution, Deborah Meaden,
0:46:10 > 0:46:13wants to know how this one compares to the competition.
0:46:15 > 0:46:19James, for healthy reasons, I do drink herbal teas,
0:46:19 > 0:46:20but I don't really like them.
0:46:20 > 0:46:22You know, but they do make me feel worthy,
0:46:22 > 0:46:23and they make me feel better.
0:46:23 > 0:46:26But that has actually got quite a nice taste.
0:46:26 > 0:46:28So, can we just look at the business side of things?
0:46:28 > 0:46:33First of all, price on 15 bags compared to your nearest competitor.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35Yeah. So our RRP is 3.69.
0:46:35 > 0:46:40We've priced ourself at a slightly premium market, but
0:46:40 > 0:46:44we are below the top-priced tea, which is normally £4.50 up,
0:46:44 > 0:46:47but we are also above certain other herbal teas,
0:46:47 > 0:46:48that are around £2.30.
0:46:48 > 0:46:50So last question from me...
0:46:50 > 0:46:54You've been going for two years, how have you done to date financially?
0:46:54 > 0:46:57So in our first 12 months of trading last year,
0:46:57 > 0:47:01we posted 25k in revenue with a net loss of 55k.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06We're now half, just over halfway through year two,
0:47:06 > 0:47:10and we're on track to hitting this year's forecasted figures of 230k
0:47:10 > 0:47:16revenue with a gross profit of 140k and a net loss of 43k.
0:47:17 > 0:47:19And what's causing your losses, then?
0:47:19 > 0:47:22It's been investment in stock. So we're currently sitting on a lot of stock.
0:47:22 > 0:47:26Because we had a long delay to Holland & Barrett coming live,
0:47:26 > 0:47:28we were delayed quite a few months on that, so we had to...
0:47:28 > 0:47:31I think that's just cash flow, it wouldn't be driving your losses.
0:47:31 > 0:47:35James, you're going to do a gross margin of 140,000 this year,
0:47:35 > 0:47:39but lose 43, so somewhere you're spending 183,000.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41It's predominantly from marketing.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44- Because Holland & Barrett...- So are you going to spend 100 grand or
0:47:44 > 0:47:46- something on marketing?- Not as much as that, about 80.
0:47:46 > 0:47:50That seems like an awful lot of money to have to spend to drive
0:47:50 > 0:47:51the revenues you want.
0:47:53 > 0:47:57Heavy losses have left a bitter aftertaste for former banker Jenny
0:47:57 > 0:48:02Campbell. And Peter Jones wants to know if the pot is now empty.
0:48:04 > 0:48:07You've obviously raised some money to be able to afford the losses that
0:48:07 > 0:48:09you're taking in the last couple of years.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12- Yes.- So how much money have you raised?
0:48:12 > 0:48:16So we've done two funding rounds of 50k.
0:48:16 > 0:48:19I've also put in 20k into the business myself.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22So you're at a 55k loss and a 43k loss.
0:48:22 > 0:48:23Mmm. Yes,
0:48:23 > 0:48:27because we've had quite a lot of high start-up costs relatively in
0:48:27 > 0:48:29formulating the product, the branding.
0:48:29 > 0:48:34You have invested or received £100,000?
0:48:34 > 0:48:36- Yes.- That's now gone?
0:48:36 > 0:48:37Mmm-hmm.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40You personally have put a director's loan in of 20,000,
0:48:40 > 0:48:42that's a loan that's due back to you?
0:48:42 > 0:48:44- Mmm-hmm.- That's gone.
0:48:44 > 0:48:45You have no money.
0:48:46 > 0:48:48Well...
0:48:48 > 0:48:50That's why we're looking for investment.
0:48:50 > 0:48:53Why do you think your company is worth three-quarters of a million pounds, James?
0:48:53 > 0:48:57That valuation is based on three times this year's projected
0:48:57 > 0:49:00- revenue.- What company has been sold for three times revenue
0:49:00 > 0:49:02that you're aware of?
0:49:02 > 0:49:04Well, various other food and drink companies.
0:49:04 > 0:49:06- Tell me one.- Innocent, GU...
0:49:06 > 0:49:08Innocent was sold for what?
0:49:09 > 0:49:12Was it north of 20 million, I think?
0:49:12 > 0:49:14I don't know the exact valuation it was.
0:49:14 > 0:49:15OK, so that tells me you don't know.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22James, I'm going to be really quite quick.
0:49:23 > 0:49:25I think you need more than just money,
0:49:25 > 0:49:28you need some financial help and assistance with your business to
0:49:28 > 0:49:30remodel it and really get a decent, concerted plan.
0:49:32 > 0:49:36I don't see this as a very big opportunity, and your forecasted growth,
0:49:36 > 0:49:37I just don't believe.
0:49:38 > 0:49:39I'm sorry, I can't invest.
0:49:40 > 0:49:41I'm out.
0:49:44 > 0:49:49Peter Jones is unable to forecast a rosy future for the company.
0:49:49 > 0:49:52But it appears that Deborah Meaden has little faith in
0:49:52 > 0:49:55her fellow Dragon's financial fortune-telling.
0:49:57 > 0:49:58James, I don't actually agree.
0:49:58 > 0:50:02- I don't think your numbers are wrong. I think they're right. - I think you're wrong.
0:50:02 > 0:50:05- How?- They are wrong. The only reason why he's got 20,000 left,
0:50:05 > 0:50:08which is what I said, is because he had his director's loan.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11Yeah, but he's still got the cash. It doesn't make any difference.
0:50:11 > 0:50:13When he got to the end of the year, he has not got any money.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15If he was to take out his director's loan and repay it back...
0:50:15 > 0:50:19But he's not going to... Are you going to take your director's loan out at the end of the year?
0:50:19 > 0:50:22- Categorically, not. I am not.- Yeah, but the statement was factual, at the end of the year,
0:50:22 > 0:50:25- the company has no money.- But right now we do have 23k cash...
0:50:25 > 0:50:30At the end of the year, the company has the cash, because it has £20,000 from your director's loan account.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33So I don't think the cash is your particular issue.
0:50:33 > 0:50:35I have one issue with this business,
0:50:35 > 0:50:39and that is if I'm bothered about drinking green tea
0:50:39 > 0:50:44for a health aspect, and I'm taking vitamin supplements,
0:50:44 > 0:50:49I am worried that this is not as good as doing what I currently do.
0:50:51 > 0:50:55That is not designed for somebody that already takes green tea and
0:50:55 > 0:50:59already takes a supplement. It could be, because they might want the convenience.
0:50:59 > 0:51:02It's designed for anybody that's coming into the tea category,
0:51:02 > 0:51:03the two areas that are growing,
0:51:03 > 0:51:05and they're looking for a tea for their immune system.
0:51:05 > 0:51:08The trouble is, you're saying the vitamins piece
0:51:08 > 0:51:11is a bit of an add-on, so that is a real worry for me.
0:51:13 > 0:51:16I'm afraid I won't be investing.
0:51:16 > 0:51:17- I'm out.- Thank you, Deborah.
0:51:19 > 0:51:23After a financial storm in a tea cup with Peter Jones,
0:51:23 > 0:51:25Deborah Meaden leaves the negotiations
0:51:25 > 0:51:27unconvinced by the product.
0:51:29 > 0:51:32But has Touker Suleyman spotted something refreshing
0:51:32 > 0:51:35in a business making supercharged char?
0:51:38 > 0:51:39James...
0:51:40 > 0:51:41You come across...
0:51:43 > 0:51:45- ..credible.- Thank you.
0:51:45 > 0:51:49But at the end of the day, I totally agree with what Peter says,
0:51:49 > 0:51:50you'll run out of money.
0:51:52 > 0:51:57And I think it's what you call in the old business sense overtrading.
0:51:59 > 0:52:03Today, you're getting no investment from me, but thank you for the tea,
0:52:03 > 0:52:05- and I'm out.- OK, thank you, Touker.
0:52:07 > 0:52:10Touker Suleyman becomes the third Dragon to make
0:52:10 > 0:52:12an early exit from the party.
0:52:13 > 0:52:18But does supplement giant Tej Lalvani see infusing tea
0:52:18 > 0:52:20with vitamins as a potent business?
0:52:23 > 0:52:27James, your biggest problems here is your £750,000 valuation
0:52:27 > 0:52:29for the business.
0:52:31 > 0:52:32OK, it's a nice product.
0:52:32 > 0:52:34I'm not happy about the packaging.
0:52:34 > 0:52:36I think it doesn't communicate stuff on there.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39Formulation, again, I'm still not 100%.
0:52:41 > 0:52:42But...
0:52:46 > 0:52:49..what I will do is make you an offer.
0:52:53 > 0:52:56It would need to be on the following basis,
0:52:56 > 0:52:59that I'd like to co-brand it or brand it with Vitabiotics,
0:52:59 > 0:53:03because it needs to be a shared vision,
0:53:03 > 0:53:06and I would want to take more of an active role in it.
0:53:08 > 0:53:09UK, internationally.
0:53:11 > 0:53:13And to make any sense of the valuation...
0:53:15 > 0:53:18..I'll need a significant amount of equity.
0:53:21 > 0:53:23Which means I would want 50% of your business.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28OK. Thank you.
0:53:29 > 0:53:32Tej Lalvani shakes things up with a bid,
0:53:32 > 0:53:38offering the full £75,000, but for half of James' company.
0:53:39 > 0:53:41Only Jenny Campbell remains.
0:53:41 > 0:53:45Does she share her fellow Dragon's thirst for investing
0:53:45 > 0:53:47in the boosted beverage?
0:53:47 > 0:53:49See, my position, James,
0:53:49 > 0:53:52is that I do think you probably have something here.
0:53:54 > 0:53:55Hearing Tej talk about, you know,
0:53:55 > 0:53:59wanting to take 50% of your business makes me think that leaves a
0:53:59 > 0:54:00structure in the wrong place.
0:54:00 > 0:54:03Having said that, I totally get the value that
0:54:03 > 0:54:05he would add to your business.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10So I think it's very difficult to compete with that.
0:54:10 > 0:54:12Come on, Jenny, you're a Dragon.
0:54:13 > 0:54:14Says he.
0:54:19 > 0:54:24OK, so I think where I would be, James, I do like it,
0:54:24 > 0:54:26but there is an awful lot to do.
0:54:26 > 0:54:29So I would be prepared to put up half the money...
0:54:32 > 0:54:34..for 20%.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36OK, thank you, Jenny.
0:54:41 > 0:54:42Is that anything...
0:54:44 > 0:54:46..you would respond to, Tej, or...?
0:54:48 > 0:54:51See, I feel I don't need another Dragon,
0:54:51 > 0:54:54and that's precisely why I wanted 50% of the business.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57We do marketing better than any other vitamin company in the UK.
0:54:57 > 0:55:02And the expertise in formulation, nutrition, product development,
0:55:02 > 0:55:05branding - all those areas I can help in.
0:55:05 > 0:55:07So that's my position.
0:55:08 > 0:55:09So, in light of that, Jenny,
0:55:09 > 0:55:13is there any way that you would put in an offer before I consider it
0:55:13 > 0:55:15- of...?- No, my offer is for half of 20%.
0:55:15 > 0:55:19So you really need to consider Tej's full offer.
0:55:21 > 0:55:23Do you mind if I chat to the wall for two minutes?
0:55:23 > 0:55:24Thank you.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29Jenny Campbell's offer is void without Tej Lalvani
0:55:29 > 0:55:31being prepared to share.
0:55:32 > 0:55:37But he is citing his strength in the supplement sector to demand 50%
0:55:37 > 0:55:41equity, five times more than the ten originally offered.
0:55:48 > 0:55:52Right, OK. Well, thank you first of all for everyone's comments and Tej
0:55:52 > 0:55:54and Jenny for your offers.
0:55:56 > 0:55:59Tej, is there any way that I could counter offer
0:55:59 > 0:56:02with some kind of ratchet deal so that if we do hit
0:56:02 > 0:56:07the projections that I'm setting out that you would
0:56:07 > 0:56:10reduce equity to below the 50%?
0:56:13 > 0:56:17For me, as an investor, I would like to have
0:56:17 > 0:56:20as much involvement as you are.
0:56:20 > 0:56:24It needs to really be 50%.
0:56:26 > 0:56:28So is that no, Tej?
0:56:28 > 0:56:30No. Unfortunately.
0:56:31 > 0:56:33Can I talk to the wall for one moment?
0:56:33 > 0:56:34- Yeah.- Thank you.
0:56:37 > 0:56:40Tej Lalvani sticks with a risky strategy.
0:56:41 > 0:56:46To add his reputation to the vitamin tea comes at a cost.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49It's a tough decision for James.
0:56:49 > 0:56:52Reject the offer to keep control of the business
0:56:52 > 0:56:54or give up half his company.
0:56:57 > 0:57:00OK, yeah, I'd like to accept it.
0:57:00 > 0:57:01- Well done.- Yay!- Good.
0:57:01 > 0:57:03- Thank you.- Well done. - Thank you much.
0:57:03 > 0:57:06- I appreciate it.- Good decision. - Yeah, absolutely. Thank you.
0:57:06 > 0:57:08Well done. Well done, James.
0:57:08 > 0:57:13James leaves the Den with £75,000 in the caddie and the financial
0:57:13 > 0:57:16liquidity to help the profits flow.
0:57:17 > 0:57:19It's incredible.
0:57:19 > 0:57:21Tej is the Dragon that I wanted.
0:57:24 > 0:57:26It's really going to help take our business to the next level.
0:57:27 > 0:57:30That business had no chance unless you'd done that deal.
0:57:30 > 0:57:32- Totally.- Yes.- Match made in heaven.
0:57:32 > 0:57:34The magic of Dragons' Den.
0:57:40 > 0:57:45Of course, there is always some magic involved in creating a convincing pitch
0:57:45 > 0:57:49but our successful entrepreneurs tonight can't expect
0:57:49 > 0:57:52to wave a magic wand to guarantee future success.
0:57:52 > 0:57:56That will all be down to the quality of their product
0:57:56 > 0:58:00and the hard work of them and their new Dragon partners.
0:58:02 > 0:58:03Leigh, listen, focus.
0:58:03 > 0:58:04Coming up next time...
0:58:04 > 0:58:07I don't see what's even slightly unique about this.
0:58:07 > 0:58:10You're going to be breaking even if you're lucky with that sort of margin.
0:58:12 > 0:58:15Your valuation is crazy.
0:58:15 > 0:58:18Is there one Dragon you really want
0:58:18 > 0:58:19or is it just playing games between us?
0:58:21 > 0:58:25- Have you been doing this while still at school.- I graduated three months before I set this up.
0:58:25 > 0:58:27You've... You've graduated?
0:58:28 > 0:58:30- 10%?- 10%.- No!