0:00:02 > 0:00:07Tonight, the five multimillionaires are in high spirits.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13- Almost every pitch should start like this, shouldn't it?- Yeah.
0:00:13 > 0:00:14Breathing fire, now.
0:00:14 > 0:00:15HE CHUCKLES
0:00:15 > 0:00:18But as another batch of entrepreneurs
0:00:18 > 0:00:20takes a shot at investment...
0:00:20 > 0:00:22You've made a mistake.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24It's a small business.
0:00:24 > 0:00:25- Tiny.- Really?
0:00:27 > 0:00:29..some will raise the bar...
0:00:29 > 0:00:33It's a massive vision, what you have, which I laud you for.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35..some will be served home truths.
0:00:35 > 0:00:38I looked at you all and I thought, "You all look perfectly sane."
0:00:38 > 0:00:41- 1%?- Yes.- 1%?
0:00:41 > 0:00:44- Yes, 1%.- I don't get out of bed for 1%!
0:00:47 > 0:00:50But as closing time approaches in the Den...
0:00:50 > 0:00:54Before you make a decision, I'm thinking of revising my offer.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57I'm torn between the business and you.
0:00:59 > 0:01:01..will anyone be toasting success?
0:01:01 > 0:01:02I really like it.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07And that's why I'm going to make you an offer.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42Welcome to Dragons' Den.
0:01:42 > 0:01:45When those lift doors open, nervous entrepreneurs come
0:01:45 > 0:01:49face-to-face with five fiery multimillionaires.
0:01:49 > 0:01:53They have just one chance to secure an investment or leave with nothing.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00First to face the Dragons are Matthaus Ittner
0:02:00 > 0:02:02and Paul Varga from Austria,
0:02:02 > 0:02:06and Tolu Ogunsina from Nigeria, who met at university.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12Matthaus is taking care of all the numbers.
0:02:12 > 0:02:14Tolu is building the products,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17and I myself put everything together in a nice way.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32Hi. I'm Paul.
0:02:32 > 0:02:33Hi, I'm Matthaus.
0:02:33 > 0:02:37Hi, I'm Tolu and we are the three co-founders of Playbrush.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40With Playbrush we are helping kids with their tooth-brushing
0:02:40 > 0:02:43by converting it to a fun and instructional game.
0:02:44 > 0:02:46And today, we are here to ask you, the Dragons,
0:02:46 > 0:02:50for £100,000 to help us boost our marketing in the UK.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53And in return we are offering you 1% of our business.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58- 1%?- Yes.- 1%?- Yes.
0:02:58 > 0:02:59- 1%?- Yes, 1%.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05So why have we started Playbrush in the first place?
0:03:05 > 0:03:08We were inspired by my little godchild who, like most kids,
0:03:08 > 0:03:10is not particularly keen on tooth-brushing,
0:03:10 > 0:03:13and was therefore causing his mum a lot of annoying troubles.
0:03:13 > 0:03:17Playbrush is a smart device which transforms any normal toothbrush
0:03:17 > 0:03:18into a gaming controller.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21You just plug it onto the toothbrush,
0:03:21 > 0:03:23connect it via Bluetooth to a smartphone or tablet,
0:03:23 > 0:03:27and while brushing teeth, you play fun and motivational games.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31We have sold 100,000 devices so far, within only 1½ years after launch.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33We've closed a significant deal with Unilever,
0:03:33 > 0:03:37so the Playbrush comes with branded, high-quality toothbrushes.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40So we are now here to get the Dragons on board
0:03:40 > 0:03:42and basically bring...
0:03:42 > 0:03:45..Playbrush in every bathroom in the United Kingdom.
0:03:45 > 0:03:51So we now want you to have a go, try it out, and see how it works.
0:03:51 > 0:03:52- I'll try it out.- Fantastic.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57Matthaus Ittner, Paul Varga and Tolu Ogunsina
0:03:57 > 0:04:00are hoping to extract £100,000 from a Dragon.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04- So when the arrow turns right, you have to brush.- Who am I?
0:04:04 > 0:04:06I think I'm on the right.
0:04:06 > 0:04:10In return, they're offering 1% of their app-based business
0:04:10 > 0:04:12which teaches children to clean their teeth
0:04:12 > 0:04:15by connecting their toothbrushes to tablets.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18But the £10 million valuation
0:04:18 > 0:04:22is already brushing Touker Suleyman up the wrong way.
0:04:25 > 0:04:30You've come in here wanting £100,000 for 1%?
0:04:32 > 0:04:33Yes.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36I don't get out of bed for 1%.
0:04:39 > 0:04:45So, let's get to the point, guys - tell me how big you are.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47In 2016, we had 1.2 million turnover.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51- And now we've already turned over 2 million for this year.- Yeah.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55And...we have happy to obviously,
0:04:55 > 0:04:57negotiate about the stake and the amount.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01So 1.2 million, gross profit is how much?
0:05:01 > 0:05:04So last year it was around 20%.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07- So 240,000?- Yup.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09Net profit?
0:05:09 > 0:05:10- No net profit.- Loss?- Loss.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12- How much?- 800,000?- Yeah.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17- How much?- 800,000 euros.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21- How much are you going to lose this year?- Less than last year.
0:05:21 > 0:05:22But how much less, 1 less?
0:05:22 > 0:05:25500,000 is projected now.
0:05:25 > 0:05:30We are seeking first profits in year-end 2019.
0:05:30 > 0:05:34And then we'll run it as a profitable company.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37You are burning money like a... big tech company.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39So where is the money going?
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Mainly in technology. It's the software side, the data side.
0:05:45 > 0:05:47The new products we are building.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53Huge losses revealed, but also the reason behind them -
0:05:53 > 0:05:58investment in technology aimed at securing big future profits.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00But Tej Lalvani is more concerned
0:06:00 > 0:06:03with where their income has come from so far.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06I'm a little confused on your sales and your business model.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09I mean, you've done 1.2 million sales last year,
0:06:09 > 0:06:13but I don't quite understand, have you had any sales in the UK?
0:06:13 > 0:06:17- £100,000 max.- So only about £100,000 in the UK but nothing much.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21- Where do your sales come from, which countries?- France and Germany.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25- So do you have a licensing deal with Unilever?- Yes.
0:06:25 > 0:06:26Core branding and licensing.
0:06:26 > 0:06:31Right, so, then how much of that 1.2 million has come from that deal?
0:06:31 > 0:06:32Almost 70%.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36What is the licensing deal?
0:06:36 > 0:06:38Three elements, we sell the hardware with a margin.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42And then there is a software component.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45And the third bit is a software maintenance part.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49So where it's recurring revenue on the software maintenance.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52OK, so you've had an upfront licensing deal,
0:06:52 > 0:06:56but the bit that you'll continue to make money on is software?
0:06:56 > 0:06:57Yes.
0:06:57 > 0:07:01OK. Because what I'm trying to understand is the potential
0:07:01 > 0:07:04ongoing within the license, because I've got to tell you,
0:07:04 > 0:07:08when you came in said £100,000 for 1%, I looked at you all
0:07:08 > 0:07:10and I thought, "You all look perfectly sane."
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Deborah Meaden reveals the money spinning potential of the
0:07:15 > 0:07:19recurring revenue on their licensing deal with a big household name.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23But as that goes some way to appease her doubts
0:07:23 > 0:07:28over that £10 million valuation, Jenny Campbell just isn't buying it.
0:07:31 > 0:07:36When an entrepreneur comes in the Den, I'm looking for a product
0:07:36 > 0:07:41and entrepreneur where I can invest and contribute to your success.
0:07:41 > 0:07:45And offering 1% of your business,
0:07:45 > 0:07:49I feel like a very small fish in a pond full of lots of other fish.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54And I actually don't like your product, I'm afraid.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57I'm surprised it says that dentists recommend it,
0:07:57 > 0:08:00because I think you should have a level of seriousness
0:08:00 > 0:08:01to brushing your teeth.
0:08:03 > 0:08:05So, I wish you all the best, but I'm out.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11Jenny Campbell is the first Dragon out,
0:08:11 > 0:08:13at odds with the concept behind the product.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18But Tej Lalvani, the head of a global vitamin empire,
0:08:18 > 0:08:22is feeling a certain synergy with the dental health entrepreneurs.
0:08:23 > 0:08:27I think...you guys are smart.
0:08:27 > 0:08:29And the product is interesting.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34In the UK, my company has distribution
0:08:34 > 0:08:36in all the major retailers.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42It would require quite a bit of my time,
0:08:42 > 0:08:45but I can get you access to all the retail points that you need to.
0:08:50 > 0:08:51So I'm going to make you an offer.
0:08:56 > 0:08:59I'm going to offer you £100,000, the full amount,
0:08:59 > 0:09:00but a 10% of the business.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03OK, thank you very much.
0:09:03 > 0:09:06An offer from Tej Lalvani,
0:09:06 > 0:09:10who can see a ready-made market for the product.
0:09:10 > 0:09:11But it comes at a price,
0:09:11 > 0:09:15ten times higher than the entrepreneurs wanted to give away.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19But before Deborah Meaden makes up her mind,
0:09:19 > 0:09:23she's got some digging to do on their plans for future investment.
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Other than the £100,000 you're asking for today,
0:09:28 > 0:09:29are you going to need more money?
0:09:29 > 0:09:32It would be part of a bigger round we are currently doing.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35So I'm glad I asked that.
0:09:35 > 0:09:37So what's the raise this time round?
0:09:37 > 0:09:381.5 million.
0:09:39 > 0:09:44So post this round, what will the shareholding look like?
0:09:44 > 0:09:46There are three of us, the founders,
0:09:46 > 0:09:50and the employees will have around 60%.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Our current investors already have 25%, 26%
0:09:53 > 0:09:56and the new investors will also participate.
0:09:57 > 0:09:58OK.
0:09:59 > 0:10:03I'm really interested in the licensing piece.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07However, you have made it quite hard
0:10:07 > 0:10:11because you're not going to be able to agree to massive percentages
0:10:11 > 0:10:14because we're in the middle of a fundraise.
0:10:14 > 0:10:15But I am going to make you an offer...
0:10:17 > 0:10:18..for all of the money.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22And I want 5% of the business.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29Deborah Meaden undercuts Tej Lalvani's bid by half,
0:10:29 > 0:10:32as she discovers the financial constraints
0:10:32 > 0:10:34dictating the trio's terms.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39Will Touker Suleyman also want a piece
0:10:39 > 0:10:41of the tooth-brushing innovation?
0:10:42 > 0:10:45I'm already in this market with a teething toy
0:10:45 > 0:10:47which we'll now put it into a brush.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51We have the distribution, we have the warehousing, offices
0:10:51 > 0:10:53if you really wanted to, in London.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56I've got the infrastructure to do a lot of things for you.
0:10:56 > 0:11:00So there's a lot to create a proper business very quickly in the UK.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07If I'm going to offer you all that, plus my knowledge of sourcing...
0:11:11 > 0:11:13..what's that worth to you?
0:11:18 > 0:11:19You've gone silent, boys.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23No... No, it's exactly this 1% that we are offering.
0:11:23 > 0:11:28Hold on, hold on, so you want me to put 1% for 100,000
0:11:28 > 0:11:29and to give you all the rest for free?
0:11:35 > 0:11:39I think I can add a lot of value to you.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41And I'm going to make you an offer.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44I'm going to give you all the money,
0:11:44 > 0:11:45but I want 10%.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51Touker Suleyman joins the Dragons' bidding war,
0:11:51 > 0:11:56matching Tej Lalvani's offer of 10% for all the money.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01But tech giant Peter Jones is yet to have his say
0:12:01 > 0:12:04on the child-friendly smart device.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09I like the fact that you are a software business.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12I've spent many, many years developing software.
0:12:12 > 0:12:13We're able to take a brand
0:12:13 > 0:12:17and put into multiple countries around the world.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20I've spent millions on that.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22And I love the technology,
0:12:22 > 0:12:25and I think where you going with it is definitely the future.
0:12:29 > 0:12:30I really like it.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38And that's why I'm going to make you an offer.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42I'm going to offer you all of the money...
0:12:44 > 0:12:45..for 5%.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47- ALL:- Thank you.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51Um, before you make a decision, I'm thinking of revising my offer.
0:12:55 > 0:12:58I shall actually think I can add a lot more value
0:12:58 > 0:13:00than the other Dragons have offered.
0:13:01 > 0:13:03We're launching a product in the US,
0:13:03 > 0:13:07we're in the process of launching a dental vitamin-enriched product
0:13:07 > 0:13:10in the UK, so I think we're completely aligned.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15I'll drop the 10%...
0:13:19 > 0:13:22..to 6%.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28Do want to go to the wall and have a chat?
0:13:28 > 0:13:30- Yes, please!- Thank you.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34With four offers up for grabs,
0:13:34 > 0:13:37the toothbrush trio have a lot to consider.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39THEY CONFER
0:13:39 > 0:13:41I'm not sure.
0:13:41 > 0:13:45Peter Jones and Deborah Meaden are each seeking a 5% stake,
0:13:45 > 0:13:50Tej Lalvani 6% and Touker Suleyman 10%.
0:13:52 > 0:13:55Time for the entrepreneurs to decide their fate.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02OK. Thank you very much.
0:14:02 > 0:14:03We really much appreciate it.
0:14:05 > 0:14:08But we cannot accept your offers as they stand.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16We have a counter offer, especially for Deborah.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21What we could offer is a board advisor position in the company,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23obviously no financial commitments now,
0:14:23 > 0:14:26but just to bring in your expertise and help us.
0:14:26 > 0:14:27Am I working for you now?
0:14:27 > 0:14:28THEY LAUGH
0:14:28 > 0:14:32- No, you're advising us.- You're advising us four times a year.
0:14:32 > 0:14:34You can't do that, guys. You're in here for investment.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36You can't come in here for advice.
0:14:36 > 0:14:40- No, you can't. No, you can't do that.- Apologies.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43So what do you want to do, are you accepting...? What are you doing?
0:14:45 > 0:14:46Then we cannot accept.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53We can go up to 1.25% for the 100,000.
0:14:53 > 0:14:54Wow!
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Is that your ceiling? Well, then...
0:15:00 > 0:15:04I'm really sorry, guys. I really wish you all the best but I'm out.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Guys, I'm out.
0:15:13 > 0:15:171.25% is not doable, particularly with 800,000 losses,
0:15:17 > 0:15:21and the value that I was going to bring, we're too far apart, so...
0:15:21 > 0:15:23I wish you all the best, but I'm out.
0:15:26 > 0:15:29It's really disappointing.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32That's definitely it - 1.25 is your maximum counter?
0:15:33 > 0:15:36We... Because it's already committed to a certain valuation.
0:15:36 > 0:15:40- We can't change it.- OK, I have to say sadly that as a result, I'm out.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44- ALL:- Thank you very much.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47With the entrepreneurs refusing to budge on their equity,
0:15:47 > 0:15:51their brush with the Dragons doesn't end well
0:15:51 > 0:15:53and they leave the Den with nothing.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57That was annoying.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01I thought they would counter it with 3%, even. But...
0:16:01 > 0:16:04It was never there. They never had the flexibility to do that.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15Next into the Den tonight
0:16:15 > 0:16:19are business partners Mike Fisher and inventor Shane Monaghan...
0:16:20 > 0:16:24..with a gadget that targets bad backs.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28I've been a doctor for 25 years and I've flown all over the world
0:16:28 > 0:16:30and lived in the most extraordinary places for one thing.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34I fix pain.
0:16:35 > 0:16:40The pair are equally confident about their ability to fix an investment.
0:16:40 > 0:16:42The fact of the matter is we've got this.
0:16:51 > 0:16:53Hello, Dragons. My name's Mike Fisher
0:16:53 > 0:16:56and I'm here with my friend and partner, Shane Murnaghan.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00And we're here to introduce you to our product, GRAVITY.
0:17:00 > 0:17:05We're looking for £25,000 for 10% of our business.
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Back pain is a hidden epidemic of misery
0:17:09 > 0:17:11and complicated solutions.
0:17:11 > 0:17:17I know this from over 20 years as a therapist, fixing spines.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19That's puts me in a great position to understand
0:17:19 > 0:17:22and to design this system of GRAVITY.
0:17:22 > 0:17:26The secret is if you really want to recover spinal pain,
0:17:26 > 0:17:29you have to work at both ends of the spine
0:17:29 > 0:17:31at the same time, simultaneously.
0:17:31 > 0:17:36And GRAVITY is the best system available to be able to do that.
0:17:36 > 0:17:37It is a two-piece system.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41One piece goes on the neck,
0:17:41 > 0:17:43and the other piece goes on the sacrum,
0:17:43 > 0:17:45which is the middle of your pelvis.
0:17:45 > 0:17:49And, in between these two positions, it holds the spine still
0:17:49 > 0:17:53and it simultaneously allows the body to start to unwind.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56You put these in place and lie down on the ground.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58And this starts to rock
0:17:58 > 0:18:00and this starts to rock with your pelvis
0:18:00 > 0:18:02and they talk to each other.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07It rocks it all the way right down to your pelvis.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09And then you just get up and walk away.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12This is the only product you lie down and do nothing
0:18:12 > 0:18:14and get massive results.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16So, if you're in a time of pain and strain,
0:18:16 > 0:18:17this can become your best friend.
0:18:19 > 0:18:22So we've got some samples for you today to have yourselves
0:18:22 > 0:18:25and maybe invite somebody to have a lie on the bench and feel...
0:18:25 > 0:18:27I'll lie on the bench, cos I need it.
0:18:27 > 0:18:28He needs to lie down!
0:18:28 > 0:18:30THEY LAUGH
0:18:30 > 0:18:33On the table from Shane Murnaghan and Mike Fisher...
0:18:33 > 0:18:34That's it.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36..10% of their company,
0:18:36 > 0:18:39selling their invention to combat back pain...
0:18:39 > 0:18:42- Just scoop this under the back of the neck.- Oh!
0:18:42 > 0:18:45..in return for £25,000.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48- I think I've got the knack of it. - OK.- Oh!
0:18:48 > 0:18:50He's a new man.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53Taster session over, Touker Suleyman is keen to find out
0:18:53 > 0:18:56more about the twosome's credentials.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02Tell me about yourselves first, before we go any further.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Shane. where do you come into all this, you're a therapist?
0:19:05 > 0:19:07Yes, I'm a doctor of traditional Chinese medicine.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10I've been a working therapist for over 25 years
0:19:10 > 0:19:14and it brought me to this after I broke my own back in 2008,
0:19:14 > 0:19:17which created the necessity to design the system.
0:19:17 > 0:19:21And my background is 30 years in business,
0:19:21 > 0:19:23sports and sports wholesale.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25OK. Let's hear about the business -
0:19:25 > 0:19:27how much have you turned over so far?
0:19:27 > 0:19:30We've turned over just under £80,000.
0:19:30 > 0:19:35The first sort of five, six months, 20,000. Next 12 months, 36,000.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38And then this last three months, we've done 15,000, 16,000.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40There's been a sort of steady progression
0:19:40 > 0:19:42in the last three months.
0:19:42 > 0:19:43And what does it sell for?
0:19:43 > 0:19:45- £99.- How much?
0:19:45 > 0:19:48- £99.- What does it cost you?
0:19:48 > 0:19:50It costs us...
0:19:50 > 0:19:53just under £18 to manufacture.
0:19:53 > 0:19:54So it's a good margin.
0:19:55 > 0:19:57But it's a very, very niche product.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03It's got to need a lot of intense, personal selling.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09Despite a healthy margin, Touker Suleyman diagnoses
0:20:09 > 0:20:13an uphill struggle to achieve big sales for the product.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17But Deborah Meaden seems more worried about
0:20:17 > 0:20:19whether the invention actually works.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25I am your absolute target market.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29I had a broken pelvis from a riding accident many years ago,
0:20:29 > 0:20:32I have a weekly massage to try and get myself back aligned
0:20:32 > 0:20:35and, actually, this isn't going to replace that.
0:20:35 > 0:20:37This is the thing in between.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39But I've got a cupboard full of product
0:20:39 > 0:20:41that claims to release that tension.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49I'm not going to buy any more until I'm absolutely told that they work.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52- Fed up of not getting the answers. - I'm fed up of spending a fortune.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Do you know, I deal with this every day.
0:20:55 > 0:20:58It's a huge problem to get the confidence of the general public
0:20:58 > 0:21:00- because so much doesn't work. - But couldn't I get it wrong?
0:21:00 > 0:21:02If you lie on that in the wrong place,
0:21:02 > 0:21:05- couldn't I cause myself more problems?- I don't believe you can.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08If you actually look at the keystone itself,
0:21:08 > 0:21:11if a person finds it uncomfortable, well, you peel it off,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13the hard plastic piece,
0:21:13 > 0:21:16and you use only the soft silicone piece which we recommend.
0:21:16 > 0:21:19People with back strain have great sensitivity
0:21:19 > 0:21:20in the lower back and their neck,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23and they're very acutely aware of anything in that place.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25- But that's exactly my point.- Sure.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27I wouldn't know, "Is this is good uncomfortable,
0:21:27 > 0:21:29"or is this bad uncomfortable?"
0:21:29 > 0:21:30When people say it feels uncomfortable,
0:21:30 > 0:21:34we'll say just use one side and if there's any discomfort,
0:21:34 > 0:21:36just adjust just a little bit
0:21:36 > 0:21:39because your body is adjusting as soon as you step onto this.
0:21:41 > 0:21:43The passionate entrepreneur
0:21:43 > 0:21:46demonstrates total faith in his creation.
0:21:47 > 0:21:52Now, Jenny Campbell wants to know if the duo have covered THEIR backs
0:21:52 > 0:21:53and protected their product?
0:21:56 > 0:21:59- Have you got some IP over this? - We have all the IP over this.- Yes.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01What does that mean, you've got IP over what?
0:22:01 > 0:22:06I've designed and completely applied the patents to the curves,
0:22:06 > 0:22:11the surface, the inventive step of this whole design system,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14it's unique in the fact that it's a two-part spinal system
0:22:14 > 0:22:17and we've spent the first year really protecting our IP
0:22:17 > 0:22:20and looking for design protection as well.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23You have a full patent over the... over each object?
0:22:23 > 0:22:25- Patent pending in the UK. - A patent pending?
0:22:26 > 0:22:29It's pending but it's imminent.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31Do you have a patent agreed
0:22:31 > 0:22:33- in any country around the world at the moment?- No, we haven't.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36But we've got design registrations agreed around the world.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42Jenny Campbell hits a sore spot with the entrepreneurs
0:22:42 > 0:22:45as she reveals a lack of protection on their product.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48And Peter Jones wants to know
0:22:48 > 0:22:52if the device has endorsement from the medical profession.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58Has this been approved by anybody clinically?
0:22:58 > 0:23:01We are in the process of doing approval trials.
0:23:05 > 0:23:08That's what I felt you were going to say.
0:23:08 > 0:23:10Yeah, it is very serious and exciting, Peter.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13It is, but the worry that I've got is that you've gone out
0:23:13 > 0:23:15with a product already and you're trying to sell it
0:23:15 > 0:23:18without actually any level of proof that it works.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23Well, I suppose the proof of concept that we have is the trials
0:23:23 > 0:23:26that I've done with it over the last three years, in clinic,
0:23:26 > 0:23:28and also the sales we've been getting in the returns.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31Yeah, that's not proof because that could've been done just
0:23:31 > 0:23:34with a normal bed with a neck brace and something up your bottom.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37That's a very reasonable statement to make
0:23:37 > 0:23:39because in yoga you have semi-supine position,
0:23:39 > 0:23:42- where you just sit that way with a book under your head.- Exactly.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46- But it doesn't have the same effect whatsoever.- That's my point, though.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49That's not clinical trials to actually prove
0:23:49 > 0:23:51that this actually does what it says on the tin.
0:23:54 > 0:23:59The pressure is building on the duo as they admit to Peter Jones
0:23:59 > 0:24:03they currently don't have the data to support their claims.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05Which has set alarm bells ringing
0:24:05 > 0:24:08for health supplements boss Tej Lalvani.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12- Guys, my company is based around science.- Yes.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17About fact, about research and about clinical trials.
0:24:17 > 0:24:20And our products, a lot of our products are clinically proven,
0:24:20 > 0:24:23- double-blind, placebo-controlled trials...- Yes.
0:24:23 > 0:24:28..with major universities, to show the effectiveness of the product.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30And you can't talk about the product's benefits
0:24:30 > 0:24:32if you haven't got that research.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36Now, I'm a very evidence-based man,
0:24:36 > 0:24:38I need to see why it works and how it works.
0:24:40 > 0:24:42And that's a problem.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46And just on those reasons alone, as much as I love back products,
0:24:46 > 0:24:48because I do get back pain now and then...
0:24:49 > 0:24:52..I'm going to have to decline and say I'm out.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58Tej Lalvani is the first Dragon to pass on the deal,
0:24:58 > 0:25:01unwilling to invest in an unproven health device.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05And that lack of clinical evidence
0:25:05 > 0:25:08is also making Jenny Campbell feel ill at ease.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13Do you still feel confident in going to the market
0:25:13 > 0:25:16with products that have not got a medical qualification on,
0:25:16 > 0:25:19and for something that affects the back and the spine?
0:25:19 > 0:25:20I do, yes. Yeah.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25There must be an element of risk there, in terms of somebody saying,
0:25:25 > 0:25:27"You actually didn't fix it, you made it worse."
0:25:27 > 0:25:29I've been in this market for 20 years,
0:25:29 > 0:25:31seeing people with serious spine injury,
0:25:31 > 0:25:34and with respect to the trials that are coming on board
0:25:34 > 0:25:37with the Chartered Physiotherapy and their clients,
0:25:37 > 0:25:39these trials will be hundreds, 200 people using it
0:25:39 > 0:25:41and coming back and giving their feedback.
0:25:41 > 0:25:44That's great. I just feel that that probably needs to happen first.
0:25:46 > 0:25:49OK. Look, I'll tell you where I am.
0:25:52 > 0:25:55I am not going to help you propel a product that's not proven.
0:25:56 > 0:25:59I think that's walking into a very difficult area
0:25:59 > 0:26:01that could become quite sticky.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04I wish you all the best on your journey, but I'm out.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11Guys, I should want this,
0:26:11 > 0:26:18but without you being able to tell me that it absolutely works,
0:26:18 > 0:26:20I couldn't get involved.
0:26:22 > 0:26:24So, I'm out.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31Guys, I think the most important thing is you're here prematurely.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38Unfortunately, I'm not going to be investing today and I'm out.
0:26:41 > 0:26:43Three more Dragons are down,
0:26:43 > 0:26:47deterred by the lack of scientific validation of the product.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52Will the last Dragon standing, Peter Jones,
0:26:52 > 0:26:54be prepared to heal the damaged pitch?
0:26:57 > 0:27:00I think the best thing to do is when you have that back pain
0:27:00 > 0:27:03is to see a professional and take professional, expert advice.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06With respect, sir, I am a professional
0:27:06 > 0:27:08and have been doing it for over 20 years
0:27:08 > 0:27:10and I have a very solid record of recovering people
0:27:10 > 0:27:13- from serious back pain. - But you meet them?
0:27:13 > 0:27:16Ah, but meeting somebody is not all it takes
0:27:16 > 0:27:18to get a moving spine to work.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21It is actually down to what the spine does
0:27:21 > 0:27:24and how it resolves its own characteristics.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26So I don't need you, then. I don't need you.
0:27:26 > 0:27:27That's right, you don't need me,
0:27:27 > 0:27:29you need the product, that's the difference.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31This virtually makes me redundant.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36The big thing here is that you have become preacher of your own product
0:27:36 > 0:27:39and that is, for me, not good.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42And the reason why it's not good
0:27:42 > 0:27:44is because you're trying to get investment.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46You need to be far more credible
0:27:46 > 0:27:49and come in with something that says,
0:27:49 > 0:27:52"Dragons, this is the research that's been conducted
0:27:52 > 0:27:53"over the last 12 months -
0:27:53 > 0:27:55these are the results,"
0:27:55 > 0:27:57and then back it up with your claims.
0:27:58 > 0:28:02And, Peter, if that were to be so in 12 months' time,
0:28:02 > 0:28:06if we were working together and that exploded it,
0:28:06 > 0:28:10wouldn't that put credibility on our enthusiasm and our sincerity now
0:28:10 > 0:28:13- going into these trials?- It really would. It would make it believable.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16It would. But it's impossible to invest in something like this
0:28:16 > 0:28:19without the clinical trial.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22So I'm going to say good luck with it.
0:28:22 > 0:28:23I'm out.
0:28:25 > 0:28:26Thank you very much, Dragons.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28- Good luck.- Good luck, guys.
0:28:28 > 0:28:30Well, they fought to the bitter end
0:28:30 > 0:28:32but, not for the first time in the Den,
0:28:32 > 0:28:37the entrepreneurs' lack of ability to officially back up their claims
0:28:37 > 0:28:39cost them any hope of a Dragon partnership.
0:28:39 > 0:28:40MIKE: That was a grilling.
0:28:40 > 0:28:42- Could have been worse. - I don't think so!
0:28:44 > 0:28:47The world's changing, and people object to studies
0:28:47 > 0:28:49as much as people approve of them.
0:28:49 > 0:28:51I gave up trusting reports a long time ago.
0:28:51 > 0:28:52I believe in results.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02You can't do that, guys, you're in here for investment.
0:29:02 > 0:29:03You're not here for advice.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06The Den's been in fiery form tonight.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09I am not going to help you propel a product that's not proven.
0:29:09 > 0:29:13Hold up, hold up, so you want me to put 1% for 100,000
0:29:13 > 0:29:16and to give you all the rest for free?
0:29:16 > 0:29:20But as the Dragons unleashed their wrath on our final entrepreneurs...
0:29:20 > 0:29:24My gut instinct is telling me this market is not huge.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27To take a risk at this stage with so little
0:29:27 > 0:29:29is going to be a challenge for me.
0:29:29 > 0:29:31Where were you going to raise the extra money to build all this?
0:29:31 > 0:29:33I've no idea. Don't know.
0:29:34 > 0:29:37There's still time to strike a deal.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39You are very bubbly and engaging,
0:29:39 > 0:29:41you're a very investable entrepreneur.
0:29:41 > 0:29:44The more I drink, the more interested I get.
0:29:44 > 0:29:45I'm going to make you an offer.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47But it comes with a huge price.
0:29:54 > 0:29:55Next into the Den tonight
0:29:55 > 0:29:59is fledgling products designer Sophia Ferguson...
0:30:00 > 0:30:04..who wants a Dragon on board to make her baby business boom.
0:30:04 > 0:30:08I need that extra step to take us to where it needs to go.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10And I can't do that on my own now.
0:30:18 > 0:30:24Hi, I'm Sophia and I'm here today to look for investment of £50,000
0:30:24 > 0:30:26for 20% share in my business.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30Tickle Tots is my brand of modern cloth nappies
0:30:30 > 0:30:33and accessories designed for adventurous tots.
0:30:33 > 0:30:35And this is an opportunity to support a start-up
0:30:35 > 0:30:38which has doubled its sales in the first 18 months of trading.
0:30:40 > 0:30:41Growing up in rural mid-Wales,
0:30:41 > 0:30:44I've always had a love for the environment.
0:30:44 > 0:30:47In the UK alone, we send 1 million tonnes
0:30:47 > 0:30:50of disposable nappy waste to landfill every year.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53But for every child in full-time cloth nappies,
0:30:53 > 0:30:57that saves 5,500 disposables from entering landfill.
0:30:58 > 0:31:00When my daughter was born, I really wanted to do my part
0:31:00 > 0:31:02and use cloth nappies.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05However, I really struggled to find a cloth system that worked for us.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09So I hit my sewing machine and Tickle Tots was born.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13The features include rise snaps to adjust the size
0:31:13 > 0:31:17to last your baby from birth all the way up to potty training.
0:31:17 > 0:31:20We have hook-and-loop closing for quick and speedy changes.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24Our new nappy, which we recently launched,
0:31:24 > 0:31:27has a waterproof shell which can be wiped clean, reused,
0:31:27 > 0:31:29and a new set of boosters snapped in.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33The UK nappy market is worth £817 million
0:31:33 > 0:31:37with a global market worth of 43 billion.
0:31:37 > 0:31:39I'd now like to bring you some samples
0:31:39 > 0:31:40and open the floor to any questions.
0:31:44 > 0:31:48On a mission to convert parents from disposable nappies to cloth...
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Thank you, Sophia.
0:31:50 > 0:31:55..Sophia Ferguson is looking for £50,000 for 20% of her company.
0:31:56 > 0:32:00First up, dad of two young children Tej Lalvani,
0:32:00 > 0:32:03who's poised for a lesson in the cloth nappy basics.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10I love the quality, it's really, really good.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13The fabric, the materials and it looks very nice as well.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16I just want to understand how this works.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18Basically, before babies are onto solids,
0:32:18 > 0:32:21it just goes straight in the wash with an extra rinse cycle,
0:32:21 > 0:32:22it's absolutely fine.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25Once they go on solids, you can buy a flushable liner.
0:32:25 > 0:32:27You can get bamboo ones, which is a thin layer,
0:32:27 > 0:32:30literally goes in here, all the moisture wicks through to the core,
0:32:30 > 0:32:32- and then it catches the solids. - Right.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37So you said you'd doubled sales in 18 months.
0:32:37 > 0:32:38Talk to me about that journey.
0:32:38 > 0:32:43From the first year, we took sales of about £8,000 from the UK.
0:32:43 > 0:32:45And made a net loss of about £100.
0:32:46 > 0:32:50This year, we've taken over £23,000
0:32:50 > 0:32:53and we'll end up with a net profit of around 3,000.
0:32:54 > 0:32:57And have all your sales this year still been in the UK?
0:32:57 > 0:33:00No, we're now in Italy and Germany.
0:33:00 > 0:33:05- I would actually say it was probably 60% UK, 40% Europe.- OK.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11With a high-quality product and early signs of growth,
0:33:11 > 0:33:14Sophia seems to be meeting with Jenny Campbell's approval.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19Now, Tej Lalvani wants to get to the bottom
0:33:19 > 0:33:22of whether the mark-up on her product is just as impressive.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26What is your retail price of this?
0:33:26 > 0:33:29So, of the original design, it's £16.99,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32whereas our new design comes in at £18.99.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35- What is your cost?- About £6.
0:33:35 > 0:33:39- And that's made in the UK? - No, they're currently made in China.
0:33:39 > 0:33:43- And what's your wholesale price? - So, on the nappies, it's £10.50.
0:33:43 > 0:33:47Wow, so your margin's only about £4.
0:33:47 > 0:33:50At the moment, a small fry for the manufacturers,
0:33:50 > 0:33:53and the more we can order, the better the pricing can come.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56At the moment, I airfreight it in, so that price is landed cost,
0:33:56 > 0:33:59whereas if I can seafreight it, again,
0:33:59 > 0:34:00my margins are going to improve.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02Have you approached the big retailers?
0:34:02 > 0:34:06I approached John Lewis recently, and waiting to hear back.
0:34:06 > 0:34:09But I haven't been confident enough to approach the really big boys yet,
0:34:09 > 0:34:12because I need to iron out the manufacturing side of things.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16What's the problem with your manufacturing?
0:34:16 > 0:34:18I'm sure with every start-up,
0:34:18 > 0:34:20cash flow is always a bit of a tricky one.
0:34:20 > 0:34:24So I could never order enough stock to keep me going for six months
0:34:24 > 0:34:26in order to place the next order.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29So now, we've literally got final samples landed yesterday
0:34:29 > 0:34:33from a new manufacturer, which is going to give us a 30-day lead time.
0:34:33 > 0:34:35What do they charge you to print a metre of fabric?
0:34:35 > 0:34:40Well, it's coming in at about £1,000 for 200 metres.
0:34:40 > 0:34:44- So he's charging you £5 a metre? - Yes.- That's expensive.- It is.
0:34:44 > 0:34:45It's probably...
0:34:47 > 0:34:51- ..this outer fabric here.- Yes, it's a waterproof breathable fabric.
0:34:51 > 0:34:54No more than £2 a metre, £2.50.
0:34:54 > 0:34:55Um, look, I think...
0:34:57 > 0:35:00..you've got something. I like the product.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05The problem is, have you got a business that can grow?
0:35:07 > 0:35:10It's a small business, tiny.
0:35:12 > 0:35:15- Really? - Well, £23,000 turnover is tiny.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20Identifying weaknesses in her supply chain,
0:35:20 > 0:35:23manufacturing guru Touker Suleyman
0:35:23 > 0:35:26is wondering whether there's potential in Sophia's product.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31Have her non-disposable nappies whetted the appetite
0:35:31 > 0:35:34of a very green Deborah Meaden?
0:35:34 > 0:35:38It's interesting for me, because whilst it's clearly a baby product,
0:35:38 > 0:35:40it's actually an environmental issue.
0:35:40 > 0:35:42I've got a baby, I need nappies,
0:35:42 > 0:35:45I can't bear the waste that's going into landfill.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48The actual cloth itself, what's its environmental process
0:35:48 > 0:35:50and its environmental credentials?
0:35:50 > 0:35:54Or is it purely and simply that you can keep it for longer?
0:35:54 > 0:35:56It's the fact that you can keep it for longer,
0:35:56 > 0:35:58even taking into account the washing.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01Including the production of the raw materials themselves,
0:36:01 > 0:36:04these were still coming out as better for the environment
0:36:04 > 0:36:05than a disposable nappy.
0:36:05 > 0:36:08So you don't foresee scare stories in the future, saying,
0:36:08 > 0:36:10"Oh, my goodness, we've now gone into cloth
0:36:10 > 0:36:12"and look what terrible things that's doing to the world?"
0:36:12 > 0:36:15No, I think that was another driving force to using bamboo,
0:36:15 > 0:36:16because it's sustainable.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19You know, it's quickly grown and there's natural antibacterial
0:36:19 > 0:36:22properties to it, so there's lots of added bonuses that way as well.
0:36:24 > 0:36:27A confident response on the environmental credentials
0:36:27 > 0:36:29of the product from the eco-entrepreneur.
0:36:31 > 0:36:35And now it looks like Peter Jones has some inside information
0:36:35 > 0:36:37about the nappy industry.
0:36:38 > 0:36:40I think I know quite a lot about this marketplace
0:36:40 > 0:36:43because my other half, Tara, has got a business
0:36:43 > 0:36:45which actually is about to launch.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48And one of the big lead products is a nappy.
0:36:48 > 0:36:52And I've spent a lot of time understanding, researching,
0:36:52 > 0:36:53working in the marketplace.
0:36:53 > 0:36:57The market is pretty much owned and predicated by one company,
0:36:57 > 0:37:01Procter & Gamble, and all of those brands within that global empire.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06What you've created is really great, and I can see you selling a few
0:37:06 > 0:37:09into the smaller outlets, which are pretty niche.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12But in terms of making this a mainstream product,
0:37:12 > 0:37:14I think you haven't got a chance.
0:37:17 > 0:37:19I appreciate your comments.
0:37:19 > 0:37:22I mean, I think just looking at our competitors
0:37:22 > 0:37:25and you can see they're obviously massive, and I think there's room
0:37:25 > 0:37:28in the market for somebody else to come and compete against that.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34Well, I'm clearly conflicted, but I'm not going to discourage you
0:37:34 > 0:37:37from keeping this going because it's beautifully made.
0:37:37 > 0:37:38- Thank you.- It really is.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42I just don't believe that this is a big opportunity for scale.
0:37:44 > 0:37:46So, sadly, I'm out.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51Peter Jones is the first Dragon to dump the deal,
0:37:51 > 0:37:53as he raises a conflict of interest
0:37:53 > 0:37:56and doubts about the company's prospects.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00Will Jenny Campbell, who earlier seemed impressed,
0:38:00 > 0:38:03go one step further and make an offer?
0:38:03 > 0:38:06I love the product. I'm definitely going to buy some of these
0:38:06 > 0:38:08when someone makes me a grandma.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12You are very bubbly and engaging, a very investable entrepreneur.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16If I was to invest, it's more because I'm investing in you.
0:38:19 > 0:38:21You will make a lifestyle business out of it.
0:38:22 > 0:38:24But, overall, it's just not an investment.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28So I wish you all the best.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Get out there and compete, but I'm out.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39This has been battering against the marketplace since it started.
0:38:40 > 0:38:43The marketplace has been over here with disposables,
0:38:43 > 0:38:47and there's always been that growing market of the environmental issue.
0:38:47 > 0:38:50- It's becoming even more pertinent now.- Yes.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53I don't think you expect to own the market.
0:38:53 > 0:38:56I expect you want to take a small piece
0:38:56 > 0:38:58- of that growing band of people.- Yes.
0:39:00 > 0:39:04But, for me, my gut instinct is telling me this market is not huge.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08So, I'm really sorry. I'm out.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15Sophia, I'm trying to like the business and I like the product.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19But I'm just struggling in terms of the fact
0:39:19 > 0:39:22that it's going to take some time to grow the business.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25And probably, if I invest my money,
0:39:25 > 0:39:28I don't see a return for a very long time.
0:39:30 > 0:39:35So, I'm afraid I'm not going to be putting my money in today.
0:39:35 > 0:39:37I'm out.
0:39:37 > 0:39:38Thank you.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42Three more Dragons hang the nappy maker's
0:39:42 > 0:39:45investment proposition out to dry.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50Now only Touker Suleyman, who already has investments
0:39:50 > 0:39:52in the children's market, can rescue the pitch.
0:39:56 > 0:39:57It's a difficult one.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05I'm torn between the business and you.
0:40:07 > 0:40:11- How much money have you put into this?- About £25,000.
0:40:11 > 0:40:13Right, and how do you live? You've got...
0:40:13 > 0:40:16I'm currently working two nights a week as a carer,
0:40:16 > 0:40:18and my husband works full-time.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24If I invest this, my involvement would be huge, to start with.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27You need a team round you.
0:40:31 > 0:40:32Hmm.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39Phew! Difficult one.
0:40:45 > 0:40:47I think you need big support.
0:40:49 > 0:40:51So I would take over...
0:40:52 > 0:40:56..all the commercial side of the business.
0:40:56 > 0:41:02- You're responsible for the brand, the designs, the creation.- OK.
0:41:06 > 0:41:07That interest you?
0:41:09 > 0:41:11Yes, I would be open to that.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15I'm going to make you an offer.
0:41:17 > 0:41:19But it comes with a huge price.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23So I'll give you all the money.
0:41:25 > 0:41:27But I want 50%.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31It's a lot.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34- OK. Can I...? - Do you want to think about it?
0:41:34 > 0:41:36- Do you mind if I just have a moment? - Yes.
0:41:40 > 0:41:44For Sophia to give away half of her company is an agonising decision.
0:41:44 > 0:41:48It's more than double the share she originally had on the table.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51But, with a Dragon on board,
0:41:51 > 0:41:54could the gains outweigh the cost for the budding entrepreneur?
0:42:00 > 0:42:02Um, it's a lot!
0:42:03 > 0:42:08Would there be an option to own a bit more later down the line?
0:42:09 > 0:42:13- Look, when I get my money back... - Yes.- ..I'll give you back 10%.- Yes.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15And you'd have control.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20- I would like to accept that offer, then.- Good! OK.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24- Well done.- Thank you.- Well done!
0:42:24 > 0:42:26Thank you so much. Thank you, everyone!
0:42:26 > 0:42:27- Well done, Sophia.- Thank you.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32Despite giving away half of her company,
0:42:32 > 0:42:35Sophia leaves the Den flushed with success.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38I'm so happy for her. Well done, Touker.
0:42:38 > 0:42:39That's a big percentage, 50%.
0:42:39 > 0:42:43Yes, but we'll soon find out how big this market actually is.
0:42:43 > 0:42:45I feel amazing to have Touker on board.
0:42:45 > 0:42:47I wanted to keep control of the company,
0:42:47 > 0:42:51but I also completely understood what he could offer was fantastic.
0:42:52 > 0:42:55He's just going to be perfect for the business.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03The final entrepreneur tonight is Stuart Ingram from Aberdeenshire,
0:43:03 > 0:43:07who's created a product to please his own taste buds.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14There's a lot of craft brewers out there who like beer.
0:43:14 > 0:43:17I'm not a beer drinker. I do like gin.
0:43:17 > 0:43:18If you're going to make a product,
0:43:18 > 0:43:20make something you can drink yourself.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25He's hoping the Dragons will share his penchant for his tipple
0:43:25 > 0:43:27and get a taste for investment.
0:43:35 > 0:43:37Hello, Dragons. My name is Stuart Ingram,
0:43:37 > 0:43:40I'm here today to offer you the opportunity
0:43:40 > 0:43:43to invest in the brand House Of Elrick.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46The opportunity I'm offering you today is the House Of Elrick
0:43:46 > 0:43:48spirits range for an offering of £80,000
0:43:48 > 0:43:50in exchange for a 6% equity stake.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55House Of Elrick is a brand built around my own home,
0:43:55 > 0:43:59which is Elrick House, a small estate in Aberdeenshire.
0:43:59 > 0:44:01And dates back to the 1720s.
0:44:01 > 0:44:03It's got a rich history and heritage
0:44:03 > 0:44:06with strong links to Bonnie Prince Charlie
0:44:06 > 0:44:09and has been in my own family for the last 70 years.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11It happened to come on the market three and a half years ago
0:44:11 > 0:44:13and I decided to purchase the premises.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16It was at this point, I decided I wanted to try
0:44:16 > 0:44:18and create a destination venue.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22And part of that was building a restaurant and gin distillery.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25Which brings me onto my first product under the brand,
0:44:25 > 0:44:26which is a gin.
0:44:26 > 0:44:2912 months ago, whilst waiting for the planning applications
0:44:29 > 0:44:33to go through, I thought, "Why wait? Let's test the market."
0:44:33 > 0:44:36So, based on the links that we have with Bonnie Prince Charlie,
0:44:36 > 0:44:40we built a product around the Jacobite rose,
0:44:40 > 0:44:44based on Mediterranean citrus and juniper,
0:44:44 > 0:44:46with an additive of heather.
0:44:46 > 0:44:50And this is the only spirit to use Loch Ness as our water compound.
0:44:50 > 0:44:54We launched six months ago and, in that period,
0:44:54 > 0:45:00I've sold 2,800 bottles, turning over £85,000.
0:45:00 > 0:45:03Thank you for listening. Would you like to join us for a drink?
0:45:03 > 0:45:04Definitely.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10I've got two different samples here.
0:45:10 > 0:45:13A gin tapping into its Scottish heritage
0:45:13 > 0:45:15is the proposition from Stuart Ingram.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19So the small one is the straight gin, tall one gin and tonic.
0:45:19 > 0:45:24He's seeking £80,000 in return for a 6% share of his company.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27- Breathing fire now! - HE LAUGHS
0:45:27 > 0:45:30First to see if the business is a real tonic is Peter Jones.
0:45:32 > 0:45:34Stuart, I do love sitting in this chair sometimes.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37- Almost every pitch should start like this, shouldn't it?- Yeah.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39- It does help. - Regardless of what they're selling.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42- Stuart, nice back story, actually. - Thank you.
0:45:42 > 0:45:45- The property, is that the property there?- Yes, so that's Elrick House.
0:45:45 > 0:45:47And the business that you're coming in for investment
0:45:47 > 0:45:50- and you're pitching, you're not pitching the house, are you?- No, no.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53- It's the spirits business. - This is the spirits business,
0:45:53 > 0:45:54- which has been going for six months.- Yes.
0:45:54 > 0:45:56So let's talk about that then.
0:45:56 > 0:46:00- It's a big start, 2,800 bottles, quite a lot.- Six months, yes.
0:46:00 > 0:46:03- What's the price of one of these? - Retail's £38.50.
0:46:04 > 0:46:07And where does that compare to Hendrick's and others?
0:46:07 > 0:46:09I'm at the higher end, I'm probably more premium
0:46:09 > 0:46:12but then there are other gins that are over £40.
0:46:12 > 0:46:13What does it cost to make?
0:46:13 > 0:46:16I'm making it, without duty, just over £8 a bottle.
0:46:16 > 0:46:19And then, I have to build in £8.44 of duty.
0:46:19 > 0:46:24- So it costs you £16.44. - Effectively per bottle, yes.
0:46:24 > 0:46:26And what's the forecast for this year?
0:46:26 > 0:46:29So, this year, I'm targeting 8,000 bottles for year one,
0:46:29 > 0:46:33and that would give me £250,000 turnover.
0:46:33 > 0:46:38And that would generate gross 122, net profit 89,000.
0:46:40 > 0:46:43- I tell you what, that's really nice. - It's a beautiful gin.
0:46:46 > 0:46:48So far, so good, as Stuart's drink
0:46:48 > 0:46:52and his figures go down a treat with Peter Jones.
0:46:52 > 0:46:55And there's more praise on its way from Deborah Meaden,
0:46:55 > 0:46:58who's impressed with the way Stuart has packaged his product.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03It looks different.
0:47:03 > 0:47:07And in a world where there is so much gin,
0:47:07 > 0:47:10how memorable it is can make the difference.
0:47:10 > 0:47:12You've got the visual in the bottle,
0:47:12 > 0:47:14you've got the taste behind that, which is lovely. But...
0:47:16 > 0:47:18..£1.3 million?
0:47:19 > 0:47:20Valuation.
0:47:24 > 0:47:28OK... Um, it just looks quite racy at the moment.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33I've taken this product from nothing to the shelf within six months
0:47:33 > 0:47:37and I've been six months down the line and seen that growth generate,
0:47:37 > 0:47:39and the way that doors are opening at the moment...
0:47:39 > 0:47:40So give me numbers going forward.
0:47:40 > 0:47:45Year two, I'm projecting sales of 20,000 bottles.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48That will generate 640 turnover.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51Year three, looking at 40,000 bottles,
0:47:51 > 0:47:53that'll be the 1.28 million.
0:47:54 > 0:47:56That's great numbers. What's your plan?
0:47:56 > 0:47:59How are you going to achieve these numbers
0:47:59 > 0:48:01in a really busy marketplace?
0:48:01 > 0:48:04Because that's what it has to do to reach your valuation.
0:48:04 > 0:48:06Because it's creating a brand,
0:48:06 > 0:48:09so I've got other products already lined up to go behind the brand.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12I'll have the restaurant, the house itself, for wedding venues.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14So I've just created our own tartan for the house,
0:48:14 > 0:48:16and then there's the spirit business.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22Stuart, you're going to be pulled from all directions.
0:48:23 > 0:48:27Trying to get planning for the house, sorting out the restaurant.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30You might have a couple of hours on this during the week.
0:48:30 > 0:48:32I'm-I'm really, really worried.
0:48:36 > 0:48:38While Touker Suleyman is concerned
0:48:38 > 0:48:41Stuart's biting off more than he can chew,
0:48:41 > 0:48:44Peter Jones is wondering whether those expansion plans
0:48:44 > 0:48:48could present a lucrative opportunity for an investor.
0:48:50 > 0:48:52- Stuart, how much was the house? - 650,000.
0:48:52 > 0:48:54So let's talk about that, then.
0:48:54 > 0:48:57This business is based around the House Of Elrick,
0:48:57 > 0:48:58a lovely back story.
0:48:58 > 0:49:02Owning part of the house, why would you not come in and pitch that?
0:49:03 > 0:49:06Or are you willing to talk about that?
0:49:06 > 0:49:09I'm willing to talk about that, but I think if I add that in,
0:49:09 > 0:49:12that's obviously an increase in what we need for investment.
0:49:13 > 0:49:15That makes much more sense to me, if you're happy with that,
0:49:15 > 0:49:17because then you're in the House Of Elrick,
0:49:17 > 0:49:19it's the whole business.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22And where were you going to raise the extra money to build all this?
0:49:22 > 0:49:24I've no idea. Don't know.
0:49:26 > 0:49:28That's why I'm just doing what I can afford now,
0:49:28 > 0:49:31cos I've managed to do this one under my own salary so far.
0:49:31 > 0:49:33And what do you do, what's your day job?
0:49:33 > 0:49:37Contracts engineer, oil and gas industry. Has been for 17 years.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40And you do this at evenings and weekends?
0:49:40 > 0:49:42Evenings, weekends, lunchtimes.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47Stuart? I am a gin and tonic fan.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50I have about 36 on my bar at home.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54So it's a massive vision, what you have.
0:49:54 > 0:49:56Which I laud you for, you know,
0:49:56 > 0:49:58I kind of get all the pieces of the puzzle.
0:49:58 > 0:50:01Then on the other side of the coin, I'm thinking,
0:50:01 > 0:50:05"Crikey, how are you going to do all this as well as do your day job?"
0:50:05 > 0:50:07Where's the flip point of you stop being your engineer
0:50:07 > 0:50:09and you put all of you into...?
0:50:09 > 0:50:11Probably at the end of this year, I would imagine.
0:50:11 > 0:50:13So getting this thing moving fast
0:50:13 > 0:50:16and generating the cash is the tipping point for you...
0:50:16 > 0:50:18- Correct.- ..to then leave your engineering job
0:50:18 > 0:50:21- and focus in all your energies on this?- Yes.
0:50:23 > 0:50:24You mentioned a restaurant.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27How big will this restaurant be and what sort of restaurant?
0:50:27 > 0:50:30I would like to target rosettes, getting on to Michelin star,
0:50:30 > 0:50:33we want to be a sustainable field-to-fork restaurant
0:50:33 > 0:50:36using what's grown on the land, in the restaurant.
0:50:37 > 0:50:39- Restaurant business is hard as well. - Extremely hard.
0:50:39 > 0:50:41A lot of hard yards ahead of you.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46A reality check from Jenny Campbell,
0:50:46 > 0:50:49who can see tough times on the horizon.
0:50:50 > 0:50:55Could Tej Lalvani be tempted to add the gin business to his portfolio?
0:50:57 > 0:51:00Stuart, I like the taste.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02I've not invested in any drinks companies as yet,
0:51:02 > 0:51:04so I was quite excited when you came with this product.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07When I saw the packaging, the presentation
0:51:07 > 0:51:10and what you've achieved in six months, it's quite remarkable.
0:51:14 > 0:51:17But I think I'm hesitating a little bit.
0:51:19 > 0:51:23Because...you're not at that stage yet
0:51:23 > 0:51:25where you've built enough momentum.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29If you were a year down the line, two years down the line,
0:51:29 > 0:51:31and I could see a good month-on-month growth...
0:51:33 > 0:51:36But to take a risk at this stage, with so little,
0:51:36 > 0:51:38is going to be a challenge for me.
0:51:38 > 0:51:41So I wish you all the luck.
0:51:41 > 0:51:42But, sadly, I'm out.
0:51:45 > 0:51:47Tej Lalvani is the first Dragon out,
0:51:47 > 0:51:52unwilling to back a start-up without concrete signs of potential.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55And it looks like Deborah Meaden's come to a decision
0:51:55 > 0:51:59on whether to give the gin company a shot at success.
0:52:02 > 0:52:03For me...
0:52:06 > 0:52:08..you've made a mistake.
0:52:10 > 0:52:13- OK.- And it's not in the product.
0:52:16 > 0:52:18I would not be exaggerating
0:52:18 > 0:52:21if I said to you that, in the last month,
0:52:21 > 0:52:25I'd probably had four gin companies asking me
0:52:25 > 0:52:28if I would get involved in their business.
0:52:28 > 0:52:31But I have got to tell you, not one of them
0:52:31 > 0:52:36has dared come up with a valuation of over £1 million.
0:52:39 > 0:52:43For me, I haven't heard any indicator
0:52:43 > 0:52:46that it's going to make that leap from small craft gin
0:52:46 > 0:52:49to something that is going to be worth 1.3 million.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55I'm really sorry, but I'm out.
0:52:58 > 0:53:01You have done a good job. You have got a dream.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05However, if you go into too many dreams at the same time,
0:53:05 > 0:53:07you might have a nightmare.
0:53:09 > 0:53:14And I'm concerned at the amount of time you'll put into it now
0:53:14 > 0:53:16while you still have to work.
0:53:18 > 0:53:20I'm not going to invest today, and I'm out.
0:53:24 > 0:53:26The pitch is on the rocks,
0:53:26 > 0:53:30as Touker Suleyman becomes Dragon number three to ditch the deal.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34But Peter Jones is still in play,
0:53:34 > 0:53:36and it seems he's keen to shake things up a bit.
0:53:38 > 0:53:40The more I drink, the more interested I get.
0:53:40 > 0:53:43THEY LAUGH
0:53:43 > 0:53:45But you pitched the House Of Elrick.
0:53:45 > 0:53:48And you pitched the Bonnie Prince Charlie, and it's all a good story.
0:53:50 > 0:53:53But then, when you say, "I've got a property which is 650,000."
0:53:59 > 0:54:01To me, it goes together as one.
0:54:03 > 0:54:05You were potentially willing to discuss that,
0:54:05 > 0:54:08cos you see the whole vision and the big package.
0:54:09 > 0:54:13So, on that basis, I'm going to make it difficult and make you an offer.
0:54:14 > 0:54:15OK!
0:54:16 > 0:54:19I'm going to offer you all of the money, 80,000.
0:54:21 > 0:54:23For 10%.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28But the 10% includes the property, includes the business.
0:54:28 > 0:54:30Yes, including the restaurant and everything?
0:54:30 > 0:54:33Well, as the restaurant is built out, I'll also invest 10%,
0:54:33 > 0:54:36whatever the cost is of that. But I'll own 10% of everything.
0:54:37 > 0:54:39- OK.- And that's my offer to you.
0:54:43 > 0:54:44An offer, at last.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47But Peter Jones has upped the ante,
0:54:47 > 0:54:50looking for a 10% share of Stuart's complete brand.
0:54:52 > 0:54:56Will gin-lover Jenny Campbell serve up a rival bid?
0:54:58 > 0:55:01I've been musing over how to do this.
0:55:02 > 0:55:06And is it part of the whole thing or is it just part of the gin journey?
0:55:10 > 0:55:13My strategy for this business would be
0:55:13 > 0:55:16to get you churning out these bottles as fast as possible.
0:55:20 > 0:55:24The other stuff doesn't happen until this is driving enough cash.
0:55:27 > 0:55:31So I think where my offer would be, Stuart, is for all of the money...
0:55:34 > 0:55:36..for just the gin part of the business.
0:55:41 > 0:55:44But I would want 12% of your business.
0:55:46 > 0:55:47OK.
0:55:48 > 0:55:49Thank you for the offer.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55I'll take a minute, if that's all right.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57Shall I send you some gin over?
0:55:59 > 0:56:04It's a tricky decision, with two very different offers on the table.
0:56:04 > 0:56:09Jenny Campbell's £80,000 is for 12% of Stuart's gin company.
0:56:11 > 0:56:16While Peter Jones is seeking 10% of his brand from top to toe.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23OK, thank you for your time and your positive feedback.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30I have decided.
0:56:33 > 0:56:37- Think I'm going to accept Peter's offer.- Wow!
0:56:39 > 0:56:42- Well done.- I thought he would. - Fantastic!
0:56:42 > 0:56:45- Oh, well done.- Nothing ventured, nothing gained.- Awesome.
0:56:45 > 0:56:47- I'm so chuffed.- Thank you.
0:56:48 > 0:56:52It's happy hour for Peter Jones and for the gin man,
0:56:52 > 0:56:54who never lost his bottle in the Den.
0:56:56 > 0:56:57Congratulations, Peter.
0:56:57 > 0:57:00I need a stiff drink after that!
0:57:00 > 0:57:04- Well done, Peter.- Well, thank you. - Well done.- I am over the moon.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07I knew Peter was the guy for me.
0:57:07 > 0:57:09I think my business has potential to be one in a million.
0:57:09 > 0:57:11Having Peter on board,
0:57:11 > 0:57:14there is every likelihood that I could achieve that.
0:57:20 > 0:57:24One missed opportunity and two investments tonight,
0:57:24 > 0:57:26bringing an end to this series in the Den,
0:57:26 > 0:57:30in which we've welcomed two new fire-breathing Dragons
0:57:30 > 0:57:33and had a record number of investments.
0:57:33 > 0:57:37Along the way, we've encountered the innovative, the ingenious
0:57:37 > 0:57:39and the outright implausible.
0:57:40 > 0:57:42Please don't call me Debbie!
0:57:42 > 0:57:44- Oh!- Do I look like a naughty Dragon?
0:57:44 > 0:57:47- You've definitely got the waggle on. - It's all in the hips!
0:57:47 > 0:57:50I think it's only fair you're in there with me, Deborah.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53If you'd like to all go sit down, we'll just stay here.
0:57:53 > 0:57:57- Do a full job, Touker. - One of your legs looks alive!
0:57:57 > 0:57:59Jenny, you won with 620...
0:57:59 > 0:58:02We haven't finished yet, we don't finish until I've won.
0:58:04 > 0:58:06I don't get out of bed for 1%.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08- Have you heard of the sniff test? - No.
0:58:08 > 0:58:10Something doesn't smell right here.
0:58:10 > 0:58:12I actually think you're wasting everyone's time.
0:58:12 > 0:58:15- I'm exasperated. Are you hearing these words?- Yeah.
0:58:15 > 0:58:18- I have to say, this just isn't good enough.- Which bit.- All of it.
0:58:19 > 0:58:22- I need a drink. - Can I finish what I'm going to say?
0:58:22 > 0:58:24- Do I interrupt when you speak? - No, but...- Please?
0:58:26 > 0:58:29- I think you're very investable. - You've done a fantastic job.
0:58:29 > 0:58:32I'm the one Dragon that will take you to where you want to go.
0:58:32 > 0:58:35You are both a credit to female entrepreneurship.
0:58:35 > 0:58:38- They loved us, didn't they? - They did, yeah.
0:58:38 > 0:58:39The magic of Dragons' Den.