0:00:02 > 0:00:04The Dragons are back.
0:00:05 > 0:00:09And two new fire-breathers have been unleashed in the Den.
0:00:12 > 0:00:13They are...
0:00:13 > 0:00:17The former banker who sold a cashpoint company for a cool
0:00:17 > 0:00:19£50 million, Jenny Campbell...
0:00:21 > 0:00:25..and head of the UK's number one vitamin business -
0:00:25 > 0:00:27Tej Lalvani.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31They've already shown they're a financial force to be reckoned with.
0:00:31 > 0:00:32I would like to make you an offer.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34And business is booming.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36All of the money for 15%.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39- Tej?- Let's do it.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44Tonight, more entrepreneurs are under fire.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48How on earth did you get a £1 million valuation?
0:00:48 > 0:00:50Your margin is so bad.
0:00:50 > 0:00:52I've never seen a margin like this, ever.
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Warning shots are fired.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57How much money is now outstanding debt?
0:00:57 > 0:01:00Close to 400,000.
0:01:00 > 0:01:03You have no money to put where your mouth is.
0:01:03 > 0:01:05And battle lines are drawn.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08As one of the new Dragons, I come with a blank sheet of paper.
0:01:08 > 0:01:10- Excuse me.- It's my piece now.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12No, I'm defending my position.
0:01:13 > 0:01:18But has anyone got what it takes to leave the Den victorious?
0:01:18 > 0:01:19Both of you are very credible.
0:01:19 > 0:01:21There's a little bit of my heart doing this.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23I know that there's big potential.
0:01:25 > 0:01:26I am going to make you an offer.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01Welcome to Dragons' Den,
0:02:01 > 0:02:03where a selection of nervous entrepreneurs
0:02:03 > 0:02:07with big business dreams face the reality
0:02:07 > 0:02:10and the wrath of five multimillionaire investors.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13Some could go from pitch to rich,
0:02:13 > 0:02:16whilst others will leave the Den with nothing.
0:02:19 > 0:02:22First to try their luck tonight are siblings
0:02:22 > 0:02:25Ben and Harry Tucker from Somerset.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27I'm the older brother. I'm two years older.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30We're a bit like chalk and cheese, but that works really well.
0:02:30 > 0:02:32Yeah, we like to think.
0:02:32 > 0:02:33THEY LAUGH
0:02:36 > 0:02:41They're brimming with confidence about their range of repurposed products.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45I think it'll be a bit of a wow factor with the chair because it's cement.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47We're hoping it'll put a smile on their face,
0:02:47 > 0:02:49that's kind of what we like to do with our products.
0:02:59 > 0:03:02- Hello, I'm Ben.- And I'm Harry.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06We're both brothers, business partners and founders of Plane Industries.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09We're here today to ask for £80,000 in exchange for 10% of our business.
0:03:11 > 0:03:15At Plane, we take old scrap materials from aircraft and turn them into luxury
0:03:15 > 0:03:18furniture, stationery and luggage.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21Each piece has a fascinating back story attached to it,
0:03:21 > 0:03:23and for us it's about challenging and redefining our
0:03:23 > 0:03:26perceptions of the things we throw away.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28We make some pretty wacky stuff.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30We've turned bombs into drinks cabinets,
0:03:30 > 0:03:34exhaust nozzles into giant lamps and even windows into clocks.
0:03:34 > 0:03:35Here's an example of our chair.
0:03:35 > 0:03:39This is made from an engine cowling on aircraft and this retails for £19,000.
0:03:40 > 0:03:44We started four years ago on a farm in Wiltshire with about £3,000 in our back pocket.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47We now have five members of staff and we have turned over
0:03:47 > 0:03:50almost £500,000 since 2013.
0:03:50 > 0:03:55The stories attached to each and every item are the most important thing about what we do.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58We sell our bespoke furniture to very wealthy clients all around the world.
0:03:58 > 0:03:59We now want to scale the business,
0:03:59 > 0:04:02so we currently are making luxury luggage from the discarded seating
0:04:02 > 0:04:05fabric, coming in at a much more accessible price point.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08Soon, we're about to launch our stationery and homeware range.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12There's carves from the fuselage of all different types of aircraft.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14We'd love for you to join us on our journey.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17- Is it possible to have a look at some of the finishes?- By all means,
0:04:17 > 0:04:19and if you'd like to take a seat in the chair, feel free.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21- Let's have a look at that.- OK.- Yeah.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26It's a top-flight pitch from Ben and Harry Tucker, who are asking for
0:04:26 > 0:04:32£80,000 for a 10% share of their plane parts upcycling business.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34Do you know what? I can't resist getting in.
0:04:34 > 0:04:35Are you ready, guys?
0:04:35 > 0:04:38Would you like to all go and sit down? We'll just stay here for the rest.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40- Get ready for take off. - Round we go.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43- LAUGHTER - Woo!
0:04:43 > 0:04:45- Faster?- No.- No, slower.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47THEY LAUGH
0:04:47 > 0:04:50And once everyone's feet are firmly back on the ground,
0:04:50 > 0:04:54it's Tej Lalvani who's first in the pilot's seat.
0:04:59 > 0:05:00I actually love aviation.
0:05:00 > 0:05:05As a kid, I've always travelled on aeroplanes and I just enjoy the whole experience.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07What do the numbers look like over the last three years?
0:05:07 > 0:05:10In year one, we turned over £24,000.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12And we made a loss of £8,000.
0:05:12 > 0:05:18Year two, we had a turnover of £107,000 and £11,000 net profit.
0:05:19 > 0:05:23Year three, we turned over £85,000
0:05:23 > 0:05:26and we made a loss of £14,000.
0:05:26 > 0:05:31And in the last financial year, we've had a total turnover of £250,000,
0:05:31 > 0:05:33with a net that's expected to be anywhere between 60 and 70.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37So, just, what was the reason for the drop?
0:05:37 > 0:05:39So, every time we had a drop,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43it was generally when we kind of went back and designed the new product lines
0:05:43 > 0:05:46and we spent a huge amount of time trying to figure out how
0:05:46 > 0:05:47everything can be scaled.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53How do you source your materials in your base products then?
0:05:53 > 0:05:54So, when we had the idea,
0:05:54 > 0:05:58we went and met up at a big aircraft dismantling yard.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01And they break on average about 55 to 60 aircraft a year
0:06:01 > 0:06:04and they also sell all the parts, so that's where we get our parts from.
0:06:04 > 0:06:08So they break them and you've come along and said, "Oh, we'll have this bit and this bit and this bit."
0:06:08 > 0:06:11Yeah, that's how it started. And the reason why we're doing the luggage
0:06:11 > 0:06:15is because the seating fabric is quite a big problem in the industry to get rid of
0:06:15 > 0:06:17because it's fire retardant, so loads and loads of it,
0:06:17 > 0:06:20unfortunately, goes to landfill.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23So the company we're working with, they'll ship it to us all free of charge.
0:06:25 > 0:06:27This is some of the examples of the bags.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32The brothers have revealed strong upcycling credentials, and now
0:06:32 > 0:06:37eco-conscious Deborah Meaden is keen to find out more about their business model.
0:06:40 > 0:06:42Where are you finding your customers?
0:06:42 > 0:06:44So, primarily it's all online.
0:06:44 > 0:06:47And what we find is every time we launch what we call, kind of,
0:06:47 > 0:06:49a halo product, which we try and do once a year,
0:06:49 > 0:06:53it kind of booms online and then we kind of get a lot of organic traffic.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56So they come in via that product?
0:06:56 > 0:06:58- Yes.- And then they end up buying into the whole story of these?
0:06:58 > 0:07:02- Yeah.- And how long does that take you to build?
0:07:02 > 0:07:04So, they take about, um, four months.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08How much does that cost you to make?
0:07:08 > 0:07:09About £7,000.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11- Including your time?- Including our time.- Yeah.- That's good.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16Deborah Meaden is impressed that their first-class products come with
0:07:16 > 0:07:18economy costs.
0:07:18 > 0:07:22Can their run as Den high-flyers continue
0:07:22 > 0:07:23under Peter Jones's questioning?
0:07:25 > 0:07:29You've got your hero product, and you can see that, you know, Deborah and I liked it.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32Not just the aesthetic look, we enjoyed being in there actually, I think,
0:07:32 > 0:07:35- if we were honest with each other. - LAUGHTER
0:07:35 > 0:07:39- But...- Do you want to challenge that?- I don't, actually, no.
0:07:39 > 0:07:40I have to go along with it.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42THEY LAUGH
0:07:42 > 0:07:45But I have a genuine issue with the quality of the bag.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49OK.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52I think it's really substandard and quite poor quality.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57- You've started to introduce products that aren't good enough.- Mmm.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01I'd have to argue with regards to quality, the actual feel and touch of it,
0:08:01 > 0:08:03cos we tested them for a year and they're...
0:08:03 > 0:08:06You do, but even feel, look, the zip.
0:08:06 > 0:08:07It just feels, it doesn't...
0:08:07 > 0:08:09And then you've got the story inside.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12- Yeah.- Yeah.- "Feet in the air."
0:08:12 > 0:08:15- You've just put 36,000.- Yeah.
0:08:15 > 0:08:16What does that mean?
0:08:17 > 0:08:21Well, it means that during its life span it would have travelled at 36,000 feet in the air.
0:08:21 > 0:08:22Well, it might have travelled at 37.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Yeah, no, so that's something that we're also still working on, is kind of...
0:08:26 > 0:08:29We appreciate that the really important part about this is the storytelling.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32My very point is that you haven't given the story.
0:08:33 > 0:08:38And it does look like a 1960s British Midland aircraft cover.
0:08:38 > 0:08:42But the reason why we've actually used that fabric to start with is because we thought
0:08:42 > 0:08:44"Let's use the worst looking fabric we could possibly take off any
0:08:44 > 0:08:47"of the aircraft and see if we could turn it into a beautiful product."
0:08:47 > 0:08:49Well, I think that's good, because you definitely failed.
0:08:51 > 0:08:52OK.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57Some mid-pitch turbulence, as the range of cases failed to
0:08:57 > 0:08:59take off with Peter Jones.
0:09:00 > 0:09:05And now fashion magnate Touker Suleyman is ready to provide his expert insight
0:09:05 > 0:09:07into the market for the luggage.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13Guys, what are you doing?
0:09:15 > 0:09:18- I think you will struggle with bags. - With bags, OK.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20And if you're relying on the bag business...
0:09:22 > 0:09:23..I think you could have a problem.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30The reason why we did the bags is mainly because there's so much
0:09:30 > 0:09:32material and there's such a problem there.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34We kind of thought, "What could we do with this problem?"
0:09:34 > 0:09:36And that kind of led us down the route of the bags.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38But the problem you're trying to solve...
0:09:39 > 0:09:42..is going to take your business backwards.
0:09:44 > 0:09:48I would have thought you're better off doing amazing products
0:09:48 > 0:09:50- and charging double.- Yeah.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53Cos the person that wants to buy that will pay 50,000,
0:09:53 > 0:09:54if they really want to buy it.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58I love the hero products.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01I know that there's big potential on furniture.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05But your business at the moment...
0:10:06 > 0:10:08- ..is small.- Yeah.
0:10:08 > 0:10:12I mean, you've got a great product, but it's going to take a lot of time.
0:10:12 > 0:10:13Yeah. It's not quick.
0:10:15 > 0:10:16And for that reason...
0:10:18 > 0:10:19..I'm out.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24Touker Suleyman is the first Dragon out,
0:10:24 > 0:10:29rejecting a deal over concerns about the entrepreneur's business strategy.
0:10:30 > 0:10:35And now, plane enthusiast Tej Lalvani has some concerns about whether the
0:10:35 > 0:10:38pair's designs are truly top-flight.
0:10:41 > 0:10:46You guys are very creative and you've created some nice products.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48But actually, the home furnishings you've got there,
0:10:48 > 0:10:51you can't really tell it's from an aeroplane or aviation-related.
0:10:52 > 0:10:55If I'm paying a premium to get those items,
0:10:55 > 0:10:57I want it to be able to say what it is.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Well, that's where the branding comes in.
0:10:59 > 0:11:00So, kind of, when you open it up,
0:11:00 > 0:11:03you'll kind of find all the information about what it used to be.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07No, but even on that, there's no logo on the item on top.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09There will be. That's just the prototype.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12It's very hard to get those details in the very first prototype.
0:11:12 > 0:11:14But that should have been your primary purpose.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Whatever you're designing should directly tell you, like...
0:11:17 > 0:11:20- Obviously you can't miss that. - Absolutely.- You know straightaway it's from an aeroplane.
0:11:20 > 0:11:22An engine. But those small items, I think,
0:11:22 > 0:11:26it's just that you're spending all that time doing it and creating it and it doesn't
0:11:26 > 0:11:28visually tell you it's from an aircraft.
0:11:29 > 0:11:30Erm...
0:11:30 > 0:11:33Sadly, it's not something for me, so I'm out.
0:11:33 > 0:11:34OK, thank you.
0:11:36 > 0:11:37Let me tell you where I am.
0:11:37 > 0:11:39That item is wonderful.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41Now, has that got the provenance on it somewhere?
0:11:41 > 0:11:45- It can do, cos...- No, no, you keep saying, "Can do, we're doing that,
0:11:45 > 0:11:47"we're developing this", and so on and so forth.
0:11:47 > 0:11:50So, I'm disappointed where you're at in four years.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54There's too much that you're still thinking about, and to come in here
0:11:54 > 0:11:58and say your business is worth 800,000 is poppycock at this stage.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03So, I'm out.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12Two more Dragons exit the deal in quick succession -
0:12:12 > 0:12:18both unhappy that the stories of the plane-part products are not clearly on display.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23Will Deborah Meaden get on board with the aircraft reclaimers?
0:12:25 > 0:12:29You won't be surprised to hear that everything you're doing I absolutely love,
0:12:29 > 0:12:31because I like the sentiment behind it,
0:12:31 > 0:12:35I get the sense that you really care about it as well, and I absolutely love that.
0:12:38 > 0:12:40That could lead to an investment from me.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46My thing is...
0:12:48 > 0:12:51..I urge you to focus on that.
0:12:53 > 0:12:57We didn't plough all our efforts into that, because we knew that we wanted to
0:12:57 > 0:13:02diversify and that's why we've been working on this line since September last year.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06So, if this continues to grow and we get continuous orders, that's fine, but...
0:13:06 > 0:13:12Don't put more time into it, because your business is telling you something.
0:13:12 > 0:13:13And you need to listen to it.
0:13:13 > 0:13:16Your business is telling you that's where the money is.
0:13:19 > 0:13:24But I don't personally think that this business is going to get huge.
0:13:29 > 0:13:31- I won't be investing, I'm out. - Thank you for your time. Thank you.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37Despite connecting with Ben and Harry's business ethos,
0:13:37 > 0:13:41Deborah Meaden does not see enough financial potential to invest,
0:13:41 > 0:13:47and now only Peter Jones remains to salvage the siblings' pitch.
0:13:47 > 0:13:49Typically, how long would that take to put together?
0:13:49 > 0:13:52- An hour.- I would say, yeah, a couple, a few hours.
0:13:57 > 0:13:59- Well, Harry and Ben...- Yeah.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02..I'm going to make you an offer.
0:14:02 > 0:14:03- Great. - HE LAUGHS
0:14:08 > 0:14:12I'm going to offer you £10,000 for that so you don't have to take it home with you.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18- That one's actually sold to a client.- That's actually sold. - THEY LAUGH
0:14:18 > 0:14:21- That's going to...- That's going to Holland.
0:14:21 > 0:14:22But we're happy to make you one.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26So, is that a deal you're accepting?
0:14:26 > 0:14:29Well, it has to go a bit more. We work on a 50% margin. It literally costs us...
0:14:29 > 0:14:33Well, it costs us seven, doesn't it? Just over 50. But we sell them for 19.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36And we'll make it bespoke, as well, so the colour you want, the interior you want.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38Engraved with his name on the top.
0:14:38 > 0:14:39If you want it.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41- OK. Done.- OK.
0:14:41 > 0:14:44LAUGHTER
0:14:44 > 0:14:46- Thank you very much.- Thank you.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49And then, guys,
0:14:49 > 0:14:52I think that for me sums up what I believe and see in the business.
0:14:52 > 0:14:55I love the product, obviously, that's why I've offered to buy one.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58But I don't believe in the business direction you're going in.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01And that's the only reason why I'm out.
0:15:07 > 0:15:10So, Peter Jones has shaken hands on a sale.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13So, erm, what colour are you having, Peter?
0:15:13 > 0:15:15- That's lovely.- I quite like that.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18Make sure you have your name, the aircraft, the whole thing.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22The brothers have acquired a Dragon client,
0:15:22 > 0:15:26but they leave without landing the deal they were hoping for.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28It's kind of mixed emotions.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31- Yeah.- There were some really valid points there as well that we'll take on board.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34- Yeah.- And we sold a chair to Peter, so that's cool. - HARRY LAUGHS
0:15:44 > 0:15:48The next duo into the Den are Mike and Zina Dean,
0:15:48 > 0:15:50who are hoping to keep their hound at heel.
0:15:50 > 0:15:51Good luck.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56They're risking everything to make their doggy product the best in show.
0:15:56 > 0:15:57We decided go big or go home.
0:15:57 > 0:16:02So, we sold the house, we explained to the kids we're going on an exciting journey and, erm...
0:16:02 > 0:16:03And we took it from there.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08We took the decision that, you know, "Do we believe in it or not?"
0:16:08 > 0:16:13- We do.- Yes, we do.- So, you know, it'd be crazy if we didn't back ourselves.
0:16:13 > 0:16:14And here we are.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19With everything on the line,
0:16:19 > 0:16:23Mike and Zina are hoping their idea will snare a Dragon
0:16:23 > 0:16:25and secure an investment.
0:16:28 > 0:16:33Hello. We're Mike and Zina Dean and we're here today to ask for
0:16:33 > 0:16:37£50,000 investment for a 5% equity stake in our business Huxley Hound.
0:16:37 > 0:16:42Creator of Better Than Raw, the world's first range of fully traceable,
0:16:42 > 0:16:44organic vegetable treats for dogs.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47Ever since our dog, Huxley, and his brother, Rollo, came to live with us,
0:16:47 > 0:16:51we've taken a keen interest in healthy nutrition, and after a lot of research,
0:16:51 > 0:16:54I decided to raw-feed the boys and found the choice in the
0:16:54 > 0:16:58market was vast, a lot of information and choice of different products,
0:16:58 > 0:17:00but we found it wasn't the same for dog treats.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04So, not deterred, I decided if I can't buy them, I'll make them.
0:17:04 > 0:17:07So, I hit the kitchen and, armed with all manner of ingredients and
0:17:07 > 0:17:10equipment, I went into development mode.
0:17:10 > 0:17:14And then we took it to a very comprehensive taste test -
0:17:14 > 0:17:18650 different dogs, 72 different breeds across the whole country.
0:17:18 > 0:17:20The thing is, you may know,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24dogs don't get any minerals or nutrients from a raw vegetable.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26Basically, all of this is bound up in the cellulose,
0:17:26 > 0:17:28which they're physically incapable of breaking down.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32However, our dehydration process naturally compresses the vegetable
0:17:32 > 0:17:34and pushes those nutrients to the surface.
0:17:34 > 0:17:37The end result being that dogs get vitamins and minerals from our treats
0:17:37 > 0:17:39that they don't get from a raw vegetable.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41They literally are better than raw.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44So, we launched the trade in January of this year.
0:17:44 > 0:17:46We quickly secured a trial listing with Fetch,
0:17:46 > 0:17:49the online pet store from Ocado.
0:17:49 > 0:17:50And following encouraging sales,
0:17:50 > 0:17:53they've just expanded their listing and they now carry our entire range.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57We're very proud of our products and we have some samples that we'll be
0:17:57 > 0:17:59able to give out to you, and thank you for listening.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07A confident pitch from husband-and-wife team Mike and Zina Dean.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10Aided of course by Huxley the hound.
0:18:10 > 0:18:16They are hoping to tempt the Dragons with a 5% stake in their raw dog food business
0:18:16 > 0:18:18in return for £50,000.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20- Bye, Huxley. - SHE LAUGHS
0:18:20 > 0:18:24As Huxley takes a break from executive life, owner of three dogs
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Deborah Meaden is first to take the lead.
0:18:29 > 0:18:34OK. So, when did you start and what was your turnover in the first year?
0:18:34 > 0:18:36So, we haven't yet filed a full set of accounts.
0:18:36 > 0:18:37OK, so you're brand-new.
0:18:37 > 0:18:41Exactly. So, we started trading in January.
0:18:41 > 0:18:43- Ah, OK.- Selling to trade.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47However, we funded this business through the sale of the family home.
0:18:48 > 0:18:53So, we've been spending money for a year and basically getting the products right.
0:18:53 > 0:18:54We've just taken them to market.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58- OK, so you're starting with a loss of...- 150,000.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01OK. And so far, to date, what's your turnover been?
0:19:03 > 0:19:05Um, it's just under, I think, 8,000.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09OK. So it's very, very early days.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11- Yes.- And where are they made?
0:19:11 > 0:19:13- We make them in Surrey. - You physically make them?
0:19:13 > 0:19:15- From your...- That's right.
0:19:15 > 0:19:16- So, the...- ..house?
0:19:16 > 0:19:19- Is your house full of dried carrots and...?- No, no, we've got a...
0:19:19 > 0:19:23It was. No, we've got a factory on an industrial unit in Surrey.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25- Oh, right. Excellent. - So, we were joking earlier,
0:19:25 > 0:19:27saying this is the most time we've spent together in weeks, cos I...
0:19:27 > 0:19:30- Oh, really?- I literally have a camp bed in the corner.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34- You said you sold your own house. - Mmm.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36- Where are you living now? - Rented house.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39- Yes.- We basically said to the kids, "Look, guys,
0:19:39 > 0:19:43"Mum and Dad have gone slightly mad, we're going on a three-year journey."
0:19:43 > 0:19:47You know, we've got an idea, we think it's a brilliant idea, but, you know,
0:19:47 > 0:19:51I'm famous in my previous life for telling my clients, "Go big or go home."
0:19:53 > 0:19:55- Were you a gambler?- No, not at all.
0:19:55 > 0:19:56No, I was a head-hunter.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59But I spent about 20 years as a head-hunter working with banks
0:19:59 > 0:20:01and management consulting firms.
0:20:04 > 0:20:09A convincing display of entrepreneurial spirit from Mike and Zina, as they
0:20:09 > 0:20:14reveal just how much they've risked to get their products to market.
0:20:14 > 0:20:19Now the Dragon who is top dog of a £300 million vitamin business wants
0:20:19 > 0:20:22to get a handle on Huxley's competition.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27I like the space. I think it's interesting, it's a growing market.
0:20:27 > 0:20:31Funnily enough, we just launched a range of vitamins for dogs.
0:20:31 > 0:20:35And dog owners are definitely finding a lot of interest in investing in
0:20:35 > 0:20:37healthier snacks and products.
0:20:37 > 0:20:41Are there any competitors? Do other companies offer healthy treats?
0:20:41 > 0:20:43What are the options on the market?
0:20:43 > 0:20:47So there are only three products that I'm aware of that are available
0:20:47 > 0:20:49in the UK, which are vegetable treats,
0:20:49 > 0:20:53there's only one that's an identical product, and that's not organic
0:20:53 > 0:20:55and it's made in Vietnam.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57I was at Crufts this year, as I am every year.
0:20:57 > 0:21:00So I'm pretty well into my dogs.
0:21:00 > 0:21:04And you're right, there is a massive market in pets and dogs' and cats',
0:21:04 > 0:21:08and so on, treats. They were everywhere at Crufts.
0:21:08 > 0:21:13You said in your pitch that you have tested this on 72 different breeds, 650 dogs.
0:21:13 > 0:21:15Can you just tell me a bit more about that research you did and what
0:21:15 > 0:21:18- questions did you ask? - Well, we based it on social media.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20And just said, "We just want your feedback."
0:21:20 > 0:21:22And it was pretty remarkable, actually.
0:21:22 > 0:21:25With people posting pictures saying, "When are you going to be online?
0:21:25 > 0:21:27"When are the full packets available?"
0:21:27 > 0:21:29But, you know, with the number of reorders that we're getting,
0:21:29 > 0:21:32the number of stockists that are reordering, you know,
0:21:32 > 0:21:35when people like them, they really, really like them.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40Mike and Zina's confidence in their product's ability to attract customers
0:21:40 > 0:21:43has gone down well with owner of two dogs Jenny Campbell.
0:21:44 > 0:21:49Now Peter Jones wants to broach the subject of their packaging.
0:21:52 > 0:21:53I really do like your branding.
0:21:53 > 0:21:56- It's...- Oh, thank you.- I think it really... It just says what it is.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59Can I just pick up on that, cos I'm really interested in that?
0:21:59 > 0:22:01See, I'm not sure I do like the branding.
0:22:03 > 0:22:05Doesn't say it's dog treats for a start.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08But I think the thing that you're selling is the fact that this is
0:22:08 > 0:22:10- more digestible.- Yes.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12Where do you tell me that?
0:22:14 > 0:22:18So there is a second phase of packaging, if you like,
0:22:18 > 0:22:22which is what part of the investment is required for.
0:22:22 > 0:22:23We have images there...
0:22:23 > 0:22:25- Can I look at that? - Of course you can.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27Cos I think this is a totally missed...
0:22:27 > 0:22:28It doesn't even say it's a treat.
0:22:30 > 0:22:32There we go.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36The story doesn't come out of this package, does it?
0:22:40 > 0:22:44Right, so you've bought... The Better Than Raw has now come up higher.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46Does that still explain why?
0:22:47 > 0:22:49Er...
0:22:49 > 0:22:51I mean, is there anywhere here that tells me why...?
0:22:51 > 0:22:54I think it's on the back of the packaging.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56It still doesn't say treat on it.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59OK.
0:23:02 > 0:23:03No.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08The entrepreneurs' failure to recognise that the devil's in the detail
0:23:08 > 0:23:10doesn't go down well with Deborah Meaden.
0:23:12 > 0:23:16And Touker Suleyman wants to question the price tag they've attached to
0:23:16 > 0:23:17their fledgling business.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22- You've got a valuation of a million. - Mm-hm.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24You've turned over 8,000.
0:23:24 > 0:23:28- So you must have a pretty good idea what you're going to turn over next month.- Yeah.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Where's that business going to come from?
0:23:31 > 0:23:34It's going to come from a combination of repeat orders of our
0:23:34 > 0:23:37existing stockists. But this is pretty small beer.
0:23:37 > 0:23:42- But...- But it's the wholesalers... - But, Mike, you come in here saying it's small beer,
0:23:42 > 0:23:45but you're asking for £1 million valuation.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50We've taken opinion on this from a number of people and the feedback...
0:23:50 > 0:23:51From Huxley?
0:23:51 > 0:23:54The opinion came from Huxley.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56He's clever, but he can't speak, unfortunately.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59So the valuation is based on looking at deals that have been done in the
0:23:59 > 0:24:02pet sector. We've got a fully developed product range.
0:24:02 > 0:24:05We've got science, we've got packaging, we've got a brand.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08It is... It is right at the start here, absolutely right at the start.
0:24:08 > 0:24:13So you're telling me that I'm going to value it today at £1 million,
0:24:13 > 0:24:16that in five years' time it might come to that?
0:24:16 > 0:24:20I mean, how on earth did you get £1 million valuation?
0:24:20 > 0:24:24Crazy. And for that reason, I'm not going to invest and I'm out.
0:24:26 > 0:24:30A damning assessment of the entrepreneurs, as Touker Suleyman deems their
0:24:30 > 0:24:34price tag to be massively overinflated,
0:24:34 > 0:24:37and he's first to count himself out.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40But a Dragon who's no stranger to the dog treat market has an
0:24:40 > 0:24:43altogether different concern.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45I've been exactly in this space.
0:24:45 > 0:24:49I'm not in it now, so I have no conflict of interest,
0:24:49 > 0:24:52but I invested in a business, in here, in the Den,
0:24:52 > 0:24:55that absolutely concentrated on nutritious treats.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00Boy, is this a hard market!
0:25:02 > 0:25:05There is so much competition for the space that you're looking for.
0:25:05 > 0:25:09It takes a lot of money to get there, and we're a success story, you know?
0:25:11 > 0:25:13I'm really sorry, I won't be investing.
0:25:13 > 0:25:15- Fair enough. Thank you. - I'm out.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20The fact that Deborah has just said that
0:25:20 > 0:25:24has just taken any wind that I did have in the business away.
0:25:25 > 0:25:30There's nothing more important than an investor that's been there and
0:25:30 > 0:25:33gone through that experience and yet wouldn't do it again in the exact
0:25:33 > 0:25:37same marketplace. So I have to take that in.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40- OK.- And...
0:25:40 > 0:25:43I hope it works for you, but it's not an investment for me and I'm out.
0:25:45 > 0:25:50Disaster for the duo as doubts that the business has legs has led to two
0:25:50 > 0:25:54of the Den's longest serving Dragons turning their heels on a deal.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59Will Tej Lalvani be the fourth investor to bow out?
0:26:01 > 0:26:03When you guys walked in with this and talked about the product,
0:26:03 > 0:26:07I thought it was a good idea and something...
0:26:07 > 0:26:09something that would work.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14But the £1 million valuation is huge.
0:26:16 > 0:26:21I feel that £50,000 won't be enough to get where you need to.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24You'll need more money and I think that in year two,
0:26:24 > 0:26:26I'll be putting another 50,000, and year three...
0:26:28 > 0:26:30However...
0:26:33 > 0:26:36..it's something that I think I could tag on
0:26:36 > 0:26:39to my nutrition supplements.
0:26:39 > 0:26:41And get the distribution.
0:26:44 > 0:26:45So, I am going to make you an offer.
0:26:53 > 0:26:54But I'd have to come in...
0:26:57 > 0:26:59..at 30% for 50,000.
0:27:01 > 0:27:02That's my offer.
0:27:04 > 0:27:06OK, thank you.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10Finally, a bid.
0:27:10 > 0:27:14Pledging both the cash and the chance to align the business to
0:27:14 > 0:27:18Tej Lalvani's multi-million pound health empire.
0:27:18 > 0:27:22But at 25% more equity than they wanted to give away,
0:27:22 > 0:27:26now only Jenny Campbell can throw them a more lucrative bone.
0:27:31 > 0:27:33I think the journey is
0:27:33 > 0:27:35a real credit to you.
0:27:35 > 0:27:40But I also see when you get the branding right, the story right around brands,
0:27:40 > 0:27:42people buy that.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45And people do like to pamper their pooches.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49So, you know, I think there is some mileage in it.
0:27:49 > 0:27:50I don't doubt that it's hard,
0:27:50 > 0:27:54but I tend to think every story is different as well.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56And I think both of you are very credible.
0:28:00 > 0:28:02So I am going to make you an offer.
0:28:04 > 0:28:07I'm going to offer you all of the money.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11But I would want 15%.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15- OK.- OK.- Thank you.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18Thank you. Can we do our back of the room...?
0:28:18 > 0:28:19Sure.
0:28:21 > 0:28:24The Den's newest Dragons battle it out,
0:28:24 > 0:28:27as Jenny Campbell's offer of 15%
0:28:27 > 0:28:31slashes in half Tej Lalvani's bid of 30.
0:28:31 > 0:28:36But his outstanding record in the marketplace makes this a tough decision
0:28:36 > 0:28:41for Mike and Zena, who've gambled so much to get the business off the ground.
0:28:42 > 0:28:43- Right.- OK.
0:28:44 > 0:28:45Right.
0:28:48 > 0:28:51Thank you very much, and thank you, all, for listening,
0:28:51 > 0:28:52you've made some very good points.
0:28:55 > 0:28:58Jenny, we'd be delighted to accept your offer.
0:28:58 > 0:29:00- Thank you.- Hey, well done.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02- Thank you.- Brilliant.
0:29:02 > 0:29:04- Really brilliant.- A deal struck.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08- Well done.- Thank you.
0:29:08 > 0:29:09- Think you very much, thank you. - Well done.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11- Great job.- Well done.
0:29:11 > 0:29:15The dog-loving entrepreneurs leave the Den with a Dragon partner with
0:29:15 > 0:29:17the perfect pedigree.
0:29:18 > 0:29:20Well done.
0:29:20 > 0:29:21Well done.
0:29:23 > 0:29:25That was a treat in itself.
0:29:25 > 0:29:28- Thank you.- I didn't know whether to kiss her.
0:29:28 > 0:29:29I didn't, it was one of those, cos...
0:29:29 > 0:29:31All right, it's only 50 grand.
0:29:31 > 0:29:32SHE LAUGHS
0:29:38 > 0:29:42With one Dragon already investing £50,000...
0:29:42 > 0:29:44- Brilliant.- Really pleased. - Thank you.
0:29:44 > 0:29:48..for the remaining entrepreneurs, the numbers will have to add up.
0:29:48 > 0:29:53You bought something, you got keys to the door, but it wasn't all well,
0:29:53 > 0:29:55was it, when you lifted the carpet?
0:29:55 > 0:29:58There are too many skeletons in the cupboard.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01- It's like a payday loan, isn't it? - I don't like things like this.
0:30:01 > 0:30:04But will they manage to tame a Dragon?
0:30:04 > 0:30:07I like what I see here. I like what I see here in you two, as well.
0:30:07 > 0:30:09I'm going to make you an offer.
0:30:15 > 0:30:20Next into the Den are Somerset-based business owner William Pryor...
0:30:20 > 0:30:24- This is the right way round. - ..and his Chief Executive Officer,
0:30:24 > 0:30:2625-year-old Fenna Leake.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28It's green. After you.
0:30:29 > 0:30:33I've had 40 years on and off in the book trade.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36- But Fenna is the boss. - But technically it's William.
0:30:38 > 0:30:42They're bound together by their passion for the company.
0:30:42 > 0:30:47What excites me is that it's a combination of a very old technology,
0:30:47 > 0:30:50the book, with a very new technology, the internet.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53So it's a fantastic meeting of ancient and modern.
0:30:55 > 0:30:56- Just like us.- Just like...
0:30:56 > 0:30:58THEY LAUGH
0:30:58 > 0:30:59Breathe in.
0:31:01 > 0:31:02We are doing it.
0:31:02 > 0:31:07Will the Den be the start of a new chapter for the unique duo?
0:31:11 > 0:31:13Hello, Dragons.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16I'm Fenna Leake, CEO of Bookbarn International Limited.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18And I'm William Pryor, the chairman.
0:31:18 > 0:31:23Bookbarn International is primarily an internet business that sells used
0:31:23 > 0:31:24books on a grand scale.
0:31:24 > 0:31:31We acquired the business in January 2013 as a turnaround project.
0:31:31 > 0:31:32It's now profitable,
0:31:32 > 0:31:38so we're here today to offer you the opportunity to invest £100,000 for
0:31:38 > 0:31:4110% of our business, plus free books for life.
0:31:41 > 0:31:44LAUGHTER
0:31:44 > 0:31:52In 2016, the sale of printed books in the UK increased by 7.6%.
0:31:52 > 0:31:58Whilst those of consumer e-books shrank again by 2.8%.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01In the year to August 2016,
0:32:01 > 0:32:07we sold 145,000 used and rare books through 20 internet marketplaces
0:32:07 > 0:32:08around the world.
0:32:08 > 0:32:14While our £1 book shop contributed £147,000 in revenue
0:32:14 > 0:32:15in the last 12 months.
0:32:15 > 0:32:17As well as selling lots of used books,
0:32:17 > 0:32:22we also have a cafe, which contributes significantly to the bottom line.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25In the year to August 2016,
0:32:25 > 0:32:31we turned over 1.27 million and made a net profit of 34,000.
0:32:31 > 0:32:32We've built the machine,
0:32:32 > 0:32:36now your investment will enable us to grow our visitor numbers.
0:32:36 > 0:32:42That's visitors both to our Bookbarn webstore and, most importantly,
0:32:42 > 0:32:46to our rapidly evolving rare and antiquarian book department.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49Darwin Rare Books, named after William's great, great grandfather.
0:32:49 > 0:32:54So, thank you so much for this opportunity again, and, please,
0:32:54 > 0:32:55we welcome any questions you may have.
0:32:57 > 0:33:02It's a perfectly evolved pitch from William Pryor and Fenna Leake,
0:33:02 > 0:33:08who are asking for £100,000 for 10% of their Somerset-based book business.
0:33:09 > 0:33:13But in the Den, where survival is always of the fittest,
0:33:13 > 0:33:16Peter Jones begins by exploring William's heritage.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22You mentioned in your pitch about a great, great-grandfather.
0:33:22 > 0:33:25- Yes.- Who's your great, great grandfather?
0:33:25 > 0:33:27Darwin.
0:33:27 > 0:33:28- For real?- Yes, really.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32- In his name.- But you shouldn't take any notice of that.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35- I think that's quite big, isn't it? - It's not my achievement, though,
0:33:35 > 0:33:39I just happen to find myself being the great, great grandson.
0:33:41 > 0:33:42Wow.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45- Can I just ask, are you related? - No. We're not.
0:33:45 > 0:33:49So, how did this...? I'm not being funny, quite literally.
0:33:49 > 0:33:51- How did this happen?- Yeah.
0:33:51 > 0:33:55Yeah. I was working as a Sunday girl in the shop, part-time,
0:33:55 > 0:33:58one day a week. And then I decided to take a gap year
0:33:58 > 0:34:01and it turned into a full-time job,
0:34:01 > 0:34:03and they gave me this amazing opportunity.
0:34:03 > 0:34:05And how old were you when that happened?
0:34:05 > 0:34:08- 21.- She's now 25.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10That's great. That's fantastic.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12It is fantastic. We're really blessed.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18Good reviews all-round for the entrepreneurs.
0:34:18 > 0:34:22And now, former banker Jenny Campbell wants to audit their books.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30I love the fact that books are getting a resurgence.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33How many in a week will come inwards to the warehouse?
0:34:33 > 0:34:38We're cataloguing 5,000 a week, and then we're receiving thousands more
0:34:38 > 0:34:44- on top.- It feels like you're on the receiving end of a chute of books
0:34:44 > 0:34:45that's overwhelming you.
0:34:45 > 0:34:49- Is it chaos?- No, it's not chaos at all, it's quite orderly.
0:34:49 > 0:34:54It feels almost cathedral-like because our stacks go so high,
0:34:54 > 0:34:57- it is quite... It is quite "wow!" - No, that's good.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00Can I just ask, if somebody came in and wanted to buy that stock now,
0:35:00 > 0:35:04- what would they...?- We would look for at least £2 a book.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07- So what's the total value? - Well, we...
0:35:07 > 0:35:10We have to confess, we don't know precisely how many books we've got.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12We know how many books are catalogued...
0:35:12 > 0:35:15- Online.- ..which is just over half a million.
0:35:16 > 0:35:18So approximately £1 million worth of books?
0:35:20 > 0:35:21Yeah.
0:35:24 > 0:35:26With such impressive assets,
0:35:26 > 0:35:30the book company is proving quite a hit so far.
0:35:30 > 0:35:34But Deborah Meaden is poised to dig deeper into the company's set-up.
0:35:38 > 0:35:40- What are your overheads?- Er...
0:35:40 > 0:35:46- Go on.- So our biggest overhead is our staff costs, followed by our rent.
0:35:46 > 0:35:49Our rent is £10,000 a month,
0:35:49 > 0:35:53plus we pay a surcharge on that rent of 2,000.
0:35:56 > 0:36:00I should explain, in 2015, we went into a CVA,
0:36:00 > 0:36:03a company voluntary arrangement,
0:36:03 > 0:36:09whereby we agreed to pay our then creditors 50% over four years,
0:36:09 > 0:36:10which we're still doing.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13And what caused that?
0:36:13 > 0:36:15In 2013, when we took it over,
0:36:15 > 0:36:19we discovered how unfit for the business the software was, and the
0:36:19 > 0:36:23building. So we decided we had to, if we wanted to keep the business,
0:36:23 > 0:36:26to change both those.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30We were assured by an equity broker that he could raise 250,000 for us.
0:36:30 > 0:36:32And we funded all that,
0:36:32 > 0:36:35believing that we had this money coming, and when it didn't come...
0:36:35 > 0:36:38- Yeah.- ..we got into financial difficulty.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41And how much money is now outstanding?
0:36:41 > 0:36:46All the company's debts are close to 400,000.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54The startling revelation of substantial debts has brought the
0:36:54 > 0:36:55Den to a standstill.
0:36:56 > 0:37:00And Touker Suleyman is wondering how the entrepreneurs are managing to
0:37:00 > 0:37:03keep their heads above water.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06From what I can see, you did 1.27 turnover.
0:37:06 > 0:37:08- Yes.- You made 34,000 profit.
0:37:08 > 0:37:13- Yes.- It'll take you about 12 years to pay off your debts at that rate.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16We are increasing our revenue all the time,
0:37:16 > 0:37:21so hopefully our debt repayment speed will increase.
0:37:21 > 0:37:23Yeah.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26Fenna, you come across very credible.
0:37:26 > 0:37:30You come across very knowledgeable, and when you said your age..
0:37:30 > 0:37:32SHE LAUGHS
0:37:32 > 0:37:33..I was taken aback.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39However, there are too many skeletons in the cupboard.
0:37:39 > 0:37:40It's not clean.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47I'm not going to be on that journey with you guys.
0:37:47 > 0:37:48I'm out.
0:37:50 > 0:37:54Touker Suleyman is the first Dragon to ditch the deal,
0:37:54 > 0:37:57uncomfortable with the burden of debt hanging over the book company.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03Will Jenny Campbell, with a track record in business turnarounds,
0:38:03 > 0:38:04be on the same page?
0:38:06 > 0:38:10William, Fenna, what concerns me, you bought something,
0:38:10 > 0:38:13you got keys to the door, but it wasn't all well, was it,
0:38:13 > 0:38:15when you lifted the carpet?
0:38:15 > 0:38:18Which then dragged you down and you went into the CVA.
0:38:18 > 0:38:20I think you've got the next three, four,
0:38:20 > 0:38:24five years to really see the light at the end of the tunnel and some
0:38:24 > 0:38:26more hard spadework before that happens.
0:38:26 > 0:38:29- Yeah.- So it's not an investment for me at this stage.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32- And I'm out.- OK.
0:38:36 > 0:38:42I am very concerned that £100,000 is not going to achieve what
0:38:42 > 0:38:45you want it to achieve, because you are starting from behind.
0:38:46 > 0:38:49It buys you time, it buys you some cash flow,
0:38:49 > 0:38:51but it still gets eaten up there.
0:38:51 > 0:38:56And that, to me, is just one step too far.
0:39:01 > 0:39:02I'm out.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09When I invest in businesses, it's got to be fairly simple.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13With your business, there are so many things that need to be, sort of,
0:39:13 > 0:39:17dealt with before you can really focus on the growth
0:39:17 > 0:39:19and putting money in.
0:39:19 > 0:39:21That's a key risk.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25I don't see I'm going to get a return any time quick, so therefore,
0:39:25 > 0:39:27I'm out.
0:39:27 > 0:39:29- OK.- Thank you.
0:39:31 > 0:39:34Tej Lalvani is the fourth Dragon to close the book
0:39:34 > 0:39:37on the business opportunity.
0:39:37 > 0:39:41Only Peter Jones remains, and he's still finding the story of William's
0:39:41 > 0:39:44ancestry a real page turner.
0:39:45 > 0:39:47But is it enough to make him invest?
0:39:52 > 0:39:56William, when you say you're the great, great-grandson of Darwin...
0:39:56 > 0:39:59- Yes.- ..you are talking Charles Darwin, aren't you? - I'm talking Charles Darwin.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01I'll give you the full lineage, shall I?
0:40:01 > 0:40:05Charles Darwin was the father, he had five sons.
0:40:05 > 0:40:07And one of those, the third,
0:40:07 > 0:40:11was Sir George Darwin, who was my great grandfather.
0:40:11 > 0:40:16His eldest daughter was Gwen, she was my grandmother, so I'm a Darwin.
0:40:16 > 0:40:18Even though my surname is not Darwin.
0:40:23 > 0:40:25It is a tough one.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31I think you've done a really good thing to keep, potentially, the business alive
0:40:31 > 0:40:37- and allow creditors to at least receive a large proportion of their money back.- Yeah.
0:40:37 > 0:40:40Where I'm sitting, you've got £1 million worth of stock.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43- Yeah.- Even if you're selling them at a much lower price,
0:40:43 > 0:40:46I would have wholesaled several 100,000 of my books to pay back
0:40:46 > 0:40:48those creditors to take it back out of a CVA,
0:40:48 > 0:40:53get your company back and get ownership and drive that online business.
0:40:53 > 0:40:56Because if you've got six or £700,000 worth of stock left,
0:40:56 > 0:41:00you could spend time tweaking it and actually making more margin.
0:41:00 > 0:41:03And that, for an investor, is really exciting.
0:41:03 > 0:41:07And if you'd focused purely on that element of the business...
0:41:09 > 0:41:11..I would have got over the line.
0:41:14 > 0:41:16So, I'm out,
0:41:16 > 0:41:19but I wish you the very best of luck and I hope it all works out.
0:41:19 > 0:41:20- Thank you.- Thank you so much for your time.
0:41:20 > 0:41:22Thank you, thank you, thank you.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27Despite several plot twists,
0:41:27 > 0:41:30the duo couldn't stop their descent into rejection
0:41:30 > 0:41:33and they leave the Den without a deal.
0:41:33 > 0:41:36It's a shame about the complications, but otherwise,
0:41:36 > 0:41:37it's quite a nice business.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40- Nice to see books still selling and still alive.- Yeah.
0:41:42 > 0:41:44It was a good reception, despite the outcome.
0:41:44 > 0:41:46- Yeah.- We're happy with that.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49- Are we?- Are we?
0:41:49 > 0:41:50Yes, we're happy with that.
0:41:50 > 0:41:52SHE LAUGHS
0:41:57 > 0:42:02Our final pair of young hopefuls are fitness enthusiasts Liam Sheriff and
0:42:02 > 0:42:07Craig Newbigin from County Durham, and they're expecting one Dragon
0:42:07 > 0:42:10in particular to flex his financial muscles.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19We could be grilled by Peter, but, to be honest,
0:42:19 > 0:42:23he's one of the ones that we have quite high on our list, to be keen
0:42:23 > 0:42:24to work with as well.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33And obviously, Tej is the owner of a brand that we're big fans of,
0:42:33 > 0:42:36so let's hope he doesn't be put off by us being competition, long-term.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38- Hopefully. - HE LAUGHS
0:42:47 > 0:42:51Hi, Dragons. My name's Liam Sheriff and this is my business partner,
0:42:51 > 0:42:56Craig Newbigin. We're here today to ask for £100,000 for a 10% stake in
0:42:56 > 0:42:59our company, Natural Nutrients.
0:42:59 > 0:43:00Back in 2013,
0:43:00 > 0:43:03I was working as a personal trainer and all of my clients would
0:43:03 > 0:43:07constantly ask where was the best place to buy supplements from.
0:43:07 > 0:43:09After extensively researching the market,
0:43:09 > 0:43:13I realised it was very difficult to find a single brand that offered
0:43:13 > 0:43:14high-quality products,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18as well as 100% transparency and that didn't use a load of unnecessary
0:43:18 > 0:43:22artificial ingredients, so I decided to create one.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25From day one, we've believed in choosing quality over cost and,
0:43:25 > 0:43:29as a result, we've developed a range of products that our customers can trust.
0:43:29 > 0:43:33We started with sports nutrition and have extended the range to include
0:43:33 > 0:43:37general health, superfoods and now snacking products.
0:43:37 > 0:43:40So after running the business from home part-time for the first three
0:43:40 > 0:43:44years, I decided to go full-time in the summer of last year and,
0:43:44 > 0:43:48as a result, we managed to grow turnover by 60% on the year before.
0:43:48 > 0:43:49And so far this year,
0:43:49 > 0:43:53we've managed to gain interest from Europe's largest and leading health
0:43:53 > 0:43:57food retailer. And we now expect to launch our first product in 270 of
0:43:57 > 0:43:59their stores in the next few months.
0:44:00 > 0:44:03Liam's going to give you a sample of our latest product innovation,
0:44:03 > 0:44:06protein popcorn, and we welcome any questions that you may have.
0:44:08 > 0:44:13It's a gutsy pitch from Liam Sheriff and Craig Newbigin...
0:44:13 > 0:44:15Choose any flavour you like, Touker.
0:44:15 > 0:44:20..who are asking for £100,000 for 10% of their natural supplements and
0:44:20 > 0:44:22- snacks business.- Sweet vanilla.
0:44:22 > 0:44:24Oh, that's good.
0:44:24 > 0:44:27First off the starting block is Jenny Campbell,
0:44:27 > 0:44:32ready to pump the body-conscious entrepreneurs for information on
0:44:32 > 0:44:33their target market.
0:44:36 > 0:44:40Nice to meet you. I love your accents, by the way.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43But it won't easily sway me, it's got to be a good business.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45So in the fitness market,
0:44:45 > 0:44:47there is obviously the traditional body-builder.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50- Yeah.- And I've got two fairly strapping sons at home and what I'll find in
0:44:50 > 0:44:54- the cupboard is a huge tub... - Tub, yeah.- ..of Maximuscle.
0:44:54 > 0:44:56And there's big spoons of it going in things.
0:44:56 > 0:44:59Are you looking to convert people like that to this, or are you looking
0:44:59 > 0:45:04to convert more average gym trippers, or just your average person to take one
0:45:04 > 0:45:07- or two of these a day?- We are getting customers who are very hardcore
0:45:07 > 0:45:10body-building, very, very strict, clean eating and all the rest of it.
0:45:10 > 0:45:14But we are getting a massive increase of uptake from just your general
0:45:14 > 0:45:17- Joe Public.- Isn't this already a crowded market place?
0:45:17 > 0:45:20What we know is that there is an opening market for people looking
0:45:20 > 0:45:24for more natural products with cleaner formulations.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27The product that you have in your hand there is our vegan blend.
0:45:27 > 0:45:28We're using fava bean there.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31We are the only company using that in the UK.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36The duo are confident they're ahead of the game,
0:45:36 > 0:45:41but their ambition to swoop in and capture a new trend raises questions
0:45:41 > 0:45:43for a sceptical Peter Jones.
0:45:47 > 0:45:53I'm keen, really, to know why you believe that there is a market here
0:45:53 > 0:45:56for you as a new entrant without
0:45:56 > 0:45:58some serious money behind your business.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01The last round of investment allowed us to go to trade shows.
0:46:01 > 0:46:05At those trade shows, we were able to pitch our products to Holland & Barrett.
0:46:05 > 0:46:09From that pitch, we were then invited to a meeting and discuss,
0:46:09 > 0:46:11kind of, getting the products in there.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17I know Holland & Barrett, we are one of the largest supplier of vitamins to
0:46:17 > 0:46:18- Holland & Barrett.- Yeah.
0:46:18 > 0:46:21So, how many grams is that large bag?
0:46:21 > 0:46:22- Kilogram.- A kilogram, yeah.
0:46:22 > 0:46:26- One kilo. And how much are you selling that for?- £30.99 online.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30So we'd be looking around the £33-£35 in-store.
0:46:30 > 0:46:32And what's your cost on this product?
0:46:32 > 0:46:35At the moment, it's around about £14 net of that.
0:46:36 > 0:46:39Wow. OK. What price would you be selling it on?
0:46:39 > 0:46:41About 16.50.
0:46:41 > 0:46:4416... You're really joking now.
0:46:47 > 0:46:50So you've got a margin of £2.50?
0:46:51 > 0:46:55I don't think you're ever going to make a profit, and that's because your margin is so bad.
0:46:56 > 0:46:58I've never seen a margin like this, ever.
0:47:01 > 0:47:03It's a huge blow for the entrepreneurs,
0:47:03 > 0:47:07as health supplement giant Tej Lalvani raises serious doubts
0:47:07 > 0:47:11about the company's potential to make a profit.
0:47:11 > 0:47:15And former banker Jenny Campbell wants to find out more about their
0:47:15 > 0:47:17financial track record.
0:47:21 > 0:47:23So how did you do in your first year, then?
0:47:23 > 0:47:25We took £125,000.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28Convertible investment loan.
0:47:28 > 0:47:32And we used that money predominantly to set up shop with a warehouse.
0:47:32 > 0:47:34But what were your figures last year?
0:47:34 > 0:47:36Last year, 71,000 turnover.
0:47:36 > 0:47:39- Gross profit?- 26.5.
0:47:39 > 0:47:44And then we made a loss of 64,000 as we invested into the structure and
0:47:44 > 0:47:47- infrastructure that we have today. - And new product development.- Yeah.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52Guys, what's the terms on the 125,000 that you've taken in?
0:47:52 > 0:47:55It's what's called a proof-of-concept loan.
0:47:55 > 0:47:58The money's from Government money, from the EU.
0:47:58 > 0:48:00They give you the money.
0:48:00 > 0:48:02Nothing happens for two years.
0:48:02 > 0:48:05After two years, you decide whether you want to negotiate an equity
0:48:05 > 0:48:08shareholding, or you start repaying the loan back.
0:48:08 > 0:48:12That, as it stands, is all up for negotiation.
0:48:12 > 0:48:13So how are you going to do that?
0:48:15 > 0:48:18How can you possibly repay any loan?
0:48:18 > 0:48:21This year, we're forecasting a profit of 36,500.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23And obviously we'll pay the loan back monthly, but...
0:48:23 > 0:48:26Guys, I can tell you straightaway, I'm really concerned.
0:48:26 > 0:48:28- Right.- Can I see the agreement? - Yeah, sure.- Thanks.
0:48:30 > 0:48:33Guys, could I ask you a question?
0:48:33 > 0:48:35Based on today's conversation.
0:48:35 > 0:48:37- Yeah.- Is this business worth £1 million?
0:48:39 > 0:48:42Honestly. Put your hand on your heart and say,
0:48:42 > 0:48:45"Is it worth £1 million?"
0:48:45 > 0:48:48On today's valuation, today, no.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51OK. So why have you come in today
0:48:51 > 0:48:54asking for £1 million valuation?
0:48:54 > 0:48:59I think because we genuinely 100% believe that we can put our money
0:48:59 > 0:49:02- where our mouth is.- You have no money to put where your mouth is.
0:49:02 > 0:49:04- That's your problem.- We're determined to follow through with..
0:49:04 > 0:49:08- Exactly what we said we're going to do.- I think, guys,
0:49:08 > 0:49:12this is not a business that says to me, without investment today,
0:49:12 > 0:49:15- we'll survive.- OK. - So I'll tell you where I'm at.
0:49:16 > 0:49:18- I'm out.- Thank you very much.
0:49:20 > 0:49:25Touker Suleyman is the first to decline the deal, with grave misgivings
0:49:25 > 0:49:28about the embattled entrepreneurs' valuation.
0:49:29 > 0:49:34And now Peter Jones has spotted an issue with their loan agreement.
0:49:36 > 0:49:40The terms, they've been pretty tough on you.
0:49:40 > 0:49:42125K, 0% interest.
0:49:42 > 0:49:44You think, "That's great."
0:49:44 > 0:49:46And then all of a sudden it goes, "Ah, redemption premium."
0:49:46 > 0:49:50£100,000 or 80% of the loan.
0:49:50 > 0:49:52- Yeah.- That's a 40% interest rate.
0:49:54 > 0:49:56It's like a payday loan, isn't it?
0:49:58 > 0:50:00I've been there in that situation where, you know,
0:50:00 > 0:50:03you felt that this was the last place to go to take the money.
0:50:05 > 0:50:07I understand why that happens.
0:50:07 > 0:50:08With my banking background,
0:50:08 > 0:50:12I do think you would absolutely go back to the negotiating table
0:50:12 > 0:50:14because it will be a case of, well,
0:50:14 > 0:50:17either you lose the whole lot or we come to a sensible solution.
0:50:20 > 0:50:27The terms of the duo's business loan are unequivocally damned by the Dragons.
0:50:27 > 0:50:31Can Deborah Meaden see past the constraints of the contract to spot
0:50:31 > 0:50:33a brand with potential for growth?
0:50:36 > 0:50:39I actually get the business side of this.
0:50:39 > 0:50:41Somebody has to break a market.
0:50:41 > 0:50:44- Yeah, yeah.- And all credit to the person brave enough to say,
0:50:44 > 0:50:46"I'm going for it."
0:50:46 > 0:50:49And I think the market is moving toward you.
0:50:53 > 0:50:55- You know...- No.- Sorry.
0:51:04 > 0:51:06There's a little bit of my heart doing this.
0:51:08 > 0:51:10There's a lot of my head doing it.
0:51:12 > 0:51:14But I am going to make you an offer.
0:51:20 > 0:51:22And I'm going to offer you half of the money...
0:51:26 > 0:51:32..but I want 20% of the business and it's on the basis that you can
0:51:32 > 0:51:37- negotiate that £100,000 penalty out of that agreement.- OK.
0:51:37 > 0:51:39OK. Thank you very much.
0:51:40 > 0:51:43Despite the tricky terms of the loan,
0:51:43 > 0:51:45Deborah Meaden has made an offer,
0:51:45 > 0:51:48but only for half the cash.
0:51:48 > 0:51:53Leaving the duo in desperate need of another Dragon to complete the deal.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59I think you're really, genuinely up against it
0:51:59 > 0:52:01with regards to this agreement.
0:52:03 > 0:52:05And this agreement is...
0:52:07 > 0:52:09..is actually the reason why...
0:52:12 > 0:52:13..I'm going to make you an offer.
0:52:17 > 0:52:21Cos I don't like things like this and it's incensed me enough...
0:52:23 > 0:52:26..to help you do something about it and help you change your business
0:52:26 > 0:52:28for the better.
0:52:29 > 0:52:31So I'm going to offer you all of the money...
0:52:34 > 0:52:36..but I want 40% of the business.
0:52:38 > 0:52:40And I'm also happy to share it with a Dragon.
0:52:42 > 0:52:44- Thank you.- Thank you, Peter.
0:52:46 > 0:52:48So, Craig, Liam...
0:52:50 > 0:52:53..I like what I see here. I like what I see here in you two as well.
0:52:55 > 0:52:58As one of the new Dragons, I come with a blank sheet of paper,
0:52:58 > 0:52:59which means I've got time, capacity.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02- Excuse me.- Focus. - Just...- It's my...
0:53:02 > 0:53:05- Excuse me, Deborah.- Before we... Yes.- It's my piece now.
0:53:05 > 0:53:07No, I'm defending my position,
0:53:07 > 0:53:10no-one's ever complained about the time I give.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13And I certainly have all the time in the world for my investments.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15Right.
0:53:15 > 0:53:16I have time, focus,
0:53:16 > 0:53:20energy, and I'm building a portfolio of diverse businesses and will give
0:53:20 > 0:53:22them all that energy.
0:53:23 > 0:53:25So I'm keen to
0:53:25 > 0:53:28play a role in this, and to show you how keen I am,
0:53:28 > 0:53:33I will make you an offer for half the money for 17.5%.
0:53:34 > 0:53:38- OK. Thank you very much.- Thank you.
0:53:38 > 0:53:40In a remarkable turn of events,
0:53:40 > 0:53:44the duo have three offers on the table, with the Dragons vying
0:53:44 > 0:53:47against each other to seal a deal.
0:53:48 > 0:53:52Will Tej Lalvani, who the pair were hoping to impress,
0:53:52 > 0:53:57be poised to supplement their business with his cash and expertise?
0:53:59 > 0:54:01That leaves me.
0:54:04 > 0:54:05Um...
0:54:06 > 0:54:11I just feel you've got your strategy all mixed up.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13To try and get that cost of production down,
0:54:13 > 0:54:14you may get it a little bit,
0:54:14 > 0:54:17but you're not going to get it too much down.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20And to sell a product at retail at £50 is going to be difficult.
0:54:21 > 0:54:25Your company's just not worth anywhere near what you think it is.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27It's probably worth about 200K.
0:54:29 > 0:54:32So on that basis...
0:54:35 > 0:54:37..I'm going to make you an offer.
0:54:40 > 0:54:43Contingent to you sorting that loan out...
0:54:45 > 0:54:47..I'm prepared
0:54:47 > 0:54:49to offer half the money for 20%.
0:54:51 > 0:54:53OK. Thank you very much.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57- Shall we go and chat? - Are we OK to talk at the back?
0:55:05 > 0:55:07Four Dragons have made offers
0:55:07 > 0:55:10and all are willing to share the investment.
0:55:12 > 0:55:16Three are looking for 20% for half the money.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21With Jenny Campbell coming in at 17.5%.
0:55:25 > 0:55:29The heat is on as the entrepreneurs calculate their options.
0:55:35 > 0:55:39Thanks, everybody, for your very kind offers.
0:55:39 > 0:55:45And we come in here looking for two Dragons who we thought were going to
0:55:45 > 0:55:49help the business take that next step and work on some clear problems
0:55:49 > 0:55:50in the company at the moment.
0:55:52 > 0:55:57And on that basis, we would like to ask Tej and Peter,
0:55:57 > 0:56:02would you consider doing half of the money each for 15% equity each?
0:56:08 > 0:56:11I'll tell you where I am, I just think that the reason I'm here,
0:56:11 > 0:56:14putting half the money, is because of you guys and what you've done.
0:56:15 > 0:56:20And, really, I can't go any lower.
0:56:22 > 0:56:23OK. Peter?
0:56:26 > 0:56:27How much will you be left with?
0:56:28 > 0:56:31If you were to take 40?
0:56:31 > 0:56:35I'd be left with 49.7%.
0:56:35 > 0:56:38And obviously, I'd like to stay above 51, if I can.
0:56:40 > 0:56:45And would you consider 17.5% each,
0:56:45 > 0:56:49and can call it 35, which means I stay above 51 and you get a slightly
0:56:49 > 0:56:51higher incentive?
0:56:52 > 0:56:53Erm...
0:56:55 > 0:56:58I actually think it's important that you retain a level of control
0:56:58 > 0:57:00in the business.
0:57:01 > 0:57:08I personally would be happy to go down to 17.5, but actually only when
0:57:08 > 0:57:10the investment that I've made is repaid.
0:57:14 > 0:57:17Tej, can we ask you to do the same?
0:57:21 > 0:57:24- Yeah, I'll do the same. - OK. Got a deal, then. Thank you very much.
0:57:24 > 0:57:26Thank you very much.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29Cheers, mate. Thank you very much.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32After a high impact work-out in the Den,
0:57:32 > 0:57:36Liam and Craig walk away all pumped up with the two Dragons
0:57:36 > 0:57:38they were hoping for.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44THEY LAUGH
0:57:44 > 0:57:46- Well done, mate.- Well done. - All I can say is...
0:57:46 > 0:57:48That's what I think of that.
0:57:48 > 0:57:51Honestly, I've never felt the way what I'm feeling right now.
0:57:51 > 0:57:52Absolutely unbelievable.
0:57:55 > 0:57:56I can't believe it, to be honest.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58- I know.- Honestly, it's just crazy. - It is.
0:58:03 > 0:58:08They came in two by two today, a sequence of duos in the Den.
0:58:08 > 0:58:12It's perhaps less daunting in front of the Dragons when there's more
0:58:12 > 0:58:15than one of you. Didn't work in all cases,
0:58:15 > 0:58:18but a couple of our pairs did win the backing of a multimillionaire
0:58:18 > 0:58:23investor. They arrived as a two, but left as a team.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26- Good health, Dragons.- Cheers. - Good investment, more to the point.
0:58:26 > 0:58:28Next time on Dragons' Den...
0:58:28 > 0:58:31Your numbers are about as hot as a mild korma.
0:58:31 > 0:58:34That's lovely, but it's still stupid.
0:58:34 > 0:58:38I believe I'm the one Dragon that can take you to where you want to go.
0:58:38 > 0:58:41I'm actually going to make you an offer.
0:58:41 > 0:58:42I like the way you're negotiating.
0:58:42 > 0:58:46- I'm going to withdraw my offer. - Don't lose it for 5%!