0:00:03 > 0:00:04Tonight...
0:00:06 > 0:00:09..the five Dragons are in festive mood.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11If I invest, do I get to meet Santa?
0:00:11 > 0:00:13Yes!
0:00:13 > 0:00:17But will the Den be filled with Christmas cheer?
0:00:17 > 0:00:19What you've created is fantastic.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22You're obviously a smart guy and a very successful businessman.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25Or will it be more like "bah, humbug"?
0:00:25 > 0:00:27You're oddly spiky.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30I find you just a load of excuses.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32How does that stack up in your mind?
0:00:35 > 0:00:37For the entrepreneurs, the heat is on...
0:00:37 > 0:00:40The, er... The...
0:00:40 > 0:00:42Sorry, I've totally lost myself.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44..as some hit the mark...
0:00:44 > 0:00:45You are a mega entrepreneur.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48- No question about it. - ..while others hit the road.
0:00:48 > 0:00:52- Why are you here?- I don't see you as investible, I'm afraid.
0:00:52 > 0:00:59But will tonight prove to be the most wonderful time of the year in the Den?
0:00:59 > 0:01:01You've spent 1.5 million?
0:01:01 > 0:01:03I'm now completely intrigued.
0:01:35 > 0:01:37Welcome to Dragons' Den -
0:01:37 > 0:01:43home to five titans of the business world, who are ready to pounce on
0:01:43 > 0:01:45profit-producing ideas.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47It's the season of goodwill,
0:01:47 > 0:01:51but will there be sleigh bells or alarm bells in the Den?
0:01:51 > 0:01:56First to find out is an entrepreneur whose products are much in demand at
0:01:56 > 0:01:57Christmas time.
0:02:01 > 0:02:02What am I worried about?
0:02:02 > 0:02:05Not much, I don't think.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07They're probably going to say some nasty things
0:02:07 > 0:02:09about my business, I expect.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14But I'm pretty confident that I know most of the numbers.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20Heat of the moment may well mean that those slip out of my head.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24But we'll see what happens when I get in there.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Hello, Dragons. My name is Andrew Pearce.
0:02:37 > 0:02:43I'm the CEO and founder of Thortful, an online greeting card marketplace.
0:02:43 > 0:02:48I'm here today to ask for £80,000 for 5% of my business.
0:03:00 > 0:03:01The, er... The...
0:03:02 > 0:03:04Sorry, I've totally lost myself.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09I actually thought you were just being thoughtful.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11HE LAUGHS
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Did you know the online greeting card market is worth
0:03:17 > 0:03:21£1.6 billion in the UK per annum?
0:03:21 > 0:03:25And the innovation in this space hasn't really moved on since Moonpig
0:03:25 > 0:03:27launched over ten years ago.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30That's where Thortful comes in.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34Thortful is a marketplace where we allow anyone to design,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37create and upload their own content.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40And with every card that we sell on behalf of the creator,
0:03:40 > 0:03:44they receive 50p, which is a market-leading royalty.
0:03:45 > 0:03:49Our mobile app allows people to navigate really quickly to relevant cards.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52You can even add your own handwriting.
0:03:52 > 0:03:54We've been running for 12 months.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57We have over 65,000 customers.
0:03:57 > 0:04:02In 2017, we predict that we'll do £1 million turnover.
0:04:02 > 0:04:072018, we're predicting we'll do 2.5 million turnover.
0:04:07 > 0:04:11And 2019, 6.7 million turnover.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15I've got a couple of cards to hand around to you all.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18After a very nervous start,
0:04:18 > 0:04:22Andrew Pearce finds his feet and manages to finish his pitch.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25I hope I'm right with your card.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28- Oh!- He's offering a 5% equity stake
0:04:28 > 0:04:30in his online greeting card business.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32SHE LAUGHS
0:04:32 > 0:04:35And seeking an £80,000 investment in return.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40Deborah Meaden wants to understand the shopping experience of Andrew's
0:04:40 > 0:04:42card clientele.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46Andrew, hi.
0:04:46 > 0:04:50There's actually a lot of places you can buy, obviously online,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52greeting cards. Plenty of them.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56So if I went on your site today, I can actually transact on your site?
0:04:56 > 0:04:59- 100%.- How many cards have you got?
0:04:59 > 0:05:01Active in our database, about 12,000.
0:05:01 > 0:05:02And how much do they cost?
0:05:02 > 0:05:04£2.99 plus postage.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08So you are literally giving me the same experience if I walked into a
0:05:08 > 0:05:11shop, picked a card up from a till, walked over to the till,
0:05:11 > 0:05:13paid for it and then stuck a stamp on it.
0:05:13 > 0:05:17- Yes.- OK. You have got your 50p that goes out, which is your commission.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19What else have you got in terms of cost of sales?
0:05:19 > 0:05:23So you've got the credit card fee, printing and production.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28So it's about £1, currently it's about £1.20-ish that we make per card.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32Deborah Meaden breaks down the figures
0:05:32 > 0:05:36and discovers a healthy mark-up on the business's products.
0:05:36 > 0:05:41But Jenny Campbell is wondering if the increasing use of social media
0:05:41 > 0:05:45might mean the writing is on the wall for a traditional card company.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53Andrew, is that card market going to decline over the years as people stop
0:05:53 > 0:05:56sending cards, because they just post a message on Facebook or they send
0:05:56 > 0:05:59you a text and cards become a thing of the past, like handwritten letters
0:05:59 > 0:06:01have become a thing of the past?
0:06:01 > 0:06:03The card market is still growing, Jenny.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06It's still growing year-on-year.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08I think it was 5% last year.
0:06:08 > 0:06:12So... And we love giving and receiving cards in this country.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14We're the biggest card-giving nation in the world.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21Andrew, I'm not overly convinced that what you've pitched is anything unique yet.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23Have I missed something?
0:06:23 > 0:06:27Because you can personalise using your own handwriting and upload today,
0:06:27 > 0:06:28- can't you?- Yes.- OK.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32So, what is it that you believe that you've got that's a real USP?
0:06:32 > 0:06:36The USP is that 70% of our content is not available on the high street.
0:06:38 > 0:06:39OK. Which is...
0:06:39 > 0:06:41OK, that's fairly unique.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44So what have you spent on developing this app?
0:06:45 > 0:06:48Today we have spent about £1.5 million.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50- Oh!- How much?
0:06:53 > 0:06:55You've spent 1.5 million?
0:06:55 > 0:06:56Yes.
0:06:58 > 0:06:59Wow!
0:07:00 > 0:07:02Andrew, I'm now completely intrigued.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07- Where did you get that money from? - OK, so... So...
0:07:07 > 0:07:10Basically I've run my own businesses before, before today.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12From about the age of 21,
0:07:12 > 0:07:16I set up my first business which was an outsourced call centre.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18And how much did you sell for?
0:07:18 > 0:07:20We sold that for 12.1 million.
0:07:22 > 0:07:25- How much did you make?- Er...
0:07:25 > 0:07:28- Six.- Wow!
0:07:28 > 0:07:31And then after that I thought, "Why don't we try some conference calling?"
0:07:31 > 0:07:35- So something totally different. - OK, so you did that. What did you sell that business for?
0:07:35 > 0:07:39Sold that for...about 37 million.
0:07:39 > 0:07:40And how much did you make?
0:07:40 > 0:07:42Er...about 15.
0:07:45 > 0:07:48- You've made 21 million...- Yep.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51..and you clearly... You are a mega entrepreneur, no question about it.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55You should be sitting here.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58Not quite yet.
0:08:00 > 0:08:04The revelation that there is a sixth multimillionaire in the Den has
0:08:04 > 0:08:07caught the attention of the Dragons.
0:08:07 > 0:08:13But mega-wealthy Touker Suleyman appears more concerned with his £2.99 personalised card.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17Thank you for calling me...
0:08:17 > 0:08:23the old Dragon. Now I'm going to give you the old Dragon.
0:08:23 > 0:08:24Why are you here?
0:08:24 > 0:08:26You don't need to be here!
0:08:27 > 0:08:30Well, I mean, the first reason for being here is I really would like a
0:08:30 > 0:08:33Dragon to be on board to help us grow the business over the next two years.
0:08:33 > 0:08:39- You could quite easily write a cheque out for £80,000 and you won't blink.- Absolutely.- Correct.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41- Right. So you don't need the money? - No.
0:08:41 > 0:08:44And you're not quite sure what you want from a Dragon.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48I think further on down the line, in terms of raising additional funding,
0:08:48 > 0:08:50I am 100% certain what I'm looking for with a Dragon.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54- Which is?- Which is help, networking...
0:08:54 > 0:08:57opening their black book to different funding opportunities.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01Something that I've never done before, because never raised any cash before.
0:09:01 > 0:09:03- I'm not a banker.- That's OK.
0:09:03 > 0:09:08- You'll give me the ball.- Look, I think if a Dragon puts in £80,000 for 5%,
0:09:08 > 0:09:12within two years, he'll be diluted down to about 1%.
0:09:12 > 0:09:14I hope there won't be a dilution to 1%.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16- So having a Dragon on board...- Yes.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18..will definitely add value to your business.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20- Yes, 100%.- Right.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22And there's a price for that.
0:09:22 > 0:09:26So, if I was going to invest in your business, I'd want to know
0:09:26 > 0:09:28that I won't be diluted.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30- So can you give me that guarantee? - No, I can't give you that guarantee.
0:09:30 > 0:09:34- I can't give you that guarantee today.- OK.
0:09:34 > 0:09:35I'm not going to invest.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38- I'm out.- Thank you.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44Touker Suleyman's concern that future investment will to lead to
0:09:44 > 0:09:48some serious equity shrinkage makes him head for the door.
0:09:49 > 0:09:54And Deborah Meaden has an issue with the slice of the company that's up for grabs.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59In this business, I can see very quickly that you are going to get to
0:09:59 > 0:10:02a stage where you need millions.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05- OK.- The raising of that doesn't concern me at all.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07The bit that does bother me,
0:10:07 > 0:10:12that if I start at anything close to the percentage that you're offering,
0:10:12 > 0:10:15I end up doing all of this work,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18bringing all of the funds in and ending up, at the end of the day,
0:10:18 > 0:10:21with a tiny, tiny, tiny piece.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24I want to own a chunky bit that keeps my attention.
0:10:25 > 0:10:27You are a really good.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31But it's just not my style, so I won't be investing.
0:10:31 > 0:10:32I'm out.
0:10:32 > 0:10:33OK.
0:10:35 > 0:10:38Look, you're obviously a smart guy and a very successful businessman.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41Congratulations. Your previous business,
0:10:41 > 0:10:43how did you build your customer base on that?
0:10:43 > 0:10:46Exactly the same way as I'm doing now.
0:10:46 > 0:10:47- Was it online?- Yep.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50And when you sold the company, what were the sales of the company?
0:10:50 > 0:10:5216 million.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56Right. And so you did that without any investment?
0:10:56 > 0:10:57Yep.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02I'll tell you what I'm thinking...
0:11:04 > 0:11:06..I think it's a neat idea.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10But you're going to be diluting an investor substantially by raising
0:11:10 > 0:11:12significant money and that's concerning.
0:11:15 > 0:11:17Look...
0:11:18 > 0:11:20..I will make you an offer.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30But I'll need to have a certain amount of equity for it to make any sense.
0:11:32 > 0:11:35And I'd probably be open to sharing this with another Dragon.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41So my offer is half the money, £40,000...
0:11:43 > 0:11:45..for 10% of the business.
0:11:46 > 0:11:48OK. Thank you for your offer.
0:11:51 > 0:11:55Tej Lalvani makes a move for the greeting card business.
0:11:55 > 0:12:00However, he's only offering half of the £80,000 the entrepreneur is
0:12:00 > 0:12:02asking for.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05Any deal requires another Dragon.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08But just two have yet to declare.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12Time for Peter Jones to put his cards on the table.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Andrew, you're the type of person I'd love to work with because
0:12:16 > 0:12:20I think it's good to work with somebody that who clearly has entrepreneurial flair, talent,
0:12:20 > 0:12:25been there, done it and actually is putting themselves on the line and having another go.
0:12:26 > 0:12:30But...I'm really concerned for you with this business.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36This is a very, very, very tough business to get right
0:12:36 > 0:12:39without a huge amount of capital behind you.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Andrew, I'm going to wish you well on your way and say that is the only reason why I'm out.
0:12:44 > 0:12:47But many, many congratulations on your previous success.
0:12:47 > 0:12:48Thank you. Thank you, Peter.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55Peter Jones decides past riches don't outweigh future risk
0:12:55 > 0:12:58and declines a deal.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01Only Jenny Campbell remains.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Her banking credentials could help to secure finance further down the line.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08Will she want in or opt out?
0:13:11 > 0:13:13So I guess I sit here, Andrew, thinking,
0:13:13 > 0:13:15come on, it's a drop in the ocean
0:13:15 > 0:13:17that money to you, and you've done it all before.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19Really, do you need someone?
0:13:19 > 0:13:21And I certainly don't like the small piece of equity.
0:13:26 > 0:13:28But I'd like to be part of this journey.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32- I'd love that, Jenny.- Because you've been so successful.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37And, you know, you buy the person first and foremost
0:13:37 > 0:13:40and you truly believe in this. And I like a good card.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46So I'm going to offer you half the money for 7.5%.
0:13:46 > 0:13:47Thank you, Jenny.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50Do you need to go and talk to the wall?
0:13:50 > 0:13:54No, not yet. I think that might be a bit later on.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56At the moment, there's not deal that even works,
0:13:56 > 0:14:00because at the moment, Jenny's on 7.5% and you're on ten.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03And I would like you both on 2.5 each.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06So what sort of deal can we structure that works for you guys
0:14:06 > 0:14:09and works for me as well?
0:14:10 > 0:14:11Well, I mean, look...
0:14:14 > 0:14:18What I can do is I could drop it down to 6%
0:14:18 > 0:14:19when the money was paid back.
0:14:21 > 0:14:23I would have to say no, that doesn't work for me.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29Anything more than 10% for me today is something that I'm
0:14:29 > 0:14:32very, very definite that I don't think we should do.
0:14:32 > 0:14:38- OK.- I think 10% is a good percentage and a good slug of equity in this business.
0:14:41 > 0:14:46Let's meet halfway. 8%, dropping down to 5.5% each, once the money is paid.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50I just don't think... I-I have to stick to my guns here.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53I think it has to be...
0:14:54 > 0:14:56Tell you what, let me have a think on that one.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59- Yeah, I think you should. - Yeah, I think...
0:14:59 > 0:15:02- Jenny, you would match that as well, would you?- Yes.
0:15:02 > 0:15:03Fine. All right.
0:15:06 > 0:15:12Tej Lalvani and Jenny Campbell's revised offer of a collective 16%,
0:15:12 > 0:15:16reducing down to 11 once their investment is repaid,
0:15:16 > 0:15:20is still more than the maximum the entrepreneur is willing to give away.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25Will he agree to the Dragons' terms or walk away from the deal?
0:15:27 > 0:15:29Tej, Jenny...
0:15:31 > 0:15:33..I would like to accept your offers.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35- Good decision.- Wow. - APPLAUSE
0:15:35 > 0:15:38After a battle of attrition in the Den,
0:15:38 > 0:15:44the vitamins boss and the banking kingpin unite to seal a deal.
0:15:44 > 0:15:49And the entrepreneur departs with the £80,000 investment he was seeking.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51The overall feeling is joy that it's finished.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53Boom!
0:15:53 > 0:15:55- VOICEOVER:- It's a lot more nerve-racking than you think, actually.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57You're right to push for the little bit extra,
0:15:57 > 0:16:00because you're going to be seriously diluted.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02I'm really excited to have Jenny and Tej on board.
0:16:02 > 0:16:07With their backgrounds, we will grow to a six and then hopefully go into
0:16:07 > 0:16:09£12 million business over the next few years.
0:16:14 > 0:16:18Another pair of entrepreneurs taking on the Dragons were partners
0:16:18 > 0:16:20Emma Blower and Nick Stacey,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23who are hoping to bring a bit of Christmas cheer into the Den with
0:16:23 > 0:16:27their very festive firm Magic Santa Letter,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30which delivers personalised letters to children,
0:16:30 > 0:16:33written and sent by Father Christmas himself.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35Santa apologises he can't make it here today,
0:16:35 > 0:16:40but Olivia the Elf is going to hand you all your own Magic Santa Letter.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43The couple were hoping for a company Christmas bonus...
0:16:43 > 0:16:47- Thank you.- ..in the way of a £75,000 investment.
0:16:47 > 0:16:49You left your favourite till last.
0:16:49 > 0:16:51- LAUGHTER - High five.
0:16:53 > 0:16:57Tej Lalvani wanted to investigate a clause in the contract.
0:16:57 > 0:16:59If I invest, do I get to meet Santa?
0:16:59 > 0:17:03We can't promise it. Obviously he's a busy man.
0:17:03 > 0:17:07The tall man in the Den was very pleased with his letter from the main man
0:17:07 > 0:17:10- in his workshop.- It's quite nice, it says, "Dear, Peter.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13- "You are my favourite Dragon."- Aww!
0:17:13 > 0:17:16- Oh! Come on.- That's not written in the letter.
0:17:16 > 0:17:17Some people are so needy!
0:17:18 > 0:17:22Deborah Meaden wanted to know about the structure of the business.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25Is Santa a shareholder?
0:17:25 > 0:17:26- No.- Right.
0:17:26 > 0:17:31He just overlooks it to ensure that obviously the magic of Christmas is
0:17:31 > 0:17:33- kept alive.- OK, good answer.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37But it seemed Mr Claus might have been doing a bit of moonlighting.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40I did hear there was a company in the US that did something very similar
0:17:40 > 0:17:44- to this.- There is another company which is santaletter.com.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47Santaletterdirect is UK a one.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50Touker Suleyman was ready to give Santa the sack.
0:17:50 > 0:17:55Could you license different characters, whether it's Peppa Pig,
0:17:55 > 0:17:58- Teletubbies?- This is what we are thinking, you know.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01- You were thinking what I was thinking?- Absolutely. - You sure about that?
0:18:01 > 0:18:06And in the end, it was more no-no-no, than ho-ho-ho.
0:18:06 > 0:18:09It's not a business that I see is going to take over the world.
0:18:09 > 0:18:11It is a seasonal business.
0:18:11 > 0:18:14- I'm out.- Thank you, guys. Thank you.- All the best.
0:18:14 > 0:18:16And the entrepreneurs exited the Den
0:18:16 > 0:18:20- to reunite with Santa's little helper.- Well done, Olivia.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22You did a fantastic job in there.
0:18:22 > 0:18:26Santa's obviously taken all of this onboard and I'm sure he'll come up
0:18:26 > 0:18:30with some really good ideas to help us push this forward over the next few years.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40Next up is Surrey-based inventor, Jack Hanauer,
0:18:40 > 0:18:44who's hoping his creation could become a Christmas family favourite.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48I've got a great product.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51I wouldn't have gone through this whole slog to get here if I didn't
0:18:51 > 0:18:52believe that.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56Whether the Dragons see that, we have to wait and see.
0:18:57 > 0:18:59This is a huge deal for me today.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02With one of the Dragons' help, the sky's the limit.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14Hello. I'm Jack and this is Trix.
0:19:14 > 0:19:19I'm looking for a £50,000 investment in return for a 20% share in the UK
0:19:19 > 0:19:22rights to the game, which is perfectly simple and perfectly fun -
0:19:22 > 0:19:25describe three words with only one.
0:19:25 > 0:19:26So the way it works...
0:19:26 > 0:19:27you lay out nine cards.
0:19:29 > 0:19:32And one player thinks of a clue to describe three.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35So if I said here, for example, spaghetti.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38Can you find the one card of each colour that I'm describing?
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Italy. Eat. Cook.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44Perfect. That's the essence of the game.
0:19:44 > 0:19:46- Did I just win?- You did.
0:19:46 > 0:19:47Yes!
0:19:47 > 0:19:50So, I launched the game in 2013.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53I have sold about 4,000 copies so far.
0:19:53 > 0:19:55I appreciate those aren't huge numbers,
0:19:55 > 0:19:59but that is just me, selling at markets, school fairs, that kind of thing.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02No advertising, no marketing budget whatsoever.
0:20:02 > 0:20:07So I've sold the international rights for a guaranteed minimum of 75,000,
0:20:07 > 0:20:12but I've kept the UK rights, I want to push the game forward here myself and that's why I'm here today.
0:20:12 > 0:20:13So enough talk, let's play.
0:20:17 > 0:20:21- Inventor Jack Hanauer hands out his product...- Thank you.
0:20:21 > 0:20:27..and offers to hand over 20% of his word game business in return for a
0:20:27 > 0:20:29£50,000 investment from the Dragons.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34So each round, nine new cards.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39One player thinks of a clue, the other players try and guess.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41So there I could say, treasure.
0:20:43 > 0:20:44Pirate. Find.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46- Island.- Perfect.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47- Did I win again?- You won again.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49- Yes!- So that's how it works.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54Deborah Meaden may be on a winning streak,
0:20:54 > 0:20:58but Peter Jones is first to impart some words of Dragon wisdom.
0:21:00 > 0:21:05Jack, I think that you'd get bored very quickly after playing it once or twice.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08No. No.
0:21:09 > 0:21:12I've been doing this for three years, I've seen the reaction of people.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14I also see different demographics.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17So on the whole, women get it quicker than men.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21And, actually, if there's ever a demographic of the person who's most hostile to it,
0:21:21 > 0:21:22it would actually be yourself.
0:21:22 > 0:21:27Men of a certain age, who come and look at it
0:21:27 > 0:21:29and think, "I'm under pressure."
0:21:29 > 0:21:34So you're saying a younger generation of middle-aged men...
0:21:34 > 0:21:36- What I'm saying...- ..don't get it?
0:21:39 > 0:21:41I think that's an absolute load of nonsense.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44Well, that's your opinion.
0:21:44 > 0:21:46No, it's not my opinion. I think that's just nonsense.
0:21:46 > 0:21:48It is, because I've been doing this for three years.
0:21:48 > 0:21:51You've doing it for three years and you've sold 4,000 games.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Yes, because... But it's all about getting it out there.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56You haven't got it out there.
0:21:59 > 0:22:00No, I haven't, that's why I'm here.
0:22:03 > 0:22:04This is not so much of a pitch,
0:22:04 > 0:22:06it's like an argument you'd have done the pub.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08I'm trying to answer the questions.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11I'm saying what I honestly think and what I've found from my three years
0:22:11 > 0:22:13- doing it.- But the thing is,
0:22:13 > 0:22:17you've spent three years doing it and you've not really done a lot.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21Even the way that you've positioned your product doesn't sell itself.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23Trix.
0:22:23 > 0:22:26That could be a magic box. It doesn't say what it does on the tin.
0:22:28 > 0:22:33Bertrand Russell said anything that can fit in a nutshell should stay there.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37- Who said that?- Bertrand Russell. - Who is that?- Philosopher.
0:22:37 > 0:22:41It doesn't really matter who said it, what matters is what he's saying.
0:22:41 > 0:22:45And that means that things are super, super-simple might appeal instantly,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48might seem great, but, actually, there's not much behind it.
0:22:48 > 0:22:53You know, you get this kind of cliche of the eccentric inventor
0:22:53 > 0:22:55and that's a bit borne out in the games industry.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58- OK, I don't want to go on the journey.- Can I finish...?
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Jack, no, I don't want you to finish the story, sorry.
0:23:01 > 0:23:06And I'm sorry to be really candid and rude, but I think we've got off on the wrong foot.
0:23:08 > 0:23:13A rare event in the den as Peter Jones calls a truce after
0:23:13 > 0:23:15a fractious opening exchange with the entrepreneur.
0:23:17 > 0:23:21Deborah Meaden is next to take up the question baton.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29Jack, you're oddly spiky.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31I genuinely apologise if that's how I come across.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34- That's not how I feel.- I don't want to be having this conversation,
0:23:34 > 0:23:36because it's actually a good, fun game.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39But I can tell you now, Peter's bang on.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42Trix is the wrong name for this.
0:23:42 > 0:23:46You'll confuse the consumer that it's something to do with magic.
0:23:46 > 0:23:50You've got to call it something that relates to the game itself.
0:23:50 > 0:23:54Maybe people find it hard to engage with. Well, they don't know what it is.
0:23:54 > 0:23:57And you've got to tell them what they're about to play.
0:23:59 > 0:24:05Deborah Meaden delivers another damning assessment of the word game's name.
0:24:06 > 0:24:11Now Touker Suleyman wants to shift the focus from names to numbers.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16You've sold 4,000 over four years?
0:24:16 > 0:24:20- Yeah.- So 1,000 sets a year.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22- About 20 a week? - OK, yeah.- Approximately.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25- What do they sell for? - It's £10 retail.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27- £10?- Mm-hm.- It's cheap.
0:24:27 > 0:24:28It is cheap.
0:24:28 > 0:24:32- You're doing £200 a week turnover. - Mm-hm.
0:24:32 > 0:24:36So what does it cost you in petrol, in mobile phone, in whatever,
0:24:36 > 0:24:39- to run your business?- Well, that's the point, I haven't put a lot of money into it, because...
0:24:39 > 0:24:44No, I'm not about putting money into it, I'm talking about what it costs you to live.
0:24:45 > 0:24:50Why didn't the people that bought the international rights come and help
0:24:50 > 0:24:52you fund that business? Because if you're successful,
0:24:52 > 0:24:53they're successful.
0:24:54 > 0:24:58- Have you approached them for any finance?- No.
0:24:58 > 0:25:01Like publishing, if someone publishes a book in one country,
0:25:01 > 0:25:04they're not going to help the other company publish it
0:25:04 > 0:25:07in their own country. I'm on my own.
0:25:08 > 0:25:13News that the owner of the game's international rights hasn't also
0:25:13 > 0:25:16chosen to invest has flummoxed Touker Suleyman.
0:25:16 > 0:25:22And Peter Jones is wondering why the global deal was ever brokered in the first place.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27You've sold the international rights for 75,000.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Why did you do that if this is such a big opportunity?
0:25:30 > 0:25:33Not 75,000. For a guaranteed minimum of 75,000.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35- A year?- No, no, not every year.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36That's over ten years.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40How many countries are there in the world?
0:25:41 > 0:25:44- I don't know.- What's the population of the world?
0:25:44 > 0:25:50- Something like 6 billion.- And you sold the rights to that for 75,000 US dollars.- No, I'll say it again.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52For a guaranteed minimum of 75,000.
0:25:52 > 0:25:54And how much have you received since?
0:25:54 > 0:25:58So I got the advance upfront for that which was about 3,000.
0:25:58 > 0:26:00And this person or company that you've done it with,
0:26:00 > 0:26:03are they likely to stay in business for that ten years
0:26:03 > 0:26:05to be able to pay you the money? Who have you done it with?
0:26:05 > 0:26:08Obviously, I'm not going to name names of my partners at this stage.
0:26:08 > 0:26:10I think that's sort of unfair to talk about them.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14Well, no, no, I think it's very fair, because you're coming here asking for investment
0:26:14 > 0:26:16- in your business, aren't you? - Yes, I am, yeah.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20- So, I'd like to know how well they're doing.- Mm-hm.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22- How well are they doing? - Um, it's early days,
0:26:22 > 0:26:24they've only had it out for about a year now, so...
0:26:24 > 0:26:26That's quite a long time, isn't it?
0:26:28 > 0:26:31- How have they done?- They haven't sold as many as I would've hoped.
0:26:31 > 0:26:34- How many have they sold? - I don't know the exact figure, actually, of that.
0:26:34 > 0:26:36I think it's something like 6,000.
0:26:38 > 0:26:42- But I'm looking at the bigger picture.- Well, I'm looking at the REAL picture.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46And what you're telling me is the fact that after 12 months,
0:26:46 > 0:26:48is that it hasn't sold.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51- Yeah, well...- That doesn't bode well for an investor like me.
0:26:53 > 0:26:55An entrepreneur entering the Den,
0:26:55 > 0:26:59having already handed over the global rights to his product,
0:26:59 > 0:27:01can be an entrepreneur walking into trouble.
0:27:03 > 0:27:07And Jenny Campbell wants to find out if Jack is willing to take on board
0:27:07 > 0:27:09the Dragons' advice.
0:27:13 > 0:27:15Jack, when you leave the Den today, with or without money,
0:27:15 > 0:27:18are you going to change the name of the game?
0:27:18 > 0:27:21- I'd have to think about it.- Oh, OK.
0:27:21 > 0:27:24OK, um, it looks like a box of shortbread to me.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26It needs to be changed.
0:27:26 > 0:27:30You're not really taking on board the feedback today, in my view,
0:27:30 > 0:27:34and I don't see you as an investable entrepreneur, I'm afraid.
0:27:34 > 0:27:35For me, the game's up.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39I'm not investing and, therefore, the one word is...
0:27:39 > 0:27:41- Out?- I'm out.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48Jenny Campbell plays the inventor at his own game and becomes the first
0:27:48 > 0:27:50Dragon to walk away from a deal.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55And now Touker Suleyman appears ready to state his position.
0:27:58 > 0:28:02When I'm going to invest, I look at the entrepreneur and say,
0:28:02 > 0:28:05first of all, is he investable? Can I work with him?
0:28:07 > 0:28:09But I find you very complacent.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12Just a load of excuses.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17So, I'm not going to invest
0:28:17 > 0:28:18and I'm out.
0:28:20 > 0:28:21OK.
0:28:25 > 0:28:28I'm not sure I agree with Touker on those things,
0:28:28 > 0:28:31but I do get to a similar end result.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35I think you get wrapped up inside your business,
0:28:35 > 0:28:40not quite understanding why everybody else doesn't get quite so enthused
0:28:40 > 0:28:42about it all as you are.
0:28:44 > 0:28:45For me, it's not an investment
0:28:45 > 0:28:50and I'm not sure you'd even enjoy having me as an investor alongside,
0:28:50 > 0:28:53because we'd be pulling in different directions.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56So, I'm sorry, Jack, but I won't be investing. I'm out.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01If you're not going to invest, can I just come back on a few points?
0:29:01 > 0:29:04No. Concentrate on your potential investors.
0:29:08 > 0:29:12Jack, you've been given feedback on the product.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14The least you should do is take it on board.
0:29:14 > 0:29:15I mean, I'm absolutely...
0:29:15 > 0:29:17I would absolutely work with you, I would sit down...
0:29:17 > 0:29:20I'm fully aware that I think I'm a good inventor,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23I'm fully aware that I have loads to learn in terms of business.
0:29:26 > 0:29:29Jack, if I invested in you...
0:29:29 > 0:29:31I'd have to be there every day,
0:29:31 > 0:29:33trying to help you and trying to tell you what to do
0:29:33 > 0:29:36and it would take too much of my time.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40So, no tricks, no games.
0:29:40 > 0:29:43- I'm out.- OK.
0:29:43 > 0:29:47Tej Lalvani becomes the fourth Dragon to decline the chance to take
0:29:47 > 0:29:50the board game into the boardroom.
0:29:50 > 0:29:56Only one Dragon now remains, but after two prickly exchanges already,
0:29:56 > 0:29:58will it be third time lucky for the entrepreneur?
0:30:02 > 0:30:04I really don't like the game, actually.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08It doesn't say what it does on the tin,
0:30:08 > 0:30:10I don't actually like playing it,
0:30:10 > 0:30:13and looking inside the box, with the contents, I think it's too small.
0:30:13 > 0:30:14I just don't like it.
0:30:17 > 0:30:19I can't invest in that.
0:30:21 > 0:30:22So, I'm going to say that I'm out.
0:30:24 > 0:30:25Thank you.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28- Good luck, Jack.- Good luck, Jack. - Good luck.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31Peter Jones has the final word on the game,
0:30:31 > 0:30:34and the entrepreneur leaves the Den
0:30:34 > 0:30:37without the £50,000 he was asking for.
0:30:37 > 0:30:38I'm not a natural businessperson.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41That's obviously something that
0:30:41 > 0:30:43I think I should work on. They didn't believe in the product.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45But I do think they've missed a trick.
0:30:51 > 0:30:54The Dragons have shown that if a business stands out...
0:30:54 > 0:30:56You're the type of person I'd love to work with.
0:30:56 > 0:30:57..then they will buy in.
0:30:57 > 0:30:59I'd like to be part of this journey.
0:30:59 > 0:31:03But as things hot up for the remaining entrepreneurs...
0:31:03 > 0:31:04That is telling me nothing.
0:31:04 > 0:31:08I don't believe that you've got a business that is investable.
0:31:08 > 0:31:10The sales are not there. Why isn't it selling?
0:31:10 > 0:31:13..they are not the only ones who are feeling the heat.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15Can I just finish what I'm going to say?
0:31:15 > 0:31:16Do I interrupt when you speak?
0:31:16 > 0:31:18No, but you just asked her not to listen, basically.
0:31:18 > 0:31:20Sorry, I'd like to finish what I'm going to say.
0:31:20 > 0:31:21Please.
0:31:25 > 0:31:27Next to enter the Den,
0:31:27 > 0:31:30two business partners from the West Midlands
0:31:30 > 0:31:32who have big ambitions for a business
0:31:32 > 0:31:34with very humble beginnings.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37- The product's great.- Yeah. - They'll love us.- Yeah, they will.
0:31:40 > 0:31:42I'm proud of the fact I've actually set something up from nothing.
0:31:44 > 0:31:46The business actually started on my kitchen table.
0:31:46 > 0:31:48So, I literally was making it by hand.
0:31:48 > 0:31:50Here we go.
0:31:50 > 0:31:54Catherine's put her life, almost, into this business.
0:31:54 > 0:31:56- Ready for this?- Good luck. - Good luck.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58And I support her fully.
0:32:08 > 0:32:13Hello, Dragons. My name's Catherine and I'm the founder of Simplyseedz.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16And I'm here with my business partner Paul
0:32:16 > 0:32:21to ask for £40,000 investment for 20% equity in our company.
0:32:21 > 0:32:26Simplyseedz is a range of natural breakfast and snacking products.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29Our products are refined sugar-free and low in cholesterol.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33Our porridges are a blend of British oats,
0:32:33 > 0:32:35pumpkin and sunflower seeds, and fruit,
0:32:35 > 0:32:39with the sugar content being measured purely from the fruit only.
0:32:39 > 0:32:43We also make a range of seed mixes for healthier snacking.
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Recently, we've launched the porridge on Ocado and Amazon.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51We also sell directly to the consumers
0:32:51 > 0:32:53on our website and social media.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56We would like to take your questions,
0:32:56 > 0:32:58and also have a little taste of our products.
0:33:00 > 0:33:03Hoping the Dragons have a hunger to invest in their breakfast
0:33:03 > 0:33:05and snacking products...
0:33:05 > 0:33:07- I hope you've got an appetite! - Thank you.
0:33:07 > 0:33:11..are Catherine Zielinski and her business partner Paul Lawson.
0:33:11 > 0:33:13Thank you very much.
0:33:13 > 0:33:17They are willing to hand over 20% of their food enterprise
0:33:17 > 0:33:21in return for a £40,000 boost to their company coffers.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23Oh, thank you.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27Deborah Meaden wants to get a taste of what makes this business unique.
0:33:30 > 0:33:36Can I be, um, clear on why you've entered this market?
0:33:36 > 0:33:37So, what gap did you see?
0:33:37 > 0:33:41Because there are plenty of porridge pots...
0:33:41 > 0:33:45- Yes, there are.- And there are plenty of seed businesses.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47I saw that there was a gap in the market,
0:33:47 > 0:33:51in terms of a healthier alternative snacking product.
0:33:51 > 0:33:52The product I make are flavoured
0:33:52 > 0:33:55and they've got a little bit more interesting, a little bit more bite.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58OK, right, let's concentrate on the porridge, then.
0:33:58 > 0:34:00- OK.- In terms of its sugar content,
0:34:00 > 0:34:04how does this compare to another fruited porridge?
0:34:04 > 0:34:08OK, so, that one is 10% sugar content.
0:34:08 > 0:34:1011%, you're right.
0:34:10 > 0:34:11- Close!- OK, yeah.
0:34:11 > 0:34:19And, um, typically, they range between 25 to 30% in a porridge pot.
0:34:19 > 0:34:23As far as we are aware, there is not another flavoured porridge
0:34:23 > 0:34:26with the same level of sugar content at the moment, the market.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29So, you think that you are offering
0:34:29 > 0:34:32the lowest sugar content for a high-end porridge, right.
0:34:32 > 0:34:34For a high-end flavoured porridge.
0:34:36 > 0:34:41Deborah Meaden establishes the USP of the porridge pot proposition.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46Peter Jones now wants to find out if the organic company
0:34:46 > 0:34:48is in good financial health.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52How long has this business been going?
0:34:52 > 0:34:56The business was started... We started to trade 18 months ago.
0:34:56 > 0:34:59So, the last 12 months' performance, then, what was your turnover?
0:34:59 > 0:35:04Um, for the first year's trading, um, we had a turnover of £18,000,
0:35:04 > 0:35:07with a loss of £19,000.
0:35:08 > 0:35:12And for the last seven months, we've had a turnover of £17,000,
0:35:12 > 0:35:17with a gross profit of £4,000, but still with a loss of £900.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20These seeds aren't growing for you, are they?
0:35:20 > 0:35:24Not at the moment, but there is a lot of interest.
0:35:24 > 0:35:25Well, there's not.
0:35:26 > 0:35:28What's going wrong?
0:35:28 > 0:35:32The reason being is that, um, there is only myself in the business,
0:35:32 > 0:35:33on it full time.
0:35:34 > 0:35:37- Paul, what do you do? - I'm mentoring Catherine,
0:35:37 > 0:35:39I also do the warehousing as well.
0:35:39 > 0:35:42And what mentoring? What's your background, Paul?
0:35:42 > 0:35:44My background, um, for the last 25 years,
0:35:44 > 0:35:46I've started up three companies,
0:35:46 > 0:35:49I've had an engineering cleaning company,
0:35:49 > 0:35:54I've also got a steel belt company and nine months ago,
0:35:54 > 0:35:57I started up a bespoke stainless steel swimming pool company.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00Wow.
0:36:00 > 0:36:01Have you made a lot of money?
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Yes, I've made enough money.
0:36:04 > 0:36:05How much?
0:36:06 > 0:36:08Erm...
0:36:08 > 0:36:11- Enough.- 1 million?
0:36:11 > 0:36:13Yeah. Yeah.
0:36:13 > 0:36:15OK. And Catherine, how much did he invest?
0:36:15 > 0:36:17- Erm, 10...- £10,000.- £10,000.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22Why... Why only £10,000?
0:36:22 > 0:36:25Because I didn't know Catherine at the time,
0:36:25 > 0:36:28and I couldn't commit all of my time to the business.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34So, when you took Paul on board as an investor,
0:36:34 > 0:36:36what, 12 months or so ago?
0:36:36 > 0:36:41- Yes.- You took Paul's £10,000, then gave him how much equity?
0:36:41 > 0:36:45- 10%.- So, you valued your business 12 months ago...
0:36:45 > 0:36:47- Uh-huh.- ..at £100,000.
0:36:47 > 0:36:50Today, you're valuing it at £200,000,
0:36:50 > 0:36:53even though your sales have not progressed.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55How does that stack up, in your mind?
0:36:56 > 0:37:01The valuation is based upon the fact that we now have a brand,
0:37:01 > 0:37:03we have a trademark,
0:37:03 > 0:37:07we have a quality product that is being enjoyed by our customers.
0:37:07 > 0:37:09- By not enough people. - But not by enough customers,
0:37:09 > 0:37:10and we need more people to know...
0:37:10 > 0:37:13But the brand's not known, it's not selling.
0:37:13 > 0:37:14Yeah. We need to be able to...
0:37:14 > 0:37:17You still haven't told me what's doubled the valuation
0:37:17 > 0:37:18of your business in 12 months.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21Why are you not asking the investors
0:37:21 > 0:37:23to invest at least the same valuation?
0:37:23 > 0:37:25Or less, because you haven't moved forward?
0:37:26 > 0:37:28OK, yeah. I take your point, yeah.
0:37:30 > 0:37:34The entrepreneurs fail to sweeten the Dragons with their valuation
0:37:34 > 0:37:36of their porridge business.
0:37:37 > 0:37:41Tej Lalvani's background is vitamins and health care.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45Does he find the natural food firm a palatable investment opportunity?
0:37:48 > 0:37:52I actually love porridge, and I love your packaging,
0:37:52 > 0:37:53I think it's fantastic.
0:37:54 > 0:37:56I actually disagree with Jenny,
0:37:56 > 0:37:58I'm not too concerned about your valuation, you know,
0:37:58 > 0:38:01if it's a £200,000 company,
0:38:01 > 0:38:02I don't think you should be beaten up on that.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06You've got the differentiation point in terms of low sugar.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09- Mmm.- Do you have a plain flavour?
0:38:09 > 0:38:12No. No, but it's something we would like to introduce.
0:38:12 > 0:38:14I actually like your seeds.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16We're actually very excited about these.
0:38:16 > 0:38:19We've been approached by further investors regarding the seeds.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22No, I like them. It's just that you're...
0:38:22 > 0:38:23you're very early.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27Guys, can I ask, who owns "Simplyseeds"
0:38:27 > 0:38:29with an S on the end of it?
0:38:29 > 0:38:30- With an S?- With a S.
0:38:30 > 0:38:34Oh, with an S? Erm, a flour producer.
0:38:35 > 0:38:37There is a reason for the Z.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39- It's my surname. - Oh, what's your surname?
0:38:39 > 0:38:41- Zielinski.- Zielinski.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44- Yeah.- Do you see that might cause a bit of an issue, though,
0:38:44 > 0:38:47particularly when you're looking on the online marketplaces?
0:38:47 > 0:38:51Erm, we do need to do some improvements to get our hits up.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55But you put in "Simplyseedz" into Google,
0:38:55 > 0:38:58you'll find us on the first 23.
0:38:58 > 0:39:02Good! Do you know what? That is telling me nothing!
0:39:02 > 0:39:05Most people will spell it with an S on the end of it,
0:39:05 > 0:39:08and you will have the devil's job then finding you.
0:39:08 > 0:39:10Had you not thought about that?
0:39:10 > 0:39:14Yes, I have, yes, I have thought about that, and it can be...
0:39:14 > 0:39:16I suppose it's kind of...
0:39:16 > 0:39:19It's a little bit quirky in terms of the Z being on the end.
0:39:19 > 0:39:20It's not that quirky.
0:39:21 > 0:39:22OK.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26I think you built yourself a real problem with that branding.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29So, I'm afraid for me, it's not an investment, so I'm out.
0:39:32 > 0:39:36A Z in the product name leaves Deborah Meaden asking why.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38And she ends her interest in the deal.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43And Jenny Campbell is ready to give her verdict
0:39:43 > 0:39:45on the porridge pair's pitch.
0:39:48 > 0:39:51I think you do probably have something here as a little business.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54It's just seeing the scalability of that is really quite difficult.
0:39:54 > 0:39:58And I think you lack a bit of focus on how to achieve that scale.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02And so, for that reason, every good wish, but I am out.
0:40:02 > 0:40:03Thank you very much.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08For me, you've got a seed of an idea,
0:40:08 > 0:40:10but it's not going to grow into a big business.
0:40:10 > 0:40:12And I think that's a problem.
0:40:13 > 0:40:15It's not a business that I could see
0:40:15 > 0:40:17- that I could make any money out of by investing.- OK.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20But I wish you the very best, but I'm going to say I'm out.
0:40:23 > 0:40:27Two more Dragons find the food company's proposal hard to swallow.
0:40:29 > 0:40:34Has porridge enthusiast Tej Lalvani been tempted by the business?
0:40:35 > 0:40:38As I said, the packaging is great,
0:40:38 > 0:40:40I love what you've done with the products.
0:40:42 > 0:40:43But I just don't love your numbers.
0:40:47 > 0:40:48Yeah, I mean, the numbers aren't great,
0:40:48 > 0:40:50but we know there's a lot of opportunity.
0:40:50 > 0:40:52In terms of the interest that we're now getting...
0:40:52 > 0:40:55But if there is opportunity, your sales should speak for themselves.
0:40:57 > 0:40:59How do you plan to increase your distribution?
0:41:01 > 0:41:05I think 7,500 units we sold in the first year of trading last year.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07We've managed to double that so far this year.
0:41:07 > 0:41:12We only brought Ocado online and Amazon five months ago.
0:41:12 > 0:41:15And how's it doing on Ocado, say, monthly?
0:41:15 > 0:41:18In the last five months, we've done about...
0:41:18 > 0:41:21Well, we've done just under 2,500 sales.
0:41:21 > 0:41:22So, how much on Amazon have you sold?
0:41:22 > 0:41:24£900 on Amazon.
0:41:26 > 0:41:29Your sales are not there, and that just tells me something - that,
0:41:29 > 0:41:30why isn't it selling?
0:41:32 > 0:41:36The demand is not there. And as an investor, if I put in £40,000,
0:41:36 > 0:41:39I don't see I'm going to get it back.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41So, this is not for me.
0:41:41 > 0:41:42I'm out.
0:41:44 > 0:41:48Tej Lalvani decides investment is off the menu.
0:41:49 > 0:41:54But one Dragon remains, and he's been unusually quiet until now.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01Catherine, I don't think...
0:42:01 > 0:42:04you should take any of the comments today to heart.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06Oh, excuse me, I hope she seriously...
0:42:06 > 0:42:09I've only been trying to help, I hope you really take them to heart.
0:42:09 > 0:42:12All... Yeah, all the feedback is really important to me.
0:42:12 > 0:42:13Otherwise I'm wasting my breath.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16Can I just finish what I'm going to say? Do I interrupt when you...
0:42:16 > 0:42:18You've just asked her not to listen, basically.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21I'd like to finish what I'm going to say. Please? OK?
0:42:21 > 0:42:26So, I feel that you are...
0:42:26 > 0:42:30the right person, maybe in the wrong product area.
0:42:31 > 0:42:36But I don't believe that you've got a business, as far as I'm concerned,
0:42:36 > 0:42:37that is investable.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42So, for that reason, I'm out.
0:42:42 > 0:42:43OK, thank you.
0:42:45 > 0:42:46- Good luck.- Thank you. - Thanks very much.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49Touker Suleyman warms to the entrepreneur,
0:42:49 > 0:42:53but the offering leaves him cold, and he declines a deal.
0:42:54 > 0:42:57The duo leave the Den empty-handed.
0:42:57 > 0:43:00You did fantastically well.
0:43:00 > 0:43:02- I didn't.- There's not a lot we could have said differently.
0:43:02 > 0:43:05We were very honest and open with the figures.
0:43:06 > 0:43:07Never mind, Catherine.
0:43:07 > 0:43:10- We'll get the investment. - We will. We will.
0:43:10 > 0:43:12I think if she came in with a different product,
0:43:12 > 0:43:14that was a niche in the market,
0:43:14 > 0:43:17that you saw growth in, we would have invested.
0:43:17 > 0:43:19How come you're being all nice all of a sudden?
0:43:26 > 0:43:28Last to enter the Den and take on the Dragons
0:43:28 > 0:43:32are three brothers from Leicester, who have a product
0:43:32 > 0:43:36that could be the perfect gift for Father Christmas himself.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45There's a really great symmetry that works between us.
0:43:46 > 0:43:48We don't really have bad days in the office.
0:43:50 > 0:43:53Going in with my brothers today means the world to me,
0:43:53 > 0:43:54and just having them by my side
0:43:54 > 0:43:57makes me feel really confident that we can get investment.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09Hello, Dragons. My name is Keval.
0:44:09 > 0:44:11These are my brothers, Kunal and Savan.
0:44:11 > 0:44:17We're also known as Unruly, Scratchy and Patchy.
0:44:17 > 0:44:20We are the founders of a company called Mo Bro's.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24Mo Bro's is one of the UK's leading men's grooming retailers,
0:44:24 > 0:44:27focusing on beards and moustaches.
0:44:27 > 0:44:30I had an unbelievably wild beard.
0:44:30 > 0:44:31Some mornings,
0:44:31 > 0:44:34I thought I'd woke up and somehow I'd managed to sleep with a bear.
0:44:34 > 0:44:38I tried to grow my beard, but it just became really itchy.
0:44:38 > 0:44:40And my beard was thin and patchy, and nothing really to speak about.
0:44:40 > 0:44:43We then started to work on these problems.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46I went and found products that would tame the wildest of beards.
0:44:46 > 0:44:49I discovered oils that would stop any itching.
0:44:49 > 0:44:51And I found ingredients that helped my facial hair
0:44:51 > 0:44:53look more visible, thicker and fuller.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56Today, we are very proud of our beards.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58What started as three brothers
0:44:58 > 0:45:03we now consider to be 200,000 Mo Bro's all around the world.
0:45:03 > 0:45:07Within three years of trading, we have sold to over 78 countries,
0:45:07 > 0:45:09and we have sold to eight major airlines.
0:45:10 > 0:45:14Today, Dragons, we are seeking an investment of £150,000
0:45:14 > 0:45:17in return for a 5% equity stake in our business.
0:45:17 > 0:45:20So, we've brought some samples for you guys today.
0:45:20 > 0:45:21We'd just like to bring them over, it that's OK.
0:45:23 > 0:45:28A well-groomed pitch from Scratchy, Patchy and Unruly, aka Kunal,
0:45:28 > 0:45:31Savan and Keval Dattani.
0:45:31 > 0:45:33- Thank you, Scratchy.- Thanks, cheers.
0:45:35 > 0:45:40They're hoping to prise a sizeable £150,000 out of the Dragon's purses
0:45:40 > 0:45:44in return for a 5% stake in their male grooming company.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46Touker Suleyman is first
0:45:46 > 0:45:49to comb through the bearded brothers' business.
0:45:53 > 0:45:54- Hi, guys.- Hi, Touker.
0:45:54 > 0:46:00It was a good pitch, however, you've come in with a very, erm...
0:46:00 > 0:46:02- itchy valuation.- Yeah.
0:46:02 > 0:46:05- £3 million?- Yes.
0:46:05 > 0:46:08So, tell me your journey with your numbers.
0:46:08 > 0:46:12In year one we had a revenue of £392,000.
0:46:12 > 0:46:14In year two, we tripled the size of our revenue,
0:46:14 > 0:46:18and increased to £1,074,000.
0:46:18 > 0:46:22In the last 12 months we're on target reach a revenue of
0:46:22 > 0:46:24just under £1.3 million.
0:46:25 > 0:46:29And a net of £496,000.
0:46:29 > 0:46:30Impressive figures.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35Guys, you all put on this little innocent look,
0:46:35 > 0:46:37but I don't think you're that innocent in business.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39I mean, you're drivers.
0:46:41 > 0:46:44So, you've turned over 2.6 million since you started?
0:46:44 > 0:46:47- That's correct. - What's your largest customer?
0:46:47 > 0:46:49So, just eBay for example,
0:46:49 > 0:46:52in the last 24 months we generated a revenue of £1 million.
0:46:52 > 0:46:551 million, so nearly 30% of your business.
0:46:55 > 0:46:56Yes, exactly, yes.
0:46:58 > 0:46:59That's a problem.
0:47:02 > 0:47:04Yeah, we're trying to, we understand,
0:47:04 > 0:47:07in the long term we're trying to get away from selling on eBay alone,
0:47:07 > 0:47:10and realise that we actually need to get away from that
0:47:10 > 0:47:12and create our own website.
0:47:13 > 0:47:17The beard-loving brethren demonstrate a willingness
0:47:17 > 0:47:20to adapt and diversify - traits that tend to delight a Dragon.
0:47:22 > 0:47:25But Jenny Campbell is wondering if return to sender
0:47:25 > 0:47:28might be needed for her Christmas delivery.
0:47:32 > 0:47:34Guys, I'm slightly perturbed,
0:47:34 > 0:47:37I've got a gift box of men's grooming with Jenny on the top,
0:47:37 > 0:47:41and a moustache wax and beard oil.
0:47:41 > 0:47:44I'm not quite sure where I'm going to hide the box,
0:47:44 > 0:47:46maybe I'll alter the name to Terry instead of Jenny or something.
0:47:48 > 0:47:50We got quite quickly into a lot of detail,
0:47:50 > 0:47:51but I'm interested in your vision.
0:47:53 > 0:47:55What's your endgame for this business?
0:47:56 > 0:47:58That's a very good question.
0:47:58 > 0:48:00The truthful answer is that we are in very early days.
0:48:00 > 0:48:02Not really, it's three years old.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04We want these products to be accessible
0:48:04 > 0:48:06to everyone all around the world.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08We're not really planning to stop until we...
0:48:10 > 0:48:13This could be a 40-year-old business like Tej's business,
0:48:13 > 0:48:14- is what you foresee?- Well...
0:48:14 > 0:48:17You've got families, you've got sons coming through the business,
0:48:17 > 0:48:20- there will be seven of you in due course.- Mo Bros and sons.
0:48:20 > 0:48:23Yes, that would be very nice.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28Guys, hats off to having a family business.
0:48:28 > 0:48:31I come from a family business background
0:48:31 > 0:48:32and it has a lot of challenges,
0:48:32 > 0:48:37of course, but you chip in and work together to get the same goal.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40- Yeah, sure.- What is your cost price of the kit,
0:48:40 > 0:48:42and how much does it retail for?
0:48:42 > 0:48:45That kit that you have in front of you, the cost is £8,
0:48:45 > 0:48:48and we retail that kit with the personalisation for £45.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51And how much have you guys put in the business so far?
0:48:51 > 0:48:54We started with £750 each.
0:48:54 > 0:48:56Just between two of us brothers.
0:48:56 > 0:48:57So £1,500.
0:48:57 > 0:49:01- Yeah.- Total investment and now you're doing 1.3 million in sales.
0:49:02 > 0:49:03That's pretty amazing.
0:49:05 > 0:49:11The CEO of a £300 million family business recognises the commercial
0:49:11 > 0:49:13potential of the band of brothers.
0:49:14 > 0:49:18But it appears Touker Suleyman now has a confession to make.
0:49:20 > 0:49:22I want to show my card, guys.
0:49:23 > 0:49:26You know I own a brand called Halls and Curtis.
0:49:26 > 0:49:31We are in a development stage of creating grooming products
0:49:31 > 0:49:35that may conflict. Therefore I'm not going to invest. I'm out.
0:49:35 > 0:49:37- Thank you, Touker.- Yeah.
0:49:39 > 0:49:44Touker Suleyman recognises a problem and avoids a potential clash
0:49:44 > 0:49:47with his own brand by exiting the negotiations.
0:49:49 > 0:49:54Does Deborah Meaden think the dapper directors are a smart proposition?
0:49:55 > 0:49:57This is a very odd one for me.
0:49:58 > 0:50:03I love that you started with 750.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06750, and here we are with a business that isn't just
0:50:06 > 0:50:10turning over 1.3 million, it's making really good profits.
0:50:13 > 0:50:17But actually, I don't really, I don't feel it.
0:50:18 > 0:50:20I don't use it, I don't know,
0:50:20 > 0:50:22there's something missing in my piece.
0:50:22 > 0:50:23So...
0:50:27 > 0:50:29God, they're stopping me saying this,
0:50:29 > 0:50:31they are stopping me saying it.
0:50:42 > 0:50:44- I feel my beard growing... - Yeah, he's itching it.
0:50:44 > 0:50:45..as I'm sitting here.
0:50:49 > 0:50:50OK, guys...
0:50:55 > 0:50:56I'm going to make you an offer.
0:50:58 > 0:51:00But it will be for half of the money.
0:51:01 > 0:51:04And I want 12.5% of the business.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07- All right, OK. Thank you. - Thank you, Deborah.
0:51:09 > 0:51:13The beard-beautifying enterprise grows on Deborah Meaden,
0:51:13 > 0:51:17who becomes the first Dragon to make a move for the business.
0:51:18 > 0:51:22Tej Lalvani now wants to state his position on the company.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27OK, I'll tell you where I am, guys.
0:51:28 > 0:51:31I think you've got an interesting business.
0:51:31 > 0:51:35And I think it needs some direction in terms of building your brand,
0:51:35 > 0:51:37getting customers coming to you,
0:51:37 > 0:51:40a part of them searching on eBay or Amazon.
0:51:40 > 0:51:41That's something I could do.
0:51:41 > 0:51:44So, I'm prepared to make you guys an offer.
0:51:46 > 0:51:51I'll offer you the full money, £150,000, for...
0:51:54 > 0:51:55..20% of the business.
0:51:55 > 0:51:58But, I will drop it down to 10%
0:51:58 > 0:52:02when I get my money back within two years.
0:52:02 > 0:52:03And, I could also be prepared
0:52:03 > 0:52:06to share it with another Dragon if they're interested.
0:52:06 > 0:52:08OK. Thanks for the offer.
0:52:11 > 0:52:16Tej Lalvani likes the look of the facial hair firm and tables a bid.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21Will Peter Jones also want a cut of the business?
0:52:24 > 0:52:27What you've created in two and a half years
0:52:27 > 0:52:29is nothing short of fantastic.
0:52:30 > 0:52:36However, this market is very competitive.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39You really need e-commerce distribution.
0:52:40 > 0:52:42The great thing is I have an e-commerce company
0:52:42 > 0:52:45that is very good. And we do some of the world's global brands,
0:52:45 > 0:52:47I've also got distribution.
0:52:48 > 0:52:53So...I'm going to make you an offer.
0:52:55 > 0:52:59And I'm going to offer you all of the money...
0:52:59 > 0:53:00but I'm going to say 25%.
0:53:02 > 0:53:06And the reason why I'm going to say 25% is because I like the fact that
0:53:06 > 0:53:07you are the Three Musketeers.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11And we could be the Four Musketeers.
0:53:11 > 0:53:12We definitely could.
0:53:12 > 0:53:17That being said, I am willing potentially to share...
0:53:17 > 0:53:22and go down to 12.5% and we become the five musketeers.
0:53:22 > 0:53:24- Brilliant, sir.- Thank you. - Thank you for the offer.
0:53:28 > 0:53:30Peter Jones gets his D'Artagnan on,
0:53:30 > 0:53:32and swashbuckles his way to an offer.
0:53:34 > 0:53:39But it appears Jenny Campbell still has some concerns over the brothers'
0:53:39 > 0:53:41long-term business strategy.
0:53:42 > 0:53:43This is really hard, guys.
0:53:43 > 0:53:45And it's hard because to turbo-boost this business,
0:53:45 > 0:53:49it's going to get a whole lot more complex than it is now.
0:53:49 > 0:53:53This is almost the - if I can say - the easy stage that you've done.
0:53:54 > 0:53:59You've run it as three brothers and done it via mostly online.
0:53:59 > 0:54:02And now you're talking about possibly going global.
0:54:03 > 0:54:05And that is really, really quite different.
0:54:10 > 0:54:12I am going to make you an offer.
0:54:14 > 0:54:15But there's a lot to do,
0:54:15 > 0:54:18and therefore my offer comes on the basis of a share.
0:54:18 > 0:54:25So I would be prepared to offer you £75,000 for 10%,
0:54:25 > 0:54:27reducing to 5% if fully repaid.
0:54:29 > 0:54:30OK, thank you.
0:54:31 > 0:54:34Jenny Campbell joins the party and makes an offer.
0:54:34 > 0:54:37- Do you mind if we take a...? - I think you should.
0:54:39 > 0:54:42This is where three heads are better than one.
0:54:45 > 0:54:49The bearded trio now have a quartet of offers on the table.
0:54:49 > 0:54:54Tej Lalvani wants 20% of the company but will hand back half of that
0:54:54 > 0:54:55if his money is repaid.
0:54:59 > 0:55:03Peter Jones is seeking a hefty 25%,
0:55:03 > 0:55:06but both have nodded towards a shared deal.
0:55:06 > 0:55:07That's four times what we've asked for.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11Whilst Deborah Meaden and Jenny Campbell
0:55:11 > 0:55:16have both made half offers for 12.5% and 10% respectively.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18- He'll come down, he'll come down. - You sure?
0:55:18 > 0:55:21Will the brothers be happy to give up a sizeable chunk
0:55:21 > 0:55:23of their company to bag a Dragon?
0:55:27 > 0:55:29Guys, really appreciate your offers.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34We came with 10% as our top figure.
0:55:34 > 0:55:37That would release our subsidy.
0:55:37 > 0:55:38We're a lot more than that.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42We think that there is a lot of value
0:55:42 > 0:55:44that Dragons can add to our business.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47We believe that having two Dragons on board
0:55:47 > 0:55:48will be even more beneficial.
0:55:50 > 0:55:51We don't want to confuse anything
0:55:51 > 0:55:54by having a buy-back further down the line. I think we wanted
0:55:54 > 0:55:56to keep it very straightforward.
0:55:57 > 0:56:03So would Peter and Tej, would you consider 10% each...
0:56:03 > 0:56:05for £75,000 each?
0:56:11 > 0:56:14Sorry, are you only talking to Tej and Peter here?
0:56:14 > 0:56:16- Yes.- Apologies, yes.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20OK. I'm out.
0:56:21 > 0:56:24I'm really sorry, guys, I won't be investing.
0:56:24 > 0:56:25I'm out.
0:56:31 > 0:56:32If you're happy with it, I'm happy with it.
0:56:36 > 0:56:37I'm happy with it.
0:56:39 > 0:56:40- Yeah?- Yeah?- Yeah.
0:56:40 > 0:56:42OK. Guys, thank you for your offers.
0:56:42 > 0:56:44And we'd like to take you both on board.
0:56:44 > 0:56:46- Great.- Right. Great.
0:56:49 > 0:56:54The three brothers seal a deal and bring to the fold a duo of Dragons.
0:56:54 > 0:56:57There's one condition though - you guys have to both grow your beards.
0:56:59 > 0:57:03And they leave the Den with the £150,000 they were seeking.
0:57:05 > 0:57:07Tej and Peter, welcome to the brotherhood.
0:57:07 > 0:57:10We can't wait to start working with you.
0:57:10 > 0:57:12I look forward to seeing the beards, guys.
0:57:12 > 0:57:14I know my wife's not going to be too happy, growing a beard.
0:57:14 > 0:57:19What began as a great family business is now going to go global,
0:57:19 > 0:57:20so be prepared.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29It may be the season for giving, but in the Den,
0:57:29 > 0:57:32there's always some give-and-take to reach an agreement.
0:57:32 > 0:57:36In this case, Tej Lalvani and Peter Jones wrapped up a deal
0:57:36 > 0:57:38and can now throw away their razors.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40Well, business may be everything here,
0:57:40 > 0:57:44but it's time for the Dragons to take a little time out
0:57:44 > 0:57:46and enjoy a well-earned festive break.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50- I think we've got a winner. - Coming up next time...
0:57:50 > 0:57:52I'd be careful what you say.
0:57:53 > 0:57:55You've made a fatal error.
0:57:55 > 0:57:57How many have you sold, John?
0:57:57 > 0:57:58I haven't actually sold any.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01You haven't shown the business acumen that comes with this.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03I am honestly, genuinely stunned.
0:58:04 > 0:58:07- I'm the Dragon for you.- I think you've got a great product.
0:58:07 > 0:58:11I'm going to make you an offer, but I'm going to be greedy.
0:58:11 > 0:58:12You've gone 30, 25.
0:58:12 > 0:58:14Cos I don't want you to have it!
0:58:14 > 0:58:16I am so sorry but I'm going to pass out.