0:00:25 > 0:00:27These are the Dragons,
0:00:27 > 0:00:31five of Britain's most wealthy and enterprising business leaders.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35Over the coming weeks, they'll make or break the dreams
0:00:35 > 0:00:39of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:40 > 0:00:45If I was going to invest, I'd want a material part of the business.
0:00:45 > 0:00:48You spent no time at all, no time at all,
0:00:48 > 0:00:50telling us where the business was.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Giving you advice and giving you money,
0:00:53 > 0:00:55and for 20 percent, doesn't stack up.
0:00:55 > 0:00:58I have never invested in a business
0:00:58 > 0:01:01and waited five years for it to start making money.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04It's a long, hard road.
0:01:05 > 0:01:07Think about it.
0:01:10 > 0:01:15The multi-millionaire investors have each built up their fortunes from scratch.
0:01:17 > 0:01:20Hotel and health-club owner, Duncan Bannatyne,
0:01:20 > 0:01:23leisure-industry expert Deborah Meaden...
0:01:24 > 0:01:27..retail magnate Theo Paphitis...
0:01:28 > 0:01:30..telecoms giant Peter Jones...
0:01:32 > 0:01:36..and Hilary Devey, who made her millions in the haulage industry.
0:01:37 > 0:01:40The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43the commitment and the cash ready to invest -
0:01:43 > 0:01:45but only in the right business.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs
0:01:48 > 0:01:50walk away with their money?
0:01:58 > 0:02:00Welcome to the Dragons' Den.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03We have five self-made multi-millionaires
0:02:03 > 0:02:07ready to invest their own money in the best entrepreneurs
0:02:07 > 0:02:09and the most profitable business ideas.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13For those that come before them, it's a challenge and an opportunity,
0:02:13 > 0:02:16especially in these tough economic times.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20First in the den is former actor Darren Maddison
0:02:20 > 0:02:22and fellow director Helen Wright, from Lincolnshire.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25They're putting on a show for the Dragons,
0:02:25 > 0:02:29but will the multi-millionaires find a successful business behind the scenes?
0:02:53 > 0:02:56- Hello. My name's Darren Maddison. - My name's Helen Wright.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59We are equal partners in Polka Dot Pantomimes.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01We hope you enjoy our pitch.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03LIVELY MUSIC PLAYS
0:03:12 > 0:03:15- Hello, everyone! - Hello, Buttons!
0:03:15 > 0:03:18- Buttons! Oh, Buttons! - Oh, it's the girl of my dreams,
0:03:18 > 0:03:21- my very own Deborah Meaden! - There you are!
0:03:21 > 0:03:24Oh, Buttons, if only I could find a handsome prince
0:03:24 > 0:03:27or a fairy godmother who would be willing to invest
0:03:27 > 0:03:30£100,000 in return for ten percent of the company!
0:03:30 > 0:03:33Oh, then we really could expand the business,
0:03:33 > 0:03:37- and I could go to the ball! - No chance of that round here.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40- Oh, yes, there is! - Oh, no, there isn't!
0:03:40 > 0:03:42- Oh, yes, there is!- Really?
0:03:42 > 0:03:44- Where?- There!
0:03:44 > 0:03:47Oh, they're behind you!
0:03:47 > 0:03:48Cinderella!
0:03:48 > 0:03:51- Cinderella! - Oh, no, it's Minger and Munter!
0:03:51 > 0:03:53Quick, leg it!
0:03:53 > 0:03:55CHILDREN BOO
0:03:55 > 0:03:58Oh, shut your faces!
0:03:58 > 0:04:01Here, sis, look at all those men out there!
0:04:01 > 0:04:04We might be able to get ourselves a date.
0:04:04 > 0:04:06I'm going to wear my lottery dress.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09My numbers come up, I'm sure to get a rollover.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Here, Cinderella! Any news of an investor?
0:04:12 > 0:04:16No, I'm afraid not! Oh, if only we could find someone to invest,
0:04:16 > 0:04:19then we could all live happily ever after.
0:04:19 > 0:04:22Ooh! Hello, boys and girls.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24Fairy Fortune here!
0:04:24 > 0:04:27So, boys and girls, what do you think?
0:04:27 > 0:04:31Should the Dragons now invest? Is it a worthwhile gamble?
0:04:31 > 0:04:34- The answer, of course, is...- Yes!
0:04:34 > 0:04:37CHILDREN CHEER
0:04:38 > 0:04:41Last year, one of the leading pantomime production companies
0:04:41 > 0:04:44grossed £18.5 million in box-office sales.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47This year we shall be producing six pantomimes.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49Next year our aim is to produce eight,
0:04:49 > 0:04:53- and the following year, 11. - Your £100,000 investment
0:04:53 > 0:04:55will enable us to secure larger venues,
0:04:55 > 0:04:58and ultimately deliver the growth and profitability
0:04:58 > 0:05:02as outlined in our business plan, and before we welcome any questions,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05we'd like to thank the cast and children as they leave the Den.
0:05:09 > 0:05:13Theatricality of this kind rarely finds a place in the Den,
0:05:13 > 0:05:17but business partners Darren Maddison and Helen Wright from Lincolnshire
0:05:17 > 0:05:20have certainly made an impact with their pitch.
0:05:20 > 0:05:25But is it an opportunity worthy of a £100,000 investment?
0:05:25 > 0:05:28Duncan Bannatyne looks confused.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33Um, Darren, Helen...
0:05:33 > 0:05:35Hello.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37I don't really get it.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42OK. Well, we produce professional static pantomimes,
0:05:42 > 0:05:45and we started in 2005 with one pantomime.
0:05:45 > 0:05:48In 2009 we decided to tender for more theatres.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50That resulted in us doing three pantomimes last year,
0:05:50 > 0:05:54and this year we've already secured six venues.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56What does it cost you to put on a pantomime?
0:05:56 > 0:05:58Between £30,000 and £40,000 to put on.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00And what return do you get for that?
0:06:00 > 0:06:05Um, we... Er... Our turnover was £125,000 last year,
0:06:05 > 0:06:07with a profit of £29,000.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10And what would you do with £100,000, then?
0:06:11 > 0:06:14- With your £100,000? - My £100,000. Well done.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18We'd spend £45,000 of it on the scenery and props,
0:06:18 > 0:06:21£20,000 on costumes,
0:06:21 > 0:06:25£10,000 on marketing, and £25,000 on special effects.
0:06:25 > 0:06:28The really good thing about that investment, though,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31is once you've secured all the equipment, you can use it year on year,
0:06:31 > 0:06:34so your investment would last between ten and 15 years.
0:06:36 > 0:06:41Businesslike responses from the theatrical entrepreneurs.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44Peter Jones is next to interrogate the duo.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50Darren, Helen, you value your business at the moment
0:06:50 > 0:06:52at £1 million.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57- What... - We've based it on projected turnover
0:06:57 > 0:07:01- over the next three years. - Oh, OK. So you want me to invest now
0:07:01 > 0:07:04based on a valuation in three years' time.
0:07:04 > 0:07:07- That's not very good, is it? - Well, we do, er...
0:07:07 > 0:07:09Shouldn't we invest today for today's value,
0:07:09 > 0:07:12then reap the reward of the value in three years' time?
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Absolutely, but we would be able to give you your £100,000 back,
0:07:15 > 0:07:17if you wanted it, in February.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20So you're saying you're going to guarantee
0:07:20 > 0:07:23my £100,000 back next February?
0:07:23 > 0:07:25If that's what you wanted.
0:07:25 > 0:07:29I mean, our net profit for year one would be £130,000.
0:07:29 > 0:07:32Would I still own the share in the business then?
0:07:32 > 0:07:35What we'd like to do is for you to stay with us,
0:07:35 > 0:07:38- because it would give you a much better...- Trust me,
0:07:38 > 0:07:42if I invested 100,000 today, and you gave me my money back in February,
0:07:42 > 0:07:44I'd be staying with you for a long time.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51Darren and Helen cleverly sidestep concerns about the valuation
0:07:51 > 0:07:54by offering some very preferential terms for an investor.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58Deborah Meaden knows this sector well.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05Um, so, what's the biggest theatre deal that you've done
0:08:05 > 0:08:07as a company so far?
0:08:07 > 0:08:10This year, in December, we shall be producing one in Clacton
0:08:10 > 0:08:14which is our biggest, which is an 850-seater theatre.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19Historically we've done anywhere between 210 seats and 350.
0:08:19 > 0:08:23- So the biggest one you've done yet is 350.- That's right.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26- Yes.- OK. And was it a sell-out?
0:08:26 > 0:08:30We go at about 75 percent in terms of sell-out.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34And, when you've got to fill an 850-seater,
0:08:34 > 0:08:36how are you going to do that?
0:08:36 > 0:08:39Well, we're looking for a celebrity to appear in it,
0:08:39 > 0:08:42and do a big marketing campaign from that.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44So, you're now looking at larger theatres,
0:08:44 > 0:08:48- so you become more of the traditional-style panto.- Absolutely.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51And what is the seasonality? How long is your season?
0:08:51 > 0:08:55It takes place in December, for about four weeks in each theatre.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57- So only December?- Yes. Yeah.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00We started working on these pantomimes in March.
0:09:00 > 0:09:03We get in touch with all the local schools
0:09:03 > 0:09:05within a 15-mile radius of the theatre.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07- We get those all booked on...- OK.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11- But all of your revenue comes in December?- Absolutely.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14- That's quite seasonal, isn't it? - Yes.
0:09:17 > 0:09:21Businesses that make their money in such a narrow time period
0:09:21 > 0:09:26provide an extra challenge for even the most experienced of entrepreneurs.
0:09:26 > 0:09:29Theo Paphitis looked concerned.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33- Guys... - THEO SIGHS
0:09:33 > 0:09:37I just want to say that you are looking at things
0:09:37 > 0:09:39with rose-coloured glasses on.
0:09:39 > 0:09:44And in business, while that's great, you've also got to be realistic.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46And coming here with a million-quid valuation
0:09:46 > 0:09:50for a business that doesn't make any money,
0:09:50 > 0:09:53basically it's just you two hoping to make something happen
0:09:53 > 0:09:54in the future.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57It's not very realistic.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01It's not an investable deal for me at these levels,
0:10:01 > 0:10:04so I'm going to say I'm sorry, but I'm out.
0:10:04 > 0:10:05Thank you, Theo.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09A first blow for the business partners,
0:10:09 > 0:10:13as Theo Paphitis walks away from the deal.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16And Duncan Bannatyne has made up his mind too.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23Helen, Darren, when somebody says...
0:10:23 > 0:10:28"We guarantee your investment back," as you have just done,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32that's pretty exciting. But you've got to be crazy,
0:10:32 > 0:10:34completely crazy,
0:10:34 > 0:10:37if you're going to give away 20 percent of your company now
0:10:37 > 0:10:43with the knowledge that if you wait, you'll have the £100,000 in profit,
0:10:43 > 0:10:45so you can keep 100 percent of your company.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47You don't need an investor.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50So I've got to say,
0:10:50 > 0:10:53- I'm out.- Thank you.
0:10:53 > 0:10:58Darren, Helen, looking down the list of your expenditure,
0:10:58 > 0:11:02you don't really need all those things immediately.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04You could actually wait for the special effects.
0:11:04 > 0:11:08You could actually wait for new costumes.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10So why give away 20 percent of your company?
0:11:10 > 0:11:14What we are looking to do is try and find bigger theatres,
0:11:14 > 0:11:16and we're looking for the expertise and guidance
0:11:16 > 0:11:19that you could offer to make more theatres take our pantos.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22If we had 15 theatres, that would be fantastic,
0:11:22 > 0:11:24and obviously the profit margins would soar.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27And I think your passion will probably get you there.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30But I've got to say...
0:11:30 > 0:11:31I'm out.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39Two more Dragons fail to find money-making potential
0:11:39 > 0:11:41in the duo's business plans.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44Will leisure-industry expert Deborah Meaden
0:11:44 > 0:11:47take a different view?
0:11:48 > 0:11:51I think you've got real issue with seasonality.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56It is very, very difficult, when you've got such a tight season.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00But other companies out there do touring pantomimes
0:12:00 > 0:12:03throughout the summer season, to places like Pontins and Butlins
0:12:03 > 0:12:05and Haven.
0:12:05 > 0:12:09I... I've got to say, even in the holiday parks,
0:12:09 > 0:12:13you're going to find they've often got their own entertainments teams.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16They're busy in the summer, and they want to keep themselves busy
0:12:16 > 0:12:19in the winter, and even in my businesses,
0:12:19 > 0:12:24we put on pantomimes in the winter, but that was through using the people we currently had,
0:12:24 > 0:12:27and we kept them on the books and we wanted to,
0:12:27 > 0:12:30so I think that it's unlikely that they'll take you for a summer run.
0:12:30 > 0:12:34So I'm afraid that, because of my experience in this,
0:12:34 > 0:12:38I can't honestly see that it's going to give me a return
0:12:38 > 0:12:42- on my investment. I'm out. - Thank you for your advice. Thank you.
0:12:42 > 0:12:47Darren, Helen, I thought that presentation, visually,
0:12:47 > 0:12:51was the best we've ever had. Even the kids were perfect.
0:12:51 > 0:12:53And clearly...
0:12:53 > 0:12:56this is a passion of yours as much as anything,
0:12:56 > 0:12:58and I've always said "follow your passion",
0:12:58 > 0:13:01because you don't mind working those extra hours.
0:13:01 > 0:13:04But as an outside investor, I don't necessarily want to spend
0:13:04 > 0:13:07all those hours the way you do, for little return.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11So I'm unfortunately not going to invest today, and I'm out.
0:13:11 > 0:13:13Thank you, Peter.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19Darren and Helen walk away with a ringing endorsement of their pitch,
0:13:19 > 0:13:21but not of their business proposition.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23They leave with nothing.
0:13:28 > 0:13:33The Dragons always like to see an entrepreneur walking up the stairs
0:13:33 > 0:13:35with some tasty fare in their hands.
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Bristol-based chef Paul Da Costa Greaves
0:13:38 > 0:13:41certainly whetted their appetite
0:13:41 > 0:13:44with his range of flavoured chocolate bars.
0:13:44 > 0:13:46He needed £50,000.
0:13:46 > 0:13:50I make chocolate using essential oils and herbs,
0:13:50 > 0:13:54which can either be beautiful, maybe sexy, or sensual.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57Or if you're feeling gorgeous, maybe seductive...
0:13:57 > 0:14:02I suppose I'm sort of massaging you from the inside.
0:14:02 > 0:14:07The multi-millionaires were particular about picking their favourite flavour.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10I don't fancy being a mistress.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14But Paul's financial history wasn't quite so appetising.
0:14:14 > 0:14:18I've made a loss of just under 30,000,
0:14:18 > 0:14:21but year five, which was 2011,
0:14:21 > 0:14:23I made the loss of just over 100,000.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28I don't get it. Why would you want to invest in a business
0:14:28 > 0:14:31- that doesn't make money? - But you have to invest money
0:14:31 > 0:14:33to get to where you are.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35I have never, ever invested in a business
0:14:35 > 0:14:38and waited five years for it to start making money.
0:14:40 > 0:14:44Paul... So, how many products have you got?
0:14:44 > 0:14:48- I've got 15 bars. - 15 bars!- Yeah, 15 bars in the range.
0:14:48 > 0:14:50I do little packs of 12...
0:14:50 > 0:14:53- 12s.- ..and I do a little pack of 48.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Wow! We're building up quite a range, aren't we?
0:14:56 > 0:14:58- Busy boy.- You are a busy boy.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02There is very successful chocolate companies out there
0:15:02 > 0:15:05that don't have that many. Ranges have to be tight,
0:15:05 > 0:15:09because you can't control your costs.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13You've not been focussing on the things that matter in business,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17- and that's making a profit. I'm out. - OK. Thank you very much.
0:15:17 > 0:15:21As usual, the Dragons were forthright with their views.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25But why did Paul think he walked away empty-handed?
0:15:25 > 0:15:27They didn't get me.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30I'm not the most academic bloke
0:15:30 > 0:15:32and I'm not the most switched-on geezer,
0:15:32 > 0:15:36so when you start chucking everything at me, my head goes off in a mash. It's a shame.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39You win some, you lose five.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45When the Dragons invest, they look at the product,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48the person and the pitch.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51First-time inventor and mother of two, Kate Castle from Winchester,
0:15:51 > 0:15:55is hoping to impress with all three.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16Hi. My name's Kate Castle. I'm here to ask for £50,000
0:16:16 > 0:16:19for a 15 percent share in my business.
0:16:20 > 0:16:23Back in 2008, whilst camping in Dorset,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26lying awake and desperate for the toilet,
0:16:26 > 0:16:29I decided there had to be a better option
0:16:29 > 0:16:31than trekking across a dark, cold campsite.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35It took two years of patent applications,
0:16:35 > 0:16:38product design and sourcing to get to what we see today.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41BoginaBag is a lightweight portable toilet.
0:16:41 > 0:16:45It can also be used as a stool.
0:16:45 > 0:16:49But when you want to use it as a toilet, you remove the cover,
0:16:49 > 0:16:53take one of the specially designed degradable bags.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55This then goes into the central section,
0:16:55 > 0:16:57and completely seals the seat.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Within each bag is a highly absorbent pad
0:17:00 > 0:17:04that absorbs any liquid. Once you've finished,
0:17:04 > 0:17:08you remove the bag...and dispose.
0:17:09 > 0:17:13I started selling BoginaBag predominantly through my own website.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17I then attended the Outdoor Trade Show in October,
0:17:17 > 0:17:20and here I took a further 20 retail orders.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23Since then retail orders have continued to grow,
0:17:23 > 0:17:27and in March this year I took my first international retail order
0:17:27 > 0:17:29from a supplier in France.
0:17:29 > 0:17:33Thank you for your time, and now I'd be happy to take any questions
0:17:33 > 0:17:35on me, my business or my product.
0:17:38 > 0:17:42A thorough pitch from the Winchester-based mother of two,
0:17:42 > 0:17:45Kate Castle. In exchange for 15-percent equity,
0:17:45 > 0:17:49she wants a £50,000 cash injection
0:17:49 > 0:17:52to start mass-producing her low-tech portable toilet.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56Peter Jones looks bewildered.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01- Kate...- Yes?
0:18:01 > 0:18:04Where do I start?
0:18:04 > 0:18:07I just want to make sure that I've still got my sanity,
0:18:07 > 0:18:11because I've just seen a person present a chair with a hole in it
0:18:11 > 0:18:14and a bin liner, and wants £50,000 for it.
0:18:16 > 0:18:19Isn't that, in essence, all you've got here?
0:18:19 > 0:18:22- No.- What have you got that's different?
0:18:22 > 0:18:25A portable toilet that weighs less than one kilo,
0:18:25 > 0:18:28and there's nothing else like it on the market.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31But why couldn't I do that with my portable chair?
0:18:31 > 0:18:34If you put a standard stool there, you'll see
0:18:34 > 0:18:39that this is a lot sturdier. I mean, these can take up to 125 kilos.
0:18:39 > 0:18:42I'm just trying in my head to work out...
0:18:44 > 0:18:46..how can you really make some serious money in this?
0:18:46 > 0:18:49- Yeah.- I can't see hundreds of thousands of people
0:18:49 > 0:18:51buying this product.
0:18:51 > 0:18:55I think that I could sell hundreds of thousands
0:18:55 > 0:18:58on an international basis, especially with the growing trends
0:18:58 > 0:19:02in, kind of, camping. I do think there's a huge market.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10A very confident opening exchange from the fledgling entrepreneur.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13Now leisure-industry expert Deborah Meaden
0:19:13 > 0:19:16wants to drill down into the business itself.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22So, are you planning to carry on retailing,
0:19:22 > 0:19:26or would you say most of your business is going to come through wholesale?
0:19:26 > 0:19:29Long-term, I want to wholesale. I want to go...
0:19:29 > 0:19:32I want to be in big retailers.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35And talk me through the margins if you're selling to retailers.
0:19:35 > 0:19:38I sell for 19.95. I'd sell to a retailer
0:19:38 > 0:19:42for £9, and I purchase for £2.60.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44And are retailers buying at £9?
0:19:44 > 0:19:47The retailers that I'm selling to at the moment
0:19:47 > 0:19:52do tend to be independents, mail-order and online,
0:19:52 > 0:19:55and at the moment, yeah, they're happy to purchase at £9.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Your price points, your ratios, are way out.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01If you're going to sell masses of them, and go to the retailers,
0:20:01 > 0:20:05they need to make a much better margin than you're offering them.
0:20:05 > 0:20:10- So either you're going to reduce your margin or your costs.- Yeah.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13- Which one's it going to be? - Both.- Both.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16Give me your thoughts. Where are you going to get to?
0:20:16 > 0:20:20OK. I need to be selling to them for £6,
0:20:20 > 0:20:23an absolute maximum. I think in terms of costing,
0:20:23 > 0:20:26it's possible, if I'm ordering by container-load,
0:20:26 > 0:20:28to get that cost down to about £2.20.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31What's your background?
0:20:31 > 0:20:34After my second year at university,
0:20:34 > 0:20:38I did a placement with one of the major supermarkets
0:20:38 > 0:20:41in a training scheme, and they sponsored me for my final year
0:20:41 > 0:20:44at university. And then after I'd been with this supermarket
0:20:44 > 0:20:48for eight years, I moved to a DIY chain
0:20:48 > 0:20:52and worked in their head office as an imports analyst.
0:20:52 > 0:20:57Since then I've put everything into making this a reality.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03Well informed and well organised responses.
0:21:03 > 0:21:05Kate is going down well with the Dragons.
0:21:05 > 0:21:07But what future for her product?
0:21:07 > 0:21:09Hilary Devey wants to know.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15Kate, so, we've talked about camping.
0:21:15 > 0:21:18What other market could you foresee it going into?
0:21:18 > 0:21:22I'm selling quite a few to fishermen,
0:21:22 > 0:21:24- people with small boats.- Yeah.
0:21:24 > 0:21:27There's another avenue that I've had interest,
0:21:27 > 0:21:30which is the military. I've sold quite a few at Christmas
0:21:30 > 0:21:34to people that were staying in people's houses,
0:21:34 > 0:21:37and they were slightly elderly and they were staying up high
0:21:37 > 0:21:40in the house, so it was a long way down to the toilet,
0:21:40 > 0:21:42so they were having one in the bedroom.
0:21:42 > 0:21:47Kate, you've gone from a camping site to all the military,
0:21:47 > 0:21:51to old people using it as the new commode.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54- Um...- You're over-estimating it.
0:21:54 > 0:21:57I think that my sales and the interest that I've had in it
0:21:57 > 0:22:02- show that I'm not over-estimating it. - What sales have you had to date?
0:22:02 > 0:22:07I've sold 1,600 BoginaBag stools and over 4,000 packs of bags.
0:22:07 > 0:22:12I don't think that represents a fantastic, "let's fly it off the shelf" business.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15Yeah.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17- I'm out.- Thank you for your time.
0:22:19 > 0:22:22It's a damning conclusion from Duncan Bannatyne.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25But there are still four Dragons left.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28Will Peter Jones agree with his rival's appraisal?
0:22:31 > 0:22:33You're very investable.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36And I think... Every time I listen to you, I'm thinking,
0:22:36 > 0:22:42I so wish you hadn't just come in with a chair with a hole in it.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48I can't see this being huge mass-market enough
0:22:48 > 0:22:51to return the level of investment.
0:22:52 > 0:22:55I'm going to say I'm out.
0:22:55 > 0:22:57OK. Thank you.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00- Kate...- Yes?
0:23:00 > 0:23:03I suspect that you can make money out of it,
0:23:03 > 0:23:06but I do worry about the scale of it.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16And then I think,
0:23:16 > 0:23:21the festival market - absolutely. The caravan and camping market,
0:23:21 > 0:23:27that in itself can really turn over some pretty chunky numbers.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29And you're good.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Thank you.
0:23:31 > 0:23:37And those things combined lead me to surprising myself.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Because I'm going to make you an offer.
0:23:41 > 0:23:4450,000...
0:23:47 > 0:23:51I want 30 percent of the business.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59The decline in Kate's fortunes is dramatically halted
0:23:59 > 0:24:03as Deborah Meaden makes an offer. But it's for double the equity
0:24:03 > 0:24:06the entrepreneur initially wanted to give away.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08With two Dragons still left in,
0:24:08 > 0:24:11will she now be able to negotiate herself a better deal?
0:24:23 > 0:24:28I do see it as a good product, and I do see it as a much larger market.
0:24:28 > 0:24:30I've got much larger vision.
0:24:30 > 0:24:32Um...
0:24:33 > 0:24:36I will offer you the full amount...
0:24:38 > 0:24:41..for 25 percent of your business.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Thank you.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52- Kate, I love the name. BoginaBag. - Yeah.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56I've already invested in a product that sells brilliantly
0:24:56 > 0:24:59in the festival market, WedgeWelly. So I do believe
0:24:59 > 0:25:02that that really is your primary market.
0:25:02 > 0:25:05But if I was going to invest,
0:25:05 > 0:25:09you know, I'd want a material part of the business.
0:25:11 > 0:25:14Do I match Deborah's 30 percent...
0:25:17 > 0:25:21..or do I just say you've got two Dragons already?
0:25:32 > 0:25:34What would you like me to do?
0:25:34 > 0:25:37Um, if I'm honest,
0:25:37 > 0:25:40I'd really, really like you to make an offer,
0:25:40 > 0:25:43because I think you've got the retail experience,
0:25:43 > 0:25:46contacts and expertise that I need.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53- Oh!- That's high-rolling... - That's a very, very high-risk...
0:25:59 > 0:26:03But who wouldn't want to consider three offers rather than two?
0:26:03 > 0:26:07I think you just told me something.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12That you've got a clear, preferred Dragon.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17I'm withdrawing my offer.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21I'm out.
0:26:24 > 0:26:26All of a sudden, a more hesitant Kate
0:26:26 > 0:26:28finds her options narrowed considerably,
0:26:28 > 0:26:32and Theo Paphitis has yet to table an offer at all.
0:26:37 > 0:26:39Kate...
0:26:42 > 0:26:46..I'm struggling, really struggling, with that 30 percent,
0:26:46 > 0:26:48because...
0:26:51 > 0:26:53..you're so early.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08I will match Deborah's 30 percent.
0:27:10 > 0:27:12OK.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21Thank you for your offers, all three of you.
0:27:21 > 0:27:23Um...
0:27:23 > 0:27:28Deborah's right - Theo is my preferred Dragon.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30Kate, congratulations.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32DRAGONS APPLAUD Thank you.
0:27:32 > 0:27:37It was a nerve-wracking negotiation, but Kate's gamble pays off.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39She may have sacrificed equity,
0:27:39 > 0:27:43but she gets both the money and the Dragon she wanted all along.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48Kate, very well done, and you got Theo, the very one you wanted.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51Yeah. Fantastic result. Obviously really pleased.
0:27:51 > 0:27:55Well, I admired your chutzpah in saying "I want Theo".
0:27:55 > 0:27:57Deborah did say it was a risky strategy,
0:27:57 > 0:27:59and when she said that, I thought, "Oh!"
0:27:59 > 0:28:02To be honest, it wasn't really a strategy.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05She obviously picked up from what I was saying
0:28:05 > 0:28:08that my heart really wanted to work with Theo.
0:28:08 > 0:28:10- Very well done indeed.- Thank you.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21All entrepreneurs who enter the den believe they'll be the ones
0:28:21 > 0:28:23who'll walk away with the Dragons' cash.
0:28:23 > 0:28:26But most end up with a dose of business reality.
0:28:26 > 0:28:29Sadly, this was true of South Londoner George Allen,
0:28:29 > 0:28:34who wanted £50,000 to bring his colourful board game to the masses.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39Flaggo! is an exciting international board game
0:28:39 > 0:28:41where players fly from country to country
0:28:41 > 0:28:45to enable them to collect letters to spell the word "Flaggo" and win.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48I sent a letter to the Queen and Prince Philip,
0:28:48 > 0:28:52who have written back and said the game looks very good.
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Could I have a look at the letters from the Queen and Prince Philip?
0:28:55 > 0:28:59Upon closer inspection, Duncan Bannatyne cast doubt
0:28:59 > 0:29:01on George's letters.
0:29:01 > 0:29:06You might think you've had letters from the Queen and Prince Charles, but you haven't.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09These people are thanking you for being generous and sending the game.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11There's a huge difference.
0:29:11 > 0:29:13I realise they can't really endorse a game,
0:29:13 > 0:29:17- given their position.- Why send the game, if they can't endorse it?
0:29:17 > 0:29:20Because I thought it would just be a very nice thing to do.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23Less concerned with the royal seal of approval,
0:29:23 > 0:29:27Deborah Meaden sought a more conventional proof of interest.
0:29:27 > 0:29:32Do you have any toy shops who've shown interest in this?
0:29:32 > 0:29:35I haven't had any toy shops that have approached me personally,
0:29:35 > 0:29:39but I've written to them, and actually sent them a game
0:29:39 > 0:29:42- so they can digest the contents. - You sent them a game as well?
0:29:42 > 0:29:46Yes. They've all been sent a game, because without the contents -
0:29:46 > 0:29:50- Which makes it even worse.- Worse!
0:29:50 > 0:29:53The fact they've got your game on their desk,
0:29:53 > 0:29:56and they're still not calling you back...
0:29:57 > 0:29:59..is a clue, George.
0:30:01 > 0:30:03And with the counsel of Theo Paphitis yet to hit home,
0:30:03 > 0:30:07Peter Jones dealt a final blow to George's business plan.
0:30:07 > 0:30:09I've actually created a board game myself.
0:30:09 > 0:30:13- And do you know how much money I made in total?- I'm not sure.
0:30:13 > 0:30:17Nothing. You'll never make a penny from this market.
0:30:17 > 0:30:20- Right. Fair enough.- And I'm out.- OK.
0:30:24 > 0:30:27So far tonight, only one business has been deemed worthy
0:30:27 > 0:30:29of the Dragons' cash.
0:30:29 > 0:30:32- Theo is my preferred Dragon. - Kate, congratulations.
0:30:32 > 0:30:36If you want to find out why Theo chose to invest in Kate Castle,
0:30:36 > 0:30:38press the red button at the end of the programme.
0:30:42 > 0:30:45Can you make a good business out of art?
0:30:45 > 0:30:47Our next entrepreneur thinks so.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50But if Durban-born artist and metalworker Stephen Myburgh
0:30:50 > 0:30:54is to get an investment, he'll have to persuade the Dragons.
0:31:23 > 0:31:25My name's Steve Myburgh.
0:31:25 > 0:31:29I'm here today to attract a £70,000 investment
0:31:29 > 0:31:32for a 20 percent equity share in my company.
0:31:32 > 0:31:36Myburgh Designs is essentially a design and manufacture company,
0:31:36 > 0:31:39and we specialise in a range of swinging chairs.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43I'm just going to take you back for a second to South Africa,
0:31:43 > 0:31:46apartheid South Africa, when I was much younger.
0:31:46 > 0:31:50And the alarm in my father's factory goes off.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53And as we enter the building, the scene that I witness
0:31:53 > 0:31:56is an SAP dog attacking a young boy
0:31:56 > 0:32:00that they found in a cardboard box, OK?
0:32:00 > 0:32:03And the boy's splayed out on the floor,
0:32:03 > 0:32:06and the product inside that box was spread out in front of me.
0:32:06 > 0:32:08And the thing that really struck me
0:32:08 > 0:32:13was the lack of value between all the participating ingredients
0:32:13 > 0:32:15to that scene. There was no real value in the product.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19There was no real value in the relationships between the people,
0:32:19 > 0:32:23because the boy didn't value the cop and the cop definitely didn't value the boy.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26And so that day a seed was planted in me,
0:32:26 > 0:32:28and that seed has grown into a passion,
0:32:28 > 0:32:31and that passion is about finding as sweet place
0:32:31 > 0:32:36between people, environment and product.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40What we do is, we invent beauty,
0:32:40 > 0:32:43and the gift that we give to our clients is this creative living.
0:32:43 > 0:32:47So today I am here to find that money, to get that cash
0:32:47 > 0:32:51that is going to drive my business forward into the next few years.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54Really I'm also here to find a dragon-heart,
0:32:54 > 0:32:58a dragon-heart to stand next to me and cover my world
0:32:58 > 0:33:01with this kind of treasure that I make.
0:33:01 > 0:33:04So, if you'd like to try them out, you can,
0:33:04 > 0:33:08and I'll answer all your questions afterwards.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10I'll try.
0:33:12 > 0:33:16A creative approach to pitching from Hampshire-based artist
0:33:16 > 0:33:18Steve Myburgh.
0:33:18 > 0:33:21- Ooh, it's quite nice. - You look very regal.
0:33:21 > 0:33:24- It's very good. Like it! - Can I get into that one?- Yeah!
0:33:24 > 0:33:27He may have taken the Dragons back on a journey to his childhood,
0:33:27 > 0:33:31but will that be enough to receive a £70,000 investment
0:33:31 > 0:33:33in return for 20 percent
0:33:33 > 0:33:36of his bespoke-garden-furniture design business?
0:33:36 > 0:33:40Hilary Devey needs to go back to basics.
0:33:44 > 0:33:47- Where are these manufactured? - In my factory.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51- Where?- In Hampshire.- Hampshire. So you actually make these here?
0:33:51 > 0:33:53We've just reached a production capability
0:33:53 > 0:33:57- of 150 units a year. - So what's your route to market?
0:33:57 > 0:34:01This year I've put all of my efforts into forging relationships
0:34:01 > 0:34:03and forging joint ventures,
0:34:03 > 0:34:06and I've started to create some really interesting ones.
0:34:06 > 0:34:11I've got five hotels on my books, OK? I give the hotel the installation,
0:34:11 > 0:34:13and I get to feed off the marketing from that,
0:34:13 > 0:34:17so I've had them in the hotels for a month, and I've sold two pieces.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19And how much do they sell for?
0:34:19 > 0:34:21£5,000,
0:34:21 > 0:34:23£3,200,
0:34:23 > 0:34:25£18,000,
0:34:25 > 0:34:27and £5,000.
0:34:27 > 0:34:32To be honest with you, I am only now interested in becoming a businessperson.
0:34:32 > 0:34:36It's actually coming to me now. I can feel it.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38- SHE LAUGHS - Tell me how.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41- How do you feel that? - I'm interested in it.
0:34:41 > 0:34:46How do you feel? Epitomise your vision of where you want to go.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49I want Myburgh to touch everybody in the UK.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52My vision of Myburgh Designs is to push it across the world,
0:34:52 > 0:34:57to really sell this, to make this the next iconic piece of furniture.
0:34:57 > 0:35:01Steve's story may have charmed Hilary Devey,
0:35:01 > 0:35:04but in this den, it's all about business.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07Theo Paphitis wants more clarity on the numbers.
0:35:10 > 0:35:14- Steve, just... You sell that for 5,000 quid.- Yeah.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16Give me the cost in producing that.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20£853.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22853 quid?
0:35:22 > 0:35:26So you're making 150 now, or your capacity's 150?
0:35:26 > 0:35:28- My capacity's 150. - How many are you making?
0:35:28 > 0:35:31At the moment I'm only selling 30 a year.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34- At an average price of... - Of about five grand.
0:35:34 > 0:35:40I've sold swings to Singapore, the princes of Liechtenstein...
0:35:40 > 0:35:42The Mercedes-Benz family bought one from me.
0:35:42 > 0:35:46I've got a bit of a career here. I just haven't figured out
0:35:46 > 0:35:49how to sell 150 units a year. That's all.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52I've got a little bit of magic. Can I show you?
0:35:52 > 0:35:54Yeah, show us some magic.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59GENTLE CHIMING MUSIC PLAYS Isn't it lovely?
0:36:01 > 0:36:05I try to do this. I try to create magic for people, you know?
0:36:06 > 0:36:10Give me a chance and I'll make magic products that the world will buy.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13You say it's magic, but I had one of those on my ice-cream van.
0:36:13 > 0:36:17THEY LAUGH Duncan... Duncan...
0:36:17 > 0:36:19wasn't that the magic in your ice-cream van?
0:36:19 > 0:36:24Steve... Steve, if I said to you, just concentrate on the business
0:36:24 > 0:36:26going forward,
0:36:26 > 0:36:28and tell me how you're going to make money out of this,
0:36:28 > 0:36:31what's your answer?
0:36:31 > 0:36:34I'm going to sell a lot of swings.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37It's a good answer. It's not a great answer.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41My problem is that, as yet, I don't believe you.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44So you need to convince me.
0:36:44 > 0:36:46- Can I ask you a question?- Yeah.
0:36:46 > 0:36:47Would you like to buy one of my swings?
0:36:47 > 0:36:50- Not at those prices...- Are you sure?
0:36:50 > 0:36:54..and I have hotels where they would sit very nice.
0:36:54 > 0:36:58So convince me how we're going to make any money as a business.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00I'm looking for some business advice. I don't know.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03My prices are created out of my experience,
0:37:03 > 0:37:06- not out of my business knowledge. - So what you're saying is,
0:37:06 > 0:37:08you've no idea how it's going to make any money.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12You want me to invest £70,000 and then show you how to make money?
0:37:13 > 0:37:15Yeah.
0:37:15 > 0:37:17I mean, I'm here knocking on your door
0:37:17 > 0:37:20because you guys know how to make money.
0:37:23 > 0:37:26A frank admission, perhaps, but such business naivety
0:37:26 > 0:37:29rarely ends up with a Dragon investment.
0:37:29 > 0:37:33Will Deborah Meaden find a reason to part with £70,000?
0:37:35 > 0:37:38When you talk, you talk as an artisan.
0:37:38 > 0:37:41This is not a criticism. You talk about the imagery.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45You spent most of your pitch telling us a historic story
0:37:45 > 0:37:48about where all of this came from.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51You spent no time at all,
0:37:51 > 0:37:54no time at all, telling us where the business was.
0:37:54 > 0:37:58It's a brand. It's a global brand that will supply -
0:37:58 > 0:38:01But it isn't, is it, because what you've got in front of us
0:38:01 > 0:38:06is something that costs £18,000 - trust me, that is not going to have a huge market -
0:38:06 > 0:38:09something that's £5,000 - that won't have a huge market -
0:38:09 > 0:38:13and you say you have a product. Well, I don't see product.
0:38:13 > 0:38:17- I see lovely pieces...- Thank you. - ..but these are bespoke pieces,
0:38:17 > 0:38:20and you're making a mistake if you think what we've got in front of us
0:38:20 > 0:38:24is a product you're going to be able to roll out, because it's not.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27The thing is that I'm ready grow into the business,
0:38:27 > 0:38:31and to take it on, not as an artisan, not as an artist,
0:38:31 > 0:38:35but to take it on as a business. Let me spread my wings a little bit,
0:38:35 > 0:38:37- and then you'll see - - Steve, you're not.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40- I'm not what? - Ready to take this as a business.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42Oh.
0:38:42 > 0:38:45Whilst you in your head think you might be ready
0:38:45 > 0:38:48to turn this into a business, you've taken no step at all.
0:38:48 > 0:38:52- And this, here, we're investors. - Yeah, yeah. I see that.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55- We want business propositions. - I see that.- I'm out.
0:38:55 > 0:38:57Thanks.
0:38:58 > 0:39:00Steve's lack of business nous
0:39:00 > 0:39:03finally results in him losing a Dragon.
0:39:03 > 0:39:07And Peter Jones looks ready to show his hand too.
0:39:08 > 0:39:11Steve, a lot of artists with your talent,
0:39:11 > 0:39:14they do it because they have that passion,
0:39:14 > 0:39:17that strength and depth. They see things that people like me don't.
0:39:17 > 0:39:21I'm happy looking at a piece of paper with numbers on it. I'm boring.
0:39:21 > 0:39:24So I haven't got the talent that you've got,
0:39:24 > 0:39:27and I kind of think that talent should stay within you.
0:39:27 > 0:39:30I congratulate you on producing what you've produced,
0:39:30 > 0:39:34- but it's not something I can invest in, so I'm out.- Thank you, Peter.
0:39:35 > 0:39:39Look, they are great pieces. They're really interesting.
0:39:39 > 0:39:43- Thank you.- But let me just tell you, you will drive people to despair
0:39:43 > 0:39:47who go in business with you. You will drive them mad.
0:39:47 > 0:39:51For all your talent and your strengths,
0:39:51 > 0:39:54if you're really thinking about going into business,
0:39:54 > 0:39:57they are also your Achilles heel.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00- I'm out.- Thank you very much.
0:40:02 > 0:40:06- Like everyone else, I think it's a fantastic product.- Thank you.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10But I don't think yet it is a business investment.
0:40:10 > 0:40:13So giving you advice and giving you money,
0:40:13 > 0:40:18and for 20 percent, doesn't stack up.
0:40:18 > 0:40:20- I'm out. - Thank you very much, Duncan.
0:40:22 > 0:40:24Three Dragons walk away in quick succession,
0:40:24 > 0:40:30and now Steve's hopes of investment rest solely with Hilary Devey.
0:40:31 > 0:40:34Hilary, would you like one of my flowers?
0:40:34 > 0:40:37OK. Thank you. Thank you. That's very kind of you.
0:40:37 > 0:40:39There you go.
0:40:39 > 0:40:43- She can't be bought for a copper flower!- No. Indeed I can't.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46- I think they're fabulous. - Thank you very much.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49But I can go to parts of the world and buy that
0:40:49 > 0:40:52for 200, 300 euros.
0:40:52 > 0:40:57Almost every garden in Morocco will have a chair of some distinction
0:40:57 > 0:41:00- like this in it. - To make -- If you're saying £800
0:41:00 > 0:41:05it's costing you to make 'em here, you wouldn't pay a tenth of that
0:41:05 > 0:41:08- in Morocco.- But it's about making things in the UK.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10We don't outsource everything, you know.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14- It's about having some authenticity - - But it's also about making money
0:41:14 > 0:41:17- and about profitability. - You're absolutely right.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20- Steve, bottom line!- You're right.
0:41:20 > 0:41:24For me, it's not an investable product,
0:41:24 > 0:41:27and I wish you all the very best of British, but I'm sorry - I'm out.
0:41:27 > 0:41:29Pleasure.
0:41:30 > 0:41:33It was an unusual pitch,
0:41:33 > 0:41:36but as usual the Dragons gave short shrift to a business
0:41:36 > 0:41:39without a clear path for making money.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49Other entrepreneurs who tried and failed in the Den
0:41:49 > 0:41:54included Worcestershire-based Phil Hall, who brought along his solution to a common automotive problem.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57He just needed £75,000 to bring it to market.
0:42:00 > 0:42:04The wingAware is a very simple, flexible plastic wing-mirror protector.
0:42:04 > 0:42:07Slots into the car door,
0:42:07 > 0:42:10so it will give you that couple of extra inches of protection
0:42:10 > 0:42:13to your car.
0:42:13 > 0:42:16The Dragons are not short of cars in their collective garages,
0:42:16 > 0:42:20so felt well qualified to voice their opinions about Phil's product.
0:42:20 > 0:42:22If a car was to come along and hit that,
0:42:22 > 0:42:25they're too close to the vehicle in the first place,
0:42:25 > 0:42:27and it means the wing mirror will go anyway.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31But that still doesn't get away from the fact that it looks ridiculous.
0:42:31 > 0:42:33Have you ever lost your wing mirror?
0:42:33 > 0:42:37I'd probably prefer it to be smashed than put this on it.
0:42:37 > 0:42:40Why don't you just put your mirror in?
0:42:40 > 0:42:42It is giving you that extra protection. Even folded in,
0:42:42 > 0:42:46a wing mirror does still jut out.
0:42:46 > 0:42:49But it was the Dragons' opinion about his financial choices
0:42:49 > 0:42:52that put a stop to Phil's hopes of investment.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56How much have you spent on a patent to protect this product?
0:42:56 > 0:42:59To get it to prototype, £30,000.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03You might as well have got £30,000 and flushed it down the toilet.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06Before you spend any more money, please get some proof
0:43:06 > 0:43:10that somebody is going to buy these. I won't be investing, and I'm out.
0:43:10 > 0:43:11Thank you.
0:43:13 > 0:43:16Jacky Williams and stepfather Gerry Parker from Shropshire
0:43:16 > 0:43:19brightened up the Den with their pitch for £50,000
0:43:19 > 0:43:23in an anti-theft device for gardeners.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27I was totally astonished to find that there was absolutely nothing at all
0:43:27 > 0:43:29on the market that was simple and effective
0:43:29 > 0:43:32to prevent hanging baskets being stolen.
0:43:32 > 0:43:36It wasn't a problem with which Peter Jones was familiar.
0:43:36 > 0:43:39- Imagine a burglar running down the road with two hanging baskets! - They do.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42Really? OK. Well, let's take your word for it.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45If you put a phone line into the Den, you would be -
0:43:45 > 0:43:48- OK, Jacky. Jacky, hello.- Sorry.- Hi.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54Jacky and Gerry did find an ally in Deborah Meaden.
0:43:54 > 0:43:58- This is neat. It's great. - Thank you.- Well done.
0:43:58 > 0:44:01The trouble is, you can do the same thing
0:44:01 > 0:44:04in a different way. You can do it with cable ties.
0:44:04 > 0:44:07They are cheap, and you've probably got them in your house.
0:44:07 > 0:44:10In the end, it was just not a big enough proposition
0:44:10 > 0:44:12for the multi-millionaires.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15What worries me is, you're focussing on the gardening market,
0:44:15 > 0:44:18which has got horrendous peaks and troughs.
0:44:18 > 0:44:22And I kind of see this more as like a cottage industry,
0:44:22 > 0:44:25and I think you will make a good pension fund out of it.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28- Uh-huh.- But to me, it's not an investable business.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31- I'm out.- OK. Thank you very much.
0:44:35 > 0:44:39Our next entrepreneurs are from West London.
0:44:39 > 0:44:43Former sales executive Henry Buckley and his business partner JJ Harding
0:44:43 > 0:44:46think they've come up with a new and efficient way of marketing
0:44:46 > 0:44:48that'll appeal to business customers.
0:44:48 > 0:44:50Will the Dragons be impressed?
0:45:11 > 0:45:15Hello, there. Lovely to see you all. My name's Henry Buckley,
0:45:15 > 0:45:18and I'm the managing director of JogPost Limited.
0:45:18 > 0:45:22We're here to offer you a ten-percent share of our amazing company
0:45:22 > 0:45:25- for a £50,000 investment. - My name's JJ Harding.
0:45:25 > 0:45:28I'm the director of operations and business development.
0:45:28 > 0:45:31JogPost is a revolutionary direct-marketing company
0:45:31 > 0:45:34that specialises in leaflet distribution.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37We currently employ hundreds of fit and healthy individuals
0:45:37 > 0:45:41to jog and post our client's marketing materials
0:45:41 > 0:45:44door-to-door over London and the surrounding areas.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46In the time we've been running, just over a year,
0:45:46 > 0:45:50we have seen remarkable month-by-month sales growth.
0:45:50 > 0:45:53In the first year we turned over £170,000.
0:45:53 > 0:45:58Out of that, 62,000 was gross profit. 32,000 was net profit.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01We get new clients every single day, for many different reasons,
0:46:01 > 0:46:04but most importantly it's because we consistently get
0:46:04 > 0:46:08as much as three times the results as other companies in the industry.
0:46:08 > 0:46:10We know we are at the brink of a revolution.
0:46:10 > 0:46:13JogPost is about to explode into the market place.
0:46:13 > 0:46:16We'd like to invite you guys to ask any questions,
0:46:16 > 0:46:19- and we thank you for listening. - Thank you.
0:46:21 > 0:46:25An upbeat and confident pitch from West London business partners
0:46:25 > 0:46:30Henry Buckley and JJ Harding. In return for a ten-percent stake,
0:46:30 > 0:46:34they need £50,000 to develop their new twist
0:46:34 > 0:46:36on leaflet distribution.
0:46:36 > 0:46:40But Theo Paphitis looks unimpressed.
0:46:42 > 0:46:45JJ, Henry, hello. I'm Theo.
0:46:45 > 0:46:50A very positive little speech. Lots of PR.
0:46:50 > 0:46:52Is there any substance behind this business,
0:46:52 > 0:46:56or is it just you two in trackies, talking?
0:46:56 > 0:47:00We deliver approximately 250,000 leaflets a week
0:47:00 > 0:47:02- across London.- Right.
0:47:02 > 0:47:05And for us, from when we started until now,
0:47:05 > 0:47:08it's been just a massive increase. It's been like a snowball effect.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11We have taken the company from just the two of us
0:47:11 > 0:47:15pitching the idea to getting clients,
0:47:15 > 0:47:20and now we have about 200 joggers who work all over London.
0:47:20 > 0:47:24OK. What makes you so unique,
0:47:24 > 0:47:26as opposed to anyone else?
0:47:26 > 0:47:29When Henry says that we've got over 200 joggers,
0:47:29 > 0:47:32they are employed by the company, they work for us,
0:47:32 > 0:47:36they all wear these uniforms, and we monitor them,
0:47:36 > 0:47:39- measure their speeds and accuracy. - How do you do that?
0:47:39 > 0:47:42We have full-time non-distributing supervisors
0:47:42 > 0:47:45on all of our routes, and it's their job to spend the entire day
0:47:45 > 0:47:49monitoring the guys, making sure they're doing a good job.
0:47:49 > 0:47:52So they can't just dump their leaflets in the bin, go to the pub,
0:47:52 > 0:47:55jog back in with a bit of sweat...
0:47:55 > 0:47:57That's one of the best things about our system.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01It's very easy for us to tell if people are cutting corners,
0:48:01 > 0:48:04and that's one reason why we're getting better results than others.
0:48:06 > 0:48:09Fluent and assured responses from the two young businessmen.
0:48:09 > 0:48:14But what of the future? Deborah Meaden wants to know.
0:48:15 > 0:48:18I think you've presented very well here today.
0:48:18 > 0:48:22But what I don't have a sense of yet is your plan.
0:48:22 > 0:48:26At the moment we've got five teams of people working every day,
0:48:26 > 0:48:29and we want to take it to a level
0:48:29 > 0:48:31where we have control of the whole of London,
0:48:31 > 0:48:35and then open branches in all the other major cities in the UK,
0:48:35 > 0:48:37and hopefully even take it international as well.
0:48:37 > 0:48:42OK. So, that's your vision. So, if you were going to get to the point
0:48:42 > 0:48:44where your business is increased, what is it
0:48:44 > 0:48:47that you're physically going to need to do that?
0:48:47 > 0:48:51One of our main weaknesses is that our internal systems
0:48:51 > 0:48:54hasn't kept up with our rate of growth,
0:48:54 > 0:48:56so we would definitely need to invest
0:48:56 > 0:48:59in bespoke softwares and business systems
0:48:59 > 0:49:02to help us streamline all our communications
0:49:02 > 0:49:04- between our departments. - Where we are now,
0:49:04 > 0:49:08we've underpinned the business. We're bursting at the seams.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11OK. How do you know that you're more efficient
0:49:11 > 0:49:14- than your competitors? - We've had testimonials
0:49:14 > 0:49:17from some of our clients, for example Pizza Hut.
0:49:17 > 0:49:19We did a distribution for their Carshalton branch.
0:49:19 > 0:49:24That week, we got that branch the very top of the UK league tables
0:49:24 > 0:49:27for the first time in history. They'd never even been in the top ten.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30They beat the second highest branch, the Edinburgh branch,
0:49:30 > 0:49:33by over £1,000 worth of takings.
0:49:35 > 0:49:39Impressive statistics delivered in an impressive manner.
0:49:39 > 0:49:42Henry and JJ are certainly making a strong case.
0:49:42 > 0:49:45But can they maintain their poise
0:49:45 > 0:49:47under the scrutiny of Duncan Bannatyne?
0:49:49 > 0:49:53- So, you turned over 170,000 last year.- Mm-hm.
0:49:53 > 0:49:57It's hard for me to see, without having three years' accounts,
0:49:57 > 0:50:00whether that grew year on year. So can you tell me
0:50:00 > 0:50:03- about the four quarters of the first year?- Sure.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06In the first six months we turned over £60,000.
0:50:06 > 0:50:09Yeah. In Q3, we turned over £35,000.
0:50:09 > 0:50:12In Q4, we turned over £72,000.
0:50:12 > 0:50:17Um... So, what's your projected profit this year, then?
0:50:17 > 0:50:19Using conservative estimates,
0:50:19 > 0:50:22we're using the figure of 20 percent growth per quarter
0:50:22 > 0:50:24over the next four quarters.
0:50:24 > 0:50:27That'll give us a total of £724,000.
0:50:27 > 0:50:32- That's turnover. - That will give us £136,000 profit,
0:50:32 > 0:50:35although we do expect it to be a lot closer to 200.
0:50:36 > 0:50:40Right. I want to go back a little bit to where you come from.
0:50:40 > 0:50:43I've worked quite a few jobs, mostly in sales.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46I was always the top salesman at every company I worked in.
0:50:46 > 0:50:49- What kind of companies? - The Carphone Warehouse -
0:50:49 > 0:50:52first month, I was the highest earner in the entire organisation.
0:50:52 > 0:50:56I want to make as much money as I can and see what I can do with it.
0:50:56 > 0:51:00I'm incredibly good at sales. That's where my experience comes from.
0:51:00 > 0:51:02I also worked there for just over a year.
0:51:02 > 0:51:07- Henry made as much money as I did in a year in four months.- Yeah.
0:51:07 > 0:51:09Are you as clever with other things?
0:51:09 > 0:51:12I think I'm excellent at everything I do.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15Guys, I've got to say,
0:51:15 > 0:51:18I think your business and what you've done
0:51:18 > 0:51:21is very inspirational. Your story is fantastic,
0:51:21 > 0:51:25particularly Henry. You get to the top of Carphone Warehouse,
0:51:25 > 0:51:28you said, which isn't an easy feat,
0:51:28 > 0:51:32and then you just leave after four months. Can you just tell me why?
0:51:32 > 0:51:36I've never wanted to work for anyone else. It's been a means to an end -
0:51:36 > 0:51:39save up enough money to start my own business.
0:51:39 > 0:51:41Well, I am very, very impressed.
0:51:41 > 0:51:44I think you're two great, inspiring young people,
0:51:44 > 0:51:46and I also love your plan to go national
0:51:46 > 0:51:48and potentially go into Europe.
0:51:49 > 0:51:53So I'm very excited about the business.
0:51:53 > 0:51:56I'm going to make you an offer.
0:51:58 > 0:52:01The full amount of money...
0:52:02 > 0:52:04but for 33 and a third percent.
0:52:05 > 0:52:10So that would make me an equal partner with both of you.
0:52:15 > 0:52:18Peter Jones is first to break cover,
0:52:18 > 0:52:21but he's demanding more than three times the equity
0:52:21 > 0:52:24the duo originally wanted to give away.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27Will Hilary Devey now choose to enter the fray?
0:52:31 > 0:52:33- You've cornered London.- Mm-hm.
0:52:33 > 0:52:36- Have you studied the demographics of the UK?- Mm-hm.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39So, how many postcodes are there in England?
0:52:42 > 0:52:47Well, I actually own, and started from scratch,
0:52:47 > 0:52:50the Sameday courier network, that's running about 650 vehicles
0:52:50 > 0:52:54across the UK. So I do know the demographics,
0:52:54 > 0:52:57and I actually think you've got a fantastic concept here.
0:52:57 > 0:52:59I think it will go far.
0:52:59 > 0:53:03But I don't think, without the input
0:53:03 > 0:53:06of external people, you're going to have the knowledge
0:53:06 > 0:53:08to be able to extend it.
0:53:08 > 0:53:10So I would like to make you an offer.
0:53:12 > 0:53:16I would also like 33 and a third percent of your business.
0:53:18 > 0:53:20Mm-hm.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23But I will give you £70,000.
0:53:29 > 0:53:33In a tactical move, an astute Hilary Devey
0:53:33 > 0:53:37offers more money in a bid to secure the deal.
0:53:37 > 0:53:40Now will Theo Paphitis make it three in a row?
0:53:44 > 0:53:47You're both incredibly good.
0:53:47 > 0:53:50You got a business plan. You got a focus,
0:53:50 > 0:53:54- and maybe you're after a mentor to help you on your way.- Mm-hm.
0:53:54 > 0:54:00For ten percent, have I got the time to spend with you guys,
0:54:00 > 0:54:02mentoring you?
0:54:03 > 0:54:06Um, actually...
0:54:07 > 0:54:08..no.
0:54:08 > 0:54:10OK.
0:54:10 > 0:54:13- I'm out.- Thank you very much. - Thank you very much.
0:54:14 > 0:54:18OK. Just be honest - the reason you're here
0:54:18 > 0:54:21is because you want me to invest. Nobody else.
0:54:21 > 0:54:23Just be honest. Tell them.
0:54:23 > 0:54:26So I'm going to make you an offer.
0:54:26 > 0:54:27OK?
0:54:27 > 0:54:32All the money, £50,000, for 25 percent of the business.
0:54:38 > 0:54:40A third offer for Henry and JJ,
0:54:40 > 0:54:45but still for much more of their business than initially intended.
0:54:45 > 0:54:49With just one Dragon left, will the duo be able to get closer
0:54:49 > 0:54:51to the ten percent they were looking for?
0:54:54 > 0:54:56OK, guys.
0:54:56 > 0:55:00I think you are very impressive.
0:55:02 > 0:55:05I suspect that you're recognising that to actually replicate this,
0:55:05 > 0:55:09you're going to have to have something a little bit more solid
0:55:09 > 0:55:12in terms of the way you're managing the business,
0:55:12 > 0:55:16and that's the moment that I enjoy getting involved with businesses.
0:55:16 > 0:55:18And to me, it's very, very exciting.
0:55:18 > 0:55:21And I'm going to make you an offer that demonstrates
0:55:21 > 0:55:24that I'm excited by that,
0:55:24 > 0:55:28because it's going to be better than any offer you've heard as yet.
0:55:31 > 0:55:35It's for the full amount of the money, and I want 20 percent.
0:55:35 > 0:55:37- Thank you very much.- Thank you.
0:55:49 > 0:55:55Um... I've taken many, many distribution models into Europe
0:55:55 > 0:55:59and into Asia. Have you any idea how difficult that is?
0:55:59 > 0:56:01- No.- No.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04- It's a long, hard road.- Mm-hm.
0:56:04 > 0:56:07Think about it.
0:56:11 > 0:56:15Um... Can we take a minute to have a little discussion?
0:56:15 > 0:56:18- I would. - Thank you. Thank you very much.
0:56:26 > 0:56:29Food for thought for the young entrepreneurs.
0:56:29 > 0:56:32They now have four deals on the table.
0:56:32 > 0:56:34HENRY AND JJ WHISPER
0:56:34 > 0:56:37Shall we go... Yeah, I like her.
0:56:37 > 0:56:39She's had clients, as well.
0:56:39 > 0:56:42But will they choose to hold on to more equity,
0:56:42 > 0:56:46or to accept the extra cash that's on offer?
0:56:48 > 0:56:51I think we should just go ahead and take it.
0:56:51 > 0:56:53HE CLEARS HIS THROAT
0:56:56 > 0:56:58Sorry to keep you waiting.
0:57:00 > 0:57:01OK. We've made a decision.
0:57:05 > 0:57:08- Deborah, we'd like to accept your offer.- Excellent!
0:57:08 > 0:57:12- Well done, guys. - Good boys! Well done.
0:57:12 > 0:57:17- Henry and JJ have done it. - Really look forward to it! Exciting!
0:57:17 > 0:57:20It was a tense exchange, but they have the cash they needed,
0:57:20 > 0:57:23and now a very influential business partner.
0:57:23 > 0:57:27As impressive as they were, that last part just showed
0:57:27 > 0:57:30a real weakness. What they should have done
0:57:30 > 0:57:33was come back and try to negotiate. They didn't.
0:57:33 > 0:57:36- Oh, I don't know.- They had a strategy. They stuck to it.
0:57:36 > 0:57:39I think they're very good.
0:57:40 > 0:57:43Well, JJ, Henry, tell me why you took Deborah's offer.
0:57:43 > 0:57:45Was it just the equity?
0:57:45 > 0:57:48She was one of the Dragons that we wanted on board.
0:57:48 > 0:57:51We were only ever willing to go up to 20 percent.
0:57:51 > 0:57:53That was our plan. So it was the only option,
0:57:53 > 0:57:56and it was the right option, and we're very happy with it.
0:58:04 > 0:58:08It was a battle royal in the Den today, and a battle won
0:58:08 > 0:58:12by Deborah Meaden. We know that competition between companies
0:58:12 > 0:58:15can give consumers good deals. Well, this particular competition
0:58:15 > 0:58:21between the Dragons gave Henry and JJ a deal on their terms.
0:58:21 > 0:58:25If you'd like to know more about how Henry and JJ came to their decision,
0:58:25 > 0:58:29press the red button now for all the post-Den reaction.
0:58:29 > 0:58:32And, if you have a business that could do as well in the Den,
0:58:32 > 0:58:38why not apply for the programme? Just go to bbc.co.uk/dragonsden.
0:58:38 > 0:58:40Goodbye.
0:58:41 > 0:58:43Next time on Dragons' Den...
0:58:43 > 0:58:46- Ugh! What?- That's so ticklish!
0:58:46 > 0:58:48- You've got fish on your feet. - I've got to tell you,
0:58:48 > 0:58:51- I think it's great.- Oh, thank you!
0:58:51 > 0:58:55How can you grow your business, if you can't motivate yourself
0:58:55 > 0:58:58to do what should have been the biggest pitch of your life?
0:58:58 > 0:59:01I'm going to make you an offer, but I want a higher percentage.
0:59:01 > 0:59:06Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:59:06 > 0:59:10E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk
0:59:10 > 0:59:10.