0:00:25 > 0:00:28These are the Dragons.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32Five of Britain's wealthiest and most-enterprising business leaders.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35They're about to make or break the dreams
0:00:35 > 0:00:37of dozens of budding entrepreneurs.
0:00:40 > 0:00:46You are trying to climb Mount Everest in your flip-flops.
0:00:46 > 0:00:47As far as I'm concerned,
0:00:47 > 0:00:51there's absolutely no way I would get involved.
0:00:51 > 0:00:56Your net asset value is minus. So you are worthless.
0:00:56 > 0:01:01I'm angry at this lot. They're totally, absolutely wrong.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04Without listening to what the other Dragons have got to say,
0:01:04 > 0:01:06I'd like to make you an offer.
0:01:10 > 0:01:13The multi-millionaire investors
0:01:13 > 0:01:16have each built up their fortunes from scratch.
0:01:17 > 0:01:21Hotel and health club owner, Duncan Bannatyne.
0:01:21 > 0:01:23Leisure industry expert, Deborah Meaden.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28Retail magnate, Theo Paphitis.
0:01:28 > 0:01:30Telecoms giant Peter Jones.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36And Hilary Devey, who made her millions in the haulage industry.
0:01:37 > 0:01:41The Dragons have the credentials, the contacts, the commitment
0:01:41 > 0:01:44and the cash ready to invest.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46But only in the right business.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48Will any of these hopeful entrepreneurs
0:01:48 > 0:01:50walk away with their money?
0:01:57 > 0:02:00Welcome to the Dragon's Den.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02Anxious entrepreneurs are ready and waiting
0:02:02 > 0:02:05to face our multi-millionaire investors
0:02:05 > 0:02:08in what could be one of the toughest meetings of their lives.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11The Dragons are committed to investing their own cash
0:02:11 > 0:02:13in the best ideas that come before them,
0:02:13 > 0:02:17but getting that money is a difficult challenge.
0:02:17 > 0:02:19But if business was easy, we'd all be millionaires.
0:02:21 > 0:02:22First, Michelle Savage from Bury
0:02:22 > 0:02:25brings a touch of glamour into the Den.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Can she convince the Dragons to stump up the cash
0:02:27 > 0:02:29to help grow her business?
0:02:55 > 0:02:57Hi, my name's Michelle Savage.
0:02:57 > 0:03:02I'm here today to introduce to you my invention called Savvylash.
0:03:02 > 0:03:08I'm pitching for £50,000 investment for 20% in the company.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11In truth, mascara is difficult to apply on yourself or others.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14Eyelashes sticking together are inevitable,
0:03:14 > 0:03:16and sometimes they go a little bit clumpy.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19For many years, I applied mascara,
0:03:19 > 0:03:23then used a pin to separate my eyelashes to achieve lash perfection.
0:03:23 > 0:03:28Savvylash is a cosmetic tool that's been designed to safely
0:03:28 > 0:03:33and hygienically separate individual eyelashes after applying any mascara.
0:03:33 > 0:03:34SHE COUGHS
0:03:34 > 0:03:40Currently, UK market sales are worth £332 million. It is huge business.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46I've managed to get Savvylash to some key people in the beauty industry,
0:03:46 > 0:03:49celebrity make-up artist Jemma Kidd is also happy
0:03:49 > 0:03:52to be associated with Savvylash.
0:03:52 > 0:03:54She's mentioned it in her Beauty Bible book
0:03:54 > 0:03:57as an essential tool kit to have for make-up artists.
0:03:57 > 0:04:03And the global cosmetic company MAC have also trialled Savvylash for me.
0:04:03 > 0:04:09It's patented, it's been featured in Grazia, Now!, New, Look magazine.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12I've brought Alicia, my daughter, to show you and give you an example.
0:04:12 > 0:04:16If I was a make-up artist - I'll just go round this side -
0:04:16 > 0:04:20I would use the tool - if you'll just close our eyes for me, please.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24And I would just gently just go down the lashes
0:04:24 > 0:04:27to individually separate them.
0:04:30 > 0:04:31It's that easy.
0:04:31 > 0:04:35Would anyone like to come up and have a look at Alisha's eyelashes?
0:04:35 > 0:04:36Yes, I would.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42An upbeat and self-assured pitch
0:04:42 > 0:04:45from trained make-up artist Michelle Savage.
0:04:45 > 0:04:47In return for a 20% stake...
0:04:47 > 0:04:49Simple. But effective.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53She needs a £50,000 investment to help launch
0:04:53 > 0:04:57her eyelash-defining cosmetic tool onto the mass market.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01- That's the packaging. Thank you.- Thank you.
0:05:01 > 0:05:02Deborah Meaden looks intrigued.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08Hi, Michelle, I'm Deborah. I understand the issue.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11I mean, when you talk about the things you've achieved,
0:05:11 > 0:05:15the people you spoken to, it sounds like, "Wow!".
0:05:15 > 0:05:17So, how long have you had this in production?
0:05:17 > 0:05:23I started in 2007 and I had a short run of 2,000 units done.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27- And how many of those have you sold? - I have sold 1,795.
0:05:27 > 0:05:31How does that break down over the years?
0:05:31 > 0:05:36Well, Year One, I did sales of 3,500.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39- Pounds?- Yeah, yeah.
0:05:39 > 0:05:45It retails at £4.99. And the year after I got sales of nearly £8,000.
0:05:45 > 0:05:49The third year, because I didn't have any time to spend on it,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52the sales dropped a little bit to just under £1,000.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54OK.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58We've got a dichotomy here, because you talked about, at the beginning,
0:05:58 > 0:06:03getting lots of PR and people said fantastic things about your product.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06For me, night should then follow day, you should get traction,
0:06:06 > 0:06:09there should be more business coming your way.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12What is a bit alarming is that you had a little bit of activity
0:06:12 > 0:06:16and then a bit more activity, but really not a huge amount,
0:06:16 > 0:06:17and then it drops off a cliff.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20I believe in my product, Deborah, and there is a need...
0:06:20 > 0:06:23I'm not asking if you believe in it. I guarantee you,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26every person who comes in believes in their product.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29- Everybody. This is not a unique selling point.- Yeah.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34A frank opening exchange,
0:06:34 > 0:06:38and the passionate entrepreneur's initial confidence is dented.
0:06:38 > 0:06:41Will Hilary Devey help get Michelle's pitch back on track?
0:06:44 > 0:06:48- Right, Michelle, I like the product. - Thank you.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52- Tell me about you.- Right. - What's your background?
0:06:52 > 0:06:55I work full-time for Greater Manchester Police.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57Is this why you haven't focused on this?
0:06:57 > 0:06:59I've worked for the police the 23 years
0:06:59 > 0:07:03and the wake-up call I had was, "Your job's under review
0:07:03 > 0:07:08"with possible redundancy", and what I found myself doing was thinking,
0:07:08 > 0:07:11where has 23 years gone of working for the police?
0:07:11 > 0:07:13What I don't want is the next 23 years thinking
0:07:13 > 0:07:17what I have would have, should have, could have done with my product.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21What about the other products available on the market?
0:07:21 > 0:07:23- There are combs you can get. - I've brought a comb.
0:07:23 > 0:07:28The thing with a comb is, you can't individually separate your lashes.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31There is no manoeuvre there, so usually,
0:07:31 > 0:07:33when you put your mascara on, and you comb through,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36it does take a residue of your mascara off,
0:07:36 > 0:07:39and sometimes it can cause problems.
0:07:39 > 0:07:42But if I may go back to the mascara side of it,
0:07:42 > 0:07:44if mascara companies
0:07:44 > 0:07:47are inserting false eyelashes in their sales,
0:07:47 > 0:07:49mascara isn't delivering.
0:07:49 > 0:07:51They promised us, the consumer, buy this mascara -
0:07:51 > 0:07:55you'll have longer, thicker luscious lashes, and it doesn't work.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58In fact, the advertising agency did get involved.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01- You're absolutely right, Michelle. - You're misleading customers.
0:08:01 > 0:08:03We're talking here about a business opportunity.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07It is a business opportunity. They sold a million.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09Just so you know where I am,
0:08:09 > 0:08:13There's people here who know more about make-up than I will ever know.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16And I will leave it to those people, but I personally think
0:08:16 > 0:08:19this is not an idea that's ever going to make to any money,
0:08:19 > 0:08:21because the big operators can make
0:08:21 > 0:08:25their own combs and adjust them, so there's no money in this for you,
0:08:25 > 0:08:28so for that reason, I'm out.
0:08:29 > 0:08:31Mixed emotions for Michelle
0:08:31 > 0:08:36as two rival Dragons disagree about her product's viability.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39Will retail expert Theo Paphitis think it worthy
0:08:39 > 0:08:41of a £50,000 investment?
0:08:44 > 0:08:49Why, when I walk into Boots, I don't see this hanging off the peg?
0:08:49 > 0:08:53I started off with the tool for the consumer to use individually.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57The feedback I've had brought in other functions of the tool.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00I haven't got the money to redevelop the leaflet
0:09:00 > 0:09:02with all the additional functions.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05Why not just sell it for what it does, that you developed it for?
0:09:05 > 0:09:09I thought it would be more beneficial for the additional functions...
0:09:09 > 0:09:13Isn't that the second stage? Once you've got money in by selling this,
0:09:13 > 0:09:14then you can do that, one step at a time?
0:09:14 > 0:09:18Or do you believe it's not going to sell?
0:09:18 > 0:09:21- No, I believe it's going to sell. - So why didn't you sell it?
0:09:21 > 0:09:24That's a good question, actually, but I genuinely thought
0:09:24 > 0:09:27I would have more appeal if I went to them with additional functions.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Michelle, it's not a good question. It's obvious.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34Why is this not in the shop doing what you designed it for,
0:09:34 > 0:09:36that there's a big demand for it.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40You told us that everybody loves it and everybody needs it,
0:09:40 > 0:09:42so it should be sold for what it does.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44If you it do other things, that's later.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47Theo, all I can say is I genuinely thought
0:09:47 > 0:09:50I would stand a better chance if I repackaged it.
0:09:50 > 0:09:53- Did you try? - I didn't try, no, because...
0:09:53 > 0:09:55Oh don't look disappointed in me, Theo.
0:09:55 > 0:09:59Don't look disappointed in me. I made a mistake.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03A couple of phone calls...
0:10:04 > 0:10:08..and you would have been told that either
0:10:08 > 0:10:12"This is the best thing since sliced bread
0:10:12 > 0:10:16"but it needs this doing to it to make sure it works,"
0:10:16 > 0:10:20or, "Michelle, don't give up your day job."
0:10:20 > 0:10:25That's all you had to do. And you would have known.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28And because I don't know the answer to that question,
0:10:28 > 0:10:32I can't possibly make a decision.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36So I'm going to say, I'm out.
0:10:39 > 0:10:40A second blow,
0:10:40 > 0:10:44but the likeable entrepreneur still has three dragons left.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47Will Peter Jones agree with his rival's concerns?
0:10:50 > 0:10:54I think that you could have a really neat product here.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56I think it's really inventive.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58It's clearly different.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02- You're there with something, and you've got a patent.- Yeah.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06But I'm not totally convinced that it would sell.
0:11:06 > 0:11:07- Well...- But!
0:11:09 > 0:11:12You might convince your mascara manufacturer
0:11:12 > 0:11:15to actually buy your product.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19So it doesn't mean that you don't get a sale.
0:11:19 > 0:11:23It just means that you could sell it to the manufacturer,
0:11:23 > 0:11:27who ultimately would give this away free.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31And I think that might be a way for exploration for you.
0:11:31 > 0:11:35- But I'm not going to invest, and I say I'm out.- Thank you.
0:11:35 > 0:11:39Michelle, can I go back to the manufacturers and why
0:11:39 > 0:11:40they behave in the way they do,
0:11:40 > 0:11:44because what do they always bring out as the latest reason
0:11:44 > 0:11:50to gain market share, or to get you to buy new product?
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Are we talking about mascara in particular?
0:11:52 > 0:11:56- They are promising us longer, thicker luscious lashes.- Through what?
0:11:56 > 0:12:00- Buying their mascara. - No, through their wand.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02It's always the wand shape.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05It's always the shape that does this, or it's longer, fatter,
0:12:05 > 0:12:09so what they're doing, they're not oblivious to the issue.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12What they're doing is making sure that they're trying
0:12:12 > 0:12:14to solve the issue through product.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18Because that way, they sell an entire new mascara.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20And they're not silly,
0:12:20 > 0:12:25that will be part of their entire campaign, because this is good...
0:12:25 > 0:12:27but it's not rocket science.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32Whilst it's great that you've done this, and you've obviously taken
0:12:32 > 0:12:36a problem and tried to come up with a solution, I won't be investing.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38- And I'm out.- Thank you, Deborah.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45A detailed lesson in business from Deborah Meaden, but no cash.
0:12:45 > 0:12:50Michelle's investment dreams now rest solely with Hilary Devey.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54Michelle.
0:12:54 > 0:12:58This could be one of the best-selling make-up products
0:12:58 > 0:12:59that has ever been launched.
0:12:59 > 0:13:05- I love you, Hilary!- But not in its current form. But, there's a but...
0:13:06 > 0:13:08..not in its current form.
0:13:08 > 0:13:11How else could you convince me?
0:13:12 > 0:13:19Oh, Hilary, all I can say is, if I were fortunate to work with a Dragon,
0:13:19 > 0:13:22I would give it 100%, I really believe in my product.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25It has been sat idle while I've been doing other things
0:13:25 > 0:13:27and I haven't had the time to spend on it.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30You know what PR is like, there's big companies out there
0:13:30 > 0:13:33who invest massively in PR and advertising.
0:13:33 > 0:13:36Or is it because you're not a salesperson
0:13:36 > 0:13:38- or marketeer.- I'm neither.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41I wouldn't class myself as a salesperson at all.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45You don't get very far in business without some sort of...
0:13:45 > 0:13:49I'd like to say I could be a quick learner.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57I can't, at this moment, see it as investable.
0:13:57 > 0:14:03Because, I think you need a lot, lot more money than 50K.
0:14:03 > 0:14:09I think that doesn't even scratch the surface of what you need.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13So, for that reason, I've got to say sadly, that I'm out.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15Thank you very much for your time.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19A disappointing end for Michelle.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23Much praised for her product, but head rules heart in the Den,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25and she leaves with nothing.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30That was the most nerve-wracking thing I've ever done in my life.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34You are disappointed, because it's not like a quiz game
0:14:34 > 0:14:38where you don't win the money and you say "I've had a lovely day".
0:14:38 > 0:14:41You're coming here for investment, but it's not the end of the product.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51Now the Dragons aren't immune to the desire that many of us have
0:14:51 > 0:14:53to try and maintain a youthful complexion.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58So, Shropshire-based John Richardson must have hoped
0:14:58 > 0:15:01for a positive outcome when he asked for £75,000
0:15:01 > 0:15:04to market his all-natural anti-ageing product.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09The product itself provides a solution for ladies
0:15:09 > 0:15:11that would like Botox but don't really want
0:15:11 > 0:15:16to go through having their face injected or plastic surgery.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18Peter Jones needed only one thing to convince him.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21Do you use the product yourself?
0:15:21 > 0:15:25- Yes.- OK. If you tell me that you're 65, I'm in.
0:15:25 > 0:15:2863. Only joking. No, I'm 37.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31OK, you look older than that.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35Hilary Devey had an issue with his pitch.
0:15:35 > 0:15:41So you've brought the best-possible illustration
0:15:41 > 0:15:43of what this wonder cream will do?
0:15:43 > 0:15:46- Most people... - But it's not gone, has it?
0:15:46 > 0:15:51But it's massively diminished, because you've put in more elasticity
0:15:51 > 0:15:55back into the skin naturally through plant extracts.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58But it was Deborah Meaden's issue with John's knowledge
0:15:58 > 0:16:00of the product that ended his time in the Den.
0:16:00 > 0:16:03So how deep does this go into your epidermis?
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Right into the epidermis.
0:16:05 > 0:16:06No, not "right into".
0:16:06 > 0:16:11You should know how deep this can go into people's skin.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14It goes right into...
0:16:14 > 0:16:16No, no, what does "right in" mean?
0:16:16 > 0:16:20What? Into my heart? Does it go right into the inside of me?
0:16:20 > 0:16:22What does it do?
0:16:22 > 0:16:25The electro pulse waves go right to the nerve endings of the skin.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28Yeah, but the nerve endings are right there.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31Yeah? So how deep does it go?
0:16:34 > 0:16:38The scientific research says it is a little bit better, well, actually
0:16:38 > 0:16:42I can buy most creams and they'll make my skin a little bit better.
0:16:42 > 0:16:45As far as I'm concerned there's absolutely no way
0:16:45 > 0:16:48I would get involved, so I'm out.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56We often think of the Den as a place where new businesses are built,
0:16:56 > 0:17:00but sometimes even established ones want the value of a Dragon investor.
0:17:00 > 0:17:04Julian Lipton from Watford is here to pitch his family's company,
0:17:04 > 0:17:06which is over 20 years old.
0:17:06 > 0:17:10But now, under the ownership of a new generation, big plans are afoot.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13What will the multi-millionaires think of his ambitions?
0:17:43 > 0:17:46Hello, Dragons, my name is Julian Lipton.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48I'm the managing director of "The Nuttery".
0:17:48 > 0:17:52I'm here asking for a £100,000 investment
0:17:52 > 0:17:56in return for a 15% stake in my company.
0:17:56 > 0:17:58The Nuttery manufacture bird feeders.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00The company was started by my father
0:18:00 > 0:18:04and the concept is really simple, it's a cage within the cage.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08The small birds fly through the holes on the outside to go inside,
0:18:08 > 0:18:12and the squirrels can't get through because of the outer bars.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14And that's how The Nuttery was born.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17We supply around 300 accounts in the UK.
0:18:17 > 0:18:21Pet shops, garden centres, wholesale, mail order
0:18:21 > 0:18:25and we also export some product to Europe and the USA as well.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28In the UK, three out of four households feed the birds,
0:18:28 > 0:18:33and the industry is estimated to be worth around £200 million per year.
0:18:33 > 0:18:35Thank you very much for listening.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38I have some samples for you to have a look at.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40And, any questions?
0:18:42 > 0:18:47An efficient pitch from experienced family businessmen Julian Lipton.
0:18:47 > 0:18:51He needs a £100,000 cash injection to fund a new phase of growth
0:18:51 > 0:18:54for his innovative bird-feeding business,
0:18:54 > 0:18:58and he's willing to part with 15%.
0:18:58 > 0:19:02Duncan Ballantyne wants to scrutinise the make-up of the company.
0:19:05 > 0:19:09Thank you, Julian. You said this company was started by your father.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11Yes.
0:19:11 > 0:19:14- So how long has it been in existence?- 20 years.- 20 years?- Yes.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19So let's see how much profit you made in the last 20 years
0:19:19 > 0:19:20with The Nuttery.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24So, the last year, 2009/10, we turned over £1.2 million.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28£395,000 gross profit.
0:19:29 > 0:19:35- The net profit was around £98,000. - The previous year?- £888,000.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37Gross profit of 274.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41And a loss of 37,000.
0:19:42 > 0:19:43And the year before?
0:19:43 > 0:19:48A very similar turnover for the year before, and a loss of 27,000.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50What caused the losses?
0:19:50 > 0:19:53The last 20 years, this has been a family-run business,
0:19:53 > 0:19:55but we were getting more and more work coming in
0:19:55 > 0:19:58and we decided to put management teams in place.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01Also, the company has had consistent turnover
0:20:01 > 0:20:03and variable profit for the last 20 years.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06We've had years where the profit has been £200-220,000
0:20:06 > 0:20:09and we've had years where we've lost money as well.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12The reality is, it's been very successful.
0:20:12 > 0:20:15There's nothing unusual
0:20:15 > 0:20:18in a mature business having a varied trading history,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21and Justin's belief in his company is clear.
0:20:21 > 0:20:26Now, Peter Jones wants to drill down further into the financials.
0:20:28 > 0:20:30- Julian?- Yes.- Hi.
0:20:30 > 0:20:35Give me an idea of the net asset value, where we sit today?
0:20:35 > 0:20:37- £27,000 on the balance sheet. - Positive?
0:20:37 > 0:20:40- Positive.- We have good projections.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42We believe that turnover this year
0:20:42 > 0:20:45will be between £750,000 and £800,000.
0:20:46 > 0:20:50- So you're going to drop by nearly 40%?- We will drop this year, yes.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54- Why?- There's a number of reasons. The, the, the key thing is...
0:20:54 > 0:20:56last year, we picked up a very large order.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00It was a one-off of about £350,000,
0:21:00 > 0:21:03so that made a difference to the turnover figures.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07- What will be the bottom line this year?- We estimate a loss of £78,000.
0:21:07 > 0:21:11So you will take your overall...
0:21:12 > 0:21:16..net asset value of that operation down to -£49,000.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21If you're asking about the value of the company, that would be the case.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26But we've had regular gross profit over the last however many years.
0:21:26 > 0:21:27That's irrelevant.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30- Your net asset value is minus.- Sure.
0:21:30 > 0:21:35- So you are worthless.- OK.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37- Well, you are.- OK.
0:21:39 > 0:21:43Differing opinions between the potential investor and the would-be investee.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45Justin is struggling
0:21:45 > 0:21:49to consolidate his position in the Den.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51Will Deborah Meaden make it any easier for him?
0:21:53 > 0:21:56Julian, I'm Deborah.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59This is nice, the way you've come in with these things.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01All of those things are lovely.
0:22:01 > 0:22:06But you're in a grown-up business that's been around a long time.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08You've got to make some money
0:22:08 > 0:22:12at some point to make your business valuable. You're not making money, are you?
0:22:12 > 0:22:14That's not the case.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17We've sold 1.5 million feeders over the last 20 years.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21Next year we're predicting a profit of £830,000, and I believe...
0:22:21 > 0:22:23- Sorry?- £83,000, I beg your pardon.
0:22:23 > 0:22:28Also, we have just taken on a new design team.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31Our focus has been completely on the future and pushing forward.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36We have set about designing a much more contemporary range.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40If I show you an example of the product, this is the Acorn.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43This is a squirrel-proof feeder, stylish.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45We think customers are looking for something
0:22:45 > 0:22:47more design-led to put in their garden.
0:22:47 > 0:22:51Part of the other aspect of any investment
0:22:51 > 0:22:54would be the redevelopment of our existing range.
0:22:54 > 0:22:58But there is a plethora of designs, aren't there?
0:22:58 > 0:23:01Do you know, I believe I have got
0:23:01 > 0:23:04the biggest collection of bird feeders in the world.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07I think my husband, every time he sees a new one,
0:23:07 > 0:23:09we have it up in the tree.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12They're all shapes and sizes. So it's not like you'll own that space.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15Deborah, the Nuttery are...
0:23:15 > 0:23:19if you go into a garden centre and speak to our clients,
0:23:19 > 0:23:22we're the most respected brand,
0:23:22 > 0:23:25particularly for squirrel-proof bird feeders, in the UK.
0:23:26 > 0:23:30Julian, is there something unique about your feeder?
0:23:30 > 0:23:33The fact that you've got the two cages,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35are you the only people doing this?
0:23:35 > 0:23:37Is this something you've got protected, you own,
0:23:37 > 0:23:40and nobody in the world can have a twin cage feeder?
0:23:40 > 0:23:43The patent which was granted to us,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46which expires in two years' time,
0:23:46 > 0:23:49the concept of that patent was a cage within a cage.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52Slow down, because I think I might have something here.
0:23:52 > 0:23:58- So there was a patent that was granted when?- 1993.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02- So it expires in two years' time? - 2014.- What happens after that?
0:24:02 > 0:24:06Well, after that we continue doing what we're hoping to do,
0:24:06 > 0:24:10which is to keep bringing out new products and innovative ideas.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14If we feel something needs to be protected, we will protect it.
0:24:14 > 0:24:20So basically, you're now redesigning because in two years' time,
0:24:20 > 0:24:24the business you're asking me to invest £100,000 in
0:24:24 > 0:24:27- loses its intellectual rights?- Yes.
0:24:30 > 0:24:33That would make it very difficult for me to invest in you.
0:24:33 > 0:24:36I'm afraid you've lost me. I can't invest, so I'm out.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Unease over its profitability
0:24:41 > 0:24:44and now concerns over the longevity of the product itself.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46Justin loses his first Dragon.
0:24:46 > 0:24:50And Duncan Bannatyne does not look convinced either.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54Julian, the valuation is crazy.
0:24:56 > 0:25:01I'm buying companies at the moment with three times the profit...
0:25:01 > 0:25:03at about £300,000.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06- But you've asked for an investment of £666,000.- Yes.
0:25:08 > 0:25:09If I was to sell the business today,
0:25:09 > 0:25:13we would take the gross profit that the business has,
0:25:13 > 0:25:14brand, regular turnover.
0:25:14 > 0:25:18Projected profits are moving forward as well. We have existing clients
0:25:18 > 0:25:23that have given us commitments and are working with us on an ongoing basis.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27I'm sorry. Great product,
0:25:27 > 0:25:30but there are so many reasons not to invest.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33So regretfully, Julian, I've got to say sorry, but I'm out.
0:25:33 > 0:25:38Julian, I don't get the disconnection between...
0:25:38 > 0:25:43your mind is kind of not connecting sales with profit.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45I do understand the difference.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49I'm sure you understand the difference, but you keep reiterating
0:25:49 > 0:25:51and focusing, and I'm not surprised,
0:25:51 > 0:25:54on turnover and gross profit and completely ignoring the fact
0:25:54 > 0:25:58that you consistently have a track record of losing money
0:25:58 > 0:26:02except for one year when you did make £98,000, which by your own admission,
0:26:02 > 0:26:05had an exceptional item in it.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08When anybody looks to value a business,
0:26:08 > 0:26:11they're looking at trends and the underlying profits.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13And there are none.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15If you're looking at the profit this year...
0:26:15 > 0:26:20Or last year. £100,000 last year with an exceptional order.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22The year before, -£37,000.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25- And next year, we are predicting a profit.- You should have come in
0:26:25 > 0:26:28red hot, understanding we're investors.
0:26:28 > 0:26:33You're not a start-up trying to sell an idea - "I want your help, please."
0:26:33 > 0:26:35You're trying to sell us a grown-up investment.
0:26:35 > 0:26:37And in selling us a grown-up investment,
0:26:37 > 0:26:42you needed to be absolutely on it and frankly, you haven't been.
0:26:42 > 0:26:45So I can't invest, and I'm out.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48- Thank you.- Julian, can I tell you where I am?- Yes.
0:26:48 > 0:26:53I don't see me getting any return on this whatsoever.
0:26:53 > 0:26:57Commercially, it's not a route that I would want to walk down.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59- I'm sorry, I'm out.- Thank you.
0:27:03 > 0:27:08Three more Dragons out, and the entrepreneur's steadfast belief in his business
0:27:08 > 0:27:12seems only to have alienated the multi-millionaires.
0:27:12 > 0:27:17Now only Peter Jones can save Julian's investment needs.
0:27:20 > 0:27:25I do think that you've made a decent presentation
0:27:25 > 0:27:27very, very complicated.
0:27:27 > 0:27:30I acknowledge that I've made mistakes. I put it down to nerves.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33This business, I'm passionate about.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37I've seen existing products that I know we can sell
0:27:37 > 0:27:40large quantities of, but we just can't get over that hurdle.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42There's a lot of work to be done.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44We have fantastic ideas that I want to take forward.
0:27:44 > 0:27:50- I need help. I'm not denying that that's the case.- Julian...
0:27:50 > 0:27:52what you should have done
0:27:52 > 0:27:55was to pitch to me on the basis of,
0:27:55 > 0:27:57"It's a 20-year-old business.
0:27:57 > 0:28:03"It's got some real heritage. But it's struggling. We're running out of time with our IP.
0:28:03 > 0:28:04"It's not happening for us,
0:28:04 > 0:28:07"but I've got some new ideas to take that forward.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10"I'm looking for you to invest money
0:28:10 > 0:28:15"so I can take this family business and make it into something special.
0:28:15 > 0:28:16"And for that, I want £100,000."
0:28:16 > 0:28:21I think your whole pitch today would have been very different.
0:28:21 > 0:28:25But unfortunately, it's not an investment I'll take forward today.
0:28:25 > 0:28:28- OK.- I'm out.- Thank you.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33A bitter disappointment for Julian.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36It seems the more experienced the entrepreneur,
0:28:36 > 0:28:38the more demanding the Dragons will be.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40He leaves with nothing.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45I didn't expect the financial interrogation
0:28:45 > 0:28:47quite as much as it happened.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49But I think there were valid questions
0:28:49 > 0:28:52that I should have been more prepared for.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54It was an interesting experience.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05Inspiration for new businesses can be found in many places,
0:29:05 > 0:29:08but some entrepreneurs need look no further than their day-job.
0:29:08 > 0:29:13This was true for Glaswegian mobility salesman Fraser Sinnott,
0:29:13 > 0:29:19who wanted £120,000 to manufacture his solution for those who need help with their weekly shop.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23The idea we've come up with
0:29:23 > 0:29:26is an easy self-service coin-operated mobility service
0:29:26 > 0:29:31which can be put into any size shopping centre and other leisure facilities.
0:29:31 > 0:29:34The customer inserts £5 into the coin op.
0:29:34 > 0:29:38When they're finished, they return the scooter and receive a £2 refund.
0:29:38 > 0:29:42Hilary Devey had some experience in the area.
0:29:43 > 0:29:48Mother, who's now passed away, God bless her soul, had several of these mobility scooters
0:29:48 > 0:29:52because after a month, she managed to break them all. So I do agree there is a need.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54Have you done any projections?
0:29:54 > 0:29:58We're expecting them to be hired out three times a day.
0:29:58 > 0:30:01Where've you got that from? You didn't base it on MY mother -
0:30:01 > 0:30:05once you let her loose on one, that was it. She didn't come back till five o'clock.
0:30:07 > 0:30:11It wasn't a fear of scooter hogging that concerned Duncan Bannatyne.
0:30:11 > 0:30:14Why do you want £120,000?
0:30:14 > 0:30:18- To build docking stations. - How many?- 50.
0:30:18 > 0:30:23But are you going to tell me any one shopping centre that says they're going to take this?
0:30:23 > 0:30:28- Clydebank Shopping Centre in Glasgow. - I have to tell you, Clydebank Shopping Centre
0:30:28 > 0:30:33is in Clydebank, which is not in Glasgow. Very upset that you would call Clydebank Glasgow.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36- PETER:- Why?- Cos I'm from Clydebank, not Glasgow.
0:30:36 > 0:30:40OK? What's it got to do with you? Jaggy bunnet wallop.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43Fortunately, no jaggy bunnet wallop for Peter Jones.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47But unfortunately for Fraser, there was no cash on offer.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50You can trial these,
0:30:50 > 0:30:53but you're choosing to ignore that
0:30:53 > 0:30:57and risk £120,000.
0:30:57 > 0:30:59Fraser, that's not right thinking.
0:30:59 > 0:31:00Trial this.
0:31:00 > 0:31:04But you're not going to do it with my £120,000.
0:31:04 > 0:31:06I'm out.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11So far tonight, all the entrepreneurs
0:31:11 > 0:31:14have failed to convince the Dragons to part with their cash.
0:31:14 > 0:31:1850K doesn't even scratch the surface of what you need.
0:31:18 > 0:31:19I'm out.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22If you've ever wondered how cars, cannons and castles
0:31:22 > 0:31:26get into the Den, press the red button at the end of the programme
0:31:26 > 0:31:28for a behind-the-scenes peek.
0:31:31 > 0:31:36Next into the Den is father of two Nathan Pearson from Chester.
0:31:36 > 0:31:39He turned his first profit at seven years old,
0:31:39 > 0:31:42selling soft drinks to his football-playing friends.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45Now aged 26, can he persuade the Dragons
0:31:45 > 0:31:48his latest business idea is worthy of investment?
0:32:18 > 0:32:20Hello, Dragons.
0:32:20 > 0:32:25My name is Nathan Pearson, and I'm here today to seek £50,000
0:32:25 > 0:32:29in exchange for a 25% equity share in my company, Romeo Products Ltd.
0:32:31 > 0:32:36I'd also like to introduce myself as the inventor of the Romeo Shelf.
0:32:47 > 0:32:50Last year, I lost my job
0:32:50 > 0:32:52and in between attending interviews,
0:32:52 > 0:32:54I pursued this idea.
0:32:54 > 0:32:58Some months later and with the addition of a partner,
0:32:58 > 0:33:03the idea was transformed into a sleek and viable product.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06In an apartment without our product,
0:33:06 > 0:33:09the consumer is left...
0:33:09 > 0:33:12to hold drinks in their hand,
0:33:12 > 0:33:15or alternatively place them on the floor.
0:33:16 > 0:33:20This can often lead to accidents.
0:33:22 > 0:33:24In an apartment...
0:33:25 > 0:33:28..with our product,
0:33:28 > 0:33:33the area is instantly transformed.
0:33:33 > 0:33:38The Romeo Shelf can be securely attached to the two most common types of Juliet balcony.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45Romeo...meets Juliet.
0:33:47 > 0:33:52We now require tooling, advertising and stock.
0:33:52 > 0:33:55As Juliet would have said, being in the same position as me...
0:33:55 > 0:34:00Dragons, dragons, wherefore art thou, Dragons?
0:34:00 > 0:34:01Thank you very much for your time.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12It's not often that Shakespeare is quoted in the Den,
0:34:12 > 0:34:18but Chester-based Nathan Pearson hopes it'll help secure the £50,000 investment he needs.
0:34:18 > 0:34:23On offer is 25% of his innovative outdoor shelving system.
0:34:23 > 0:34:26But Duncan Bannatyne looks sceptical.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32OK, Nathan, I'm confident
0:34:32 > 0:34:34that I've seen similar types of brackets.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36So why would you need tooling?
0:34:36 > 0:34:39Why can't you attach them to the glass and sell them like that?
0:34:39 > 0:34:47OK. Currently, there are brackets which will hold in place glass.
0:34:47 > 0:34:53But there isn't a bracket which will fold upwards or downwards.
0:34:53 > 0:34:56That's what we have created.
0:34:56 > 0:34:58- OK.- The reason it needs to fold down
0:34:58 > 0:35:03is because of building regulations with these types of balconies.
0:35:04 > 0:35:07They stipulate no more than a 100mm gap
0:35:07 > 0:35:10in between the French doors and the balcony.
0:35:10 > 0:35:13If that was the case,
0:35:13 > 0:35:17the shelf itself would need to be no more than 100 mm,
0:35:17 > 0:35:20which would make it quite impractical.
0:35:20 > 0:35:23So the concept of it folding down means that the doors can be closed.
0:35:23 > 0:35:27So tell me about... You lost your job.
0:35:27 > 0:35:29What type of job were you in?
0:35:29 > 0:35:33I worked in the hazardous waste industry.
0:35:35 > 0:35:39Basically... my intention was to go to university.
0:35:39 > 0:35:45- Yep.- I did get to university, but I had to leave after two weeks.
0:35:45 > 0:35:48- Why did you have to leave university?- Um...
0:35:49 > 0:35:53Because of problems at home, basically.
0:35:53 > 0:35:59- My mum suffered with health problems, so I had to go back.- OK.
0:35:59 > 0:36:03But I've always wanted to try and stand on my own two feet.
0:36:04 > 0:36:07And I got myself
0:36:07 > 0:36:10into my full-time job, and that's what I've done since.
0:36:13 > 0:36:18The young entrepreneur's drive and determination has clearly impressed the Dragons.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20But what of the business on offer?
0:36:20 > 0:36:23Theo Paphitis wants to know.
0:36:25 > 0:36:30- Nathan, well done.- Thank you. - You're being creative.
0:36:30 > 0:36:34You're out there being entrepreneurial. Who owns the business?
0:36:34 > 0:36:35There's four of us.
0:36:35 > 0:36:37What do you own?
0:36:37 > 0:36:40- 37.5%.- You've got 37.5%.
0:36:42 > 0:36:46My partner, Jason, has 37.5%.
0:36:46 > 0:36:49- Did he put any money in? - Yes, he has put money in.
0:36:49 > 0:36:53- Tina has 12.5%.- Tina has 12.5%.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55And Ken has 12.5%.
0:36:55 > 0:36:59And what do Ken and Tina do?
0:36:59 > 0:37:01They own a marketing company.
0:37:01 > 0:37:05- How much did they put in? - 25% of £12,000.
0:37:05 > 0:37:08That's how much we've spent so far.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10Nathan, can I just clear something up?
0:37:10 > 0:37:13Tina and Ken - they put in...?
0:37:13 > 0:37:17- £3,000.- For their 25%.
0:37:17 > 0:37:24So I guess my next question is, why would I put in £50,000 for my 25%?
0:37:31 > 0:37:34Basically, what we're saying at the moment, as it stands,
0:37:34 > 0:37:38is that you value any Dragon's input
0:37:38 > 0:37:41considerably less than Tina and Ken's.
0:37:43 > 0:37:49Sorry. What's also happened outside of the cash investment is, er...
0:37:49 > 0:37:52we sold 25%
0:37:52 > 0:37:57for £37,000 worth of marketing.
0:37:57 > 0:38:02So actually, you're saying is they paid more than that, but it was sweat equity?
0:38:02 > 0:38:08- Yes.- OK. Has that manifested itself in something changing?
0:38:08 > 0:38:11Because it's not about how much work somebody does,
0:38:11 > 0:38:14it's about the effect they have on a business.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17We've got a letter of intent
0:38:17 > 0:38:21from the largest UK online shelving supplier.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24What's the value of that order - this letter of intent?
0:38:26 > 0:38:29That'll be for £2,500.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32You see, Nathan, this company has not moved on an awful lot.
0:38:32 > 0:38:35But they've also created a marketing campaign.
0:38:35 > 0:38:37Exposure is not enough on its own.
0:38:37 > 0:38:39It's got to turn into orders.
0:38:44 > 0:38:48A nerve-racking exchange for Nathan, but all five Dragons are still in.
0:38:48 > 0:38:51Peter Jones now looks ready to show his hand.
0:38:55 > 0:38:59Nathan, I think you've done a really good job to take a product and put it out there.
0:39:00 > 0:39:04And I think that people will buy it for its novelty factor.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08But it will not be bought in volume
0:39:08 > 0:39:11to make it a business
0:39:11 > 0:39:13that will actually make you money.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18And it's not going to make me money at £50,000.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22So for that reason, Nathan, unfortunately I'm out.
0:39:22 > 0:39:23OK. Thank you.
0:39:24 > 0:39:26- HILARY:- Nathan, I think you've done
0:39:26 > 0:39:29- remarkably well.- Thank you.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32What you have created is a space creator.
0:39:32 > 0:39:35I've been to these type of apartments,
0:39:35 > 0:39:37- and space is at a premium in them. - It is.
0:39:37 > 0:39:41But I think I would think more laterally. And you should...
0:39:41 > 0:39:46think about expanding that shelf, not just for a bottle and a glass,
0:39:46 > 0:39:50- but actually doing it as a buffet shelf.- OK.
0:39:51 > 0:39:54But I think you've a long way to go before you get there.
0:39:56 > 0:39:57I'm not prepared to invest in it.
0:39:57 > 0:39:59- I'm sorry, I'm out.- Thank you.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07Valuable advice, but no offers of investment.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10Deborah Meaden has made up her mind, too.
0:40:13 > 0:40:17I think you presented really well. I like your thought process.
0:40:17 > 0:40:19You've come up with a solution to something,
0:40:19 > 0:40:22and you've done it. However...
0:40:22 > 0:40:27you've got experienced businesspeople behind you who've allowed you to come in here
0:40:27 > 0:40:30asking us to invest in a structure
0:40:30 > 0:40:32that is completely unworkable,
0:40:32 > 0:40:37because you're asking for £50,000.
0:40:37 > 0:40:42When I look at how everybody else has invested and the value I'm going to bring,
0:40:42 > 0:40:44I would have to own...
0:40:44 > 0:40:48actually, 100% of the company to be on level pegging.
0:40:48 > 0:40:52So it's completely knocked any kind of deal
0:40:52 > 0:40:55or arrangement we could have out of the window.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59I haven't even gone into how much they'd be happy to dilute.
0:40:59 > 0:41:03You've made it, for me, uninvestable.
0:41:04 > 0:41:07- So I'm out.- All right, thank you.
0:41:08 > 0:41:13Nathan, I'm going to encourage you.
0:41:13 > 0:41:17and say good on you that you thought of something, got it to this stage.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21And then I'm going to go on and say...
0:41:21 > 0:41:26you've come into the Den with a deal that irritates.
0:41:26 > 0:41:33This is not something that I can even contemplate investing in,
0:41:33 > 0:41:36which is disappointing because that's why I'm here.
0:41:36 > 0:41:39- OK.- So I'm out.- All right. Thank you.
0:41:41 > 0:41:43- DUNCAN:- I'm angry, Nathan.
0:41:43 > 0:41:46But I'm not angry at you. I'm angry at this lot.
0:41:46 > 0:41:48They're totally, absolutely wrong.
0:41:48 > 0:41:52It doesn't matter what the first-stage investors got,
0:41:52 > 0:41:54what price they paid. It's totally irrelevant.
0:41:54 > 0:41:58It's what the product is worth today that matters. Nothing else.
0:42:00 > 0:42:02But my problem is,
0:42:02 > 0:42:04I don't think you'll sell enough.
0:42:04 > 0:42:08As far as I'm concerned, you should all continue your full-time jobs
0:42:08 > 0:42:11and have it as a part-time business.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13I think you can sell some on your website,
0:42:13 > 0:42:17but not enough to make it viable for an investor like myself.
0:42:20 > 0:42:24- For that reason, I'm sorry, Nathan, but I'm out.- OK.- Good luck.
0:42:24 > 0:42:27- HILARY:- Good luck, Nathan. - Thank you.
0:42:27 > 0:42:30Nathan may not have received an investment,
0:42:30 > 0:42:34but his pitch certainly made an impact with the Dragons.
0:42:34 > 0:42:37- Did you lot get out the wrong side of bed?- I've never heard so much rubbish!
0:42:37 > 0:42:40What does it matter what the other shareholders paid?
0:42:40 > 0:42:43If something moves on in value,
0:42:43 > 0:42:46then it's OK if shareholders get a discounted price.
0:42:46 > 0:42:51- But it hasn't moved on in value. - They didn't get a discounted price - they got the price on that day.
0:42:51 > 0:42:55- And it hasn't changed.- If it hasn't changed, it hasn't changed.
0:42:55 > 0:43:00So it's not worth any more money. I'm not having that conversation with you. It's ridiculous.
0:43:03 > 0:43:07Other entrepreneurs who tried and failed in the Den
0:43:07 > 0:43:10were friends William Dolman and Keith Matthews,
0:43:10 > 0:43:14who needed £150,000 to fund their redesign
0:43:14 > 0:43:16of our plug-and-socket system.
0:43:16 > 0:43:20The Dolman Cobra is a unique invention,
0:43:20 > 0:43:23designed to eliminate most of the associated problems with plugs.
0:43:23 > 0:43:27If you catch your feet on a trailing cable,
0:43:27 > 0:43:29the plug pulls out safely.
0:43:29 > 0:43:33To replace, back in the socket, and press until fully in.
0:43:33 > 0:43:35Simple and easy to use.
0:43:35 > 0:43:39The Dragons were unanimous in their praise for the concept.
0:43:40 > 0:43:41It looks really inventive.
0:43:41 > 0:43:45But you're going to come up against a level of resistance
0:43:45 > 0:43:47for many, many, many years to come.
0:43:47 > 0:43:51Peter, you don't remember the change from round pin to square pin, do you?
0:43:51 > 0:43:53No.
0:43:53 > 0:43:58I remember it, but if you change the sockets, you'd have to convince every householder to change it.
0:43:58 > 0:44:02That's not going to happen - not in my lifetime.
0:44:02 > 0:44:06- But that's not to say it couldn't happen in mine. - HE CHUCKLES
0:44:06 > 0:44:11In the end, the multi-millionaires were also united in their analysis of the investment proposition.
0:44:11 > 0:44:17I would say, it's a shame that you weren't here to design the electric plug first.
0:44:17 > 0:44:19Cos I think it's better.
0:44:19 > 0:44:23The problem is, this is so deeply rooted
0:44:23 > 0:44:28into the infrastructure of the country, it's going to be a nightmare.
0:44:28 > 0:44:32You are trying to climb Mount Everest
0:44:32 > 0:44:34in your flip-flops.
0:44:34 > 0:44:36I'm out.
0:44:38 > 0:44:41London-based business partners Rob Beresford and Emma Kennedy
0:44:41 > 0:44:45hoped consumer power would tempt the Dragons
0:44:45 > 0:44:48to invest £200,000 in their online venture.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52Our website brings hundreds of people together
0:44:52 > 0:44:56to get fabulous deals across a range of products and services.
0:44:56 > 0:44:58What we do is commonly referred to as group buying.
0:44:58 > 0:45:02We do have two significant competitors -
0:45:02 > 0:45:05Groupon was valued at 6 billion.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10This group of investors have much experience of e-commerce
0:45:10 > 0:45:13and were quick to ask the key questions.
0:45:13 > 0:45:16£200,000 - what are you going to do with it?
0:45:16 > 0:45:20£150,000 we have allotted to online advertising,
0:45:20 > 0:45:26- the bulk of it, over three months. - So, what happens when we run out of money in three months' time?
0:45:26 > 0:45:32- If it was to happen, then we would have to look for more money. - Once we start advertising,
0:45:32 > 0:45:34it will take what we do to a whole new level.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37In the end, Dragon power spoke,
0:45:37 > 0:45:41and Rob and Emma left the Den without the investment they needed.
0:45:41 > 0:45:45In my opinion, this business is flawed before it starts.
0:45:45 > 0:45:49The burn in this business is the fastest burn rate you can imagine.
0:45:49 > 0:45:51I think you're bang on, Peter.
0:45:51 > 0:45:55Every single online business I've invested in,
0:45:55 > 0:46:00I have known when I've invested there's going to be a call for cash.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04The idea's good, but you're going to have to throw a lot of money at this
0:46:04 > 0:46:07if you're going to stand any chance whatsoever.
0:46:07 > 0:46:08I'm out.
0:46:13 > 0:46:17Friends Andrea McDowall and Rebecca Baldwin from London are next into the Den.
0:46:17 > 0:46:21They've taken their ten years of experience in one industry
0:46:21 > 0:46:23and found a fresh way to apply it in business.
0:46:23 > 0:46:25Will it impress the Dragons?
0:46:46 > 0:46:47Hi, there, Dragons.
0:46:47 > 0:46:51My name is Andrea, and this is my business partner, Becs.
0:46:51 > 0:46:54And together, we run a country company called Shoot It Yourself.
0:46:54 > 0:46:58We've come into the Den today to ask for £60,000
0:46:58 > 0:47:00in return for 20%.
0:47:00 > 0:47:03We are the only wedding videography company
0:47:03 > 0:47:07that hires out broadcast-quality video cameras to be given to friends and family
0:47:07 > 0:47:11the day before their wedding, and then they take it in turns to film the day.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14And we edit whatever they film into a professional wedding DVD.
0:47:14 > 0:47:19I came up with the idea whilst trying to plan my own wedding back in 2009.
0:47:20 > 0:47:23As someone with ten years' experience in television,
0:47:23 > 0:47:27I was really surprised there wasn't a cheaper and more fun alternative
0:47:27 > 0:47:30to the more traditional wedding videographer.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33We offer a one-camera package for £849,
0:47:33 > 0:47:37and a two-camera package for £949.
0:47:38 > 0:47:41So, Becs is going to give you out some DVDs.
0:47:41 > 0:47:45And then I'm going to play you a brief video to show why our videos are different.
0:47:47 > 0:47:51There you go. This is what the finished product looks like.
0:47:53 > 0:47:54Thank you.
0:48:01 > 0:48:03'It's going really well.
0:48:03 > 0:48:06- 'Where are the shirts? - Tell everyone we'll do tomorrow.
0:48:07 > 0:48:08'I'm married!
0:48:08 > 0:48:11'Don't bring her back!
0:48:11 > 0:48:14- '116 people officially cried! - What are their names again?
0:48:14 > 0:48:16'# Cos I found love... #'
0:48:16 > 0:48:20'Happy birthday! Or...holiday?'
0:48:26 > 0:48:29So, have you got any questions?
0:48:33 > 0:48:38An enthusiastic pitch by young mums Andrea McDowell and Rebecca Baldwin from Clapham.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40They want to modernise the nation's wedding videos,
0:48:40 > 0:48:44and need a £60,000 investment to do so.
0:48:44 > 0:48:47In return, a 20% stake is on offer.
0:48:47 > 0:48:51But Peter Jones has some immediate concerns.
0:48:53 > 0:48:57Hi, I'm Peter. Erm...why is it so expensive?
0:48:57 > 0:49:00£849, to hire one camera?
0:49:00 > 0:49:06We started out charging £399, and it didn't quite cover our overheads.
0:49:06 > 0:49:11And we kept pressing the price up and up until we reached a point where,
0:49:11 > 0:49:13at £849, we felt that people were still booking.
0:49:13 > 0:49:17And we're getting 10 to 15 bookings every month.
0:49:18 > 0:49:23Give me a total figure that you're forecasting to sell this year.
0:49:23 > 0:49:27By the end of this year, net profit will be £74,000.
0:49:27 > 0:49:32By 2013, £119,000.
0:49:32 > 0:49:36So, you give somebody the camera, they pay you £849.
0:49:36 > 0:49:41How long does it then take you to edit that and send it back to them as a completed video?
0:49:41 > 0:49:45It takes six to eight weeks for them to get their finished video.
0:49:45 > 0:49:47And how long does it take you internally to get it done?
0:49:47 > 0:49:51It takes three days. It costs us about £400.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54So, would it be fair to say that your...
0:49:54 > 0:49:57gross margin is 50%, or thereabouts?
0:49:57 > 0:50:00Erm, it's around £500 per video.
0:50:03 > 0:50:07Sure-footed responses from the fledgling businesswomen.
0:50:07 > 0:50:12And something seems to have struck a chord with Theo Paphitis.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15Erm...
0:50:15 > 0:50:17Simple.
0:50:17 > 0:50:21Doesn't cost a lot of money to set up. Obviously a demand.
0:50:21 > 0:50:24I know it costs a small fortune to get a professional video done,
0:50:24 > 0:50:30having got a daughter that got married last year.
0:50:30 > 0:50:32Erm...what were you doing beforehand?
0:50:32 > 0:50:36- I was a producer-director.- So was I.
0:50:36 > 0:50:41We gave up our careers in television because we wanted to be self-employed and work for ourselves.
0:50:41 > 0:50:44And this is definitely a future for us in doing that.
0:50:44 > 0:50:46Plus, we really believe in the skill that we have,
0:50:46 > 0:50:50in the editing process, and our passion, as well, for what we do
0:50:50 > 0:50:54will mean that we will drive this business on.
0:50:54 > 0:50:57Talk me through the £60,000 - how are we going to spend it?
0:50:57 > 0:51:01At the moment we're spending £1,500 a month on, erm,
0:51:01 > 0:51:04magazine advertising, and also Google Adwords.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07And we're just barely even scratching the surface, really.
0:51:07 > 0:51:13So we'd like to use £30,000 to just increase our brand awareness, really.
0:51:13 > 0:51:15So I've still got £30,000 to spend...
0:51:15 > 0:51:18We'd like to invest in more camera equipment and, as we get bigger,
0:51:18 > 0:51:20we'll need more computer equipment.
0:51:22 > 0:51:25- DUNCAN:- Andrea, Becs...
0:51:25 > 0:51:30My concern is that you can only make an amazing video
0:51:30 > 0:51:32when you've edited the footage.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35And if the footage is terrible, you can't make an amazing video.
0:51:35 > 0:51:41And sometimes, you must be in a position where you give someone a camera,
0:51:41 > 0:51:43and it comes back with bad footage.
0:51:43 > 0:51:46And you can't edit it, you can't make a good video.
0:51:46 > 0:51:50We know that the footage that comes back will sometimes be a bit wobbly,
0:51:50 > 0:51:53and will have been operated when people might have had a bit to drink.
0:51:53 > 0:51:55But that's part of the fun.
0:51:55 > 0:51:58Do they have a contract, and does it say in that contract,
0:51:58 > 0:52:02"If you come back with some real rubbish,
0:52:02 > 0:52:05"then you'll get a rubbish video, and you still pay for it."
0:52:05 > 0:52:06Well, they pay upfront.
0:52:06 > 0:52:10And of the 80 that we've done so far, we haven't had one single one
0:52:10 > 0:52:13that has come back which we haven't been able to edit.
0:52:13 > 0:52:18It's giving somebody who loves you the responsibility of capturing the things they'd be doing anyway -
0:52:18 > 0:52:21enjoying themselves with their friends and family.
0:52:21 > 0:52:24So you would hope they would take that responsibility.
0:52:27 > 0:52:31The two friends are handling the Dragons with some aplomb.
0:52:31 > 0:52:34Hilary Devey looks impressed.
0:52:37 > 0:52:38- HILARY:- Erm...
0:52:38 > 0:52:40I think it's a fantastic idea.
0:52:40 > 0:52:44- Thank you. - Congratulations to you both.
0:52:44 > 0:52:47I think you will go...
0:52:48 > 0:52:51..very far, very fast.
0:52:51 > 0:52:56I could think of hundreds of ideas to get you there - hundreds.
0:52:59 > 0:53:01Where's your vision for this?
0:53:01 > 0:53:04In the very short time that we've been going,
0:53:04 > 0:53:08we have generated quite a big noise about what we do.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11We are very friendly with all of the leading bridal magazines,
0:53:11 > 0:53:13and we advertise in all of those monthly.
0:53:13 > 0:53:17There is a definite market for the pre-wedding events.
0:53:17 > 0:53:21We've taken three bookings for children's birthdays.
0:53:21 > 0:53:24And, also, we've been contacted by a large accountancy firm
0:53:24 > 0:53:27for using our camera for corporate away-days.
0:53:31 > 0:53:34Without listening to what the other Dragons have got to say,
0:53:34 > 0:53:36I'd like to make you an offer.
0:53:38 > 0:53:41I will offer you the full amount...
0:53:41 > 0:53:44for 26% of your business.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51OK. Thank you, Hilary.
0:53:55 > 0:53:57In an attempt to outmanoeuvre her rivals,
0:53:57 > 0:54:00Hilary Devey has put in a low and early bid
0:54:00 > 0:54:02for the south Londoners' company.
0:54:02 > 0:54:07Now, will the remaining Dragons choose to compete?
0:54:09 > 0:54:12I, er... I think YOU'RE very good.
0:54:12 > 0:54:16Erm, I think, I've listened to you answer,
0:54:16 > 0:54:19very eloquently, a lot of the questions that are thrown at you.
0:54:19 > 0:54:23And I think it'd be fun. I think it would be a lot of fun.
0:54:25 > 0:54:29But I'm not going to improve on that offer.
0:54:29 > 0:54:31So...
0:54:31 > 0:54:32I'm out.
0:54:35 > 0:54:37- THEO:- So, erm, if I was to compete with you,
0:54:37 > 0:54:40it doesn't take a huge amount of money...
0:54:40 > 0:54:44But there are 230,000 people getting married every single year.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47There's room for more than one of us.
0:54:47 > 0:54:49Listen, I do believe you're going to be successful.
0:54:49 > 0:54:54I'm going to wish you the best of luck, but this is not one for me,
0:54:54 > 0:54:56- so I'm out.- Thank you, Theo.
0:54:58 > 0:55:01- PETER:- I think you've done really well.
0:55:01 > 0:55:05You've got...a nice little... A nice little earner, let's say.
0:55:07 > 0:55:09But I'm not convinced it's a business.
0:55:11 > 0:55:15I can't see how this could make a serious amount of money,
0:55:15 > 0:55:17so that's the reason why I'm out.
0:55:17 > 0:55:19We look forward to proving you wrong, Peter.
0:55:23 > 0:55:28Words of encouragement but no rival bids - and there's just one Dragon left.
0:55:32 > 0:55:34I think it would be a lot of fun.
0:55:34 > 0:55:35But, er...
0:55:36 > 0:55:38Yeah, it's just...
0:55:40 > 0:55:44My problem is...the valuation.
0:55:44 > 0:55:48Today, you're valuing it with £60,000 at 20% -
0:55:48 > 0:55:50that's £300,000.
0:55:50 > 0:55:54And Hilary has just valued it at £240,000.
0:55:56 > 0:55:59So, I think that Hilary's made you an excellent offer.
0:56:00 > 0:56:02And I think you should accept it.
0:56:02 > 0:56:04But I can't beat it.
0:56:04 > 0:56:06I'm not going to try and match it.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08And so I'm out.
0:56:12 > 0:56:17Hilary, we did come in wanting to just really give away
0:56:17 > 0:56:2120% of our business - is there any chance that you would be able to...?
0:56:21 > 0:56:24No, because I think you need a lot of work.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28And like I say, I've got hundreds of ideas.
0:56:30 > 0:56:33So, no, I've got to keep myself interested,
0:56:33 > 0:56:36because I think you've got a long way to go.
0:56:36 > 0:56:38I think it WILL go a long way, definitely,
0:56:38 > 0:56:41and I think you'll both be very successful.
0:56:41 > 0:56:44And I also think you'll both be very rich at the end of it.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47And that's why I'm sticking at 26%.
0:56:54 > 0:56:57- (What do you want to do? - I think we should do it.)
0:56:57 > 0:56:58(Yep.)
0:57:02 > 0:57:06- Hilary, we'd like to accept your offer.- Good.- Well done.
0:57:08 > 0:57:09Andrea and Rebecca have done it.
0:57:09 > 0:57:11- Well done.- Brilliant. Thank you.
0:57:11 > 0:57:13They enchanted all the Dragons
0:57:13 > 0:57:18and now walk away with the enthusiasm, the experience and the cash of Hilary Devey.
0:57:18 > 0:57:21- DUNCAN:- Well done, Hilary. - I can see massive potential in that.
0:57:26 > 0:57:28Becs, Andrea, very well done.
0:57:28 > 0:57:30And you seem very happy with the outcome.
0:57:30 > 0:57:34- Can't believe it - it's amazing.- It's amazing!
0:57:34 > 0:57:37And she was quite a dark horse, Hilary, wasn't she?
0:57:37 > 0:57:39She just came out with that offer...
0:57:39 > 0:57:42I had a quick glance while we were playing the video and I watched her,
0:57:42 > 0:57:45and her face - she was beaming from ear to ear.
0:57:45 > 0:57:47- She looked really excited.- Yeah.
0:57:47 > 0:57:52- So, I was quite hopeful that she was going to like our idea. - That's why we were so taken aback.
0:57:52 > 0:57:55For Hilary to just come in and offer that straightaway,
0:57:55 > 0:57:59- it just kind of blew us away a bit. - Well, very good luck with it.
0:58:08 > 0:58:11Another day in the Den, and another investment.
0:58:11 > 0:58:13That's not the end of the story, though.
0:58:13 > 0:58:16It may be hard work to get the money here,
0:58:16 > 0:58:20but it's even harder work to make a successful business with it.
0:58:20 > 0:58:23To hear more from the entrepreneurs about their time in the Den,
0:58:23 > 0:58:25press the red button now.
0:58:25 > 0:58:27You can also visit our website...
0:58:30 > 0:58:32Goodbye.
0:58:33 > 0:58:35Next time on Dragons' Den...
0:58:35 > 0:58:38You may well sell a few, but commercially?
0:58:38 > 0:58:39No, love.
0:58:39 > 0:58:43Kid A would say, "No, I want a squibble," so I'm sitting here tomorrow,
0:58:43 > 0:58:46so you would still have a squabble about a squibble.
0:58:46 > 0:58:48It's not a business plan - it's a road to rack and ruin.
0:58:48 > 0:58:52My husband would think that was a really great thing.
0:58:52 > 0:58:57It's a real frustration. And the only way I can deal with that...
0:58:57 > 0:58:59is to make you an offer.
0:59:14 > 0:59:17Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:59:17 > 0:59:20E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk