0:00:02 > 0:00:04# Friday night, Saturday morning
0:00:04 > 0:00:07# Yesterday's gone, there's a weekend dawning
0:00:07 > 0:00:13# Friday night Saturday morning blast
0:00:15 > 0:00:19# Pack up your troubles, then
0:00:19 > 0:00:21# Monday's the day for them
0:00:21 > 0:00:25# Oh, it's time to relax again
0:00:25 > 0:00:30# Friday night Saturday morning blast. #
0:00:30 > 0:00:32APPLAUSE
0:00:37 > 0:00:41Good evening. Tonight, every-expense-spared guests include
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Paul Jones and the Blues Band,
0:00:43 > 0:00:47the author of the book most frequently stolen from public libraries,
0:00:47 > 0:00:49that's Norris McWhirter,
0:00:49 > 0:00:54and four gentlemen who'll be discussing a controversial film inspired by the New Testament.
0:00:54 > 0:00:59Only yesterday, in the Scotsman, a prominent news item headed "New Superstar Row"
0:00:59 > 0:01:01revealed that the film Jesus Christ Superstar
0:01:01 > 0:01:05has this week been banned from a cinema in the Western Isles as blasphemous.
0:01:05 > 0:01:08A curse placed on another remote Scottish cinema
0:01:08 > 0:01:11which dared to screen Superstar in 1976
0:01:11 > 0:01:14led to the recent closure of that particular house of entertainment.
0:01:14 > 0:01:18If Superstar still has this trouble nearly ten years after its creation,
0:01:18 > 0:01:21what hope does Monty Python's Life of Brian have today?
0:01:21 > 0:01:25Soon, the opinions of John Cleese, Michael Palin,
0:01:25 > 0:01:28Malcolm Muggeridge and Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31Here's a moderately controversial clip from the film.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39LAUGHTER
0:01:57 > 0:02:00- Oh...! - LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:02:23 > 0:02:26- Hello, Mother! - Don't you "Hello, Mother" me.
0:02:26 > 0:02:28- What are all those people doing? - Oh, well, I, er...
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Come on, what have you been up to, my lad?
0:02:30 > 0:02:33I think they must have popped by for something.
0:02:33 > 0:02:38"Popped by"?! Swarmed by, more like! There's a multitude out there!
0:02:38 > 0:02:42- They started following me yesterday. - Well, they can stop following you right now.
0:02:44 > 0:02:49Now stop following my son. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53ALL: The Messiah! The Messiah! Show us the Messiah!
0:02:53 > 0:02:56- The who?- The Messiah!
0:02:56 > 0:03:02There's no Messiah in here. There's no Messiah. Now go away!
0:03:02 > 0:03:03Brian! Brian!
0:03:03 > 0:03:06Right, my lad, what have you been up to?
0:03:06 > 0:03:09- Come on, out with it.- Well, they think I'm the Messiah, Mum.
0:03:09 > 0:03:12Show us the Messiah!
0:03:12 > 0:03:15Now you listen 'ere. He's not the Messiah,
0:03:15 > 0:03:19he's a very naughty boy. Now go away!
0:03:19 > 0:03:23- Who are you?- I'm his mother, that's who.
0:03:23 > 0:03:27Behold his mother! Behold his mother!
0:03:27 > 0:03:29Hail to thee,
0:03:29 > 0:03:30mother of Brian!
0:03:30 > 0:03:35Blessed art thou! Hosanna!
0:03:35 > 0:03:38All praise to thee, now and always!
0:03:38 > 0:03:41Now, don't think you can get around me like that.
0:03:41 > 0:03:45He's not coming out, and that's my final word.
0:03:45 > 0:03:46LAUGHTER
0:03:46 > 0:03:49That extract featured Graham Chapman as Brian
0:03:49 > 0:03:51and Terry Jones, who also directed the picture,
0:03:51 > 0:03:53as Mandy, mother of Brian.
0:03:53 > 0:03:54LAUGHTER
0:03:56 > 0:04:00With us tonight, another one third of Monty Python,
0:04:00 > 0:04:02John Cleese and Michael Palin.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:04:21 > 0:04:24Cracked.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26- BBC cutbacks.- Yep.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29Michael, why the name Brian?
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Well, I don't know, we've always used Brian in Python
0:04:32 > 0:04:35to portray a certain sort of character,
0:04:35 > 0:04:38a fairly anonymous and - I apologise to anyone called Brian -
0:04:38 > 0:04:42slightly sort of...a touch dim.
0:04:42 > 0:04:47No, not exactly dim. That's not fair. Slow to catch on.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50There's a fighting chance of at least one Brian watching tonight,
0:04:50 > 0:04:55- so be careful.- Well, I don't know. Have you seen the figures?
0:04:56 > 0:04:57Cheap, wasn't it?
0:04:57 > 0:05:03No, actually, John was in the sketch about a footballer being interviewed
0:05:03 > 0:05:04in one of the early Python shows,
0:05:04 > 0:05:06and it was all,
0:05:06 > 0:05:08"Brian, ball's in the back of the net, Brian."
0:05:10 > 0:05:11"I'm openin' a boutique, Brian."
0:05:13 > 0:05:16And it's one of the funny names, isn't it? It's like Trevor and Kevin.
0:05:16 > 0:05:18I mean, they're just funny.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23What inspired the film Life of Brian?
0:05:23 > 0:05:26I mean, how did that strange idea take root,
0:05:26 > 0:05:31and, indeed, in whose skull did it take root?
0:05:31 > 0:05:33Well, we're not exactly certain.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37It's always difficult to find the exact moment when it came up.
0:05:37 > 0:05:41But I know that when we were going around the world
0:05:41 > 0:05:44doing premieres for The Holy Grail
0:05:44 > 0:05:47and we had a lot of time to spare in airports and cafes,
0:05:47 > 0:05:51we got to thinking about a new film and what area we might go in.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54And we were still keen to do a historical film.
0:05:54 > 0:05:56It's more fun dressing up and all that.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58We'd done the bowler-hatted City gents on Python.
0:05:58 > 0:06:02And I think it was Eric who came up with this title out of the blue
0:06:02 > 0:06:04called Jesus Christ: Lust For Glory.
0:06:04 > 0:06:06LAUGHTER
0:06:06 > 0:06:09I must admit that when we started talking about it,
0:06:09 > 0:06:13we actually explored the idea of doing a comedy film about Jesus,
0:06:13 > 0:06:15with all the jokes about
0:06:15 > 0:06:19someone trying to book a table for 12 at the Last Supper.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22"Sorry, sir, Saturday night - I'll do you three fours."
0:06:23 > 0:06:27"Come in tomorrow." "No, it's got to be tonight." And all those jokes.
0:06:27 > 0:06:33But the more we read about Jesus and the background to his life,
0:06:33 > 0:06:37it was obvious that there was very little to ridicule in Jesus's life
0:06:37 > 0:06:40and therefore we were sort of onto a loser.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43The characters we like to portray in Python are failures, are dim,
0:06:43 > 0:06:46are idiotic, are incapable in one way or another.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49Jesus was a straight, direct man making very good sense.
0:06:49 > 0:06:53And so we decided that it would be just a rather shallow film
0:06:53 > 0:06:55just about Jesus, so we got Brian in.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58You must have known, though, even in those early days,
0:06:58 > 0:07:01you were heading for trouble and criticism and controversy,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04because you were well known and, to put it mildly,
0:07:04 > 0:07:08- the subject matter's quite well known.- Yeah.- Did that worry you?
0:07:08 > 0:07:11I feel that in Python we've always thrived on that.
0:07:11 > 0:07:13It's always been an uphill struggle.
0:07:13 > 0:07:18So what came first? I mean, was it the laughter idea or the message?
0:07:18 > 0:07:20I mean, which was the first of the two?
0:07:20 > 0:07:22It's the laughter. We go for the jokes first.
0:07:22 > 0:07:27The reason that it sounded like an interesting territory to go into, to explore...
0:07:27 > 0:07:30When you go in, you don't know what you'll write.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33We sit around for about three days discussing what to write
0:07:33 > 0:07:35then write something completely different.
0:07:35 > 0:07:37And the film actually starts
0:07:37 > 0:07:40when somebody comes in halfway through the second week
0:07:40 > 0:07:43and reads something out and we all laugh.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45That's the first point on the graph. You see?
0:07:45 > 0:07:48Then we wait another week and somebody else writes something funny,
0:07:48 > 0:07:50and we have two points on the graph.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54And when we've got six or seven, we write stuff to join it together.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57It's a pretty slow process, cos it's sort of democracy gone mad.
0:07:57 > 0:08:03It took a long time for Brian to really get off the ground.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06We wrote an awful lot which was then just thrown away
0:08:06 > 0:08:09because it was struggling too hard to be sort of controversial.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12Well, Mike, I don't know I agree with that,
0:08:12 > 0:08:16because I don't think that we were coming in with stuff about Christ.
0:08:16 > 0:08:18We started writing round the edges,
0:08:18 > 0:08:22the people who'd arrive five minutes after the miracle had been done...
0:08:22 > 0:08:24LAUGHTER
0:08:24 > 0:08:28..which is as bad as being 2,000 years late.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30It's almost as if you didn't see it,
0:08:30 > 0:08:32whether you're five minutes late or whatever.
0:08:32 > 0:08:36Actually, we did have the idea that he was the 13th disciple, didn't we?
0:08:36 > 0:08:39- A sort of slight hanger-on. - Yes, that's right.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43He was going to write a gospel, but he was always late.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47- It was also called Brian of Nazareth at one point, wasn't it?- Yeah. Yeah.
0:08:47 > 0:08:51You changed that title, yet that would have worked, wouldn't it?
0:08:51 > 0:08:54Well, I always thought that that title
0:08:54 > 0:08:58somehow asked for the comparison with Jesus of Nazareth,
0:08:58 > 0:09:03the Powell thing, too much. It looked as though we were going for the comparison.
0:09:03 > 0:09:04But you apparently used
0:09:04 > 0:09:07Lew Grade's sets from Jesus of Nazareth.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10Didn't you in fact use the same scenario?
0:09:10 > 0:09:12The ones he hadn't taken down!
0:09:12 > 0:09:14Yes, we used them for building our own sets in.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17There was temples there in Monastir, this place in Tunisia.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20It was luck really, because at one stage we were looking...
0:09:20 > 0:09:23I think there were five or six places we might have shot it -
0:09:23 > 0:09:25Italy, Spain, Jordan,
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Israel, Morocco, Tunisia,
0:09:28 > 0:09:31and I think we decided Tunisia eventually,
0:09:31 > 0:09:33partly because we thought
0:09:33 > 0:09:37there might be religious trouble in the Catholic countries
0:09:37 > 0:09:40and partly because they'd been making a lot of films
0:09:40 > 0:09:42in the last two or three years in Tunisia.
0:09:42 > 0:09:45When you said, "Get the rushes here in the morning,"
0:09:45 > 0:09:47you arrive and the rushes are there.
0:09:47 > 0:09:50There's practically an industry there of making films about Jesus,
0:09:50 > 0:09:54- cos Rossellini had made a film... - Who?- ..then Lew Grade was there.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58Rossellini, an Italian director, made a film about Jesus.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00- Don't worry.- I missed that one!
0:10:00 > 0:10:03He thought he was a footballer, didn't he?
0:10:03 > 0:10:05No, I thought it was a food!
0:10:05 > 0:10:08For FC Turin. No, Rossellini made this film.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11I thought it was rather good, actually!
0:10:11 > 0:10:14"Yeah, he was a bit slow. Second half he was very good!"
0:10:14 > 0:10:17LAUGHTER
0:10:17 > 0:10:20"Got the ball, and there it was in the back of the stand."
0:10:20 > 0:10:23If he's watching, I'm sorry, but I've never heard of the guy.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26- Well, he's made a film about Jesus. - Has it come out?- Yes, I think so.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29The extraordinary thing is, Tim - I don't know all the facts,
0:10:29 > 0:10:31because I was only told four days ago -
0:10:31 > 0:10:36but apparently there are now four "funny" films about the Bible
0:10:36 > 0:10:39- coming out in the next three months. - As a result of Brian?
0:10:39 > 0:10:42Well, I don't know. It may just be coincidence.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46Mind you, we've been talking about it for three years, so maybe the idea...
0:10:46 > 0:10:48How did the whole thing get together?
0:10:48 > 0:10:52You had this great idea in an airport lounge or wherever,
0:10:52 > 0:10:55and still you have a fairly long way to go from Terminal 2
0:10:55 > 0:10:58to...screens all over the world.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00It was a very big airport!
0:11:00 > 0:11:02- It took us ages. - It is that pragmatic thing...
0:11:02 > 0:11:07Because you had trouble with the cash and backers pulling out.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09Oh, terrible trouble, yes.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12In fact, if George Harrison hadn't known Eric Idle,
0:11:12 > 0:11:14the film wouldn't have been made.
0:11:14 > 0:11:21Because although the Americans, after the EMI thing fell through...
0:11:21 > 0:11:23LAUGHTER
0:11:23 > 0:11:25I didn't say anything!
0:11:25 > 0:11:27LAUGHTER
0:11:27 > 0:11:32- "Fell through"?!- Fell through. Fell through. Failed to happen,
0:11:32 > 0:11:34as it were.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36We then went to America,
0:11:36 > 0:11:39and they were all prepared to give us a little bit of money,
0:11:39 > 0:11:42but not as much as we needed to make the film.
0:11:42 > 0:11:46We needed, I think, 2.5 million to make it for the American territories,
0:11:46 > 0:11:48and they wouldn't give us more than 1.75.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52So come the middle of the year, we realised we weren't going to make it.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54Out of the blue, John Goldstone, the producer, said,
0:11:54 > 0:11:57"Well, I've got one more meeting, with George Harrison,"
0:11:57 > 0:11:59and George Harrison, which I think is really
0:11:59 > 0:12:03one of the great, almost magnificent acts of the century,
0:12:03 > 0:12:06said he was quite happy to put up £1 million
0:12:06 > 0:12:11for no other reason, apparently, than that he wanted to see the movie. LAUGHTER
0:12:11 > 0:12:13It's true, yeah.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16Weren't you all in some danger of splitting up,
0:12:16 > 0:12:20or at least some internal conflict? Or did the film bring you together?
0:12:20 > 0:12:24Yes. I mean, I think it did.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28After Grail, there was about a year spent in the wilderness, as it were,
0:12:28 > 0:12:32no-one sure what they wanted to do, and people trying their own things -
0:12:32 > 0:12:34Fawlty Towers or Ripping Yarns or whatever.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37Also, there was a stage when we hated each other.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39LAUGHTER
0:12:39 > 0:12:40- CAMP:- Well, I never hated you.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42LAUGHTER
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Whatever any of the others may say, I always liked you.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48What about your solo projects?
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Are there going to be any more Ripping Yarns, Fawlty Towers?
0:12:51 > 0:12:53There'll be no more Fawlty Towers.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55LAUGHTER
0:12:55 > 0:12:57APPLAUSE
0:13:00 > 0:13:03He sent me a wonderful telegram last week,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06when I had my 40th birthday, and it read,
0:13:06 > 0:13:11"We loved the first 40. Are you going to do any more?"
0:13:11 > 0:13:12LAUGHTER
0:13:12 > 0:13:14- They got it right.- Well, are you?
0:13:14 > 0:13:17- Is there going to be a...? - I don't think so, no.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21I feel we've done that, just as I felt about Python and the telly,
0:13:21 > 0:13:25that you reach a point and it's the law of diminishing returns. You COULD go on...
0:13:25 > 0:13:29And does that mean there won't be any more Pythons on the telly?
0:13:29 > 0:13:32- Highly unlikely at the moment. - But not totally ruled out.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35Well, not totally. I don't think anything is absolutely,
0:13:35 > 0:13:37definitely ruled out.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39What I hate is the sausage machine,
0:13:39 > 0:13:42and you get into it the moment you sign on the dotted line -
0:13:42 > 0:13:4713 shows, that's eight months in the diary filming, editing, rehearsing.
0:13:47 > 0:13:52It's much nicer to take one two-hour or hour-and-a-half thing like a film
0:13:52 > 0:13:53and spend a lot of time,
0:13:53 > 0:13:56and then you can savour it and explore and talk -
0:13:56 > 0:13:59better than having to get everything written every day.
0:13:59 > 0:14:02See, John gets very depressed by work. He doesn't like work.
0:14:02 > 0:14:03I mean, what I feel
0:14:03 > 0:14:07about the Python shows is I don't know where we would start off.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10I think we almost did everything in those three series,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13and I just don't know how we'd begin.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16We're practically doing it tonight. We were saying, it's terribly funny -
0:14:16 > 0:14:18it struck us that here we are,
0:14:18 > 0:14:21and a bishop and Malcolm Muggeridge are going to come on.
0:14:21 > 0:14:22LAUGHTER
0:14:22 > 0:14:26- "In the studio tonight..." - And it's not a sketch!
0:14:26 > 0:14:28LAUGHTER
0:14:28 > 0:14:31APPLAUSE
0:14:33 > 0:14:36Are you implying that possibly there might be
0:14:36 > 0:14:41a third - or fourth, rather, fourth - Python movie, a full-length film?
0:14:41 > 0:14:44- This is certainly on the cards?- Yes...
0:14:44 > 0:14:47- In fact, we're meeting. November 19th?- Monday week.
0:14:47 > 0:14:49Your place.
0:14:49 > 0:14:51To discuss this very thing.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53I think it's very likely that we'll do another film.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55But again, we want to see if there's
0:14:55 > 0:15:00an area nobody's gone into, because the one thing about this film...
0:15:00 > 0:15:01I mean, I really like it,
0:15:01 > 0:15:04and there's a lot of stuff we've done I don't like that much.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08I really like this and there are moments when I watch it and I think,
0:15:08 > 0:15:13"I haven't seen anything like this before on the screen."
0:15:13 > 0:15:15- LAUGHTER - Is there anything that
0:15:15 > 0:15:17you think could offend YOU on screen?
0:15:18 > 0:15:21LAUGHTER I...
0:15:22 > 0:15:25I have one tiny quibble, and I think that...
0:15:25 > 0:15:30that Terry Jones and Graham Chapman would no doubt disagree with me,
0:15:30 > 0:15:34that I think that the crucifixion thing at the end is not about pain -
0:15:34 > 0:15:40- it's about death and they are very separate.- So what's your beef?
0:15:40 > 0:15:43My beef is that there are one or two close-ups
0:15:43 > 0:15:45of one or two people registering pain.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48And I think that that confuses what the last thing's about
0:15:48 > 0:15:52because, I mean, one's not really making fun of the fact
0:15:52 > 0:15:56that someone has been flayed till his flesh hung down and then nailed up.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58The point of that last bit is it's about death.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01You know, it's about attitudes to death.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04And it's quite possible to be relatively cheery about death -
0:16:04 > 0:16:06quite possible. Not saying that it's easy.
0:16:06 > 0:16:09Oh, yes. Well, for the moment, gentlemen, thank you very much.
0:16:09 > 0:16:12I think we ought to see another clip from the movie.
0:16:12 > 0:16:13No, would you please...
0:16:13 > 0:16:15- LAUGHTER - ..stay where you are?
0:16:15 > 0:16:18We're going to see a second clip from the film,
0:16:18 > 0:16:20and, after that, we'll be joined by two gentlemen
0:16:20 > 0:16:22who don't normally review movies
0:16:22 > 0:16:24but who, this evening, went to see it on our behalf.
0:16:37 > 0:16:41Hey, is there another way down?
0:16:42 > 0:16:44Is there another path down to the river?
0:16:46 > 0:16:48Please, please, help me! I've got to...
0:16:48 > 0:16:50CLAMOURING
0:16:51 > 0:16:53Oh, my foot!
0:16:53 > 0:16:54Oh, bastard!
0:16:54 > 0:16:57He is here! The shoe!
0:16:57 > 0:17:00THEY SHOUT OVER EACH OTHER
0:17:00 > 0:17:05- Speak! Speak to us, master, speak to us!- Go away!
0:17:05 > 0:17:10- ALL:- A blessing! A blessing! - How shall we go away, master?
0:17:10 > 0:17:15- Just go away and leave me alone! - Give us a sign!
0:17:15 > 0:17:18He HAS given us a sign! He has brought us to this place!
0:17:18 > 0:17:21I didn't bring you here, you just followed me!
0:17:21 > 0:17:24Oh, it's still a good sign by any standard.
0:17:24 > 0:17:27Master, your people have walked many miles to be with you,
0:17:27 > 0:17:29they are weary and have not eaten!
0:17:29 > 0:17:31It's not my fault they haven't eaten!
0:17:31 > 0:17:33There is no food in this high mountain!
0:17:33 > 0:17:35Well, what about the juniper bushes over there?
0:17:37 > 0:17:41- ALL:- Ah! A miracle! A miracle!
0:17:41 > 0:17:44He has made the bush fruitful by his words!
0:17:44 > 0:17:46They've brought forth juniper berries.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48Of course they've brought forth juniper berries,
0:17:48 > 0:17:50they're juniper bushes! What do you expect?!
0:17:50 > 0:17:55- Show us another miracle! - Do not tempt him, shallow ones!
0:17:55 > 0:17:57Is not the miracle of the juniper bushes enough?
0:17:58 > 0:18:02- I say, those are my juniper bushes! - They are a gift from God!
0:18:02 > 0:18:04They're all I've bloody got to eat!
0:18:09 > 0:18:14- Lord! I am affected by a bald patch. - I am healed!
0:18:14 > 0:18:16The master has healed me!
0:18:16 > 0:18:20- I didn't touch him! - I was blind and now I can see!
0:18:20 > 0:18:21Aaargh!
0:18:23 > 0:18:26An... And our guests...
0:18:26 > 0:18:28APPLAUSE
0:18:34 > 0:18:36And our guests are Malcolm Muggeridge
0:18:36 > 0:18:38and Mervyn Stockwood, the Bishop of Southwark.
0:18:38 > 0:18:42I'd like to ask you, Bishop, first, what was your view of the film?
0:18:42 > 0:18:47First of all, I was very glad to think that you simply
0:18:47 > 0:18:51can't get rid of Jesus in Europe today.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54Ceausescu of Romania, who I think thought like most communists
0:18:54 > 0:18:58that they're going to get rid of religion very quickly,
0:18:58 > 0:18:59found that as he said,
0:18:59 > 0:19:04it's going to hang around with us for quite a long time.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08And, certainly, when you think about the greatest attractions
0:19:08 > 0:19:12on the stage, whether it's films and, I mean, acting,
0:19:12 > 0:19:17ever since Jesus Christ Superstar, that's what's drawn the crowds.
0:19:17 > 0:19:19I mean, Jesus is a most disturbing influence.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22You simply can't get away from him.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26You may worship him, respect him, commit your life to him
0:19:26 > 0:19:30or just ridicule him and lampoon him, but you simply can't get rid of him
0:19:30 > 0:19:34and this is what I think is a very, very interesting fact.
0:19:34 > 0:19:38Even in China, in the changeover now, they tried to...
0:19:38 > 0:19:43they thought Chairman Mao's thoughts had replaced the thoughts of Jesus,
0:19:43 > 0:19:48but poor old Mao and the gang of four now really are on the dog heap
0:19:48 > 0:19:52and Jesus is being allowed back. So that, first of all,
0:19:52 > 0:19:56is something which I find extremely interesting. Now, the...
0:19:56 > 0:19:59The...the second thing I...
0:19:59 > 0:20:02Well, here's a question I would ask, er...
0:20:02 > 0:20:08what...are you really trying to say in this film?
0:20:08 > 0:20:11I believe you were on this a wee bit earlier, but unfortunately,
0:20:11 > 0:20:14we only got the picture outside and not the voice, which was...
0:20:14 > 0:20:19LAUGHTER ..something that husbands might want of their wives, but...
0:20:19 > 0:20:20LAUGHTER
0:20:20 > 0:20:23So we didn't quite hear your defence of it, but what I...
0:20:23 > 0:20:27What are you really trying to say? I wasn't in the least bit horrified.
0:20:27 > 0:20:32People said, "Bishop, when you go there, you will be absolutely horrified." I wasn't at all.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35After all, I wasn't vicar of the University Church for nothing.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38I mean, I'm familiar with undergraduate humour.
0:20:38 > 0:20:39LAUGHTER
0:20:39 > 0:20:41APPLAUSE
0:20:45 > 0:20:48And I'm also a governor of a mentally deficient school.
0:20:48 > 0:20:50LAUGHTER
0:20:50 > 0:20:53And once I was a prep school master and I felt frightfully at home,
0:20:53 > 0:20:57as though I was just back on old familiar ground this evening.
0:20:57 > 0:21:01But I really wondered, I mean, what you were trying to say.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04I do hope you don't think I'm being unkind,
0:21:04 > 0:21:07because I know some of you and I'm very fond of you
0:21:07 > 0:21:11and have respect for you, but I say this,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14quite frankly, I simply don't think it was worthy of you.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17It was the sort of thing, as I say, that, at Cambridge,
0:21:17 > 0:21:20the Footlights did on a damp Tuesday afternoon.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23Or the lower fourth when I was a schoolmaster.
0:21:23 > 0:21:24LAUGHTER
0:21:24 > 0:21:27- Did you in fact...?- I just don't know what you were saying.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30The third thing, unless I get rather more serious,
0:21:30 > 0:21:32I mean...
0:21:32 > 0:21:36why lampoon death? I think this is the thing that
0:21:36 > 0:21:41really, er, you know, sort of worried me.
0:21:41 > 0:21:46I don't think well to make a farce about Auschwitz.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Or of death. I mean, whatever we think about Jesus,
0:21:50 > 0:21:52we may think he was the son of God,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54we may think he was a mistaken fanatic.
0:21:54 > 0:22:00But it was a pretty shattering thing what happened, the Crucifixion.
0:22:00 > 0:22:05And, do you know, as I, as I looked at that
0:22:05 > 0:22:07and I thought of now,
0:22:07 > 0:22:11the way people react to the cross and, after all,
0:22:11 > 0:22:16I'm not ashamed to wear the cross here, which is the sign of a bishop.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19Er, when I look at that figure...
0:22:19 > 0:22:22I mean, I know you're going to say Brian isn't Jesus,
0:22:22 > 0:22:25but that's just rubbish. It was the, er...
0:22:25 > 0:22:27The whole thing is quite clearly...
0:22:27 > 0:22:30If no Jesus had lived, that film wouldn't have been produced.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33- But did you feel the film actually ridiculed Jesus?- Yes, I did.
0:22:33 > 0:22:35Even though it wasn't about him?
0:22:35 > 0:22:38Well, I'm afraid I can't take that it wasn't about him.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41I mean, I put that to you as a matter of honesty.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43If Jesus of Nazareth had never existed,
0:22:43 > 0:22:46there would never been a Jesus and this film of Brian
0:22:46 > 0:22:48would never have been produced, I'm sure that is so.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51- Could I bring Mal...?- If I... LAUGHTER
0:22:51 > 0:22:56If I might just say, and then do come and cross-examine me then,
0:22:56 > 0:23:00but my mind is still working on that last scene, sort of the reaction.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02I mean, there, it seemed,
0:23:02 > 0:23:05sort of a tremendous joke and people were laughing.
0:23:05 > 0:23:09And then you think of the reaction of a person like Mother Teresa
0:23:09 > 0:23:14to that scene, what it meant for her.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16Now, she's a saint, I am not.
0:23:16 > 0:23:20But every day of the week, I either say mass or I'm present at mass,
0:23:20 > 0:23:25as I was this morning, in the early hours, and I broke the bread,
0:23:25 > 0:23:30"This is my body," I took the cup, "This is my blood,"
0:23:30 > 0:23:36and I didn't roar around with laughter at the altar in my chapel this morning.
0:23:36 > 0:23:39I just fell down, genuflected and worshipped,
0:23:39 > 0:23:42and said, "My Lord and my God."
0:23:42 > 0:23:44Now, er...
0:23:44 > 0:23:47I don't think, really... You come and get at me now.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50- Well, I...- I'm not criticising any of you personally.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53I hasten to say I had nothing to do with the film whatsoever.
0:23:53 > 0:23:54LAUGHTER
0:23:54 > 0:23:59But before I ask John and Michael to perhaps answer those points, could I bring in Malcolm
0:23:59 > 0:24:04- and ask your review, if review is the right word?- Certainly, yes.
0:24:04 > 0:24:09Remember that I was engaged for four years in the appalling task
0:24:09 > 0:24:13of trying to make English people laugh as editor of Punch!
0:24:13 > 0:24:15It's an almost impossible thing to do.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18- LAUGHTER - But I couldn't help feeling
0:24:18 > 0:24:21enormous envy of the ease with which
0:24:21 > 0:24:25this particular film aroused laughter,
0:24:25 > 0:24:27you simply had to use a four-letter word
0:24:27 > 0:24:31or display a man's private parts in the window
0:24:31 > 0:24:34and the whole place fell on the ground with laughter.
0:24:34 > 0:24:35LAUGHTER
0:24:35 > 0:24:42So that I, you know, professionally felt rather put out by that.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45Also, of course, I agree entirely with the bishop
0:24:45 > 0:24:47that it is quite humbug to say
0:24:47 > 0:24:51that this is not, um, a ridiculing
0:24:51 > 0:24:56of the founder of the Christian religion and of the Incarnation,
0:24:56 > 0:25:00in an extremely cheap and tenth-rate way.
0:25:00 > 0:25:04Remember that that story of the Incarnation
0:25:04 > 0:25:08was what our whole civilisation began with.
0:25:08 > 0:25:12Remember that it has inspired every great artist,
0:25:12 > 0:25:16every great writer, every great composer, every great builder,
0:25:16 > 0:25:21every great architect, that is to celebrate that marvellous thing.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25Germany, the Inquisition and so forth, it sort of...
0:25:25 > 0:25:29- Yes, the Inquisition... - LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:25:29 > 0:25:32But, er, nothing can alter the fact that,
0:25:32 > 0:25:37if you were to make a list of all the greatest works of art,
0:25:37 > 0:25:41in all fields, and all the greatest contributors to those works of art,
0:25:41 > 0:25:45you would find that this scene of the Incarnation,
0:25:45 > 0:25:49this story of the Incarnation, has played the largest part.
0:25:49 > 0:25:54Now, in our 20th century, the...
0:25:54 > 0:25:58this film produces a sort of graffiti version of it.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01And I don't think, in the eyes of posterity,
0:26:01 > 0:26:05it will have a very distinguished place.
0:26:05 > 0:26:10The bishop mentioned Mother Teresa and I was thinking of her too,
0:26:10 > 0:26:12because, to her, you see, and it's something that
0:26:12 > 0:26:16the makers of this programme maybe didn't even think of,
0:26:16 > 0:26:20but the person of Jesus Christ,
0:26:20 > 0:26:24not as a historical figure,
0:26:24 > 0:26:28not as someone in the past, but someone living in the world now,
0:26:28 > 0:26:30has been the essence of her existence.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34I once asked her what was the difference
0:26:34 > 0:26:37between what she did and what social workers do.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41And she said, "Well, the point is that social workers
0:26:41 > 0:26:45"are very estimable people, but they do something.
0:26:45 > 0:26:48"They serve their fellows for an idea,
0:26:48 > 0:26:54"I served my fellows for a person. And if that person wasn't there,
0:26:54 > 0:27:01"or if that person was in some way discredited, then my work is over."
0:27:01 > 0:27:03And there are many people in the world,
0:27:03 > 0:27:08despite the fact that the media would suggest the contrary,
0:27:08 > 0:27:13to whom still this living presence of Jesus Christ in the world
0:27:13 > 0:27:16is the most essential part of their existence.
0:27:16 > 0:27:22And you produce it in a film as a derisory and absurd figure
0:27:22 > 0:27:26and, of course, to someone who has that feeling, as Mother Teresa has,
0:27:26 > 0:27:28or someone like Catherine Bramwell-Booth has,
0:27:28 > 0:27:33they are deeply hurt and insulted. That doesn't in itself matter.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37I'd like to put another point to you that occurred to me whilst watching it.
0:27:37 > 0:27:41Malcolm, sorry to interrupt, but is it possible for John to answer one or two of those points...
0:27:41 > 0:27:46- Certainly.- ..otherwise we'll have nine points unanswered?- Yes, it's building up the list of it.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49Yes... But seriously, the problem we have got
0:27:49 > 0:27:52is that you think that we're ridiculing Jesus
0:27:52 > 0:27:56and we say, um, sort of sincerely and truthfully,
0:27:56 > 0:27:59that that is certainly not what we intended to do
0:27:59 > 0:28:04and I believe that we're not, and I can best answer that, I think, by
0:28:04 > 0:28:09answering the question, which is that, um,
0:28:09 > 0:28:12"What were we trying to do?" And I think it comes out,
0:28:12 > 0:28:15spelled out perhaps rather too plainly,
0:28:15 > 0:28:18rather too banally at one point, when he says,
0:28:18 > 0:28:22"Make up your own mind, don't let other people tell you,"
0:28:22 > 0:28:25and we would absolutely deny, at least I would,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28that there was any attempt to say, "You should not believe in Christ."
0:28:28 > 0:28:31What we're saying is, take a critical view.
0:28:31 > 0:28:34Find out about it, don't just believe because somebody tells you to.
0:28:34 > 0:28:39- Someone in a pulpit says something, question it, work it out... - You're seriously suggesting that,
0:28:39 > 0:28:43- if someone saw that film, say a young kid...- Mm-hm.
0:28:43 > 0:28:47- ..who knew nothing about the Gospels or about history...- Mm-hm.
0:28:47 > 0:28:50..that the figure of Christ that would emerge from it,
0:28:50 > 0:28:53this story of the Incarnation,
0:28:53 > 0:28:57would be a noble one, um, would be...?
0:28:57 > 0:29:02- He would have to sort it out for himself.- You feel...? - He would have to work out...
0:29:02 > 0:29:06I mean, does one accept every word in the Bible? The Sermon on the Mount?
0:29:06 > 0:29:09Did they get it all right when Mark wrote it down 30 years later?
0:29:09 > 0:29:11I mean, was...? LAUGHTER
0:29:11 > 0:29:16But is the film likely to be seen by anybody who doesn't know an awful lot about Jesus Christ?
0:29:16 > 0:29:21Most certain it is today. If you have it for children of 14 today,
0:29:21 > 0:29:24you will find that the many, many children of 14 today,
0:29:24 > 0:29:27thanks to the secular nature of the education they're receiving,
0:29:27 > 0:29:31know nothing about it at all and they would see this figure...
0:29:31 > 0:29:35- I think...- ..in the light in which he appears in this film, you see.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38It's no good cheating yourselves, you can't have it both ways.
0:29:38 > 0:29:45You produce this particular film, which arouses bursts of laughter,
0:29:45 > 0:29:48as I said earlier, rather easily procured,
0:29:48 > 0:29:53but don't imagine that someone seeing that is going to go away
0:29:53 > 0:29:56with a concept of the founder of the Christian religion,
0:29:56 > 0:30:03and all that that meant to mankind, in any way corresponding
0:30:03 > 0:30:06to what history or the Gospels or anything else has presented.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08It's not supposed to be about him, so people shouldn't
0:30:08 > 0:30:13- see it to learn about him. - It's no good saying that... - I'm not being dishonest!
0:30:13 > 0:30:16- You're being utterly dishonest. - Can I just say? Yeah, I mean,
0:30:16 > 0:30:21I don't know where this will get us, but I feel my approach to the film,
0:30:21 > 0:30:25I was confused, I feel I'm still asking questions, seeking solutions,
0:30:25 > 0:30:29I am very confused and perturbed by a religion,
0:30:29 > 0:30:31an established religion in this country,
0:30:31 > 0:30:34where people can go into church on a Sunday morning,
0:30:34 > 0:30:36and the same people can sing hymns and say prayers,
0:30:36 > 0:30:40and, at the same time, these people can stand by
0:30:40 > 0:30:44while their money is spent making bombs, making guns,
0:30:44 > 0:30:47building up appalling weapons of destruction,
0:30:47 > 0:30:50can sit by, sing hymns, say their prayers,
0:30:50 > 0:30:54and agree with a policy in which hospitals have to go without money.
0:30:54 > 0:30:58I'd like to know where you get your evidence. You've just given chapter and verse.
0:30:58 > 0:31:03It so happens, immediately before coming here, I was asked by a crowd of church people
0:31:03 > 0:31:07if I would stand up for the... sorry, for the...for the health...
0:31:07 > 0:31:12of St Olive's Hospital, which the Government is trying to close.
0:31:12 > 0:31:18The Church is extremely active in these, er, in these fields
0:31:18 > 0:31:23and I would urge you not to make these careless generalisations which are not dependent on evidence.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27- Now...- I make them in all humility, I'm seeking answers and solutions,
0:31:27 > 0:31:31I'm not saying this is absolutely the way it is, but I have observed.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35Well, what you were saying if I may say so, was sheer rubbish!
0:31:35 > 0:31:36SOME GASPS FROM THE AUDIENCE
0:31:36 > 0:31:40You made a ridiculous generalisation, which is unworthy of an educated man.
0:31:40 > 0:31:44Now, having said this, back to what you say,
0:31:44 > 0:31:49somebody aged 14 coming and seeing this thing of Jesus,
0:31:49 > 0:31:53what you are seeing is not one of the greatest teachers in the world,
0:31:53 > 0:31:57I mean, granted, lots of people, the majority of people wouldn't
0:31:57 > 0:32:01accept him as the son of God, as I do, but surely most of us
0:32:01 > 0:32:04would see him as one of the greatest teachers of the world.
0:32:04 > 0:32:09Now, you wouldn't guy Socrates or make him appear as a clown.
0:32:09 > 0:32:13- What I think this film...- Maybe there are funny things about him.- What?
0:32:13 > 0:32:17Maybe there are funny things about Socrates, why not make jokes?
0:32:17 > 0:32:19Well, the aspects... LAUGHTER
0:32:19 > 0:32:21- Not Socrates.- No, no. - APPLAUSE
0:32:21 > 0:32:26- That's not my point, I don't know enough about Socrates... - Socrates also was murdered.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29He was made to drink poison.
0:32:29 > 0:32:34You wouldn't guy him at that point or make him appear as a clown.
0:32:34 > 0:32:39What I say, and I'm afraid you won't alter my conviction, John, over this,
0:32:39 > 0:32:42is that, what is to a Christian the most sacred moment
0:32:42 > 0:32:46of the whole Jesus experience, namely his death,
0:32:46 > 0:32:48that is the most sacred moment,
0:32:48 > 0:32:51that he was guyed and made to look as a clown.
0:32:51 > 0:32:55May I make another point here, which is rather interesting?
0:32:55 > 0:32:58- That if you had made that film about... - LAUGHTER
0:32:58 > 0:33:01..if you made that film about Muhammad, you see,
0:33:01 > 0:33:05there would've been an absolute hullabaloo in this country,
0:33:05 > 0:33:10because all the sort of, um, you know, the racial,
0:33:10 > 0:33:13anti-racialist people would've risen up in their might,
0:33:13 > 0:33:18the same people who would approve of this, and would've said this is quite disgraceful
0:33:18 > 0:33:20and behind people's minds would be the thought
0:33:20 > 0:33:24maybe they might lose a bit of oil, you know, by doing it. But the difference...
0:33:24 > 0:33:28You're right! 400 years ago, we would have been burnt for this film.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31Now, I'm suggesting that we've made an advance.
0:33:31 > 0:33:33- LAUGHTER. - And I'm suggesting...
0:33:33 > 0:33:34APPLAUSE
0:33:34 > 0:33:40And I'm suggesting that, compared with other presentations
0:33:40 > 0:33:44of this great event, the Incarnation,
0:33:44 > 0:33:49you have not made an advance and that anybody in the future
0:33:49 > 0:33:51who might dredge up this miserable little film,
0:33:51 > 0:33:55and it's quite possible they might as a piece of social history,
0:33:55 > 0:34:00they would certainly not wish to relate it to the...
0:34:00 > 0:34:04say, Chartres Cathedral, which is built...
0:34:04 > 0:34:07- SOME LAUGHTER - ..to the glory of Christ.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10Not a funny building. LAUGHTER
0:34:10 > 0:34:13But they might want to compare it with Fawlty Towers!
0:34:13 > 0:34:15Yes, not even intended to be a funny building.
0:34:15 > 0:34:17Well, it has the gargoyles on it, you know.
0:34:17 > 0:34:21- Michael?- I think that, and I've seen this in the reviews of the film,
0:34:21 > 0:34:24they concentrate always on the religious angle.
0:34:24 > 0:34:28Even before they've seen it, they've decided it's a film about religion.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31I don't think it is entirely. I think what we've chosen to do is
0:34:31 > 0:34:35what we've always done in Python, for three series and three films -
0:34:35 > 0:34:39taken a certain group of people, generally sort of England in the present day,
0:34:39 > 0:34:43and put them in a historical context and that's what we did with this.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46It isn't entirely about religion, it's about the people who live in,
0:34:46 > 0:34:50anyone who lives and makes up our society today.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52It's also about closed systems of thought,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55whether political, theological, religious or whatever.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58Systems by which whatever evidence is given to the person,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01he merely adapts it, fits it into his ideology.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05You show the same event to a Marxist and a Catholic, for example,
0:35:05 > 0:35:07they both have explanations of it.
0:35:07 > 0:35:12When it's to be pompous Poppers on about falsifiability of theories.
0:35:12 > 0:35:17I mean, once you've actually got an idea that is whirring round so fast
0:35:17 > 0:35:21that no other light or contrary evidence can come in, I think it's very dangerous.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24Not dangerous to someone like Malcolm, because he is very nice,
0:35:24 > 0:35:28but he is the sort of guy that this film is actually having a go at,
0:35:28 > 0:35:33because I don't think any evidence will come now to make him rethink,
0:35:33 > 0:35:36"Am I right? Am I making a mistake?"
0:35:36 > 0:35:40Well, um, you can leave that out.
0:35:40 > 0:35:44I think I can say with utter sincerity
0:35:44 > 0:35:47that there is nothing in this particular film
0:35:47 > 0:35:52that would lead me to want to change conclusions
0:35:52 > 0:35:55that I've reached after living for 76 years in this world.
0:35:55 > 0:35:59Is there anything? That's the point I'm making.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01Well, in this film, there is nothing that could possibly,
0:36:01 > 0:36:05- because the film itself bore so little to...- The point I was making
0:36:05 > 0:36:08was not the film, forget the film, you'd said it's rubbish.
0:36:08 > 0:36:12- Will anything that can happen to you change your mind?- Oh, certainly!
0:36:12 > 0:36:16But of course, every single person who is alive, and spiritually alive,
0:36:16 > 0:36:22is constantly reviewing his faith. I do not believe for a moment
0:36:22 > 0:36:25that there is a definitive faith and you say, "There it is."
0:36:25 > 0:36:29But there's nothing in this little squalid number that could
0:36:29 > 0:36:32- possibly affect anybody... - SOME GASPS
0:36:32 > 0:36:35- ..and, in that sense, I give you this point.- Might it not...?
0:36:35 > 0:36:40There's nothing in this film that could possibly destroy anybody's genuine faith,
0:36:40 > 0:36:42that I grant you absolutely not.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45Because it's much too tenth rate for that.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48- LAUGHTER - But the, the...
0:36:48 > 0:36:50- SOME APPLAUSE - But, um...
0:36:50 > 0:36:55But what I still contend is that someone who is young,
0:36:55 > 0:37:0114 years old, seeing that without any particular background
0:37:01 > 0:37:05might really imagine that that buffoonery
0:37:05 > 0:37:08- is an expression...- Yes. - ..of this great episode.
0:37:08 > 0:37:12Well, you see, I was also... You talked about the presentation of Christianity.
0:37:12 > 0:37:15I went to an English preparatory school,
0:37:15 > 0:37:19an English public school, Clifton College, the sports academy.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21- I sympathise with you. - LAUGHTER
0:37:21 > 0:37:23I was given eight or ten years,
0:37:23 > 0:37:29ten years of a form of Christianity which I grew to despise and dislike.
0:37:29 > 0:37:32Largely, it insulted my intelligence.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35The sermons that were given at the age of 11 and 12,
0:37:35 > 0:37:38I felt insulted my intelligence.
0:37:38 > 0:37:42When I got into writing this film, we all had exactly the same reaction.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45We started to discover a lot of stuff about Christianity
0:37:45 > 0:37:48and I started to get angry, because I started to think,
0:37:48 > 0:37:53"Why was I given this rubbish, this tenth-rate series of platitudes,
0:37:53 > 0:37:57"when there were interesting things to have discussed?
0:37:57 > 0:37:58"There were factual things."
0:37:58 > 0:38:03- You feel...?- Nobody told me they don't know what language the Gospels were written in,
0:38:03 > 0:38:07they don't know who wrote them and they're not sure what cities they were written in!
0:38:07 > 0:38:10Then you must have read very superficially at your school.
0:38:10 > 0:38:15It's bad luck of you, but I used to go to Clifton College to preach very often when you were there.
0:38:15 > 0:38:17LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:38:21 > 0:38:26I know, I know the headmaster, I know the staff.
0:38:26 > 0:38:31All I can say is, you must've been as idle a boy as...
0:38:31 > 0:38:33LAUGHTER
0:38:33 > 0:38:36..as splendid an actor as you are, because...
0:38:36 > 0:38:41- I wasn't, I was always open. - ..because, you really, to take this... Seriously!
0:38:41 > 0:38:46- I mean, you had some absolutely first-class teachers. - Those services were a joke!
0:38:46 > 0:38:48They were a joke!
0:38:48 > 0:38:52- Only cos you made them so.- No! I was...- How do you know?
0:38:52 > 0:38:57- I know people from your own period.. - I remember the sermons!- ..who are now priests in my own diocese.
0:38:57 > 0:39:01- I remember the sermons, I remember... - Tell me what I preached on?
0:39:01 > 0:39:02No idea! LAUGHTER
0:39:02 > 0:39:05I only remember the bad ones.
0:39:05 > 0:39:07I remember a gentleman coming and telling us
0:39:07 > 0:39:10how very difficult it had proved to get the Bible into Tibet.
0:39:10 > 0:39:14They'd had seven occasions. The first time, there were landslides.
0:39:14 > 0:39:17The second time, there were rains and the pages got stuck together.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19LAUGHTER The third time... This is true!
0:39:19 > 0:39:24The third time, the mules fell off the mountain. The fourth time, there were thunderbolts.
0:39:24 > 0:39:28And the seventh time, he said, "God helped us and we got the Bibles into Tibet."
0:39:28 > 0:39:32The obvious conclusion was that he was trying like hell to stop them!
0:39:32 > 0:39:35LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:39:38 > 0:39:41John, I'm sorry, but you really are lampooning this,
0:39:41 > 0:39:44because with O-levels and A-levels going on the whole time,
0:39:44 > 0:39:47people have taken the Scriptures, they have had to study Greek,
0:39:47 > 0:39:51perhaps Hebrew and have had to make a serious study of the Scriptures.
0:39:51 > 0:39:53You chose not to do that.
0:39:53 > 0:39:58- We made a superficial study... - I'm sure you'd better things to do! - We only had four years to write it!
0:39:58 > 0:40:02We didn't want to get to specialist, because if we got too...
0:40:02 > 0:40:06- I'm sorry. I don't think there's going to be much...- Can I just ask?
0:40:06 > 0:40:09I think, in theory, as a moderator, I'm supposed to be neutral.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11Church of Scotland or Church of England?
0:40:11 > 0:40:14AUDIENCE LAUGHS
0:40:14 > 0:40:15- Moderator in the church. - I'm in the middle.
0:40:15 > 0:40:20I mean, I felt when I saw the film, and I saw it in New York
0:40:20 > 0:40:24with a very appreciative audience, did you not feel that the people
0:40:24 > 0:40:28being lampooned were in fact the followers rather than Jesus himself?
0:40:28 > 0:40:31- I felt that very strongly. - No, no, no.
0:40:31 > 0:40:35I don't think so. It was... I really felt...
0:40:35 > 0:40:39I mean, at the crucifixion above all else, which I felt sad about.
0:40:39 > 0:40:42I mean, I'm quite sure, as all of us will one day
0:40:42 > 0:40:46and this is not trying to attack your vulnerabilities,
0:40:46 > 0:40:48but life is very short.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51All of us go on our deathbeds in a comparatively short time
0:40:51 > 0:40:55and when we are,
0:40:55 > 0:40:58and that will be no laughing matter,
0:40:58 > 0:41:03it is very much that Christ I would like to be held up in front of me
0:41:03 > 0:41:05than the Christ I saw this afternoon.
0:41:05 > 0:41:07- It did bring home to me... - That's just...- Sorry.
0:41:07 > 0:41:10I was going to say very quickly that the film reminded me
0:41:10 > 0:41:13of something I knew but tend to forget,
0:41:13 > 0:41:15that it wasn't only Jesus that was crucified.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18An awful lot of people were crucified in horrific circumstances
0:41:18 > 0:41:20every day under Roman rule.
0:41:20 > 0:41:23- Yes, that's very true. - That fact came home in the film.
0:41:23 > 0:41:26You realise that Jesus didn't have
0:41:26 > 0:41:29a sort of total copyright on crucifixion?
0:41:29 > 0:41:33Yeah, but Jesus was crucified, wasn't he, for his obedience
0:41:33 > 0:41:35to the will of God.
0:41:35 > 0:41:39- You can't say..- He was crucified surely for blasphemy?
0:41:39 > 0:41:42Well, they accused him of blasphemy
0:41:42 > 0:41:46because he was obedient to the word of God and of his kingdom.
0:41:46 > 0:41:49You can't say that came over today
0:41:49 > 0:41:53with any of the people being crucified.
0:41:53 > 0:41:58- But that wasn't... - The whole way that it was done, they were not dying for a noble idea.
0:41:58 > 0:42:01Well, neither were the...
0:42:01 > 0:42:03Can I just make the point I was trying to make earlier on
0:42:03 > 0:42:07about the film not being seen entirely in religious terms?
0:42:07 > 0:42:11As Tim has said, people were crucified then as common criminals.
0:42:11 > 0:42:15It was just a form then of capital punishment employed by the Romans
0:42:15 > 0:42:17who were regarded as highly civilised.
0:42:17 > 0:42:18But it was capital punishment
0:42:18 > 0:42:21and in the film, we examine attitudes to capital punishment.
0:42:21 > 0:42:26In this country, the majority of people, we are often told, are in favour of capital punishment.
0:42:26 > 0:42:29It seems we haven't come that far in all that time.
0:42:29 > 0:42:32Where do you think, in all these centuries of Christendom,
0:42:32 > 0:42:35that the greatest minds, the most creative minds,
0:42:35 > 0:42:38the greatest artists were believers in this thing
0:42:38 > 0:42:41that you airily dismiss and say that you,
0:42:41 > 0:42:44making this little film,
0:42:44 > 0:42:47have managed to see deeply into it?
0:42:47 > 0:42:50- I don't...- You can't say... What about Bertrand Russell?
0:42:50 > 0:42:54You dismiss them, of course. You don't care.
0:42:54 > 0:42:55AUDIENCE LAUGHS
0:42:55 > 0:42:59I said the centuries of Christendom. I didn't say in our time.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02I said if you were to make a list of all the people
0:43:02 > 0:43:05- who have contributed most... - Most of them would have been Muslims
0:43:05 > 0:43:07if they'd been living in Arab countries, or Buddhists...
0:43:07 > 0:43:10What's that got to do with it?
0:43:10 > 0:43:11LAUGHTER
0:43:11 > 0:43:14These people were inspired by this event,
0:43:14 > 0:43:18which you have celebrated in this film
0:43:18 > 0:43:21by a lot of people on crosses, singing a sort of...
0:43:21 > 0:43:25As if it was rather an inferior musical.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27Death perhaps doesn't matter that much.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30Which is what you're saying the whole time.
0:43:30 > 0:43:33- You're looking forward to it? - I'm looking forward to it keenly.
0:43:33 > 0:43:37- So you're not sad about it?- No, I'm looking forward to it keenly
0:43:37 > 0:43:40because I relate it to these very things that you dismiss.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43I relate it to the story of the incarnation,
0:43:43 > 0:43:46this great drama of the incarnation, which you have reduced
0:43:46 > 0:43:49to a sort of comic film.
0:43:49 > 0:43:52Now, you think that in doing that you have shed light.
0:43:52 > 0:43:55I have to tell you that you haven't shed light.
0:43:55 > 0:43:57You've made some rather bad jokes
0:43:57 > 0:44:00and the only reason people come to see it
0:44:00 > 0:44:02is because they still relate it
0:44:02 > 0:44:06to this extraordinary story of the incarnation.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09Which is, in fact, the beginning and the end
0:44:09 > 0:44:12of everything that our civilisation stands for.
0:44:12 > 0:44:15Our civilisation began with a man, the apostle Paul,
0:44:15 > 0:44:18telling the pagan world about the incarnation.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20That was the beginning of it.
0:44:20 > 0:44:22We're not the only civilisation in the world.
0:44:22 > 0:44:26- There's a lot of civilisations with different religions, right? - Certainly.
0:44:26 > 0:44:30The important thing is people should be open to various possibilities.
0:44:30 > 0:44:32- But...- And they should take a critical attitude.
0:44:32 > 0:44:36But who ever said they shouldn't be open? You don't make people open
0:44:36 > 0:44:38by producing the sort of buffoonery you produced.
0:44:38 > 0:44:40We certainly don't make people open
0:44:40 > 0:44:43by giving them the kind of garbage I was given at school.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:44:46 > 0:44:50I'm very sympathetic to you for having received this garbage,
0:44:50 > 0:44:53some of it at the hands of our friend the bishop here.
0:44:53 > 0:44:56I'm very sympathetic indeed and I think it's very sad
0:44:56 > 0:44:59and tragic you should have been cut off
0:44:59 > 0:45:02from something that's so wonderful and only given garbage.
0:45:02 > 0:45:04But I would simply point out to you
0:45:04 > 0:45:07that if you look, if you care about
0:45:07 > 0:45:10what constitutes what we call western civilisation,
0:45:10 > 0:45:13which is now probably coming to an end,
0:45:13 > 0:45:17and you were to consider the role that's been played in that
0:45:17 > 0:45:21by this thing that you treat as a piece of buffoonery,
0:45:21 > 0:45:26you would have a certain humility in saying that you have been able,
0:45:26 > 0:45:30through making it, to shed light upon something.
0:45:30 > 0:45:33You keep making the assumption... Sorry, let me just say this.
0:45:33 > 0:45:37You keep making the basic assumption that we are ridiculing Christ
0:45:37 > 0:45:40and Christ's teaching and I say that we are not.
0:45:40 > 0:45:44Do you imagine your scene, for instance the Sermon on the Mount,
0:45:44 > 0:45:48the scene in your film of the Sermon on the Mount,
0:45:48 > 0:45:50is not ridiculing one of the most sublime utterances
0:45:50 > 0:45:53that any human being has ever spoken on this earth?
0:45:53 > 0:45:55Of course it is.
0:45:55 > 0:45:59It makes fun of the guy who's remembered it wrong and the people who miss the point.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02- Well, I think...- That's really unfair because a lot of people
0:46:02 > 0:46:06looking in will think we have actually ridiculed Christ physically.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09Christ is played by an actor, Kenneth Colley.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12He speaks the words from the Sermon on the Mount.
0:46:12 > 0:46:16It's treated respectfully. The camera pans away, we go to the back of the crowd
0:46:16 > 0:46:19and someone shouts, "Speak up!" Because they can't hear.
0:46:19 > 0:46:21LAUGHTER
0:46:21 > 0:46:24Now, if that utterly undermines your faith in Christ,
0:46:24 > 0:46:25then it can't be that strong.
0:46:25 > 0:46:29Of course it doesn't. I started off saying this is such a tenth-rate film
0:46:29 > 0:46:32that I don't believe it would disturb anybody's faith.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35You started with an open mind, I realise that.
0:46:35 > 0:46:37LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:46:40 > 0:46:44John, may I put to you a question?
0:46:44 > 0:46:47Now, without in any way being pompous,
0:46:47 > 0:46:51I have been Bishop of South London now
0:46:51 > 0:46:53for over 20 years
0:46:53 > 0:46:57and I'm appalled by the sadness, the unhappiness,
0:46:57 > 0:47:02the tragedy of life. The drug scene,
0:47:02 > 0:47:05the violence, the muggings and so on.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08And many people now are standing back
0:47:08 > 0:47:12with a measure of deep disturbance and some horror.
0:47:12 > 0:47:16I was at the University of Cambridge only the Sunday before last
0:47:16 > 0:47:20and I'm told how the undergraduates are now turning up to chapel
0:47:20 > 0:47:23and seeking, seeing if Christianity
0:47:23 > 0:47:25has got something to offer.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28I think most of us, I'm sure all of you,
0:47:28 > 0:47:31however much you may differ on this film,
0:47:31 > 0:47:34we are deeply disturbed by what's going on in the world
0:47:34 > 0:47:36and in this country.
0:47:36 > 0:47:40Now, there is a desire to find truth.
0:47:40 > 0:47:45To find some answer to our problems and the question I would put to you
0:47:45 > 0:47:48is could you really put your hand on your heart
0:47:48 > 0:47:52and say that film is going to help the younger generation
0:47:52 > 0:47:55- in its pilgrimage for truth? - Absolutely.
0:47:55 > 0:47:58The message is... What is it, Michael?
0:47:58 > 0:48:02Work it out for yourselves, you're all individuals. Don't do what people tell you to do.
0:48:02 > 0:48:06- That's not...- You find that a finalness of...?- No, no.
0:48:06 > 0:48:11- Starting point, starting point. - Including the lampooning of Christ?
0:48:11 > 0:48:15The lampooning of his death, which is the most disgraceful part?
0:48:15 > 0:48:17Surely, Michael, it was a lampooning
0:48:17 > 0:48:21of a form of death which happened to hundreds of people?
0:48:21 > 0:48:25You are lampooning a scene which has played a fantastic part
0:48:25 > 0:48:28in the lives of believers for generations.
0:48:28 > 0:48:32A scene that has inspired the most amazing disinterestedness,
0:48:32 > 0:48:37creativity, that set St Francis of Assisi wandering about the streets.
0:48:37 > 0:48:41- Yes, true.- That inspired St Augustine to write The City Of God...
0:48:41 > 0:48:44This I accept, but I think the crucifixion...
0:48:44 > 0:48:48All you've done is make a lot of people on the cross, singing a music hall song.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50LAUGHTER
0:48:50 > 0:48:53I mean, it's so disgusting when you think of it.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55A lot of people go away very happy, laughing,
0:48:55 > 0:48:59- their faith not touched one jot. - I don't think it would touch their faith.
0:48:59 > 0:49:02APPLAUSE
0:49:10 > 0:49:14A lot of people on the first Good Friday went away from Calgary,
0:49:14 > 0:49:18laughing their heads off and thinking the death of Jesus
0:49:18 > 0:49:20- was a tremendous joke. - That's very true.
0:49:20 > 0:49:22APPLAUSE
0:49:22 > 0:49:24As a matter of fact, all you've done...
0:49:24 > 0:49:26The person you've followed in this film is Herod.
0:49:26 > 0:49:29It was Herod who organised this absurd scene
0:49:29 > 0:49:33and I'm only amazed that you didn't get some comic effects
0:49:33 > 0:49:34out of the crown of thorns.
0:49:34 > 0:49:37That's the only thing that puzzles me in the film.
0:49:37 > 0:49:41If we wanted to make a joke of Jesus, he would've been on the cross.
0:49:41 > 0:49:43He's in the film. He is not on the cross.
0:49:43 > 0:49:44You make...
0:49:44 > 0:49:47It's a gang of thieves, of common criminals who were,
0:49:47 > 0:49:50- at that time, crucified in the hundreds day by day.- That's...
0:49:50 > 0:49:54I'm sorry. You think I'm wrong, but that's what I feel. It is not Christ...
0:49:54 > 0:49:59- I think it's ludicrous because the people seeing this... - This is what the film's about.
0:49:59 > 0:50:05Malcolm can I just say... to an outsider, the Crucifixion is a much stronger event
0:50:05 > 0:50:09if one realises that Christ went through something that everyone went through.
0:50:09 > 0:50:12If you treat it like something only he went through,
0:50:12 > 0:50:13which is the image you get,
0:50:13 > 0:50:16I never realised everyone got crucified.
0:50:16 > 0:50:21If he was crucified between... He was crucified between two thieves...
0:50:21 > 0:50:25If the experience of those three people was the same,
0:50:25 > 0:50:28because they went through the same physical experience,
0:50:28 > 0:50:33then you are utterly misunderstanding what the Crucifixion means.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37What the Passion means. Why it's had this enormous role in people's lives.
0:50:37 > 0:50:38It wouldn't have had that role
0:50:38 > 0:50:43if it was simply one of innumerable men dying on a cross.
0:50:43 > 0:50:49It's because of what it signified, in terms of the incarnation,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52and, of course, you leave that all out of account.
0:50:52 > 0:50:56What you've done is you've made... You've succeeded in doing,
0:50:56 > 0:51:00and for that reason, it will have no influence in the long run...
0:51:00 > 0:51:05You have succeeded in reducing something which has inspired the greatest art
0:51:05 > 0:51:10into something which is presented in terms of the lowest art.
0:51:10 > 0:51:13You've said that we have to influence people.
0:51:13 > 0:51:16We're just trying to make them laugh, make them happy.
0:51:16 > 0:51:21- It helps them in the current situation the world is in. - I'll have to call a halt.
0:51:21 > 0:51:24I think you've made people happy and made them think and laugh.
0:51:24 > 0:51:31- I think we've made them talk about it.- You'll get your 30 pieces of silver, I'm quite sure.
0:51:31 > 0:51:33I hasten to add that...
0:51:33 > 0:51:38APPLAUSE
0:51:38 > 0:51:40No, but you don't understand...
0:51:40 > 0:51:42APPLAUSE DROWNS SPEECH
0:51:44 > 0:51:48..You're missing a wonderful thing by seeing it in those terms
0:51:48 > 0:51:54- and it's utterly tragic to me. - Thank you very much. I hope that film won't shake anybody's faith.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57Paul Jones has returned to his first love, the blues,
0:51:57 > 0:52:00but without abandoning his acting career - as he's currently in a West End musical.
0:52:00 > 0:52:07He's spending a lot of time behind a harmonica and a microphone in front of the Blues Band.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09Here they are with Boom Boom, Out Go The Lights.
0:52:22 > 0:52:23# No kiddin'
0:52:23 > 0:52:25# I'm ready to fight
0:52:25 > 0:52:29# I've been lookin' for my baby all night
0:52:29 > 0:52:33# If I get her in my sight
0:52:33 > 0:52:36# Boom boom! Out go the lights
0:52:43 > 0:52:46# I thought I was treating my baby fair
0:52:46 > 0:52:50# Now she's gettin' all in my hair
0:52:50 > 0:52:53# If I get her in my sight
0:52:54 > 0:52:57# Boom boom! Out go the lights
0:53:46 > 0:53:47# No kiddin'
0:53:47 > 0:53:49# I'm ready to go
0:53:49 > 0:53:53# If I find her, boy, don't you know
0:53:53 > 0:53:57# If I get her in my sight
0:53:57 > 0:54:00# Boom boom! Out go the lights
0:54:07 > 0:54:11# I've never been so mad before
0:54:11 > 0:54:14# Till I found out she ain't mine no more
0:54:14 > 0:54:17# If I get her in my sight
0:54:18 > 0:54:21# Boom boom! Out go the lights. #
0:55:13 > 0:55:16APPLAUSE
0:55:26 > 0:55:30Boom Boom, Out Go The Lights from the Blues Band - vocals, Paul Jones.
0:55:30 > 0:55:34The Blues Band are playing in London now. I recommend them warmly.
0:55:34 > 0:55:38My final guest is a phenomenon of the publishing world.
0:55:38 > 0:55:41Few households have never found space for one or more
0:55:41 > 0:55:43of the 26 editions of the Guinness Book Of Records,
0:55:43 > 0:55:46the largest-selling copyright book ever.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49Please welcome Norris McWhirter.
0:55:49 > 0:55:52APPLAUSE
0:55:59 > 0:56:03Norris, you are the author, compiler, editor?
0:56:03 > 0:56:07- What do you call yourself of the Guinness Book Of Records? - Yes, I put it together.
0:56:07 > 0:56:10Why do you think people buy it every year?
0:56:10 > 0:56:15It's a great book, and I've bought it at least 23 of the 26 years,
0:56:15 > 0:56:16but why do people go on buying it?
0:56:16 > 0:56:19Every year it goes to number one on the book charts.
0:56:19 > 0:56:24Because 22-23% of it gets out of date every year.
0:56:24 > 0:56:31This obsolescence is so high that last year's edition is no good, so you've got to have this year's.
0:56:31 > 0:56:35- Like American cars, it has built-in obsolescence. - Yes, like American cars.
0:56:35 > 0:56:39Do you ever get a bad year, like a bad Beaujolais, when no records are broken?
0:56:39 > 0:56:44No, every year is a vintage year as regards breaking records.
0:56:44 > 0:56:49Next year will be an Olympic year and it'll be even worse - or better, whichever way you look at it.
0:56:49 > 0:56:53It's possible that one year, not an awful lot will happen.
0:56:53 > 0:56:59No, everything happens. The astounding thing is when things you think are settled -
0:56:59 > 0:57:01you can't break - THEY get broken.
0:57:01 > 0:57:04They even found, last year, a piece of land further north
0:57:04 > 0:57:07than the most northerly piece of land ever known.
0:57:07 > 0:57:11You'd think that that was impossible, but these things happen.
0:57:11 > 0:57:15- Under the ice, was this? - Yes, it was under the ice.
0:57:15 > 0:57:19North of a place called Kaffeklubben O - O is the Danish for "island".
0:57:19 > 0:57:23And that is north of Greenland, closest to the North Pole.
0:57:23 > 0:57:31- How far away from the North Pole? - It's about 360 miles, so it's a long way.- Quite a slog.- Yes, a long slog.
0:57:31 > 0:57:36There are some records like Bob Beamon's long-jump record,
0:57:36 > 0:57:39which seems set for a good few years.
0:57:39 > 0:57:46Even Bob Beamon with his 29 feet 2.5 inches which he did in Mexico City in 1968, that is under threat,
0:57:46 > 0:57:49because there's an American called Larry Myricks,
0:57:49 > 0:57:53and he's jumped 27 feet 11.75 inches at sea level.
0:57:53 > 0:57:58At sea level, the resistance is much higher than at altitude.
0:57:58 > 0:58:02When you're at altitude, a mile-and-a-half up in Mexico City,
0:58:02 > 0:58:06the air is thinner. It's only 76% to be precise.
0:58:06 > 0:58:13So, one would expect any jump at Beamon's level in Mexico City level to be 20-odd% better.
0:58:13 > 0:58:18Yes. He missed out the 28s. He went straight from 27.5 right up.
0:58:18 > 0:58:22Has this chap tried it up in Mexico City?
0:58:22 > 0:58:27No, he hasn't. I hope he does. If he does, great people always say,
0:58:27 > 0:58:31"Nobody now alive will ever see that record broken" - Bob Beamon's.
0:58:31 > 0:58:33It was a remarkable record.
0:58:33 > 0:58:36It was the equivalent to knocking 13 seconds off the mile.
0:58:36 > 0:58:38So it's a tremendous improvement.
0:58:38 > 0:58:43How do you classify records? Say, I was to run 101 yards and say,
0:58:43 > 0:58:47"This is the world's fastest 101 yards," would you let it in?
0:58:47 > 0:58:53Certainly not, no. That would just be fudging it.
0:58:53 > 0:58:56Records have got to have some significance
0:58:56 > 0:59:01and be internationally competitive and comparable.
0:59:01 > 0:59:07There are some things so crazy that nobody else does them, so there's nothing to compare.
0:59:07 > 0:59:13For instance, the first underwater violinist - nobody else does it.
0:59:13 > 0:59:17- There is one?- Yes, a chap called Mark Gottlieb in Oregon.
0:59:17 > 0:59:23He's dead serious, he has waterproof rosin and he takes it really seriously.
0:59:23 > 0:59:25How could you beat it? Staying under longer?
0:59:25 > 0:59:28The Japanese have an underwater orchestra.
0:59:30 > 0:59:32- Really? - That's the way to beat it.
0:59:32 > 0:59:34BOTH CHUCKLE
0:59:34 > 0:59:37Are there any records which you wouldn't print?
0:59:37 > 0:59:43Like if someone said, "I've driven from Piccadilly Circus to the centre of Oxford in 32 minutes" -
0:59:43 > 0:59:45which I've done on several occasions!
0:59:45 > 0:59:48- Would you not print that? - Certainly not.
0:59:48 > 0:59:51No, we don't print anything gratuitously dangerous
0:59:51 > 0:59:57or records of place-to-place driving because innocent people would get killed.
0:59:57 > 1:00:00We know some of the figures and they're horrific,
1:00:00 > 1:00:04but we don't publish them and nor do anyone else.
1:00:04 > 1:00:07There's a conspiracy of silence about those things.
1:00:07 > 1:00:12- Has any faked record ever got past you?- No, we nearly had one.
1:00:12 > 1:00:20We used to be a great pub game and the book was invented to settle arguments in 84,000 pubs.
1:00:20 > 1:00:24That's why it's called Guinness. What happened was,
1:00:24 > 1:00:30they used to balance 12-sided three-penny bits edge-on-edge, and the record was 11.
1:00:30 > 1:00:33One day, we got a claim for 13. That made us immediately suspicious.
1:00:33 > 1:00:38People never break records by a bigger margin than you have to.
1:00:38 > 1:00:41And I phoned this fellow up who was down in Eastbourne,
1:00:41 > 1:00:45and I said that I wanted to know how he did this great feat.
1:00:45 > 1:00:47Eventually he admitted how he did it.
1:00:47 > 1:00:55He got hold of the coins, got a card table, glued it to a ceiling, put a carpet up there and a chair,
1:00:55 > 1:00:59suspended them with tape and photographed the lot upside down.
1:00:59 > 1:01:03LAUGHTER But luckily he admitted it.
1:01:03 > 1:01:08How did the book begin? One often hears stories, but you and your brother Ross...
1:01:08 > 1:01:12- Was it actually your idea? - No, we were commissioned to do it.
1:01:12 > 1:01:16We were already working on records for a breakfast food company.
1:01:16 > 1:01:22Sir Hugh Beaver, the Chief Executive of the Guinness brewery was out shooting in Ireland,
1:01:22 > 1:01:28and he either missed or got, or was shooting at, a golden plover.
1:01:28 > 1:01:32He wanted to know if this was the fastest game bird in Europe.
1:01:32 > 1:01:35Very expensive reference books, none told him the answer.
1:01:35 > 1:01:39It occurred to him that this is the sort of thing people argue about.
1:01:39 > 1:01:43Not golden plovers - the greatest weight a man's ever lifted
1:01:43 > 1:01:47or the most children any woman's had - those things.
1:01:47 > 1:01:51And there's no book which gives you the answer and he said,
1:01:51 > 1:01:56"Right, we will produce such a book." That's how it was generated.
1:01:56 > 1:01:58Did you anticipate such huge success?
1:01:58 > 1:02:03No, because the first one we produced went to the chief buyer
1:02:03 > 1:02:08of the largest wholesale chain in the country, as you know, he's an author.
1:02:08 > 1:02:12And he looked at it and wrote down on a pad his order.
1:02:12 > 1:02:14For the whole nation, six copies.
1:02:14 > 1:02:20- Six!- He now orders 120,000, so it's changed a little bit.
1:02:20 > 1:02:23What would you have done if it hadn't taken off?
1:02:23 > 1:02:26- If it hadn't? - Say, if the idea hadn't worked.
1:02:26 > 1:02:29We would've been working on other ideas
1:02:29 > 1:02:32because we had a business, supplying facts and figures
1:02:32 > 1:02:36to newspapers and yearbooks and advertisers.
1:02:36 > 1:02:42- So you were in that business already?- Yes. - And this was the magic thing.
1:02:42 > 1:02:46It was a call from Chris Chataway that summoned us to the brewery,
1:02:46 > 1:02:49because he had just got his first job there.
1:02:49 > 1:02:54He was a world record holder for the three miles, so it was rather appropriate that it was him.
1:02:54 > 1:02:57- How long did he hold that record for?- A very short time.
1:02:57 > 1:03:01He was overtaken, it was 13 minutes 32.2, if I remember rightly.
1:03:01 > 1:03:05He shared it with a fellow called Freddie Green and was overtaken rapidly
1:03:05 > 1:03:11Vladimir Kuts ran faster but he didn't used to be timed at three miles as he was metrically-minded.
1:03:11 > 1:03:17- Chataway, I recall, beat Kuts. - He did. That was a famous 5,000 metres.
1:03:17 > 1:03:23That was about a month after we went to the brewery, in October 1954.
1:03:23 > 1:03:29I remember everyone was white at the knuckles and it was televised and it was a tremendous race.
1:03:29 > 1:03:34If I can get on to you yourself very briefly, to end up with.
1:03:34 > 1:03:37You lost Ross tragically, four years ago.
1:03:37 > 1:03:41Obviously, it's made a great difference to your life,
1:03:41 > 1:03:45but do you find you can function on your own? Or being an identical twin,
1:03:45 > 1:03:52have you lost something more than a brother. Especially someone so closely involved with your work.
1:03:52 > 1:03:57An identical twin is genetically the same person, and every day,
1:03:57 > 1:04:01I miss him as his knowledge in certain fields was better than mine
1:04:01 > 1:04:04and we worked so closely together.
1:04:04 > 1:04:06Also, you had the opportunity of discussing things
1:04:06 > 1:04:12and in that way, one had to be halved or doubled.
1:04:12 > 1:04:16And one has to make double the effort to be the same person.
1:04:16 > 1:04:18The book, despite the tragic loss of Ross,
1:04:18 > 1:04:22has gone from strength to strength, and your team...
1:04:22 > 1:04:24There's a wonderful team of people.
1:04:24 > 1:04:28Very enthusiastic. They work very hard. People are happier when they work hard.
1:04:28 > 1:04:34We're now in 24 languages and so it sells about 75,000 a week
1:04:34 > 1:04:42- and it's hard keeping it going. - I'm not surprised and you are in your own book as the largest...
1:04:42 > 1:04:49- We had to put it in, because we overtook...- Modest though you were. - Well, we have to record records.
1:04:49 > 1:04:52And Dr Spock, we overtook in November 1974.
1:04:52 > 1:04:55And as Dr Spock disowns everything he ever said,
1:04:55 > 1:04:59it's justice that he's been booted out of your book.
1:04:59 > 1:05:02He's very interesting, I'd love to meet him.
1:05:02 > 1:05:06He won a gold medal for rowing in the Olympics in 1924.
1:05:06 > 1:05:08I only discovered that recently.
1:05:08 > 1:05:12- Norris McWhirter, thank you very much indeed.- Thank you.
1:05:12 > 1:05:16APPLAUSE
1:05:23 > 1:05:27This is the end of the show and the end of my long run as host - two weeks.
1:05:27 > 1:05:29LAUGHTER
1:05:29 > 1:05:34Next week, the Cambridge Footlights will be taking over the entire programme
1:05:34 > 1:05:40and I'll be speaking at the Odiham and Greywell Cricket Club at their annual dinner for a derisory fee.
1:05:40 > 1:05:42Thanks to John Cleese, Michael Palin, Malcolm Muggeridge,
1:05:42 > 1:05:48the Bishop of Southwark, Paul Jones, the Blues Band and Norris McWhirter. Over and out.
1:05:48 > 1:05:52APPLAUSE
1:06:04 > 1:06:07Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
1:06:07 > 1:06:10E-mail: subtitling@bbc.co.uk