Pennod 2 o 2

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0:00:00 > 0:00:01- 888

0:00:02 > 0:00:07- The result of the Carmarthen - by-election in 1966 was astounding.

0:00:08 > 0:00:11- Many saw Gwynfor Evans - as a national saviour...

0:00:12 > 0:00:15- ..but the victory opened the door...

0:00:15 > 0:00:19- ..to a period of bitter feuding - in Welsh politics.

0:00:20 > 0:00:23- It was very exciting, - going up to London.

0:00:24 > 0:00:27- Everybody lined the streets - in places like Brynaman.

0:00:28 > 0:00:30- They were waving at us.

0:00:30 > 0:00:32- It was a very exciting time.

0:00:33 > 0:00:37- My father was very happy - and excited...

0:00:37 > 0:00:42- ..but the responsibility - laid heavily on his shoulders.

0:00:45 > 0:00:49- Personally, I think it was - the highlight of his life.

0:00:50 > 0:00:54- It changed the self-confidence - of the Welsh people.

0:00:56 > 0:01:00- The idea of the Member for Wales - came about...

0:01:00 > 0:01:04- ..because only he was good enough - to represent Wales in Parliament!

0:01:04 > 0:01:07- Cledwyn Hughes, Jim Griffiths - and Goronwy Roberts...

0:01:07 > 0:01:09- ..didn't represent Wales

0:01:09 > 0:01:14- Their hearts didn't work for the - people of Wales. Only he did that!

0:01:15 > 0:01:18- When Dafydd Iwan - released the record...

0:01:18 > 0:01:20- ..'God willing, he will come'...

0:01:20 > 0:01:24- ..he wasn't happy with that record - because in his opinion...

0:01:25 > 0:01:27- ..he had already arrived - and it was him.

0:01:28 > 0:01:31- He was supposed to be - Wales's saviour.

0:01:42 > 0:01:45- It was a clear signal - to my generation...

0:01:45 > 0:01:48- ..and to Dafydd Wigley's - and Phil Williams' generation...

0:01:48 > 0:01:52- ..that a political career - was possible through Plaid Cymru.

0:01:55 > 0:01:58- The result started a new era, - not only for Wales...

0:01:59 > 0:02:01- ..but for Scotland - and British politics.

0:02:01 > 0:02:04- The Carmarthen by-election, - July 1966...

0:02:04 > 0:02:06- ..and Gwynfor's victory, - created that.

0:02:07 > 0:02:14- I did regret the fact - that Gwilym Prys-Davies had lost.

0:02:15 > 0:02:21- I think Gwilym Prys-Davies would - have been a more effective MP...

0:02:21 > 0:02:26- ..but I was delighted that Gwynfor - had won as a Plaid member.

0:02:31 > 0:02:34- Excitement filled the place.

0:02:34 > 0:02:41- Elystan said, "What have I done? - I've made a mistake, haven't I?"

0:02:42 > 0:02:45- I never said - that I had made a mistake.

0:02:46 > 0:02:50- I can't tell you whether - I would have left the party...

0:02:51 > 0:02:53- ..if I hadn't joined Labour...

0:02:54 > 0:02:57- ..and Gwynfor had won in 1966.

0:02:57 > 0:03:02- Whether I would have had the moral - courage to leave, I don't know.

0:03:03 > 0:03:07- Gwynfor's supporters and enemies - would agree...

0:03:07 > 0:03:11- ..that his election had - transformed the political climate.

0:03:12 > 0:03:14- But after the thrill of victory...

0:03:14 > 0:03:18- ..it was time to face the reality - of the House of Commons.

0:03:18 > 0:03:22- Gwynfor said he felt like - a fish out of water in Parliament.

0:03:23 > 0:03:27- He couldn't bear the arrogant - Englishness of the place.

0:03:27 > 0:03:32- His frosty relationship with Welsh - Labour members made things worse.

0:03:32 > 0:03:37- With a few exceptions, like - Elystan Morgan and Cledwyn Hughes...

0:03:37 > 0:03:40- ..they hated the nationalist.

0:03:41 > 0:03:44- If anybody asks me - about Gwynfor Evans...

0:03:44 > 0:03:48- ..the ultimate conclusion - I have of him...

0:03:49 > 0:03:53- ..he was the biggest bore - I knew in politics.

0:03:53 > 0:03:59- Because of his - single-minded tunnel vision...

0:03:59 > 0:04:04- ..concentrating entirely, - always upon the language.

0:04:04 > 0:04:06- He ran on tram lines.

0:04:07 > 0:04:11- The Labour members were prepared - to attack him mercilessly...

0:04:11 > 0:04:16- ..and they would not compromise - with the new arrival.

0:04:16 > 0:04:21- The reaction of most Labour MPs...

0:04:22 > 0:04:25- ..was to decide - that no further concessions...

0:04:25 > 0:04:29- ..would be given to Plaid - Cymru or Welsh nationalism.

0:04:29 > 0:04:35- It became very difficult for the - devolutionists in the Labour Party.

0:04:35 > 0:04:40- It made political life difficult, - of course...

0:04:40 > 0:04:44- ..but if it created problems, - it also created possibilities.

0:04:44 > 0:04:50- We were more convinced than ever - that the Labour Party needed...

0:04:50 > 0:04:54- ..more members like me to do the - work, and I think we've done that.

0:04:54 > 0:04:58- Without an office, but with his - daughter, Meleri, as secretary...

0:04:58 > 0:05:01- ..the working day was unusual.

0:05:02 > 0:05:05- We would sit on a settee - in a corridor...

0:05:05 > 0:05:10- ..and we'd have papers across the - settee, on the floor - everywhere.

0:05:10 > 0:05:13- We'd be there for hours...

0:05:13 > 0:05:17- ..going through the letters - and answering them.

0:05:17 > 0:05:21- Then we'd go and stay - with his sister, Ceridwen...

0:05:21 > 0:05:23- ..who lived just down the road.

0:05:23 > 0:05:26- We would type the letters - during the night...

0:05:26 > 0:05:29- ..and return in the morning - for him to sign them.

0:05:31 > 0:05:32- If London was difficult...

0:05:32 > 0:05:37- ..he received a hero's welcome at - the party conference that summer.

0:05:37 > 0:05:40- Money and members - poured into Plaid Cymru...

0:05:40 > 0:05:43- ..and Gwynfor was the big idol.

0:05:43 > 0:05:46- He felt that some went too far.

0:05:47 > 0:05:50- They would almost - fall down before him.

0:05:50 > 0:05:55- But he was happy that a group - within the party...

0:05:56 > 0:05:59- ..would support him - no matter what he said.

0:06:00 > 0:06:03- I think there was - a fair reason to do that.

0:06:03 > 0:06:06- He had devoted his life - to that organisation.

0:06:06 > 0:06:09- I think he was the best leader.

0:06:11 > 0:06:15- But at the conference, - listening to the leader...

0:06:15 > 0:06:18- ..were members - of the Free Wales Army.

0:06:18 > 0:06:20- Turn right!

0:06:21 > 0:06:26- The FWA destroyed a lot - of Plaid Cymru's credibility...

0:06:26 > 0:06:29- ..and Gwynfor's credibility.

0:06:29 > 0:06:33- One of the pillars - of Gwynfor's cause since 1945...

0:06:33 > 0:06:36- ..was Plaid Cymru's respectability.

0:06:36 > 0:06:38- It wasn't overly-radical...

0:06:38 > 0:06:41- ..and wouldn't offend - the respectable people...

0:06:41 > 0:06:44- ..who always voted - for the Liberal Party.

0:06:45 > 0:06:48- Gwynfor denied all links - with the FWA...

0:06:48 > 0:06:52- ..by sticking to the work - of the constitutional nationalist.

0:06:52 > 0:06:54- He used a technique...

0:06:54 > 0:06:57- ..and he led the way - in developing this technique...

0:06:58 > 0:07:01- ..of asking lots and lots - of Parliamentary Questions.

0:07:01 > 0:07:03- He had a very intelligent team.

0:07:04 > 0:07:08- People like Dafydd Wigley, - Phil Williams and Eurfyl ap Gwilym.

0:07:08 > 0:07:10- They would feed these questions...

0:07:11 > 0:07:15- ..and he would just keep on - asking about the situation in Wales.

0:07:16 > 0:07:18- By the end of his first year...

0:07:18 > 0:07:22- ..he had asked more than - 600 questions about Wales...

0:07:22 > 0:07:26- ..and the Labour Government's - efforts to improve Wales.

0:07:26 > 0:07:28- But it wasn't helping...

0:07:28 > 0:07:31- ..the Welshman from Anglesey - in the Welsh Office.

0:07:31 > 0:07:36- Cledwyn Hughes wanted to establish - an elected council for Wales.

0:07:36 > 0:07:39- But some Labour members felt - it would be better...

0:07:39 > 0:07:43- ..to spend more time - bashing the nationalists.

0:07:44 > 0:07:48- Within the first 15 to 18 months...

0:07:48 > 0:07:53- ..he had lost important debates - in favour of the elected council...

0:07:53 > 0:07:57- ..in three Cabinet committees.

0:07:58 > 0:08:02- And before long, he lost his job - to a politician...

0:08:02 > 0:08:05- ..whose views on Wales, - the Welsh language and Gwynfor...

0:08:06 > 0:08:08- ..were very different - - George Thomas.

0:08:10 > 0:08:15- The Welsh Questions hour developed - into a personal battle...

0:08:15 > 0:08:17- ..between Gwynfor and George Thomas.

0:08:18 > 0:08:21- The Secretary of State for Wales - seized every opportunity...

0:08:22 > 0:08:26- ..to lambast the nationalists - and the Plaid Cymru MP.

0:08:26 > 0:08:31- According to Gwynfor, Leo Abse - was gentle compared to George.

0:08:31 > 0:08:33- "Bore da i gyd."

0:08:33 > 0:08:35- That means, "Good morning - all members here."

0:08:38 > 0:08:43- Some believed - that hidden nationalists...

0:08:43 > 0:08:46- ..threatened the future - of the Labour Party.

0:08:47 > 0:08:50- That they were behind the curtain, - behind the wallpaper.

0:08:50 > 0:08:56- I can remember a lot of things - George Thomas said...

0:08:57 > 0:08:59- ..about "these nationalists".

0:09:00 > 0:09:04- The last year of the decade, - the year of the Investiture...

0:09:04 > 0:09:07- ..was even more fierce - in its politics.

0:09:07 > 0:09:10- The party's Vice President - was Prince Charles' Welsh tutor.

0:09:10 > 0:09:15- I'm certain that I have - the best authority...

0:09:15 > 0:09:20- ..to say that it was - a political stunt.

0:09:21 > 0:09:27- The party's policy, and it was - a wise policy at the time...

0:09:28 > 0:09:30- ..was to keep our heads down.

0:09:30 > 0:09:34- You couldn't win - by attacking the Monarchy.

0:09:35 > 0:09:38- Wise or not, - Plaid Cymru was in a mess...

0:09:38 > 0:09:41- ..and Gwynfor was under - serious pressure...

0:09:41 > 0:09:45- ..as secret organisations - bombed prominent buildings.

0:09:46 > 0:09:49- I think that Mr Gwynfor Evans...

0:09:49 > 0:09:52- ..must be feeling thoroughly - ashamed of himself.

0:09:53 > 0:09:57- I believe that nationalism has - created an atmosphere of hatred...

0:09:57 > 0:10:01- ..with their constant reference - to the English Government.

0:10:02 > 0:10:07- There was a deliberate strategy - by the Labour Government...

0:10:07 > 0:10:10- ..by Gwynoro Jones, - by George Thomas...

0:10:10 > 0:10:13- ..as is proven in this memoranda...

0:10:13 > 0:10:20- ..that Plaid Cymru was ambiguous - in its condemnation of violence.

0:10:20 > 0:10:27- The Labour Party collected quotes - by Gwynfor over previous years...

0:10:27 > 0:10:30- ..to "prove" that Gwynfor Evans...

0:10:30 > 0:10:33- ..was ambiguous - on the use of violence.

0:10:33 > 0:10:39- The aim was to link Gwynfor Evans - with the bombings in Wales.

0:10:40 > 0:10:43- I wanted to tell him - that there were extremists...

0:10:44 > 0:10:47- ..and militants within Plaid Cymru.

0:10:47 > 0:10:52- That people promoted and supported - law-breaking.

0:10:53 > 0:10:55- That was the '60s in Wales.

0:10:56 > 0:11:00- The party had to be defended - against accusations...

0:11:00 > 0:11:03- ..that it was a violent party.

0:11:04 > 0:11:11- That winning politically - would lead to that sort of action.

0:11:11 > 0:11:15- Some very foolish things - were said at the time.

0:11:15 > 0:11:28- # O bydded i'r hen iaith barhau! #

0:11:28 > 0:11:30- Gwynfor wasn't there...

0:11:30 > 0:11:34- ..but he met the Prince - two days later in Carmarthen.

0:11:34 > 0:11:38- REPORTER: Mr Evans had been - invited to the Investiture...

0:11:38 > 0:11:41- ..but as a nationalist MP, - he decided not to go.

0:11:41 > 0:11:49- He was very sensitive about attacks - from within the party...

0:11:49 > 0:11:53- ..and from those who said he wasn't - enough of a nationalist.

0:11:53 > 0:11:58- He couldn't stand that. - It did bother him.

0:11:58 > 0:12:02- It was also a period of protests - by Cymdeithas yr Iaith...

0:12:03 > 0:12:06- ..and his daughter, Meinir, - was one of many who were arrested.

0:12:07 > 0:12:10- It was a difficult time - for my father...

0:12:10 > 0:12:12- ..because he went to Parliament...

0:12:12 > 0:12:16- ..and they reminded him that - his daughter had broken the law.

0:12:16 > 0:12:18- I'll never forget - the way he supported us.

0:12:19 > 0:12:21- He said he was proud of us...

0:12:21 > 0:12:25- ..and that we needed people - to stand up for Wales.

0:12:25 > 0:12:30- His support was invaluable - to us all.

0:12:30 > 0:12:32- But in his constituency...

0:12:32 > 0:12:35- ..that attitude - didn't appeal to everybody...

0:12:36 > 0:12:40- ..and he lost his seat to - the Labour member, Gwynoro Jones.

0:12:41 > 0:12:44- Someone said, "We thought - we were voting for an MP...

0:12:44 > 0:12:47- .."and it turned out - we voted for the Messiah."

0:12:48 > 0:12:50- That's the sort of feeling he left.

0:12:50 > 0:12:58- He hadn't done enough to show that - he was a good MP for the area.

0:12:58 > 0:13:02- He was more of a leader - for the national organisation...

0:13:02 > 0:13:05- ..than a hard worker - for the constituency.

0:13:05 > 0:13:08- After four years - of parliamentary action...

0:13:08 > 0:13:12- ..Gwynfor was on the sidelines - without a seat, a job...

0:13:12 > 0:13:14- ..or a guaranteed income.

0:13:24 > 0:13:26- 888

0:13:31 > 0:13:35- Losing Carmarthen in 1970, - after winning the seat...

0:13:35 > 0:13:38- ..in dramatic fashion - four years earlier...

0:13:38 > 0:13:41- ..was one of the lowest points - of Gwynfor's career.

0:13:41 > 0:13:43- He returned here to Llangadog...

0:13:43 > 0:13:47- ..but he wasn't about to withdraw - into a political wilderness.

0:13:47 > 0:13:50- Within minutes, - he was planning the next campaign.

0:13:51 > 0:13:53- At the party conference - that summer...

0:13:53 > 0:13:56- ..it was obvious that being idle - wasn't an option.

0:13:56 > 0:14:01- The four years he spent in London, - between 1966 and 1970...

0:14:01 > 0:14:04- ..were so difficult for him.

0:14:04 > 0:14:08- It was hard for him physically - and emotionally.

0:14:08 > 0:14:10- When he lost the seat in 1970...

0:14:10 > 0:14:15- ..although it was a disappointment - for him, it was also a relief.

0:14:15 > 0:14:18- He needed that rest.

0:14:20 > 0:14:25- The first thing he did - was to start writing a book.

0:14:25 > 0:14:27- But he was ready for that...

0:14:28 > 0:14:31- ..and he was ready to do so - in his own home.

0:14:31 > 0:14:35- His book on the history of Wales - was the fruit of that labour.

0:14:37 > 0:14:40- The disappointment - of losing Carmarthen...

0:14:40 > 0:14:43- ..pushed dozens - of Gwynfor's supporters...

0:14:43 > 0:14:45- ..to join Cymdeithas yr Iaith.

0:14:46 > 0:14:48- It offered - a more pro-active path...

0:14:48 > 0:14:50- ..than an ineffective party.

0:14:51 > 0:14:54- Plaid Cymru is excellent - at creating euphoria.

0:14:54 > 0:14:59- For me, it confirms - the revivalist elements.

0:14:59 > 0:15:02- They are excellent - at rallying support...

0:15:02 > 0:15:05- ..but what do you do - after gaining power?

0:15:05 > 0:15:09- It was a complete shambles.

0:15:09 > 0:15:13- Had Plaid Cymru been - a proper political party...

0:15:13 > 0:15:18- ..they would have made sure - that the seat was theirs forever.

0:15:19 > 0:15:23- Things weren't much better - for Gwynfor in his own backyard.

0:15:23 > 0:15:26- At the Dyfed County Council - elections...

0:15:27 > 0:15:30- ..he lost Llangadog for the first - time in almost 25 years.

0:15:30 > 0:15:34- The village and the chapel - were divided.

0:15:34 > 0:15:37- The disappointment - of losing on that day...

0:15:37 > 0:15:40- ..was almost worse - than any disappointment...

0:15:40 > 0:15:43- ..he had experienced - in Parliament...

0:15:44 > 0:15:48- ..because his own people - had conspired against him.

0:15:48 > 0:15:52- The Conservatives and Labour - worked together...

0:15:52 > 0:15:54- ..to get rid of him.

0:15:54 > 0:15:59- The family decided that leaving - Providence Chapel was best.

0:16:01 > 0:16:04- Edward Heath was Prime Minister - at the time.

0:16:04 > 0:16:08- It was the period of the three-day - week and the miners' strike.

0:16:08 > 0:16:11- Another election battle was looming.

0:16:12 > 0:16:16- The two sides' most - ardent supporters were enraged.

0:16:16 > 0:16:18- They were enraged.

0:16:18 > 0:16:20- People from both sides...

0:16:21 > 0:16:24- ..wrote to local papers every week.

0:16:25 > 0:16:27- They would reply to each other.

0:16:28 > 0:16:33- What was unfortunate - was the amount of personal attacks.

0:16:33 > 0:16:36- That he wouldn't live long, - that he had cancer.

0:16:36 > 0:16:40- I was worried that it wasn't - a political battle...

0:16:40 > 0:16:46- ..but undoing the personal battle - against Gwynfor by his enemies.

0:16:46 > 0:16:48- I didn't like him very much, no.

0:16:48 > 0:16:50- Hate?

0:16:50 > 0:16:57- Well, I hated the fact - that they misused the facts.

0:16:59 > 0:17:01- He didn't tell the truth.

0:17:01 > 0:17:05- It wasn't true that there weren't - Labour members...

0:17:05 > 0:17:10- ..or Liberals, or even Tories, - who weren't patriotic...

0:17:10 > 0:17:13- ..who didn't believe - in Wales or Welshness.

0:17:14 > 0:17:17- That wasn't true - and that angered me.

0:17:17 > 0:17:21- To a degree, I did hate him - during that period.

0:17:21 > 0:17:26- February 28th, 1974, - was the day of the vote.

0:17:26 > 0:17:28- It would be a dramatic night.

0:17:28 > 0:17:31- From Gwynedd, excellent news - arrived for Plaid Cymru.

0:17:32 > 0:17:36- Dafydd Elis-Thomas 7,800.

0:17:37 > 0:17:39- LOUD CHEERING

0:17:39 > 0:17:40- Two memorable victories...

0:17:41 > 0:17:44- ..for Dafydd Elis Thomas - and Dafydd Wigley.

0:17:44 > 0:17:46- It was painfully close - in Carmarthen.

0:17:47 > 0:17:51- After a recount, there was just - a handful of votes in it.

0:17:51 > 0:17:56- With three votes, you ask for - ten recounts just to make sure...

0:17:56 > 0:17:58- ..but Gwynfor didn't want us to.

0:17:58 > 0:18:02- By the next day, - when another count was made...

0:18:02 > 0:18:05- ..we were aware of the situation - in Parliament.

0:18:06 > 0:18:09- Gwynfor knew there would be - another election...

0:18:09 > 0:18:13- ..because the winning party - didn't have enough of a majority.

0:18:13 > 0:18:16- That's why he let it go...

0:18:16 > 0:18:19- ..although Gwynoro Jones - had won by three votes.

0:18:23 > 0:18:28- Knowing he didn't have to wait long - for another chance...

0:18:28 > 0:18:31- ..he retreated - to the grounds at Gwernellyn.

0:18:31 > 0:18:33- Between the elections in '74...

0:18:33 > 0:18:36- ..the gardens - were less prosperous than ever.

0:18:36 > 0:18:41- There were genuine fears - of bankruptcy.

0:18:41 > 0:18:45- Everything possible was done - to keep it quiet...

0:18:45 > 0:18:49- ..but after reclaiming the seat, - the business was closed...

0:18:49 > 0:18:52- ..and the debt cleared - by Gwynfor's brother, Alcwyn.

0:18:54 > 0:18:57- He captured Carmarthen again - in the autumn...

0:18:57 > 0:18:59- ..defeating Gwynoro Jones...

0:18:59 > 0:19:04- ..with the biggest vote for - any candidate in Plaid's history.

0:19:05 > 0:19:09- The primary objective - is to get a Parliament for Wales.

0:19:14 > 0:19:18- Gwynfor's second period in - Parliament was more enjoyable.

0:19:18 > 0:19:22- He liked having two enthusiastic - politicians at his side.

0:19:22 > 0:19:25- They were good days - for nationalists...

0:19:25 > 0:19:28- ..as there were eleven members - of the SNP here.

0:19:28 > 0:19:32- As a party leader, he was invited - to official dinners...

0:19:33 > 0:19:36- ..and because the Labour majority - was so small...

0:19:36 > 0:19:38- ..he could have more influence.

0:19:38 > 0:19:43- There was also a keen - devolutionist in the Welsh Office.

0:19:44 > 0:19:46- John Morris' job - was to turn the dream...

0:19:47 > 0:19:49- ..into a parliamentary measure.

0:19:49 > 0:19:52- The homework had been done.

0:19:53 > 0:20:00- Our job, in 1974, - was to turn those ideas into law.

0:20:01 > 0:20:03- But after a painstaking process...

0:20:03 > 0:20:06- ..Government plans - were weaker than expected.

0:20:06 > 0:20:10- Some wanted to reject them - but Gwynfor remained supportive.

0:20:11 > 0:20:16- Gwynfor was always in favour - of the pragmatic response.

0:20:17 > 0:20:18- His line was always...

0:20:18 > 0:20:22- .."We, as a party, can't be seen - to oppose attempts at devolution."

0:20:23 > 0:20:25- There were years of discussions...

0:20:25 > 0:20:28- ..about the need - for an Assembly in Cardiff.

0:20:28 > 0:20:32- But as the discussions - dragged on into the early hours...

0:20:32 > 0:20:37- ..Gwynfor felt, publicly at least, - that it was achievable.

0:20:38 > 0:20:42- The parliamentary battle - had been a long and bitter one...

0:20:42 > 0:20:46- ..when what many saw as the death - knell to devolution occurred.

0:20:46 > 0:20:51- A clause was passed which meant - that 40% of Welsh voters...

0:20:51 > 0:20:55- ..would have to support the - Assembly for it to be accepted.

0:20:55 > 0:20:59- For the devolutionists, - it was starting to look hopeless.

0:20:59 > 0:21:02- And when the referendum arrived...

0:21:02 > 0:21:06- ..Labour rebels were the most - vociferous campaigners.

0:21:06 > 0:21:10- Neil Kinnock and Leo Abse were - determined to bury devolution.

0:21:10 > 0:21:14- ANNOUNCER: Give a massive 'No' - to the Welsh Assembly.

0:21:14 > 0:21:16- Wales was being used as a ploy...

0:21:18 > 0:21:21- ..not what was in - the interests of Wales.

0:21:21 > 0:21:25- It was being used to get - a handful of nationalist votes...

0:21:25 > 0:21:30- ..so that the Callaghan Government - could continue.

0:21:30 > 0:21:34- I found that insulting to Wales, - that it should be used...

0:21:34 > 0:21:39- ..as a pawn in miserable - Westminster politics of that kind.

0:21:40 > 0:21:43- The big disappointment - was seeing the Labour Party...

0:21:43 > 0:21:50- ..allowing their members - to argue against their policy.

0:21:50 > 0:21:54- We had to do the work - on behalf of the Labour Party...

0:21:55 > 0:21:57- ..for devolution for Wales.

0:21:57 > 0:22:01- And Plaid Cymru's role in - the campaign is still criticised.

0:22:01 > 0:22:05- Some are adamant the Labour plans - shouldn't have been promoted.

0:22:06 > 0:22:07- But not Gwynfor.

0:22:07 > 0:22:12- Phil Williams felt that Plaid - Cymru had to keep a distance...

0:22:12 > 0:22:16- ..so that people could see - it was Labour's beast.

0:22:16 > 0:22:18- Gwynfor wanted to be supportive.

0:22:18 > 0:22:21- He had an emotional tie with it...

0:22:21 > 0:22:25- ..and as a result, - we used the wrong tactics...

0:22:25 > 0:22:29- ..which partly explains - the disastrous result.

0:22:29 > 0:22:32- I think the national party - was divided.

0:22:32 > 0:22:35- Like Oliver Twist, - some were asking for more...

0:22:35 > 0:22:38- ..and kept asking for more.

0:22:38 > 0:22:41- Some were also supportive.

0:22:41 > 0:22:47- I think it's true - that the more support they showed...

0:22:47 > 0:22:52- ..the more fierce the opposition - to devolution within Labour became.

0:22:52 > 0:22:56- The result wasn't unexpected.

0:22:59 > 0:23:06- The number of valid votes of 'No' - was 71,157.

0:23:07 > 0:23:11- The devolution cause - didn't just lose in '79...

0:23:11 > 0:23:13- ..it was destroyed.

0:23:14 > 0:23:17- It meant that Gwynfor's - whole campaign...

0:23:18 > 0:23:21- ..from the beginning - of his political career...

0:23:21 > 0:23:23- ..had fallen apart.

0:23:23 > 0:23:25- It was a shock.

0:23:25 > 0:23:31- It was as if he'd been wounded - after that referendum.

0:23:39 > 0:23:42- But within days, there was a chance - to gain political ground...

0:23:43 > 0:23:46- ..by pressurising a fragile - Labour Government.

0:23:46 > 0:23:50- Three Plaid Cymru MPs - went to Aberystwyth to discuss...

0:23:50 > 0:23:54- ..whether to save Labour to secure - compensation for quarry workers.

0:23:55 > 0:24:00- It was something we could ask for, - and Gwynfor was happy...

0:24:01 > 0:24:05- ..with the strategy of trying - to bargain with Labour.

0:24:06 > 0:24:11- He could see how important it was - for Dafydd Elis-Thomas and me...

0:24:11 > 0:24:13- ..and for Plaid's profile...

0:24:13 > 0:24:17- ..when trying to get something - through Parliament...

0:24:17 > 0:24:19- ..that we gave it priority.

0:24:19 > 0:24:22- It was a brave decision to accept...

0:24:22 > 0:24:24- ..where Dafydd El and I - wanted to go.

0:24:28 > 0:24:33- Votes in quarrying areas like - Arfon and Meirion were crucial...

0:24:33 > 0:24:35- ..for the two Dafydds.

0:24:35 > 0:24:40- Gwynfor knew that saving Labour - would be unpopular...

0:24:40 > 0:24:44- ..with his own supporters - in Carmarthenshire.

0:24:44 > 0:24:47- It could mean losing the seat.

0:24:51 > 0:24:55- But the President listened - to both Dafydds and backed down.

0:24:55 > 0:24:59- In was a very wise decision - for the unity of the party...

0:24:59 > 0:25:03- ..but it cost him dearly - in Carmarthen.

0:25:03 > 0:25:08- Labour was defeated, and we had - our first female Prime Minister.

0:25:09 > 0:25:12- Gwynfor lost Carmarthen again...

0:25:12 > 0:25:16- ..and faced the darkest hour - of his life.

0:25:24 > 0:25:26- 888

0:25:33 > 0:25:35- It seems that this period...

0:25:35 > 0:25:39- ..following the referendum failure - and losing his seat again...

0:25:39 > 0:25:42- ..was the lowest point - of his political career.

0:25:42 > 0:25:45- In his late 60s, - Gwynfor began to doubt...

0:25:45 > 0:25:48- ..whether he had achieved - anything of value.

0:25:48 > 0:25:50- Here, in his study in Talar Wen...

0:25:51 > 0:25:54- ..he decided that something - dramatic needed to be done...

0:25:54 > 0:25:57- ..that would shake the nation - to its core...

0:25:58 > 0:26:00- ..and encourage the youth - to take action.

0:26:02 > 0:26:05- It was certainly a blow for him...

0:26:05 > 0:26:12- ..and he feared that it was - a setback for the Welsh cause.

0:26:12 > 0:26:18- He was worried that the Welsh - were slowly dying, spiritually...

0:26:19 > 0:26:25- ..and he wanted to do something - that would rekindle the spirit.

0:26:26 > 0:26:35- At one point he considered - a suicide act, of some sort.

0:26:35 > 0:26:39- He had even decided that - the best time to carry this out...

0:26:39 > 0:26:41- ..would have been March 1st.

0:26:45 > 0:26:47- This is a very sensitive matter.

0:26:47 > 0:26:51- Many people have mentioned - Gwynfor's single-mindedness...

0:26:51 > 0:26:53- ..and that's true.

0:26:53 > 0:27:00- But to what degree was Gwynfor - thinking clearly in 1979?

0:27:00 > 0:27:05- I suspect that his mind - had reached breaking point.

0:27:05 > 0:27:08- Everything that - was important to him...

0:27:09 > 0:27:12- ..the Welsh language, his Wales, - or his idea of Wales...

0:27:12 > 0:27:14- ..had been rejected.

0:27:14 > 0:27:19- Fundamentally, 50 years of work - had been in vain.

0:27:23 > 0:27:26- As Thatcherism demolished - old industries...

0:27:26 > 0:27:30- ..traditional values - were being questioned.

0:27:30 > 0:27:34- Would Plaid Cymru need to adapt - to challenge this new enemy?

0:27:34 > 0:27:38- Gwynfor Evans led Plaid Cymru - for such a long time...

0:27:38 > 0:27:43- ..because his values, - his principles and his religion...

0:27:43 > 0:27:48- ..coincided with the majority - of his party.

0:27:50 > 0:27:53- He represented - the Welsh middle class.

0:27:54 > 0:27:58- I don't think that class, - on its own...

0:27:58 > 0:28:02- ..could secure - the future of the Welsh nation...

0:28:02 > 0:28:08- ..without support - from the Welsh working classes.

0:28:08 > 0:28:11- The succession became an issue - open for debate...

0:28:12 > 0:28:15- ..and Gwynfor's contribution - was sidelined.

0:28:15 > 0:28:18- But salvation came - from an unexpected source.

0:28:18 > 0:28:22- He would be able to carry out - a self-sacrificing act...

0:28:22 > 0:28:25- ..and the Home Secretary, - William Whitelaw...

0:28:25 > 0:28:27- ..gave Gwynfor that opportunity.

0:28:28 > 0:28:31- Once again, the eyes of the world - would be on Llangadog.

0:28:31 > 0:28:38- Whitelaw decided not to go ahead - with the Welsh channel...

0:28:38 > 0:28:41- ..and in a way, - this rescued the situation.

0:28:41 > 0:28:45- He decided to go on hunger strike - over that issue...

0:28:46 > 0:28:51- ..instead of killing himself, - as he had considered doing.

0:28:51 > 0:28:55- If the Welsh-language channel's - supporters were outraged...

0:28:55 > 0:29:00- ..the Welsh Office was stunned - by Willie Whitelaw's announcement.

0:29:01 > 0:29:04- The first reaction was shock...

0:29:04 > 0:29:07- ..because this was totally - unexpected.

0:29:09 > 0:29:13- The next reaction was anger - with the Home Office...

0:29:13 > 0:29:15- ..for doing what it did.

0:29:16 > 0:29:21- I realised this meant trouble - with a capital 'T'.

0:29:22 > 0:29:26- Seeing a party - that had just come into power...

0:29:26 > 0:29:31- ..turning its back on a promise - made before the election...

0:29:31 > 0:29:34- ..made people very angry - and very disappointed...

0:29:34 > 0:29:36- ..but also very determined.

0:29:37 > 0:29:39- As the youth marched...

0:29:39 > 0:29:43- ..members of the older generation - also took action.

0:29:43 > 0:29:48- Meredydd Evans and two others - were prepared to break the law.

0:29:48 > 0:29:49- Gwynfor was informed of this.

0:29:50 > 0:29:53- We wanted his blessing...

0:29:53 > 0:29:59- ..and I told him - what the three of us intended to do.

0:29:59 > 0:30:04- He said, "Yes."

0:30:04 > 0:30:09- "I support what - you're going to do...

0:30:10 > 0:30:16- .."but I intend to do something - more extreme."

0:30:16 > 0:30:19- It was time - to tell his wife and children...

0:30:20 > 0:30:22- ..about that extreme act.

0:30:22 > 0:30:24- His intention was - to starve himself to death.

0:30:25 > 0:30:27- My initial reaction was horror.

0:30:29 > 0:30:34- I couldn't accept - that he would do this...

0:30:35 > 0:30:37- ..or accept losing him - in such a terrible way.

0:30:38 > 0:30:41- I just put it out of my mind - - it wasn't going to happen.

0:30:42 > 0:30:45- Although he was telling us - that it was going to happen.

0:30:45 > 0:30:51- He thought that sacrificing - himself would be a spark...

0:30:51 > 0:30:56- ..to awaken a lifeless nation.

0:30:57 > 0:31:00- He thought a big spark was needed...

0:31:00 > 0:31:05- ..to rekindle the nation's - desire to live.

0:31:05 > 0:31:11- After discussions with the family, - he had to tell Plaid's leaders.

0:31:13 > 0:31:15- Gwynfor told the party's - working group...

0:31:16 > 0:31:17- ..here, at Pantycelyn Hall...

0:31:18 > 0:31:21- ..that he planned - to starve himself to death.

0:31:21 > 0:31:24- Discussions had already - started drawing to a close...

0:31:24 > 0:31:27- ..and some had already left.

0:31:27 > 0:31:31- The Chairman asked, - "Any other business?"

0:31:31 > 0:31:34- I'll never forget the day - when Gwynfor...

0:31:34 > 0:31:38- ..under "Any Other Business", in - his own way, stated his intention.

0:31:38 > 0:31:42- He didn't confer, he stated - his intention to do this.

0:31:42 > 0:31:45- I was gobsmacked.

0:31:45 > 0:31:50- What was worrying - was that if Gwynfor had died...

0:31:50 > 0:31:53- ..what would the response - have been in Wales?

0:31:53 > 0:31:56- We could have seen a backlash.

0:31:56 > 0:32:02- The irony would have been if - people had turned to violence...

0:32:02 > 0:32:06- ..in protest at what happened - to Gwynfor...

0:32:06 > 0:32:08- ..whereas he himself - stood against violence.

0:32:10 > 0:32:15- The idea that someone was willing - to lose his life over this...

0:32:15 > 0:32:18- ..significantly raised the stakes.

0:32:19 > 0:32:25- It took people's breath away - when they heard the news.

0:32:25 > 0:32:28- Every protest became a protest - in support of Gwynfor...

0:32:28 > 0:32:30- ..and against Thatcherism.

0:32:30 > 0:32:33- I remember one protest, - in Rio Tinto...

0:32:33 > 0:32:36- ..when Margaret Thatcher - was in Anglesey.

0:32:36 > 0:32:41- The protestors surrounded - the car and started shaking it.

0:32:41 > 0:32:46- Thatcher was in the car. - It was a point of mass hysteria.

0:32:48 > 0:32:52- A month before the fast, - at rallies across the country...

0:32:53 > 0:32:55- ..the support for Gwynfor - was overwhelming.

0:32:56 > 0:33:00- Even one of his former critics - now applauded him.

0:33:00 > 0:33:06- I've got a letter from - Saunders Lewis that states...

0:33:07 > 0:33:09- ..very clearly...

0:33:09 > 0:33:16- ..that Gwynfor had earned his full - and enthusiastic respect...

0:33:17 > 0:33:22- ..after deciding to fast.

0:33:23 > 0:33:26- It was a sacrifice.

0:33:26 > 0:33:29- This civilisation of ours...

0:33:29 > 0:33:32- ..is worth living for...

0:33:32 > 0:33:35- ..and worth dying for.

0:33:35 > 0:33:37- APPLAUSE

0:33:38 > 0:33:40- That is his strength.

0:33:41 > 0:33:44- That is where he's at his best - and most effective.

0:33:44 > 0:33:46- I supported him 100%.

0:33:46 > 0:33:50- I went around speaking - at meetings with him.

0:33:50 > 0:33:53- As I said, - that's where he's effective.

0:33:53 > 0:33:58- A leader, taking the burden - of the nation on his shoulders.

0:33:58 > 0:34:01- But the leader was also - a husband and a father...

0:34:01 > 0:34:05- ..who was trying to calm - the fears of his family.

0:34:06 > 0:34:10- "My political contribution - has ended," he said.

0:34:10 > 0:34:12- "This is what I can do."

0:34:12 > 0:34:16- It was almost as if he wanted - this to reach its conclusion...

0:34:16 > 0:34:21- ..because he felt that this was - the significant contribution...

0:34:21 > 0:34:23- ..he could make.

0:34:23 > 0:34:27- We said, "What about the family? - We want to keep you."

0:34:27 > 0:34:31- To be honest, - he was almost excited about it.

0:34:31 > 0:34:36- He could almost see his funeral...

0:34:36 > 0:34:39- ..with thousands of people there.

0:34:40 > 0:34:44- He thought this would be - something big.

0:34:45 > 0:34:49- As the protestors continued - their campaign, publicly...

0:34:49 > 0:34:53- ..three representatives - from the Welsh establishment...

0:34:53 > 0:34:55- ..also used their influence.

0:34:55 > 0:34:58- Cledwyn Hughes, - Archbishop G O Williams...

0:34:59 > 0:35:01- ..and Sir Goronwy Daniel...

0:35:01 > 0:35:05- ..hoped the Government - would reconsider before the fast.

0:35:05 > 0:35:09- When three people who are highly - regarded by all parties...

0:35:10 > 0:35:13- ..and all politicians - and the general public...

0:35:13 > 0:35:16- ..come and make a strong - recommendation to you...

0:35:16 > 0:35:18- ..you don't just listen carefully.

0:35:19 > 0:35:20- It's much easier to say...

0:35:20 > 0:35:24- .."They came, we've listened - and we are going to give way"...

0:35:24 > 0:35:29- ..than it is to someone who is - threatening to starve to death.

0:35:29 > 0:35:34- In a sense, they let Gwynfor - off the hook, and us off the hook.

0:35:34 > 0:35:35- When it was announced...

0:35:36 > 0:35:39- ..that there would be - a Welsh-language channel...

0:35:39 > 0:35:42- ..Gwynfor seemed reluctant - to accept his victory.

0:35:43 > 0:35:45- His wife, Rhiannon, was emotional.

0:35:47 > 0:35:49- She was in tears...

0:35:50 > 0:35:55- ..begging me to persuade Gwynfor - to end the fast.

0:35:56 > 0:36:00- However, the announcement was made - and I was delighted...

0:36:00 > 0:36:02- ..but Gwynfor wasn't.

0:36:04 > 0:36:06- He wanted more details.

0:36:06 > 0:36:09- How much funding - would the channel get?

0:36:09 > 0:36:14- "Good grief, Gwynfor," I said, - "leave that to others.

0:36:14 > 0:36:17- "Today is your day."

0:36:18 > 0:36:20- But as an astute politician...

0:36:20 > 0:36:23- ..on the crest - of a nationalistic wave...

0:36:23 > 0:36:28- ..Gwynfor suspected the victory - may have come too early.

0:36:29 > 0:36:33- I saw a side to Gwynfor - I wasn't familiar with.

0:36:33 > 0:36:36- I had known him for 20 years.

0:36:36 > 0:36:39- Almost, selfishness...

0:36:40 > 0:36:44- ..but that's unfair because the - essence of single-mindedness...

0:36:45 > 0:36:50- ..is a total focus - on the horizon he has set.

0:36:51 > 0:36:55- We have won the biggest victory - for the Welsh language...

0:36:55 > 0:36:58- ..not only this century - but for centuries.

0:36:59 > 0:37:02- That is what brought it - to the tipping point...

0:37:02 > 0:37:04- ..and made it happen.

0:37:04 > 0:37:08- Gwynfor's contribution - was vital to that.

0:37:08 > 0:37:11- People said the "conshies" - were cowardly...

0:37:12 > 0:37:15- ..but this showed - that it wasn't cowardice.

0:37:15 > 0:37:19- He was prepared to die for Wales - but not to kill.

0:37:19 > 0:37:24- I think it was a mistake - and out of character for Gwynfor...

0:37:24 > 0:37:26- ..to make a threat of that nature.

0:37:27 > 0:37:28- It wasn't appropriate...

0:37:28 > 0:37:32- ..for an honourable President - of a political party...

0:37:32 > 0:37:34- ..to use those tactics.

0:37:34 > 0:37:37- In my opinion, a hunger strike - is morally unacceptable.

0:37:38 > 0:37:44- It's the abuse of an individual's - life, by that individual.

0:37:44 > 0:37:48- There's something pathological - about it, in my opinion.

0:37:48 > 0:37:51- I'm not saying that was true - of Gwynfor...

0:37:51 > 0:37:54- ..but I would never justify - that path.

0:37:55 > 0:37:59- Whatever the arguments - for and against what he did...

0:37:59 > 0:38:03- ..establishing S4C was a big moment - in Gwynfor's history...

0:38:03 > 0:38:06- ..and effectively ended - his political career.

0:38:07 > 0:38:10- He did try once more - in Carmarthen...

0:38:11 > 0:38:14- ..but he had already yielded - the leadership.

0:38:14 > 0:38:16- And as Gwynfor stepped aside...

0:38:16 > 0:38:19- ..the battle for the inheritance - started.

0:38:19 > 0:38:23- No matter who won, - Plaid Cymru was going to change.

0:38:37 > 0:38:40- A year after the campaign - for the channel...

0:38:40 > 0:38:42- ..Gwynfor's time at the helm - was over.

0:38:43 > 0:38:46- A new generation was keen - to take the reins.

0:38:46 > 0:38:50- Naturally, Gwynfor was concerned - about the party's future.

0:38:50 > 0:38:55- To a degree, he wanted to make sure - his legacy continued.

0:38:55 > 0:38:58- He accepted it was time - for change...

0:38:58 > 0:38:59- ..with a new generation.

0:39:00 > 0:39:02- Gwynfor had been President - for 36 years...

0:39:02 > 0:39:06- ..so the party didn't remember - anyone else as President.

0:39:06 > 0:39:10- One thing we had to establish - from the beginning...

0:39:10 > 0:39:14- ..was that we couldn't return - to Gwynfor's style of leadership...

0:39:15 > 0:39:21- ..where so much relied - on the work of an individual.

0:39:21 > 0:39:25- More democratic structures - were used to govern Plaid Cymru...

0:39:25 > 0:39:29- ..in the period afterwards - than existed previously.

0:39:30 > 0:39:34- It was a fight for the presidency - and a philosophical battle...

0:39:34 > 0:39:39- ..but which of the two Dafydds - was the former leader's favourite?

0:39:39 > 0:39:41- Of the two rising stars...

0:39:42 > 0:39:45- ..many thought he felt closer - to Dafydd Elis-Thomas...

0:39:45 > 0:39:47- ..than Dafydd Wigley.

0:39:47 > 0:39:51- But politically, - it was a relief for Gwynfor...

0:39:51 > 0:39:56- ..to see Dafydd Wigley taking - the leadership in the first term.

0:39:58 > 0:40:03- ANNOUNCER: Dafydd Wigley, 273.

0:40:03 > 0:40:05- APPLAUSE

0:40:12 > 0:40:15- Finally, the party - had a new President...

0:40:16 > 0:40:19- ..but Gwynfor didn't find it easy - to step aside.

0:40:20 > 0:40:22- He changed his mind...

0:40:22 > 0:40:25- ..deciding to have one more go - at capturing Carmarthen.

0:40:25 > 0:40:29- He didn't want to stand again - in Carmarthenshire...

0:40:29 > 0:40:32- ..and he had said that to me...

0:40:32 > 0:40:38- ..so I had asked around, - searching for another candidate.

0:40:38 > 0:40:41- That message got back to Gwynfor.

0:40:41 > 0:40:46- Obviously, his decision wasn't - as final as I had thought...

0:40:46 > 0:40:48- ..and he was very disappointed.

0:40:48 > 0:40:50- I remember a phone call.

0:40:50 > 0:40:54- He said, "I might look - for another constituency, then."

0:40:54 > 0:40:59- That hurt because I hadn't realised - he had reconsidered.

0:41:00 > 0:41:06- He wasn't healthy and he found - canvassing was a burden...

0:41:06 > 0:41:09- ..travelling around Carmarthenshire.

0:41:09 > 0:41:13- I felt it was the wrong decision - to stand.

0:41:14 > 0:41:17- It was a huge disappointment - for him when he lost.

0:41:18 > 0:41:22- Everybody predicted - he was going to win.

0:41:23 > 0:41:27- People felt, because of S4C, - that he would win.

0:41:28 > 0:41:32- What his decision to stand showed...

0:41:34 > 0:41:37- ..was his desire to keep going...

0:41:38 > 0:41:43- ..at a time when one would expect - him to turn his back.

0:41:44 > 0:41:47- But he wasn't - going to lay down arms...

0:41:48 > 0:41:51- ..or loosen his grip.

0:41:51 > 0:41:56- He wanted to keep going - until the very end.

0:41:59 > 0:42:02- The salt in the wound - of losing Carmarthen...

0:42:03 > 0:42:05- ..was finishing third, - behind the Tory.

0:42:06 > 0:42:09- Like the history - of many politicians...

0:42:09 > 0:42:11- ..the final chapter was a sad one.

0:42:14 > 0:42:18- Gwynfor escaped - to the tranquil surroundings...

0:42:19 > 0:42:21- ..at the foot of Cadair Idris.

0:42:21 > 0:42:24- The strain of the last four years - had taken its toll.

0:42:25 > 0:42:28- He couldn't sleep, he didn't - want to see a living soul...

0:42:28 > 0:42:32- ..and he couldn't understand - why his stance over S4C...

0:42:33 > 0:42:35- ..hadn't given him - an electoral lift.

0:42:36 > 0:42:39- The political disappointment - hit him hard...

0:42:39 > 0:42:41- ..and he could get very low.

0:42:41 > 0:42:45- He wouldn't show us that - he could suffer from depression.

0:42:45 > 0:42:48- They stayed in Meirionydd...

0:42:48 > 0:42:52- ..because he often felt that - the area around Dolgellau...

0:42:52 > 0:42:58- ..would allow him - to recharge his batteries...

0:42:58 > 0:43:02- ..and to find inspiration - to continue his work.

0:43:02 > 0:43:06- Retreating to Meirionydd - soothed his soul.

0:43:06 > 0:43:10- Later, they decided to leave - Llangadog...

0:43:10 > 0:43:13- ..but not to go to Dolgellau.

0:43:13 > 0:43:15- When they left Llangadog...

0:43:15 > 0:43:19- ..the party organised a dinner - to say goodbye...

0:43:19 > 0:43:24- ..and there were tears in my - father's eyes when he was leaving.

0:43:24 > 0:43:28- My mother felt the chapel and - some people in the village...

0:43:28 > 0:43:31- ..had worked against my father.

0:43:32 > 0:43:35- I think she would have liked - to move to Meirionydd...

0:43:36 > 0:43:40- ..so this end of the county - may have been a compromise.

0:43:42 > 0:43:45- They moved to Pencarreg, - near Lampeter...

0:43:45 > 0:43:47- ..but Rhiannon found out...

0:43:47 > 0:43:50- ..that she was suffering - from Parkinson's Disease.

0:43:50 > 0:43:54- It was Gwynfor's turn to look - after the one who'd supported him.

0:43:55 > 0:43:57- They had become one.

0:43:57 > 0:43:59- They lived for each other.

0:43:59 > 0:44:01- Mam had always lived...

0:44:02 > 0:44:06- ..to make sure my father - could carry out his work.

0:44:06 > 0:44:10- That was her responsibility, - as she saw it.

0:44:11 > 0:44:16- My father understood that, - acknowledged that...

0:44:16 > 0:44:18- ..and appreciated that.

0:44:19 > 0:44:23- I remember my father saying - as a joke...

0:44:23 > 0:44:28- ..that she decided which car to buy, - which house to live in...

0:44:28 > 0:44:31- ..what food to eat, - and what clothes to wear.

0:44:32 > 0:44:35- And he decided - the family's views on Vietnam...

0:44:35 > 0:44:36- ..and that sort of thing.

0:44:37 > 0:44:39- They shared things like that - between them...

0:44:40 > 0:44:42- ..and there was some truth in it.

0:44:42 > 0:44:44- They were kindred spirits.

0:44:44 > 0:44:49- She was a nationalist - before my father.

0:44:50 > 0:44:55- She wasn't sucked into his world. - She was already there.

0:44:56 > 0:45:01- Tolstoy's wife said, - "Do you know what a martyr is?

0:45:01 > 0:45:04- "A martyr is someone - who lives with a saint."

0:45:04 > 0:45:07- That's what she was like.

0:45:07 > 0:45:10- She was a martyr on his altar.

0:45:10 > 0:45:12- After periods away from home...

0:45:12 > 0:45:17- ..he liked nothing better than - visits from his grandchildren.

0:45:17 > 0:45:20- But there was a welcome - and advice for politicians...

0:45:21 > 0:45:23- ..who regularly called by.

0:45:25 > 0:45:29- Gwynfor was someone - we looked to as a leader...

0:45:30 > 0:45:33- ..even when he had stepped down - as President.

0:45:33 > 0:45:35- At the end of the '80s...

0:45:35 > 0:45:41- ..when we wondered whether the - party had done enough for Wales...

0:45:41 > 0:45:44- ..and the pressure was on me - to change direction.

0:45:45 > 0:45:47- I was head-hunted for jobs...

0:45:47 > 0:45:50- ..in the industrial - and governmental worlds.

0:45:50 > 0:45:53- I went to Gwynfor's home...

0:45:53 > 0:45:56- ..to tell him - that I was considering leaving.

0:45:56 > 0:45:59- He didn't try to put - unfair pressure on me...

0:45:59 > 0:46:02- ..but the disappointment - in his eyes was obvious.

0:46:02 > 0:46:05- When I drove my car - away from that meeting...

0:46:05 > 0:46:07- ..I knew I had to carry on.

0:46:10 > 0:46:11- Good morning.

0:46:13 > 0:46:16- And it is a very good morning - in Wales.

0:46:18 > 0:46:21- Gwynfor lived - to see another referendum...

0:46:21 > 0:46:24- ..and to see Wales - getting its own Assembly.

0:46:25 > 0:46:30- This victory means we'll have - a national institution...

0:46:30 > 0:46:36- ..elected by the Welsh people, - for the first time in our history.

0:46:36 > 0:46:40- The Assembly was achieved - through the single-mindedness...

0:46:40 > 0:46:46- ..determination and reliability - of Plaid Cymru...

0:46:46 > 0:46:50- ..and the existence - of a radical Labour Party...

0:46:50 > 0:46:55- ..that was willing to implement - it as a lawful institution.

0:46:56 > 0:46:58- It's a combination - of the two things.

0:46:58 > 0:47:02- If it wasn't for Gwynfor's - determination...

0:47:02 > 0:47:05- ..the national party - would have disappeared...

0:47:05 > 0:47:09- ..or would have become so powerless - it wouldn't count in that equation.

0:47:10 > 0:47:15- In his 90s, one difficult question - still bothered him...

0:47:15 > 0:47:19- ..having given a life's service - to his country and language.

0:47:20 > 0:47:22- There wasn't much in his life...

0:47:22 > 0:47:28- ..but the thought that he was - the leader who had succeeded...

0:47:28 > 0:47:30- ..helped to keep him going.

0:47:30 > 0:47:34- He wanted confirmation of that - almost every time I saw him.

0:47:34 > 0:47:37- I would tell him - that he had succeeded...

0:47:37 > 0:47:40- ..and I think he did feel that...

0:47:40 > 0:47:44- ..but he wanted confirmation - that others agreed.

0:47:44 > 0:47:48- # Gwlad, Gwlad

0:47:48 > 0:47:55- # Pleidiol wyf i'm gwlad. #

0:47:55 > 0:47:58- I've no doubt - that Gwynfor Evans...

0:47:59 > 0:48:02- ..was the leading Welsh patriot - of the 20th Century...

0:48:02 > 0:48:04- ..by a long way.

0:48:04 > 0:48:08- He raised his party - from being some sort of sect...

0:48:08 > 0:48:11- ..into a proper political party.

0:48:12 > 0:48:15- The climax of that work...

0:48:15 > 0:48:21- ..was astonishing victories - in the Assembly's first elections.

0:48:22 > 0:48:25- It was Gwynfor's crowning moment...

0:48:25 > 0:48:29- ..and a tribute to his career.

0:48:29 > 0:48:36- I heard that he watched the - service at Llandaff Cathedral...

0:48:36 > 0:48:41- ..and when Lewis Valentine's hymn, - 'Dros Gymru'n Gwlad' was sung...

0:48:41 > 0:48:44- ..he was in floods of tears - and I'm not surprised.

0:48:51 > 0:48:55- Here, at Carn Goch - a Celtic fort - above the Tywi Valley...

0:48:55 > 0:48:58- ..is where Gwynfor Evans' ashes - were scattered.

0:48:58 > 0:49:01- As the Carmarthenshire - breeze carried the remains...

0:49:02 > 0:49:04- ..how permanent - was his contribution?

0:49:04 > 0:49:07- Was Gwynfor the leading Welshman - of his time?

0:49:07 > 0:49:12- How different is Wales today - due to his achievements?

0:49:12 > 0:49:14- The answers will vary...

0:49:14 > 0:49:18- ..but the fact that the questions - are worth considering...

0:49:18 > 0:49:22- ..prove that the journey, - begun in Barry in 1912...

0:49:22 > 0:49:24- ..was astonishing.

0:49:24 > 0:49:26- He changed the pattern himself.

0:49:27 > 0:49:32- The influence of one person - changed the path of a nation.

0:49:32 > 0:49:36- Obviously, more than one person - helped move that forward...

0:49:36 > 0:49:40- ..but without Gwynfor, I doubt - we could have moved forward...

0:49:40 > 0:49:43- ..in the second half - of the 20th Century.

0:49:43 > 0:49:46- If you look at the growth - of Plaid Cymru...

0:49:46 > 0:49:52- ..in terms of membership, - in local and county councillors.

0:49:52 > 0:49:54- It happened under the two Dafydds.

0:49:55 > 0:50:01- They brought Plaid Cymru forward - to become the party for Wales.

0:50:02 > 0:50:08- It was a limited and narrow party - under Gwynfor.

0:50:08 > 0:50:11- Where would his place be in history?

0:50:13 > 0:50:17- If it was a detailed book - and a big book...

0:50:17 > 0:50:20- ..he would probably get a footnote.

0:50:24 > 0:50:27- There are two Gwynfors.

0:50:27 > 0:50:32- On the one hand, - the noble and upright Gwynfor...

0:50:32 > 0:50:37- ..and on the other, the - self-centred, Messianic figure...

0:50:37 > 0:50:40- ..and Gwynfor, the weak figure - who made mistakes.

0:50:41 > 0:50:44- In other words, - a man of flesh and blood.

0:50:44 > 0:50:47- That's how we should - remember Gwynfor.

0:50:51 > 0:50:55- There are interesting differences - between the Wales we have...

0:50:55 > 0:50:57- ..and the Wales he desired.

0:50:57 > 0:51:00- We have a fledgling parliament...

0:51:00 > 0:51:03- ..and Plaid Cymru, - despite its problems...

0:51:03 > 0:51:07- ..is stronger than ever - in terms of resources...

0:51:07 > 0:51:09- ..and elected members and so on.

0:51:09 > 0:51:13- It is a story of success...

0:51:14 > 0:51:17- ..under extremely difficult - circumstances.

0:51:21 > 0:51:26- He felt that he had only just - managed to succeed.

0:51:26 > 0:51:32- That he just managed to get the - boulder to the top of the hill...

0:51:32 > 0:51:34- ..but he felt he could say...

0:51:34 > 0:51:38- ..that he had, more or less, - achieved what he wanted.

0:52:08 > 0:52:11- Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd.