0:00:01 > 0:00:03This is BBC Two.
0:00:03 > 0:00:04Faster!
0:00:04 > 0:00:05I've got a story to tell you.
0:00:05 > 0:00:06What happened?
0:00:06 > 0:00:08# Muh-na, muh-na, do-do-do-do-do! #
0:00:08 > 0:00:10Gissa job.
0:00:10 > 0:00:11My darling John.
0:00:11 > 0:00:13I miss him, but I know I shouldn't do this.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15Hello and welcome to this week's Whistle Test.
0:00:17 > 0:00:22BBC Two hit the air on the 20th of April 1964.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24This anniversary series tells the stories
0:00:24 > 0:00:26of some of the programmes that shaped it.
0:00:27 > 0:00:32This programme contains some strong language
0:00:34 > 0:00:39MUSIC: "Another Green World" by Brian Eno
0:00:40 > 0:00:43'Arena came about as a sort of alternative arts programme.'
0:00:43 > 0:00:46It was a programme that could put popular culture and high culture
0:00:46 > 0:00:49side by side so that you didn't really quite know
0:00:49 > 0:00:52what you were going to get one week to the next.
0:00:52 > 0:00:56If I had to compress Arena's signature style
0:00:56 > 0:00:59into a short sentence -
0:00:59 > 0:01:03an everyday household object seen from an unusual angle.
0:01:03 > 0:01:04'Twas November 1970.
0:01:04 > 0:01:07We were expecting in our family.
0:01:07 > 0:01:10We were not going to have a he or she,
0:01:10 > 0:01:12but a brand new 1600E.
0:01:12 > 0:01:16She's cherished and cared for, like my old dear,
0:01:16 > 0:01:18I hope they are with me for many a year.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22She cost £1,200 before inflation was rife -
0:01:22 > 0:01:24that was for the car, not for the wife.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28The programmes people remember, of course, are Ford Cortina and My Way,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31the sort of wayward ones, but there were many more traditional ones.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34# I can make you mine
0:01:34 > 0:01:37# Taste your lips of wine
0:01:37 > 0:01:41# Any time, night or day... #
0:01:43 > 0:01:45There's a whole lot of things I'm supposed to have said
0:01:45 > 0:01:48that really come from me not hearing very well
0:01:48 > 0:01:49or not being as good
0:01:49 > 0:01:52- a linguist as I pretend to be! - HE CHUCKLES
0:01:53 > 0:01:58Law & Order was a hard-hitting drama by new writer GF Newman.
0:01:59 > 0:02:02Shown in four parts, it was to shatter many of society's illusions
0:02:02 > 0:02:06about the police and every aspect of the criminal justice system.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12The assumption was that,
0:02:12 > 0:02:18yes, there are occasionally examples of a corrupt detective,
0:02:18 > 0:02:21erm, and we root them out.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23Listen, you wicked bastard,
0:02:23 > 0:02:25you can whine for your brief and about your rights
0:02:25 > 0:02:27but it won't do you any good.
0:02:27 > 0:02:29You've got information we want.
0:02:29 > 0:02:33So you'll be here assisting us with our enquiries as long as it takes.
0:02:33 > 0:02:34'What we did with Law & Order'
0:02:34 > 0:02:41was make the assumption that the corruption was endemic.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45- It costs me nothing sitting here, does it?- No, you're right.
0:02:45 > 0:02:47- Stand up then! - You bastard, let go!
0:02:47 > 0:02:49MAN GROANS
0:02:49 > 0:02:50'It looked like a drama doc,
0:02:50 > 0:02:53'as though they were following a copper round.'
0:02:53 > 0:02:56- Excuse me, sir, Mr Redfern's on the phone.- Fine.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58There's me taking brown manila envelopes with money in 'em,
0:02:58 > 0:03:02fitting people up and being a real horrible, mm, you can imagine.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05POLICE SHOUT ORDERS
0:03:05 > 0:03:09'We found the firm that made the furniture for the prisons
0:03:09 > 0:03:12'and asked them to give us that furniture.'
0:03:13 > 0:03:14Tortured, mate?
0:03:14 > 0:03:17You probably killed that officer you just hit!
0:03:17 > 0:03:19- Want to be topped?! - No, he's too good for that.
0:03:19 > 0:03:21And then we had a phone call from them
0:03:21 > 0:03:24to say that they couldn't supply us
0:03:24 > 0:03:27because the Home Office had got wind of this film
0:03:27 > 0:03:32and had threatened to withdraw their contract.
0:03:32 > 0:03:34PRISONER GROANS AND SCREAMS
0:03:34 > 0:03:36Hold him, stupid!
0:03:36 > 0:03:38I'll kill you!
0:03:38 > 0:03:42Well, we thought there'd be a little bit of a reaction, and there was.
0:03:42 > 0:03:44SIRENS
0:03:48 > 0:03:49Don't panic!
0:03:49 > 0:03:51What else is there to do?!
0:03:51 > 0:03:54HE GASPS AND WAILS
0:03:54 > 0:03:57Shh! We will call O'Reilly!
0:03:57 > 0:04:00He made this mess, he can come and clear it up!
0:04:00 > 0:04:01WAILING CONTINUES
0:04:01 > 0:04:04Oh, just pull yourself together!
0:04:04 > 0:04:05Come on!
0:04:09 > 0:04:10Again!
0:04:11 > 0:04:13Harder!
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Right, I'll call O'Reilly!
0:04:18 > 0:04:21# Empire Road... #
0:04:21 > 0:04:25Empire Road was a drama series with humour
0:04:25 > 0:04:31about a Caribbean family in Handsworth in Birmingham.
0:04:36 > 0:04:41'The main character, played by Norman Beaton, was Everton Bennett.'
0:04:41 > 0:04:43He was looked up to by people in the street,
0:04:43 > 0:04:45in the area where they lived,
0:04:45 > 0:04:48'as someone they could turn to at times
0:04:48 > 0:04:51'and bring their problems to.'
0:04:51 > 0:04:54I'm not asking for no free gift.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56I'll pay you back every penny.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00But help me, Mr Bennett!
0:05:00 > 0:05:02Help me, man!
0:05:02 > 0:05:03'The black audience'
0:05:03 > 0:05:05were actually saying,
0:05:05 > 0:05:09"There are people like us on television."
0:05:09 > 0:05:11MUSIC AND LAUGHTER
0:05:11 > 0:05:15'And people can remember when their parents used to say to them,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18'"Come and sit down and watch this. We're on TV."'
0:05:20 > 0:05:24You had things that you had to deal with back then.
0:05:24 > 0:05:28'I had a character who had Rasta locks.'
0:05:28 > 0:05:31Help us, sir. Any job?
0:05:31 > 0:05:33You could really help us if you wanted to.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37'BBC, Rasta locks - they looked so odd'
0:05:37 > 0:05:41that the next time you saw them they'd had a haircut.
0:05:41 > 0:05:43- I like your, your head. - Yes, thank you, Walter.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Can't stop, Mum, I'll see you later, right?
0:05:46 > 0:05:48Empire Road was part of something
0:05:48 > 0:05:53that I perhaps will never quite know again
0:05:53 > 0:05:57because it was of its time but also the first of its time.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02CHEERING
0:06:07 > 0:06:10'It was absolutely clear to me that, erm,'
0:06:10 > 0:06:13the natural world was the obvious thing to do.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20'I mean, I thought it was just the most thrilling thing,
0:06:20 > 0:06:22'but I couldn't possibly do it and be an administrator.
0:06:22 > 0:06:23'I was just terrified
0:06:23 > 0:06:27'someone was going to put out this idea before I did.
0:06:27 > 0:06:29'But I just made it in time.'
0:06:30 > 0:06:33Slow motion shows how expert it is in keeping its bill
0:06:33 > 0:06:36perfectly steady in relation to the blossom,
0:06:36 > 0:06:40even while its body moves in all directions.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43When specimens of this creature first reached Europe,
0:06:43 > 0:06:45people refused to believe their eyes.
0:06:46 > 0:06:49They said it was a hoax.
0:06:49 > 0:06:52Bits and pieces of different creatures
0:06:52 > 0:06:54rather crudely sewn together.
0:06:54 > 0:06:57But it's no hoax. It's a platypus.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03The gorilla family spends its day gently grazing,
0:07:03 > 0:07:05and there's plenty of time for play.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Sometimes they even allow others to join in.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20I've got a story to tell you, it's all about spies.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23With the intrigue of the Cold War
0:07:23 > 0:07:25still fuelling the nation's imagination,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29BBC Two decided to dramatise John Le Carre's classic novel
0:07:29 > 0:07:31Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36Centred around the search for a Secret Service traitor,
0:07:36 > 0:07:39the series' success depended on the casting of the central figure,
0:07:39 > 0:07:41spy catcher George Smiley.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45'Alec Guinness was always the person
0:07:45 > 0:07:47'that we all wanted to play George Smiley.'
0:07:47 > 0:07:50And none of us really thought,
0:07:50 > 0:07:53because he'd never done television, that he would agree.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56George, I've been sent to deliver you.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58'Oddly enough, it was all very simple
0:07:58 > 0:08:02'because it was a character that he'd always wanted to play.'
0:08:02 > 0:08:04I've been reviewing my situation.
0:08:04 > 0:08:09After a lifetime of living by my wits and on my memory,
0:08:09 > 0:08:13I shall give myself up full-time to the profession of forgetting.
0:08:13 > 0:08:16'If you get an actor like Alec Guinness,'
0:08:16 > 0:08:18you're free to go to almost anybody.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22Erm, and we did assemble a fantastic cast.
0:08:22 > 0:08:23Poor George.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27Life's such a puzzle to you, isn't it?
0:08:27 > 0:08:31City Removers here, I believe you wanted an estimate.
0:08:31 > 0:08:33So who's pulling the strings for Percy Puppet?
0:08:33 > 0:08:36Bad boys like Ricki.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40Cultural attache? Balls! Army written all over him.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42Heap bad story.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44Bad for our big chief.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49'I had been asked to consider the role of Bill Haydon, the traitor.'
0:08:50 > 0:08:54It was probably, second to Smiley himself, the best part.
0:08:54 > 0:08:56You know, the baddies always are.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04We were able to approach incredible actors and actresses
0:09:04 > 0:09:06for really very small things.
0:09:06 > 0:09:11I remember very, very clearly the telephone call I got from my agent,
0:09:11 > 0:09:15erm, saying, "Patrick, they want you to appear in Tinker, Tailor.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17"However, here's the problem -
0:09:17 > 0:09:21"the character you're going to play is only in one scene...
0:09:21 > 0:09:23"and he doesn't speak, at all."
0:09:23 > 0:09:26Could we take those things off his hands?
0:09:26 > 0:09:28'"Here's the bonus side to it.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31"There's only one other actor in the scene with you,
0:09:31 > 0:09:33"and it's Sir Alec Guinness."
0:09:33 > 0:09:35I'm not offering you wealth,
0:09:35 > 0:09:38or smart women, or your choice of fast cars.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41I know you haven't any use for those things.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43'Very complicated dialogue to do.'
0:09:43 > 0:09:47I wouldn't admit that I didn't understand a lot of it.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Obviously, we needed to be certain Control would rise to the bait.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55We had to spell it out that he'd got to send a big gun
0:09:55 > 0:09:56to make the story stick.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00And someone who spoke Czech, of course.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03It had to be a man who was Old Circus.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05To bring the temple down a bit.
0:10:05 > 0:10:06Yes, I see the logic of that.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10I said to him, "Alec, I really must confess
0:10:10 > 0:10:12"I find it very difficult to understand,"
0:10:12 > 0:10:14whereupon there was a general absolute chorus
0:10:14 > 0:10:16from all my colleagues, from Jason onwards and outwards,
0:10:16 > 0:10:18saying, "Oh, we don't understand it, either!"
0:10:18 > 0:10:20And Alec said very quietly,
0:10:20 > 0:10:23"I can see I'm going to have to tell you what it's all about."
0:10:23 > 0:10:25And he did!
0:10:32 > 0:10:35Following a brief local news item
0:10:35 > 0:10:37about Bolton steeplejack Fred Dibnah,
0:10:37 > 0:10:39BBC Two gave him his own programme
0:10:39 > 0:10:42which led on to a highly successful series
0:10:42 > 0:10:44of observational documentaries.
0:10:45 > 0:10:47It's going! Going!
0:10:48 > 0:10:50HORN HONKS
0:11:10 > 0:11:11Did you like that?
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Good evening and welcome, at last, to Newsnight.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27When it began, we didn't know it was going to go on for more than a week.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31On the political front at home, assertions from Liberals and Labour
0:11:31 > 0:11:34that there are alternatives to the government's economic policies.
0:11:34 > 0:11:35My first recollection of Newsnight is
0:11:35 > 0:11:39when it was presented by John Tusa and Peter Snow and Donald MacCormick,
0:11:39 > 0:11:41and, frankly, it was a relief to find a channel
0:11:41 > 0:11:43where serious current affairs wasn't an embarrassment.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45There was less difference between Labour Social Democrats
0:11:45 > 0:11:48and Liberals than between them and the National Executive.
0:11:48 > 0:11:50We'll see what they have to say.
0:11:50 > 0:11:52Why not, since it exists and since it surely can do some good
0:11:52 > 0:11:56in terms of amending government legislation, make the best of it?
0:11:56 > 0:11:59There was this curious debate going on, which now seems ridiculous
0:11:59 > 0:12:03to us all, that news and current affairs are somehow separate things.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05Of course there is discussion, of course there is news.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07But putting them together in the same programme
0:12:07 > 0:12:10was something that Newsnight was challenged to do.
0:12:11 > 0:12:14You really think that the RAF and perhaps the Navy, as well,
0:12:14 > 0:12:17could bomb airfields in Argentina itself
0:12:17 > 0:12:19without losing a great many planes?
0:12:19 > 0:12:22They may lose planes, one hopes they won't lose a great many.
0:12:22 > 0:12:23But this is war.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27The Falklands fell just at the beginning of a period
0:12:27 > 0:12:29when Newsnight, this upstart new programme
0:12:29 > 0:12:33looking at the issues of the day in depth, had come on the air.
0:12:33 > 0:12:35And it must have been infuriating
0:12:35 > 0:12:38for government to have its day-to-day accounts
0:12:38 > 0:12:40of what was happening in the Falklands
0:12:40 > 0:12:43questioned and looked at analytically
0:12:43 > 0:12:45by a programme that was trying to be objective.
0:12:45 > 0:12:50How, then, can you publicly endorse a country which bans
0:12:50 > 0:12:55political parties, bans trade unions and uses institutional torture?
0:12:55 > 0:12:58Do I sometimes set out to wrong-foot people? Yes.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02And the reason for that, I think, can be justified.
0:13:02 > 0:13:05Well, you know what the accusation is. They say you're a poodle.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08I just try to ask the questions that the average,
0:13:08 > 0:13:11reasonably intelligent viewer would like to see asked
0:13:11 > 0:13:17and, by and large, I think you should ask it straight and direct.
0:13:17 > 0:13:21The truth of the matter is that Mr Marriott was not suspended.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24- Did you threaten to overrule him? - I did not overrule Derek Lewis.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26- Did you threaten to overrule him? - I took advice.
0:13:26 > 0:13:29There is nothing more maddening,
0:13:29 > 0:13:33not just for me as an interviewer, but for the viewer,
0:13:33 > 0:13:35than to have someone not answering a question.
0:13:35 > 0:13:39I really profoundly believe that the...
0:13:39 > 0:13:42the healthy democracy is the well-informed democracy,
0:13:42 > 0:13:46and that's how I justify what we do.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55The only way to understand the press
0:13:55 > 0:13:58is to remember that they pander to their readers' prejudices.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02Don't tell me about the press. I know exactly who reads the papers.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05The Daily Mirror is read by people who think they run the country.
0:14:05 > 0:14:09The Guardian is read by people who think they ought to run the country.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12The Times is read by the people who actually do run the country.
0:14:12 > 0:14:16The Daily Mail is read by the wives of the people who run the country.
0:14:16 > 0:14:19The Financial Times is read by people who own the country.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21The Morning Star is read by people
0:14:21 > 0:14:24who think the country ought to be run by another country.
0:14:25 > 0:14:29And the Daily Telegraph is read by people who think it is.
0:14:29 > 0:14:30LAUGHTER
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Prime Minister, what about the people who read the Sun?
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Sun readers don't care who runs the country,
0:14:37 > 0:14:39as long as she's got big tits.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42Conceived as the replacement for Man Alive,
0:14:42 > 0:14:4740 Minutes was the place where no subject was off-limits.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50In its 13-year run, the series covered subjects
0:14:50 > 0:14:53as diverse as battered husbands and prize-winning leeks.
0:15:01 > 0:15:08Grandstand had a telephone call from a noisy, posh young man,
0:15:08 > 0:15:11saying "My friends and I are going fishing next weekend.
0:15:11 > 0:15:13"We're a noisy bunch. Would you like to film us?"
0:15:13 > 0:15:16Grandstand said, "We don't do documentaries,
0:15:16 > 0:15:17"you'd better talk to 40 Minutes.
0:15:17 > 0:15:19I believe discipline is very important.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21He will need discipline.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24There's only two good reasons for getting married.
0:15:24 > 0:15:25One is to have children.
0:15:25 > 0:15:26The other one is so that at least
0:15:26 > 0:15:29your wife can drive you home when you're drunk.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34Oh, dear. We missed. What a shame.
0:15:34 > 0:15:36'It turned out'
0:15:36 > 0:15:39that there was a very extraordinary film about these four characters
0:15:39 > 0:15:42'who represented, perhaps,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45'the negative side of Mrs Thatcher's time.'
0:15:47 > 0:15:50The unemployed must, in many people's eyes,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53represent a threat to security, a threat to stability,
0:15:53 > 0:15:55a threat to law and order.
0:15:55 > 0:15:56HE LAUGHS
0:15:58 > 0:16:00'These three guys saw it together.'
0:16:00 > 0:16:01They thought it was wonderful!
0:16:01 > 0:16:04They thought it was fantastic. It was home movies to them.
0:16:04 > 0:16:06What a load of smart-arses they were.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09Don't shoot it, for God's sake.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11Not on camera, anyway!
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Then of course, when it went out, the roof fell in,
0:16:15 > 0:16:17because most of the rest of the world
0:16:17 > 0:16:19saw them in quite a different way.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23The death sentence is only passed when one is as certain as one can be,
0:16:23 > 0:16:25and it's never, ever 100%,
0:16:25 > 0:16:28but let's say 95% is good enough for me.
0:16:28 > 0:16:30In fact, probably in most cases, 90% is good enough for me.
0:16:30 > 0:16:32I don't think they liked it,
0:16:32 > 0:16:35but one of them certainly stayed in touch with Paul Watson
0:16:35 > 0:16:39and was up for another film, I think, about a year later.
0:16:39 > 0:16:41Vanity, vanity.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46MUSIC: Brindisi (Drinking Song) from La Traviata
0:16:55 > 0:16:59In 1981, La Traviata became the first opera
0:16:59 > 0:17:02to be relayed live from across the Atlantic.
0:17:16 > 0:17:19- Sit.- No, that's very weak. Sit!
0:17:23 > 0:17:27- Say "wait".- Wait! - No, that's a squeak, Mrs Murray.
0:17:28 > 0:17:32Set off with the word "walkies!"
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Not upwards, downwards. No, over here. Let go.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40Oh, he's lovely! He's lovely!
0:17:43 > 0:17:46Of course I can cook. Who says I can't?
0:17:48 > 0:17:50Won't be long now.
0:17:50 > 0:17:51'I know I'll never grow up,
0:17:51 > 0:17:56because I still have that kind of childish feeling'
0:17:56 > 0:17:57that it isn't fair.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00And when I think that something isn't fair,
0:18:00 > 0:18:04that's when I go to the typewriter and fight back.
0:18:04 > 0:18:05Jesus, don't!
0:18:07 > 0:18:09HONKING AND SQUAWKING
0:18:13 > 0:18:16It was a scream of anger, really, from Alan,
0:18:16 > 0:18:19and a rather operatic picture of hell.
0:18:22 > 0:18:24DOGS BARKING
0:18:25 > 0:18:26HE SOBS
0:18:26 > 0:18:29When you consider at the time that Granada were convinced
0:18:29 > 0:18:32they were going to win the BAFTA for Brideshead,
0:18:32 > 0:18:33and then all of a sudden,
0:18:33 > 0:18:35out of nowhere comes Boys From The Blackstuff.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38Have you got a job?
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Gissa job. Eh?
0:18:43 > 0:18:46I'd be all right if I had a job.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48Honest.
0:18:48 > 0:18:50Well, the irony about the way in which
0:18:50 > 0:18:53The Boys From The Blackstuff was perceived
0:18:53 > 0:18:57was that it was a righteous and virulent attack
0:18:57 > 0:18:59upon Thatcher's Britain.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02I'd be all right. Oh, yes!
0:19:07 > 0:19:11The irony being that I wrote four of the five episodes
0:19:11 > 0:19:14of The Boys From The Blackstuff before Thatcher came to power.
0:19:14 > 0:19:17God's sake! For once in your life,
0:19:17 > 0:19:20why don't you stand up for yourself?!
0:19:24 > 0:19:26The aim of Secret Society
0:19:26 > 0:19:28was to take a range of subjects
0:19:28 > 0:19:32in which secrecy about important issues was not acceptable.
0:19:32 > 0:19:35When Duncan Campbell first set out to make a television series
0:19:35 > 0:19:37on the subject of secrecy in Britain,
0:19:37 > 0:19:38he began a chain of events
0:19:38 > 0:19:41that was to lead to a full-scale political row.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45The programme which the series became absolutely known for
0:19:45 > 0:19:48was about how the Government had secretly committed
0:19:48 > 0:19:52half a billion pounds to building Britain's first ever spy satellite,
0:19:52 > 0:19:55an utterly top-secret project which no-one knew about,
0:19:55 > 0:19:59but which flouted an important parliamentary agreement.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02That satellite was to have been called Zircon.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04- MARGARET THATCHER:- In October 1986,
0:20:04 > 0:20:07the Government learned of the BBC's intention
0:20:07 > 0:20:11to show specific material on a secret defence project.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13There came a moment
0:20:13 > 0:20:19at which we interviewed a senior Ministry of Defence former scientist,
0:20:19 > 0:20:22and explicitly asked him about Zircon.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25And it was the epochal moment of the programme.
0:20:25 > 0:20:29What difference to the situation for Britain and NATO
0:20:29 > 0:20:31will be made by the Zircon satellite?
0:20:35 > 0:20:38I can't talk to you about that, I'm afraid.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41You're saying that everything about Zircon is classified?
0:20:41 > 0:20:43Yes, I'm sorry about that.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47- REPORTER:- Special Branch officers raided the homes
0:20:47 > 0:20:49of Duncan Campbell and his researchers
0:20:49 > 0:20:52and, a week later, BBC Scotland's offices in Glasgow.
0:20:52 > 0:20:57'Government solicitors obtained an injunction from the High Court'
0:20:57 > 0:20:59and then attempted to serve me personally.
0:21:01 > 0:21:03The reaction in Downing Street
0:21:03 > 0:21:07when the story was published in magazines and newspapers,
0:21:07 > 0:21:12having tried to prevent it being shown on BBC Two, was outrage.
0:21:12 > 0:21:13Good evening.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17The Director-General of the BBC, Alasdair Milne, has resigned
0:21:17 > 0:21:19and tonight there's growing speculation
0:21:19 > 0:21:21that he was asked to leave.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26After the controversy and during the controversy, of course,
0:21:26 > 0:21:28Mr Milne was sacked by the Governors.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34Later on, when I came to know Alasdair Milne,
0:21:34 > 0:21:38he told me something of the intense pressure he'd been under
0:21:38 > 0:21:41in dealing with the programmes before he was sacked,
0:21:41 > 0:21:44and I've also heard it suggested by those who knew him
0:21:44 > 0:21:47that the pressure went further than he's prepared to speak of,
0:21:47 > 0:21:48even to this day.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53I can't talk to you about that, I'm afraid.
0:21:53 > 0:21:55My goodness, it smells of chlorine.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Municipal swimming baths, through and through. Disgusting.
0:21:58 > 0:21:59Better taste better.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01'When I arrived on BBC Two,'
0:22:01 > 0:22:04there were quite a lot of lifestyle programmes, surprisingly,
0:22:04 > 0:22:06though none of them...
0:22:06 > 0:22:08In fact, I can hardly remember the names of any of them,
0:22:08 > 0:22:10except Food And Drink.
0:22:13 > 0:22:19Food And Drink was detested by a series of controllers of BBC Two.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23First, there was Alan Yentob, who became controller in 1988.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25Cool, trendy Alan Yentob.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28What was this programme with people in sweaters?
0:22:28 > 0:22:31Hello, and welcome to the ultimate Food And Drink in the series.
0:22:31 > 0:22:34The only way we managed to keep the show on air
0:22:34 > 0:22:36was because it regularly got 4 million viewers,
0:22:36 > 0:22:39and in the end they couldn't do without it. Nyah!
0:22:39 > 0:22:41A sort of mouth-filling feel...
0:22:41 > 0:22:43..attacks you in your balloon-blowing muscles...
0:22:43 > 0:22:45..lactic, pastry edge to it...
0:22:45 > 0:22:47- And, and... - Hot Bakewell tart...
0:22:47 > 0:22:49..really does whoosh up your nose...
0:22:49 > 0:22:50..desperately disappointed...
0:22:50 > 0:22:53If we mentioned a wine on the Food And Drink programme,
0:22:53 > 0:22:55there would probably be additional sales
0:22:55 > 0:22:57of a quarter of a million bottles the following day.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59You need that firmness in the mouth.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01HE LAUGHS
0:23:01 > 0:23:02Hold on to it overnight.
0:23:06 > 0:23:07What Def II means
0:23:07 > 0:23:09is actually quite a good question.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14I think a lot of people got slightly confused by it.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16You should ask Janet Street-Porter.
0:23:16 > 0:23:18I don't know, I've forgotten!
0:23:18 > 0:23:22Def II, I think, means exactly what you want it to mean.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24It's like respect to, or something like that.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26Some kind of rap twaddle like that.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29Def II, bluntly, was the BBC's attempt
0:23:29 > 0:23:32to sort of cater for an audience
0:23:32 > 0:23:34that didn't know where BBC Two was on the dial.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39It was just a good way of creating a channel within a channel.
0:23:39 > 0:23:41That was the concept.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Def II's pretty responsible for a lot of good stuff, as well.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48Def II was the banner for a mixed bag of programmes,
0:23:48 > 0:23:50all aimed at the youth market.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52This week, the Rough Guide comes to you from Havana...
0:23:52 > 0:23:54A city where time seems to have stood still...
0:23:54 > 0:23:57Frozen in the moment on New Year's Day 1959,
0:23:57 > 0:23:59when the revolutionary hero Fidel Castro...
0:23:59 > 0:24:01Overthrew the corrupt leaders, pimps and mafiosi...
0:24:01 > 0:24:03Who had turned the city into one of the most
0:24:03 > 0:24:04notorious playgrounds in the world.
0:24:04 > 0:24:08It really did change the notion of a travel programme,
0:24:08 > 0:24:10and also about the kinds of places you might go to.
0:24:15 > 0:24:16You know, Rough Guide
0:24:16 > 0:24:19transcended the demographic of its target audience.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22We had a surprisingly large number of pensioners watching it.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27Don't you remember growing up, how great it was to see people
0:24:27 > 0:24:30dancing on telly, because you could check out what they were wearing?
0:24:32 > 0:24:34I don't believe this, but it's happening.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36I wouldn't be seen dead on television
0:24:36 > 0:24:38looking like a muppet tramp with no idea of style.
0:24:38 > 0:24:43Easy-peasy, welcome back to the me, the 'Ski, and my dance posse.
0:24:43 > 0:24:44The minute we announced the show,
0:24:44 > 0:24:48we had hundreds of people who wanted to be in the audience,
0:24:48 > 0:24:50and it was a really exciting atmosphere,
0:24:50 > 0:24:52because they looked fabulous.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54In fact, it was so popular
0:24:54 > 0:24:59that even a pre-Spice Girls Geri Halliwell made a brief appearance.
0:25:01 > 0:25:02People just wanted to be on the show.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04They used to break into the studio,
0:25:04 > 0:25:07and they used to get away with it, no-one would know.
0:25:10 > 0:25:12Shut your mouth! I ain't deaf.
0:25:12 > 0:25:15I've got loadsamoney!
0:25:15 > 0:25:17WOLF HOWLS
0:25:17 > 0:25:20I think the thing that marked The Late Show out
0:25:20 > 0:25:23from the other programmes that were on at the time about art
0:25:23 > 0:25:25was one very simple fact,
0:25:25 > 0:25:27which was that it was live.
0:25:27 > 0:25:29And it was live four nights a week.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31And what that implicitly said
0:25:31 > 0:25:33was that whatever is going on in the cultural world
0:25:33 > 0:25:35is almost as important as politics.
0:25:35 > 0:25:41At the time that we were thinking of The Late Show, politics seemed dull.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43There wasn't much happening in British politics.
0:25:43 > 0:25:47Even in terms of the worldview, nothing much had changed.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55And from the moment that The Late Show arrived, the world changed.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57Almost from the first programme.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00# Right now The Late Show is on the air... #
0:26:00 > 0:26:03I was presenting the first programme and I remember
0:26:03 > 0:26:06we all went away on Saturday night, and we had four items lined up,
0:26:06 > 0:26:08and they were pretty boring and ordinary.
0:26:08 > 0:26:10- Good evening. - # Listen while I tell you... #
0:26:10 > 0:26:12- Good evening. - # Hey, I'm going to tell you... #
0:26:12 > 0:26:13Good evening.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16# Hey, I'm going to tell you why it's there... #
0:26:16 > 0:26:17And on Sunday,
0:26:17 > 0:26:20one of the communities in Bradford
0:26:20 > 0:26:23burnt a copy of The Satanic Verses.
0:26:23 > 0:26:26I remember, I interviewed Salman that very first programme.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28As we came off, we all kind of went
0:26:28 > 0:26:33"Phew, I see, so that's what live cultural programming's about".
0:26:33 > 0:26:35The simple truth is that I haven't broken any laws.
0:26:35 > 0:26:37They may wish that I had. They may wish Islamic law
0:26:37 > 0:26:40applied in this country and I could be stoned to death.
0:26:40 > 0:26:44Special Branch came rushing into the building and ushered him out,
0:26:44 > 0:26:46'these big, burly guys.'
0:26:46 > 0:26:49'We thought we were making this rather obscure programme'
0:26:49 > 0:26:52all about a little corner of society, a corner of life.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56And, actually, it's about something that really, really matters.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58Are you saying that if it came to it,
0:26:58 > 0:27:00you would be prepared to pull the trigger?
0:27:00 > 0:27:01On Rushdie?
0:27:03 > 0:27:07- I mean, talking seriously. - I am talking seriously, yeah.
0:27:07 > 0:27:09If it came to it, and we were face-to-face...
0:27:12 > 0:27:14- ..who knows? - What do you mean, "Who knows?"
0:27:14 > 0:27:17I'm saying, who knows? I might pull the trigger, yes.
0:27:17 > 0:27:20One of the significant successes of The Late Show
0:27:20 > 0:27:24was the fact that it arrived at a moment when things were changing,
0:27:24 > 0:27:27and you could report, albeit from the point of view of culture,
0:27:27 > 0:27:29on those changes.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32It's called Oak Tree, of course, and it's a celebrated piece,
0:27:32 > 0:27:34because in fact it holds out a promise
0:27:34 > 0:27:36of something that definitely isn't there.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39I remember them having a very straight-faced discussion
0:27:39 > 0:27:41about when it stopped being a glass of water.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44At what point after the water was poured in did it become an oak tree?
0:27:44 > 0:27:47Well, it only becomes an oak tree when I put the water into the glass.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49So in that sense, beforehand it wasn't an oak tree
0:27:49 > 0:27:51and now it definitely is.
0:27:51 > 0:27:53You couldn't quite tell
0:27:53 > 0:27:55whether they were both in on the joke,
0:27:55 > 0:27:58whether Matt was making fun of him. It was very stimulating.
0:27:58 > 0:27:59It's uncanny,
0:27:59 > 0:28:02because it looks so much like a glass of water on a shelf now.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05It does, amazingly. But it is, in fact, an oak tree.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08There was a space in which you could say what you really thought,
0:28:08 > 0:28:11rather than what you thought you ought to say
0:28:11 > 0:28:13about a piece of art or a piece of writing.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15He clearly didn't like the magazine,
0:28:15 > 0:28:17because we gave his book a bad review.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Oh, that's absolute bollocks. ALL TALK AT ONCE
0:28:20 > 0:28:22It's fiction! It's fiction!
0:28:22 > 0:28:23This was war.
0:28:23 > 0:28:25Do you understand what it's like?
0:28:25 > 0:28:29What it's being picked the whole time for this kind of abuse?
0:28:29 > 0:28:31Don't give me these patronising lessons, Peter!
0:28:31 > 0:28:34Sarah Dunant was always very good with the pencil.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36Let's move back... Can I stop you both?
0:28:36 > 0:28:38Let's move back to the figure of Kennedy later.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40I'm going home, man.
0:28:40 > 0:28:43You're so fucking dead!
0:28:43 > 0:28:45You really are dead.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48MUSIC: "Fawlty Towers" theme