0:00:09 > 0:00:11APPLAUSE
0:00:16 > 0:00:17Thank you.
0:00:17 > 0:00:21Welcome to My Life In Books, a chance for our guests to share some of their favourite reads.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24With me tonight, Baroness James of Holland Park,
0:00:24 > 0:00:28better known to her fans as the famous crime writer PD James.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32The Baroness is in her 91st year.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Alongside her, the radio and TV presenter Richard Bacon.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40He made a bit of a name for himself for being on, then off Blue Peter.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42He now modestly describes himself
0:00:42 > 0:00:46as a minor celebrity and presenter on Radio 5 Live.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49So, a gap of 55 years between my guests.
0:00:49 > 0:00:52- Thank you both for joining me. - APPLAUSE
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Phyllis, tells us a bit about
0:00:54 > 0:00:56what it was like when you were growing up.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00Well, we lived at Ludlow, a very, very beautiful town.
0:01:00 > 0:01:06My father worked in income tax, and I have a sister who's 18 months younger than I am,
0:01:06 > 0:01:11and then a brother, there are three of us, and we were educated in the state system.
0:01:11 > 0:01:12Was it a house full of books?
0:01:12 > 0:01:16- No. No, it never was.- Really? - It never was.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18So, really, all my reading life,
0:01:18 > 0:01:21at least until I became an adult and had money to buy books,
0:01:21 > 0:01:23I used to get them from the public library.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Richard, many years later,
0:01:25 > 0:01:28your childhood was in Mansfield in Nottingham.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31- Yes.- Your father was a lawyer.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33- Still is.- And your mother was a teacher.
0:01:33 > 0:01:38- Were you reading from an early age? - Yeah, I was. There were plenty of books in the house.
0:01:38 > 0:01:42It wasn't FULL of books, but I'm from what you would call a firmly middle class household,
0:01:42 > 0:01:44and we had books.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47We're going to begin with childhood reads.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Phyllis, your first choice is Jane Austen,
0:01:50 > 0:01:52- Pride and Prejudice.- Yes.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54- How old were you when you read this? - Remarkably young.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56It's quite astonishing, really.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58I don't think it's for the very young.
0:01:58 > 0:02:03- Can you give us a quick summary of the plot?- It's a romantic novel.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06And it is about a family of girls, five of them.
0:02:06 > 0:02:11And they have a rather poor outlook because when their father dies,
0:02:11 > 0:02:15the dreadful Mr Collins will take over the whole of the estate.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19So it's very important that they find husbands, especially in those days.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21And the heroine is the second daughter, Elizabeth.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25And, of course, Mrs Bennet's sole desire in life...
0:02:25 > 0:02:28She is desperate to get her daughters married.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32You said that for you, it's one of the great pieces of English literature.
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Oh, it is. It's the most sparkling.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38And it's one you discovered first, at eight.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40Yes, and you get straight into the story,
0:02:40 > 0:02:42which is the thing for an eight-year-old.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45- You're going to read us a little bit.- Yes, indeed.
0:02:45 > 0:02:48I think it's from my own book here.
0:02:53 > 0:02:57Mrs Bennet rang the bell, and Miss Elizabeth was summoned to the library.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00"Come here, child", cried her father as she appeared,
0:03:00 > 0:03:04"I have sent for you on an affair of importance."
0:03:04 > 0:03:09"I understand that Mr Collins has made you an offer of marriage. Is this true?"
0:03:09 > 0:03:13Elizabeth replied that it was. "Very well."
0:03:13 > 0:03:16"And this offer of marriage you have refused?"
0:03:16 > 0:03:18"I have, sir."
0:03:18 > 0:03:21"Very well. We now come to the point.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25"Your mother insists upon your accepting it. Is not it so, Mrs Bennet?"
0:03:25 > 0:03:29"Yes, or I will never see her again!"
0:03:29 > 0:03:31"An unhappy alternative is before you, Elizabeth."
0:03:31 > 0:03:35"From this day, you must be a stranger to one of your parents."
0:03:35 > 0:03:39"Your mother will never see you again if you do NOT marry Mr Collins,"
0:03:39 > 0:03:43"and I will never see you again if you DO."
0:03:44 > 0:03:47- Richard, have you read Pride and Prejudice?- I have.
0:03:47 > 0:03:48I enjoyed Phyllis reading it out.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51Can we just go through the whole book?
0:03:51 > 0:03:54- It's, erm...- When did you read it?
0:03:54 > 0:03:59Well, I read it at school and I have not reread it as an adult.
0:03:59 > 0:04:01- You obviously have reread it.- Yes.
0:04:01 > 0:04:03Is it just as good, is it as effective re-reading it?
0:04:03 > 0:04:06- Oh, just as, do reread it, do reread it.- Then I shall.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09It's great fun, reread it, yes.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Richard, what's your first book?
0:04:11 > 0:04:13The book I want to talk about first is Roald Dahl's Boy.
0:04:13 > 0:04:19Roald Dahl was my first favourite author. This is autobiographical.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21He wrote this in 1984,
0:04:21 > 0:04:25and it is...it's written for children and it's about him,
0:04:25 > 0:04:28it's from birth to when he gets his first job,
0:04:28 > 0:04:30but most of it is set at school.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33And he went to a prep school called Repton.
0:04:33 > 0:04:37And I went to a prep school called Wellow in Nottinghamshire
0:04:37 > 0:04:38and Repton is in Derbyshire.
0:04:38 > 0:04:41And so, we played Repton at sport,
0:04:41 > 0:04:43and so when I read the book,
0:04:43 > 0:04:47I could visualise a lot of the places that he was talking about.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50There's a particular incident that you like, isn't there?
0:04:50 > 0:04:53- Yes.- Can you tell us about it? - Yes, I certainly can.
0:04:53 > 0:04:58As a seven-year-old boy, he has a fixation on a sweet shop near his house,
0:04:58 > 0:05:02and when I was about that age, there was a sweet shop near where I lived
0:05:02 > 0:05:05that I was fascinated with as well, and he just loves confectionery.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08He's brilliant in describing the sweets.
0:05:08 > 0:05:15But he, as a seven-year-old boy, puts a dead rat in a jar of gobstoppers.
0:05:15 > 0:05:18- Urgh.- Exactly, it's not a pleasant idea.
0:05:18 > 0:05:20Mrs Pratchett runs the shop,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23and he and his friends simply don't like her,
0:05:23 > 0:05:25so they hatch this plan.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28Actually, it's a dead mouse, and they put it in and run out the shop.
0:05:28 > 0:05:32And she finds it, and she drops the jar and it shatters all over the floor,
0:05:32 > 0:05:37- and they get in a lot of trouble at school.- As they would.- And... Yeah.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42And this is a little scene where he is being caned by the headmaster.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44By the time the fourth stroke was delivered,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47my entire backside seemed to be going up in flames.
0:05:47 > 0:05:51Far away in the distance, I heard Mr Coombes's voice saying,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54"Now, get out." Mr Coombes is the headmaster.
0:05:54 > 0:05:55As I limped across the study
0:05:55 > 0:05:58clutching my buttocks hard with both hands,
0:05:58 > 0:06:01a cackling sound came from the armchair over in the corner.
0:06:01 > 0:06:05And then I heard the vinegary voice of Mrs Pratchett saying,
0:06:05 > 0:06:07"I am very much obliged to you, Headmaster,
0:06:07 > 0:06:13"very much obliged. I don't think we's gonna see any more stinking mice in my gobstoppers from now on."
0:06:13 > 0:06:17In these days, the headmaster would be in court in no time.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20But all the teachers in his book are cruel, aren't they?
0:06:20 > 0:06:24I mean, it really was him paying back for the time he'd had.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28There's a bit when he...when he's a bit older and he's at Repton,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31that's before Repton, and he is a fag for a prefect,
0:06:31 > 0:06:36and the prefect would make him warm up his toilet seat every day.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39So Roald Dahl had this job.
0:06:39 > 0:06:41And he had to sit on the toilet seat,
0:06:41 > 0:06:44and he had to get it to exactly the right temperature,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47to within one degree.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49And according to Roald Dahl,
0:06:49 > 0:06:52that over the years that he did this, he did this day after day,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55accumulating hours of sitting on a toilet seat,
0:06:55 > 0:06:56he claims that in that time,
0:06:56 > 0:06:59he read the entire works of Charles Dickens.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02LAUGHTER
0:07:02 > 0:07:04Phyllis, we're on to your second book,
0:07:04 > 0:07:06which is The Hound of the Baskervilles
0:07:06 > 0:07:08by Arthur Conan Doyle.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11- How old are you by now? - Oh, I'm adolescent by now.- Yeah.
0:07:11 > 0:07:17And I can't say that I liked his short stories but I did, very much,
0:07:17 > 0:07:21enjoy The Hound of the Baskervilles and it seemed to me brilliantly written,
0:07:21 > 0:07:26- probably one of the greatest crime novels ever written. - Tell us a bit of the plot.
0:07:26 > 0:07:31Well, Holmes is called in, as he often is, by somebody who comes to his room
0:07:31 > 0:07:33at 221 Baker Street,
0:07:33 > 0:07:38and says that there is a curse on the family of Baskervilles,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41who live on Dartmoor,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43and they have died under awful circumstances,
0:07:43 > 0:07:47killed by a vicious hound from hell.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51Something that isn't natural. And the last Baskerville died in that way,
0:07:51 > 0:07:55and now his heir is arriving from overseas to take possession.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57And this is the doctor, and he's very, very worried.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01He wants to have this mystery solved, and he calls in Holmes.
0:08:01 > 0:08:05You didn't start writing professionally until you were in your 30s,
0:08:05 > 0:08:09but had you actually decided from a child that you were going to be a writer?
0:08:09 > 0:08:10Oh, absolutely, Anne.
0:08:10 > 0:08:15I think I was born knowing that I, not that I wanted to be a writer,
0:08:15 > 0:08:17I was born knowing that I WAS a writer.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19It's just a question of whether I did it.
0:08:19 > 0:08:21I seem not to have doubted that I could,
0:08:21 > 0:08:26but I did very much doubt whether anybody would want to buy my books.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29I didn't think that I would ever be a bestselling writer.
0:08:29 > 0:08:32And I had a husband who came back mentally ill from the war.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35So, by then, I had to support him and two small girls.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37So I had to have safe jobs.
0:08:37 > 0:08:40So, for the whole of my writing, except for the latter years,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43I have been a bureaucrat, first in the Health Service,
0:08:43 > 0:08:45and then in the Home Office,
0:08:45 > 0:08:46and I've used that experience in my books.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Well, a hundred years on,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51Arthur Conan Doyle's work is still being enjoyed.
0:08:51 > 0:08:55We've got a clip here from last year's very successful BBC series
0:08:55 > 0:08:58with Benedict Cumberbatch playing Sherlock Holmes.
0:09:12 > 0:09:13Shut up.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18- I didn't say anything... - You were thinking, it's annoying.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51I thought it was absolutely brilliant, that programme.
0:09:51 > 0:09:56And it's interesting how fascinated people are by Holmes still.
0:09:56 > 0:10:00Even though it's set now, it's full of the detail of the original books.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02Phyllis, do you share that opinion?
0:10:02 > 0:10:05It's a wonderful idea to bring it up to date, and yet remain, you know,
0:10:05 > 0:10:08faithful to the actual character, and to his methods.
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Very faithful.
0:10:10 > 0:10:15Richard, your next choice came about, you'd gone to university in Nottingham,
0:10:15 > 0:10:17and had enough very shortly, hadn't you?
0:10:17 > 0:10:20- Yeah.- You were 19 when you cleared off.- I did.
0:10:20 > 0:10:21I did a year there.
0:10:21 > 0:10:26I wanted to work in radio and I got offered a full-time job as a reporter so I left uni.
0:10:26 > 0:10:27What were you reading?
0:10:27 > 0:10:31- It was, it was... - You can't remember, Richard.
0:10:31 > 0:10:32Not really.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35It was a very strange degree that I took at the last minute,
0:10:35 > 0:10:39and it was a hybrid of business studies and electronics.
0:10:39 > 0:10:40- Yeah.- Together at last.
0:10:42 > 0:10:47- And it was rubbish, and so I... I went off into radio.- Yeah.
0:10:47 > 0:10:49So the book is called Stick It Up Your Punter!,
0:10:49 > 0:10:55by Peter Chippindale and Chris Horrie. What's it about?
0:10:55 > 0:10:57- It is about Rupert Murdoch buying The Sun.- Yeah.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02And it then becomes about his first editor called Larry Lamb,
0:11:02 > 0:11:06not to be confused with the Gavin And Stacey, EastEnders actor Larry Lamb.
0:11:06 > 0:11:10And a guy called Kelvin MacKenzie takes over editorship of The Sun,
0:11:10 > 0:11:12rather infamously during the 1980s.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15And most of it really is about Kelvin.
0:11:15 > 0:11:19Umm...It's an outrageous book. It's an exciting book.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22- It's a funny and shocking book. - Have you met him?
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Yes, many times. I went, I went on to work for him.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28Kelvin commissioned a documentary,
0:11:28 > 0:11:31a grand word, that I made for him,
0:11:31 > 0:11:36called Behind The Scenes Of Topless Darts On Ice and...
0:11:36 > 0:11:40In my ways, Phyllis, it's still my best work.
0:11:40 > 0:11:47Did you... Do you end up regarding Kelvin MacKenzie as a hero, or a villain?
0:11:47 > 0:11:51- I suppose both, really. - A monster, in some ways.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56A monster in some ways, yeah. But as an editor, he was brilliant.
0:11:56 > 0:12:02At the same time, some of his views and some of the things he did were absolutely outrageous.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04This will shock you, OK?
0:12:04 > 0:12:07The paper was arousing strong resentment from the world's worst,
0:12:07 > 0:12:12which was Kelvin's nickname for The Guardian, and other un-populars for its AIDS coverage.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15The disease had come onto the news agenda in a big way
0:12:15 > 0:12:18for the first time in early 1985,
0:12:18 > 0:12:21bringing out all MacKenzie's instinctive hatred of "poofters".
0:12:21 > 0:12:27A report in the paper in February quoted an anonymous psychologist at an AIDS conference in Washington DC
0:12:27 > 0:12:30as advocating mass killings of gays.
0:12:30 > 0:12:35All homosexuals should be exterminated to stop the spread of AIDS.
0:12:35 > 0:12:38"It's time we stopped pussyfooting around", he supposedly said.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41This reported in The Sun in the 1980s.
0:12:41 > 0:12:46MacKenzie responded to hacks, expressing mild concern about the paper's approach to the subject
0:12:46 > 0:12:50with jeers like, "Come out, have we, eh? One of them, are we?",
0:12:50 > 0:12:52followed by a shout across the editorial floor,
0:12:52 > 0:12:55"Watch out, folks, there's a botty burglar about."
0:12:55 > 0:12:59You know, that shows you, partly his personality,
0:12:59 > 0:13:03partly how shocking it was, partly how attitudes have changed as well.
0:13:03 > 0:13:08Your admiration of the tabloids is quite surprising because you've been a real victim, haven't you?
0:13:08 > 0:13:11I've been a victim and I was a story in The News Of The World,
0:13:11 > 0:13:16which you very kindly alluded to at the very start of the programme, thank you.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18I don't know it.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20Yeah, well, Richard, tell Phyllis what you got up to.
0:13:20 > 0:13:22- Eh...- Well, I'd like to know.
0:13:22 > 0:13:25LAUGHTER
0:13:25 > 0:13:28The audience would like to know, wouldn't you? We all want to know.
0:13:28 > 0:13:32As a reader of Sherlock Holmes, I believe you'll be familiar with cocaine.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35- Oh, yes. - Just to bring it back to literature.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41- And... I was a Blue Peter... you know Blue Peter?- Yes.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44So I was a Blue Peter presenter and I took cocaine.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48And then a best friend sold my story and I got sacked and it was all over The News Of The World.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50And what was interesting was,
0:13:50 > 0:13:55I am an admirer of tabloid newspapers and I find them fascinating.
0:13:55 > 0:13:59I don't support everything they do, but I am fascinated by the way they operate.
0:13:59 > 0:14:05And it gave...and I had this grudging respect for the way they'd reported my own story.
0:14:05 > 0:14:11So it left me in this emotionally compromised place where I was angry at being turned over,
0:14:11 > 0:14:14and yet, somehow slightly admired what they'd done.
0:14:14 > 0:14:17- You've brought along a boy's toy, haven't you?- Yes.
0:14:17 > 0:14:21This is how I often read books now. This is my iPad.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25Do you understand why people would like to read books on an electronic device?
0:14:25 > 0:14:30I try to, but I think it's very much a generation thing.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32For me, anything, any technology will go wrong
0:14:32 > 0:14:36almost as soon as I touch it so, I'm sure it would go wrong.
0:14:36 > 0:14:38I love books. I just love books.
0:14:38 > 0:14:42I love the feel of them, the smell of them, taking them down from the...
0:14:42 > 0:14:44- Yeah, I agree. - Anne's really unimpressed.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47I'm like Phyllis, I just love books.
0:14:47 > 0:14:51I heard you say you give them away, I find it very hard to throw out books.
0:14:51 > 0:14:56Look, this is Roald Dahl's Boy and you still get to turn a page,
0:14:56 > 0:14:59you still flick the page along.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01It's not as satisfying as holding a book,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05but they do quite a good job of replicating what it's like to read a book.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10Phyllis, your next book, and by this time you're working in the National Health Service, aren't you?
0:15:10 > 0:15:16- Probably, yes.- And it's Evelyn Waugh's A Handful Of Dust.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18I certainly would be in the Health Service, yes.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20Give us a brief description.
0:15:20 > 0:15:25This is a major novel, a brilliant novel, by one of the great masters of the English language.
0:15:25 > 0:15:30He's amazing at dialogue, and it's really the story of an unfaithful marriage.
0:15:30 > 0:15:34Tony Last, he has a big country house.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37It's a great Victorian, very ugly one, but he loves it.
0:15:37 > 0:15:42It's been in the family for a long time and he's married to Brenda and they've got a little boy.
0:15:42 > 0:15:47And she's obviously bored and she takes this dreadful John Beaver as her lover
0:15:47 > 0:15:50and has a little flat in town and pretends she's taking lessons,
0:15:50 > 0:15:52in fact she's sleeping with Beaver.
0:15:52 > 0:15:56You're talking about his dialogue and you're going to read us a little bit.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59The mother has nothing to do with the little boy,
0:15:59 > 0:16:03he's brought up by the nanny and by the groom, Ben, whom he adores.
0:16:03 > 0:16:08Because Ben teaches him very odd language, he tells his nanny
0:16:08 > 0:16:12she's an old tart, so there's very great trouble about that.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16"I actually thought it was very nice to be called a tart," John argued,
0:16:16 > 0:16:20"and anyway it's a word Ben often uses about people."
0:16:20 > 0:16:24"Well, he's got no business to. I like Ben more than anyone in the world
0:16:24 > 0:16:26"and I should think he's clever too."
0:16:26 > 0:16:31Tony felt that the time had come to cut out the cross talk and deliver the homily he had been preparing.
0:16:31 > 0:16:36"Now listen, John, it was very wrong of you to call Nanny a silly old tart.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38"First because it was unkind to her.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41"Think of all the things she does for you every day."
0:16:41 > 0:16:42"She's paid to."
0:16:42 > 0:16:44"Be quiet!"
0:16:46 > 0:16:51"And secondly, because you were using a word which people of your age and class do not use.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55"Poor people use certain expressions which gentlemen do not.
0:16:55 > 0:16:56"You are a gentleman.
0:16:56 > 0:17:02"When you grow up you must be considerate to people less fortunate than you, particularly women.
0:17:02 > 0:17:04"Do you understand?"
0:17:04 > 0:17:06"Is Ben less fortunate than me?"
0:17:06 > 0:17:08"That has nothing to do with it.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11"Now you are to go upstairs and say you are truly sorry to Nanny
0:17:11 > 0:17:14"and promise never to use that word about anyone again." "All right."
0:17:14 > 0:17:19We know the relationship of the father with the little boy.
0:17:19 > 0:17:24We know the values that the father lives by and it is an absolutely brilliant book.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26Did you meet him ever, Evelyn Waugh?
0:17:26 > 0:17:28I never met him. I'm rather glad I didn't.
0:17:28 > 0:17:31- I think he could be very unpleasant. - Yes. Tricky.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33Very tricky. Yes, absolutely.
0:17:33 > 0:17:36Not perhaps a very nice man.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39But a brilliant writer and what he did teach me,
0:17:39 > 0:17:43not only how to do dialogue, but how to care about the writing.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45He constantly revised his novels.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Do you revise with each re-issue?
0:17:48 > 0:17:52No. No, I don't. But I try to get it right first time, so I don't have to.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55If there's a silly error, I might.
0:17:55 > 0:17:57Of course I'd deal with that.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00Richard, your next choice is Flashman, George MacDonald Fraser.
0:18:00 > 0:18:02Yeah.
0:18:02 > 0:18:08- It was recommended to you by your co-presenter on The Big Breakfast, Johnny Vaughan.- That's right.- Yes.
0:18:08 > 0:18:13These are Johnny Vaughan's favourite series of books and have now become my favourite series of books.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16There are either 12 or 13 in the series and the last one came out
0:18:16 > 0:18:20in 2005, but they started coming out in the late Sixties.
0:18:20 > 0:18:25The first one is about the first Afghan war and I read it in 2000
0:18:25 > 0:18:29and it was just before the invasion of Afghanistan
0:18:29 > 0:18:32that is still going on, and I did feel as if I knew Afghanistan
0:18:32 > 0:18:36and I remember thinking at the time, "Good luck with that."
0:18:36 > 0:18:40It's a country that's impossible to run, manage, govern centrally, it's tribal and it's difficult
0:18:40 > 0:18:46and the British knew that in the first Afghan war, but seem to have largely forgotten it.
0:18:46 > 0:18:48It's a shame they didn't all read Flashman.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52Flashman is taken from Tom Brown's Schooldays.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54Isn't that an interesting idea?
0:18:54 > 0:18:56Thomas Hughes wrote Tom Brown's Schooldays
0:18:56 > 0:19:01and Flashman is the bully at Rugby under the headmaster Arnold.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04And George MacDonald Fraser has taken a fictional character
0:19:04 > 0:19:08written by someone else and imagined a life for him.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11What is extraordinary, I can't say anyone actually likes him,
0:19:11 > 0:19:15but one is very happy to read about him book after book and yet he's a coward.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18He's not so much a bully now, but he will bully if he can
0:19:18 > 0:19:21and he's an adventurer and he's not particularly honest
0:19:21 > 0:19:23and he's a reprehensible character.
0:19:23 > 0:19:25- He is.- But it doesn't matter, does it?
0:19:25 > 0:19:31He meets Queen Victoria, he gets the Victoria Cross, he calls her "quite attractive from the neck down".
0:19:31 > 0:19:36They're so good and I have learnt an awful lot about big moments
0:19:36 > 0:19:40in history that I knew nothing about that we ought to all remember.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42Is he a hero to you, Flashman?
0:19:42 > 0:19:46In some ways he is a hero. He's another monster. I like these books with monsters in.
0:19:46 > 0:19:48You're drawn to outrageous people.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50I think that's true.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54Phyllis, your next choice is a thriller, which isn't surprising,
0:19:54 > 0:19:56but it isn't incredibly well known.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59It's called Tragedy At Law by Cyril Hare.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03Tell us about this because it's very important in your life.
0:20:03 > 0:20:07It is very important. There's a series of books by Cyril Hare
0:20:07 > 0:20:10and he was in real life a High Court judge
0:20:10 > 0:20:17and in all his books the solution of the puzzle rests on a point of law.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20Very elegantly written, beautifully written.
0:20:20 > 0:20:23And what happened, I finished reading it
0:20:23 > 0:20:25and I'd sent my manuscript off to an agent
0:20:25 > 0:20:29and she was called Elaine Greene.
0:20:29 > 0:20:34She was married at the time to Hugh Carleton Greene who was Director General of the BBC.
0:20:34 > 0:20:39And she read the manuscript and that evening she and the Director General
0:20:39 > 0:20:43were due to go to Oxford to have dinner at All Souls.
0:20:43 > 0:20:49And at that dinner they sat next to Charles Monteith who was a director of Faber & Faber.
0:20:49 > 0:20:54And Charles said how sad it was that Cyril Hare
0:20:54 > 0:20:58had died in early middle age and that Fabers did like to have
0:20:58 > 0:21:02a detective writer on their list, so they would be looking for one.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05And Elaine said, "I've found it."
0:21:05 > 0:21:09She sent off the manuscript next day and Faber & Faber took it,
0:21:09 > 0:21:11so I was extraordinarily fortunate.
0:21:11 > 0:21:16I was accepted with my first book, by the first publisher it was sent to.
0:21:16 > 0:21:17So I have an affection for it anyway,
0:21:17 > 0:21:21and I do reread it with great pleasure and it does teach me
0:21:21 > 0:21:25what I learnt very early and knew almost by instinct
0:21:25 > 0:21:29that it's possible to write an exciting book, it's possible to
0:21:29 > 0:21:33stay within the constraints and so-called formula
0:21:33 > 0:21:36of the classical detective story and still write well,
0:21:36 > 0:21:39and still have an elegant and good style and respect
0:21:39 > 0:21:42for our magnificent and wonderful language,
0:21:42 > 0:21:46and still say something true about men and women and the society in which we live,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49which Cyril Hare does.
0:21:49 > 0:21:53And your next book, Richard, you, you learnt a lot about Afghanistan
0:21:53 > 0:21:59from Flashman and this is a work of non-fiction, it's called Stasiland by Anna Funder.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01Tell us about this.
0:22:01 > 0:22:02Well, this is a book
0:22:02 > 0:22:05about life behind the Wall.
0:22:05 > 0:22:10Anna Funder is Australian and she was working at a television station in West Berlin and became fascinated
0:22:10 > 0:22:12by what happened behind the Wall.
0:22:12 > 0:22:15What I like about it is, it's not a historian giving you
0:22:15 > 0:22:20his view of life in East Berlin and East Germany at that time.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22She does it as a journalist and she meets lots of people who either
0:22:22 > 0:22:26lived under the Stasi, the Stasi were the East German secret police,
0:22:26 > 0:22:30and she goes and meets former members of the Stasi
0:22:30 > 0:22:33and they tell their stories, there's very little of her view in it.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36- Phyllis, have you been to Berlin many times?- Yes, I have.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40Sometimes with the British Council, of which I was a member,
0:22:40 > 0:22:43and sometimes to promote my own books.
0:22:43 > 0:22:48I've been there when the Wall was up, when the Wall was coming down, and after the Wall was down.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51And certainly when the Wall was up,
0:22:51 > 0:22:55it was the most exciting city I think I've ever visited.
0:22:55 > 0:22:56- The West.- Yes, the West.
0:22:56 > 0:22:59- Did you visit East Berlin? - Yes, I did.
0:22:59 > 0:23:04I went into East, and they've got wonderful museums.
0:23:04 > 0:23:08What does your generation think about World War II?
0:23:08 > 0:23:13Are you as aware of it as, say, Phyllis who was grown up, and myself who was born just after?
0:23:13 > 0:23:16I'm 35, I think my generation is.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19People who are perhaps 20 and in their teens, I wonder if,
0:23:19 > 0:23:23we're now at the point where it will be as distant as Waterloo.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26It will just be this thing from history.
0:23:26 > 0:23:31And what's clever about Stasiland is it reminds you, it's not simply a historical event.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35A lot of these psychological scars are still very real for people
0:23:35 > 0:23:37and I think the book helps you realise that.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41We've heard about your childhood reads and the books that have influenced you.
0:23:41 > 0:23:47We move on now to books you simply enjoyed, the beach read, or a guilty pleasure.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49For you, Phyllis, your guilty pleasure,
0:23:49 > 0:23:52if you want to call it that, is The Pursuit of Love by Nancy Mitford.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55Yes, indeed. All Nancy Mitford's books, I just love them,
0:23:55 > 0:23:58and they're the sort of book you keep by your bed
0:23:58 > 0:24:01in case you wake up in the night and want a bit of comfort.
0:24:01 > 0:24:05- Can you tell us about the book? - Well, they're strongly autobiographical.
0:24:05 > 0:24:09She came from a remarkable family, mostly of girls, there was only one son,
0:24:09 > 0:24:12and all these girls were remarkable.
0:24:12 > 0:24:16One of them was a great friend of Hitler's, and the other one was the Duchess of Devonshire,
0:24:16 > 0:24:20and the other one was the beautiful Diana, who married Mosley
0:24:20 > 0:24:21and was imprisoned during the war.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25And they were an astonishing family.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28It's that kind of book that you're constantly,
0:24:28 > 0:24:30if not laughing, constantly smiling.
0:24:30 > 0:24:35We've got a clip from the BBC sound archives
0:24:35 > 0:24:41of Nancy Mitford talking about her own skills as a writer.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Did you ever go to university?
0:24:43 > 0:24:46I not only never went to university, but I was never taught lessons.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48I was taught to read and write.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52I can't spell either in French or English at all.
0:24:52 > 0:24:55I was taught no arithmetic at all.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57I can't...
0:24:57 > 0:25:00do sum, any sum, however simple.
0:25:00 > 0:25:05And when I have to fill in forms here which involve
0:25:05 > 0:25:11very small additions or multiplications,
0:25:11 > 0:25:15I have to send for my charwoman's grandson.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20So there's proof you don't need to be able to spell
0:25:20 > 0:25:22to become a great writer.
0:25:22 > 0:25:27Your final book, and your guilty pleasure, Richard,
0:25:27 > 0:25:30is an up-to-date piece of fiction, One Day by David Nicholls.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32Tell us about it.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35It's the story of Dexter and Emma.
0:25:35 > 0:25:39It starts in 1988 at Edinburgh University, it's their graduation day
0:25:39 > 0:25:43and we catch up with them on one day every year for just over 20 years.
0:25:43 > 0:25:45There's a lot that I recognised in it.
0:25:45 > 0:25:50He, Dexter, first of all he lives in Belsize Park, which is where I live.
0:25:50 > 0:25:52They spend a lot of time in Edinburgh, which I go to a lot.
0:25:52 > 0:25:56He's also a TV presenter who's presented lots of rubbish television
0:25:56 > 0:26:01programmes, and that was something that I immediately recognised.
0:26:01 > 0:26:08He has had a number of hedonistic experiences as well.
0:26:08 > 0:26:13Everyone I know who's read it finds something of themselves in it.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16And I think that's one of the very clever things about it.
0:26:16 > 0:26:20It's constantly funny and it's a sad book as well, but I've never
0:26:20 > 0:26:26spent so long thinking about two people who don't actually exist.
0:26:26 > 0:26:29Now this is difficult, but I'm going to ask you, Phyllis,
0:26:29 > 0:26:33if you had to choose just one book to recommend from your five,
0:26:33 > 0:26:35which would it be?
0:26:35 > 0:26:39Well, I think it has to be the Austen.
0:26:39 > 0:26:44Because...It may well appeal more to women than to men,
0:26:44 > 0:26:49but I think that once you really get to know Austen,
0:26:49 > 0:26:53then you are reading one of the greatest of our novelists
0:26:53 > 0:26:55and I love her.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58She has been the strongest influence in my writing.
0:26:58 > 0:27:02So it would have to be, it would have to be.
0:27:02 > 0:27:03Richard?
0:27:03 > 0:27:08Mine would definitely be Flashman because, basically it straddles fiction and non-fiction.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11It's a fictional story, through which you learn
0:27:11 > 0:27:15a lot about history and it's also brilliant and he's very funny.
0:27:15 > 0:27:19What do you think, Richard, your overall choices say about you?
0:27:19 > 0:27:24I think, to some extent, in relation to Flashman
0:27:24 > 0:27:26and Stick It Up Your Punter, they say that I'm quite intrigued
0:27:26 > 0:27:29and drawn towards monstrous characters.
0:27:29 > 0:27:33I think I have an interest in history, I like history,
0:27:33 > 0:27:36and I think even Stick It Up Your Punter is in some ways
0:27:36 > 0:27:41a historical document so I think that's reflected in that.
0:27:41 > 0:27:45What One Day says about me I have no idea.
0:27:45 > 0:27:47Maybe you're just a bit soppy.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50Yes, I think I'm getting older and becoming terribly soppy.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53Phyllis, what do your choices say about you?
0:27:53 > 0:27:56Probably that I'm a woman who likes order.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58Who likes disorder being made into order,
0:27:58 > 0:28:02order brought out of disorder, which is what the detective story does.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05More cautious than you, being a woman, possibly.
0:28:05 > 0:28:10Liking things to work out happily in the end
0:28:10 > 0:28:12and loving the English language.
0:28:12 > 0:28:17I think we have the richest, the most versatile and I think the most beautiful language in the world.
0:28:17 > 0:28:21Well, there we are. Thank you to PD James and Richard Bacon
0:28:21 > 0:28:23for joining me for My Life In Books.
0:28:23 > 0:28:25APPLAUSE
0:28:54 > 0:28:57Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd