0:00:13 > 0:00:15APPLAUSE
0:00:15 > 0:00:21Welcome to My Life In Books, a chance for my guests to share their favourite reads.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24And with me tonight, Sister Wendy, the Roman Catholic nun
0:00:24 > 0:00:28who has opened thousands of eyes to the pleasures of paintings.
0:00:28 > 0:00:32And the TV presenter and style guru Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen.
0:00:32 > 0:00:37Now his books include Display, Design Rules, Home Front
0:00:37 > 0:00:41and A Pinch Of Posh, which gives us a rough idea of what he's about.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Thank you both for joining us.
0:00:43 > 0:00:44APPLAUSE
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Let's start with your childhood.
0:00:47 > 0:00:53Sister Wendy, you were actually born in South Africa but brought up in Scotland.
0:00:53 > 0:00:58I was two when my father decided he wanted to be a doctor.
0:00:58 > 0:01:01So he took my mother and myself and we went to Edinburgh.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03I loved Edinburgh.
0:01:03 > 0:01:07Now I read a great deal as a child. I read at least two books a day.
0:01:07 > 0:01:11- Good heavens.- And after school - this is back in South Africa again,
0:01:11 > 0:01:14where we returned when I was about eight -
0:01:14 > 0:01:18I used to go straight to the Carnegie Library that our little town
0:01:18 > 0:01:19was lucky enough to have.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Did you not have friends at that time or were you too busy reading?
0:01:23 > 0:01:30Well, I did have friends, but I thought inviting a friend to come and play meant that you provided her
0:01:30 > 0:01:36with a book and you got your book and you both sat there reading.
0:01:36 > 0:01:38Laurence, you were brought up in London.
0:01:38 > 0:01:41- Your father was an orthopaedic surgeon.- He was.- Your mother?
0:01:41 > 0:01:47My mother was a teacher and she was very involved in pioneering
0:01:47 > 0:01:51a lot of the early research into dyslexia.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53- Did you read a lot as a child?- Yes.
0:01:53 > 0:01:56I used to enjoy reading enormously.
0:01:56 > 0:02:01And I can remember reading as much as I possibly could,
0:02:01 > 0:02:02you know, feeling very much...
0:02:02 > 0:02:07My parents were very quick to encourage me to read anything that was in the bookshelves.
0:02:07 > 0:02:14My mother read a lot of Iris Murdoch and Muriel Spark - a lot of female authors.
0:02:14 > 0:02:20But I can remember my father's study having absolutely no fiction in it whatsoever.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23Sister Wendy, you're starting with Agatha Christie,
0:02:23 > 0:02:24Death On The Nile.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26Can you give us the plot
0:02:26 > 0:02:28in a few sentences without the end?
0:02:28 > 0:02:30You have a beautiful young man, Simon,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33and here you have the beginnings of the story because
0:02:33 > 0:02:37Nanette, who has everything, takes Jacqueline's Simon and marries him
0:02:37 > 0:02:39and they go off on their honeymoon on the Nile.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43Jacqueline pursues them ever step of the way.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47And then, of course, somebody gets killed, I won't say whom,
0:02:47 > 0:02:51and somebody kills that somebody.
0:02:51 > 0:02:54And there's a delightful working out of how it all happens
0:02:54 > 0:02:57and I think the wool is pulled over our eyes right till the end.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00There's so many suspects.
0:03:00 > 0:03:03Were you never tempted just to go to the last two pages?
0:03:03 > 0:03:07Oh, no. I used to keep my hand on the books,
0:03:07 > 0:03:12cos I read so quickly, so I wouldn't jump too quickly to the next page.
0:03:12 > 0:03:14Have you re-read Agatha Christie?
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Oh, I've read, I've re-read Agatha many times.
0:03:17 > 0:03:24And in a way it's important for me because I think it was from her I got my great love of detective fiction.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28Laurence, your first book you discovered when you were ten,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31but you still have it by your side today.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34It's A Dictionary Of Subjects And Symbols In Art by James Hall.
0:03:34 > 0:03:35Tell us about it.
0:03:35 > 0:03:37Should I ever be able to go back
0:03:37 > 0:03:40and meet myself as a ten-year-old, we wouldn't get on.
0:03:40 > 0:03:43- Precocious?- I was very... I was going to slag off
0:03:43 > 0:03:47the fact that I was in a velvet suit and then I realised I still am!
0:03:47 > 0:03:49I was mildly attracted by the cover,
0:03:49 > 0:03:51which I'm glad to see hasn't changed much.
0:03:51 > 0:03:55- Rubens on the cover there. - Lots of pearly female flesh there.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58But it is, to be fair... It is a bit of a train timetable, isn't it,
0:03:58 > 0:04:01- in terms of art books? Because it's a dictionary.- It is.
0:04:01 > 0:04:06- Very much a dictionary.- It's the art historical version of twitching
0:04:06 > 0:04:13but I used it quite early on as one of my major plays in the courtship ritual -
0:04:13 > 0:04:16I would... Potential girlfriends would be asked to test me
0:04:16 > 0:04:19from any random page. So you've got to do it now.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Did they last, the girlfriends?
0:04:21 > 0:04:25Occasionally. One, I'm still married to. That's 25 years...
0:04:25 > 0:04:28- It wasn't too bad. You've read it from cover to cover?- Yeah.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30If I tested you now, how would you do?
0:04:30 > 0:04:32Let's keep our fingers crossed.
0:04:32 > 0:04:37OK. So if I say to you, Laurence - I'm quite good at asking questions -
0:04:37 > 0:04:40- Gismonda.- Gismonda?
0:04:40 > 0:04:44It's, erm... Mmm... No. Sorry, can I phone a friend, please, Anne?
0:04:44 > 0:04:49- You see, you wouldn't be so good at dating. I'll try you on something else.- No, I'm getting old.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51OK, how about serpents?
0:04:51 > 0:04:58I mean, symbol of intelligence and of knowledge
0:04:58 > 0:05:02but also the anti-knowledge of the Garden of Eden.
0:05:02 > 0:05:05Wrapped around a staff to denote mercury.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07And Asclepius the God of healing.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12- I was going to say, that's one though isn't it, Asclepius? - Another example.
0:05:12 > 0:05:13Of a serpent? Medusa.
0:05:13 > 0:05:16Sister Wendy, your turn.
0:05:16 > 0:05:21St George killed a serpent, which was another term for dragon.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25- Yep.- Maybe Sister Wendy's better than you are.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28Oh, no, no, no, that's not true.
0:05:28 > 0:05:33But I have used the book quite a lot because it's so valuable when you're looking at a symbol
0:05:33 > 0:05:37that you can't understand, you look it up and you know, and you remember the story.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40That's the thing and it's the only book from my childhood that I've still got.
0:05:40 > 0:05:45It's not too complicated but it allows you to read a painting
0:05:45 > 0:05:49on a basic level and then add your own interpretation.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52Sister Wendy, you went to Oxford.
0:05:52 > 0:05:57You studied English, so how did art come into it?
0:05:57 > 0:06:00Well, nuns have to earn their living.
0:06:00 > 0:06:05- So you... So you were a nun by the time you went to Oxford?- Oh, yes.
0:06:05 > 0:06:06I entered the minute I could.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09I was... I was not quite 17.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12And I taught for many years.
0:06:12 > 0:06:18Then I got permission to live in solitude, a life of prayer, where you still had to earn your living,
0:06:18 > 0:06:20and I thought I might write a book about art.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23Your next choice is Spiritual Letters
0:06:23 > 0:06:26by Abbot Chapman. Tell us about Abbot Chapman.
0:06:26 > 0:06:31Well, Abbot Chapman was a Benedictine Abbot
0:06:31 > 0:06:34and all those letters are about prayer.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38Now I longed to become a nun and I found the convent
0:06:38 > 0:06:41was a very welcoming and happy place.
0:06:41 > 0:06:44But I wanted to pray and so did they,
0:06:44 > 0:06:47but they had different ideas about prayer.
0:06:47 > 0:06:52You call this a life saver at a certain time in your novitiate, don't you?
0:06:52 > 0:06:57Yes. Because when I was blocked by the fact that I was expected
0:06:57 > 0:07:00to prepare prayer and that God...
0:07:00 > 0:07:05God is a great king with whom you approach with all your thoughts ready,
0:07:05 > 0:07:08and I couldn't do it,
0:07:08 > 0:07:12because, from babyhood, I'd been in the presence of God
0:07:12 > 0:07:16and I didn't know who to turn to for help so I turned to a book
0:07:16 > 0:07:19and Abbot Chapman solved all my problems.
0:07:19 > 0:07:24It comes in three parts because there's letters to lay people
0:07:24 > 0:07:28and there's letters to priests and then there's letters to a Jesuit.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31- A Jesuit.- It is quite simplistic.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35This is from his letters... Well, it doesn't say who he's writing to,
0:07:35 > 0:07:40but it's a lay person and he says, "I can't help advising you to pray.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44"The longer one prays the better it goes, but when it goes badly,
0:07:44 > 0:07:49"it goes well, for it becomes a continued humiliation."
0:07:49 > 0:07:54In other words, you mustn't expect how you feel to tell you what your prayer is like.
0:07:54 > 0:07:56You're there for God, not for yourself.
0:07:56 > 0:08:00And when you look at it now, does it impress you in the same way?
0:08:00 > 0:08:06No. I could see why I had been reassured by it, cos it was saying some of the things I deeply believe,
0:08:06 > 0:08:09but so little of them, and a lot of it is technical.
0:08:09 > 0:08:14Still, if anyone wants to read a good sensible letter on prayer, turn to Abbot Chapman.
0:08:14 > 0:08:16OK, Spiritual Letters.
0:08:16 > 0:08:22- Now it's interesting how you live your life as a nun because that's not conventional, is it?- No.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27You live in a caravan, not with your own order, which is the Notre Dame order, but in
0:08:27 > 0:08:34the grounds of a Carmelite convent, and lead, for some of the time, a very solitary life, don't you?
0:08:34 > 0:08:42Well, my own order agreed that I should leave their work,
0:08:42 > 0:08:46and you can't say you're a Sister of Notre Dame if you're not teaching.
0:08:46 > 0:08:51They would remove the burden and allow me the privilege of living in solitude.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54So, I don't see anybody.
0:08:54 > 0:09:00Just occasionally there are these interruptions, as we're having now,
0:09:00 > 0:09:04but for months on end, I just see the sister who looks after me once a day.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06Could you live with solitude, Laurence?
0:09:06 > 0:09:10I have to say, I like it noisy. I like, sort of,
0:09:10 > 0:09:14social distraction and a lot of very muddy noisy spaniels, that's fine.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18That's fine. Because everybody's vocation is different.
0:09:18 > 0:09:23Laurence has mentioned his spaniels - a cat, a dog?
0:09:23 > 0:09:26All I've got, I'm very fond of cats and I've been offered
0:09:26 > 0:09:32some very beautiful kittens but I say I can't live with another person.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35- Not even a cat, Sister Wendy? - A cat is a person.
0:09:35 > 0:09:36Oh, no, no, it's unthinkable.
0:09:36 > 0:09:40That's completely ruined your Christmas present. Guess what I'd got you?
0:09:40 > 0:09:44Laurence, your next choice is Venice by Jan Morris.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47It's a very much celebrated travel book. Tell us about it.
0:09:47 > 0:09:53It is extremely evocative I think and it's incredibly good
0:09:53 > 0:09:56about the Venice that I love, particularly,
0:09:56 > 0:10:01which is when there's virtually no-one there and Venice, you know,
0:10:01 > 0:10:05for most people it always seems as if it's full of people but actually,
0:10:05 > 0:10:11particularly in the winter, but even in the evenings, it's not a late-night city at all.
0:10:11 > 0:10:16You can get quite lost, you can get quite alone, you can get quite lonely in Venice.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19I know you've got a favourite bit.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23I think this is wonderful, this bit, because it does celebrate the fact
0:10:23 > 0:10:27that Venice has always been in peril, it's always been getting old.
0:10:27 > 0:10:33The buildings of Venice are mostly very old and sometimes very decrepit and for centuries it has been
0:10:33 > 0:10:36a popular supposition that Venice will one day disappear
0:10:36 > 0:10:38altogether beneath the waters of her lagoon.
0:10:38 > 0:10:45She sprang from the sea 15 centuries ago and to round her story off aesthetically - so many a writer
0:10:45 > 0:10:51and artist has failed - she only needs to sink into the salt again with a gurgle and a moan.
0:10:51 > 0:10:57And there is that feeling that you're enjoying it then but it might not still be there.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02It's challenged, it's delicate, it's like a mayfly.
0:11:02 > 0:11:06It is, I think, the definitive book on Venice and I think the fact
0:11:06 > 0:11:12that it was written, predominantly written, in the '60s, it feels much more timeless.
0:11:12 > 0:11:19In fact, it was 1960 and Jan Morris was not Jan Morris at the time - Jan Morris was James Morris.
0:11:19 > 0:11:22Yeah, I have to admit, I mean, I've re-read it and I think
0:11:22 > 0:11:27that's a good idea because when I first read it, I was, in a very stupid schoolboy puerile way,
0:11:27 > 0:11:32trying to work out, you know, whether it was Jan or James saying this or reacting like this.
0:11:32 > 0:11:38Well, it was during the '60s - in fact, I knew him as a foreign correspondent then. It was towards
0:11:38 > 0:11:44the end of the '60s that he changed sex and wrote a very good book called Conundrums,
0:11:44 > 0:11:47didn't he, about it. Do you go back to Venice often?
0:11:47 > 0:11:52Yes, we go a lot, actually. We go, and particularly in the winter.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54- Your favourite city in the world? - One of them, yes.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56Yeah, it probably is. That and Las Vegas.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00Sister Wendy, Venice, Las Vegas, which do you prefer?
0:12:00 > 0:12:03- You'd love Vegas. - I would not love Vegas.
0:12:03 > 0:12:04You really would.
0:12:04 > 0:12:08You see, when I go to a city, all I ever see
0:12:08 > 0:12:12are the art galleries and the church I go to mass in the morning to.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16So people say, you went to Cairo? What did you think of the pyramids?
0:12:16 > 0:12:19I never saw the pyramids. I was looking at the museums.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23You went to Venice, what did you think of this and that? I never saw them.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26And since Las Vegas hasn't got all that much in the way of art,
0:12:26 > 0:12:30it's got some, I don't think it would be worth my while going there.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32- But Venice, you love.- Oh, yes.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36Sister Wendy, your next choice, pretty heavy tome,
0:12:36 > 0:12:41it's The Duty of Delight - it's the diaries of Dorothy Day.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43Quite recently published.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46Who was she?
0:12:46 > 0:12:49She was an American journalist and writer
0:12:49 > 0:12:56during the 20th century who co-founded a magazine, a newspaper, called the Catholic Worker
0:12:56 > 0:13:01and set up Catholic Worker homes in New York and around America.
0:13:01 > 0:13:07A wonderful woman and the very title of those diaries - The Duty of Delight.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11That it's our duty to enjoy life.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14- And you only discovered it quite recently?- Yes, I did.
0:13:14 > 0:13:21The publisher sent it to me, and for the first time I thought, "This is what it means to be holy."
0:13:21 > 0:13:26Because here was a woman living in the most appalling circumstances
0:13:26 > 0:13:29with practically no back up.
0:13:29 > 0:13:34A passionate woman who would love to have had friends and support, she didn't get them, and she took
0:13:34 > 0:13:41that with sweetness and courage, and clung to God and it's so difficult to write about holy things without
0:13:41 > 0:13:47sounding pious or sanctimonious or as if you're preaching to somebody - she never does.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Perhaps you'll choose a little bit to read to us.
0:13:58 > 0:14:01Well, this is Dorothy on August 7th.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05"My ailments, for these last two weeks -
0:14:05 > 0:14:11"sore throat, coughing at night, retching spasmodic, dry, very disagreeable.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16"And always when I fine comb my hair, a few lice in the head.
0:14:16 > 0:14:21"Long talk with Sister Donald, she's very quiet.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24"No sentimentality and no judging.
0:14:24 > 0:14:31"She has no delusions about being able to do much except to begin with herself.
0:14:31 > 0:14:37"But two exponents of the sentimental approach to our work were in yesterday, M and T.
0:14:37 > 0:14:39"Hard to keep them out.
0:14:39 > 0:14:41"They at least are persevering.
0:14:41 > 0:14:46"If they refuse to go, to give us up, we may be stuck with them.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48"But that may be God's will too."
0:14:48 > 0:14:55- Lovely. Lovely. Is God in your life, Laurence?- Not, erm...
0:14:55 > 0:14:58- Not explicitly.- OK, well done.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02Sister Wendy, the life of somebody like Dorothy Day,
0:15:02 > 0:15:07very much in the community, is a contrast to the life you've chosen.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11Do you ever hanker for being out and spreading the word, as it were?
0:15:11 > 0:15:14Oh, no, no, no. I do not hanker.
0:15:14 > 0:15:18I give great thanks that I'm not called to this.
0:15:18 > 0:15:20- Yeah.- She wanted to pray and she had no time.
0:15:20 > 0:15:22She had to get up at night to do it.
0:15:22 > 0:15:29I need the kind of luxury of swimming, swimming in God, as it were, freely.
0:15:29 > 0:15:35And then you have this contrasting life when you appear on television and you're in London
0:15:35 > 0:15:39and it's quite racy and lively. Do you enjoy that too?
0:15:39 > 0:15:43Sounds very rude to say, Anne, but no, not really.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45- OK.- This is a pretend me.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47It's a very nice one, Sister Wendy.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51- Thank you.- Laurence, your next book is a biography.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53It's the biography of Aubrey Beardsley
0:15:53 > 0:15:56by Stephen Calloway. Tell us about him.
0:15:56 > 0:16:00Well, I think Aubrey Beardsley is the most extraordinary person.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05He died tragically young in 1898.
0:16:05 > 0:16:10Really, he'd only been working for about three or four years as a graphic artist.
0:16:10 > 0:16:16He developed a reputation very quickly for a kind of decadence
0:16:16 > 0:16:20a badness, a wickedness. But really, I think, perhaps it was his circle
0:16:20 > 0:16:24and of course it was all happening at the same time as the trial
0:16:24 > 0:16:28of Oscar Wilde, but Aubrey Beardsley, I believe, was one of the most original
0:16:28 > 0:16:31graphic talents that Britain has ever produced and certainly
0:16:31 > 0:16:36there was a point in 1893 where he suddenly started creating a new way
0:16:36 > 0:16:42of drawing which was then reproduced all over the world and really created what we now see as
0:16:42 > 0:16:48being art nouveau, which then led on to this new attitude, this kind of modern attitude to art.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52Just the black and white that's so dominant at the moment, in fashion,
0:16:52 > 0:16:56and in interiors, is a tribute, is a homage to him, I think.
0:16:56 > 0:17:01What about Beardsley, for you, Sister Wendy?
0:17:01 > 0:17:07Well, I think the graphic strength and grace and wit of his line is exceptional.
0:17:07 > 0:17:14There's never been an artist whose hand was so ready to please the eye.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17Now I won't go further than that, Anne.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19He's not top of your list then?
0:17:19 > 0:17:23It's a principle of mine - never say anything that might
0:17:23 > 0:17:26damage an enthusiasm.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29Now I'm sure there are thousands and thousands of people
0:17:29 > 0:17:35who revere Beardsley, and hurrah for that. Here is one. Well done, lad.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37THEY LAUGH
0:17:37 > 0:17:40We'll go on to Sister Wendy's next book.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42It's TJ Clark's The Sight Of Death.
0:17:42 > 0:17:44Not the most inspiring title.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47It's a wrong title too. It gives you no idea of the book.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49Can you describe it then?
0:17:49 > 0:17:52Yes. This man is an art historian.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56A very famous art historian who mainly writes books about
0:17:56 > 0:18:01sociological approaches to art, which are not my main interest.
0:18:01 > 0:18:06But he had a sabbatical at the Getty Museum in Los Angeles
0:18:06 > 0:18:11and wandering around it very early on to his stay, he found
0:18:11 > 0:18:13that they recently bought
0:18:13 > 0:18:16a Poussin, Landscape With A Calm,
0:18:16 > 0:18:18and had borrowed, as a match to it,
0:18:18 > 0:18:24the National Gallery, Landscape With A Man Killed By A Snake.
0:18:24 > 0:18:30And, this entire book features looking and discovering
0:18:30 > 0:18:31what it is about these two pictures?
0:18:31 > 0:18:34That was what was so exciting to me.
0:18:34 > 0:18:41Because everything I've written has been about looking and responding.
0:18:41 > 0:18:45But when I read that book, I realised I'd never really looked at all.
0:18:45 > 0:18:50But he came day after day in all the different lights and darks
0:18:50 > 0:18:54of the Californian time looking and looking at these two works.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56Nothing but these two works.
0:18:56 > 0:19:01And each time he saw something deeper and more beautiful.
0:19:01 > 0:19:03He never got to the end of them.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06Is it vital to see the original
0:19:06 > 0:19:08or can you live with reproductions?
0:19:08 > 0:19:12It's not vital. It's very desirable.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15- It helps.- But most people can't see the originals.
0:19:15 > 0:19:19And why reject bread, if you're only given half a loaf?
0:19:19 > 0:19:21That's better than nothing.
0:19:21 > 0:19:22Very well said.
0:19:22 > 0:19:26Laurence, your next choice, it's the one novel you've chosen.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28It's Brideshead Revisited
0:19:28 > 0:19:30by Evelyn Waugh. Tell us about this.
0:19:30 > 0:19:31It's quite big
0:19:31 > 0:19:34and slow-moving and cumbersome which I like
0:19:34 > 0:19:36and I think the description is very good.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39I read it before the original, you know,
0:19:39 > 0:19:43the big 1980s series.
0:19:43 > 0:19:46Give us a rough idea for those who haven't seen any films,
0:19:46 > 0:19:48or television series, or read the book.
0:19:48 > 0:19:54Well, baldly, it's about one man, Charles Ryder, who is very middle class
0:19:54 > 0:19:58falling in love with an aristocratic family who are Catholic
0:19:58 > 0:20:03and that makes them feel very different and special in the book.
0:20:03 > 0:20:10And, originally, he comes into it via Sebastian the son, but ends up
0:20:10 > 0:20:13becoming much more involved with the daughter, Julia.
0:20:13 > 0:20:19Let's have a look at, famously, Sebastian with his teddy bear.
0:20:19 > 0:20:20Ah, here's Lord Sebastian.
0:20:20 > 0:20:26Well, I mustn't stand here talking, not with pin cushions to get.
0:20:28 > 0:20:32Morning, Charles. What in the world is happening at your college?
0:20:32 > 0:20:35Is there a circus? We've seen everything except elephants.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39I must say, the whole of Oxford's becoming very peculiar suddenly.
0:20:39 > 0:20:42Last night it was pullulating with women.
0:20:42 > 0:20:47You're to come away with me, at once, out of danger.
0:20:47 > 0:20:48I've a motorcar outside,
0:20:48 > 0:20:52a basket of strawberries and a bottle of Chateau Perigord
0:20:52 > 0:20:55which is not a wine you've ever tasted so don't pretend.
0:20:55 > 0:20:57It's heaven with strawberries.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59I shall go and get my things.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05Interesting. That's Jeremy Irons and Anthony Andrews,
0:21:05 > 0:21:07and it hasn't really dated, has it?
0:21:07 > 0:21:11- It was incredibly faithful to the book.- How old were you?
0:21:12 > 0:21:17I must have been about 16, I think, when I first encountered it.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19Have you read it, Sister Wendy?
0:21:19 > 0:21:25- I have.- Are you an Evelyn Waugh fan? He was a convert to Catholicism.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Yes.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29I wonder what she's saying "yes" to?
0:21:29 > 0:21:34- I'm agreeing with Anne. He was a convert to Catholicism.- Full stop.
0:21:34 > 0:21:38And a very enthusiastic Catholic of the old school.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42I think he's one of the wittiest and funniest of men.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45Is there a "but" coming?
0:21:45 > 0:21:50Well, you see, I'm hog-tied by this "never destroy an enthusiasm."
0:21:51 > 0:21:55- So I don't like to say.- Go on.
0:21:57 > 0:22:03Well, I think Brideshead Revisited deserves its reputation
0:22:03 > 0:22:11for a romantic view of a romantic place or places.
0:22:11 > 0:22:17Because perhaps I haven't got romance in my soul, it's never all that pleased me.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21Also, I found the Catholicism so...
0:22:21 > 0:22:27trivial, really, as opposed to the deep sort of fundamentals of what it's all about.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30But the religion is quite modish, it's quite...
0:22:30 > 0:22:34Which is the one thing that Christianity isn't, you see? It isn't modish.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37In the book, it feels like a style statement all the time.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40I know, and the upper class are best at it.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42You're very tactful.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45We've had books that have inspired you, ones you love,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48and we also want to hear about books you might keep reading.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51Laurence, yours is a guilty pleasure.
0:22:51 > 0:22:52It's Eloise.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54Yes, so not terribly grown-up,
0:22:54 > 0:22:58and, actually, probably the naughtiest book
0:22:58 > 0:23:01that I've ever read. I didn't grow up with Eloise at all.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04- Tell us about her. - Written in the 1950s,
0:23:04 > 0:23:07by a very glamorous lady called Kay Thompson,
0:23:07 > 0:23:11who I think was a sort of Hollywood B-movie actress,
0:23:11 > 0:23:15very elegant, but she created this extraordinarily spoilt
0:23:15 > 0:23:17and very, very naughty character
0:23:17 > 0:23:21called Eloise who lived in a suite at the Plaza in New York,
0:23:21 > 0:23:24but then took her British nanny on various jaunts
0:23:24 > 0:23:31to Moscow and to Paris and it's written in this extraordinarily naughty, very breathless way.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35There are some wonderful illustrations by Hilary Knight.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39The illustrations were very much part of it and very fashionable.
0:23:39 > 0:23:42Eloise in Paris, there's a section where Eloise goes for a fitting
0:23:42 > 0:23:45with Christian Dior, and basically it was
0:23:45 > 0:23:48given to Hermione, my youngest,
0:23:48 > 0:23:53by one of her godmothers and it became an absolute joy to read.
0:23:53 > 0:23:57But, you know, we'd read several books at bedtime
0:23:57 > 0:24:01because it was just so fun and subversive.
0:24:01 > 0:24:08It's deeply, deeply subversive. Hermione is the spit of Eloise.
0:24:08 > 0:24:13Sister Wendy, your next book, which is quite a heavy book,
0:24:13 > 0:24:15it's Weitzmann's book on icons.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Tell us about this one.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21Well, I used to have a bit of a problem with icons.
0:24:21 > 0:24:26How they sort of fitted into art history. I began
0:24:26 > 0:24:31to look into this wonderful world of the early icons.
0:24:31 > 0:24:34Now these are icons before they were icons, if you understand me.
0:24:34 > 0:24:36What date are we giving?
0:24:36 > 0:24:40We're talking now the fifth-sixth-seventh century.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43And they had no...
0:24:43 > 0:24:48visual images of Christ and the Saints.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50And they wanted them.
0:24:50 > 0:24:56- Here's one.- Yes, now this is... This is the wonderful Pantocrater from Mount Sinai.
0:24:56 > 0:24:58This book is about the icons of Mount Sinai
0:24:58 > 0:25:00where nearly all the early icons are.
0:25:00 > 0:25:06And that's a very great image of Jesus.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09It has all the tenderness
0:25:09 > 0:25:13and compassion and yet strength and power
0:25:13 > 0:25:18and he's set in a real world, which the later icons don't set him in.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21This is a real discovery to me and I didn't realise that
0:25:21 > 0:25:23they got more formulaic.
0:25:23 > 0:25:26- I didn't realise they got so much tighter.- Much more.
0:25:26 > 0:25:27Originally, they were quite expressive.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30- That's an incredibly expressive face.- Isn't it?
0:25:30 > 0:25:33Almost contemporary. Very, very powerful.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36- Could I show another one, Anne? - Of course.
0:25:36 > 0:25:40This one has been moved from Mount Sinai - but it was there - to Kiev.
0:25:40 > 0:25:42This is the Virgin and Child
0:25:42 > 0:25:44as we never paint now.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46The later icons haven't got that look
0:25:46 > 0:25:49on Mary's face of emotion, almost fear,
0:25:49 > 0:25:51and she's clutching the child.
0:25:51 > 0:25:54And the mother's trying to clutch him back.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56Do you have photographs of icons in your caravan?
0:25:56 > 0:25:58Oh, yes.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01- You've brought one? - Well, this is a traditional icon.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04I've got lots of things in my pockets.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07They're very good, nun's habits, for carrying.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10- Oh, they're so useful.- I have sometimes wondered, and now we know.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14It's an icon of a guardian angel
0:26:14 > 0:26:16with a young female saint and a young theologian.
0:26:16 > 0:26:21But this is not one of the great, great icons but it gives me great joy
0:26:21 > 0:26:23that they're praying away there in my pocket.
0:26:23 > 0:26:28That's lovely. Now, when you think about your book choices,
0:26:28 > 0:26:32Laurence, that you've selected, what does it tell us about you?
0:26:32 > 0:26:37I'm suddenly struck by how predominately frivolous it is.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40- Oh, no.- Compared to my friend here.
0:26:40 > 0:26:44And, Sister Wendy, your book choices, what do you think it tells us about you?
0:26:44 > 0:26:48I don't think it tells you very much, really. Which I would like.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51It tells you that I like reading,
0:26:51 > 0:26:53that I like looking.
0:26:53 > 0:26:58Actually, what's interesting, Sister Wendy, is that you're happy to go on learning.
0:26:58 > 0:27:00Oh, yes. I'm only 81.
0:27:00 > 0:27:02LAUGHTER
0:27:02 > 0:27:07And if you had to choose, Laurence, just one book to recommend, which would it be?
0:27:07 > 0:27:10I think it has to be the Jan Morris, Venice. If you've not read it, you should.
0:27:10 > 0:27:16- Yeah, wonderful book. Sister Wendy, what would you select to recommend? - This is very difficult.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20It's no good telling people the Weitzmann because it's out of print.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23You can pick one of mine if you want - Eloise or Aubrey Beardsley.
0:27:23 > 0:27:26So kind. So Kind. But no, I think I'll stick with mine.
0:27:31 > 0:27:39I'm very torn between saying everybody has a Duty of Delight to read Dorothy Day,
0:27:39 > 0:27:42cos it will transform their ideas about how to be fully human,
0:27:42 > 0:27:45but, this is such a lovely book, the TJ Clark.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49How to look. How to look at Poussin, or to look at anything.
0:27:49 > 0:27:53So, get Dorothy Day and if you've any money left, get this one.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56Two for the price of one. Well, there you are.
0:27:56 > 0:28:02Thank you, Sister Wendy and Laurence Llewelyn-Bowen, for joining me on My Life In Books.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05APPLAUSE
0:28:05 > 0:28:09And don't forget, there's more about this book series on the BBC website.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12Please, join me again, same time, same place,
0:28:12 > 0:28:15for more stories of lives and books.
0:28:30 > 0:28:33Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd