0:00:11 > 0:00:12APPLAUSE
0:00:16 > 0:00:21Thank you. And welcome to My Life In Books, a chance for my guests to share their favourite reads.
0:00:21 > 0:00:25Joining me tonight, a real Duchess and a screen Countess.
0:00:25 > 0:00:31The Dowager Duchess of Devonshire. The last of the famous Mitford sisters, she's a keen businesswoman
0:00:31 > 0:00:36who transformed the fortunes of Chatsworth, one of the great houses of England.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40Her Grace has kindly tonight asked me to call her Debo.
0:00:40 > 0:00:42And Elizabeth McGovern, the American-born actress
0:00:42 > 0:00:50who recently entranced the nation with a wonderful performance as Lady Grantham in Downton Abbey.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53I am quite outclassed! Thank you both for joining me.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55APPLAUSE
0:00:58 > 0:01:01Debo, have you seen Downton Abbey?
0:01:01 > 0:01:08No, unfortunately not, because I very stupidly thought that they'd get it all wrong.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11- But, of course, they didn't, and I realise now...- I'm not so sure!
0:01:11 > 0:01:16- I realise now that I've missed something. But they'll put it on again.- Yes, they will.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20- Just for you!- I'll have another look.- Let's take a look at a clip.
0:01:24 > 0:01:26Welcome to Downton.
0:01:26 > 0:01:28Lady Grantham, this is so kind of you.
0:01:28 > 0:01:32Not at all, Duke. We're delighted you could spare the time.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35You know my daughter Mary, of course - and Edith -
0:01:35 > 0:01:37but I don't believe you've met my youngest, Sybil.
0:01:37 > 0:01:39Ah. Lady Sybil.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41How do you do?
0:01:41 > 0:01:43Come on in, you must be worn out.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Oh - Lady Grantham, I've a confession to make.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51My man was taken ill just as I was leaving, so I...
0:01:51 > 0:01:54- Well, that won't be a problem, will it, Carson?- Certainly not.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56I shall look after His Grace myself.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59Oh, no, I wouldn't dream of being such a nuisance. Surely a footman...
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Didn't you serve me when I dined with Lady Grantham in London?
0:02:04 > 0:02:06I did, Your Grace.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09Ah. There we are. We shall do very well together, won't we...?
0:02:09 > 0:02:12- Er...Thomas, Your Grace.- Thomas.
0:02:13 > 0:02:18If you'd had the chance, before you played Lady Grantham,
0:02:18 > 0:02:23would you have liked to have received some advice from Debo?
0:02:23 > 0:02:29Well, it did cross my mind on the journey here that I perhaps should
0:02:29 > 0:02:34have read your book before embarking on Downton Abbey because your life
0:02:34 > 0:02:37is such a parallel...
0:02:37 > 0:02:42What struck you most about that sort of life, and the character you were playing?
0:02:43 > 0:02:47- I think it takes a very healthy person to survive it.- Yeah...
0:02:47 > 0:02:49I really do.
0:02:49 > 0:02:55Debo, you ran the great house of Chatsworth for nearly 50 years.
0:02:55 > 0:02:57What do you think it is that has
0:02:57 > 0:03:01increased people's interest in big houses?
0:03:01 > 0:03:03I think there's a fascination...
0:03:03 > 0:03:05When these films come on,
0:03:05 > 0:03:09they're completely fascinated by it for some reason.
0:03:09 > 0:03:14I don't quite know why - because they're just human beings, the same as everybody else.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Chatsworth pre-war, when your father-in-law
0:03:17 > 0:03:19and mother-in-law were there...
0:03:19 > 0:03:23Was it like that, was there that huge division of upstairs, downstairs?
0:03:23 > 0:03:26Oh, there certainly was, but they were, my parents-in-law
0:03:26 > 0:03:32were hardly there at all, because the war started when they were just going to make it much easier to run.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36But it's such a pull, that house,
0:03:36 > 0:03:41that people come back and back and back to see it again,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44to walk in the park, to be alone in the garden...
0:03:44 > 0:03:46Those are the things they love.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49Heaps of people want their ashes scattered there, they really do.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53There must have been plenty of books to choose from, living at Chatsworth.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56There were thousands and thousands and thousands of books.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01Did you keep account of the books, so that they weren't stolen away by guests?
0:04:01 > 0:04:04- No, I'm afraid we didn't, and I'm afraid they were.- Oh!
0:04:04 > 0:04:06Let's start with childhood reads.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09Debo, you had a very unconventional childhood.
0:04:09 > 0:04:13Not much schooling from outside.
0:04:13 > 0:04:15No, thank God!
0:04:15 > 0:04:17I never went to school.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21When I did, it was only for two days and it was so awful.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24The early years, you were taught at home, weren't you?
0:04:24 > 0:04:29Oh, yes. My mother taught us to read and write before we were five.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32And did your father read to you much?
0:04:32 > 0:04:34My father? No.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38But his turn of phrase was absolutely second to none.
0:04:38 > 0:04:42He was so funny. He was the source of all the jokes in our family.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Is it true your father only read one book?
0:04:45 > 0:04:47He read one book.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49It was called White Fang
0:04:49 > 0:04:53and he said it was so good he was never going to read another.
0:04:53 > 0:04:54LAUGHTER
0:04:54 > 0:05:00And I bought one on the internet the other night thinking they'd never have one, and I got it for £2.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02He'd have been so surprised, wouldn't he?
0:05:02 > 0:05:06Elizabeth, tell us a bit about your childhood.
0:05:06 > 0:05:11You were born in Illinois, and then moved to LA where your father was teaching, as a professor -
0:05:11 > 0:05:15- and your mother was a teacher also. - Two teachers.- Yeah.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19So, was it a Hollywood childhood or was it a bookish childhood?
0:05:19 > 0:05:25It was not an LA upbringing per se, and it was - yes, given that both
0:05:25 > 0:05:30parents were teachers, there were books everywhere. It was our life.
0:05:30 > 0:05:32Did they read to you?
0:05:32 > 0:05:36I don't REMEMBER that, but erm...
0:05:36 > 0:05:40I would have thought that it was very likely.
0:05:40 > 0:05:44I think often children can't remember a time when they couldn't read, actually.
0:05:44 > 0:05:49Debo, your first choice is A Hero Of Our Time by Mikhail Lermontov,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52and it's the story of a Russian
0:05:52 > 0:05:55military officer called Pechorin.
0:05:55 > 0:06:00It's about him travelling through the mountainous region between Europe and Asia.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02Can you remember roughly how old you were, when...?
0:06:02 > 0:06:06Well, I think I was sort of 17, 18, very impressionable.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10It was so moving, and the descriptions of Russia were so wonderful.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15Did it give you an idea of a different Russia, or did you have any idea what Russia was like?
0:06:15 > 0:06:18Absolutely none. Just that it was too big.
0:06:18 > 0:06:23My mother used to say, "Don't let's talk about China, it's too big."
0:06:23 > 0:06:24LAUGHTER
0:06:25 > 0:06:28- The hero is a sort of antihero, isn't he?- Yes, he is.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32He's a sort of Byronic figure, sort of restless and bored by everything.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36And he killed a friend in a duel and just thought nothing of it.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40I'm going to read a little bit - this is describing him.
0:06:40 > 0:06:44"A grand fellow, he was, take it from me, only a bit odd.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48"For instance, he'd spend the whole day out hunting in rain or cold.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52"Everyone else would be tired and frozen, but he'd think nothing of it.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55"Yet another time he'd sit in his room
0:06:55 > 0:06:58"and at the least puff of wind reckon he'd caught a chill,
0:06:58 > 0:07:02"or a shutter might bang and he'd shiver and turn pale.
0:07:02 > 0:07:06"Yet I've seen him go for a wild boar single-handed.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09"Sometimes you wouldn't get a word out of him for hours on end,
0:07:09 > 0:07:15"but another time he would tell you stories that made you double up with laughter."
0:07:15 > 0:07:20The denouement was that this man became suddenly and unexpectedly
0:07:20 > 0:07:24very rich, and he could buy anything he wanted, and did.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28And as soon as he'd got the things, he didn't want them any more.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31- Did he remind you of anybody in your own life?- Oh, he certainly did.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35The thing about very rich people
0:07:35 > 0:07:40wanting to buy something desperately, and then of course...
0:07:40 > 0:07:44But it must have been a lesson that you took to heart, because you are somebody whose...
0:07:44 > 0:07:51circle was the rich and the privileged - and yet you knew how to survive it
0:07:51 > 0:07:55and create a very, very happy, fulfilling life.
0:07:55 > 0:08:02- So it must have been a lesson that implanted on your brain very early on.- Well, maybe yes. Maybe it was.
0:08:02 > 0:08:04Elizabeth, your first choice
0:08:04 > 0:08:05is The Black Stallion
0:08:05 > 0:08:07by Walter Farley.
0:08:07 > 0:08:08Now, how old were you
0:08:08 > 0:08:10when you were reading this?
0:08:10 > 0:08:13- Eight or nine, probably. Or ten. - Tell us what it's about.
0:08:13 > 0:08:18It's a series of books about this wonderful relationship
0:08:18 > 0:08:23between a boy and a horse on an island.
0:08:24 > 0:08:29So I think it was a sort of romantic fantasy for me to have this
0:08:29 > 0:08:36marvellous communication that was beyond words with this beautiful black stallion.
0:08:36 > 0:08:37Is it a boys' book, really?
0:08:37 > 0:08:43Er, I don't know statistically if more boys read it than girls. Probably...
0:08:43 > 0:08:45Can you read us a little bit?
0:08:48 > 0:08:51"Alec turned to the Black" - the horse...
0:08:51 > 0:08:55"'This is our chance, Black,' he said, 'Don't let me down'.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57"He could see the stallion was nervous.
0:08:57 > 0:09:03"The horse had learned to trust him, but his natural instinct still warned him against the others.
0:09:03 > 0:09:05"Soothingly, Alec spoke to him.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08"Slowly he backed away.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11"The Black raised his head nervously, then followed.
0:09:11 > 0:09:16"As the boy neared the boat, the stallion stopped."
0:09:17 > 0:09:18Lovely.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21Debo, you're a famous rider -
0:09:21 > 0:09:23I mean, you've hunted for many years.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27Well, I lived for fox hunting and really nothing else.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29What is it about hunting that excites you?
0:09:29 > 0:09:34Oh, it's absolutely the most exciting thing in the world, I suppose.
0:09:34 > 0:09:41There's something about fox hunting which is just...makes your hair go like that at the back of your neck.
0:09:41 > 0:09:44Your next choice is called Rio Grande's Last Race
0:09:44 > 0:09:46And Other Verses,
0:09:46 > 0:09:47it's Andrew Barton Paterson.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49Why did you choose this?
0:09:49 > 0:09:55Well, somebody read it to me, and it's so tragic I rather wish I hadn't ever read it.
0:09:55 > 0:10:03It was a very famous racehorse in the story, and a famous rider on it, and they were going round Aintree,
0:10:03 > 0:10:08and there was a stone wall, and they jumped it perfectly the first time.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11And the next time, they all crowded round him
0:10:11 > 0:10:17and somebody shouted, "Give Rio Grande a chance, give him a chance." And er...
0:10:17 > 0:10:24they pushed him into the side and he went through the wall and was killed, and so was his rider.
0:10:24 > 0:10:29And it's just somehow so tragic, cos he had been such a wonderful horse.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33Elizabeth, would you read us a little from...? It's the first poem in the book.
0:10:34 > 0:10:37And this is his sad end, this bit?
0:10:37 > 0:10:40So sorry... So sorry, I can't read.
0:10:40 > 0:10:41His tragic end.
0:10:41 > 0:10:47"He looked to left and looked to right, as though men rode beside,
0:10:47 > 0:10:51"And Rio Grande with foam flecks white
0:10:51 > 0:10:53"Raced at his jumps in headlong flight
0:10:53 > 0:10:57"and cleared them in his stride.
0:10:57 > 0:11:02"But when they reached the big stone wall, down went the bridle hand.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05"And loud we heard Macpherson call,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08"'Make room or half the field will fall,
0:11:08 > 0:11:11"'Make room for Rio Grande!'
0:11:11 > 0:11:13"'He's down! He's down!'
0:11:13 > 0:11:18"And horse and man lay quiet, side by side,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21"no need the pallid face to scan.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25"We knew with Rio Grande he ran,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27"The race that dead men ride."
0:11:27 > 0:11:33- Oh! Did it make you cry? - Well, of course. Floods. Floods.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35Are you a crier, generally?
0:11:35 > 0:11:37Well, I am at that sort of thing.
0:11:37 > 0:11:42- Animals?- Well, sort of, when they've been so wonderful.
0:11:42 > 0:11:48- There's something about the beauty of a horse too, that is beyond all words, isn't it?- It is.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51- Did you learn poetry off by heart? - Yes, we had to.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56My mother followed something called the Parents' National Education Union.
0:11:56 > 0:12:00So there was a curriculum that she was following when she was teaching you at home?
0:12:00 > 0:12:02Yes, there was.
0:12:02 > 0:12:07Before we move on from childhood - Debo, did you read to YOUR children when they were small?
0:12:07 > 0:12:09No, because we had a nanny who was far better at it than me
0:12:09 > 0:12:15and she taught them botany, she taught them all kinds of things, took them camping...
0:12:15 > 0:12:17And the badgers used to come round and, you know,
0:12:17 > 0:12:20it was just a marvellous childhood when she was there.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23Far, far better than I ever could have been.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27There's a picture, here, of you when the children were young
0:12:27 > 0:12:29with Chatsworth in the background.
0:12:29 > 0:12:33Had you moved in there recently, at that time?
0:12:33 > 0:12:38Yes, we had. We moved in 1959,
0:12:38 > 0:12:41and I was there for 46 years and a month.
0:12:41 > 0:12:45Elizabeth, you married an Englishman. Your life was transformed.
0:12:45 > 0:12:51You moved over here and your children were brought up over here. Did you read to them when they were young?
0:12:51 > 0:12:52Oh, yes.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54They won't remember!
0:12:54 > 0:12:56Did they choose, or did you?
0:12:57 > 0:12:59I did.
0:12:59 > 0:13:03Well, I was forced to read the Harry Potters of course, but erm...
0:13:04 > 0:13:07..but aside from that, we read a lot.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11Your next book - James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist
0:13:11 > 0:13:13As A Young Man.
0:13:13 > 0:13:15You were 15 when you read this.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Could you give us the plot in ten seconds?
0:13:20 > 0:13:23Irish boy finds his true nature
0:13:23 > 0:13:27growing up in...religious Dublin.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30So it's er...
0:13:30 > 0:13:33him discovering who he is.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37OK, would you like to read us a passage from it?
0:13:42 > 0:13:47"A wild angel had appeared to him, the angel of mortal youth and beauty.
0:13:47 > 0:13:53"An envoy from the fair courts of life, to throw open before him in an
0:13:53 > 0:13:58"instant of ecstasy the gates of all the ways of error and glory.
0:13:58 > 0:14:03"On, and on, and on, and on.
0:14:03 > 0:14:08"He halted suddenly, and heard his heart in the silence.
0:14:08 > 0:14:12"How far had he walked, what hour was it?"
0:14:12 > 0:14:17Why was it so special to you, that book, at 15?
0:14:17 > 0:14:24I think it gave me a licence to believe that
0:14:24 > 0:14:29the interior monologue that was within me
0:14:29 > 0:14:33was important and relevant and...worth expressing.
0:14:33 > 0:14:38In the same way that this boy discovers
0:14:38 > 0:14:45that his calling in life will be to express the nature of life through his work in art.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49Were you already on the path to becoming an actress by then?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51No, this was long before that.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53Debo, your next choice is an autobiography,
0:14:53 > 0:14:55it was published in 1966.
0:14:55 > 0:14:58It's called A Late Beginner
0:14:58 > 0:14:59by Priscilla Napier.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01Can you tell us about this?
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Well, it's about Priscilla Napier's
0:15:03 > 0:15:04childhood in Egypt,
0:15:04 > 0:15:08and the extraordinary things she noticed.
0:15:08 > 0:15:14Her father was working in Egypt, advising the government
0:15:14 > 0:15:16on matters financial and all that.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19- She wrote it towards the end of her life, didn't she?- Yes.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24She goes back and describes her childhood as if she was still a child...
0:15:24 > 0:15:31And she precipitated herself into wonderful descriptions
0:15:31 > 0:15:34of Egypt and the people there and er...
0:15:34 > 0:15:39it's just so extraordinary to be able to do that and then pretend you're only three.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41Which couldn't have been quite true!
0:15:41 > 0:15:43There's a little bit here...
0:15:43 > 0:15:47"My mother and her sisters were true Victorians.
0:15:47 > 0:15:54"Not in a general way - frightened of battle, murder and sudden death - but perfectly terrified of insects.
0:15:54 > 0:15:59"The discovery of a scorpion in the nursery toy cupboard was, I think, kept from her.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02"'Come and look, Daddy, what there is!
0:16:02 > 0:16:06"'A tiny little lobster, in one of the dolls' teacups.'"
0:16:06 > 0:16:08LAUGHTER
0:16:08 > 0:16:10In your own book, Wait For Me, published last year,
0:16:10 > 0:16:14there are some wonderful descriptions of you and your sisters.
0:16:14 > 0:16:20Nancy was your older sister, and she was 16 years older than you.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22Yes, she was grown up
0:16:22 > 0:16:26and she'd gone to London to go to balls and all the rest of it, you know,
0:16:26 > 0:16:33so she was very, very... Came back with these amazing tales of what she'd been doing in London.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36- Hugely embroidered, like all her tales...- Yeah.
0:16:36 > 0:16:38..but very funny.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41Did it mean that you were a late beginner, being the youngest?
0:16:41 > 0:16:47Yes, it did, because I wasn't the least bit interested in politics and all the others were.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51And there were such rows at the dinner table, and people used to
0:16:51 > 0:16:53go out and bang the door, you know -
0:16:53 > 0:16:58but an absolute blind spot to me, I couldn't be interested in it.
0:16:58 > 0:17:03Elizabeth, your next choice comes at a time when you were going through a big life change.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05It's Middlemarch by George Eliot.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08Well, it was a time in my life
0:17:08 > 0:17:15of much tumult, because I had left America where I'd worked very hard to carve a career,
0:17:15 > 0:17:20and I had made this decision to have a baby in England
0:17:20 > 0:17:25so I was grappling with a lot of life changes, and...
0:17:25 > 0:17:27really to kill time
0:17:27 > 0:17:30I found what looked like the fattest book on the shelf,
0:17:30 > 0:17:37and what I found in it was writing of such great wisdom about
0:17:37 > 0:17:43human interaction and the repercussions of the decisions people make in their life.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46And so much of it has to do with...
0:17:47 > 0:17:50..people making choices about who they marry,
0:17:50 > 0:17:52and er...
0:17:53 > 0:17:56..the great importance of that, for any woman.
0:17:56 > 0:18:02So it gave me a sort of a wise strength at that time.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06Has Downton Abbey made up for the years when
0:18:06 > 0:18:10you had to put your career on hold because of children?
0:18:10 > 0:18:12I would say so, yes.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15I feel very, very happy and proud to be a part of it.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17Debo, your next book
0:18:17 > 0:18:21is a very modern book, but it'll probably be
0:18:21 > 0:18:23classed as a classic very soon.
0:18:23 > 0:18:24It's Alan Bennett's
0:18:24 > 0:18:25The Uncommon Reader.
0:18:25 > 0:18:27He's been to stay, has he?
0:18:27 > 0:18:29No! He wouldn't come to stay -
0:18:29 > 0:18:32I said "Alan, do spend the night here, please do."
0:18:32 > 0:18:38So he said, "No, no. I don't want to do that, I'll go to a crummy 'otel."
0:18:38 > 0:18:39LAUGHTER
0:18:39 > 0:18:43He's so nice and so charming and all that.
0:18:43 > 0:18:48And he somehow has got this completely right, this book about
0:18:48 > 0:18:53the Queen going unexpectedly to the back quarters of Buckingham Palace.
0:18:53 > 0:18:59The travelling library happened to be there, and there was one or two people very interested in looking
0:18:59 > 0:19:05so she'd climbed up the steps, and she went in to look and see what there was.
0:19:05 > 0:19:12And having ploughed through a very heavy book that she was told was going to be wonderful,
0:19:12 > 0:19:18her eye alit I'm glad to say on The Pursuit of Love by Nancy Mitford.
0:19:18 > 0:19:22We've got a little of Alan Bennett here, reading from The Uncommon Reader.
0:19:22 > 0:19:27'Books did not defer. All readers were equal.
0:19:27 > 0:19:31'And this took her back to the beginning of her life.
0:19:31 > 0:19:37'As a girl, one of her greatest thrills had been on VE night, when she and her sister had slipped
0:19:37 > 0:19:42'out of the gates and mingled unrecognised with the crowds.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45'There was something of that, she felt, to reading.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48'It was anonymous. It was shared.
0:19:48 > 0:19:50'It was common.
0:19:50 > 0:19:55'And she, who had led a life apart, now found that she craved it.
0:19:55 > 0:20:01'Here in these pages and between these covers, she could go unrecognised.'
0:20:01 > 0:20:05- Is it a good portrait of the Queen? - I should say, very good.
0:20:05 > 0:20:08Very good, because she's so extraordinarily down to earth,
0:20:08 > 0:20:12and that's just how she would have reacted to the idea
0:20:12 > 0:20:17of all those books round her - which of course she's got far, far more than that of her own.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20I love Alan Bennett, he's...
0:20:20 > 0:20:23That's the best description of reading I've ever heard.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27"It's anonymous. It's shared." That's why it's so beautiful.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29That's it, it's lovely.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33You can leave yourself at the door, and yet you're sharing with other people.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36And Elizabeth, your next choice
0:20:36 > 0:20:40is The Remains Of The Day by Kazuo Ishiguro.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41What happened
0:20:41 > 0:20:43when you were reading this?
0:20:43 > 0:20:45I was in a production
0:20:45 > 0:20:48in New Jersey of Twelfth Night,
0:20:48 > 0:20:53and driving back and forth in the car with the cast we would all carpool together, and...
0:20:53 > 0:20:58it was a group idea to read passages of a book just to make the journey go faster.
0:20:58 > 0:21:03So we all read this to one another. So it was a happy memory, that.
0:21:03 > 0:21:09But at the time I felt that it crystallised my idea of a perfect book.
0:21:09 > 0:21:16Not one passage is extraneous or not beautifully written.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21It's about a butler in service, Stevens, who towards the end of
0:21:21 > 0:21:27his life, doesn't he, sort of looks back and clearly regrets the missed opportunities.
0:21:27 > 0:21:32The story is it dawning on him that he's missed his chance for love,
0:21:32 > 0:21:35and that it was there for him.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40So I suppose it began my fascination with the English character, because I think...
0:21:41 > 0:21:45..in some respects he's writing about, perhaps not the England of
0:21:45 > 0:21:51today, but the England of 40 years ago in which erm...
0:21:51 > 0:21:58people were more interested in living lives of duty, et cetera
0:21:58 > 0:22:03than in letting their emotions dictate their actions.
0:22:03 > 0:22:07And the butler has learned to suffer the damage of that to a certain extent.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10We've got a clip here, and this is a flashback.
0:22:10 > 0:22:16It goes back to the first time that he meets Miss Kenton, who of course he falls in love with,
0:22:16 > 0:22:21and even in this clip, she looks as if she's already in "lurve".
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Well, no gentleman callers allowed, of course.
0:22:24 > 0:22:28You'll forgive my mentioning it, but we have had problems of that sort
0:22:28 > 0:22:30before, from inside the house too.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34The previous housekeeper took it into her head to run off with the under butler.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36Now, if two members of staff happen to fall in love
0:22:36 > 0:22:41and decide to get married, there is nothing one can say, but what I do find a major irritation
0:22:41 > 0:22:46are those persons who are simply going from post to post, looking for romance.
0:22:47 > 0:22:50Housekeepers are particularly guilty here.
0:22:50 > 0:22:53- No offence intended, of course. - None taken.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58I know from my own experience how houses are at sixes and sevens once the staff start marrying each other.
0:22:58 > 0:23:00Yes, indeed...
0:23:00 > 0:23:02- Ahhh!- Ohh.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06And the book, of course, won the Booker Prize in 1989.
0:23:06 > 0:23:09Possibly becoming a classic like Middlemarch, do you think?
0:23:09 > 0:23:13If it were up to me, yes.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17We've had childhood and adolescent books, classic novels and some poetry.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20We're going to move on to guilty pleasures.
0:23:20 > 0:23:25Debo, you go back to your childhood for your final choice.
0:23:25 > 0:23:29And you've actually brought with you, your copy of this book,
0:23:29 > 0:23:31Struwwelpeter.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33It's a German book,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35by Heinrich Hoffmann,
0:23:35 > 0:23:39and it's a pretty scary children's story, isn't it?
0:23:39 > 0:23:41- It certainly is.- Yes.
0:23:41 > 0:23:42Why did you choose it?
0:23:42 > 0:23:46Well, because it's so frightening, and children love being frightened.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48And why is it scary?
0:23:48 > 0:23:53Because they cut off their fingers, they burnt the girls because of the matches...
0:23:53 > 0:23:59- It's punishment.- Harriet And The Matches - she got burnt because
0:23:59 > 0:24:02- she was naughty and did something wrong.- Too right!
0:24:02 > 0:24:04There's a terrifying picture of her running,
0:24:04 > 0:24:05isn't there? Do you remember?
0:24:05 > 0:24:08- Oh, yes.- Really, really frightening.
0:24:08 > 0:24:13- How children survived it I don't know.- I apologise for the frightening books.
0:24:13 > 0:24:14LAUGHTER
0:24:14 > 0:24:15When did you read it, Elizabeth?
0:24:15 > 0:24:22It was in my husband's parents' house, so we'd take the kids there
0:24:22 > 0:24:25and he used to enact the story of the boy who never drank his soup.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28- Do you remember that one? - Yes, I certainly do.
0:24:28 > 0:24:33And wasted away until he died, a stick! And they loved that.
0:24:33 > 0:24:40Elizabeth, we come on to your final book, which you describe as your guilty pleasure.
0:24:40 > 0:24:43Pure enjoyment...
0:24:46 > 0:24:48I love reading recipes...
0:24:48 > 0:24:52but I don't like a lot of fat - literary fat -
0:24:52 > 0:24:55around the recipe itself, I just like reading the recipe.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58Do you dream of cooking, or do you actually cook?
0:24:58 > 0:25:00- I never cook. - LAUGHTER
0:25:00 > 0:25:04Can you show us one recipe that you dream of, then?
0:25:04 > 0:25:09I mean, this to me is just so much fun.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11"Souffle...
0:25:13 > 0:25:16- "A quarter-ounce softened butter. - CHUCKLING
0:25:16 > 0:25:23"Prepare the mould, measure out the ingredients, butter the entire surface of the mould.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27"Roll granulated sugar around in it, to coat the sides and bottom evenly."
0:25:27 > 0:25:31- I just love reading all that! - LAUGHTER
0:25:31 > 0:25:35- Are you a cook, Debo? - I haven't cooked since the war.
0:25:35 > 0:25:36LAUGHTER
0:25:36 > 0:25:38That's how I started my cookery book.
0:25:38 > 0:25:40You wrote a cookery book yourself?
0:25:40 > 0:25:45- Yes.- Ah!- I did. And it still sells, strangely enough.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48Debo, you're breaking the rules cos you've brought another book.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51Well, this is...yes, this is a very strange book.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53It's The Life of Ronald Knox
0:25:53 > 0:25:55by Evelyn Waugh.
0:25:55 > 0:26:00Evelyn was a great friend, and he used to give me all his books as they came out.
0:26:00 > 0:26:06And this thing arrived... and it doesn't look very prepossessing, does it?
0:26:06 > 0:26:09Horrible colour, and everything perfectly beastly about it.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13So I put it on the floor. And a friend of mine was sitting
0:26:13 > 0:26:17next to me on the sofa, picked it up and found this written in it.
0:26:18 > 0:26:20- Can you read it?- Yes...
0:26:21 > 0:26:25"For Darling Debo, with love from Evelyn.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28"You won't find a word in this
0:26:28 > 0:26:32"to offend your Protestant sympathies"!
0:26:32 > 0:26:35Well, that's how it starts. And then, you see,
0:26:35 > 0:26:37you're looking for what's happening,
0:26:37 > 0:26:40and...there are no words in it.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43- LAUGHTER - Isn't that a good book?
0:26:43 > 0:26:47But wasn't it nice of him to do it on purpose...?
0:26:47 > 0:26:52- Wonderful!- He knew I wouldn't look at it, but it was jolly nice of him.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56- So that's my surprise. - That was brilliant.
0:26:56 > 0:27:01And, if you had to choose one of the five books to recommend - which one?
0:27:01 > 0:27:03- Me?- Yes.- Oh, Lord...
0:27:03 > 0:27:05I don't know.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08- I suppose A Late Beginner. - A Late Beginner.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13- I think so.- Priscilla Napier. That's the autobiography published in 1966.
0:27:13 > 0:27:15- Completely wonderful. - Elizabeth, if you had to choose one?
0:27:16 > 0:27:19- Middlemarch.- Middlemarch. - It's a book to live your life by.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23What do you think your book choices say about you?
0:27:23 > 0:27:26I think they...reflect my journey.
0:27:26 > 0:27:30Which is, starting out
0:27:30 > 0:27:34an enormous ego - James Joyce -
0:27:34 > 0:27:36with er...
0:27:36 > 0:27:41a penchant for romantic fantasy - Walter Farley -
0:27:41 > 0:27:46tempered by the wisdom of middle-age, and
0:27:46 > 0:27:50settling into a life of being happily married with kids.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52That's been my...
0:27:52 > 0:27:56personal journey thus far.
0:27:56 > 0:28:00- Debo?- I don't think I can judge that for myself.
0:28:00 > 0:28:06If I may say so, I think what your books say about you is that you've got a terrific sense of humour.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08- Oh, good.- Yes! - LAUGHTER
0:28:09 > 0:28:11That's very nice to hear.
0:28:11 > 0:28:15Don't forget, there's more about the Books series on the BBC website.
0:28:15 > 0:28:20Thank you to Debo, Dowager Duchess of Devonshire, and Elizabeth McGovern -
0:28:20 > 0:28:22thank you for your life in books.
0:28:22 > 0:28:27Please join me again tomorrow, same time, same place, for more stories of lives and books.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29APPLAUSE
0:28:44 > 0:28:46Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:28:46 > 0:28:49E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk