0:00:17 > 0:00:20Thank you, hello and welcome to My Life in Books,
0:00:20 > 0:00:23a chance for our guests to talk about their favourite reads
0:00:23 > 0:00:25and why they're important.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27My first guest is Pamela Stephenson.
0:00:27 > 0:00:31Psychologist, former comedienne and, of course, a dancing star.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35With Pamela is actor and comedian Alexander Armstrong,
0:00:35 > 0:00:38famous for playing posh but dim characters,
0:00:38 > 0:00:42plus he's now the host of the quiz show, Pointless.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45- Welcome to you both. - APPLAUSE
0:00:46 > 0:00:50Anne, Alexander just asked me if you're going to be rude to us.
0:00:50 > 0:00:51- No.- You're not?- No.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53Can I just explain?
0:00:53 > 0:00:55They don't pay me if I'm nasty.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59- Oh, right.- That's why. - We can provoke you to nastiness?
0:00:59 > 0:01:01Yes, but I also have to...
0:01:01 > 0:01:05I knew if you got these two on, I mean, the show wouldn't be mine.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09I just have to remind everybody... Sit quietly, please.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13This series is part of the BBC's celebration of World Book Day.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17Can we start, Alexander, with you telling us where you were brought up
0:01:17 > 0:01:19and what sort of life it was?
0:01:19 > 0:01:23I was brought up, thank you, I was brought up in Northumberland in the '70s and '80s.
0:01:23 > 0:01:29Northumberland in the 1970s and '80s was much like Northumberland, probably, in the 1870s and '80s.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32- You mean your dad wasn't in flares? - No.
0:01:32 > 0:01:35He was in stout tweeds. My father was a doctor.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38He's just retired, actually.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40My mother was a magistrate
0:01:40 > 0:01:43and we lived in the middle of nowhere, near Rothbury.
0:01:43 > 0:01:47Meanwhile, Pamela, where were you?
0:01:47 > 0:01:51I was born in New Zealand - a place called Takapuna, near Auckland.
0:01:51 > 0:01:53When I was four we moved to Australia
0:01:53 > 0:01:57so I walk a tightrope between being a New Zealander or an Australian.
0:01:57 > 0:01:59So a bookish family?
0:01:59 > 0:02:00Erm, yes.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04Because I'm terribly old, we didn't have television when I was growing up.
0:02:04 > 0:02:07We barely did, actually. LAUGHTER
0:02:07 > 0:02:13But I was very, very bookish. I spent a lot of time reading and quite solitary.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17But not surprising because your parents were academics.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20My father was a zoologist and my mother a biologist.
0:02:20 > 0:02:24They were a cancer research team and were professors at two different universities in Australia.
0:02:24 > 0:02:27You look quite twee here.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30That's a studio shot, you see?
0:02:30 > 0:02:33That's the kind of thing... My mother used to make clothes.
0:02:33 > 0:02:39I was the oldest, and two sisters, and we were all dressed in exactly the same clothes.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43At least you got them first(!) I was the youngest and I got everyone else's clothes.
0:02:43 > 0:02:45- The hand-me-downs.- All of them.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49- Yours was a religious family too. - Very religious.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54My father also was the organist and choir master of our local church.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57I had to sing in the choir and... yes.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00Your mother was, in fact, the daughter of a missionary.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04Yes. My mother was born in Fiji
0:03:04 > 0:03:08and my grandmother ran a hostel
0:03:08 > 0:03:12for young girls that she was trying to show the light to.
0:03:12 > 0:03:17My mother had a very exotic upbringing in Fiji.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20I think it was exotic - very exciting, very tropical.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24So your first book - the myths of the Greeks and Romans.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28My parents did provide me and my sisters with a wonderful library.
0:03:28 > 0:03:30All the classics.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34The Grimm's fairytales, Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan. All of those.
0:03:34 > 0:03:38One of them, and my very favourite, was the myths of the Greeks and Romans.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41My favourite story was the one about Cupid and Psyche.
0:03:41 > 0:03:46How funny that I should become a psychologist. My favourite character was Psyche.
0:03:46 > 0:03:48Remind us of the story.
0:03:48 > 0:03:54Psyche was this beautiful young woman who couldn't get a husband.
0:03:54 > 0:03:57It was very surprising. Men were frightened of her.
0:03:57 > 0:04:03Finally, erm, Cupid, the son of Venus, was passing by
0:04:03 > 0:04:06and he fell in love with her and wanted to be with her,
0:04:06 > 0:04:10but his mother, Aphrodite, refused. Absolutely no way. She's immortal.
0:04:10 > 0:04:15So he arranged a way for her to be wafted on a breeze,
0:04:15 > 0:04:19carried down into a lovely valley and ensconced in a beautiful house
0:04:19 > 0:04:21and he would visit her at night.
0:04:21 > 0:04:26In the story here, they held hands and it was all very chaste at night
0:04:26 > 0:04:28but we know what was really going on.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31Erm, and she fell in love with him
0:04:31 > 0:04:36and the rules were that she was not supposed to glance at him
0:04:36 > 0:04:39but one night she did... she disobeyed.
0:04:39 > 0:04:43She got up, she took an oil lamp and discovered who he was
0:04:43 > 0:04:49and then she had to go through a lot of trials and do a lot of tasks
0:04:49 > 0:04:53that were set to her by Aphrodite to be with him.
0:04:53 > 0:04:54What I loved about this is...
0:04:54 > 0:04:58there are very few adventurous women in literature.
0:04:58 > 0:05:02When I was growing up, the boys had all the adventures.
0:05:02 > 0:05:09Here was an example of this wonderful adventurous, brave woman, whom I admired tremendously.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12And there's a lot of psychological depth in this
0:05:12 > 0:05:14that I never understood at the time.
0:05:14 > 0:05:18The idea of delving into the unconscious is all in there
0:05:18 > 0:05:23and it would take too long to go into it but I do think there's so much in this story.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27It's an amazing tale one hardly ever hears today, but I recommend it.
0:05:27 > 0:05:32- Talking of adventure, Alexander, were you an adventurous little boy? - I was quite adventurous.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35We were living in the middle of nowhere
0:05:35 > 0:05:38so we had to make our own fun.
0:05:38 > 0:05:41I suppose I was a gopher for my older brother in many ways.
0:05:41 > 0:05:47I was surprised to learn that you, from an early age, were tremendously good at singing.
0:05:47 > 0:05:52- Yes.- You were a chorister.- I was a chorister from the age of 11.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54I've kind of been a singer all my life, actually.
0:05:54 > 0:06:00- But I can't remember seeing you on television singing.- I've never done it. I do it on the sly.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Would you like to do some now as an audition?
0:06:03 > 0:06:05Wouldn't that be excruciating?
0:06:05 > 0:06:10- How did it come about?- I went off to prep school at the age of seven.
0:06:10 > 0:06:14If you live in the middle of nowhere, your choices are quite limited
0:06:14 > 0:06:19and a brilliant headmaster's wife, Mrs Daykin,
0:06:19 > 0:06:23who oversaw the music there and it was a fabulous school.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27They had this ethos where everybody was felt they should sing
0:06:27 > 0:06:31and, no matter who you were, it was a huge honour to be in the choir.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34- You were talented because you went on...- I do go on, yes.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36..to Edinburgh to music school.
0:06:36 > 0:06:40I went on to... I went on to music school in Edinburgh,
0:06:40 > 0:06:43St Mary's Music School, and I was a chorister at St Mary's Cathedral.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46And then I was a choral scholar at Trinity, Cambridge, as well.
0:06:46 > 0:06:52At least you're a real boy because your first book is Mr Standfast by John Buchan.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56- Why this one?- This is a boy's own dream, really.
0:06:56 > 0:07:01- I think...- It proves Pamela's point. It's all male heroes.
0:07:01 > 0:07:06Exactly, although we do get Mary Lamington in this, who eventually becomes Mrs Richard Hannay.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10She appears in this, but she's slightly two-dimensional!
0:07:10 > 0:07:13- Remind us of the story.- It's part of the series of Richard Hannay stories.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17He's fighting in the trenches in the First World War
0:07:17 > 0:07:21and he's called back on very, very important, top secret spying.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24There's a very, very dangerous German spy.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27It is slightly absurd, actually.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30It's utterly absurd. Utterly absurd. But it's absolutely wonderful.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33I think the most exciting thing about this is,
0:07:33 > 0:07:37this is the first faltering steps of crime writing and thriller writing.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42Without a doubt, there would be no James Bond without Richard Hannay.
0:07:42 > 0:07:46- Have you re-read it recently? - I have. It's spectacularly dated.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50But it's arresting and it's unputdownable still.
0:07:50 > 0:07:52I mean, despite its...
0:07:52 > 0:07:56You know, it's written in an age when people say "Great Scott",
0:07:56 > 0:07:58pretty much every sentence.
0:07:58 > 0:08:03- How were you doing at school? - I was expected to do very well.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06Huge expectations, coming from such bright parents.
0:08:06 > 0:08:10My parents instilled this very, very strong work ethic.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14- By the time you were due to leave school, did you want to perform?- No.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18I think that had been taken out of me.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21I think I probably wanted to do something with English.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24English was my favourite subject so I wanted to write or...
0:08:24 > 0:08:26I wasn't really sure.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28But then I went to university
0:08:28 > 0:08:31and immediately was bored with doing an arts degree.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35Then I began to think I wanted to perform, and went to drama school.
0:08:35 > 0:08:39And then, a very courageous woman, you actually took the decision to come to Britain.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43I decided to travel and absolutely loved it.
0:08:43 > 0:08:49I did a very long trip, travelling overland through Asia and all through Europe.
0:08:49 > 0:08:55- That was your route? That old route. - It was the hippy trail.- Fantastic!
0:08:55 > 0:08:59I did it totally alone and it was just amazing.
0:08:59 > 0:09:06I was looking at satire. Everywhere I went, I became more and more excited.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09I'd done a lot of acting in Australia.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11I'd done major...
0:09:11 > 0:09:15I was at the... When the Sydney Opera House opened,
0:09:15 > 0:09:20I was playing two leading roles with the main theatre company there.
0:09:20 > 0:09:24But what happened was, I became excited about comedy and especially topical comedy.
0:09:24 > 0:09:29So by the time I got to London, I was ready for "Not The Nine O'Clock News".
0:09:29 > 0:09:32Alexander won't remember this because he was still in short trousers
0:09:32 > 0:09:36but it was a period when London was just full of Australians.
0:09:36 > 0:09:39I suppose it was.
0:09:39 > 0:09:43I do remember people just thinking I was very funny
0:09:43 > 0:09:46every time I opened my mouth.
0:09:46 > 0:09:51The next choice of book, actually, is absolutely nothing to do with show business
0:09:51 > 0:09:55and much more to do with what you came to do eventually,
0:09:55 > 0:09:58which was "The Primal Scream" by Arthur Janov.
0:09:58 > 0:10:01Tell us about the choice.
0:10:01 > 0:10:04I don't know how I found this book,
0:10:04 > 0:10:06but I found it just after it came out in 1970.
0:10:06 > 0:10:08So, I must have been about 21.
0:10:08 > 0:10:13And I picked it up and I just couldn't put it down,
0:10:13 > 0:10:15for probably about a year.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18I was absolutely entranced by it.
0:10:18 > 0:10:22It was my first introduction to psychological notions.
0:10:22 > 0:10:26My first introduction to the notion of the unconscious.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29There was a lot of misunderstanding about it at that time.
0:10:29 > 0:10:32Can you tell us the theory behind it?
0:10:32 > 0:10:38The idea is really that many people, as adults,
0:10:38 > 0:10:45are left with a wealth of traumatic, but hidden, trauma.
0:10:45 > 0:10:51And that this is fixed, helped by, catharsis
0:10:51 > 0:10:58and in Janov's case the catharsis is going to be helped by screaming.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02So, there are all these people in the '70s
0:11:02 > 0:11:05running out into the woods and screaming a lot.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08And, actually, his theory was much more complex
0:11:08 > 0:11:10and much more interesting than that.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13But that's what it was in a nutshell.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17So, I did have a few screams myself, mainly in my car.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21Alexander, your next choice of book is not at all surprising,
0:11:21 > 0:11:22the Great Gatsby.
0:11:22 > 0:11:27- A very glamorous, rich, exciting, adventure story.- Yes.
0:11:27 > 0:11:31But, at its heart, barren, of course. Very sad in the end.
0:11:31 > 0:11:34This is a great book, I read this first when I was about 14.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38- Was it at school?- Yeah. - Was it in the school library?
0:11:38 > 0:11:41I think so. I remember my sister had read it and loved it,
0:11:41 > 0:11:45and I read it, again, and what was so strange is that, I read it now,
0:11:45 > 0:11:49and I just misunderstood it, when I first read it.
0:11:49 > 0:11:52I thought Jay Gatsby was incredibly glamorous,
0:11:52 > 0:11:55and I fell for his riches, and his parties.
0:11:55 > 0:11:58I thought that he was a wonderful, wonderful being,
0:11:58 > 0:12:04I didn't know enough that, actually, behind all of the descriptions
0:12:04 > 0:12:06of Jay Gatsby's parties is this...
0:12:06 > 0:12:10- He's a mystery man, isn't he? - Well, yes, and a soulless man.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13We're lucky enough to have been to a few of those parties ourselves
0:12:13 > 0:12:17and we know, for all of their glamour, quite often they're ghastly.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20I don't mean that, if you were thinking of inviting me to a party(!)
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Glamorous parties, I love them(!)
0:12:22 > 0:12:24You know me.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26Were you acting at school or just...?
0:12:26 > 0:12:30A bit, yes. I was doing quite a lot of acting, but comedy had bitten me.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33Music remained your passport, didn't it?
0:12:33 > 0:12:35You got to Cambridge on a choral scholarship.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37Yep, yep.
0:12:37 > 0:12:39- But didn't study music? - No, I didn't, I read English.
0:12:39 > 0:12:42I think I wanted to spread my base.
0:12:42 > 0:12:45Doing my commitment as a choral scholar was pretty substantial,
0:12:45 > 0:12:48so, about 12 hours a week of singing,
0:12:48 > 0:12:50plus all the stuff you have to do on you own,
0:12:50 > 0:12:53to make sure you're not making mistakes,
0:12:53 > 0:12:56I think, represented a good enough musical education.
0:12:56 > 0:13:00I think doing English as well meant I covered a bit more breadth.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02And I didn't really want to go into music.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06You come to London and open a comedy club with some friends,
0:13:06 > 0:13:07which seems very ambitious.
0:13:07 > 0:13:11Yes. Well, I think it's the only way to get going in this business,
0:13:11 > 0:13:13is actually to get on and do it yourself.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17It was at this time that you chummed up with Ben Miller, wasn't it?
0:13:17 > 0:13:18Around about now, yep.
0:13:18 > 0:13:22Yes, we just put stuff on at this comedy club, every Saturday.
0:13:22 > 0:13:26Pamela, having come to the UK, was it easy to get work?
0:13:26 > 0:13:27Well, no, not really.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31I kept trotting into the BBC and reading for parts
0:13:31 > 0:13:36that were completely wrong for me because they were English flowers.
0:13:36 > 0:13:42But then, eventually, I met a man called John Lloyd, at a party.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46And he was desperately trying to find someone
0:13:46 > 0:13:50to be in this new comedy show that he was doing with Sean Hardie,
0:13:50 > 0:13:52for the BBC.
0:13:52 > 0:13:53Not The Nine O'Clock News.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56We've a picture of you there with the rest of the boys,
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Griff Rhys Jones, Rowan Atkinson, Mel Smith.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04- Was it an exciting time?- It was, because the show was a huge hit.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Not immediately, worked terribly hard on it,
0:14:07 > 0:14:10playing all sorts of characters.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12I didn't just want to be "The Crumpet".
0:14:12 > 0:14:15You sang. I remember you singing on this.
0:14:15 > 0:14:21Yes, I did a lot of singing and all sorts of parodies.
0:14:21 > 0:14:24It was the most exciting show, sorry, I just can't contain it.
0:14:24 > 0:14:28- It was a time when music and comedy...- Wasn't it a wonderful show?
0:14:28 > 0:14:30..were just so brilliant.
0:14:30 > 0:14:34Comedy, we have had hits since then, but nothing like it since then.
0:14:34 > 0:14:37- Well, thank you.- And that's where you met Billy, wasn't it?
0:14:37 > 0:14:40That's where I met Billy, they were making such a fuss
0:14:40 > 0:14:43about this Scottish comedian they wanted to have on the show.
0:14:43 > 0:14:46I kept saying, "Well, we don't have guests on the show,
0:14:46 > 0:14:48"why are we bothering about this?"
0:14:48 > 0:14:51Then, finally, they dragged me along to meet him
0:14:51 > 0:14:54and I thought he was a complete animal.
0:14:54 > 0:14:58- Why?- He was just this shaggy thing.
0:14:58 > 0:15:02I didn't understand a word he said.
0:15:02 > 0:15:07We went to lunch and he ate fish with his bare hands.
0:15:07 > 0:15:11And, I thought, "Yum".
0:15:11 > 0:15:14Yummy-yummy or Yum?
0:15:14 > 0:15:17No, I just thought he was desperately attractive.
0:15:17 > 0:15:20The choice of your next book is very much down to him, isn't it?
0:15:20 > 0:15:23Because, it's unusual for a girl to choose this.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25It's Carry On, Jeeves by PG Wodehouse.
0:15:25 > 0:15:31When we first got together we used to read these stories,
0:15:31 > 0:15:35the Wodehouse stories, to each other and we used to scream,
0:15:35 > 0:15:40now, you might read this and it might be a lot more familiar.
0:15:40 > 0:15:44- It would sound like him, actually, wouldn't it?- You think?
0:15:44 > 0:15:47For Billy and I it was so culturally different.
0:15:47 > 0:15:52Just the language was so, so, silly.
0:15:52 > 0:15:57Phrases like "Dear old Bicky, though a stout fellow,
0:15:57 > 0:16:02"and absolutely unrivalled as an imitator of bull-terriers and cats,
0:16:02 > 0:16:06"was in many ways one of the most pronounced fatheads..."
0:16:06 > 0:16:09If you were just saying the word "fathead",
0:16:09 > 0:16:12Billy and I would be gone for about five minutes.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15It's just such a funny word, fathead!
0:16:15 > 0:16:19"..that ever pulled on a suit of gents' underwear."
0:16:19 > 0:16:22- "A suit of gents' underwear"! - Alien to both of you, wasn't it?
0:16:22 > 0:16:23It was just so alien.
0:16:23 > 0:16:26Then there'd be all of these wonderful characters.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30I love the female characters in it, because the female characters were
0:16:30 > 0:16:33these big self-determined, strong, bullies.
0:16:33 > 0:16:40And they would just making his life miserable. I just found it so funny.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44Alexander, how did you move from comedy in Notting Hill,
0:16:44 > 0:16:49at the Comedy Club you'd developed, on to television?
0:16:49 > 0:16:53Awkwardly, by going to the Edinburgh Festival.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55That's what you do. You just keep...
0:16:55 > 0:16:59I thank God for the people, they lie of course, these comedy producers
0:16:59 > 0:17:01who come up and say, "I think you'd be great,
0:17:01 > 0:17:03"yes, I'd like to consider you for something."
0:17:03 > 0:17:06They never mean it, but thank God for them
0:17:06 > 0:17:09because, actually, they keep you going, you keep thinking
0:17:09 > 0:17:13and eventually somebody does actually come up and give you something.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16You were different from other comedians
0:17:16 > 0:17:18in that you weren't working class.
0:17:18 > 0:17:19At the time.
0:17:19 > 0:17:25We were doing sketches. Stand-up was all the rage.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28We've a wonderful clip here, that is more recent,
0:17:28 > 0:17:32but it very much identifies the sort of comedy that you and Ben do.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35Here, have you heard about Chalky and all this?
0:17:35 > 0:17:38He's actually a spy for, like, that lot we're fighting,
0:17:38 > 0:17:40the Germans, or whatever.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42No way? Chalky, a spy? You mean, Chalky?
0:17:42 > 0:17:44- Yeah, man, Chalky. - Chalky Von Schmidt, a spy?
0:17:44 > 0:17:46LAUGHTER
0:17:46 > 0:17:50I swear down, he's been giving Germans, like, spoilers about the war and this.
0:17:50 > 0:17:53Oh, my days, that is so two-faced.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55Apparently he was caught nicking stuff
0:17:55 > 0:17:59from the group captain's briefcase and sending it to his nan in Berlin.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01APPLAUSE
0:18:01 > 0:18:03- That's very John Buchan, isn't it?- It is.
0:18:03 > 0:18:06Well, there's quite a strong John Buchan theme
0:18:06 > 0:18:08that runs through all our stuff.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Bringing you on to your next book which is quite recent,
0:18:11 > 0:18:13published in 1996.
0:18:13 > 0:18:17The Debt To Pleasure, by John Lanchester.
0:18:17 > 0:18:18His first novel,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21which gave him the Whitbread Prize.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24Yes, best first novel, I think, and deservedly.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26It's a brilliant, brilliant book.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28If anyone hasn't come across this,
0:18:28 > 0:18:31this, I can say with my hand on my heart,
0:18:31 > 0:18:33is the funniest book I've ever read.
0:18:33 > 0:18:35Well, that's quite a recommendation.
0:18:35 > 0:18:40Seriously, I think it is dense with comedy. It's written...
0:18:40 > 0:18:41Is it a boy's book?
0:18:41 > 0:18:44No, I don't think it is, although the narrator is a boy.
0:18:44 > 0:18:46Tell us about it.
0:18:46 > 0:18:50He is called Tarquin, I don't know how you pronounce it,
0:18:50 > 0:18:55It's Winot, maybe it's deliberately ambiguous, I don't know,
0:18:55 > 0:18:59but Tarquin Winot, who's this grotesque invention.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02He ostensibly sets out to write a cookery book.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05A series of recipes, none of which I have tried,
0:19:05 > 0:19:08but all sounding entirely plausible.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11He is, John Lanchester, a restaurant critic for the Guardian.
0:19:11 > 0:19:15- He does know.- He clearly knows. He knows his food.
0:19:15 > 0:19:20Brillat-Savarin gets a lot of acknowledgement throughout.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24It's a journey, it's a recipe book and an unfolding story.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27In the folds of this recipe book
0:19:27 > 0:19:31drop out some just wonderful nuggets of comedy.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35- Read us a small extract. - I've got a little extract here.
0:19:35 > 0:19:42There's a simmering enmity between him and his brother, Bartholomew,
0:19:42 > 0:19:44I won't give too much away.
0:19:44 > 0:19:48But you can always tell he is trying to edge his brother out.
0:19:48 > 0:19:51"'You said once that peaches remind you of your brother,'
0:19:51 > 0:19:54"my biographer remarked to me a while ago.
0:19:54 > 0:19:56"I pretended not to be able to remember.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58"The truth is that the furry fruit does indeed remind me
0:19:58 > 0:20:01"of my sibling, thanks to an unfortunate event
0:20:01 > 0:20:03"that occurred when we were both small.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05"A near-fatal case of poisoning which resulted when I,
0:20:05 > 0:20:08"in an early stab at culinary experimentation, prepared a jam
0:20:08 > 0:20:11"made out of peaches but also peach stones.
0:20:11 > 0:20:13"The latter containing, it turns out, cyanogen,
0:20:13 > 0:20:15"a stable compound that,
0:20:15 > 0:20:18"when broken down through contact with certain enzymes,
0:20:18 > 0:20:21"(or when pounded up using a pestle and mortar)..."
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Which he's clearly done...
0:20:24 > 0:20:27"..produces that celebrated toxin, cyanide."
0:20:27 > 0:20:29LAUGHTER
0:20:29 > 0:20:31- It gives us a hint.- Yeah.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33It's lovely, it's just brilliant.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36Pamela, you moved to LA at the beginning of the '90s.
0:20:36 > 0:20:41Billy was asked to do a long-running television show,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44and you have to sign a contract forever, so we all moved.
0:20:44 > 0:20:48I had three children and two stepchildren at that point,
0:20:48 > 0:20:51So, we all went there, and I got the kids into school,
0:20:51 > 0:20:54then I decided I was a bit bored with show business.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56Actually, I was very bored with show business.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58I wanted to do something different,
0:20:58 > 0:21:01something that meant I didn't have to travel.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04I wanted to be stable with the family, so I went back to university
0:21:04 > 0:21:08and got a PhD in psychology.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11For the next decade, then,
0:21:11 > 0:21:14- you opened your own practice, didn't you?- Yes.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17You specialised in human sexuality.
0:21:17 > 0:21:22Yes, I'm an overall psychologist, but that's a specialty subject,
0:21:22 > 0:21:27along with hypnosis and treating trauma and mood disorders and so on.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30So, I had a practice in Beverly Hills for 15 years.
0:21:30 > 0:21:34I was an adjunct professor at California Graduate Institute.
0:21:34 > 0:21:39My life was totally about psychology.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41Does it continue to be?
0:21:41 > 0:21:43Well, very much so.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46But, I don't have a practice at the moment.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49I got to the point where I felt I needed to have a break,
0:21:49 > 0:21:52and I think that's a healthy thing for psychologists.
0:21:52 > 0:21:57I got in a sail boat and sailed round the world.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59- How long did that take?- Two years.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01You are the modern Odysseus.
0:22:01 > 0:22:05Which brings us to your 4th book. The Odyssey, by Homer.
0:22:05 > 0:22:08If you said, "What is your all-time favourite book?"
0:22:08 > 0:22:10I'd say it's this.
0:22:10 > 0:22:12It's Homer's Odyssey.
0:22:12 > 0:22:16Not only is it the adventure, the struggles,
0:22:16 > 0:22:21all the trials that Odysseus was put through with his men...
0:22:21 > 0:22:26I suppose, in parts of my life I have been Penelope,
0:22:26 > 0:22:30weaving my tapestry at home while Billy has been striding out
0:22:30 > 0:22:36doing his concerts and so on, but I much prefer the role of Odysseus.
0:22:36 > 0:22:39Are you going to read us an extract?
0:22:39 > 0:22:43See, I love the sea, I feel such an affinity with it,
0:22:43 > 0:22:47I discovered a while ago that my great0great grandfather
0:22:47 > 0:22:51was a sea captain during that wonderful spice trade period.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55He actually got pirated, and died out in Indonesia.
0:22:55 > 0:23:00I just feel so excited to think I have that ancestry
0:23:00 > 0:23:02and it's inspired me.
0:23:02 > 0:23:06"A tremendous wave swept him forward to the rugged shore
0:23:06 > 0:23:10"where his skin would have been torn off him and all of his bones broken,
0:23:10 > 0:23:14"had not they bright-eyed goddess, Athena, put it into his head
0:23:14 > 0:23:17"to grab hold of a rock with both hands."
0:23:17 > 0:23:19See, the woman at always saves him!
0:23:19 > 0:23:22"As he was swept in, he clung there, groaning,
0:23:22 > 0:23:24"while the great wave swept by.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26"But no sooner had he escaped its fury
0:23:26 > 0:23:29"than its backwards rush caught him with full force
0:23:29 > 0:23:31"and flung him far out to sea.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35"Pieces of skin, stripped from his sturdy hands, were left sticking
0:23:35 > 0:23:38"to the crag like the pebbles that stick to be suckers of a squid
0:23:38 > 0:23:41"when it's torn from its lair."
0:23:41 > 0:23:46It just goes on and on like that, I won't read any more of it,
0:23:46 > 0:23:49but I have caught in the sea a number of times,
0:23:49 > 0:23:53and I've felt, I mean, I've been at sea and we've had a fire on board,
0:23:53 > 0:23:58and I have faced the kind of things that the sea can bring,
0:23:58 > 0:24:02and I have come to the conclusion that it's just life-affirming.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06It's thrilling to pitch yourself against the elements,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09and to actually survive.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12I'm not just an adrenaline junkie, honest!
0:24:12 > 0:24:17I just actually think that this is sort of important.
0:24:17 > 0:24:22It does make you feel truly human and truly capable.
0:24:22 > 0:24:24I just want to do it again, in a heartbeat.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26Have you been travelling?
0:24:26 > 0:24:31I have. I've sailed. I've done offshore sailing, but only once.
0:24:31 > 0:24:36- Terrifying, but brilliant. - You are never off television now.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38I know, I'm sorry!
0:24:38 > 0:24:40Don't apologise.
0:24:40 > 0:24:44- And this as well now!- Yes, this. - Oh, Lord.- And commercials.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47- And now you're a quiz show host. - Now I'm a quiz show host, yes.
0:24:47 > 0:24:52- You're well into the run of it, now. - I think so.- Got the hang of it?
0:24:52 > 0:24:55Let's have a look.
0:24:55 > 0:25:00Anything else you've learned from your appearance on Cou... Countdown?!
0:25:00 > 0:25:07LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:25:09 > 0:25:12It's going very well, isn't it(?) I think it is(!)
0:25:12 > 0:25:15LAUGHTER
0:25:15 > 0:25:20- Anything else you've learned from your appearance?- A lot.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23APPLAUSE
0:25:23 > 0:25:27My brain just turns to cheese at times.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30Because you've so many facts and things,
0:25:30 > 0:25:33that doesn't surprise me at all.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36Has your general knowledge increased?
0:25:36 > 0:25:37You'd hope, but I don't know if it has.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41Your final choice is The Complete Works of William Shakespeare,
0:25:41 > 0:25:45a particular edition edited by Peter Alexander.
0:25:45 > 0:25:49It is. I mean, that's the one I have.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53It's very Desert Island Discs to have this as my final...
0:25:53 > 0:25:57..in fact, we've both gone for quite light tomes for our final choices.
0:25:57 > 0:25:58That's almost cheating.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01It is, almost. I mean, you've got it all there.
0:26:01 > 0:26:05The reason why I've said this is that I was of that generation,
0:26:05 > 0:26:08I think the first generation to come through school,
0:26:08 > 0:26:13educated in the '80s, where learning anything just didn't happen.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15Children weren't made to learn stuff.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19Parrot fashion was vastly discredited.
0:26:19 > 0:26:23It was a byword for terrible previous ills, when, in fact,
0:26:23 > 0:26:27parrot fashion is how we learn to speak.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29There's nothing wrong with parrot fashion.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32It is how we learn pretty much everything, actually.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34My mother, when I did O-levels,
0:26:34 > 0:26:37Mum found brilliant old RSC recordings in the library
0:26:37 > 0:26:40that you can get out and we listened to them the whole time.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43Much though I complained, a bit like with modern jazz,
0:26:43 > 0:26:46once you've got to know it, you like it.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48I often make that mistake on the radio.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51You hear a song and think, "Oh, I like this."
0:26:51 > 0:26:53Then you think, "Oh, no, it's Phil Collins."
0:26:53 > 0:26:56What I meant was, "I know it and I recognise it."
0:26:56 > 0:26:58But it stimulates a similar thing.
0:26:58 > 0:27:01Getting to know this, by listening to it, or, in my case, singing it,
0:27:01 > 0:27:04I've sung a lot of Shakespeare settings,
0:27:04 > 0:27:05means it's drummed in there.
0:27:05 > 0:27:06Now, in my forties,
0:27:06 > 0:27:13I have got to a age where little snatches of phrases and lines
0:27:13 > 0:27:15suddenly haunt me.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17I think, "Oh, I must go and look that up.
0:27:17 > 0:27:19"'The cloud-capp'd towers...'"
0:27:19 > 0:27:20What came after that?
0:27:20 > 0:27:22I'll go and look it up.
0:27:22 > 0:27:23So, this is why I love this.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27I don't sit down and read solidly through plays, but I refer to it.
0:27:27 > 0:27:31- Is it on your bedside?- It is.- I love it.- Who do you identify with most?
0:27:31 > 0:27:33- Which character?- Which character?
0:27:33 > 0:27:37OK. I haven't prepared this one.
0:27:37 > 0:27:42- Think quickly.- Well, who do I particularly in, er...
0:27:44 > 0:27:48- Right, well you've come up with that fast.- Well, who on earth?
0:27:48 > 0:27:51- I just stopped the whole thing, dead.- He's a quick thinker(!)
0:27:51 > 0:27:54Our time is up. Thank you both, very much indeed.
0:27:54 > 0:27:58Alexander Armstrong and Pamela Stephenson.
0:27:58 > 0:28:03APPLAUSE
0:28:03 > 0:28:05Wonderful. And just to remind you,
0:28:05 > 0:28:09details from this series are, of course, on the BBC website.
0:28:12 > 0:28:14You can also hear our guests read a passage
0:28:14 > 0:28:16from their favourite children's book.
0:28:16 > 0:28:21Please, join me again tomorrow same time, same place.
0:28:21 > 0:28:22Goodnight.
0:28:43 > 0:28:46Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd