0:00:14 > 0:00:17APPLAUSE
0:00:19 > 0:00:22Hello and welcome to My Life In Books, a chance for our guests
0:00:22 > 0:00:26to talk about their favourite reads, and why they're important.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29With me tonight, Don Warrington, famously Leonard Rossiter's
0:00:29 > 0:00:32posh sparring partner in Rising Damp.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35He's been working non-stop ever since.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39Alongside him, Pam Ayres, who writes poetry about real life,
0:00:39 > 0:00:41and it rhymes and it's funny.
0:00:41 > 0:00:44She found fame on TV's original talent show,
0:00:44 > 0:00:48Opportunity Knocks, when Simon Cowell was still in short trousers.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51- Thank you both for being here. - It's a pleasure.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54APPLAUSE
0:00:55 > 0:01:01Don, it's quite surprising to learn that your background and early years
0:01:01 > 0:01:05are very different from that voice that has become so familiar to us.
0:01:05 > 0:01:09Yes, well, I was born in Trinidad in the West Indies
0:01:09 > 0:01:13and I came to England, I think, when I was about eight.
0:01:13 > 0:01:18So, I went from being West Indian, Trinidadian,
0:01:18 > 0:01:21to being Geordie to being this.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24- What did your dad do? - My dad was a politician.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28I didn't know him well because he died when I was quite young,
0:01:28 > 0:01:30but that's what he did.
0:01:30 > 0:01:33And that prompted you coming to England?
0:01:33 > 0:01:36Well, I suppose it was something to do with the move.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39I think that my mother felt she needed a change,
0:01:39 > 0:01:44and at the time, because of the Windrush and things like that,
0:01:44 > 0:01:48- England seemed to be the place to come to.- The promised land.
0:01:48 > 0:01:54Yes, indeed. At school, it was all about this glorious...our country.
0:01:54 > 0:01:57Meanwhile, Pam, you were growing up whereabouts?
0:01:57 > 0:02:01I grew up in Stanford in the Vale, which used to be in Berkshire,
0:02:01 > 0:02:04but then much to our indignation they changed the boundaries
0:02:04 > 0:02:08and we found ourselves in Oxfordshire, which we did not like.
0:02:08 > 0:02:12- Why didn't you like it? - Because I'm one of six children,
0:02:12 > 0:02:15and my four brothers used to play football for the local team,
0:02:15 > 0:02:18and we were Berkshire. Then they changed the boundaries,
0:02:18 > 0:02:19and we were Oxfordshire,
0:02:19 > 0:02:23we were the people who'd always been the enemy, so we didn't like it.
0:02:23 > 0:02:25And I think a lot of people felt that.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28You know, you build up a loyalty to your own county.
0:02:28 > 0:02:32We did not wish to be separated from it but we didn't have any choice.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37- So, rural surroundings.- Yes. It was a very insular village, really.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42Now it tends to be a lot of people who work in Oxford and Swindon live there.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45But then, it was very self-contained, it had lots of farms,
0:02:45 > 0:02:49it had two builders' yards, lots of shops.
0:02:49 > 0:02:51You know, you didn't go anywhere else very much.
0:02:51 > 0:02:55So the accent, which everybody talks to me about,
0:02:55 > 0:02:58is very common there, cos nobody came or went very much,
0:02:58 > 0:03:01and I lived there until I was 18.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03And I loved it, I still do.
0:03:03 > 0:03:07Your first choice of book, Just William by Richmal Crompton...
0:03:07 > 0:03:09- Yeah.- Why this book?
0:03:09 > 0:03:12Well, because one day at Stanford in the Vale village school,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16the headmistress announced that we had a school library,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18and everybody should go and investigate it.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21And so, I went along at lunchtime,
0:03:21 > 0:03:25and the library was about three feet of books on a shelf, and that was it.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28The teacher was very nice. She said, "What do you like, Pamela?
0:03:28 > 0:03:30"What do you feel interested in?"
0:03:30 > 0:03:33I said, "Well, I like horses, and things that are funny,"
0:03:33 > 0:03:35and she gave me Just William.
0:03:35 > 0:03:40And I took it home, and I was convulsed with laughter.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42Can you read us a small extract?
0:03:42 > 0:03:43Yeah, certainly.
0:03:43 > 0:03:48An auntie gives William sixpence and he goes to the pictures,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51and this is one of the films that he saw.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53And I've chosen it because of the language,
0:03:53 > 0:03:57how sort of un-childish it is.
0:03:57 > 0:04:02"Lastly, came the pathetic story of a drunkard's downward path.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05"He began as a wild young man in evening clothes,
0:04:05 > 0:04:09"drinking intoxicants and playing cards,
0:04:09 > 0:04:13"and he ended up as a wild old man in rags,
0:04:13 > 0:04:17"still drinking intoxicants and playing cards.
0:04:17 > 0:04:21"He had a small child with a pious and superior expression,
0:04:21 > 0:04:24"who had spent her time weeping over him
0:04:24 > 0:04:27"and exhorting him to a better life,
0:04:27 > 0:04:30"till in a moment of justifiable exasperation,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33"he threw a beer bottle at her head."
0:04:34 > 0:04:38That's why I love it, the language was very advanced,
0:04:38 > 0:04:42but the situations were all recognisable, and they don't date.
0:04:42 > 0:04:47Did you find William to be living the same life as you were living?
0:04:47 > 0:04:48He was quite posh, wasn't he?
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Yes, and his poshness grated on me.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55I loved William and all the scrapes he got into, but every now and then
0:04:55 > 0:05:00a very discordant note would sound when he talked about "one's cook"
0:05:00 > 0:05:03or "one's gardener," and I didn't like that,
0:05:03 > 0:05:05cos that made him different from me.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08I wanted him to be ordinary like me.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11But wasn't your village, wasn't that the distinction?
0:05:11 > 0:05:12Well, exactly.
0:05:12 > 0:05:19Our village was very much what my dad used to call "the nobs and us."
0:05:19 > 0:05:21"Nobs" short for the nobility.
0:05:21 > 0:05:25My head teacher, when I interviewed her years afterwards,
0:05:25 > 0:05:27she said it was such a feudal village,
0:05:27 > 0:05:30and there was this great divide between the landed gentry
0:05:30 > 0:05:33and the people who went to church on a Sunday morning
0:05:33 > 0:05:36and the people who swanned round in cars,
0:05:36 > 0:05:38and us, you know, from the council houses,
0:05:38 > 0:05:43and they were not affectionately regarded, I have to say.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46Meanwhile, Don, you'd moved from Trinidad to Newcastle.
0:05:46 > 0:05:50- Were you one of the nobs in Newcastle?- No. No, no.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53I mean, a different climate, a different culture.
0:05:53 > 0:06:00How unusual, that era, was it to be a small black boy in Newcastle?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Well, it was very unusual. It was very unusual indeed.
0:06:03 > 0:06:09But I think the thing about being a child at that age
0:06:09 > 0:06:12was that one had enormous adaptability.
0:06:12 > 0:06:17Very quickly, one could become a part of the community.
0:06:17 > 0:06:24It was alien to me to be surrounded by all these white people,
0:06:24 > 0:06:28basically, because where I'd come from, there were very few.
0:06:28 > 0:06:32There were more of me than there were of them, so things had changed.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37So I decided, "Well, I'll become like them as quickly as I can."
0:06:37 > 0:06:42And how did you get round learning to speak the same as everybody else?
0:06:42 > 0:06:48Well, I simply heard the way they spoke and I spoke like them.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51I've always, I think, had the ability to pick up,
0:06:51 > 0:06:54you know...so people would say things like,
0:06:54 > 0:07:00"Hello, Don. How are ya?" And I'd go, "I'm fine, man." So, you know...
0:07:00 > 0:07:01That's wonderful.
0:07:01 > 0:07:06Your first choice of book is Day Of The Triffids by John Wyndham.
0:07:06 > 0:07:10- Why this one?- I think coming from Trinidad to England
0:07:10 > 0:07:14meant one had to make huge adjustments.
0:07:14 > 0:07:17Therefore, I was looking for things, subconsciously,
0:07:17 > 0:07:21but looking for things that would help me to make that adjustment.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23At school, there were a list of books,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26and I stumbled upon The Day Of The Triffids,
0:07:26 > 0:07:32and I read it, and it had echoes for me because it was about
0:07:32 > 0:07:37the world being suddenly made very different.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42That was what my world was. It was suddenly very different indeed,
0:07:42 > 0:07:45and I needed something that echoed with me, that said,
0:07:45 > 0:07:50"Ah. Other things happen. Other people have had this experience."
0:07:50 > 0:07:56And in a way, I found a sort of comfort in reading this book,
0:07:56 > 0:07:58which is a rather dark book, actually.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00It's a sci-fi book, isn't it?
0:08:00 > 0:08:06It's a book about... It's also a book about the time, actually.
0:08:06 > 0:08:11It's a book about paranoia, because at that time the world was in danger
0:08:11 > 0:08:14from the Russians and all the rest of it...
0:08:14 > 0:08:18- Yeah, it's a '50s book.- Yeah, and that's what he's reflecting.
0:08:18 > 0:08:22And there was also in it, I suppose, when I look back on it now,
0:08:22 > 0:08:27a warning about how we should live, and that we should actually
0:08:27 > 0:08:30look after the land, which I didn't know at the time, but you know...
0:08:30 > 0:08:35Pam, did you have anyone in the village that encouraged you...?
0:08:35 > 0:08:36Well, yes.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40The vicar, the Reverend Selwyn Fry was a very nice man,
0:08:40 > 0:08:43and people used to go to him for advice
0:08:43 > 0:08:45if they were perplexed by things.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49And I was so frustrated in the village when I was 17 or 18,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52and I was desperate to get out,
0:08:52 > 0:08:55and I could see that some girls became air stewardesses.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57They became very glamorous air stewardesses
0:08:57 > 0:08:59and they jetted off round the world.
0:08:59 > 0:09:03And so, I went to consult the Reverend Selwyn Fry
0:09:03 > 0:09:08and I didn't know that if I stood up with the accent I've got and said,
0:09:08 > 0:09:11"Ladies and gentlemen, fa-asten your seatbelt..."
0:09:11 > 0:09:14You know, everybody would fall about laughing
0:09:14 > 0:09:16and nobody would do what they're supposed to do.
0:09:16 > 0:09:19So I went to see the Reverend Selwyn Fry and he said,
0:09:19 > 0:09:23"What you must do, my dear, is to buy yourself a tape recorder
0:09:23 > 0:09:26"and listen to Radio Four, and emulate what you hear
0:09:26 > 0:09:28"and then keep playing it back to the tape recorder."
0:09:28 > 0:09:31But the idea of doing that was excruciating,
0:09:31 > 0:09:34because that would have meant that I spoke differently
0:09:34 > 0:09:36from my mum and dad, my granny and grampy,
0:09:36 > 0:09:38all the people I loved.
0:09:38 > 0:09:39I would have sounded a fraud.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42It's how you two differ, isn't it?
0:09:42 > 0:09:46Because you decided very ruthlessly that...?
0:09:46 > 0:09:48Well, it was naivety, really,
0:09:48 > 0:09:51because when I came into contact with actors,
0:09:51 > 0:09:54they all talked differently to me.
0:09:54 > 0:09:58And I thought, "To be like them, I'd better learn to talk like them."
0:09:58 > 0:10:03So, I simply listened and adopted their accents,
0:10:03 > 0:10:05cos I thought that's what actors did.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08So, what was the alternative to...?
0:10:08 > 0:10:10Oh, well, what I did in the end,
0:10:10 > 0:10:14I joined the Womens' Royal Air Force when I was 18, and I could see
0:10:14 > 0:10:17that it took you off to foreign climes at no cost to yourself.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20- And in a very smart uniform. - Absolutely.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23There I am with my posh hat on.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25And it was actually leaving the RAF,
0:10:25 > 0:10:28they gave you an opportunity to re-train at something.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31You were offered various re-settlement courses,
0:10:31 > 0:10:33where you could go and train for the next thing.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36I went on this creative writing course.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39At the end, this is going to sound terribly arrogant,
0:10:39 > 0:10:42but it was very thrilling for me because the man who was tutoring it
0:10:42 > 0:10:45asked to see me and he said, "You are a writer,"
0:10:45 > 0:10:50and he said, "You've got a style all your own," and I was only 22.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53And he said, "You go away and read and read,
0:10:53 > 0:10:56"and one day you'll be a somebody."
0:10:56 > 0:10:59Your second choice of book is wonderful.
0:11:04 > 0:11:05It rings so true.
0:11:05 > 0:11:10It says that we drown ourselves in clutter for stupid, fatuous reasons.
0:11:10 > 0:11:12You know, "I'm going to mend it."
0:11:12 > 0:11:15"I've kept this hammer with the wobbly head
0:11:15 > 0:11:17"because I'm going to mend it."
0:11:17 > 0:11:21Or, "I've kept this card with a daffodil on the front,
0:11:21 > 0:11:24"this Easter card that my son made for me when he was three.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27"He's now 58 and a chartered accountant,
0:11:27 > 0:11:29"but I'm going to keep it."
0:11:29 > 0:11:33And as I read that book about clutter, it rang so true.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35It's funny and it's very true.
0:11:35 > 0:11:40Meanwhile, your T-shirts are all ironed and nice, are they?
0:11:40 > 0:11:47Not quite, but I just like to be able to see above the horizon...
0:11:47 > 0:11:52I feel that if there's too much, I'm enclosed and...
0:11:52 > 0:11:55I like to see what I've got.
0:11:55 > 0:11:59Your next choice of book is The Fire Next Time by James Baldwin.
0:11:59 > 0:12:03- Yeah.- In your teens, when you were reading this?- In my teens, about 14.
0:12:03 > 0:12:05Tell us about the book?
0:12:05 > 0:12:09The book is basically about a boy
0:12:09 > 0:12:14coming to terms with growing into a man.
0:12:14 > 0:12:15He sees that the weight of life
0:12:15 > 0:12:17destroys people,
0:12:17 > 0:12:19and so he's busy trying to find
0:12:19 > 0:12:21an identity for himself,
0:12:21 > 0:12:25and that identity involves looking at who he is.
0:12:25 > 0:12:30Part of that, certainly at that age, is to do with one's sexuality.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33He wrestles with the problem of his sexuality, doesn't he?
0:12:33 > 0:12:36Yes, he does. In my case,
0:12:36 > 0:12:41I translated that to wrestle with a question of identity, who was I?
0:12:41 > 0:12:45And that's what drew me to James Baldwin.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48Although I lived in Newcastle, he lived in Harlem,
0:12:48 > 0:12:53there was that essential isolation that I felt, really,
0:12:53 > 0:12:57and I could find comfort in his struggle
0:12:57 > 0:13:01to find a place of belonging.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Was it difficult to achieve a dream of being an actor?
0:13:05 > 0:13:12You were a teenager, black, in Newcastle. What were your chances?
0:13:12 > 0:13:18Who knows? One didn't think about chances. It was simply an ambition.
0:13:18 > 0:13:20So, how did you go about it?
0:13:20 > 0:13:24I went down to the local theatre and I asked them for a job.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27And they looked at me and smiled, kindly, and thought,
0:13:27 > 0:13:30"What a strange little boy this is."
0:13:30 > 0:13:32And they said, "OK, we'll give you a job,"
0:13:32 > 0:13:35and they gave me a job as a student ASM, which meant
0:13:35 > 0:13:40that you did everything people told you to do and so I did.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43But basically, I got into the building
0:13:43 > 0:13:48so I could be near to people who were doing the thing I wanted to do.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50- And you got to drama school as a result.- Yeah.
0:13:50 > 0:13:55Later on, I auditioned for what turns out to be
0:13:55 > 0:14:02a very radical drama school called the Drama Centre, where they...
0:14:02 > 0:14:06their philosophy at the time was, "We will take you into this school.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11"We will destroy your personality and remake you as an actor."
0:14:11 > 0:14:14It was a belief system they had.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16It's very complicated,
0:14:16 > 0:14:21but they believed that personality was the thing that inhibited actors
0:14:21 > 0:14:24from being able to create other people.
0:14:24 > 0:14:26So, whose personality have you got?
0:14:26 > 0:14:29- Well, now, I can be... Who would you like me to be?- I don't know.
0:14:29 > 0:14:33Well, this is me. This is me. This is me, as far as I can tell.
0:14:33 > 0:14:38Pam, you were taking a different route to fame, weren't you?
0:14:38 > 0:14:43You were encouraged, weren't you, to try Opportunity Knocks?
0:14:43 > 0:14:46I did want to go on Opportunity Knocks, yes, I did.
0:14:46 > 0:14:50I was working round the folk clubs, and I had written lots of poems.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52Well, I'd written about 12 poems, I suppose,
0:14:52 > 0:14:54and people kept asking for copies.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57So I had a little pamphlet produced,
0:14:57 > 0:15:00and at the end of the performance I used to say,
0:15:00 > 0:15:02"If you like me poems and you want to read some more,
0:15:02 > 0:15:05"I've got a book for 40 pence, buy it at the door."
0:15:05 > 0:15:09And then I shot down off the stage
0:15:09 > 0:15:13and sat at my little shop and sold these pamphlets of poems.
0:15:13 > 0:15:18And I sold 7,000, which astonished me.
0:15:18 > 0:15:22Then I was working as a secretary, which I didn't like,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25and I was working in the evening as some sort of entertainer,
0:15:25 > 0:15:30which I loved. I thought that the talent shows were a way to go,
0:15:30 > 0:15:35and I went on Opportunity Knocks in 1975, which I won.
0:15:35 > 0:15:39This is you a year after Opportunity Knocks,
0:15:39 > 0:15:43- performing on the Parky show. - Oh, right.
0:15:43 > 0:15:44Oh.
0:15:44 > 0:15:49I am a bunny rabbit, sitting in me hutch.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53I like to sit up this end,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56I don't care for that end, much.
0:15:57 > 0:16:03I'm glad tomorrow's Sunday, cos with a bit of luck,
0:16:03 > 0:16:08As far as I remember, that's the day they pass the buck.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11APPLAUSE
0:16:11 > 0:16:14Your timing is what...? Isn't her timing great?
0:16:14 > 0:16:18- It's very, very good.- But it's so slow. It seems so slow to me now.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22I want to say, "Get on with it! For God's sake!"
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Your next choice of book...
0:16:27 > 0:16:29Tell us about this.
0:16:29 > 0:16:34Well, I just happened to pick it up one day. I liked the cover. And I...
0:16:34 > 0:16:36That's why you're so refreshing.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40Thanks. This is the cover. This is the one I saw.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43You've got a sort of lesser version, but this is the one
0:16:43 > 0:16:49that I fell in love with, and it's a story of a deaf boy and his dog.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52It's a very charming book on that level.
0:16:52 > 0:16:59It's also a very creepy ghost story. It's got very eerie elements to it.
0:16:59 > 0:17:03It's a murder story. There's a hateful uncle that you detest,
0:17:03 > 0:17:06and the language is exquisite.
0:17:06 > 0:17:09It's the most spellbindingly written book.
0:17:09 > 0:17:10It took him ten years to write.
0:17:10 > 0:17:15- Well, I think you've sold that very well.- Have I?- Very well indeed.
0:17:15 > 0:17:18- You going to read us an extract? - I'll read you a little piece, yes.
0:17:18 > 0:17:23This is where, there's a lady in the book called Ida Payne,
0:17:23 > 0:17:26and she has premonitions and she's a really creepy lady.
0:17:26 > 0:17:28And Edgar, the boy in the book,
0:17:28 > 0:17:31he's threatened by a man with poison.
0:17:31 > 0:17:33The man with poison is in the background.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37Ida can see this, and the little boy can't.
0:17:37 > 0:17:41"Images he didn't understand occupied his mind's eye.
0:17:41 > 0:17:46"A dark, cobbled alleyway, a dog limping through the rain,
0:17:46 > 0:17:50"an elderly Oriental man holding a slender length of cane
0:17:50 > 0:17:51"with great delicacy."
0:17:51 > 0:17:53That's the poison.
0:17:53 > 0:17:58"And Edgar looked at the Coke bottle in his rigor-locked hand.
0:17:58 > 0:18:02"And then he saw that the bottle had changed.
0:18:02 > 0:18:06"It had taken the shape of an antique cruet or inkwell,
0:18:06 > 0:18:09"and maybe a prescription bottle from olden days.
0:18:09 > 0:18:16"Some oily liquid glazed the inside. Prismatic, clear, viscous.
0:18:16 > 0:18:18"The thing was banded with a ribbon,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21"and the ribbon was covered with markings in some foreign alphabet.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26" 'If you go,' she whispered, 'Don't you come back. Not for nothing.' "
0:18:26 > 0:18:29- It is scary.- It's a cracking book.
0:18:29 > 0:18:31I think it's more fun if you're reading it.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34That's how I'd like to hear it.
0:18:34 > 0:18:39Don, almost the same time that Pam was hitting television
0:18:39 > 0:18:44with Opportunity Knocks, along came Rising Damp for you.
0:18:44 > 0:18:49Yes, yes indeed. And it came absolutely out of the blue.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53Rigsby, who's the main character played by Leonard Rossiter,
0:18:53 > 0:18:58is a despicable, racist, bigoted old man, isn't he?
0:18:58 > 0:19:02Well, well, no. I mean, yes, on the one hand,
0:19:02 > 0:19:04but, no, on the other.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08The great thing about that character
0:19:08 > 0:19:13was he was so self-deluding that in the end,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16one had a degree of sympathy
0:19:16 > 0:19:20for just how far outside of himself he was.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24That was the greatness in it, I think.
0:19:24 > 0:19:26Let's have a look.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29This is, he's the landlord and you're one of the tenants.
0:19:29 > 0:19:34If you're the son of a chief, why are you called Smith?
0:19:34 > 0:19:36- That's not my real name. - Of course it isn't.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39- What's your real name, then? - I can't tell you that.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42- My real name is known only to the elders.- Oh!
0:19:42 > 0:19:46My people believe that if a man has your name, he can take your name
0:19:46 > 0:19:49- and work evil with it.- We've got people like that in this country.
0:19:49 > 0:19:52We call them the police.
0:19:52 > 0:19:54Rigsby, Philip's name's taboo.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58Well, if his name's Taboo, why can't he say so? He's being so secretive about it.
0:19:58 > 0:20:00LAUGHTER
0:20:00 > 0:20:03APPLAUSE
0:20:04 > 0:20:08Despite the great success, you were obviously still grappling
0:20:08 > 0:20:12with identity when you look at the next book you've chosen,
0:20:12 > 0:20:15which is The Song Of Solomon by Toni Morrison.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18Yeah, I mean, identity's always been
0:20:18 > 0:20:21the thing that I've searched for,
0:20:21 > 0:20:23and I think it's because
0:20:23 > 0:20:26I'm essentially an immigrant, you know.
0:20:26 > 0:20:31And all immigrants need to find a place to belong,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33and it's how you go about finding that.
0:20:33 > 0:20:38In my case, it would come through literature.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41It's a huge fable.
0:20:41 > 0:20:47It's a fable about people who are held
0:20:47 > 0:20:52in a kind of, erm, unhappy state,
0:20:52 > 0:20:58and how, within that, they find a way of expressing themselves.
0:20:58 > 0:21:03What I found fascinating was the bits of detail which were so real,
0:21:03 > 0:21:07like the fact that the local hospital, a black baby
0:21:07 > 0:21:13had never been born there cos black women couldn't take their babies in.
0:21:13 > 0:21:19And also, it's about the wit of survival, because the hospital
0:21:19 > 0:21:25was called Mercy Hospital, but black people renamed it No-Mercy Hospital
0:21:25 > 0:21:28because black people weren't allowed to be born there.
0:21:28 > 0:21:33It's how you work the system from underneath, which is...
0:21:33 > 0:21:36- It's brilliant. Would you read us a little?- Yes, I will.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42"Macon focused his eyes on his son."
0:21:43 > 0:21:50"Papa couldn't read, couldn't even sign his name. Had a mark he used.
0:21:50 > 0:21:56"They tricked him. He signed something, I don't know what,
0:21:56 > 0:22:02"and they told him they owned his property. He never read nothing.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05"I tried to teach him, but he said he couldn't remember
0:22:05 > 0:22:08"those little marks from one day to the next.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11"Wrote one word in his life.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15"Pilate's name, copied it out of the Bible.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18"That's what she got folded up in that earring.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21"He should have let me teach him.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23"Everything bad that ever happened to him
0:22:23 > 0:22:26"happened because he couldn't read.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28"He got his name messed up cos he couldn't read."
0:22:29 > 0:22:34- Lovely, and a wonderful reading too. And I love the specs.- Thank you.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40Pam, your next choice of book, fabulous again.
0:22:40 > 0:22:45The Complete Book Of Self-Sufficiency by John Seymour,
0:22:45 > 0:22:48and this is an ageing copy, as is the one...
0:22:48 > 0:22:51- My copy's ageing, as well.- Yes.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53I chose this book because as far as I'm concerned,
0:22:53 > 0:22:55it's a book to live by.
0:22:55 > 0:22:58And in the '70s, John Seymour came on the scene
0:22:58 > 0:23:00and he was talking about things
0:23:00 > 0:23:03which people have espoused today.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07He was telling you how to keep a few chickens in the back garden.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09How to perhaps have a hive of bees.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12How to have a compost heap, how to have an allotment.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14And all the things that nowadays people do
0:23:14 > 0:23:18and Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall's talking about and other gurus.
0:23:18 > 0:23:23But John Seymour was there first, and even if you only plant
0:23:23 > 0:23:26a bit of mustard and cress in the windowsill, to do something
0:23:26 > 0:23:30for yourself and not be entirely dependent on the oil companies
0:23:30 > 0:23:32and the supermarkets.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34Do you keep animals nowadays?
0:23:34 > 0:23:37- Yeah, I do. I've got 13 cows. - Really?
0:23:37 > 0:23:43Yes, I've got 13 cows, nine sheep, 17 guinea fowl,
0:23:43 > 0:23:46a host of chickens and usually, four dogs.
0:23:46 > 0:23:49- In how many acres?- 20.
0:23:49 > 0:23:52- So you've become a nob now? - I am a bit of a nob now, Anne, yes.
0:23:52 > 0:23:56No, I'm not a nob, actually, cos nob is the "nobility."
0:23:56 > 0:24:00You have to walk around with your nose in the air to be a nob.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04But 20 acres in Gloucestershire, that's quite nobby, isn't it?
0:24:04 > 0:24:08It is quite nobby. I confess.
0:24:10 > 0:24:15Don, your last choice of book, Everyman by Philip Roth.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17Yeah, it's narrated by a dead man, really.
0:24:17 > 0:24:21The book opens with him being put in the grave,
0:24:21 > 0:24:25and it's how we make arrangements with what's going to happen
0:24:25 > 0:24:30to all of us, really, which is we're going to die.
0:24:30 > 0:24:35- Have you prepared yourself for death?- I don't know that one can,
0:24:35 > 0:24:37I don't think there's any ritual you go through,
0:24:37 > 0:24:41but I guess you prepare yourself for death by the way you live.
0:24:41 > 0:24:46You know, and at a certain age you begin to think, "Well, I don't have
0:24:46 > 0:24:51"that long, again, that I've already had, so it's what's going to happen,
0:24:51 > 0:24:55"and if I can live properly now, then when it comes,
0:24:55 > 0:24:58"providing it's not gruesome and horrible
0:24:58 > 0:25:02"and I've not got a terrible disease, then there it is."
0:25:02 > 0:25:06And what's wonderful and uplifting about this book -
0:25:06 > 0:25:09although it does sound pretty "Hmmm," it isn't -
0:25:09 > 0:25:14is that at the end, he is joyous when death comes.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17He is taken away because he remembers his life.
0:25:17 > 0:25:19He remembers the good bits
0:25:19 > 0:25:23and he remembers the fact that there were people in his life
0:25:23 > 0:25:30that loved him, that gave him a place to be in the world,
0:25:30 > 0:25:31his family.
0:25:31 > 0:25:36And what's joyous about this is that life ends,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40and if we can end it in as comfortable a way as possible,
0:25:40 > 0:25:42then that's fantastic.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45Pam, you're very practical,
0:25:45 > 0:25:48so have you made arrangements for your funeral?
0:25:48 > 0:25:50I can't bear to think about it.
0:25:50 > 0:25:54I can't bear to think about it, I just love life so much.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58I've got such a nice life and a nice family, and a lovely home,
0:25:58 > 0:26:02and this time of year, the snowdrops are all coming up and the aconites,
0:26:02 > 0:26:04and I can't bear to think that they'll be coming up
0:26:04 > 0:26:06and I won't be there to see them.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08I find it heartbreaking.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12And so I tend not to think about the end of life,
0:26:12 > 0:26:16but I'm glad I've had a life that's been jam-packed
0:26:16 > 0:26:18with all sorts of different things.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21So, you haven't got a poem for a burial...?
0:26:21 > 0:26:23Yes, I have.
0:26:23 > 0:26:28The interesting thing is, I suppose if I'm known for anything,
0:26:28 > 0:26:29I'm known for funny poems.
0:26:29 > 0:26:34And once, a few years ago, I wrote a piece called Woodland Burial,
0:26:34 > 0:26:38which is about my own feeling that I would like to be buried
0:26:38 > 0:26:42in a woodland environment, with trees and plants
0:26:42 > 0:26:46and they could use the residue to make something nice.
0:26:46 > 0:26:50I like that idea, and I didn't know whether to publish it or not
0:26:50 > 0:26:52cos I thought, "This is not what people expect from me."
0:26:52 > 0:26:53Anyway, I did,
0:26:53 > 0:26:59and it's been taken up by innumerable natural burial grounds in woodlands,
0:26:59 > 0:27:03and I'm so pleased that I had the courage to show it to people, to say,
0:27:03 > 0:27:05"This is something I've written which is different,
0:27:05 > 0:27:08- "but I hope you like this." - Can we have a couple of lines?
0:27:08 > 0:27:11I'm not sure I can remember all of it. I'll have a little go.
0:27:11 > 0:27:16I didn't know you were going to ask me, but it goes like this...
0:27:16 > 0:27:20"Don't lay me in some gloomy churchyard shaded by a wall,
0:27:20 > 0:27:26"Where the dust of ancient bones has cast a dryness overall.
0:27:26 > 0:27:30"Lay me in some leafy loam, where sheltered from the cold,
0:27:30 > 0:27:35"Tiny seeds investigate and little leaves unfold.
0:27:35 > 0:27:40"There, kindly and affectionately, plant a native tree,
0:27:40 > 0:27:45"To grow resplendent before God and hold some part of me."
0:27:45 > 0:27:47Fantastic.
0:27:47 > 0:27:50APPLAUSE
0:27:52 > 0:27:54I feel tearful now.
0:27:54 > 0:27:59How wonderful. Thank you both very much. Don Warrington and Pam Ayres.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01- Thank you.- Thank you. It's been a real pleasure.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04APPLAUSE