0:00:02 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections -
0:00:03 > 0:00:06specially chosen programmes from the BBC Archive.
0:00:06 > 0:00:07For this Collection,
0:00:07 > 0:00:08Sir Michael Parkinson
0:00:08 > 0:00:10has selected BBC interviews
0:00:10 > 0:00:12with influential figures
0:00:12 > 0:00:13of the 20th century.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15More programmes on this theme
0:00:15 > 0:00:16and other BBC Four Collections
0:00:16 > 0:00:18are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24Evening. I'm often asked which is my favourite interview,
0:00:24 > 0:00:26and it's a question I feel unable to answer because,
0:00:26 > 0:00:29in truth, I haven't got a favourite interview.
0:00:29 > 0:00:32There have been occasions, however, that were particularly special
0:00:32 > 0:00:34and memorable for me for different reasons.
0:00:34 > 0:00:37One such occurred just over two years ago,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40when I interviewed a very remarkable man, Dr Jacob Bronowski.
0:00:40 > 0:00:44At the time, his epic series The Ascent Of Man was being shown.
0:00:44 > 0:00:48He fascinated me because he was one of the few genuine intellectuals
0:00:48 > 0:00:51who had the sublime gift of communicating
0:00:51 > 0:00:53across the broadest possible level.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Well, because of the three-day week
0:00:55 > 0:00:58and the restriction on broadcasting hours at the time,
0:00:58 > 0:01:01we were only able to show a shortened version on BBC Two.
0:01:01 > 0:01:05Sadly, some 18 months ago, Dr Bronowski died,
0:01:05 > 0:01:07and tonight we're going to show you,
0:01:07 > 0:01:09for the first time, the interview in its entirety.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11There are many reasons for doing so.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15One is that what he had to say has as much relevance now as then.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Another, that I believe it to be a testament of a rare human being.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23And also, because, although I haven't got a favourite interview,
0:01:23 > 0:01:26I shall forever remember this meeting.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29APPLAUSE
0:01:43 > 0:01:45Do you find, Dr Bronowski,
0:01:45 > 0:01:47that people are frightened of talking to you,
0:01:47 > 0:01:50in the sense that they're a bit overawed by your reputation
0:01:50 > 0:01:52and your presence?
0:01:54 > 0:01:58I have one very great advantage.
0:01:58 > 0:02:02I don't regard it personally as an advantage, but in being approachable.
0:02:02 > 0:02:05You see, I'm much smaller than people think,
0:02:05 > 0:02:08so that people stop in the street and they look at me and they say,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11quite involuntarily, "Oh, you're much smaller than I thought you were."
0:02:11 > 0:02:12MICHAEL LAUGHS
0:02:12 > 0:02:14That's a great icebreaker.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17I see. So that gives them somehow the advantage, they think.
0:02:17 > 0:02:20When, in fact, did you first become aware of this
0:02:20 > 0:02:22extraordinary mental capacity that you have?
0:02:28 > 0:02:30AUDIENCE LAUGHS
0:02:30 > 0:02:33It's one of those wife-beating questions!
0:02:33 > 0:02:35LAUGHTER
0:02:35 > 0:02:38I have to confess to an extraordinary mental capacity
0:02:38 > 0:02:41of which, truly, I'm not very much aware.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46I had the great good fortune of being born of
0:02:46 > 0:02:49rather clever and rather modest parents.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54So what mental gifts I have, I inherited from my parents.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57But I also inherited from them
0:02:57 > 0:03:01something which was given me by their culture,
0:03:01 > 0:03:06not by what I was born with, namely a simple feeling in the family that...
0:03:08 > 0:03:11..all human beings were pretty smart, you know.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14We were obviously much cleverer than monkeys and cats.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Some people were very much cleverer than monkeys and cats
0:03:17 > 0:03:19and some people somewhat cleverer.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24Um...I was never aware at home
0:03:24 > 0:03:30that what I could do was extraordinary.
0:03:30 > 0:03:36And to this day, I never approach a piece of work,
0:03:36 > 0:03:39whether it's writing, thinking,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42whether it's science or this evening...
0:03:43 > 0:03:47..in any other spirit than, "That sounds interesting, let's do it."
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Yes.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51If I don't do it very well, I'd say afterwards,
0:03:51 > 0:03:53- "You just didn't work hard enough." - Yes.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56An eminent authority - your wife, no less, I think...
0:03:56 > 0:03:58JACOB LAUGHS
0:03:58 > 0:04:01..once described you as having a mind that could see round corners.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04Was she right? And if so, what does that mean?
0:04:06 > 0:04:11I think she's right in saying that I have a strongly visual mind.
0:04:11 > 0:04:18That is to say that I think of every problem as having a shape.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20I visualise every problem.
0:04:20 > 0:04:24And I suppose you could say around corners
0:04:24 > 0:04:27in the sense that all human abilities are thinking ahead
0:04:27 > 0:04:31to things which are not already present to the vision.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33We think in images.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35The word "imagination" means that.
0:04:35 > 0:04:40Yes, I am a good imaginative thinker in the very simple sense of
0:04:40 > 0:04:44- working with images. - Mmm.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47I should give you a practical example of that.
0:04:47 > 0:04:53Um, I was in Japan in 1945, and the very first thing that struck me
0:04:53 > 0:04:58when I arrived in Japan was that the people were all very small.
0:05:00 > 0:05:02You know, the Japanese in 1945,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05having been starved through years of war,
0:05:05 > 0:05:09were so small that when the men came to take our luggage off the plane,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12I thought they were schoolboys.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15Well, that made a great impression on me,
0:05:15 > 0:05:18but it's not an impression of little men running around,
0:05:18 > 0:05:21and big men - by Japanese standards, I was quite a big man...
0:05:21 > 0:05:22Ha, big men!
0:05:22 > 0:05:25Nobody stopped you in the street over there?
0:05:25 > 0:05:28No! No, no.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32But I at once had the vision of there being
0:05:32 > 0:05:40a sort of mountain of Japanese size and a mountain of European size,
0:05:40 > 0:05:45and that European people were grouped round this average peak
0:05:45 > 0:05:46and Japanese around this,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49and that these two mountains didn't overlap much.
0:05:49 > 0:05:52If you think of a problem in that way, it's easier to solve.
0:05:52 > 0:05:54That's extraordinary, though,
0:05:54 > 0:05:57I don't think most people's minds would figure that out at all.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59I mean, even now you've explained it,
0:05:59 > 0:06:01I find it very difficult to understand it!
0:06:01 > 0:06:03LAUGHTER
0:06:03 > 0:06:06- To be frank. - Try.
0:06:06 > 0:06:08Well, later on, I won't sort of sit here,
0:06:08 > 0:06:10I've got other things to think about.
0:06:10 > 0:06:15Let's talk about your early life, because in fact you spent some years,
0:06:15 > 0:06:19didn't you, in your childhood in Germany during the First World War?
0:06:19 > 0:06:21When you look back at that,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24do you regard it as being a traumatic experience?
0:06:25 > 0:06:28Well, of course it was a traumatic experience,
0:06:28 > 0:06:30but it didn't strike me so at the time.
0:06:30 > 0:06:34You see, I was in Germany as a child.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37The war broke out in 1914, when I was six.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43It came to an end in 1918, when I was ten.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46I was a very patriotic little German,
0:06:46 > 0:06:48but, in fact, I was a Russian by nationality.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50So I was an enemy alien.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52My parents were enemy aliens.
0:06:52 > 0:06:55We were not very well treated by the Germans.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57Um...
0:06:59 > 0:07:03But I think it just made me at home in the world.
0:07:03 > 0:07:06I've always lived in countries that I haven't been born in.
0:07:06 > 0:07:07You know, I was born in Lodz,
0:07:07 > 0:07:12and the last time I was in Lodz was in 1913, that's 60 years ago.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14Yes.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16So it gave you a capacity, in effect,
0:07:16 > 0:07:18to make your home wherever you were...
0:07:18 > 0:07:20- Yes. - ..without feeling out of place.
0:07:20 > 0:07:23Can you recall your first...? You then came to England, of course.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Can you recall your first impressions of England?
0:07:26 > 0:07:27I remember them very well.
0:07:27 > 0:07:31I came up in the train from Harwich to London.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34And as we came into London,
0:07:34 > 0:07:40the train ran through all those backs of endless rows of houses.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44And they all had chimneys with chimneypots and cowls on.
0:07:44 > 0:07:46That was a thing I'd never seen.
0:07:46 > 0:07:50And chimneypots and chimney cowls and smoke belching out of them
0:07:50 > 0:07:54dominated my visual image of London
0:07:54 > 0:07:57and of England for many years after that.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59Really? The other thing is the language,
0:07:59 > 0:08:02because you obviously didn't speak English when you arrived here,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05and now, of course, you speak English without a trace of accent whatsoever.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07Did you, in fact, at the time,
0:08:07 > 0:08:09did you have difficulty learning the language?
0:08:14 > 0:08:20I had difficulty in learning to speak English,
0:08:20 > 0:08:23as you so charmingly say, without a trace of accent -
0:08:23 > 0:08:25I don't think that's quite true.
0:08:25 > 0:08:28But, at any rate, in speaking it as well as I do,
0:08:28 > 0:08:31because I'm not a very good mimic, but I had no difficulty in learning
0:08:31 > 0:08:34English as a literary language,
0:08:34 > 0:08:36and you see, it's a very beautiful language.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39When I had been in England for about a month,
0:08:39 > 0:08:45a boy at school took me to the Whitechapel Library.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48And there, a very elderly librarian said to me,
0:08:48 > 0:08:50"Well, if you're going to learn English,
0:08:50 > 0:08:52"you should start by reading a simple book."
0:08:52 > 0:08:56- And he lent me Midshipman Easy. - Yeah.
0:08:56 > 0:09:01And I remember that I was struck in Midshipman Easy
0:09:01 > 0:09:05by the use of the phrase, "hoist with his own petard".
0:09:05 > 0:09:07LAUGHTER
0:09:07 > 0:09:10Which I later discovered had not been invented by Marryat at all,
0:09:10 > 0:09:13but by Shakespeare. But of course, I didn't know any better at the time.
0:09:13 > 0:09:15I thought that was lovely.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17And English has always struck me as a language
0:09:17 > 0:09:21which is full of these marvellous historic metaphors.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23Very concise, very precise.
0:09:23 > 0:09:29It's a language that I fell in love with at the age of, I suppose...
0:09:29 > 0:09:31I came here when I was 12,
0:09:31 > 0:09:38so I suppose I was 14 when I first began to memorise English poems.
0:09:38 > 0:09:41And I was made to memorise, by my form master,
0:09:41 > 0:09:43the whole of Gray's Elegy.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45And I stood in front of the class
0:09:45 > 0:09:48and I read Gray's Elegy from beginning to end, you know.
0:09:48 > 0:09:49Mmm.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53"Can storied urn or animated bust back to its mansion
0:09:53 > 0:09:55"call the fleeting breath?"
0:09:55 > 0:09:57And all those wonderful lines.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59And he listened to me.
0:10:00 > 0:10:05The class all opened their desk and ate their lunch!
0:10:05 > 0:10:08And then at the end, he said, very cruelly,
0:10:08 > 0:10:11"One day I shall hope to hear you say it in English."
0:10:11 > 0:10:13LAUGHTER
0:10:13 > 0:10:15Unkind, but...
0:10:15 > 0:10:18- Crushing, I would have thought. - Well, you see...
0:10:21 > 0:10:24..learning to understand that people are not really as unkind
0:10:24 > 0:10:27as they express themselves is probably what I learnt in Germany
0:10:27 > 0:10:29and what I learnt as a small boy in England.
0:10:29 > 0:10:31- It did me a world of good. - Yes.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34At that time, when you were there in your early teens,
0:10:34 > 0:10:37did you know then that you wanted to be a scientist?
0:10:37 > 0:10:39No, not particularly.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43You see, one of the great merits of learning English at that time is that
0:10:43 > 0:10:48I learnt English, mathematics, chemistry all at the same time.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53Well, what does that mean?
0:10:53 > 0:10:57It means that, when you are struggling with the word for water,
0:10:57 > 0:11:00which is a very difficult word to pronounce -
0:11:00 > 0:11:03you just listen to an American and you'll see how difficult it is!
0:11:03 > 0:11:05LAUGHTER
0:11:05 > 0:11:07And at the same time,
0:11:07 > 0:11:12you're learning that it's written as H2O in the class upstairs...
0:11:14 > 0:11:18You suddenly realise that all science, all mathematics,
0:11:18 > 0:11:21each of them is a language for expressing
0:11:21 > 0:11:25the relations in nature in a different way.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26And that was a marvellous experience.
0:11:26 > 0:11:28I never thought of myself,
0:11:28 > 0:11:30particularly, as a scientist or a literary figure,
0:11:30 > 0:11:33I edited the school magazine in a very short time.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36But I loved them all because of this sense
0:11:36 > 0:11:40that one was unpicking the world,
0:11:40 > 0:11:42finding the strands that run through it,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45because language was the key to that.
0:11:45 > 0:11:49And each way of looking at the world had a language of its own.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53You just really, actually, answered something that slightly bothers me
0:11:53 > 0:11:55and I think a lot of people, who can't see,
0:11:55 > 0:11:57I think you explained it there,
0:11:57 > 0:12:00the link between the scientist who writes poetry,
0:12:00 > 0:12:02they see it as essentially a conflict -
0:12:02 > 0:12:06one of artistic values, the other of mathematical values.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09And yet you say that, in fact, they're all of a piece,
0:12:09 > 0:12:12so one shouldn't be surprised that you have, like yourself,
0:12:12 > 0:12:14a scientist who writes poetry.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16Well, most people could do practically anything
0:12:16 > 0:12:18if they put their minds to it.
0:12:18 > 0:12:22I can't think of many poets who've achieved eminence in your field.
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Well, Humphry Davy, you know, was uncertain
0:12:25 > 0:12:28whether he was going to be a scientist or a poet.
0:12:28 > 0:12:33It was really only because Coleridge persuaded him that he, Coleridge,
0:12:33 > 0:12:35was a much better poet that Humphry Davy
0:12:35 > 0:12:38decided to settle for being a scientist!
0:12:38 > 0:12:40Well, that shows a scientific mind at work!
0:12:40 > 0:12:43I must warn you that I'm simplifying that story a little,
0:12:43 > 0:12:45but I have the crux of it right.
0:12:45 > 0:12:47Do you, in fact, still write poetry?
0:12:47 > 0:12:51Yes, I still write one poem a year, at Christmas time.
0:12:51 > 0:12:55I lock myself away and I think of one statement to make
0:12:55 > 0:12:58about what happened to me and to my mind during the year
0:12:58 > 0:13:01which I send to people at Christmas time.
0:13:01 > 0:13:05Really? Can you remember the last one you did?
0:13:06 > 0:13:09The last one I did is about Watergate
0:13:09 > 0:13:14and I think that is too... prickly and explosive a subject!
0:13:17 > 0:13:20But I will tell you, if I can remember it,
0:13:20 > 0:13:23a very characteristic poem
0:13:23 > 0:13:28that I wrote, it must have been about 1965 or '66,
0:13:28 > 0:13:31when I had just settled in California.
0:13:31 > 0:13:38I had discovered that California was a country that everybody went to
0:13:38 > 0:13:40as if it were an El Dorado.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42They went full of ambition,
0:13:42 > 0:13:44and they all thought that the promised land was there.
0:13:44 > 0:13:48And naturally, they all wanted the promised land without working for it,
0:13:48 > 0:13:52you know, that's what stops most people from doing anything.
0:13:52 > 0:13:57They think that they're going to win it in the pools.
0:13:57 > 0:14:02And you can win everything in the pools except the desire to win.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06Well, California struck me that way very much.
0:14:06 > 0:14:11I was very upset about people wanting to have success so easily,
0:14:11 > 0:14:12and I wrote a poem...
0:14:14 > 0:14:16..which goes like this.
0:14:19 > 0:14:23This is the coast the lemmings reached
0:14:23 > 0:14:27They did not drown but simply beached
0:14:27 > 0:14:31Here after agonies and less
0:14:31 > 0:14:35They found the go-go star success
0:14:35 > 0:14:37The goddess in the wilderness
0:14:37 > 0:14:40who shook her breast and blessed the West
0:14:45 > 0:14:47She beckoned from the burning glass
0:14:47 > 0:14:50Medusa with a face of brass
0:14:50 > 0:14:54And with her sunset fingertip
0:14:54 > 0:15:00Wrote as if in magnesium strip
0:15:00 > 0:15:05A rain check on the hall of fame
0:15:05 > 0:15:08Make a cross and put your name.
0:15:09 > 0:15:10That's super.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Well, you know...
0:15:13 > 0:15:15APPLAUSE
0:15:19 > 0:15:22What you do, in effect, is you deliver this sort of private message
0:15:22 > 0:15:26to your friends every year, you don't publish or anything like that.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28The thing that interests me,
0:15:28 > 0:15:34do you ever long for the bohemian life of the artist?
0:15:34 > 0:15:39One imagines that your life is so ordered and planned.
0:15:39 > 0:15:40Hah!
0:15:40 > 0:15:44I live in a community of artists now who are so bohemian
0:15:44 > 0:15:49that you can't find them under their sweaters.
0:15:49 > 0:15:50LAUGHTER
0:15:50 > 0:15:56You know, 20 years ago, when Einstein used to pad around
0:15:56 > 0:16:00in those funny old sweaters and slippers and no socks,
0:16:00 > 0:16:02everybody thought how marvellous, how outrageous,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05you had to be a great man to dress like that.
0:16:05 > 0:16:08Well, now they've found that you wear the clothes
0:16:08 > 0:16:11and let posterity take care of the rest!
0:16:11 > 0:16:15- A rain check on the hall of fame. - Yes.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20But to answer your question seriously,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23I have had many bohemian friends.
0:16:23 > 0:16:29For instance, for a short time towards the end of his life,
0:16:29 > 0:16:30I knew Dylan Thomas quite well.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33- Really? - I liked him very much as a person.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36And he was always very charming.
0:16:36 > 0:16:41Er...people are not in awe of me in the street,
0:16:41 > 0:16:44but friends who come from poetry or the arts and so on
0:16:44 > 0:16:47have just that touch of awe which makes them behave
0:16:47 > 0:16:50somewhat better with me than they do with others.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54And Dylan Thomas, I think, behaved exceptionally well with me.
0:16:54 > 0:16:58But I thought that I just couldn't stand his life.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02I just thought that the notion that you would wake up
0:17:02 > 0:17:06very late in the morning and say to yourself,
0:17:06 > 0:17:12"Have the kids gone to school? Who's driving my wife to the supermarket?
0:17:12 > 0:17:14"Who has the car?" and so on,
0:17:14 > 0:17:17were too deeply ingrained in my outlook
0:17:17 > 0:17:20for my ever being able to dismiss those.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24Now, I was very sorry about this because I also realised
0:17:24 > 0:17:27that you can't write poetry like Dylan Thomas's
0:17:27 > 0:17:29without a wonderful air of irresponsibility,
0:17:29 > 0:17:32where you say, "To hell with the second car
0:17:32 > 0:17:36"and the supermarket, this is life, this is how I think."
0:17:36 > 0:17:39And all this rather tidy poetry that I write,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42and have just told you, comes from a different temperament.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45I just don't have the temperament to be a bohemian.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47Do I regret it?
0:17:47 > 0:17:49Well, of course I regret never having written
0:17:49 > 0:17:52- poems as beautiful as Dylan Thomas. - Yes.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55But then, what about the, I suppose, irresponsibility,
0:17:55 > 0:17:57if one can put it, of the poet like Thomas?
0:17:57 > 0:18:00Because although, as you say, he lived in this style
0:18:00 > 0:18:02and created this magnificent poetry,
0:18:02 > 0:18:04he also killed himself, didn't he, by doing it?
0:18:04 > 0:18:06Well, that was his lookout.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08LAUGHTER
0:18:08 > 0:18:12Doesn't he have a responsibility to those around him who love him too?
0:18:18 > 0:18:20I think they accepted him for what he was.
0:18:20 > 0:18:23He was a very splendid person. Of course, I was very sorry
0:18:23 > 0:18:26when he killed himself for what seemed to me ridiculous reasons.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28But you know, people are of a piece.
0:18:28 > 0:18:32You can't think that you can go round in a kleptomaniac way,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35like a shoplifter in the Almighty's supermarket,
0:18:35 > 0:18:38picking out something that you like here...
0:18:38 > 0:18:40"I'll have a little brain there," and so on.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43If you'll forgive my saying so, I'm reminded of McCarthy
0:18:43 > 0:18:46and the Committee for Un-American Activities
0:18:46 > 0:18:49when I was in America back in 1953,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52who kept on having great scientists in front of them
0:18:52 > 0:18:53and would say to them,
0:18:53 > 0:18:56"We understand about you being a great scientist,
0:18:56 > 0:18:59"but why are you such a radical in politics?
0:18:59 > 0:19:02"Couldn't you be a nice conservative like me and Mr Nixon?"
0:19:02 > 0:19:04LAUGHTER
0:19:04 > 0:19:09And one couldn't explain to them that being a scientist,
0:19:09 > 0:19:14and being a poet, being an original person, meant a very questioning,
0:19:14 > 0:19:22a very rebellious, a very...uncomfortable way of life.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25And that's what makes progress in the human race.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27You know, if there hadn't been some monkeys who had been
0:19:27 > 0:19:31very awkward children, there would be no human race.
0:19:31 > 0:19:33LAUGHTER
0:19:33 > 0:19:37It was the children who disobeyed their monkey parents
0:19:37 > 0:19:38who are our ancestors.
0:19:40 > 0:19:42How?
0:19:42 > 0:19:45LAUGHTER
0:19:45 > 0:19:51By forming a more adventurous strain than living by those habitual ways
0:19:51 > 0:19:55that their respectable monkey parents lived.
0:19:55 > 0:20:00You know, somewhere between 5 million years ago and 20 million years ago,
0:20:00 > 0:20:05those nice, Sunday morning church-going chimpanzees
0:20:05 > 0:20:08went down the road and some little kid broke away.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10- I'm simplifying the story, but... - Of course.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18But, in essence, it's true.
0:20:18 > 0:20:23And they, by physique and by temperament, did different things.
0:20:23 > 0:20:27Actually, they faced a great crisis at that time.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30Er...the land was drying up,
0:20:30 > 0:20:34the African forest near the equator was thinning out.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37And they were faced with a way of life
0:20:37 > 0:20:41which had to be changed if they were to survive.
0:20:41 > 0:20:43And they changed by coming down...
0:20:43 > 0:20:46We used to think by actually coming down to the ground.
0:20:46 > 0:20:49They didn't do quite that, but they had to learn to hop,
0:20:49 > 0:20:52as it were, from one surviving grove of trees to the other.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54And that's how they came to stand upright,
0:20:54 > 0:21:01that's how they came to begin to...er...use their hands
0:21:01 > 0:21:05rather than their mouth, and so on.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08They didn't acquire these habits.
0:21:08 > 0:21:11But the ones among them who were clever like that
0:21:11 > 0:21:14were the ones who survived, and they are our ancestors.
0:21:14 > 0:21:19Yes. Can I ask you now about the fame that you acquired
0:21:19 > 0:21:23on television and radio? Television fame particularly.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25As I say, in the sort of '50s and so,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28you were one of the first big television personalities.
0:21:28 > 0:21:31Did it ever have the effect on your fellow scientists that,
0:21:31 > 0:21:33because of your fame and your public appeal,
0:21:33 > 0:21:36that they didn't take you seriously as a scientist?
0:21:37 > 0:21:38Oh, I'm sure it did.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42You know, this is not the kind of thing that people say to your face.
0:21:42 > 0:21:44I mean, when they ask you to dinner, they don't sort of say,
0:21:44 > 0:21:46"Oh, good evening, Dr Bronowski..."
0:21:46 > 0:21:48Er...
0:21:48 > 0:21:52"Of course, we wouldn't confess to having watched your programme,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54"but we saw your explanation about human evolution
0:21:54 > 0:21:57"the other day and, you know, it's not sound, it's not sound!"
0:21:57 > 0:21:59LAUGHTER
0:21:59 > 0:22:01They don't actually say that, but naturally,
0:22:01 > 0:22:02that's what you have to suffer.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04Well, um...
0:22:09 > 0:22:11If I had to do it again, I'd do it just the same way.
0:22:11 > 0:22:14- You enjoyed it? - No, not because I enjoyed it.
0:22:14 > 0:22:16I enjoy everything.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19I don't have to hide from you the fact that I would be
0:22:19 > 0:22:22enjoying this conversation even if you were a pretty girl.
0:22:22 > 0:22:25LAUGHTER
0:22:25 > 0:22:27APPLAUSE
0:22:30 > 0:22:33I'm not sure that I would, but...
0:22:33 > 0:22:34LAUGHTER
0:22:34 > 0:22:41I have been fortunate in just having immense enjoyment of life
0:22:41 > 0:22:46and, happily, I enjoy what are called intellectual pursuits,
0:22:46 > 0:22:49marginally more than mere physical pursuits.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52I should like you to be a pretty, INTELLIGENT girl.
0:22:52 > 0:22:57To come back to what we were saying,
0:22:57 > 0:22:59would I do it again because I enjoyed it?
0:22:59 > 0:23:01No, I would do it again
0:23:01 > 0:23:04because I came to it from a deep sense
0:23:04 > 0:23:08that science was reaching a stage
0:23:08 > 0:23:13where those scientists who had a special talent
0:23:13 > 0:23:17for speaking simply and explicitly
0:23:17 > 0:23:21also had a great duty laid on them to do so.
0:23:21 > 0:23:25And I am as proud of colleagues of mine
0:23:25 > 0:23:28who did that and have died - JD Bernal,
0:23:28 > 0:23:30the great JBS Haldane -
0:23:30 > 0:23:32as I am of anything that I have done.
0:23:32 > 0:23:34- Mm. - I would have done...
0:23:36 > 0:23:41..no doubt, more academic scientific work if I had given more time to it
0:23:41 > 0:23:44and less time to gossiping with you.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47Er...
0:23:47 > 0:23:51but whether I would have done anything
0:23:51 > 0:23:55half as important in the...
0:23:57 > 0:23:59..spread of a...
0:24:01 > 0:24:04..liberal attitude towards the scientists,
0:24:04 > 0:24:06towards the sciences
0:24:06 > 0:24:10and, above all, towards intellectual ideas,
0:24:10 > 0:24:12no, I don't think I would have done.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14I don't think I could have done better with my talents
0:24:14 > 0:24:17than what I have done.
0:24:17 > 0:24:19Sorry, go on.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23I was going to ask you that, on that programme particularly,
0:24:23 > 0:24:27you became known as the man who had an answer for absolutely everything -
0:24:27 > 0:24:31an instant sort of fact, or not necessarily a fact -
0:24:31 > 0:24:34an idea about something. Were you ever floored?
0:24:34 > 0:24:36Was there anything that defeated you on that programme?
0:24:36 > 0:24:39Well, there were some questions asked on the programme on which,
0:24:39 > 0:24:43fortunately, I was not present, to which I didn't know the answer.
0:24:43 > 0:24:45I mean, there's a classical question
0:24:45 > 0:24:49about how a fly lands upside-down on a ceiling,
0:24:49 > 0:24:51to which I didn't know the answer then,
0:24:51 > 0:24:53and, thank God, I don't know it now...
0:24:53 > 0:24:54LAUGHTER
0:24:54 > 0:24:56..because I do not think that you need to
0:24:56 > 0:24:59have your mind stuffed with a lot of irrelevant facts.
0:24:59 > 0:25:05But on the programme, I don't think that I was ever asked anything
0:25:05 > 0:25:09to which I didn't know, in a rough way,
0:25:09 > 0:25:13why it went that particular way, why, you know...
0:25:15 > 0:25:17How nature does that particular trick.
0:25:17 > 0:25:19Cos, you know, I mean,
0:25:19 > 0:25:22the only pleasure of being a scientist
0:25:22 > 0:25:26is that nature produces all these wonderful complications
0:25:26 > 0:25:28from such marvellous, simple devices
0:25:28 > 0:25:32about which the most marvellous thing is
0:25:32 > 0:25:36that the human brain is actually capable of understanding.
0:25:36 > 0:25:37Yes. Yes.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40Can I go back now a little bit in your life
0:25:40 > 0:25:43to the point where you were in England and...to the point,
0:25:43 > 0:25:45in fact, where you went to America, actually?
0:25:45 > 0:25:48It's not going back, is it? What reasons, in fact,
0:25:48 > 0:25:50made you go to the States in the first place?
0:25:51 > 0:25:58I suddenly discovered... that I was...55.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04You know, you sort of wake up to that one fine day
0:26:04 > 0:26:08because, until then, you feel youthful and splendid
0:26:08 > 0:26:10and life seems to be going on for ever
0:26:10 > 0:26:13and you put things off.
0:26:13 > 0:26:15Er, I had been working at what I regarded as
0:26:15 > 0:26:22a very important project for the Coal Board, which, er,
0:26:22 > 0:26:26was now at a stage where engineers should take it over.
0:26:29 > 0:26:35And I realised that I probably had ten good active years left,
0:26:35 > 0:26:37during which I would be able to think,
0:26:37 > 0:26:43not as fast as I used to think, but still with sufficient attention,
0:26:43 > 0:26:46because what goes as you grow older is simply your attention span.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48How long can you keep at it?
0:26:49 > 0:26:51So I just made up my mind
0:26:51 > 0:26:55that as soon as somebody made me a decent offer, I would accept it.
0:26:55 > 0:26:58By decent offer, I meant that I didn't want to lecture,
0:26:58 > 0:27:02I wanted to be away from anybody who asked me
0:27:02 > 0:27:04to go on television shows...
0:27:04 > 0:27:06LAUGHTER I didn't...
0:27:06 > 0:27:10I just wanted to do the research that I was now devoted to.
0:27:10 > 0:27:13And since that had to do with what makes human beings special,
0:27:13 > 0:27:17it was a subject which I knew was going to be important in the future
0:27:17 > 0:27:20and that I could do something to found because, you know,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23I am in process of helping to found what is really
0:27:23 > 0:27:25a new academic discipline.
0:27:25 > 0:27:28Yes. How readily did America take to you?
0:27:28 > 0:27:30How did it initially react to you?
0:27:32 > 0:27:36Well, of course, they asked me because I had a...
0:27:37 > 0:27:41..a good reputation in America because I had written a book
0:27:41 > 0:27:46called Science And Human Values, which...
0:27:48 > 0:27:52..students were made to read in their first year at college,
0:27:52 > 0:27:55ever since it was published in 1953 -
0:27:55 > 0:27:59that was 20 years ago, it's just the 20th anniversary in...
0:27:59 > 0:28:00of that.
0:28:00 > 0:28:03And that book had made a great impression
0:28:03 > 0:28:06on the American public, much more so than here.
0:28:06 > 0:28:09It was given as a set of invited lectures
0:28:09 > 0:28:12at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
0:28:12 > 0:28:15And in it, I had simply said, for the first time,
0:28:15 > 0:28:20that you can't be a scientist without also a deep sense
0:28:20 > 0:28:23of not only the accuracy of what you do,
0:28:23 > 0:28:27but the honesty, the values, the human involvement.
0:28:27 > 0:28:29And that's why it was called Science And Human Values.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31I invented the phrase "human values"
0:28:31 > 0:28:34for that, er, programme... for that, er...
0:28:34 > 0:28:39series of lectures and I've often regretted it since then
0:28:39 > 0:28:43because one ought to invent phrases that people will identify with you,
0:28:43 > 0:28:46not phrases that they'll just steal! LAUGHTER
0:28:46 > 0:28:47What are the essential differences
0:28:47 > 0:28:52that you've observed, Dr Bronowski, between Britons and Americans?
0:28:52 > 0:28:55Are they that very much different, do you think?
0:29:00 > 0:29:02There are many differences.
0:29:03 > 0:29:07Er, one of them is that America is not homogeneous.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09Er...
0:29:09 > 0:29:11Britain is a country with
0:29:11 > 0:29:15well-accepted traditions of behaviour.
0:29:16 > 0:29:18Er...
0:29:21 > 0:29:24When a foreigner like me comes to this country,
0:29:24 > 0:29:29he is encouraged to speak the language like a native
0:29:29 > 0:29:31at the earliest possible moment.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33He is even encouraged to change his name
0:29:33 > 0:29:36as soon as possible, which I didn't do,
0:29:36 > 0:29:38because, like musicians, scientists on the whole
0:29:38 > 0:29:41do better if they have outlandish names.
0:29:41 > 0:29:42LAUGHTER
0:29:42 > 0:29:45Er... Well, now, in America, none of this is true.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47I mean, as you will know from the example of Dr Kissinger,
0:29:47 > 0:29:50it's a positive advantage to speak English
0:29:50 > 0:29:55with a foreign accent in America, and I don't mean an American accent.
0:29:55 > 0:29:56LAUGHTER
0:29:56 > 0:30:00Um...it's always astonishing to me.
0:30:00 > 0:30:01The first time I went to
0:30:01 > 0:30:05a very secret American atomic energy establishment,
0:30:05 > 0:30:07I heard so many Russian accents
0:30:07 > 0:30:09that I said to the head of the establishment at the end,
0:30:09 > 0:30:12"Do you know, I wonder, if I go to Omsk,
0:30:12 > 0:30:15"if everybody will speak Russian with an American accent!"
0:30:15 > 0:30:16LAUGHTER
0:30:17 > 0:30:21The other great difference that strikes you...
0:30:23 > 0:30:25..really stems from that.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28I say "stems from that" because what I've just said is that
0:30:28 > 0:30:30America is not very homogeneous,
0:30:30 > 0:30:33therefore everybody brings their own traditions to it.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36They behave like the Quaker stuff
0:30:36 > 0:30:39from which they came, or, most of my colleagues,
0:30:39 > 0:30:41like the Polish stuff from which they came.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44You know, people stop me in the street in America
0:30:44 > 0:30:46who actually know me, they speak to me in Polish -
0:30:46 > 0:30:49a language which I don't speak any more.
0:30:49 > 0:30:50Er...
0:30:52 > 0:30:55..and that makes all questions of moral values
0:30:55 > 0:30:56and so on very difficult in America,
0:30:56 > 0:30:59because people don't share common tradition.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02Now, that leads to the second point, which is,
0:31:02 > 0:31:05it's a tremendously do-it-yourself society.
0:31:05 > 0:31:07I'll tell you a little story.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12I arrived in America in 1953 to give the very lectures
0:31:12 > 0:31:13to which I referred,
0:31:13 > 0:31:17called Science And Human Values at MIT.
0:31:17 > 0:31:19And it was a very difficult time -
0:31:19 > 0:31:23the McCarthy Committee was just sitting,
0:31:23 > 0:31:26the McCarran Act had just been passed,
0:31:26 > 0:31:30er...it was very difficult to get a visa.
0:31:30 > 0:31:31Er...
0:31:33 > 0:31:35..I, as a university teacher...
0:31:38 > 0:31:40..had to go to the American Embassy,
0:31:40 > 0:31:43and take a test to show that I was free from venereal disease!
0:31:43 > 0:31:45LAUGHTER
0:31:45 > 0:31:48My wife, as the wife of a university teacher,
0:31:48 > 0:31:49did not have to take such a test.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51LAUGHTER
0:31:51 > 0:31:53I always thought that that said something
0:31:53 > 0:31:55very remarkable about the Americans,
0:31:55 > 0:31:59but I've been thinking for 20 years what it said, and I still don't know!
0:31:59 > 0:32:02LAUGHTER
0:32:02 > 0:32:04Now...
0:32:04 > 0:32:07I arrived on a very cold morning
0:32:07 > 0:32:10at about five in the morning, on the quayside in New York
0:32:10 > 0:32:12on a French boat called the Liberte.
0:32:15 > 0:32:17And my luggage was unloaded
0:32:17 > 0:32:22and I had brought with me copies of my book on Blake,
0:32:22 > 0:32:24which had newly been published.
0:32:24 > 0:32:28And a very small man... you know, great coat
0:32:28 > 0:32:32and a cap and covered with badges and so on,
0:32:32 > 0:32:35began to go through my luggage, and held in his hand
0:32:35 > 0:32:38the piece of paper on which I'd declared what was in there.
0:32:38 > 0:32:39Well, I come from that sort of simple,
0:32:39 > 0:32:43honest European stock where I'd actually written down what I had
0:32:43 > 0:32:45and it said, "12 copies of book on William Blake".
0:32:47 > 0:32:52He said to me, "You know, by rights, bud,
0:32:52 > 0:32:54"I ought to read every one of those!"
0:32:54 > 0:32:55I said, "Be my guest"...
0:32:55 > 0:32:57LAUGHTER
0:32:57 > 0:33:00..and sat down on one of my suitcases.
0:33:00 > 0:33:02And he blanched at this.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05And he opened one and he looked here and there.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11There's a bit towards the end about Karl Marx,
0:33:11 > 0:33:13which I suddenly remembered and I thought to myself,
0:33:13 > 0:33:15"God, I shouldn't have asked him that!"
0:33:15 > 0:33:16But there it was, it was too late.
0:33:16 > 0:33:20Then he looked at it, he looked at me, and he said,
0:33:20 > 0:33:22"You write this, bud?"
0:33:22 > 0:33:24So I said, rather proudly, "Yes."
0:33:24 > 0:33:28He said, "This ain't never going to be no bestseller!"
0:33:28 > 0:33:31LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE
0:33:37 > 0:33:40That's just true, and I bet you that man thought
0:33:40 > 0:33:43he said the most natural thing in the world.
0:33:43 > 0:33:46I mean, literary criticism is obviously a natural gift
0:33:46 > 0:33:48of customs officials.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50LAUGHTER
0:33:50 > 0:33:53Well, that tells you all!
0:33:53 > 0:33:55I mean, sometimes girls say it in funnier ways,
0:33:55 > 0:33:57sometimes men say it in funnier ways.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00But by and large, there is this curious feeling
0:34:00 > 0:34:03that everybody is the judge of everything.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06That makes life very different from this country.
0:34:06 > 0:34:10Can we now talk about the extraordinary documentary series
0:34:10 > 0:34:13that you did on the BBC called The Ascent Of Man.
0:34:13 > 0:34:15Anybody, of course, who...
0:34:15 > 0:34:17You filmed over a heck of a long period
0:34:17 > 0:34:19and anybody who's ever been filming knows
0:34:19 > 0:34:21there are moments both tragic and humorous
0:34:21 > 0:34:23when you're making a documentary.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27What, in fact, was the funniest moment you had, do you think,
0:34:27 > 0:34:29over all the time that you were filming?
0:34:35 > 0:34:37HE CHUCKLES
0:34:37 > 0:34:40I suppose the funniest moment, from the producer's point of view,
0:34:40 > 0:34:43was the night he locked me in my bedroom on Easter Island
0:34:43 > 0:34:48and I, who had drunk far too much, I couldn't get out!
0:34:48 > 0:34:49LAUGHTER
0:34:49 > 0:34:52But I will pass over the disasters...
0:34:52 > 0:34:56The moment that always stuck in my mind...
0:34:56 > 0:34:57I'll ask you about that later.
0:34:57 > 0:35:00LAUGHTER
0:35:00 > 0:35:02The moment that has most stuck in my mind
0:35:02 > 0:35:05is a moment when I arrived in Jerusalem.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08Now, I had been to the Middle East before,
0:35:08 > 0:35:11but at that time, Jerusalem was a divided city.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13And we were going to do some filming in Jerusalem,
0:35:13 > 0:35:20and I went up to a taxi driver on a very rainy afternoon
0:35:20 > 0:35:24and I said, "Will you drive me to Calvary?"
0:35:26 > 0:35:31And he said, "I can't take you all the way.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35"Calvary is a one-way street."
0:35:35 > 0:35:36LAUGHTER
0:35:36 > 0:35:38"You have to walk part of the way."
0:35:38 > 0:35:40LAUGHTER
0:35:40 > 0:35:43And in retrospect, that seemed to me so exotic.
0:35:43 > 0:35:47I mean, he didn't think he was funny any more than the customs man.
0:35:47 > 0:35:49But it seemed to me just to summarise
0:35:49 > 0:35:52what happens to you all the time on the series,
0:35:52 > 0:35:55that your mind is bound up with what you're doing,
0:35:55 > 0:35:58you're about to walk the road of Christ.
0:35:58 > 0:36:02Er, we were about to do a sequence which you will have seen in number 13
0:36:02 > 0:36:05of Christ coming down the Mount of Olives
0:36:05 > 0:36:08and looking over before they enter into Jerusalem.
0:36:08 > 0:36:11And I wanted to see it all on the spot, but to him,
0:36:11 > 0:36:13Calvary was a one-way street.
0:36:13 > 0:36:16Yes. That's progress, is it, I suppose? Invented a one-way street.
0:36:16 > 0:36:19What about... One assumes, actually, looking at the series
0:36:19 > 0:36:21and reading your book as well,
0:36:21 > 0:36:24that one of the most horrific moments for you, personally, must have been
0:36:24 > 0:36:26going back to Auschwitz.
0:36:26 > 0:36:30Did you have to steel yourself before you did that?
0:36:30 > 0:36:32Well, I wasn't very keen to go.
0:36:34 > 0:36:37I wasn't very keen to go because...
0:36:37 > 0:36:41many of my relatives from Poland had died in Auschwitz.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45Er...
0:36:45 > 0:36:46However...
0:36:46 > 0:36:49the point of the series was that it wasn't an entertainment,
0:36:49 > 0:36:53it was about life the way it... It is, the way it has been.
0:36:55 > 0:36:56Er...
0:36:59 > 0:37:01And we just made up our minds to make it
0:37:01 > 0:37:07as true as, er...as we try to do everything in the series.
0:37:07 > 0:37:08That is...
0:37:09 > 0:37:12I said, "I'll go for one day,
0:37:12 > 0:37:14"and during the morning we'll walk round,
0:37:14 > 0:37:17"and in the afternoon we'll do the one piece
0:37:17 > 0:37:19"by the pond that we know we want to do."
0:37:19 > 0:37:20I had never seen Auschwitz.
0:37:20 > 0:37:24You know, I had practically seen none of those places
0:37:24 > 0:37:26in the...programmes
0:37:26 > 0:37:30for reasons that I'll be happy to tell you about afterwards.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32But Auschwitz I hadn't been to at all.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35And we arrived at this station
0:37:35 > 0:37:41which had been...looked over by the producer in advance,
0:37:41 > 0:37:43so he knew what we should see.
0:37:43 > 0:37:48I went through these terrible wooden and iron gates
0:37:48 > 0:37:54that say "Arbeit macht frei" at the top, "work makes free".
0:37:54 > 0:37:56So these unhappy people who went there
0:37:56 > 0:37:59to their deaths, to the gas ovens...
0:37:59 > 0:38:01I was particularly keen
0:38:01 > 0:38:06to see bunker 12 and 11, where people were, er...
0:38:08 > 0:38:11..beaten and shot for breach of regulations,
0:38:11 > 0:38:14because I sort of felt that you must see it all.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17But it turned out that the things that were far more moving
0:38:17 > 0:38:21were ones that I couldn't have imagined at all.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24The Germans are terribly methodical.
0:38:24 > 0:38:27So there would be whole areas which contained
0:38:27 > 0:38:32nothing but old spectacles that had all been very carefully collected.
0:38:33 > 0:38:35They weren't the slightest use,
0:38:35 > 0:38:38but the Germans weren't going to throw them away.
0:38:38 > 0:38:41There were areas which were entirely full of human hair.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44There was a terrible area
0:38:44 > 0:38:47which was entirely full of wooden legs
0:38:47 > 0:38:51and crutches and artificial limbs.
0:38:51 > 0:38:53And the most pathetic area of all,
0:38:53 > 0:38:56an area which was just full of little tin chamber pots
0:38:56 > 0:38:59that children who had come to the camp had brought with them
0:38:59 > 0:39:01and that the Germans had collected.
0:39:01 > 0:39:05Well, by this time I was in a pretty low frame of mind...
0:39:06 > 0:39:10..and the most awful thing was that there were...
0:39:10 > 0:39:16pictures in the corridors of prisoners...
0:39:19 > 0:39:22..which were just the ordinary picture, you know, front face,
0:39:22 > 0:39:23number on the bottom.
0:39:23 > 0:39:28But many of them were pictures of quite young people, children.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31And to see these pictures of people taken as if they were criminals,
0:39:31 > 0:39:35with the tears streaming down their face, was just unbearable.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39Well, then we drove over to the pond,
0:39:39 > 0:39:43and we had arranged that we were...
0:39:43 > 0:39:46I was just going to say a piece to close that programme at the pond,
0:39:46 > 0:39:49which would arise out of what I'd seen in the morning.
0:39:49 > 0:39:53So I sort of walked up and down for five minutes,
0:39:53 > 0:39:55making up my mind what I was going to say,
0:39:55 > 0:39:59and then...we did it.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01One take and we go home.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04We had made up our minds that it was a piece
0:40:04 > 0:40:07which you couldn't possibly do twice. You just had to say
0:40:07 > 0:40:09- what came into your mind. - Yes.
0:40:09 > 0:40:11And the thing that came into my mind,
0:40:11 > 0:40:14absolutely out of the blue, was the phrase
0:40:14 > 0:40:16from Oliver Cromwell that I quote,
0:40:16 > 0:40:19"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ,
0:40:19 > 0:40:22"think it possible you may be mistaken."
0:40:22 > 0:40:23Mm.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27Do you find that, personally, more harrowing
0:40:27 > 0:40:31than your visit...and more moving on you as a scientist and a human being,
0:40:31 > 0:40:34than visiting, as you did, Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
0:40:42 > 0:40:46Yes. You see, of course...
0:40:47 > 0:40:50..Nagasaki, in which I arrived late one night...
0:40:51 > 0:40:52..was awful.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56But...
0:40:56 > 0:40:58we all knew we could do something about that.
0:40:58 > 0:41:00I mean, there were...
0:41:02 > 0:41:05Every one of us was going to follow his conscience
0:41:05 > 0:41:09in doing something to try and prevent a repetition of Nagasaki.
0:41:13 > 0:41:16My friend William Penney chose his way,
0:41:16 > 0:41:20I chose my way, but each of us was clear
0:41:20 > 0:41:22that there was something human beings could do
0:41:22 > 0:41:26to prevent that kind of war, that kind of use of weapons.
0:41:27 > 0:41:29Our responsibility was brought home to us,
0:41:29 > 0:41:32and as a matter of fact, my responsibility was largely exercised
0:41:32 > 0:41:35in giving the lectures on Science And Human Values
0:41:35 > 0:41:36and having people read them,
0:41:36 > 0:41:38and in fact thereby approaching
0:41:38 > 0:41:41the whole problem of scientific responsibility.
0:41:41 > 0:41:42But Auschwitz was...
0:41:43 > 0:41:45It was just hopeless.
0:41:45 > 0:41:47You know, if a civilised country...
0:41:48 > 0:41:54..could allow that sort of bestiality to become part of its...
0:41:56 > 0:42:01..relation to other human beings, I just felt that...
0:42:02 > 0:42:06..I just felt that the future had fallen in.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09How were you ever going to make people understand that, er...
0:42:17 > 0:42:19..human beings are individual?
0:42:19 > 0:42:20You have to touch them,
0:42:20 > 0:42:24you have to know that every one of those children,
0:42:24 > 0:42:26every one of those chaps with the wooden leg and so on
0:42:26 > 0:42:32were people, and however much they might be, er, your enemies...
0:42:34 > 0:42:37..you couldn't take on yourself that responsibility.
0:42:39 > 0:42:45I find it difficult to find the right words...for that.
0:42:46 > 0:42:50You must see programme 11 and see them, but...
0:42:50 > 0:42:53I want to explain one thing to you.
0:42:53 > 0:42:56See, the most awful thing about Auschwitz was
0:42:56 > 0:43:00that you realised that the people who had been killed in the gas ovens,
0:43:00 > 0:43:03they were just dead. They were the fortunate ones.
0:43:03 > 0:43:08But the people who shoved another lot of people into the gas oven next day,
0:43:08 > 0:43:12they were like characters out of Dante's Inferno,
0:43:12 > 0:43:14living an endless hell,
0:43:14 > 0:43:16because they had lost all sense of human feeling
0:43:16 > 0:43:21and were going to repeat tomorrow the unutterable bestiality
0:43:21 > 0:43:23- that they had practised today. - Yes.
0:43:26 > 0:43:27I... Yes, I see the horror
0:43:27 > 0:43:30and obviously the effect it had on you.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34I can't see myself that it's any more horrible than the man
0:43:34 > 0:43:37who allows the A-bomb to be dropped
0:43:37 > 0:43:41on a defenceless civilian population and kill 60,000 people.
0:43:41 > 0:43:46I mean, I think that, er... one is as great a crime as another,
0:43:46 > 0:43:48and it leads me on to this thing, too,
0:43:48 > 0:43:51about therefore the responsibility of the scientist.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54What happened at Hiroshima and Nagasaki
0:43:54 > 0:43:57was the work of men like yourself.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00And it comes into this area, doesn't it, of moral responsibility?
0:44:00 > 0:44:03Are scientists really interested in human beings,
0:44:03 > 0:44:07or is it just ideas that they're bothered about?
0:44:11 > 0:44:15Er... Do you mind if I take that in two parts?
0:44:15 > 0:44:16You said something at the outset
0:44:16 > 0:44:18which I think is very wise and very true,
0:44:18 > 0:44:20and one should just know.
0:44:20 > 0:44:24I know that it's more sensational in a newspaper
0:44:24 > 0:44:27to say that so-and-so has committed a mass murder,
0:44:27 > 0:44:31slit the throats of ten people, four of them children,
0:44:31 > 0:44:33rather than just say slit the throat of one person.
0:44:33 > 0:44:35But in fact, in my opinion,
0:44:35 > 0:44:39there is no difference between unutterable crimes.
0:44:39 > 0:44:42And the man who killed a single child in Auschwitz
0:44:42 > 0:44:46and the man who killed 80,000 people at Hiroshima...
0:44:48 > 0:44:50..I think those crimes are absolutely on a par.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53We must learn that crime is something to do with
0:44:53 > 0:44:55your relation with a human being.
0:44:55 > 0:44:58When you sit and press that button,
0:44:58 > 0:45:00there should be a person at the end of it,
0:45:00 > 0:45:02and the person should look like your sweetheart.
0:45:02 > 0:45:06And you should say to yourself, "It's her.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09"It's somebody for whom I have all those feelings."
0:45:09 > 0:45:12So I make no distinction between the gravity
0:45:12 > 0:45:16of these crimes. They're enormous.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19Now you ask the question, what about the scientists?
0:45:19 > 0:45:21After all, what about the chaps who actually invented the gas
0:45:21 > 0:45:23that they were using at Auschwitz and so on?
0:45:36 > 0:45:41One is faced at many moments in one's life
0:45:41 > 0:45:45between loyalties which are not compatible.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50One is faced with the question of loyalty
0:45:50 > 0:45:54to one's country as against loyalty to one's religion.
0:45:54 > 0:45:57Think of all the Roman Catholics who were tortured to death
0:45:57 > 0:45:59in the reign of Queen Elizabeth I,
0:45:59 > 0:46:02who were constantly faced by that.
0:46:02 > 0:46:07Spies are faced by questions of loyalty to some faith or the like.
0:46:07 > 0:46:10And during the war, many scientists were faced
0:46:10 > 0:46:13with a very simple and brutal question, which is,
0:46:13 > 0:46:19"Do I feel about the civilisation in which I work
0:46:19 > 0:46:24"strongly enough to do anything to resist the Nazi threat
0:46:24 > 0:46:26"to make a bomb first?"
0:46:26 > 0:46:28And we all felt "yes" about that,
0:46:28 > 0:46:32all of us, and I have no doubt that all of us would do that again.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36We felt quite certain that to allow
0:46:36 > 0:46:39what was then going on in Central Europe...
0:46:41 > 0:46:45..what we had seen films of in Poland and Russia...
0:46:45 > 0:46:48to become normal over the world
0:46:48 > 0:46:50was something which we must resist
0:46:50 > 0:46:53by all the technical means which we possessed,
0:46:53 > 0:46:58that we would be traitors to the intelligence we had been provided for
0:46:58 > 0:47:00to turn round and say to Mr Winston Churchill,
0:47:00 > 0:47:03"I know you want the bomb, but you're a warmonger.
0:47:03 > 0:47:06"I am a peaceful man, I would rather go to jail."
0:47:06 > 0:47:09I think an individual can say that, but I don't think
0:47:09 > 0:47:13that you can blame an individual who says, "No, I can't say that".
0:47:15 > 0:47:18The questions arise about what happens
0:47:18 > 0:47:22at the moment when other people make up their minds to drop the bomb,
0:47:22 > 0:47:25because I don't have to tell you that no scientist was asked
0:47:25 > 0:47:28about dropping the bomb, and those who knew
0:47:28 > 0:47:32it was going to be dropped - Szilard, Wigner,
0:47:32 > 0:47:35the people who signed the Wigner Memorandum -
0:47:35 > 0:47:38they were very much against it.
0:47:38 > 0:47:42They said that dropping the bomb at that stage in the war was a mistake.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44But, you see, they wouldn't have felt that
0:47:44 > 0:47:47if it had been a crucial question
0:47:47 > 0:47:50about dropping it on Berlin at an earlier stage in the war
0:47:50 > 0:47:53if we had been threatened by it. They're terrible dilemmas.
0:47:53 > 0:47:55I mean, that's what morality's about.
0:47:55 > 0:47:57That's what being a human being's about.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01You are faced with questions of value
0:48:01 > 0:48:03to which there are no numerical answers.
0:48:03 > 0:48:06Never think that you can write down an equation
0:48:06 > 0:48:11at the end of which you say in a satisfactory tone of voice,
0:48:11 > 0:48:14"That's fine, I have now proved loyalty to my country is
0:48:14 > 0:48:17"more important than loyalty to the scientific tradition".
0:48:17 > 0:48:20No, no, that's always got to be a personal choice.
0:48:20 > 0:48:23Well, let me put something else to you, then, that's on the same theme,
0:48:23 > 0:48:25which is a quote from the French Nobel Prize winner,
0:48:25 > 0:48:27Professor Jacques Monod.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30And he said, "Supposing someone discovered
0:48:30 > 0:48:32"a foolproof method of finding out whether
0:48:32 > 0:48:37"different races had genetic differences in intelligence.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40"Now, if it was applied and the differences were found,"
0:48:40 > 0:48:42he said, "the results would inevitably be grossly misused."
0:48:42 > 0:48:44Then he asked the question,
0:48:44 > 0:48:48"Should the scientist bury his secret or publish in an obscure journal,
0:48:48 > 0:48:52"hoping that this would delay the news leaking out?"
0:48:52 > 0:48:54Now that's a dilemma, isn't it, in a situation?
0:48:54 > 0:48:56I mean, what would you do in a situation like that?
0:48:56 > 0:48:59It's a very good question. Er...
0:48:59 > 0:49:00HE CHUCKLES
0:49:02 > 0:49:04Jacques Monod is a colleague of mine
0:49:04 > 0:49:06at the Salk Institute, I should explain to you.
0:49:06 > 0:49:09So I'm not saying, no, it's a good question because,
0:49:09 > 0:49:14er...we spend time together.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16It IS a good question.
0:49:18 > 0:49:19I know what I would do.
0:49:21 > 0:49:22I would publish.
0:49:24 > 0:49:27And I must now explain to you why I think this.
0:49:28 > 0:49:31You see, I think we've all got to understand
0:49:31 > 0:49:33that all this talk about
0:49:33 > 0:49:37"black people have a lower IQ than white people"
0:49:37 > 0:49:41or "Jews have a higher IQ than non-Jews..."
0:49:42 > 0:49:45..is all a load of rubbish...
0:49:48 > 0:49:53..because the average IQ of a sample of the population
0:49:53 > 0:49:56is absolutely of no interest.
0:49:58 > 0:50:03In your work, in my work, in everybody's work
0:50:03 > 0:50:06who is listening to us at this moment, they never deal with...
0:50:06 > 0:50:10the average IQ of a million people. They deal with persons.
0:50:11 > 0:50:15Now, think of my picture of the tall European men
0:50:15 > 0:50:17and the little Japanese men.
0:50:17 > 0:50:19Nobody argues about the fact
0:50:19 > 0:50:22that the Japanese are genetically smaller than the whites,
0:50:22 > 0:50:25because fortunately, it's there, it's fixed,
0:50:25 > 0:50:28and nobody thinks that it's terribly important.
0:50:28 > 0:50:30And we must understand the same about the IQ.
0:50:32 > 0:50:35There are these two... mountains of IQ,
0:50:35 > 0:50:38say the blacks here and the whites there.
0:50:38 > 0:50:40We don't know how far apart the means are,
0:50:40 > 0:50:43but they probably are some distance apart.
0:50:43 > 0:50:45After all, there's not the slightest doubt
0:50:45 > 0:50:49that black people have other physical advantages over white people,
0:50:49 > 0:50:52of which they ought, equally, to be proud.
0:50:53 > 0:50:57But the point is that there are millions of black people
0:50:57 > 0:51:01who are cleverer than other millions of white people.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06These mountains that I am picturing,
0:51:06 > 0:51:09that contain one population and another,
0:51:09 > 0:51:12may have their peaks in slightly different places,
0:51:12 > 0:51:15but they overlap in the main,
0:51:15 > 0:51:20so that the world is just as full
0:51:20 > 0:51:22of clever black people and clever yellow people
0:51:22 > 0:51:26and clever red people as it is of clever white people.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29And when Mr Jensen, in his academic way,
0:51:29 > 0:51:32or Mr Shockley in his more downright way,
0:51:32 > 0:51:35says, "We ought to educate them differently,"
0:51:35 > 0:51:37or we ought to do this, that and the other, I think that's just wrong.
0:51:37 > 0:51:41I think we ought to recognise that everybody has a different gift.
0:51:41 > 0:51:43You asked me a very nice question at the beginning -
0:51:43 > 0:51:46when was I aware of my mental gifts?
0:51:46 > 0:51:48I didn't think they were anything special,
0:51:48 > 0:51:51because, I mean, you know, when I was a boy at school,
0:51:51 > 0:51:54I wanted to run the mile in four and a half minutes.
0:51:54 > 0:51:55Well, you know, I stood no more chance
0:51:55 > 0:51:57of running the mile in four and a half minutes
0:51:57 > 0:51:59than in running it in three and a half minutes.
0:51:59 > 0:52:02I wasn't built that way. But I didn't go around saying,
0:52:02 > 0:52:06"You mustn't publish this result - everybody will think I'm a poor chap,
0:52:06 > 0:52:08"I can't run the mile in four and a half minutes."
0:52:08 > 0:52:10And I haven't gone round saying that everybody
0:52:10 > 0:52:13who runs the mile in less than four minutes now
0:52:13 > 0:52:15ought to be put up against a wall and shot.
0:52:15 > 0:52:16Why?!
0:52:16 > 0:52:19People are different, and thank God they are!
0:52:19 > 0:52:23What has made the human race the wonderful thing it is?
0:52:23 > 0:52:28The fact that variety is its spice, its being.
0:52:28 > 0:52:32We are more varied in our accomplishments,
0:52:32 > 0:52:36we are more able to distribute tasks between us
0:52:36 > 0:52:38because you can do one thing better than I,
0:52:38 > 0:52:39and I can do another thing.
0:52:39 > 0:52:42And instead of our cutting our heads open
0:52:42 > 0:52:44with battle-axes in order to demonstrate this -
0:52:44 > 0:52:48a contest which I should inevitably lose - I'm most anxious
0:52:48 > 0:52:50to say to you in a peaceful way,
0:52:50 > 0:52:53like I would be anxious to say to President Sadat,
0:52:53 > 0:52:58"Look, chum, let's just get on with the business of living
0:52:58 > 0:53:01"and contributing our different gifts".
0:53:01 > 0:53:05And IQ is just like any other,
0:53:05 > 0:53:08like musical ability or chess or any other.
0:53:08 > 0:53:11Mm. What is the main problem, Doctor,
0:53:11 > 0:53:13as you look then, today, look around you?
0:53:13 > 0:53:16What's the main problem in the world, facing the world, today?
0:53:24 > 0:53:28I think that the main problem is of our making.
0:53:30 > 0:53:31In the...
0:53:35 > 0:53:37..50-odd years since I came to this country...
0:53:40 > 0:53:47..we have widened the intellectual interests and aspirations of people,
0:53:47 > 0:53:50oh, a thousandfold.
0:53:50 > 0:53:51We have invented...
0:53:54 > 0:53:59..television programmes like this. We have invented the paperback.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01MICHAEL LAUGHS Well?
0:54:01 > 0:54:04I know that some of the pictures, obviously,
0:54:04 > 0:54:06are not very revealing about the content.
0:54:06 > 0:54:07LAUGHTER
0:54:07 > 0:54:09But, you know, if you can't sell Plato
0:54:09 > 0:54:11without a naked girl on the cover,
0:54:11 > 0:54:14good luck, so far as I'm concerned.
0:54:14 > 0:54:16Plato and I would be of one mind.
0:54:16 > 0:54:20My only objection is that I shall have to be dead a long time
0:54:20 > 0:54:23before I rival Plato,
0:54:23 > 0:54:26because I'm still in copyright and he's out of copyright.
0:54:26 > 0:54:27LAUGHTER
0:54:28 > 0:54:33We have invented an ability...
0:54:33 > 0:54:37for people in all countries, but in Western countries in particular...
0:54:39 > 0:54:43..to share not just wealth
0:54:43 > 0:54:45but the intellectual wealth.
0:54:46 > 0:54:49Er...
0:54:49 > 0:54:54You know, 50 years ago, what organisation in the world
0:54:54 > 0:54:55would have put up that money
0:54:55 > 0:54:58to put out my programmes on The Ascent Of Man?
0:55:01 > 0:55:03What organisation would have put all that money
0:55:03 > 0:55:06into printing that beautiful book?
0:55:06 > 0:55:10And I would never have spent my time breaking my heart
0:55:10 > 0:55:14to make sure the book was, you know, as gorgeous as it could be,
0:55:14 > 0:55:17because I'm as anxious to get these things into people's hands
0:55:17 > 0:55:20as they are to have them.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23Well, that's gone very fast in the last 50 years,
0:55:23 > 0:55:25and we haven't nearly caught up with it.
0:55:25 > 0:55:29Er, we still have far too few people
0:55:29 > 0:55:33to bring these gifts to others.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36We still don't know how to satisfy
0:55:36 > 0:55:39the leisure aspirations of most people.
0:55:39 > 0:55:43Above all, we don't know how to provide enough jobs
0:55:43 > 0:55:46which are fundamentally interesting in themselves.
0:55:46 > 0:55:49Mm. And are there too many of us, as well, would you say?
0:55:49 > 0:55:51Is that another problem?
0:55:56 > 0:55:59You see, I don't believe in problems
0:55:59 > 0:56:01which are always other people's problems.
0:56:01 > 0:56:04I have four children. They are all daughters,
0:56:04 > 0:56:09so they add to the natural reproduction rate rather a lot.
0:56:09 > 0:56:14And I just would think it impertinent to say to any person in the world,
0:56:14 > 0:56:16black, white, yellow...
0:56:19 > 0:56:22.."It's OK for me to have four kids, but you mustn't."
0:56:22 > 0:56:24So I don't think there are too many of us.
0:56:24 > 0:56:27I think that these things have to adjust themselves,
0:56:27 > 0:56:32as people find what they prefer to children, and it is doing so.
0:56:32 > 0:56:34So I don't think there are too many of us.
0:56:34 > 0:56:37No, I think that what we haven't solved is
0:56:37 > 0:56:39the problem to which I come back,
0:56:39 > 0:56:42of giving people very satisfying jobs...
0:56:42 > 0:56:43Mm.
0:56:43 > 0:56:46..the things that the hippies tried to do but failed
0:56:46 > 0:56:48and the things at which, you know,
0:56:48 > 0:56:52the few privileged of us, like you and me, are so good.
0:56:52 > 0:56:55I just think that I've had the most wonderful life in the world,
0:56:55 > 0:56:57because, like every scientist,
0:56:57 > 0:57:02I share with prostitutes the only really satisfying job.
0:57:02 > 0:57:05I'm actually paid to do what I like doing.
0:57:05 > 0:57:07LAUGHTER
0:57:07 > 0:57:09APPLAUSE
0:57:13 > 0:57:16I doubt if many prostitutes would agree with that! I mean...
0:57:16 > 0:57:18APPLAUSE
0:57:20 > 0:57:26There are some subjects on which I cede specialisation to you, I admit.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE
0:57:32 > 0:57:36- Get out of that, as they say. - I'm sorry,
0:57:36 > 0:57:38- that was... - No, no, no.
0:57:38 > 0:57:41I like a bit of knock-about now and again.
0:57:41 > 0:57:44Can we, finally, for the last few minutes we've got,
0:57:44 > 0:57:46just look towards the world of the future?
0:57:46 > 0:57:49Because in reading through all about you,
0:57:49 > 0:57:53you've speculated very interestingly in certain areas.
0:57:53 > 0:57:55For instance, you...
0:57:55 > 0:57:58And I'd like to sort of explain how this would happen.
0:57:58 > 0:58:01There was one article I read by you where you said it's conceivable
0:58:01 > 0:58:05that in the future we will be able to select the sex of a child.
0:58:06 > 0:58:08A couple will be able to select...
0:58:08 > 0:58:12How exactly would that happen, Doctor?
0:58:14 > 0:58:20Well, it's clear that the sex...
0:58:20 > 0:58:23of a fertilised ovum...
0:58:23 > 0:58:25is determined very early,
0:58:25 > 0:58:29because the sperm that has entered the ovum
0:58:29 > 0:58:33carries either a Y chromosome
0:58:33 > 0:58:35or an X chromosome
0:58:35 > 0:58:39to couple with the X chromosome in the egg.
0:58:39 > 0:58:43And if it carries a Y chromosome,
0:58:43 > 0:58:47then the fertilised egg will make a male.
0:58:47 > 0:58:49Right.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53Er...
0:58:53 > 0:58:56Now, two things may be possible.
0:58:56 > 0:59:01It may be possible to determine which it is quite early,
0:59:01 > 0:59:03by chemical or other tests.
0:59:03 > 0:59:07And then, if you wish to abort quite early on,
0:59:07 > 0:59:10probably within the second month,
0:59:10 > 0:59:13a child of the wrong sex...
0:59:13 > 0:59:15You can see the moral problem,
0:59:15 > 0:59:19that, if I were to be presented with a prophecy that my fifth baby
0:59:19 > 0:59:22was to be a daughter, what would I do?
0:59:22 > 0:59:25But it may also be possible to do something quite different.
0:59:25 > 0:59:28It may be possible to take sperm...
0:59:30 > 0:59:32..and to sort it in such a way that,
0:59:32 > 0:59:34although you can't be certain
0:59:34 > 0:59:37that you've now got one bag carrying X chromosomes
0:59:37 > 0:59:39and one bag carrying Y chromosomes,
0:59:39 > 0:59:42that the percentage of Xs is much higher in one
0:59:42 > 0:59:45and the percentage of Ys is much higher in the other,
0:59:45 > 0:59:49so that if you used that for artificial insemination,
0:59:49 > 0:59:52then you would get a much higher chance of one or the other sex.
0:59:52 > 0:59:54Now, this, of course, is into the future,
0:59:54 > 0:59:58and of course it begs the final question to you, really,
0:59:58 > 1:00:01about, what is your idea of Utopia?
1:00:01 > 1:00:05You look ahead, what's the ideal for you?
1:00:05 > 1:00:11I have no idea that is different
1:00:11 > 1:00:13from the one that I put forward before,
1:00:13 > 1:00:16when I made that joke about...
1:00:16 > 1:00:19those of us who did jobs that we liked.
1:00:19 > 1:00:23Er...I am convinced that human beings
1:00:23 > 1:00:27take pleasure in work, not in idleness.
1:00:27 > 1:00:31I am convinced that when people are accused of idleness,
1:00:31 > 1:00:34it just means that they are being accused
1:00:34 > 1:00:38of hating the humdrum job that doesn't tax them
1:00:38 > 1:00:40that they've been put into.
1:00:40 > 1:00:45So I am convinced that the ideal world for every human being
1:00:45 > 1:00:50is one in which he or she does a job that they...
1:00:51 > 1:00:54..are good at, like doing, that gives them satisfaction.
1:00:54 > 1:00:57- That's my Utopia. - Mm. I started...
1:00:57 > 1:01:00APPLAUSE
1:01:03 > 1:01:06I started off, actually, by asking the question,
1:01:06 > 1:01:08are people frightened of talking to you?
1:01:08 > 1:01:10Could I be cheeky and ask you a question now?
1:01:10 > 1:01:12Should we take notice of anything that you say?
1:01:12 > 1:01:14LAUGHTER
1:01:14 > 1:01:17Do you see what I mean? This sort of thing that people think...
1:01:17 > 1:01:21It's true, there you are, the man with an opinion on everything,
1:01:21 > 1:01:24a sort of oracle. How...
1:01:24 > 1:01:27It's a difficult question, I know, but how accurate...
1:01:27 > 1:01:32In fact, what's your function as that kind of person, as the oracle?
1:01:32 > 1:01:34Should we really believe you,
1:01:34 > 1:01:36or should we just sort of be sceptical or...
1:01:36 > 1:01:39should we just think about what you've said?
1:01:39 > 1:01:41That's a very good question.
1:01:41 > 1:01:43LAUGHTER
1:01:43 > 1:01:45That's the second one I've asked in an hour.
1:01:45 > 1:01:46LAUGHTER
1:01:46 > 1:01:48DR BRONOWSKI LAUGHS
1:01:48 > 1:01:50No, it's a particularly good question
1:01:50 > 1:01:53because it pays me out for that nasty remark I made.
1:01:55 > 1:02:00But it's really a question I'm happy to have,
1:02:00 > 1:02:01and it's for this reason.
1:02:08 > 1:02:11You see, I'm not an oracle,
1:02:11 > 1:02:13and although people liked me on The Brains Trust,
1:02:13 > 1:02:15I often ask myself why.
1:02:15 > 1:02:19And I'm naturally impressed at the attention
1:02:19 > 1:02:22with which people have listened to me today.
1:02:23 > 1:02:27I'm terribly impressed with the attention with which
1:02:27 > 1:02:29you have listened to me.
1:02:29 > 1:02:32You're not losing your place among the questions now and again,
1:02:32 > 1:02:35which, you know, is a great piece of homage to me.
1:02:37 > 1:02:38Why?
1:02:41 > 1:02:46It's because I have been fortunate enough, by birth and education,
1:02:46 > 1:02:50and particularly by being thrust into many strange environments,
1:02:50 > 1:02:54to have had to shape a view of life
1:02:54 > 1:02:57which is very tightly knit.
1:02:57 > 1:03:01If you ask me a question about birth control
1:03:01 > 1:03:06or a question about intelligence of black people,
1:03:06 > 1:03:07or a question about...
1:03:10 > 1:03:12..Utopia...
1:03:14 > 1:03:17..there are not three clever men answering.
1:03:17 > 1:03:21There is one man who is speaking from
1:03:21 > 1:03:26a deep sense of inner conviction of what life is about.
1:03:26 > 1:03:29That's what I think life is about.
1:03:32 > 1:03:33My life has been happy...
1:03:41 > 1:03:44..because, although I have suffered many conflicts of loyalty,
1:03:44 > 1:03:46of which I spoke to you earlier,
1:03:46 > 1:03:50I've never had any uncertainty about...
1:03:52 > 1:03:54..the meaning of the word "good",
1:03:54 > 1:03:56the meaning of the word "true",
1:03:56 > 1:03:58the meaning of the word "beautiful"
1:03:58 > 1:04:01and the meaning of the words like "original", "new",
1:04:01 > 1:04:03what ought we to be doing.
1:04:03 > 1:04:07I've always had a tremendous pride in being a human being
1:04:07 > 1:04:09and being born into the 20th century.
1:04:09 > 1:04:11I'm terribly sad that, you know,
1:04:11 > 1:04:1430 years from now I shall be dead, because...
1:04:16 > 1:04:19..not because anybody will miss me, but because I will miss them...
1:04:21 > 1:04:25..because so many more marvellous things will be known.
1:04:25 > 1:04:27Now, should you listen to me?
1:04:27 > 1:04:29Yes.
1:04:29 > 1:04:30Yes, you should.
1:04:30 > 1:04:33Not because you have to believe any single thing that I say,
1:04:33 > 1:04:35but because you have to...
1:04:38 > 1:04:43..be pleased that there are people who have led
1:04:43 > 1:04:47happy and complete lives, who feel that they can speak
1:04:47 > 1:04:53out of a full heart and a full mind all in the same breath.
1:04:53 > 1:04:56I take it as a privilege rather than a pleasure, Dr Bronowski.
1:04:56 > 1:04:57Thank you very much indeed.
1:04:57 > 1:04:59APPLAUSE