0:00:30 > 0:00:33APPLAUSE
0:00:48 > 0:00:55Evening. Welcome. Muhammad Ali was the most singular human being I ever met. No contest.
0:00:55 > 0:00:59A great athlete, part-time comedian, sometime poet,
0:00:59 > 0:01:04he made a robust contribution to relations between black and white.
0:01:04 > 0:01:10Between 1971 and '81, I interviewed him four times - I've got the scars.
0:01:10 > 0:01:14Tonight, we present a portrait of a truly remarkable man,
0:01:14 > 0:01:18and we'll also, sadly, chart his decline.
0:01:18 > 0:01:24I first interviewed Ali in 1971. He was in his prime and he was something else.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28One of the undeniable things about you, Muhammad,
0:01:28 > 0:01:31is this gift, this flair, for publicity.
0:01:31 > 0:01:36You attract it. Now have you always had this gift, going back?
0:01:36 > 0:01:41No... I was training for a fella named Duke Sabedeng, a Hawaiian.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44A giant - he was six feet eight inches tall.
0:01:44 > 0:01:50I was due to fight him and I was on a TV show, something like this,
0:01:50 > 0:01:55and Gorgeous George, a famous American wrestler who's deceased now,
0:01:55 > 0:02:00he was talking before myself and I came on after him.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03When he was interviewed, he was saying,
0:02:03 > 0:02:06"I am the prettiest wrestler.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09"Look at my beautiful blond hair.
0:02:09 > 0:02:13"If that bum messes my hair up, I'll annihilate him."
0:02:13 > 0:02:18"What if you lose?" "If I lose, I'm catching the next jet to Russia!
0:02:18 > 0:02:23"I want everyone to know, if I lose..." He just got mad.
0:02:23 > 0:02:27He said, "I'm sick and tired!" and he ran off the show.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30I was nervous. Boy, he talked a lot.
0:02:30 > 0:02:34I had to go to see. Would he win or lose?
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Many people were there for various reasons.
0:02:37 > 0:02:44Gorgeous George came out. Two beautiful girls carried his robe so it wouldn't get dirty.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47Real conceited and arrogant.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50LAUGHTER
0:02:50 > 0:02:52One fella... APPLAUSE
0:02:52 > 0:02:58And I was there in astonishment. 21 years old. Nobody knew me.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01Olympic champ, but I hadn't started talking yet.
0:03:01 > 0:03:06I looked at him and said, "Boy, he needs a good whuping!"
0:03:06 > 0:03:12I wanted the other man to whup him! And he reached out for a keg of beer,
0:03:12 > 0:03:16and he threw it in this man's face, and he messed the man's suit up.
0:03:16 > 0:03:21Later I found out this fella worked for the show but people didn't know.
0:03:21 > 0:03:26He had a lady with him but he got to arguing. "You need a killing!"
0:03:26 > 0:03:32He threw the beer on him and then he got up in his opponent's corner,
0:03:32 > 0:03:35and he took some deodorant and sprayed it.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38Sprayed the fella's corner!
0:03:38 > 0:03:42And he was throwing out at people and making bad gestures.
0:03:42 > 0:03:47Then he won the first fall, lost the second fall and won the third one.
0:03:47 > 0:03:52And when I saw all those people come to see him get beat,
0:03:52 > 0:03:56and they all paid to get in - that's the thing!
0:03:57 > 0:04:00And I said, "This is a good idea."
0:04:00 > 0:04:05So I started talking. "I am the greatest. I am beautiful.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08"If you talk jive, you'll fall in five!"
0:04:08 > 0:04:13In America, they got an old saying - "The nigger talks too much."
0:04:13 > 0:04:16APPLAUSE
0:04:23 > 0:04:28- Were you in a gang in those days? - No, I didn't run with a gang.
0:04:28 > 0:04:33They had a few little street gangs and people hanging around.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36They were shooting dice, playing marbles.
0:04:36 > 0:04:40But I was so wrapped up in boxing, since I was 12,
0:04:40 > 0:04:43I'd go to the gym every day after school.
0:04:43 > 0:04:48I would run, looking forward to the future Golden Glove, the Olympics.
0:04:48 > 0:04:52I had something to do, which most kids need.
0:04:52 > 0:04:56A goal or purpose - it keeps them out of trouble.
0:04:56 > 0:05:02I'm lucky that at 12, I had a good boxing talent. I was good for my age.
0:05:02 > 0:05:07We had a TV show called Tomorrow's Champion in Louisville, Kentucky.
0:05:07 > 0:05:12Each Saturday there were three bouts and I had 45 fights on this show.
0:05:12 > 0:05:17I was so busy that I didn't have time to run in street gangs.
0:05:17 > 0:05:23In your teens, did you ever imagine yourself as world champion?
0:05:23 > 0:05:28It happened one night when I heard Rocky Marciano, in 1954 or sometime.
0:05:28 > 0:05:34In the rain, I was on my bicycle, leaning to listen to a fella's radio.
0:05:34 > 0:05:37And I got there too late.
0:05:37 > 0:05:42I heard, "Still heavyweight champion of the world, Rocky Marciano!"
0:05:42 > 0:05:49And a little skinny kid in Kentucky of about... I don't know how many stones it is, but 85 pounds.
0:05:49 > 0:05:54I just rode off on my bicycle and I could hear the man saying -
0:05:54 > 0:05:57at that time I was Cassius Clay -
0:05:57 > 0:06:02"And still the heavyweight champion of the whole world - Cassius Clay."
0:06:02 > 0:06:08As I rode off in the rain, I said, "The champion of the whole world!
0:06:08 > 0:06:12"I can whup every man in Russia, in America, in China,
0:06:12 > 0:06:18"every man in Japan, Europe, America. The champion of the whole world!"
0:06:18 > 0:06:20It sounded big then.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23So I kept working until I did it.
0:06:26 > 0:06:31Not only champion of the world, but better than all those before me.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35APPLAUSE
0:06:39 > 0:06:42I'm not going to argue.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44You're not as dumb as you look.
0:06:50 > 0:06:53Can I turn the conversation a bit?
0:06:53 > 0:06:58Now, you're as much a political figure as you are an athlete.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02I don't call myself a political... I'm seeking to be.
0:07:02 > 0:07:07You're a leading member in a power struggle between black and white.
0:07:07 > 0:07:11When were you first aware, as a child,
0:07:11 > 0:07:17- of the differences between... - Let's get things straight. I'm not involved in a power struggle.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21I'm not trying to get power over whites.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24I'm involved in a freedom struggle.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27Power struggle means I wanna do you -
0:07:27 > 0:07:31not you but the white American, like they've done us.
0:07:31 > 0:07:36We don't want power to rule nobody. We just try to escape the evil rule.
0:07:38 > 0:07:42When did you... When was your first recollection, as a child,
0:07:42 > 0:07:45of being a second-class citizen?
0:07:45 > 0:07:49Second-class? No... Sixteenth-class.
0:07:49 > 0:07:55I used to say to my mother, "How come we're second-class citizens?
0:07:55 > 0:08:00"The Africans go where I can't go, the Chinese go where I can't go.
0:08:00 > 0:08:06"The Englishman can come to America and do things that I can't do.
0:08:06 > 0:08:11"The Puerto Rican, the Hawaiian - everybody comes before black people.
0:08:11 > 0:08:15"If we were second-class citizens, we'd be doing all right."
0:08:15 > 0:08:19But we were way down from second.
0:08:19 > 0:08:24If we were second-class citizens, we'd drive Cadillacs, live good.
0:08:24 > 0:08:29First-class would be driving a Rolls Royce. No, we're way under that.
0:08:29 > 0:08:33Things are getting better but I wondered when I went to church...
0:08:33 > 0:08:38I'm not just a boxer - I do a lot of reading, I study, I ask questions.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41I watch how people live and learn.
0:08:41 > 0:08:46And I asked my mother, "How come is everything white?
0:08:46 > 0:08:49"Why is Jesus white, with blue eyes?
0:08:49 > 0:08:54"Why is the Lord's Supper all white men, the angels white, the Pope?
0:08:54 > 0:08:57"Mary, everything, even the angels.
0:08:57 > 0:09:02I said, "Mama, do we go to heaven?" She said, "Naturally, we do."
0:09:02 > 0:09:06And I said, "What happened to all the black angels when they took the pictures?"
0:09:13 > 0:09:17I said, "Oh, I know. If the white folks was in heaven too,
0:09:17 > 0:09:22"then the black angels were in the kitchen preparing milk and honey."
0:09:22 > 0:09:27But I was curious and I wondered why I had to die to go to heaven.
0:09:27 > 0:09:31Why I couldn't have cars, money and nice homes now.
0:09:31 > 0:09:34Why do I have to wait till I die?
0:09:34 > 0:09:38I said, "Mama, I don't want milk and honey, I like steaks!
0:09:38 > 0:09:41"Milk and honey's a laxative anyway!
0:09:41 > 0:09:44"Are there many bathrooms in heaven?"
0:09:44 > 0:09:47I was always curious, wondered why.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51Tarzan is king of the jungle in Africa - he was white.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54LAUGHTER
0:09:54 > 0:09:59I saw this white man swinging with a diaper on in Africa and howling,
0:09:59 > 0:10:03- "Aaaahh!" Do you all see Tarzan over here?- Right.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07And he's beating the Africans up, breaking the lion's jaw.
0:10:07 > 0:10:12Tarzan talks to the animals and the Africans have been there centuries.
0:10:12 > 0:10:16But only he can talk to the animals!
0:10:16 > 0:10:19Why was Miss America always white?
0:10:19 > 0:10:23With all the beautiful brown people, beautiful shapes...
0:10:23 > 0:10:29But she always was white. Miss World was white, Miss Universe was white.
0:10:29 > 0:10:34Then there's White House cigars, White Swan soap, King White soap,
0:10:34 > 0:10:39White Cloud tissue paper, White Tornado floor wax. Everything white.
0:10:39 > 0:10:44And the angel cake was a white cake and the devil's cake was chocolate!
0:10:44 > 0:10:47I said, "Mama, why is everything white?"
0:10:47 > 0:10:52I always wondered, you know? And the President lived in the White House!
0:10:54 > 0:11:00And Mary's lamb had white feet, Snow White, Santa Claus was white.
0:11:00 > 0:11:04And everything bad was black - the ugly duckling...
0:11:04 > 0:11:09The black cat was bad luck. If I threaten you, I blackmail you!
0:11:10 > 0:11:15I said, "Mama, why not call it whitemail? They lie too!"
0:11:15 > 0:11:18I was always curious and then...
0:11:18 > 0:11:22This is when I knew something was wrong.
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Won the Olympic gold in Rome, Italy.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29Olympic champion. Russian here and the Pole right here.
0:11:29 > 0:11:35- Is Poland communist?- Yeah.- Yeah, I'm defeating the so-called enemy.
0:11:35 > 0:11:40And the flag is going, da da-da da da da...
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Da da-da da da...
0:11:43 > 0:11:48And I'm standing there so proud. Da da-da da da da...
0:11:48 > 0:11:52I'd done whup the world for America! Da da da-da da da da.
0:11:52 > 0:11:58I took my gold medal and thought, "I'm gonna get my people freedom now.
0:11:58 > 0:12:02"I'm Olympic champion. I can eat downtown now."
0:12:02 > 0:12:06I had my medal and I went in a restaurant.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09At the time, black folks couldn't eat downtown.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12I went downtown, sat down and said,
0:12:12 > 0:12:15"A cup of coffee, a hot dog."
0:12:15 > 0:12:18Lady said, "We don't serve Negroes."
0:12:18 > 0:12:23I said, "I don't eat them either! Just give me a cup of coffee!"
0:12:23 > 0:12:27LOUD APPLAUSE
0:12:32 > 0:12:35I said, "I'm the Olympic gold medal!
0:12:35 > 0:12:39"I fought for this country and I'm gonna eat!"
0:12:39 > 0:12:44And then I heard the manager say, "Well, he's gotta go out."
0:12:44 > 0:12:48Anyway, they put me out. I had to leave. In my home town,
0:12:48 > 0:12:53where I went to church and Daddy fought in all the wars.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58And I said, "Something's wrong." From then on, I've been a Muslim.
0:12:58 > 0:13:05- What attracted you to...- The truth. The teachings of Elijah Muhammad and how black people got brainwashed.
0:13:05 > 0:13:10Taught to love white, hate black. How we were robbed of our names.
0:13:10 > 0:13:16Robbed of our culture and history, it left us a walking dead man.
0:13:16 > 0:13:21Black people in a white country and they don't know about themselves.
0:13:21 > 0:13:26They're just mentally dead. And this is happening all over the world.
0:13:26 > 0:13:31The first place that we will rise will be the black people of America.
0:13:31 > 0:13:36I heard the truth, and when I heard that my name was not Cassius Clay,
0:13:36 > 0:13:40like a black guy named John Hawkins.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43You know, the slave trader from England.
0:13:43 > 0:13:50But the white people, if one had five slaves and his name was Jones, they'd be called Jones' property.
0:13:50 > 0:13:56If you were auctioned to Mr Smith, you'd be Smith - identifying you as property.
0:13:56 > 0:14:02Now I'm free, no longer a slave, I want the name of my ancestors - Muhammad Ali.
0:14:02 > 0:14:06How would a Chinese man look named Robert Smith?
0:14:09 > 0:14:13How would a German look named Edward Goldberg?
0:14:13 > 0:14:15A Jewish name.
0:14:15 > 0:14:20When I heard we don't have our names, we don't speak our Arabic language,
0:14:20 > 0:14:25we were robbed of Islam and made deaf, dumb and blind in slavery...
0:14:25 > 0:14:29Mohammed was taught by Allah, our God,
0:14:29 > 0:14:31to teach us the truth to free us.
0:14:31 > 0:14:37And I've been free ever since - I have no racial problems.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40I'm proud... And Islam did it.
0:14:40 > 0:14:46In church, I knew something was wrong, but I couldn't pinpoint it.
0:14:46 > 0:14:51When I heard the truth that Mohammed teaches, it made me accept it.
0:14:51 > 0:14:57Elijah Muhammad said that white men are devils. You don't believe that?
0:14:57 > 0:15:00I believe everything he preach.
0:15:00 > 0:15:05You think I'd go on TV and say I don't - I'm his number one follower.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10If the white man ain't the devil... He's aiming at American history.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13He never said Sweden or Canada. AMERICA.
0:15:13 > 0:15:18If you can prove he's not the devil, get on the TV and call him a liar!
0:15:18 > 0:15:22No white man says he's not a devil. They don't say nothing.
0:15:22 > 0:15:28Are you saying every white man in America is a devil? John F Kennedy?
0:15:28 > 0:15:33- Who am I to say?- Was he?- Who am I to say? I'm not Elijah Muhammad.
0:15:33 > 0:15:40I've heard Elijah say this - there's white men who mean right in their hearts, but so few.
0:15:40 > 0:15:45If 10,000 rattlesnakes came down and I had a door I could shut.
0:15:45 > 0:15:51And 1,000 of them meant right. They wouldn't bite me, they were good.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56Should I let them down, hoping the 1,000 get together and shield me?
0:15:56 > 0:16:01Or should I just close the door and stay safe?
0:16:01 > 0:16:05- I think...- The Viet Cong aren't all bad but America bombs them.
0:16:05 > 0:16:10In Hiroshima, in Korea, they weren't bad but they still dropped the bomb.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15So I forget 400 years of lynching and killing, depriving my people
0:16:15 > 0:16:18of freedom and justice and equality?
0:16:18 > 0:16:21So I see three white people doing right,
0:16:21 > 0:16:25and don't see the other million trying to kill me?!
0:16:25 > 0:16:28I'm not that big of a fool.
0:16:28 > 0:16:35I believe everything he teach and if white people are not the devil, they should prove it.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38APPLAUSE
0:16:39 > 0:16:41That was our first encounter.
0:16:41 > 0:16:44In 1974, I interviewed Ali twice.
0:16:44 > 0:16:49I went to New York, where, along with the American host Dick Cavett,
0:16:49 > 0:16:52I interviewed Ali with Joe Frazier.
0:16:52 > 0:16:57Frazier and Ali were to fight an epic battle, which Ali won.
0:16:57 > 0:17:04A year later, he was World Champion and I interviewed him again. I lost - well, it felt like it!
0:17:04 > 0:17:08Whatever happened, both encounters provided evidence
0:17:08 > 0:17:12of Ali's ability to create a circus out of an interview.
0:17:12 > 0:17:19- Why do you insult each other? You insult everybody you fight. - What's the point of insults?!
0:17:19 > 0:17:22The Garden is sold out, that's why!
0:17:31 > 0:17:35I thought you had more intelligence.
0:17:35 > 0:17:38This is a big man in London.
0:17:38 > 0:17:41You don't know him. Johnny Carson ain't big in London.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44Dick Cavett ain't nothing in London.
0:17:44 > 0:17:49Look, in London, this is Johnny Carson. Every night, Mike Parkinson.
0:17:49 > 0:17:54- I was on his show. How many times did you run it?- Four times.
0:17:54 > 0:17:59They ran the same show on religion, race, drought, boxing.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04- They ran that show four times.- They had to so people could understand!
0:18:04 > 0:18:09- And you seemed... You seemed... - Help me.- Listen, you seemed...
0:18:09 > 0:18:12You seemed so intelligent that night.
0:18:12 > 0:18:17- Why ask a question like that?- I'll sue you for that crack about Carson.
0:18:17 > 0:18:24- What crack?- About me being... - You're the man over there that everybody knows, right?
0:18:24 > 0:18:28- What happens if you lose? - Next question.
0:18:28 > 0:18:31- If I lose?- Yeah.
0:18:31 > 0:18:36- I'd catch a jet to the closest communist country.- What?- Communist!
0:18:36 > 0:18:39- Get outta here!- Really? Why?
0:18:39 > 0:18:44To lose to Joe Frazier after all this talking and acting and names?
0:18:44 > 0:18:49- You'd go behind the Iron Curtain? - I ain't gonna lose.
0:18:49 > 0:18:55I'm not worried about losing. I haven't made preparations for it.
0:18:55 > 0:19:00I'm down to 210. I'm moving like I should move, I'm no longer playing.
0:19:00 > 0:19:05This man comes in, anybody can hit him, his sparring partners ram him,
0:19:05 > 0:19:10and they're nothing to me - no class, no footwork, no speed.
0:19:10 > 0:19:14When I get those gloves on and get serious...
0:19:14 > 0:19:18- What you gonna put on me?- All these hooks.- What gloves am I gonna have?
0:19:18 > 0:19:22- Nobody stops me... - What kind of gloves?
0:19:22 > 0:19:26- What kind of gloves? - Same gloves as last time.
0:19:26 > 0:19:30- Sledgehammer or something? - That sounds silly.
0:19:30 > 0:19:34Everybody knows he's gonna have gloves like me.
0:19:34 > 0:19:39"What am I gonna have?" You're gonna have gloves like me!
0:19:39 > 0:19:43- We always do.- All right, then.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45CHEERING AND SHOUTING
0:19:45 > 0:19:49Now, now, guys. You could get hurt.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53You'll hurt your hand.
0:19:53 > 0:19:56You could hurt yourself.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59- Get in there, Michael!- You get in!
0:19:59 > 0:20:02They're coming very close, Michael!
0:20:11 > 0:20:15Don't back out! Put your coat on! Don't back down!
0:20:15 > 0:20:20- You could hit him accidentally. - What do you think I'm trying to do?
0:20:20 > 0:20:24- Anything you like.- Trying to hit me.
0:20:24 > 0:20:27I can't wait! I can't wait! I can't wait!
0:20:27 > 0:20:31- I want you so bad. - You'd better sit down.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33You want me so bad?!
0:20:33 > 0:20:37Boy, you're gonna be in trouble!
0:20:37 > 0:20:40I'd love to see you fight but, er...
0:20:40 > 0:20:45- Your trainer's fainted. You could hurt a finger.- I'm not driving.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48It'll take you six rounds to get me?
0:20:48 > 0:20:51So you're admitting I'll win the first five?
0:20:51 > 0:20:56- Well, then you've gotta win the next six! Where you going?- Good night.
0:20:56 > 0:21:02- You can't leave.- Get him back here. - We can't leave yet, it's not right.
0:21:05 > 0:21:11- Don't be walking off the show. - Are they kidding, boys and girls?
0:21:11 > 0:21:16You win a lot of fights outside the ring. You psyche people out.
0:21:16 > 0:21:21You don't really psyche them out. You really make them fight hard.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26It don't put fear in them. That's the thing - they fight too hard.
0:21:26 > 0:21:29It makes them anxious, like George.
0:21:29 > 0:21:34I said, "OK, sucker. Take your best shot," and stood there.
0:21:34 > 0:21:39"Come on! Show me something! You're just a girl. Look at you.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42"You ain't got nothing. Come on, sucker!
0:21:42 > 0:21:45"Show me something, sucker!"
0:21:45 > 0:21:50And... If you think I'm not telling the truth, watch the films.
0:21:50 > 0:21:55I talked him to death and made him so angry, he just beat hisself out.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58He was so tired, he was falling on the ropes.
0:21:58 > 0:22:03I said, "Man, this is the wrong place to get tired!
0:22:03 > 0:22:05"You are in trouble!
0:22:05 > 0:22:10"Your hands can't hit what your eyes can't see!"
0:22:10 > 0:22:14I'd tell him this when we got in clinches.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18- It worries a man to beat him and talk to him.- Do they talk back?- No.
0:22:18 > 0:22:21Only Joe Frazier.
0:22:21 > 0:22:26I hit Joe with about 90 punches in the first fight, with everything.
0:22:26 > 0:22:30He wouldn't fall and I said, "Are you crazy?!"
0:22:30 > 0:22:34And he said, "Yessir, I'm crazy, just keep 'em coming."
0:22:43 > 0:22:48And I laughed. The biggest fight in history and I was in tickles.
0:22:48 > 0:22:53I said, "You've got to be crazy!" And he said, "Yeah, I'm crazy."
0:22:53 > 0:22:58I often wonder how much - I've seen you do this to Frazier -
0:22:58 > 0:23:02I wonder how much you mean it. You've called Frazier all sorts.
0:23:02 > 0:23:08- Dumb nigger or...- I didn't say that. - Something like that.- YOU said that.
0:23:08 > 0:23:11- Something like that. - You call me a nigger?
0:23:15 > 0:23:17No, I said that...
0:23:20 > 0:23:24- So you're calling...- I didn't call you a dumb nigger, no!
0:23:24 > 0:23:26No, you... You call...
0:23:26 > 0:23:32- You said Uncle Tom.- Yeah.- You said he was stupid.- I said ignorant.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35- Ignorant. All right. - He is.- Same thing.
0:23:35 > 0:23:39- You called Foreman "The Mummy". - He was.
0:23:39 > 0:23:44Now do you really mean that? I don't think you do, you see.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48Naturally he wasn't a mummy. But he moves like one.
0:23:48 > 0:23:51George Foreman - the way he fights.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00APPLAUSE
0:24:02 > 0:24:06By the way, I said, "I can't see no mummy whuping me."
0:24:06 > 0:24:12Do you ever watch these horror pictures? People believe this stuff.
0:24:12 > 0:24:17Here's a fella in the spooky woods and here comes the old mummy...
0:24:17 > 0:24:22He sees the mummy and starts running at 1,000 miles an hour...
0:24:22 > 0:24:25Here comes the mummy...
0:24:27 > 0:24:30He just can't get away from that mummy!
0:24:32 > 0:24:37All of a sudden, he's run 20 miles at a speed of 50 mile an hour,
0:24:37 > 0:24:40trying to figure out where to go...
0:24:40 > 0:24:43And... The mummy gets him! Man!
0:24:43 > 0:24:47Don't you believe them stories, man!
0:24:49 > 0:24:54This is a book written by a friend of yours, Bud Schulberg...
0:24:54 > 0:24:59- Associate.- All right, associate. - I've got a lecture on friendship.
0:24:59 > 0:25:03Friend is a big word. You're an associate.
0:25:03 > 0:25:07I can't say you're a friend. You're an associate.
0:25:07 > 0:25:14- But he's known you a long time. - For the few minutes he's around me. - He wrote a good book about you.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17- Who?- Schulberg did. - I've never read the book.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20Well, it is a very good book indeed.
0:25:20 > 0:25:27He points out, interestingly, all the contradictions in you, that are fascinating.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30- Can I just put one..?- Yeah, put one.
0:25:30 > 0:25:35"He's devoted to a religion that sees the white race as devils.
0:25:35 > 0:25:40"And yet he keeps in almost daily touch with white friends.
0:25:40 > 0:25:46"In fact he's got more white friends than any black fighter I've ever known."
0:25:46 > 0:25:51Isn't there a contrast there? Your faith teaches separatism.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55We discussed it before on my programme.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59And it's true. I've seen it. You have white friends.
0:25:59 > 0:26:02You say friends. I say associates.
0:26:02 > 0:26:07- You don't have a white friend? What about Angelo Dundee?- Associate.
0:26:07 > 0:26:13A friend is someone who wouldn't consider giving his life for you.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16The one who won't think about it.
0:26:16 > 0:26:21He always has the desire to give and keep back nothing.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24Give and not look for nothing in return.
0:26:24 > 0:26:29Everybody will whup me for money, what they can get. Not friends.
0:26:29 > 0:26:34I wrote a poem - # Friendship is a gift That can't be bought or sold
0:26:34 > 0:26:37# But its value is greater Than a mountain made of gold
0:26:37 > 0:26:40# Gold is cold and lifeless It can't see nor hear
0:26:40 > 0:26:43# In trouble it's powerless to cheer
0:26:43 > 0:26:46# It has no ears to listen No heart to understand
0:26:46 > 0:26:49# It can't bring comfort With a helping hand
0:26:49 > 0:26:52# If you ask God for a gift Be thankful if he sends
0:26:52 > 0:26:55# Not diamonds or pearls But the love of real friends. #
0:26:55 > 0:26:58So what I'm trying to say is this...
0:26:58 > 0:27:05I got a lot of white associates. Elijah Muhammad preached that the white American man is the devil.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08He's never mentioned English people.
0:27:08 > 0:27:14The English people never lynched us, castrated us, stuck knives in us,
0:27:14 > 0:27:18enslaved us, robbed us of our names...
0:27:18 > 0:27:21Elijah preaches that the white man of America -
0:27:21 > 0:27:26God taught him - is the blue-eyed, blond-haired devil.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29No good in him. He's gonna be destroyed.
0:27:29 > 0:27:31He is the devil!
0:27:31 > 0:27:36Elijah Muhammad preaches that. I follow him, and white Americans
0:27:36 > 0:27:39know him and tap his phone.
0:27:39 > 0:27:43They know we're there - we're 2,500,000-strong.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47We're all over America and nobody yet attacks us as being liars.
0:27:47 > 0:27:51No white man says, "We are not a race of devils."
0:27:51 > 0:27:57Now he's telling me that I believe that the white man is the devil.
0:27:57 > 0:28:01We do believe that... No, we know it. You understand?
0:28:01 > 0:28:05Now, since this is true, we are in the country.
0:28:05 > 0:28:09We serve people, we're intelligent, we're civilised.
0:28:09 > 0:28:14Our goal is to separate, have our own country, clean up, quit fighting,
0:28:14 > 0:28:17quit killing one another, quit disrespecting.
0:28:17 > 0:28:22We're the most respected people in America, we're the cleanest -
0:28:22 > 0:28:28this is women and men - we wanna be righteous, we're tired of begging.
0:28:28 > 0:28:33We wanna have our own country, have our own land, and rule ourselves.
0:28:33 > 0:28:37Quit forcing ourselves on people that don't want us.
0:28:37 > 0:28:42Just because I'm in a civilisation, and have an associate who's white...
0:28:42 > 0:28:46White people don't love black people. They hate black people.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50- It's not true. - What do you mean?- It's not true.
0:28:50 > 0:28:56- You're the biggest hypocrite. - I don't dislike black people.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59I know you're all right. I mean the others.
0:28:59 > 0:29:04I'm not saying you dislike them but white people give black people jobs,
0:29:04 > 0:29:09black people are dying in hospitals, white people give black people jobs.
0:29:09 > 0:29:14We've been there for 400 years and white people feed us, they clothe us.
0:29:14 > 0:29:19We totally rely on the white man and the white man is good to us.
0:29:19 > 0:29:24He's doing a lot to help us but it's the same white man.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27Talk about us, don't like us.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30Castro gets on with other countries.
0:29:30 > 0:29:35The Catholics and Protestants are fighting, but you try to negotiate.
0:29:35 > 0:29:41Can I say you're a hypocrite, doing business with a Protestant?
0:29:41 > 0:29:48Whoever it is fighting round here, if you do business together, it don't mean you're a hypocrite.
0:29:48 > 0:29:53Nixon went to see Mao in China - his enemy who wanted to blow up America.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56But they still do business.
0:29:56 > 0:29:59Now I'm a hypocrite because a white fella works for me!?
0:29:59 > 0:30:03- Because I've got white fans? - No, no.- Then why read this?
0:30:03 > 0:30:07- You're missing the...- No, I ain't.
0:30:07 > 0:30:11- You did, you...- I came on. You ain't using no blackmail.
0:30:11 > 0:30:16Making out I ain't got no sense. I'm taught by Elijah Muhammad.
0:30:16 > 0:30:20Oxford University offered me a professorship.
0:30:20 > 0:30:26I'm not just a fighter. I can talk all week on millions of subjects.
0:30:26 > 0:30:30You do not have enough wisdom to corner me on TV.
0:30:30 > 0:30:36You do not have enough. You're too small mentally to tackle me on what I represent.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38I'm serious.
0:30:38 > 0:30:43This show's nothing to Muhammad Ali! If you've got questions, ask them.
0:30:43 > 0:30:47I'll eat you up! There ain't no way you can tackle me.
0:30:47 > 0:30:54All of you are tricky. John Hawkins tricked us to America. You get me on your show,
0:30:54 > 0:30:58- and you ask these tricky... - What are you talking about?
0:30:58 > 0:31:05You got a big bomb for me - "Bud Schulberg says white men work for you and you say they're the devil!"
0:31:05 > 0:31:10I'm supposed to be trapped now? How you gonna trap me?
0:31:10 > 0:31:15You're a white man. How you gonna get me on a TV show and trap me?
0:31:17 > 0:31:21You can't beat me, physically nor mentally.
0:31:21 > 0:31:25You are really a joke. I'm serious. This is a joke!
0:31:25 > 0:31:28You can read this book all you want.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31Elijah Muhammad preaches the doom of America,
0:31:31 > 0:31:37and the biggest white people in America, they don't tackle us!
0:31:37 > 0:31:41How you gonna get me on a show and get this for me?
0:31:41 > 0:31:45You planned it. I didn't know you were gonna ask me this!
0:31:45 > 0:31:48Behind stage, he's so nice and...
0:31:48 > 0:31:53Oh, a nice talk and then, this is a serious thing you've got me with!
0:31:53 > 0:32:01You contradict... You tackle my religion, you're saying I think white associates are devils.
0:32:01 > 0:32:05And you got me on a serious TV show and this is the death question.
0:32:05 > 0:32:11- Suppose I couldn't answer that and you had me cornered?- A likely story!
0:32:11 > 0:32:18- I caught you!- It was a good question. You've talked for 15 minutes. - I'll talk for 20 more.- I know that.
0:32:18 > 0:32:21APPLAUSE
0:32:26 > 0:32:31Sometimes you take your life in your hands in this job!
0:32:31 > 0:32:34The last time I interviewed Ali was in 1981.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37He was on his way down. He'd had a fight or three too many.
0:32:37 > 0:32:42I found it a sad experience. It was like talking to his shadow.
0:32:42 > 0:32:46- It's good to see you. - I'm glad to be here.- You are.
0:32:46 > 0:32:49I'm getting old now.
0:32:49 > 0:32:55- Do you feel old?- Yeah, I feel like I'm about...about 73 years of age.
0:32:55 > 0:32:58- Do you?- No, I feel pretty good. - You do.
0:32:58 > 0:33:01It's good to see you looking good.
0:33:01 > 0:33:08There's been speculation about your condition after the Holmes fight, particularly here.
0:33:08 > 0:33:13- There was a suggestion of brain damage?- I'll tell you what...
0:33:13 > 0:33:16Your brain controls what comes out of your mouth.
0:33:16 > 0:33:21During this interview, you check me out and after you tell me if I have brain damage.
0:33:21 > 0:33:23I'll let you know at the end, OK?
0:33:23 > 0:33:26I went to the world's best clinic,
0:33:26 > 0:33:32and there were reports about me having brain trouble, kidney trouble
0:33:32 > 0:33:37and speech defects, so I went to the clinic and got a physical.
0:33:37 > 0:33:40I stayed there about two days.
0:33:40 > 0:33:43And, er... A 100% check-out.
0:33:43 > 0:33:48So all these local doctors - them one-horse-town doctors -
0:33:48 > 0:33:53they can pack up because I got an OK from the best clinic in the world.
0:33:53 > 0:33:58The question people ask themselves about you, out of love for you...
0:33:58 > 0:34:03- Yeah.- Is that they don't want you to keep getting hurt in the ring.
0:34:03 > 0:34:08- I've never got hurt.- You must have. - When?- I saw you fight Joe Frazier.
0:34:08 > 0:34:13- I didn't get hurt.- You didn't? You did a very good act!
0:34:13 > 0:34:16- Are you calling me a liar?- No, no!
0:34:18 > 0:34:23- If I had a lower IQ, I'd enjoy this interview!- Yeah, yeah.
0:34:26 > 0:34:30- No, you know... - I've been hit but never knocked out.
0:34:30 > 0:34:34I've never been stopped like Joe Frazier, George Foreman,
0:34:34 > 0:34:36Ken Norton or Leon Spinks.
0:34:36 > 0:34:39I mean, the guys were knocked out...
0:34:39 > 0:34:44I mean, they'd be out for a count of 25 if they counted that long.
0:34:44 > 0:34:49Ten's the limit but some go down for a count of 100 and go to hospital.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52I've never been hurt. I broke my jaw once,
0:34:52 > 0:34:58but otherwise, I've never been beat. Even the Holmes fight, I wasn't bad.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01They stopped it because I wasn't feeling right.
0:35:01 > 0:35:05- Are you serious about fighting Holmes again?- I shall return!
0:35:05 > 0:35:10- You shall?- You heard me. - I heard you. Indeed I did.
0:35:10 > 0:35:15First, I'm gonna take on a couple of title contenders, not Holmes.
0:35:15 > 0:35:21I'll take a couple of contenders and show them that I'm not hurt.
0:35:21 > 0:35:25And then, Holmes has said that if I can prove myself qualifying...
0:35:25 > 0:35:29I looked so bad that night.
0:35:29 > 0:35:33I couldn't fight no more. I couldn't move, I didn't hit him.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36The first round, I was dehydrated.
0:35:36 > 0:35:4111 rounds and 110 degrees heat, and no sweat came out of my body.
0:35:41 > 0:35:48- But will it be different next time, Muhammad?- We'll see. That's why I'm going back.
0:35:48 > 0:35:53If they say I don't do it, then I'll just have to admit that I'm finished.
0:35:53 > 0:35:58Why do you need to go back again? You've done more than any boxer.
0:35:58 > 0:36:04I realise that I have more fans than I had before... The Holmes fight.
0:36:04 > 0:36:09But it's myself... I wanna show to myself...
0:36:09 > 0:36:14That I can beat Holmes and win the title for the fourth...
0:36:14 > 0:36:19I'm the only man to have the chance. No man has won it three times, so...
0:36:19 > 0:36:25Why do we go to the moon? Because it's there. Why Mars? It's there.
0:36:25 > 0:36:28Columbus discovered America by taking a risk.
0:36:28 > 0:36:34So he who is not courageous will accomplish nothing in life.
0:36:34 > 0:36:38I'm the only man who's got close to a fourth championship.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41It's something I gotta do.
0:36:41 > 0:36:45But you're taking a risk with more than your physical wellbeing.
0:36:45 > 0:36:50You're taking a risk with the fans, with your reputation,
0:36:50 > 0:36:53with the love you feel wherever you go.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56They don't want you badly beaten.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59Badly beaten...? ONE PERSON CLAPS
0:36:59 > 0:37:03- You got one fan over there! - No, no, no.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06Just one person agreed, I suppose.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09- The Holmes fight, I wasn't badly beaten.- No?
0:37:09 > 0:37:14I saw the film. I watched it. I didn't get badly beaten.
0:37:14 > 0:37:18I took a few punches but not badly beaten.
0:37:18 > 0:37:22Look, if a guy's flying a plane through a thunderstorm,
0:37:22 > 0:37:25I can't tell him, "Go this way."
0:37:25 > 0:37:28He knows what he's doing.
0:37:28 > 0:37:33I've been fighting 27 years so I know more about boxing than you.
0:37:33 > 0:37:36- That's true.- Right?- That's true.
0:37:37 > 0:37:42- You have been...- Look at my face. I can't see the camera.
0:37:42 > 0:37:46- You're still pretty good. - Almost as pretty as you!
0:37:48 > 0:37:53You've been in the game 27 years. One last point and we'll move on.
0:37:53 > 0:37:57You've seen what can happen to fighters.
0:37:57 > 0:38:02You see the shambling wrecks going round at every boxing occasion.
0:38:02 > 0:38:06And people don't want that to happen to you.
0:38:06 > 0:38:09- What? A shambling wreck? - That's right.
0:38:09 > 0:38:14- I'm a long way from a wreck.- No, people are scared that might happen.
0:38:14 > 0:38:18Well, let me tell you why they're frightened.
0:38:18 > 0:38:21Some people can see further than others.
0:38:22 > 0:38:28Some people are... pressed with limitations.
0:38:29 > 0:38:34We live in a world of limitations and some can see further than others.
0:38:34 > 0:38:38When people judge what I do with their logic,
0:38:38 > 0:38:41it can't be done.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44There are reasons it can't be done.
0:38:44 > 0:38:46Their knowledge of history says that.
0:38:46 > 0:38:52Their reason, knowledge and logic clashes with my superior belief.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55The result is, they don't believe.
0:38:57 > 0:39:02My thinking is so superior, my knowledge is so positive
0:39:02 > 0:39:07and my logic is so wise that it clashes with their mentality,
0:39:07 > 0:39:10which is down here, and I'm up here.
0:39:10 > 0:39:14Being so high, I can see further than you.
0:39:14 > 0:39:19And you're looking up saying, "Ali, don't do it. Ali, don't do it.
0:39:19 > 0:39:22"Ali, please stop. You'll get hurt!"
0:39:22 > 0:39:27And you're on a job making £60, £70 a week, whoever this guy is.
0:39:27 > 0:39:33Never been out of the country, not known in his own neighbourhood.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35"Ali, don't do it!"
0:39:35 > 0:39:39I'm such a high level, I don't think like you.
0:39:39 > 0:39:45- Not you, I mean the other person. - But you know why they say that?
0:39:45 > 0:39:50- For the best reasons.- They're wary. It looks dangerous to them.- Right.
0:39:50 > 0:39:54It's not dangerous for me. It's another day...
0:39:54 > 0:39:59- It's affection. They've never felt about a boxer like you.- That's nice.
0:40:06 > 0:40:10Let me say... Take this interview as an example, look how we're talking.
0:40:10 > 0:40:14Look at how I'm handling you!
0:40:14 > 0:40:17You're a wise man.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20Boxers can't do this!
0:40:20 > 0:40:22Even young boxers.
0:40:22 > 0:40:28Knowledge, wisdom. Look how we're talking. This looks like my show!
0:40:28 > 0:40:31APPLAUSE
0:40:35 > 0:40:38He had one more fight and he lost.
0:40:38 > 0:40:44Shortly after that interview, in 1981, his boxing career had ended.
0:40:44 > 0:40:47He who'd given so much was finally defeated.
0:40:47 > 0:40:51He who'd floated like a butterfly was brought down to earth.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54There's a moral but I'm not sure what it is.
0:40:54 > 0:40:58But when I think of him, I smile with pleasure.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01I - we - were lucky to have made his acquaintance.
0:41:01 > 0:41:06- I have a poem.- Ah.- One minute. The poem goes like this.
0:41:06 > 0:41:13Here's how the Joe Frazier fight is gonna sound on the radio for the people who can't afford the seats.
0:41:13 > 0:41:15The fight goes like this -
0:41:15 > 0:41:19Ding, Ali's out to meet Frazier But Frazier starts to retreat
0:41:19 > 0:41:23If Frazier goes back much farther He'll wind up in a ringside seat
0:41:23 > 0:41:25Ali swings with the left Ali swings with the right
0:41:25 > 0:41:27Look at the kid carry the fight
0:41:27 > 0:41:30Frazier keeps backing But there's not enough room
0:41:30 > 0:41:33It's a matter of time Before Ali lowers the boom
0:41:33 > 0:41:36Now Ali lands with the right What a beautiful swing
0:41:36 > 0:41:40And the punch lifts Frazier Clean out of the ring...
0:41:40 > 0:41:42APPLAUSE
0:41:50 > 0:41:55Frazier's still rising But the referee wears a frown
0:41:55 > 0:41:59For he can't start counting Till Frazier comes down
0:42:01 > 0:42:04Now Frazier disappears from view
0:42:04 > 0:42:06The crowd is getting frantic
0:42:06 > 0:42:09But our radars have picked him up
0:42:09 > 0:42:11He's somewhere over the Atlantic
0:42:11 > 0:42:15Who would have thought When they came to the fight
0:42:15 > 0:42:19That they'd witness the launch Of a coloured satellite?
0:42:28 > 0:42:31APPLAUSE
0:42:31 > 0:42:33Good night.