0:00:18 > 0:00:27APPLAUSE
0:00:30 > 0:00:32Evening and welcome.
0:00:32 > 0:00:34Tonight is a very special occasion because I have
0:00:34 > 0:00:37as my guests two very distinctive and distinguished people.
0:00:37 > 0:00:40One is someone who is arguably the greatest entertainer
0:00:40 > 0:00:43this country has ever produced and she is Gracie Fields.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46The other, my first guest,
0:00:46 > 0:00:48is also arguably the most entertainingly paradoxical figure
0:00:48 > 0:00:51in Britain today. He was once described, and I quote,
0:00:51 > 0:00:54as, "a popular poet who has the respect of unpopular poets."
0:00:54 > 0:00:55He's a bestselling poet
0:00:55 > 0:00:59in an age when poetry is not much bought or read,
0:00:59 > 0:01:02a man who regrets much that has happened to the English way of life
0:01:02 > 0:01:04and yet who's celebrated the nature
0:01:04 > 0:01:06of the modern existence that he deplores.
0:01:06 > 0:01:09As another poet once said of him, and I quote again,
0:01:09 > 0:01:11"He's always been easy to underestimate."
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Lately his career has entered new territory with a series of records
0:01:14 > 0:01:16in which his verse is set to music.
0:01:16 > 0:01:17The tunes are by Jim Parker,
0:01:17 > 0:01:20the words and the performance are by our Poet Laureate,
0:01:20 > 0:01:24Sir John Betjeman.
0:01:24 > 0:01:30APPLAUSE
0:01:32 > 0:01:42THEY PLAY IN A TRAD JAZZ STYLE
0:01:54 > 0:01:57How straight it flew, how long it flew,
0:01:57 > 0:01:59It clear'd the rutty track,
0:01:59 > 0:02:02And soaring, disappeared from view
0:02:02 > 0:02:05Beyond the bunker's back.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08A glorious, sailing, bounding drive
0:02:08 > 0:02:17That made me glad I was alive.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31And down the fairway, straight and long
0:02:31 > 0:02:34It glowed a lonely white
0:02:34 > 0:02:37I played an iron sure and strong
0:02:37 > 0:02:40And clipp'd it out of sight,
0:02:40 > 0:02:43And spite of grassy banks between
0:02:43 > 0:02:46I knew I'd find it on the green.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49And so I did. It lay content
0:02:49 > 0:02:52Two paces from the pin
0:02:52 > 0:02:54A steady putt and then it went
0:02:54 > 0:02:57Oh, most securely in
0:02:57 > 0:03:00The very turf rejoiced to see
0:03:00 > 0:03:06That quite unprecedented three.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24Ah! Seaweed smells from sandy caves
0:03:24 > 0:03:27And thyme and mist in whiffs,
0:03:27 > 0:03:32Incoming tide, Atlantic waves
0:03:32 > 0:03:34Slapping the sunny cliffs,
0:03:34 > 0:03:37Larksong and sea sounds in the air
0:03:37 > 0:03:43And splendour, splendour everywhere.
0:03:45 > 0:03:54APPLAUSE
0:03:54 > 0:03:56That was my first guest tonight, Sir John Betjeman.
0:03:56 > 0:04:01APPLAUSE
0:04:08 > 0:04:13As someone newly taken up golf myself I love that poem, actually.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16Very kind of you. Smashing poem.
0:04:16 > 0:04:17Are you much of a golfer yourself?
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Very bad.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23I used to be better than I am now but I was never really good.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26Yes. And people, ahem, I hoped,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30weren't looking when I did the bad shots.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32They never were when I did the good ones.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34LAUGHTER
0:04:34 > 0:04:36Yes, I think every golfer could say that, Sir John, yes.
0:04:36 > 0:04:39What about this fusion now, of your poetry and music?
0:04:39 > 0:04:42You've had quite a staggering success, actually.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45You're a best selling long-playing record artist now,
0:04:45 > 0:04:48because I think Banana Blush, I think that sold about 20,000 copies,
0:04:48 > 0:04:50which is very good indeed.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54I wonder how easy you felt in this situation?
0:04:54 > 0:04:58I was very pleased and delighted when Jim Parker,
0:04:58 > 0:05:02whom I hadn't met but I met through the Barrow Poets,
0:05:02 > 0:05:05wanted to do these, set these things to music.
0:05:05 > 0:05:08And he's a very quiet, modest man.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11And his music seemed to catch the mood of the verse.
0:05:11 > 0:05:15I was staggered and delighted.
0:05:15 > 0:05:16How musical are you, in fact?
0:05:16 > 0:05:18Can't sing a note in tune.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21LAUGHTER
0:05:21 > 0:05:23I know about rhythm, I think, and the sound of words.
0:05:23 > 0:05:28I'm not really musical,
0:05:28 > 0:05:31and I was always told by my parents I wasn't musical because I couldn't
0:05:31 > 0:05:36sing in tune. Was there any music in your family, though, at all?
0:05:36 > 0:05:39Oh, I had forebears who were musical, yes.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42There was an old thing called Gilbert Betjeman
0:05:42 > 0:05:45who was a great friend of Grieg,
0:05:45 > 0:05:47and was something to do with Covent Garden,
0:05:47 > 0:05:48I think he was first violin,
0:05:48 > 0:05:55and he introduced Wagner to Glasgow first.
0:05:55 > 0:06:00And when the music started, the audience began to laugh.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03So Gilbert Betjeman tapped his baton
0:06:03 > 0:06:06on the whatever it is, and said,
0:06:06 > 0:06:11"Are you going to listen to this music or are you not?
0:06:11 > 0:06:16"Because if you don't, I shall go home and enjoy a whisky toddy."
0:06:16 > 0:06:18LAUGHTER
0:06:18 > 0:06:21And they stayed? They did, yes.
0:06:21 > 0:06:25Are you an admirer of lyricists, of lyric writers?
0:06:25 > 0:06:30Very much. And particularly... Who's your favourite?
0:06:30 > 0:06:32Lorenz Hart is my favourite.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34All-time favourite, I think.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37Didn't he write My Heart Stood Still?
0:06:37 > 0:06:39I think he did. "I took one look at you."
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Oh, he's like Burns, he's frightfully good.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Yes. Do you think it stands up as poetry,
0:06:45 > 0:06:48some of the best lyric writers? I'm sure it does.
0:06:48 > 0:06:52And I think some of the best is Cole Porter. Yes.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54Once described to me by another lyric writer as being both
0:06:54 > 0:06:56Gilbert and Sullivan, because he wrote the music...
0:06:56 > 0:06:58The music and the words, did he?
0:06:58 > 0:07:01Yes. What's the difference, do you think, Sir John,
0:07:01 > 0:07:04I mean, why did you never write a lyric for a song?
0:07:04 > 0:07:07Because several other very good writers have done that.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10PG Wodehouse, for instance, he wrote lyrics for songs, didn't he?
0:07:10 > 0:07:12Did he? That was clever of him.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16LAUGHTER
0:07:16 > 0:07:19I can't, er, get the tune in my head
0:07:19 > 0:07:24to write the words that'll go with it.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27I'd have to write the words first and trust to luck,
0:07:27 > 0:07:30as with Jim Parker, that the right tune had come along.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32Tell me about writing poetry.
0:07:32 > 0:07:36As you get older, is it easier or harder to write poetry?
0:07:36 > 0:07:38Harder and slower.
0:07:38 > 0:07:40A very kind question.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43LAUGHTER
0:07:43 > 0:07:46Why, why is it a kind question?
0:07:46 > 0:07:48Because it doesn't get easier.
0:07:48 > 0:07:50It doesn't? I find I do it,
0:07:50 > 0:07:54and I find I only think of something in the morning when I wake up,
0:07:54 > 0:07:56a line occurs.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59Then if I've got a pencil near, I write it down,
0:07:59 > 0:08:02and then I look at it at breakfast and it's awful.
0:08:02 > 0:08:05And I hope for the best
0:08:05 > 0:08:09and that it'll gradually be added to during the day.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13Walking about, I find the best way of writing poetry.
0:08:13 > 0:08:14Was it ever easy for you, though?
0:08:14 > 0:08:17Yes. It was? I longed to do it all the time.
0:08:17 > 0:08:20And I felt every time I didn't write a poem
0:08:20 > 0:08:23when I had a bit of spare time I was wasting my time.
0:08:23 > 0:08:25Really? And the words literally flowed in those days?
0:08:25 > 0:08:29Yes. And nothing made time rush by quicker
0:08:29 > 0:08:32than sitting down with a poem in mind and writing it out,
0:08:32 > 0:08:37and part of the pleasure is writing it on the page,
0:08:37 > 0:08:43and seeing how it looks.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46And then reciting it again and again,
0:08:46 > 0:08:50then trying it out on a friend, whom you can trust,
0:08:50 > 0:08:55and then you can tell whether they like it or not.
0:08:55 > 0:08:59If they cough, you know it's a bore. and it won't work.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01LAUGHTER
0:09:01 > 0:09:03And what do you do on those occasions?
0:09:03 > 0:09:06You didn't publish the poem, or do you rewrite it, or what?
0:09:06 > 0:09:09Well, I had a very kind publisher who I knew at Oxford.
0:09:09 > 0:09:12I think everything is done by graft.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16And, if I hadn't known this man I would never have been printed,
0:09:16 > 0:09:20I don't expect. Mm, mm.
0:09:20 > 0:09:22When in fact did you last write a poem,
0:09:22 > 0:09:25or attempt to write a poem in recent weeks?
0:09:25 > 0:09:28About three days ago I was trying to do one
0:09:28 > 0:09:31on Peterborough Cathedral,
0:09:31 > 0:09:35an un-regarded, beautiful building which has got in it
0:09:35 > 0:09:39a chapel called St Sprite
0:09:39 > 0:09:43and I imagine that's the Holy Spirit.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45And it's such a nice name for a chapel,
0:09:45 > 0:09:48I thought I'd try and do a thing about the Sprite
0:09:48 > 0:09:50in Peterborough Cathedral.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54I got the first words out, and have now lost them.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57You've lost them. Mislaid them?
0:09:57 > 0:09:59Mislaid them somewhere.
0:09:59 > 0:10:00Can't you remember them? No.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04LAUGHTER
0:10:04 > 0:10:07So what are you going to do? Hope I'll find them again.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10LAUGHTER
0:10:10 > 0:10:13You're not going to sit down and rewrite them, no.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15What, what, what moves you to write poetry nowadays?
0:10:15 > 0:10:18What stirs you to write poetry?
0:10:18 > 0:10:23Places, faces, eyes.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26Eyes? Eyes.
0:10:26 > 0:10:31Why? I think people speak through their eyes.
0:10:31 > 0:10:34And you can catch somebody's eye
0:10:34 > 0:10:37and that's how you talk, very often.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39I think they're our antennae.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42Yes.
0:10:42 > 0:10:44So do you literally go round looking at people's eyes
0:10:44 > 0:10:45and waiting for inspiration?
0:10:45 > 0:10:47Well, not too pointedly, or you'll get into trouble.
0:10:47 > 0:10:51LAUGHTER
0:10:51 > 0:11:01Of course you've always been moved in your poetry to write about
0:11:06 > 0:11:09You, of course, were many things before you were a poet, Sir John.
0:11:09 > 0:11:10You've had some remarkable jobs.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13You did all the things that James Thurber said he never did
0:11:13 > 0:11:14before he became a writer.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17You were once, you were what, a copywriter for Shell, weren't you?
0:11:17 > 0:11:20Yes, indeed. I mean, how disastrous effect did that have on your spirit?
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Or perhaps it didn't? I didn't like it very much.
0:11:23 > 0:11:24I started, though, as a journalist.
0:11:24 > 0:11:25As you did. Yes.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28And it teaches one to write things simply and not like, um,
0:11:28 > 0:11:29government department forms.
0:11:29 > 0:11:30Yes.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33It's a very good training, it's a good training in economy, isn't it?
0:11:33 > 0:11:34Yes. Yes.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36Now, still on the advertising, I mean,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38advertising slogans and phrases and this sort of thing
0:11:38 > 0:11:40have always been a part of your poetry, haven't they?
0:11:40 > 0:11:43You've always stuck them in there. What's the fascination you have?
0:11:43 > 0:11:45I think sitting in the underground seeing things like,
0:11:45 > 0:11:48"Whatever her party, the sweet young thing,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51"it's certain she'll vote for a Bravington ring."
0:11:51 > 0:11:55LAUGHTER
0:11:55 > 0:11:57"He was bashful, she was shy,
0:11:57 > 0:11:59"a Bravington ring and the cloud passed by."
0:11:59 > 0:12:03LAUGHTER
0:12:03 > 0:12:06And, er, they didn't pay me - that suddenly occurred to me, that.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:12:09 > 0:12:11Do they still exist?
0:12:11 > 0:12:15Bravingtons? Yes. I think they do, yes, I think they do.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17And was it Virol you used to...?
0:12:17 > 0:12:19"Virol. Anaemic girls need it," do you know?
0:12:19 > 0:12:22LAUGHTER
0:12:22 > 0:12:24And iron jelloids.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27LAUGHTER
0:12:27 > 0:12:30Mazawattee Tea, all those things, I think they are most beautiful names.
0:12:30 > 0:12:33Yes, Mazawattee Tea is beautiful, isn't it?
0:12:33 > 0:12:36You really couldn't invent that as a writer, could you?
0:12:36 > 0:12:38Which of all the jobs you did, Sir John,
0:12:38 > 0:12:41on your way to becoming a poet, did you enjoy the most,
0:12:41 > 0:12:45in the sense that it inspired the most poetry for you later on?
0:12:45 > 0:12:48Undoubtedly being a schoolmaster.
0:12:48 > 0:12:51Because it was being a single act on the stage,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54having to keep everybody interested,
0:12:54 > 0:12:59whatever their boredom was,
0:12:59 > 0:13:04and you had to entertain and instruct.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07And boys are very decent to talk to, young boys,
0:13:07 > 0:13:11when they're sitting in a class. You can feel when they're bored.
0:13:11 > 0:13:15You can feel when they respond.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19And I think it's a splendid training, being a schoolmaster.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22But you're talking as if... I mean, I can see,
0:13:22 > 0:13:24what you explained to me, actually,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27a splendid training for a performer, rather than a poet.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30I see that now, as I've always admired music hall above everything
0:13:30 > 0:13:33because there, the music hall artiste has to establish himself
0:13:33 > 0:13:35in the first few seconds,
0:13:35 > 0:13:40otherwise he's a flop.
0:13:40 > 0:13:43Yes. What was the first poem you ever wrote?
0:13:43 > 0:13:45Can you remember?
0:13:45 > 0:13:48Yes, it was appallingly bad.
0:13:48 > 0:13:50It was a crib of Up The Airy Mountain,
0:13:50 > 0:13:52a thing we all had to learn,
0:13:52 > 0:13:53"Down the rushy glen.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57"When the moors are pink with heather,
0:13:57 > 0:14:00"When the sky is as blue as the sea,
0:14:00 > 0:14:03"Marching all together," that seemed all right,
0:14:03 > 0:14:06then the last line is a complete failure.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08"Come fairy folk so we."
0:14:08 > 0:14:14LAUGHTER
0:14:17 > 0:14:19It's not that bad for a first effort.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21Well...
0:14:21 > 0:14:25It's the last line that counts in every poem, I think.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28The last line. Yes, the last line.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32That's interesting. Like the last act in a variety,
0:14:32 > 0:14:34or the last but one act, isn't it, in variety?
0:14:34 > 0:14:37The last act has to be the one that they remember,
0:14:37 > 0:14:40so must the last line be.
0:14:40 > 0:14:43Yes, it's like the punchline at the end of the story.
0:14:43 > 0:14:44Yes.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47You've also written an awful lot, and beautifully,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50some of the most evocative of your poems are about your childhood.
0:14:50 > 0:14:55Why is this? What kind of childhood was it?
0:14:55 > 0:14:58Comfortable. I had kind parents, who, on the whole, let me alone.
0:14:58 > 0:15:03But they sometimes left me with nannies who weren't all that jolly
0:15:03 > 0:15:08and were rather alarming but I've always found I liked my own company
0:15:08 > 0:15:14better than anyone else's, except the children next door in Highgate,
0:15:14 > 0:15:20they were marvellous. You were a solitary child, were you?
0:15:20 > 0:15:24On the whole, yes, I was an only child. Yes.
0:15:24 > 0:15:28And it was an upper-middle-class upbringing that you had.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31Yes, I suppose middle-class, more than upper-middle-class, yes.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34We're talking of course about 60, 70 years ago, aren't we?
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Talking about an Edwardian upbringing. Yes, I'm 71, yes.
0:15:37 > 0:15:42Now, how strict was that upbringing?
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Oh, getting to school in time,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48running up West Hill, feeling sick with breakfast inside one,
0:15:48 > 0:15:51coming home...
0:15:51 > 0:15:56..wondering what mood my father would be in,
0:15:56 > 0:15:59or my mother,
0:15:59 > 0:16:05and then...
0:16:05 > 0:16:09Often having to eat things I didn't like at all, can you remember that?
0:16:09 > 0:16:12Hating fish, I remember.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16And finding it very chewy.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19But the theory was that you ate what was put in front of you.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22You weren't allowed to pick and choose. Oh, yeah, "Finish it up."
0:16:22 > 0:16:25The most awful idea, isn't it? That's right, yes.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28I came across a line of yours which interested me, actually,
0:16:28 > 0:16:31about your childhood, which I'd like to talk to you about.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33You're talking about, you used to go shooting.
0:16:33 > 0:16:36Yes, with my father, yes.
0:16:36 > 0:16:37And the line is, "How many times
0:16:37 > 0:16:40"must I explain the way a boy should hold a gun?"
0:16:40 > 0:16:42That's your father talking to you.
0:16:42 > 0:16:46"I recollect my father's pain at such a milksop of a son."
0:16:46 > 0:16:49That's right. He wanted me to be open air, with nice, greased hair,
0:16:49 > 0:16:51and a happy smile, and very keen on sport.
0:16:51 > 0:16:57I was no good at any of it.
0:16:57 > 0:17:00LAUGHTER
0:17:00 > 0:17:02Did you try hard?
0:17:02 > 0:17:05To fulfil his ambition in those respects?
0:17:05 > 0:17:09Not very. I think shooting, I couldn't bear.
0:17:09 > 0:17:12I didn't like killing the things,
0:17:12 > 0:17:15and then I was always missing, and wounding the unfortunate bird.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17Yes. Or rabbit.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20Ooh, it was horrible. Yes.
0:17:20 > 0:17:24What about the sort of moralistic attitudes prevalent in those days?
0:17:24 > 0:17:28Because in Edwardian times things were proper, weren't they?
0:17:28 > 0:17:32Oh. yes.
0:17:32 > 0:17:35And I wasn't, I thought... I didn't know anything about sex.
0:17:35 > 0:17:37You didn't? No, I thought it was...
0:17:37 > 0:17:38I didn't know what it was.
0:17:38 > 0:17:40Really? I mean, what age are we talking about now?
0:17:40 > 0:17:44Up until what age didn't you know about it?
0:17:44 > 0:17:49I don't think I found out about it until I went to my public school.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51I used to be told vague things about plants,
0:17:51 > 0:17:54and didn't know what they were talking about.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58LAUGHTER
0:17:58 > 0:18:01And, er, then I thought that it was something very wicked
0:18:01 > 0:18:03when I found out about it.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07I thought if there was a sin against the Holy Ghost then it was sex.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09Really? I really thought that.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12Yes. And what about, I mean,
0:18:12 > 0:18:13did you have crushes, though, when you were...?
0:18:13 > 0:18:16Oh, Lord, yes. Endless crushes.
0:18:16 > 0:18:21The purest love of one's life is before one's had any sex.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26And when one doesn't know what it is, this passion, outgoing passion,
0:18:26 > 0:18:29I'd do anything for the person I loved.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33It didn't matter whether it was girl or boy.
0:18:33 > 0:18:36My first people I noticed were girls.
0:18:36 > 0:18:40And it moved on, of course.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43I don't believe that one's indifferent to either sex.
0:18:43 > 0:18:46Yes, yes, but you were more strongly towards the girls, were you?
0:18:46 > 0:18:49I did, yes, on the whole. In the end, you got it sorted out.
0:18:49 > 0:18:55LAUGHTER
0:18:55 > 0:18:58I'm delighted about that, Sir John.
0:18:58 > 0:19:01LAUGHTER
0:19:01 > 0:19:04Did you, in fact, did you, when you had these crushes,
0:19:04 > 0:19:06did it move you to write poetry?
0:19:06 > 0:19:09Yes.
0:19:09 > 0:19:11Deeper feelings than I've ever felt,
0:19:11 > 0:19:16never felt so sick with love as when I was in my teens.
0:19:16 > 0:19:19And indeed at the age of about seven, I think,
0:19:19 > 0:19:23was the first love I felt. Really? The most beautiful girl,
0:19:23 > 0:19:26with gold hair, called Peggy Purey-Cust.
0:19:26 > 0:19:27LAUGHTER
0:19:27 > 0:19:31Called Peggy...? Purey-Cust.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35She lived in West Hill, Highgate, and she had blue eyes and gold hair,
0:19:35 > 0:19:39and a slightly turned-up nose, and a sort of down over her cheeks,
0:19:39 > 0:19:43so that ever since then,
0:19:43 > 0:19:47people I've loved have had to look slightly like Peggy Purey-Cust.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50LAUGHTER
0:19:50 > 0:19:52Amazing. And everyone you've met like that
0:19:52 > 0:19:55have you fallen in love with and written a poem about?
0:19:55 > 0:19:57Generally, yes. LAUGHTER
0:19:57 > 0:19:59You've written, of course, there's a specific kind of Betjeman woman,
0:19:59 > 0:20:03isn't there, you've celebrated it in your poems?
0:20:03 > 0:20:05I mean, she's been on the whole, is she not,
0:20:05 > 0:20:07a rather strapping-thighed lady?
0:20:07 > 0:20:08I like athletic girls, yes.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10LAUGHTER
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Yes.
0:20:13 > 0:20:16There's a lovely poem of yours, The Licorice Fields of Pontefract.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18Oh, yes, I remember who she was, too.
0:20:18 > 0:20:19Who was she?
0:20:19 > 0:20:21LAUGHTER Well, she was a Berkshire girl
0:20:21 > 0:20:24with red hair and brown eyes and freckles,
0:20:24 > 0:20:28and a rather sulky expression.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31Oh, she was beautiful. Really? Still is, yes.
0:20:31 > 0:20:32And still is, I see.
0:20:32 > 0:20:36Did they respond to your...?
0:20:36 > 0:20:39Well, that was that talking with the eyes,
0:20:39 > 0:20:41I never said anything in that instance -
0:20:41 > 0:20:43I just hoped, but nothing happened.
0:20:43 > 0:20:44Nothing happened?
0:20:44 > 0:20:48LAUGHTER
0:20:48 > 0:20:51Let's talk now about another aspect of your life, Sir John,
0:20:51 > 0:20:53this thing you touched on before,
0:20:53 > 0:20:56the thing about loving all things music hall and this sort of thing.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00When did that date from, your love of the theatre?
0:21:00 > 0:21:04I think when we lived in Chelsea,
0:21:04 > 0:21:06and I used to go to the Chelsea Palace,
0:21:06 > 0:21:09and they had Lew Lake on then,
0:21:09 > 0:21:12and old-fashioned comedians,
0:21:12 > 0:21:16and then there was a marvellous time when I was taken to the Palladium
0:21:16 > 0:21:20and saw Marie Lloyd, and heard her sing,
0:21:20 > 0:21:23"I'm one of the ruins that Cromwell knocked about a bit," and she was
0:21:23 > 0:21:26very old then, but I could see, even then here was somebody,
0:21:26 > 0:21:30a huge personality.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33Yes. Who are your favourites at that time,
0:21:33 > 0:21:37who were the ones you really went out of your way to go and see?
0:21:37 > 0:21:41Still I'd go miles, if he were alive, to see Max Miller.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45I think he was funnier than anyone I ever saw.
0:21:45 > 0:21:51Though George Robey made me cry with laughter, and so did...
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Why, there were so many. Wilkie Bard, do you remember?
0:21:54 > 0:21:59"I want to sing in opera, I've got that kind of voice.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02"Yes, yes. Signor Caruso told me I ought to do so."
0:22:02 > 0:22:04Awfully good words, I wonder who wrote them.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06I don't know, somebody we've never heard of, possibly.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09Yes. Why, why this particular regard that you have for comedians?
0:22:09 > 0:22:12For blue-nosed comedians, too, I mean, let's face it, Max Miller,
0:22:12 > 0:22:15I mean, a cheeky chappie. Oh, he was wonderful.
0:22:15 > 0:22:19Was he? Oh, my goodness, the timing.
0:22:19 > 0:22:23That record, Max at the Met,
0:22:23 > 0:22:25and incidentally it was the favourite record of TS Eliot,
0:22:25 > 0:22:27the poet.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29He adored it, yes.
0:22:29 > 0:22:31How do you know that? Because he played it to me.
0:22:31 > 0:22:32Really?
0:22:32 > 0:22:34LAUGHTER
0:22:34 > 0:22:38The thought of TS Eliot playing Max Miller at the Met to you, I mean,
0:22:38 > 0:22:39that's absolutely mind-blowing.
0:22:39 > 0:22:42How extraordinary. What did Eliot like about him?
0:22:42 > 0:22:45Oh, he liked the timing and the words.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47And that's to do with the poet's sense of rhythm,
0:22:47 > 0:22:49of meter and this sort of thing?
0:22:49 > 0:22:52Yes, and his being in touch with the audience was a lovely thing.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54You can tell when people are listening,
0:22:54 > 0:22:57you can tell when they're bored, by a sort of feel.
0:22:57 > 0:22:58Yes. And Max had it superbly.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01The Met at Edgware Road, do you remember it?
0:23:01 > 0:23:03It was wonderful. No.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Oh, there was a swish of the bar doors at the back
0:23:06 > 0:23:07when it was a boring bit.
0:23:07 > 0:23:13LAUGHTER
0:23:13 > 0:23:16Yes. That kind of life,
0:23:16 > 0:23:18that kind of theatre's gone now, sadly, hasn't it?
0:23:18 > 0:23:20Oh, it's so sad, it was wonderful.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22Isn't it still going on in the north?
0:23:22 > 0:23:25I believe it is. It is, but in clubs, and not in theatres.
0:23:25 > 0:23:26I've never been to a club.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28Oh, you must go along, you'd enjoy it, actually.
0:23:28 > 0:23:31It's not the same kind of thing at all.
0:23:31 > 0:23:33I mean, you don't have the promenade at the back,
0:23:33 > 0:23:35you don't have the bar at the back,
0:23:35 > 0:23:38and the drinks are there in the audience, you know? Yes.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40And the likelihood is that the audience gets drunk
0:23:40 > 0:23:42more quickly that way, but it still happens there,
0:23:42 > 0:23:44and you still get very, very big audiences there.
0:23:44 > 0:23:48Do people stop talking to one another, if the act is good?
0:23:48 > 0:23:52It depends how good the act is. I mean, they can get nasty,
0:23:52 > 0:23:54I mean, as it was, I think, I imagine,
0:23:54 > 0:23:56in the days of music hall when you were there.
0:23:56 > 0:23:59In the old music hall, I do remember people getting the bird,
0:23:59 > 0:24:02but only twice, I think.
0:24:02 > 0:24:07And then it was very painful, awful, agonising.
0:24:07 > 0:24:11Yes, yes. Sir John, can we now talk a little bit more just about
0:24:11 > 0:24:14your poetry? Because you're going to read another poem for us
0:24:14 > 0:24:16that you've set to music, or Jim Parker set to music,
0:24:16 > 0:24:22and this is called A Russell Flint.
0:24:22 > 0:24:28Now, what's the story behind A Russell Flint?
0:24:28 > 0:24:31I wanted a secretary,
0:24:31 > 0:24:35and I put in an advertisement when I was with a paper called
0:24:35 > 0:24:36Time and Tide, edited by Lady Rhondda.
0:24:36 > 0:24:38I once worked for that.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41Did you? Yes, I work for that, but a long time after Lady Rhondda,
0:24:41 > 0:24:44when it was run by a very nice man called John Thompson,
0:24:44 > 0:24:45was the editor of the time.
0:24:45 > 0:24:47Oh, well, you know how those things are very intimate.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49I used to write under assumed names,
0:24:49 > 0:24:52because I was working for another paper at the time.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54I had two names, it's true, I was blacklegging.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57When I wrote about the North, I was called Jack Braithwaite...
0:24:57 > 0:25:02THEY LAUGH
0:25:02 > 0:25:05..and when I sent stuff from abroad, I was called Warren Brady, Jr.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07LAUGHTER
0:25:07 > 0:25:08Jack or Warren, how marvellous!
0:25:08 > 0:25:11I'm sorry, I interrupted you. No, no, I'd forgotten about it!
0:25:11 > 0:25:14LAUGHTER
0:25:14 > 0:25:16You were talking about, you were working on Time and Tide,
0:25:16 > 0:25:19and you wanted a secretary. I wanted a secretary,
0:25:19 > 0:25:23and somebody came and replied to an advertisement,
0:25:23 > 0:25:26and she was so staggeringly beautiful, like Peggy Purey-Cust...
0:25:26 > 0:25:30LAUGHTER
0:25:30 > 0:25:33..that I was rather worried, for there I was, a married man,
0:25:33 > 0:25:35and happily married, and I thought,
0:25:35 > 0:25:39"I'd better not employ her,"
0:25:39 > 0:25:45the temptations to touch and kiss were too great.
0:25:45 > 0:25:47And I went to Lady Rhondda, and said,
0:25:47 > 0:25:49"What do you think I ought to do?" And she said,
0:25:49 > 0:25:52"Oh, always have the good-looking ones, they're much nicer
0:25:52 > 0:25:54"than anybody else, because people have been nice to them."
0:25:54 > 0:25:56MICHAEL LAUGHS
0:25:56 > 0:25:58That's a lovely thing to say, isn't it?
0:25:58 > 0:26:01And it was very good advice, it was a great success.
0:26:01 > 0:26:02It was a great success, was it?
0:26:02 > 0:26:04Yes, and now she's married and has children.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07She lives in Stratford-on-Avon.
0:26:07 > 0:26:09We have in fact a photograph of her, don't we?
0:26:09 > 0:26:12Have we got...? There she is, look, she is beautiful too, isn't she?
0:26:12 > 0:26:13Freckly Jill, yes.
0:26:13 > 0:26:17Freckly Jill!
0:26:17 > 0:26:21In fact, then, this poem, then, that we're going to hear now,
0:26:21 > 0:26:24is about that lady, it's called A Russell Flint, as I said,
0:26:24 > 0:26:26and it's Sir John Betjeman reading it,
0:26:26 > 0:26:31and the music put to the words is by Jim Parker.
0:26:34 > 0:26:44THEY PLAY REFLECTIVE MUSIC
0:27:01 > 0:27:06I could not speak for amazement at your beauty,
0:27:06 > 0:27:11As you came down the Garrick stair,
0:27:11 > 0:27:13Grey-green eyes like the turbulent Atlantic,
0:27:13 > 0:27:17And floppy schoolgirl hair.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21I could see you in a Sussex teashop,
0:27:21 > 0:27:25Dressed in peasant weave and brogues,
0:27:25 > 0:27:29Turning over as firelight shone on brassware,
0:27:29 > 0:27:35Last year's tea-stained Vogues.
0:27:35 > 0:27:39I could see you as a large-eyed student,
0:27:39 > 0:27:43Frowning as you tried to learn,
0:27:43 > 0:27:48Or head flung back, the confident girl prefect,
0:27:48 > 0:27:52Thrillingly kind and stern.
0:27:52 > 0:27:57I could not speak for amazement at your beauty,
0:27:57 > 0:28:00Yet when you spoke to me,
0:28:00 > 0:28:04You were calm and gentle as a rock pool,
0:28:04 > 0:28:08Waiting, warm, for the sea.
0:28:08 > 0:28:12Wave on wave, I plunged in them to meet you,
0:28:12 > 0:28:17In wave on wave I drown,
0:28:17 > 0:28:20Calm rock pool, on the shore of my security,
0:28:20 > 0:28:29Hold me when the tide goes down.
0:28:30 > 0:28:40STEEL GUITAR PLAYS
0:29:41 > 0:29:51APPLAUSE
0:30:00 > 0:30:03And that's from a second LP you made, called Late Flowering Love.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06You're getting quite a recording star, you know, Sir John,
0:30:06 > 0:30:08you really are. Oh, thank you very much.
0:30:08 > 0:30:10You'll be on Top Of The Pops next! LAUGHTER
0:30:10 > 0:30:13Sir John Betjeman, for the moment, thank you very much indeed.
0:30:13 > 0:30:14Sir John Betjeman.
0:30:14 > 0:30:24APPLAUSE
0:30:27 > 0:30:29Well, my next guest is one of the legendary figures
0:30:29 > 0:30:31of British show business.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33She was born above a fish and chip shop in Rochdale,
0:30:33 > 0:30:36went on to become the nation's sweetheart on stage, on record,
0:30:36 > 0:30:38in films and radio.
0:30:38 > 0:30:41Indeed, Parliament once adjourned because she was about to broadcast.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43She was once described as
0:30:43 > 0:30:45the greatest entertainer this country has ever produced,
0:30:45 > 0:30:47and if that assessment causes a few raised eyebrows,
0:30:47 > 0:30:49all I can say is that her doubters
0:30:49 > 0:30:52never saw and heard Grace Stansfield of Rochdale,
0:30:52 > 0:30:57who became to millions simply "Our Gracie", in movies like this.
0:30:57 > 0:31:01# Sing as we go and let the world go by
0:31:01 > 0:31:04# Singing a song, we march along the highway
0:31:04 > 0:31:07# Say goodbye to sorrow
0:31:07 > 0:31:11# There's always tomorrow to think of today
0:31:11 > 0:31:15# Sing as we go although the skies are grey
0:31:15 > 0:31:19# Beggar or king, you've got to sing a gay tune
0:31:19 > 0:31:21# A song and a smile make it right worthwhile
0:31:21 > 0:31:25# So sing
0:31:25 > 0:31:35# As we go along. #
0:31:35 > 0:31:38Hey, who are you shoving?!
0:31:38 > 0:31:40Ladies and gentlemen, Gracie Fields.
0:31:40 > 0:31:43APPLAUSE
0:31:43 > 0:31:53MUSIC: Sally
0:31:55 > 0:32:05APPLAUSE
0:32:16 > 0:32:17Thank you.
0:32:17 > 0:32:19I know I'm not Peggy.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22LAUGHTER
0:32:22 > 0:32:23You're not the type, are you, love?
0:32:23 > 0:32:26You don't know! No, that's for sure, yeah.
0:32:26 > 0:32:29I tell you what, you're a remarkable lady, you really are.
0:32:29 > 0:32:32You're 79 now, aren't you? Pushing 80.
0:32:32 > 0:32:34Pushing 80, yeah, amazing. Just about three months off, isn't it?
0:32:34 > 0:32:37It's ridiculous. It's too long, you shouldn't live that long, I think...
0:32:37 > 0:32:41LAUGHTER
0:32:41 > 0:32:43Just watching that there, I was talking to Sir John, actually,
0:32:43 > 0:32:45about that clip we saw there,
0:32:45 > 0:32:47it was the most extraordinary voice you had,
0:32:47 > 0:32:51wasn't it? It was a really remarkable instrument.
0:32:51 > 0:32:55I know, excuse me taking this off, I put it on for swank, so I'll just...
0:32:55 > 0:32:57You're stopping, are you? Yeah, I decided to stop.
0:32:57 > 0:32:59Very good. Thank you very much.
0:32:59 > 0:33:03Yeah. Well, I did have, I realise, I was playing a few of my old records.
0:33:03 > 0:33:09You know, I was making them so many years and years ago,
0:33:09 > 0:33:11and working so hard, in the theatre all the time,
0:33:11 > 0:33:14doing charity shows in the daytime, I never listened to a record.
0:33:14 > 0:33:16Only when I just passed it,
0:33:16 > 0:33:19when I made it, they'd say, "Is that all right?"
0:33:19 > 0:33:22"That's all right, I've done it," and I'd out the place.
0:33:22 > 0:33:23And I wouldn't listen to 'em.
0:33:23 > 0:33:26And recently I was listening to some with my husband,
0:33:26 > 0:33:29who was re-recording them and trying to bring out the sound of today,
0:33:29 > 0:33:32and I says, "You know, I was a bit extraordinary,
0:33:32 > 0:33:36"I've never heard a voice like that!"
0:33:36 > 0:33:39LAUGHTER
0:33:39 > 0:33:42I was really, I couldn't believe it, that I'd made those noises,
0:33:42 > 0:33:44it was just incredible. It was an operatic voice, wasn't it?
0:33:44 > 0:33:47I mean, you could have been an opera singer. It was, absolutely, yes.
0:33:47 > 0:33:50You never wanted to be an opera singer? Well, my mother
0:33:50 > 0:33:53wanted me to be an opera singer but we couldn't afford it.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56No. It cost money to have lessons and we needed the brass.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59Yes. So I did whatever we could do,
0:33:59 > 0:34:03I was doing high kicks and acrobats and what have you.
0:34:03 > 0:34:06But was it, really, I mean we're talking about 79 years ago now,
0:34:06 > 0:34:08in Rochdale, which in those days was...
0:34:08 > 0:34:11A mill town.
0:34:11 > 0:34:14A mill town.
0:34:14 > 0:34:16I mean, was it really a sort of clogs and shawl existence?
0:34:16 > 0:34:19Oh, yes, I've got the marks today on me ankles
0:34:19 > 0:34:21where me clogs used to just catch me ankles.
0:34:21 > 0:34:23You haven't? Yes, I have.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27Where? I'll show you, there's lines round there...
0:34:27 > 0:34:29You just wanted to look at me legs!
0:34:29 > 0:34:32LAUGHTER
0:34:32 > 0:34:35Sir John wanted to have a look, too.
0:34:35 > 0:34:38Yeah! Yeah, I wore clogs and shawls.
0:34:38 > 0:34:41It used to be awful in the winter time when it was snowing,
0:34:41 > 0:34:43because my mother sent me to the factory.
0:34:43 > 0:34:47I was on the stage, the first time, when I was seven years old,
0:34:47 > 0:34:49singing a singing competition.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52My mother always tried to find a house,
0:34:52 > 0:34:55if we didn't have one big enough,
0:34:55 > 0:34:59or we were rich enough to have one big enough to rent a couple of rooms
0:34:59 > 0:35:03to the theatricals that came to the old circus in Rochdale of that time.
0:35:03 > 0:35:07And she'd find another house that would face a house
0:35:07 > 0:35:10where they did take in professionals,
0:35:10 > 0:35:13and I used to sing up a little alleyway
0:35:13 > 0:35:16just by the side of our house.
0:35:16 > 0:35:20So this lady heard me singing, one of them, a woman called Lily Turner,
0:35:20 > 0:35:23and she said, "I want to put Grace into this singing competition."
0:35:23 > 0:35:26So she taught me to sing the song.
0:35:26 > 0:35:31I remember it, half of it, today, but anyway.
0:35:31 > 0:35:34What was the song? I was very...
0:35:34 > 0:35:37It was called What Makes Me Love You As I Do.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40What Makes Me Love You As I Do.
0:35:40 > 0:35:44But I couldn't say "what".
0:35:44 > 0:35:46I would sing...
0:35:46 > 0:35:49# Wot makes me love you as I do
0:35:49 > 0:35:55# Wot makes me think you're so divine, wot makes me long to...? #
0:35:55 > 0:35:58She said, "You must say, 'What, what!'"
0:35:58 > 0:36:02# Wot makes me love you as I do...? #
0:36:02 > 0:36:06And this went on till she was going crazy.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09So she said, "You must sing 'q-what.'"
0:36:09 > 0:36:12So I sang, # Q-what makes me love you as I do,
0:36:12 > 0:36:15# Q-what makes me think you're so divine,
0:36:15 > 0:36:18# Q-what makes me long to...? #
0:36:18 > 0:36:22And my q-whats won the competition, dear.
0:36:22 > 0:36:25Then you went to work with Lily Turner, this same woman, didn't you?
0:36:25 > 0:36:28Yeah, I went to sing to her a song from the gallery.
0:36:28 > 0:36:30She used to wear sort of short velvet short pants,
0:36:30 > 0:36:33with sort of a manly coat,
0:36:33 > 0:36:37it was a funny sort of dress, now you think of it back.
0:36:37 > 0:36:41She used to sing this song with such feeling, and I was singing it,
0:36:41 > 0:36:45again in a chorus, from the gallery.
0:36:45 > 0:36:50While I was singing it there was an old lady one time got very annoyed.
0:36:50 > 0:36:54She wanted to listen to the lady down on the stage and this child was
0:36:54 > 0:36:57singing this chorus, was annoying her,
0:36:57 > 0:37:00so she started to bash me with her umbrella.
0:37:00 > 0:37:04Well, I started crying
0:37:04 > 0:37:06and all that, so she wondered what was happening.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09So after then she put me on the stage to sing it.
0:37:09 > 0:37:12Yes. And then slowly I started doing a little single act around Rochdale,
0:37:12 > 0:37:18Castleton, Norden, any type of party that was going on, I was going.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21What kind of, what kind of venues were you playing, Gracie,
0:37:21 > 0:37:25in those days? Were they clubs or musicals, or what?
0:37:25 > 0:37:28No, no, no, they were sort of little charity shows
0:37:28 > 0:37:31that people were putting on all around Rochdale.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35I called myself the tuppenny pie queen because they used to pay me
0:37:35 > 0:37:38in tuppenny pies, meat pies they used to sell for tuppence.
0:37:38 > 0:37:40They're about ten and tuppence now, I think!
0:37:40 > 0:37:43LAUGHTER
0:37:43 > 0:37:46I ate so many tuppenny pies and took 'em home in me umbrella,
0:37:46 > 0:37:47where I could pinch a few,
0:37:47 > 0:37:51and took 'em home to the family so we all had tuppenny pies to death
0:37:51 > 0:37:53when there was another concert on somewhere.
0:37:53 > 0:37:54What about school at this time?
0:37:54 > 0:37:57My mother didn't think school was necessary.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00She's probably right, what a very wise woman.
0:38:00 > 0:38:04She kept me home and she said, "Oh, you'll find out when you grow up,
0:38:04 > 0:38:06"it'll all happen to you".
0:38:06 > 0:38:10But she had to go to school because they paid two pennies a week,
0:38:10 > 0:38:14which must have been very expensive when she was a child.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17But she didn't think it was necessary as far as I was concerned.
0:38:17 > 0:38:21I used to stay home while Mother used to go out and take laundry in
0:38:21 > 0:38:24or go and do a day's work at somebody's fine house.
0:38:24 > 0:38:28After I'd finished school, sometimes, I'd go from my school,
0:38:28 > 0:38:31find out where she'd gone and eat all the leftover rice puddings
0:38:31 > 0:38:34and things in the fine house and that kind of thing.
0:38:34 > 0:38:37But of course, you did go to school, didn't you?
0:38:37 > 0:38:40A little, yes. And you didn't much like it, did you?
0:38:40 > 0:38:42A bit. I loved school when I did go.
0:38:42 > 0:38:47When I joined a juvenile troupe, where there was six...
0:38:47 > 0:38:51The first juvenile troupe was the Nine Dainty Dots.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55They didn't bother with me going to school - or if I did go to school,
0:38:55 > 0:38:56each school in another town
0:38:56 > 0:38:59couldn't be bothered to teach this one child by herself,
0:38:59 > 0:39:02so they'd sit me on the side, on a seat, and give me a book,
0:39:02 > 0:39:05which I couldn't read -
0:39:05 > 0:39:09but I had to sit there until it was time to break loose
0:39:09 > 0:39:11and then get running back to my digs,
0:39:11 > 0:39:16to go and join the kids at night.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19I mean, the more you tell me about that,
0:39:19 > 0:39:22the more extraordinary it is that you became what you became.
0:39:22 > 0:39:25I mean, as I said, the biggest star in this country,
0:39:25 > 0:39:28I mean a superstar, the first, well, you were.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31Well, you never think of yourself as anything else but what you are.
0:39:31 > 0:39:33I never think of myself as a star.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35I know, I suppose - I know I have been around,
0:39:35 > 0:39:37but I never think of myself...
0:39:37 > 0:39:39I'm just the same as I've always been.
0:39:39 > 0:39:41But I wondered how it happened.
0:39:41 > 0:39:43How that girl from Rochdale eventually went to London,
0:39:43 > 0:39:46took London by storm, and then took the nation by storm?
0:39:46 > 0:39:49Because I was interested in other people on the stage, don't forget.
0:39:49 > 0:39:53I saw the different stars we worked with,
0:39:53 > 0:39:55and my mother used to write to me.
0:39:55 > 0:39:57She knew all about them, because she was stage-mad.
0:39:57 > 0:40:00She used to take in the performer and the stage, the papers,
0:40:00 > 0:40:02the theatre papers, and she'd write to me,
0:40:02 > 0:40:05"Next week you're on the stage with Gertie Gitana,
0:40:05 > 0:40:08"so don't forget to learn all her songs!"
0:40:08 > 0:40:10And I had to learn them,
0:40:10 > 0:40:13because I daren't go home if I didn't know them.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16So I had to get very friendly with the stage manager,
0:40:16 > 0:40:20if he would be kind enough and let me stand on the side of the stage,
0:40:20 > 0:40:23because they only allowed the children to stand on the stage,
0:40:23 > 0:40:26a few, one at a time and no more.
0:40:26 > 0:40:31So then I got friendly with the man who pulled up the curtains,
0:40:31 > 0:40:34up on the top of the lofts, and I used to go up there,
0:40:34 > 0:40:38"Please can I come up here?
0:40:38 > 0:40:40"I have got to learn Gertie Gitana's songs".
0:40:40 > 0:40:42So I'm up in the top,
0:40:42 > 0:40:45watching them pull the thing up and listen to her singing...
0:40:45 > 0:40:49# My sweet Iola
0:40:49 > 0:40:52# Iola, list to me...
0:40:52 > 0:40:55# Da, da, da... # I forgot the words!
0:40:55 > 0:40:57You can expect it at 80 - who cares?!
0:40:57 > 0:41:06APPLAUSE
0:41:06 > 0:41:08Nellie Dean... You were a fan of Gertie Gitana?
0:41:08 > 0:41:10Oh, yes. Yes. I remember her singing Nellie Dean.
0:41:10 > 0:41:12Nellie Dean.
0:41:12 > 0:41:14# By the old stream
0:41:14 > 0:41:16# By the stream, Nellie Dean... #
0:41:16 > 0:41:18Yes, she used to sing all those.
0:41:18 > 0:41:20You know, I had a very sad experience, for me,
0:41:20 > 0:41:23because I thought that she was the biggest star in the world
0:41:23 > 0:41:26when I was a child.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28I used to listen to her,
0:41:28 > 0:41:31even from the man who gets in the orchestra pit underneath the stage,
0:41:31 > 0:41:35I used to ask him, "Please can I keep your door open
0:41:35 > 0:41:36so I can learn her songs?"
0:41:36 > 0:41:40And... When I...
0:41:40 > 0:41:45went to a charity concert in Chelsea,
0:41:45 > 0:41:48it must have been about 25 years or 30 years ago,
0:41:48 > 0:41:51and I hear someone singing one of my songs,
0:41:51 > 0:41:56and it was Gertie Gitana mimicking me.
0:41:56 > 0:41:59I cried. I said, "Oh, that's not right, she's such a big star."
0:41:59 > 0:42:01Because to me she was still that big star
0:42:01 > 0:42:03and she shouldn't be mimicking me -
0:42:03 > 0:42:05I'm just Gracie Fields from Rochdale,
0:42:05 > 0:42:06but I couldn't feel...
0:42:06 > 0:42:09Amazing. It just upset me, really.
0:42:09 > 0:42:10You started off taking her off
0:42:10 > 0:42:12and she ended up taking you off. That's right,
0:42:12 > 0:42:15and she ended up sort of taking me off, it's very funny. Yeah.
0:42:15 > 0:42:17What did you feel like when you came down,
0:42:17 > 0:42:19this raw girl from Rochdale into London?
0:42:19 > 0:42:21I mean, it must've been a bit of a problem.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24Did you feel socially uneasy, in the world of London...? No -
0:42:24 > 0:42:29I don't think I ever bothered about anything at all.
0:42:29 > 0:42:33I'd been when I was a child in the juvenile troupes,
0:42:33 > 0:42:38and every time if I could go to a matinee and see a big star...
0:42:38 > 0:42:41Mother used to write and tell me to go and see Shirley Kellogg
0:42:41 > 0:42:44and different actresses and singers in London when I could get a chance,
0:42:44 > 0:42:50and I was always looking for somebody important.
0:42:50 > 0:42:53So she was really ramming all this stuff down my neck,
0:42:53 > 0:42:56and...give her an idea, so I was actually mimicking everybody.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59Yes. You also, at this time, 1928 or so,
0:42:59 > 0:43:01I mean, you cracked the London stage as well, didn't you?
0:43:01 > 0:43:02There must have been...
0:43:02 > 0:43:05you met Sir Gerald du Maurier, for instance, who employed you...
0:43:05 > 0:43:08Well... That must have been a certain amount of conflict there,
0:43:08 > 0:43:11between this sort of high-bred, rather posh fellow and you?
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Well, we were different people.
0:43:14 > 0:43:17We were ordinary people in heart, the same, you know what I mean?
0:43:17 > 0:43:21It didn't bother me.
0:43:21 > 0:43:24I said, "Oh, well, you..." When I went to the St James Theatre,
0:43:24 > 0:43:26the first thing I did was take my gramophone.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29I remember when I first bought my first gramophone,
0:43:29 > 0:43:32I was in Nottingham and I got to know the girl in a gramophone shop.
0:43:32 > 0:43:35So I said, "Would you give me some very good records?
0:43:35 > 0:43:39"I want classical ones."
0:43:39 > 0:43:43So she gave me a bunch of Caruso, Galli-Curci and different people.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47Well, I took those records home and I was in a dream,
0:43:47 > 0:43:49listening to this... wonderful voices.
0:43:49 > 0:43:52And I used to mimic them, I used to sing
0:43:52 > 0:44:00all these things that Caruso used to sing.
0:44:00 > 0:44:03STRIDENT OPERA SINGING
0:44:03 > 0:44:05You know, I'd get the voice out.
0:44:05 > 0:44:07It reminds me, just before I came here,
0:44:07 > 0:44:11on Sunday, when we started off from Naples...
0:44:11 > 0:44:13..we had a taxi man.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16So he was very puzzled at Boris sitting next to him
0:44:16 > 0:44:19and a friend of mine who plays the piano for me -
0:44:19 > 0:44:21Teddy Holmes, you must know him...
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Yes. ..he was sitting next to me, and the driver was talking to Boris,
0:44:24 > 0:44:27we come to... "These people are speaking English behind here
0:44:27 > 0:44:30"and you're speaking the dialect of Naples."
0:44:30 > 0:44:35So he must have said something, "Oh, well, she sings," or something.
0:44:35 > 0:44:37So I started...
0:44:37 > 0:44:40# Vide'o mare quant'e bello
0:44:40 > 0:44:42# Spira tantu sentimento
0:44:42 > 0:44:48# Comme tu a chi tiene mente... #
0:44:48 > 0:44:52and this man started going mad, "Ah, wonderful!"
0:44:52 > 0:44:54He forgot to drive and he started to conduct...
0:44:54 > 0:44:57LAUGHTER ..all the way to the station.
0:44:57 > 0:45:01Teddy and Boris were scared to death!
0:45:01 > 0:45:04But I finished it outright to the end when I got to the station.
0:45:04 > 0:45:06Gracie, of course, lives abroad now all the time.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09Could you do that, could you live abroad, anywhere else? I don't know,
0:45:09 > 0:45:11I only like living in England.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13But why's that? I can't understand the language anywhere else.
0:45:13 > 0:45:15LAUGHTER
0:45:15 > 0:45:18I don't, it's all right, I just get through, you know?
0:45:18 > 0:45:21It's Lancashire Italian.
0:45:21 > 0:45:25But I get all I want. If I want to know what's going on in the kitchen,
0:45:25 > 0:45:28I always say I'm either starring or charring, I can't keep still,
0:45:28 > 0:45:31so I do a bit of cooking one day, I do a bit of fiddling around,
0:45:31 > 0:45:34cleaning and playing in the garden.
0:45:34 > 0:45:37I find so many things to do.
0:45:37 > 0:45:41But you'd just feel totally an alien then, would you?
0:45:41 > 0:45:43Yes, I very much like Italian people,
0:45:43 > 0:45:46they're very kind and very good with children
0:45:46 > 0:45:49and very cheerful, but, oh, the noise they make!
0:45:49 > 0:45:52You prefer more quiet?
0:45:52 > 0:45:55I like things quiet, yes.
0:45:55 > 0:45:58What about - you've lived all your life, of course, down here,
0:45:58 > 0:46:00haven't you, in the south? Yes.
0:46:00 > 0:46:02I say down here like it was a southern state of America
0:46:02 > 0:46:04or something, but there is, we all know,
0:46:04 > 0:46:06this north and south divide in Britain, still.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09In fact, you've not discovered the north until recently, have you?
0:46:09 > 0:46:10Quite lately, yes.
0:46:10 > 0:46:14And you like it, don't you? Very much indeed - and the Isle of Man.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16The Isle of Man you like. Very fond of that.
0:46:16 > 0:46:18I've never been there. Oh, it's nice.
0:46:18 > 0:46:21You don't say! The one place I've never been, to the Isle of Man.
0:46:21 > 0:46:22Oh, it's beautiful. Yes.
0:46:22 > 0:46:24What do you like, specifically, about the North?
0:46:24 > 0:46:26People speak directly - and Coronation Street.
0:46:26 > 0:46:30LAUGHTER
0:46:30 > 0:46:32What, do you like...?! You like Coronation Street?
0:46:32 > 0:46:33Yes, it's my favourite programme.
0:46:33 > 0:46:36LAUGHTER Is it really?!
0:46:36 > 0:46:38I enjoyed it, I saw it this week
0:46:38 > 0:46:40and I haven't seen it for such a long time,
0:46:40 > 0:46:42and it takes me right back to Rochdale.
0:46:42 > 0:46:44How marvellous. It's a lovely feeling
0:46:44 > 0:46:46of everybody knows everybody,
0:46:46 > 0:46:48we all interfere with everybody's business,
0:46:48 > 0:46:51we all want to know everything -
0:46:51 > 0:46:54but I find that Capri people are the same in Capri.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56All the Capresi, they all know everything,
0:46:56 > 0:46:58they all want to know the tittle-tattle about everybody,
0:46:58 > 0:47:00but they're one family,
0:47:00 > 0:47:03and I feel that the Lancashire people are like that,
0:47:03 > 0:47:05Yorkshire people up north are very much together.
0:47:05 > 0:47:15Much closer than they are down south.
0:47:21 > 0:47:22That's typical. What do you like -
0:47:22 > 0:47:24who's your favourite character in Coronation Street?
0:47:24 > 0:47:26I'm hard put to it to say.
0:47:26 > 0:47:27I'm very fond of Mrs Walker, and...
0:47:27 > 0:47:30Oh, I think Doris Speed, the actress who plays her, is fantastic.
0:47:30 > 0:47:32Yes. I think really incredible.
0:47:32 > 0:47:33..and Stan Ogden and his wife, Hilda...
0:47:33 > 0:47:34LAUGHTER
0:47:34 > 0:47:37You like the curlers, do you? ..I'm very fond of -
0:47:37 > 0:47:39and I like Ken Barlow, as a cultivated contrast,
0:47:39 > 0:47:41and I'm very fond of that very...
0:47:41 > 0:47:44..pushy one that is going to do very well in business, Mike Baldwin.
0:47:44 > 0:47:45Oh, yes. Who lately appeared.
0:47:45 > 0:47:46What about Albert Tatlock?
0:47:46 > 0:47:48He's wonderful. He is wonderful, isn't he?
0:47:48 > 0:47:49He must have been on the holes.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51I don't know if he was, actually.
0:47:51 > 0:47:54You know he lives in the Midland Hotel in Manchester?
0:47:54 > 0:47:56I heard that, very nice.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59Now, you know that Ena Sharples speaks posh, don't you?
0:47:59 > 0:48:01Does she? Mm. Well, not posh, but, I mean, it's sort of...
0:48:01 > 0:48:03POSH ACCENT: But she's refined. Yes! Really?
0:48:03 > 0:48:06LAUGHTER
0:48:06 > 0:48:09Oh, well, we can all be refined, you know, just the same.
0:48:09 > 0:48:10That's right, yes.
0:48:10 > 0:48:13You were talking earlier, Gracie, about filming.
0:48:13 > 0:48:15I mean, you had a spectacular film career.
0:48:15 > 0:48:19You were, in the '30s here, you were the biggest film star in Britain.
0:48:19 > 0:48:21You also went to Hollywood, too, didn't you?
0:48:21 > 0:48:22Yeah. But didn't like it.
0:48:22 > 0:48:27Well, I didn't like making films at all in the beginning. You didn't.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30I couldn't stand it, cos you're waiting around
0:48:30 > 0:48:33and doing nothing and when you do say something
0:48:33 > 0:48:36you've said, "Good morning, George" all day and it drives you crazy -
0:48:36 > 0:48:39and then when they lock the gate when they've got you in,
0:48:39 > 0:48:42I always felt I was imprisoned and I can't get out of this place.
0:48:42 > 0:48:46Yes. But I could get out of a theatre, I never thought of that -
0:48:46 > 0:48:48I mean, I got through the stage door.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50Yes. That's always open, I always felt, morning, noon and night...
0:48:50 > 0:48:53Yes. ..but the film studio, I'd see them close that gate,
0:48:53 > 0:48:57"They've got me, I'm stuck now for the day."
0:48:57 > 0:48:59Yes...but you must have met - when you were in Hollywood,
0:48:59 > 0:49:01you must have met some extraordinary people,
0:49:01 > 0:49:04people who you admired on the screen? Oh, yes, quite a lot.
0:49:04 > 0:49:06I did one or two good films.
0:49:06 > 0:49:08You did, I remember them. But not much.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11Do you? Yes, I was a film critic in those days.
0:49:11 > 0:49:12Oh, you were. Did you review Gracie?
0:49:12 > 0:49:14I think probably, yes.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16Yes? I remember that one we saw...
0:49:16 > 0:49:18what was the song in it? Well...
0:49:18 > 0:49:21I remember... Sing As We Go. Sing As We Go.
0:49:21 > 0:49:24Sing As We Go, that's it. That was done in England. Yes.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26But most of those stories
0:49:26 > 0:49:29were kind of written around me for some reason -
0:49:29 > 0:49:32they weren't real stories to start off with.
0:49:32 > 0:49:34The first film I ever made was Sally. Oh, yes.
0:49:34 > 0:49:38Now, that was written properly as a play, and it was a very good play.
0:49:38 > 0:49:41Well, you had something to play with.
0:49:41 > 0:49:45The others were all stitched up around five or six songs.
0:49:45 > 0:49:46"Get six songs ready, Grace,
0:49:46 > 0:49:48"because you're going to make a film,"
0:49:48 > 0:49:51and then it was just stitched up.
0:49:51 > 0:49:55Now, when I went to Hollywood and I did the one by Arnold Bennett,
0:49:55 > 0:49:59Buried Alive it was called, the book, it was called...
0:49:59 > 0:50:00What was it called?
0:50:00 > 0:50:03Holy Matrimony. Holy Matrimony, that's right, yes.
0:50:03 > 0:50:06It was a joy to do that without a song in it
0:50:06 > 0:50:09because you'd real words to say that the author enjoyed writing...
0:50:09 > 0:50:11Mm. ..and then you enjoyed saying them,
0:50:11 > 0:50:13and it was something to do -
0:50:13 > 0:50:16but when they stitched around you, you know,
0:50:16 > 0:50:21they don't come up quite the same, the stories were not good.
0:50:21 > 0:50:24Of course, in fact JB Priestley wrote a couple of films for you,
0:50:24 > 0:50:27didn't he? Yeah - well, he did the Sing As We Go.
0:50:27 > 0:50:29That's right, yes. You met him, did you?
0:50:29 > 0:50:30Yes, oh, yes. Well, you obviously did.
0:50:30 > 0:50:32He came, yes, he came with Basil Dean.
0:50:32 > 0:50:34They talked about the story and doing these things.
0:50:34 > 0:50:38I said, "Well, I think it's going to be a kind of a popular thing
0:50:38 > 0:50:44"and it might make money and be all that."
0:50:44 > 0:50:46He says, "Well, we don't like to think about money."
0:50:46 > 0:50:48I said, "Well, what are we working for?"
0:50:48 > 0:50:51LAUGHTER
0:50:51 > 0:50:54That was Priestley said that? Yeah. "We don't like to think of money"?
0:50:54 > 0:50:57Yes. You've never been afflicted by that, have you, Sir John,
0:50:57 > 0:50:59the thought that art should not make money? No. No.
0:50:59 > 0:51:01No, I think not, no.
0:51:01 > 0:51:03It always amazed me if it ever has.
0:51:03 > 0:51:04Yes, yes.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07But it's a nice end product if it does?
0:51:07 > 0:51:11I think it's an extra, kindly supplied by the management.
0:51:11 > 0:51:13Can I ask you, finally, the two of you
0:51:13 > 0:51:23who've lived long and many years in this country,
0:51:23 > 0:51:25what's disturbed you coming from what you did,
0:51:25 > 0:51:29from an Edwardian background into the present time?
0:51:29 > 0:51:31Motorcars, I think, have made things much worse.
0:51:31 > 0:51:32That's another thing, yes.
0:51:32 > 0:51:34I think people go mad when they get inside motorcars
0:51:34 > 0:51:35and become quite like fiends.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37I know I do myself.
0:51:37 > 0:51:38LAUGHTER People forget to walk.
0:51:38 > 0:51:40Yes. I got rid of my car when I was 70.
0:51:40 > 0:51:42I said, "I'm going to walk!"
0:51:42 > 0:51:44How marvellous!
0:51:44 > 0:51:50Up those hills in Rochdale, very steep!
0:51:50 > 0:51:51Up those hills, in Capri, too!
0:51:51 > 0:51:53Of course, you know Rochdale, don't you?
0:51:53 > 0:51:54Yes. Lovely place.
0:51:54 > 0:51:57Rochdale, we had a great-grandfather who lived until he was 103
0:51:57 > 0:52:03and when he was 100 they gave him some special prizes
0:52:03 > 0:52:05and they said... So he had free tram rides,
0:52:05 > 0:52:07so he killed himself, my father said,
0:52:07 > 0:52:09by having free tram rides,
0:52:09 > 0:52:11he never walked after he got that prize!
0:52:11 > 0:52:21LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:52:22 > 0:52:25"He died of goodwill" should be the epitaph for that gentleman!
0:52:25 > 0:52:26Now, we're going to,
0:52:26 > 0:52:29you're not going to go away without singing for us,
0:52:29 > 0:52:33and you're going to sing, I hope... do you remember Grace's comic ones?
0:52:33 > 0:52:34Yes.
0:52:34 > 0:52:37What about the Aspidistra one?
0:52:37 > 0:52:39The Biggest Aspidistra. Oh, no!
0:52:39 > 0:52:40You must be sick of singing that one!
0:52:40 > 0:52:43I'm sick of singing it, sick of hearing it!
0:52:43 > 0:52:45Are you? Yeah!
0:52:45 > 0:52:47But if you want it... What was the story about it, Gracie,
0:52:47 > 0:52:49the sort of background to it?
0:52:49 > 0:52:52Well, just a man who brought all these songs to me for many years,
0:52:52 > 0:52:54he brought one along -
0:52:54 > 0:52:56but when I went to America
0:52:56 > 0:53:01I remember we were doing a very big...
0:53:01 > 0:53:06a three-hour marathon radio show for charity,
0:53:06 > 0:53:09so I was on this show doing three songs, which I did, and...
0:53:09 > 0:53:15Bob Hope was the MC.
0:53:15 > 0:53:18He said, "We're ten minutes short, have you got another song?"
0:53:18 > 0:53:20I said, "Yes, but they wouldn't understand it."
0:53:20 > 0:53:22He says, "What is it?" I says, "The Aspidistra."
0:53:22 > 0:53:24He says, "What's that?"
0:53:24 > 0:53:26He'd forgotten because he'd been in America too long.
0:53:26 > 0:53:29He says, "Well, never mind, sing it."
0:53:29 > 0:53:33Well, when I sang it I really caused a sensation,
0:53:33 > 0:53:35because the aspidistra has a different meaning to the Americans
0:53:35 > 0:53:37than it has for us.
0:53:37 > 0:53:40LAUGHTER
0:53:40 > 0:53:42It's got a different meaning for me
0:53:42 > 0:53:43than I suspect it does for you, but...
0:53:43 > 0:53:46Well, it always meant a plant,
0:53:46 > 0:53:48the aspidistra plant, and all up north
0:53:48 > 0:53:51I think everybody has an aspidistra plant.
0:53:51 > 0:53:54I know my grandmother used to have one, my mother had one,
0:53:54 > 0:54:01my grandmother used to put paper flowers in between them.
0:54:01 > 0:54:03Well, our MV Mr Harry Stoneham is waiting over there, Gracie.
0:54:03 > 0:54:06Oh, well. So if you want to cross there.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08Gracie Fields. # Put your shoes on, Lucy... #
0:54:08 > 0:54:16APPLAUSE
0:54:16 > 0:54:17Well, well, well.
0:54:17 > 0:54:20We've got the music, we hope for the best.
0:54:20 > 0:54:21I hope I remember it.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24Right.
0:54:26 > 0:54:30# For years we had an aspidistra in a flowerpot
0:54:30 > 0:54:34# On the whatnot near the hatstand in the hall
0:54:34 > 0:54:38# Well, it didn't seem to grow till one day our brother Joe
0:54:38 > 0:54:44# Had a notion that he'd make it strong and tall
0:54:44 > 0:54:49# So he crossed it with an acorn from an oak tree
0:54:49 > 0:54:54# And he planted it against the garden wall
0:54:54 > 0:54:58# Well, it shot up like a rocket till it nearly reached the sky
0:54:58 > 0:55:05# It's the biggest aspidistra in the world.
0:55:05 > 0:55:08# We couldn't see the top of it it got so blooming high
0:55:08 > 0:55:14# It's the biggest aspidistra in the world
0:55:14 > 0:55:18# When father's had a snootful at his pub, The Bunch Of Grapes
0:55:18 > 0:55:23# He doesn't go all fighting mad and getting into scrapes
0:55:23 > 0:55:28# You'll find him in his bearskin playing Tarzan Of The Apes
0:55:28 > 0:55:34# Up the biggest aspidistra in the world
0:55:34 > 0:55:37# The pussycats and their sweethearts
0:55:37 > 0:55:40# Love to spend their evenings out
0:55:40 > 0:55:45# Up the biggest aspidistra in the world
0:55:45 > 0:55:49# They all begin meowing when the buds begin to sprout
0:55:49 > 0:55:54# From the biggest aspidistra in the world
0:55:54 > 0:56:00# The dogs all come around for miles, a lovely sight to see
0:56:00 > 0:56:05# They sniff around for hours and hours and wag their tails with glee
0:56:05 > 0:56:10# So I've had to put a notice up to say it's not a tree
0:56:10 > 0:56:16# It's the biggest aspidistra in the world. #
0:56:16 > 0:56:19# I could have danced all night. #
0:56:19 > 0:56:29APPLAUSE
0:56:43 > 0:56:46SHE WHISTLES
0:56:46 > 0:56:48Stop.
0:56:48 > 0:56:50Did you enjoy that, Sir John?
0:56:50 > 0:56:51Oh, I did, every moment.
0:56:51 > 0:56:53You liked the lyric? Yes.
0:56:53 > 0:56:55Who wrote it?
0:56:55 > 0:56:58It was Bill Haynes... Clever man.
0:56:58 > 0:57:00..and somebody else. There were always three or four names,
0:57:00 > 0:57:02because they used to join in.
0:57:02 > 0:57:04I don't know how much they put in in each one,
0:57:04 > 0:57:07but there were always three or four names it,
0:57:07 > 0:57:08but Bill Haynes had this little music shop,
0:57:08 > 0:57:12and he was a consul, too, for Haiti.
0:57:12 > 0:57:16He was really a funny Cockney, a real Cockney.
0:57:16 > 0:57:19He used to say, "Grace, I've got a lovely number for you now.
0:57:19 > 0:57:22"This is the best you've ever had. Now I'll sing it for you."
0:57:22 > 0:57:25He says, "Wait a minute, I'll get up," and he'd say, "Now....
0:57:25 > 0:57:27"Walter and me, we've been courting for years,
0:57:27 > 0:57:29"but he's never asked me to wed.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32"When leap year comes round I'll give three hearty cheers,
0:57:32 > 0:57:36"hooray, because I do the asking instead."
0:57:36 > 0:57:38And he used to go on with that.
0:57:38 > 0:57:41And then another time he came and he said he got this Sally
0:57:41 > 0:57:44which I was talking about, and I wondered where he got it,
0:57:44 > 0:57:46but we found out, and it worked out fine.
0:57:46 > 0:57:48That was by Haynes, was it?
0:57:48 > 0:57:51Yes, he was part of the Sally song.
0:57:51 > 0:57:52He might well become our favourite lyricist
0:57:52 > 0:57:55after Cole Porter and Lorenz Hart. Yes.
0:57:55 > 0:57:57Bill Haynes. Yes.
0:57:57 > 0:58:00I thought he was going to write one for Peggy, you see.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03He should have done, shouldn't he?
0:58:03 > 0:58:06Mm. I mean... He should have written that one, yes.
0:58:06 > 0:58:09He should have written a love song for Peggy, yes.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11# Isn't it bliss
0:58:11 > 0:58:14# How we're a pair?
0:58:14 > 0:58:17# Me here at last on the ground
0:58:17 > 0:58:21# You in midair... #
0:58:21 > 0:58:23SHE HUMS THE MELODY
0:58:23 > 0:58:24That's Stephen Sondheim.
0:58:24 > 0:58:26# Where are the clowns...? #
0:58:26 > 0:58:28APPLAUSE
0:58:28 > 0:58:35Did you see that show?
0:58:35 > 0:58:41No. Send In The Clowns.
0:58:41 > 0:58:44Yes, of course. A Little Night Music, the show is called.
0:58:44 > 0:58:46A Little Night Music, yes. Written by a man called Stephen Sondheim.
0:58:46 > 0:58:49Lovely. The one thing that discernible from people like you,
0:58:49 > 0:58:51great stars, the one thing that separates you from the rest,
0:58:51 > 0:58:55actually, is your energy, your boundless, boundless energy.
0:58:55 > 0:58:57Well, you can't keep me still.
0:58:57 > 0:58:59I got that from my mother, I guess.
0:58:59 > 0:59:03It's God-given, anyway. Gracie Fields, you're still a great star,
0:59:03 > 0:59:05and thank you very much for being our guest tonight.
0:59:05 > 0:59:08Thank you very much for asking me. I enjoyed it immensely.
0:59:08 > 0:59:09Bless you. Nice to meet you.
0:59:09 > 0:59:16APPLAUSE
0:59:16 > 0:59:20Sir John, as always, a pleasure to have you on my show.
0:59:20 > 0:59:24Thank you very much indeed. I think he's lovely.
0:59:24 > 0:59:26I wish I'd been his Elsie.
0:59:26 > 0:59:35APPLAUSE
0:59:35 > 0:59:39I'm six years older than Doris, but I don't even look older.
0:59:39 > 0:59:42He's only 71! He is only 71.
0:59:42 > 0:59:43Well, thank you, Warren. Warren!
0:59:43 > 0:59:45LAUGHTER
0:59:45 > 0:59:47I'll give you Warren.
0:59:47 > 0:59:49Thank you, both of you.
0:59:49 > 0:59:51Till same time... Thank you, Christopher Robin.
0:59:51 > 0:59:53That's right. Till the same time next week, goodnight.
0:59:53 > 1:00:03APPLAUSE