0:00:04 > 0:00:06Hello, everyone.
0:00:06 > 0:00:10Some time ago, we televised a play called Adventure Story
0:00:10 > 0:00:13in which the hero became a film stuntman and, incidentally,
0:00:13 > 0:00:16he got very badly hurt while stunting.
0:00:16 > 0:00:17That, of course, was only fiction
0:00:17 > 0:00:20but as you were all so very interested in the play
0:00:20 > 0:00:22I thought perhaps you might like to meet
0:00:22 > 0:00:23some real-life stunt people.
0:00:23 > 0:00:25I've invited along, to meet you,
0:00:25 > 0:00:28Steve Donoghue and his partner Connie Tilton.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30I met Steve on Caesar and Cleopatra,
0:00:30 > 0:00:35when I was thrown off a parapet by Cecil Parker and Basil Sydney.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39- Yes, I remember that, and quite a parapet too.- Yes, it was 30 feet.
0:00:39 > 0:00:42I remember one time I nearly missed and I saw the rocks down below.
0:00:42 > 0:00:46I just turned on my side in time and hit the water.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48Good for you.
0:00:48 > 0:00:49And any other stars you've doubled?
0:00:49 > 0:00:52Yes, I doubled Ann Todd in The Seventh Veil.
0:00:52 > 0:00:56I jumped off Hammersmith Bridge and Richmond Bridge in a nightgown.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58- Winter or summer? - Winter, a February morning.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00Oh, good heavens. I see, well, look,
0:01:00 > 0:01:03if, by some extraordinary coincidence,
0:01:03 > 0:01:06we had a flight of stairs at the other end of the studio
0:01:06 > 0:01:08would you fall down them for us?
0:01:16 > 0:01:20Well, I'd rather have my job than hers!
0:02:05 > 0:02:07So for the past two weeks, we've opened our programme
0:02:07 > 0:02:09with news of Joan Crawford
0:02:09 > 0:02:11and her visit to this country.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13It's a proud moment for Picture Parade
0:02:13 > 0:02:16because Joan Crawford has joined us tonight
0:02:16 > 0:02:20to tell us a little about herself, to talk too about her new picture.
0:02:20 > 0:02:23I should tell you, it's her first appearance on television ever.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26- Welcome, Joan.- Hi, Peter, how are you?- You're not frightened, are you?
0:02:26 > 0:02:28- Yes, I'm scared.- Really?- Yes.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30Joan, there are thousands of things I want to ask you
0:02:30 > 0:02:34and I don't know where to start. First of all, let's take glamour.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37Will you tell me what is your recipe for it?
0:02:37 > 0:02:39- Just live.- Just live?
0:02:39 > 0:02:42- Yes.- Simple as that?
0:02:42 > 0:02:46Live with a lovely family, raising children.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49I don't mean live gloriously
0:02:49 > 0:02:54and make every day the 4th of July, I mean just live.
0:02:54 > 0:02:56A perfectly ordinary life.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59Tell me something about the young people of today because
0:02:59 > 0:03:03I know you are interested in young people and encouraging them?
0:03:03 > 0:03:07Yes, I certainly am, not because we want to find new faces,
0:03:07 > 0:03:09because we always want to be there too.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11Yes, I know.
0:03:12 > 0:03:15It's just that you like to give, what shall I say,
0:03:15 > 0:03:18a bit of encouragement when you can.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21When you find a talent, you take it to a director and you say,
0:03:21 > 0:03:26"Look, I've found a lovely, lovely girl here or a talented boy here" -
0:03:26 > 0:03:29you can't say lovely boy -
0:03:29 > 0:03:31You can, but it isn't nice.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33Yes.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37So they take tests, the director, if they believe in the talent
0:03:37 > 0:03:40and if they believe in your word.
0:03:40 > 0:03:45Today we chose the most lovely, beautiful child in the whole world,
0:03:45 > 0:03:47except my own four children.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49Yes, who is she?
0:03:49 > 0:03:51Miss Heather Sears.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58Heather Sears, meet our viewers and congratulations
0:03:58 > 0:04:02on all our behalves on getting this rather wonderful part.
0:04:02 > 0:04:03Thank you very much.
0:04:03 > 0:04:05What do you have to do in the film?
0:04:05 > 0:04:09I should say first of all I have to be a great pantomimist.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12What exactly is that, now?
0:04:12 > 0:04:14You've got to use your fingers a lot to...
0:04:14 > 0:04:18Yes, I have to...
0:04:18 > 0:04:22I have to communicate with my hands.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24And you aren't allowed to talk?
0:04:24 > 0:04:25And with your eyes.
0:04:25 > 0:04:27With my eyes but not my voice
0:04:27 > 0:04:30because Esther Costello is a blind mute.
0:04:30 > 0:04:32My goodness me.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34You've got a lot of work put in both of you, haven't you?
0:04:34 > 0:04:37- Yes, we do.- Yes, we have. - We'll work together well.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39I'm sure we will.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42Before you go, how you both getting on with the film so far?
0:04:42 > 0:04:46- You haven't actually started, have you?- No, but we will.
0:04:46 > 0:04:49- In a few days' time.- Yes. - Bless you both. Thank you so much.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52Before you go, I just want one little thing, before you do leave.
0:04:52 > 0:04:54Thank you very much indeed.
0:04:55 > 0:05:00With our compliments, Joan Crawford, and thank you for joining us.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03- Thank you.- And Heather, likewise. - Thank you very much indeed.
0:05:03 > 0:05:04Good luck in the picture.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07Thank you for joining us on Picture Parade tonight.
0:05:08 > 0:05:11- You know you're going to be great. - Thank you.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15Miss Davis, you began your career in the theatre.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17Did you intend to stay in the theatre
0:05:17 > 0:05:20or did you just look at it as training for the films?
0:05:20 > 0:05:23No, I actually started in the theatre to be in the theatre.
0:05:23 > 0:05:27Because, of course, when I started in theatre, we had silent pictures.
0:05:27 > 0:05:30I don't think any theatre people had any idea what would happen
0:05:30 > 0:05:33- when sound came in, as we say.- Yes.
0:05:33 > 0:05:35It was a complete revolution, actually
0:05:35 > 0:05:39because then they did need actors trained for the theatre
0:05:39 > 0:05:41because of the sound.
0:05:41 > 0:05:46So then there was an enormous trek to Hollywood by practically...
0:05:46 > 0:05:49they signed practically all of us as tests,
0:05:49 > 0:05:51to see who would work there or not.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53Did you go into films
0:05:53 > 0:05:55because you felt there was more scope for an actress
0:05:55 > 0:05:58in films than in the theatre?
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Well, I look back and I don't know.
0:06:00 > 0:06:05I guess I felt it was an opportunity that I, as a very young person,
0:06:05 > 0:06:08couldn't afford to miss, probably.
0:06:08 > 0:06:10- I didn't go with great anticipation. - You didn't?
0:06:10 > 0:06:15No, not at all but I felt I was probably very fortunate
0:06:15 > 0:06:16and I should give it a try.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18Did you enjoy the change at the beginning?
0:06:18 > 0:06:21No, I had a very difficult time in the beginning.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23I was not welcomed with open arms.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27As a matter of fact I arrived in the Los Angeles station
0:06:27 > 0:06:32and had been told I would be met by the Universal officials,
0:06:32 > 0:06:36which was my studio, and no-one was there to meet me at all.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38So we kind of staggered to the hotel,
0:06:38 > 0:06:41finding our way around, my mother and I.
0:06:41 > 0:06:42I called the studio and said,
0:06:42 > 0:06:45"Why wasn't anyone there to meet me?"
0:06:45 > 0:06:47And they said, "We didn't see anyone get off the train
0:06:47 > 0:06:49"who looked like an actress."
0:06:49 > 0:06:52You starred with some very distinguished leading men,
0:06:52 > 0:06:54what are the qualities you would consider the most important
0:06:54 > 0:06:57in a leading man?
0:06:57 > 0:07:00Well, I think, that he is a good actor.
0:07:00 > 0:07:03He's a good actor
0:07:03 > 0:07:06and I must say it's enormous help to me if he enjoys acting
0:07:06 > 0:07:12because this makes the film a much happier thing to make.
0:07:12 > 0:07:16Would you say it's important to like somebody you're playing with
0:07:16 > 0:07:18off-screen or do you...
0:07:18 > 0:07:22No, I think one would be very limited to think that way.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26I think that's nothing to do with it whatsoever.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29I think the talent is the whole thing.
0:07:29 > 0:07:34Many sort of unpleasant people are very talented.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37One would limit oneself very much, I think,
0:07:37 > 0:07:40if one cared how much one liked somebody personally.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45We look to the first Olympic meeting of modern times,
0:07:45 > 0:07:47held in Athens in 1896.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50Only a handful of British competitors took part
0:07:50 > 0:07:57in the games of 64 years ago and, as far as we know, only one survives.
0:07:57 > 0:08:00He is Sir George Stuart Robertson who represented this country
0:08:00 > 0:08:03in the discus, putting the weight and lawn tennis.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07- In those days, there was no official British entry was there, at all?- No.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09Did this mean that anybody could take part,
0:08:09 > 0:08:11as long as he had the fare to Athens?
0:08:11 > 0:08:16Everybody went out on their own, and nobody asked us to go.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20- Did individuals have to qualify in any way at all?- No, not at all.
0:08:20 > 0:08:23How many British competitors were there in the 1896 games?
0:08:23 > 0:08:24About six, I should say.
0:08:24 > 0:08:28You represented this country at putting the weight and the discus
0:08:28 > 0:08:31and lawn tennis, I believe.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34- Now which of those were you best at? - I wasn't very good at any of them.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37Hammer was my speciality and there wasn't any hammer.
0:08:37 > 0:08:41So in fact, you threw a discus instead, did you?
0:08:41 > 0:08:43I threw a discus
0:08:43 > 0:08:46and put the weight as being the only things there were to throw.
0:08:46 > 0:08:49How, in fact, did you make out in it, did you do well?
0:08:49 > 0:08:51No, not at all well.
0:08:51 > 0:08:53How well-organised were they?
0:08:53 > 0:08:55They weren't organised at all.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57You see the Greeks had had no experience whatever
0:08:57 > 0:09:01of running an athletic meeting.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04The thing was happy-go-lucky from start to finish.
0:09:04 > 0:09:08That's what made it so entertaining, it was a most amusing meeting.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10A final question, Sir George, do you wish you were in Rome now?
0:09:10 > 0:09:16No, I do not. I once threw a hammer in America at 104 in the shade,
0:09:16 > 0:09:19I wouldn't say I'd go to Rome at 106.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21Thank you very much indeed, Sir George.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28I won the Olympic gold medal in Rome, Italy. Olympic champion.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31The Russian standing right here and the Pole right here.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33- Is Poland considered a Communist country?- Yes.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37I'm defeating America's so-called threats and enemies.
0:09:37 > 0:09:38And the flag is going
0:09:38 > 0:09:41ton-ton-ton-ton-ton
0:09:41 > 0:09:44ton-ton-ton-ton-ton.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46I'm standing so proud.
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Ton-ton-ton-ton.
0:09:49 > 0:09:54And I'd have whupped the world for America. Ton-ton-ton-ton-ton.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56I took my gold medal, I thought I'd invented something.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59I said, "Man, I know how I'm going to get my people free."
0:09:59 > 0:10:00I'm the champion of the whole world.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03Olympic champion, I know I can eat downtown now.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07I went downtown that day, had my big old medal on, went in a restaurant.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09At that time things weren't integrated,
0:10:09 > 0:10:10the black folks couldn't eat downtown.
0:10:10 > 0:10:16I went downtown, I sat down, and I said, "A cup of coffee, hot dog."
0:10:16 > 0:10:20The lady said, "We don't serve Negroes."
0:10:20 > 0:10:21I was so mad I said,
0:10:21 > 0:10:25"I don't eat 'em either, just give me a cup of coffee and a hamburger."
0:10:25 > 0:10:26LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:10:34 > 0:10:36You know, I said, "I'm the Olympic gold medal winner.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38"Three days ago I fought for this country in Rome.
0:10:38 > 0:10:40"I won the gold medal and I'm going to eat."
0:10:40 > 0:10:46I heard her tell the manager, "He says..." "Well, he's got to go."
0:10:46 > 0:10:50They put me out and I had to leave that restaurant in my home town,
0:10:50 > 0:10:52where I went to church and served in their Christianity.
0:10:52 > 0:10:54Daddy fought in all the wars.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56I'd just won the gold medal and couldn't eat downtown.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59I said something's wrong and from then on I've been a Muslim.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02When was your first recollection, as a child,
0:11:02 > 0:11:04of being a second-class citizen?
0:11:04 > 0:11:07A second-class citizen?
0:11:07 > 0:11:08No, more 16th class.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11They used to always say we're second-class citizen.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14I used to say, "Momma, how come we're second-class citizens,
0:11:14 > 0:11:16"the African can go where I can't go,
0:11:16 > 0:11:21"the Chinese can go where I can't go in America, the Englishman."
0:11:21 > 0:11:23You can come to white America and set up businesses
0:11:23 > 0:11:27and do things I can't do, and the Puerto Rican, the Hawaiian
0:11:27 > 0:11:31and just about everybody came before the black people and more respected.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33So I said, "If we were just second-class citizens,
0:11:33 > 0:11:34"we'd be doing all right."
0:11:34 > 0:11:37But we were wa-ay down from second class.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40All right, if we were second-class citizens, we'd be driving
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Cadillacs and living good.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45First-class would be driving a Rolls-Royce,
0:11:45 > 0:11:46but we'd still be doing good.
0:11:46 > 0:11:50No, we way under that, but things are getting much better.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53I always wonder when I went to church on Sundays.
0:11:53 > 0:11:56I'm not just a boxer, I do a lot of reading, a lot of studying,
0:11:56 > 0:11:59I ask questions. I go out, travel these countries.
0:11:59 > 0:12:01I watch how people live and I learn.
0:12:01 > 0:12:05I always asked my mother, "Mother, how come everything's white?
0:12:05 > 0:12:08"How come Jesus is white, blonde with blue eyes?
0:12:08 > 0:12:12"Why is the Lord's supper all white men? Angels are white.
0:12:12 > 0:12:16"Pope and Mary and even the angels."
0:12:16 > 0:12:19I said, "Mother, when we die, do we go to heaven?"
0:12:19 > 0:12:21She said, "Naturally, we go to heaven."
0:12:21 > 0:12:23I said, "What happened to all the black angels?"
0:12:23 > 0:12:25"They took the pictures."
0:12:25 > 0:12:27LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:12:31 > 0:12:33Oh, I said,
0:12:33 > 0:12:36"I know, if the white folks was in heaven too,
0:12:36 > 0:12:39"the black angels were in the kitchen preparing milk and honey."
0:12:39 > 0:12:40LAUGHTER
0:12:41 > 0:12:44Did you have a gang, when you were a kid?
0:12:44 > 0:12:47- Were you running with a gang?- No, I didn't, I didn't run with a gang.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51I didn't have time. There were a few little street gangs,
0:12:51 > 0:12:54people hanging around sitting under the spotlight at nights,
0:12:54 > 0:12:56talking and shooting dice and playing marbles,
0:12:56 > 0:12:59but I was so wrapped up in boxing since I was 12.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02I'd always go to the gymnasium every day at six o'clock after school.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04In the mornings, I would run,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07looking forward to the future Golden Glove and Olympic tournaments.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10I had something to do, which most kids really need,
0:13:10 > 0:13:12something they can look forward to.
0:13:12 > 0:13:14A goal, a purpose to work towards, something to achieve,
0:13:14 > 0:13:16it keeps them out of trouble.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18I'm lucky to be one, at the age of 12,
0:13:18 > 0:13:21I had a good boxing talent, I was good for my age.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24We had a local TV show called Tomorrow's Champions.
0:13:24 > 0:13:26It comes on in Louisville, Kentucky, there,
0:13:26 > 0:13:27every Saturday at six o'clock.
0:13:27 > 0:13:30Three bouts and two-minute round bouts.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33Kids and I had about 45 fights on the show. I came up on it.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37I was so busy I didn't have time to run in street gangs.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40Did you, at that time, though, when you were 12 and in your early teens,
0:13:40 > 0:13:43did you ever imagine yourself as being world champion?
0:13:43 > 0:13:45Well, it happened one night when I heard Rocky Marciano,
0:13:45 > 0:13:481954, 1953, sometime.
0:13:48 > 0:13:49He had beat Walcott, or somebody,
0:13:49 > 0:13:52and I was in the rain on my bicycle, leaning over
0:13:52 > 0:13:56listening to a fellow's radio in a car and I got there too late
0:13:56 > 0:13:58and I heard the fellow say,
0:13:58 > 0:14:02"And still the heavyweight champion of the world, Rocky Marciano."
0:14:02 > 0:14:03All the noise.
0:14:03 > 0:14:05And a little skinny kid from Kentucky, who weighed,
0:14:05 > 0:14:10I don't know how many stones it is, but 85 pounds, small.
0:14:10 > 0:14:14I rode off in the rain on my bicycle, I could hear him saying,
0:14:14 > 0:14:16at that time my name was Cassius Clay,
0:14:16 > 0:14:20"And still the heavyweight champion of the whole world,
0:14:20 > 0:14:22"Cassius Clay."
0:14:22 > 0:14:25I heard it as I rode off in the rain and I said to myself,
0:14:25 > 0:14:30"The champion of the whole world can whup every man in Russia,
0:14:30 > 0:14:32"every man in China, every man in Japan,
0:14:32 > 0:14:35"every man in Europe, every man in America.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37"The champion of the whole world.
0:14:37 > 0:14:40"I guess I'm big then."
0:14:40 > 0:14:43So I kept working until I did it.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45LAUGHTER
0:14:46 > 0:14:50Not only champion of the whole world but better than all those before me.
0:14:50 > 0:14:52LAUGHTER
0:14:52 > 0:14:54APPLAUSE
0:15:00 > 0:15:01I'm not going to argue with you.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04You're not as dumb as you look.
0:15:04 > 0:15:06LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:15:12 > 0:15:14You've got two gorgeous cars, you've got a gorgeous house,
0:15:14 > 0:15:17you've got gorgeous clothes, I'm sure.
0:15:17 > 0:15:18Um...
0:15:18 > 0:15:22That's all I dreamt of, I mean, nice time and that, you know.
0:15:22 > 0:15:26You see I get the impression, from what I read about you,
0:15:26 > 0:15:29that in a way you're not enjoying it, that you're a bit lonely.
0:15:29 > 0:15:33Well, I am, yeah, but I've got to put that on one side.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36I've got the money, I can go out and buy what I want.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39That's it, who's bothered about anybody else? I'm not.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42What about friends, have you got any friends?
0:15:42 > 0:15:46Well, I have one or two that I talk to and go about with.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50That's how we leave it, we don't make a habit of, you know,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53being friends, you what I mean, real friends staying in,
0:15:53 > 0:15:56going off everywhere and doing everything together.
0:15:56 > 0:15:59Would you say your win has brought you happiness?
0:15:59 > 0:16:00Money creates problems,
0:16:00 > 0:16:03you know, as well as it creates everything else and...
0:16:06 > 0:16:09You've got to live with everybody else. I have.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11I've got to please everybody else.
0:16:11 > 0:16:15I've got to dress different from everybody else.
0:16:15 > 0:16:16Why, why?
0:16:16 > 0:16:18I don't know.
0:16:18 > 0:16:20I went over to Sheffield the other week,
0:16:20 > 0:16:23and his mother had an argument with somebody
0:16:23 > 0:16:25because I'm always in jeans when I go over there.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27"If I had her bloody money, I wouldn't dress like that."
0:16:29 > 0:16:32Well, they're only talking. If they had the money, what would they do?
0:16:32 > 0:16:35Before we won this money I used to talk about what I'd do with it.
0:16:35 > 0:16:38I'd give this to that, and that to that.
0:16:38 > 0:16:41Then when we won, we actually won it, we never thought we would,
0:16:41 > 0:16:43I thought, "Bugger them, what's up with us," and that's it.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45That's the way you look at it.
0:16:45 > 0:16:48What's the best thing about it now you have got it?
0:16:48 > 0:16:52You can buy anything you want, can't you? You don't have to save up for it.
0:16:52 > 0:16:56You don't have to take your family allowance book down to your mother's and borrow off it. Do you?
0:16:58 > 0:17:00It's true, it's silly but it's true.
0:17:00 > 0:17:03Viv Nicholson still has money worries,
0:17:03 > 0:17:07though today, unhappily, her problem is not too much, but too little.
0:17:08 > 0:17:13Her husband, Keith, killed in his Jaguar, left her only £5,000.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16They'd spent £60,000 in five years.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20So she must sell this ranch house and get a job for, today,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24her income is much as it was before the dream began.
0:17:27 > 0:17:30Gina, you are now divorced, aren't you?
0:17:30 > 0:17:33Yes, kind of divorced.
0:17:33 > 0:17:34What does that mean?
0:17:34 > 0:17:37Well, it means that we don't have divorce in Italy.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40We're divorced but in Italy it doesn't...
0:17:40 > 0:17:43No, Sophia had the same problem of course, with all that.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45- Different.- Well, all right, different.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Your new found freedom, do you like it?
0:17:48 > 0:17:51Or, are you secretly longing to get a man in tow?
0:17:51 > 0:17:55No, I enjoy to be like that, free, and happy.
0:17:56 > 0:18:00No trouble. No men.
0:18:00 > 0:18:05Many around but not someone that you can't just throw him out, I mean.
0:18:05 > 0:18:10When you have a husband in your home and you want to send him away,
0:18:10 > 0:18:12it's not easy.
0:18:12 > 0:18:14Do you like being controlled by a man?
0:18:14 > 0:18:16Do you like a man to dominate you, or the other way round?
0:18:16 > 0:18:19Oh, er...
0:18:20 > 0:18:23..you know, it is nice to have some men around,
0:18:23 > 0:18:26they are funny for a little while, you know.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Would it matter if he was poor?
0:18:28 > 0:18:31Poor? I am rich.
0:18:31 > 0:18:32So, it's OK.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37I enjoy getting older,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40I'm 33 now, tottering along a bit,
0:18:40 > 0:18:41and a little bit wiser.
0:18:41 > 0:18:46For someone as attractive as you are, you can't mind being 40 at all?
0:18:46 > 0:18:48Are the best years behind you?
0:18:48 > 0:18:50Oh, you are obsessed about age.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52Who is? I'm not.
0:18:52 > 0:18:55Why do you think of people being young,
0:18:55 > 0:18:58about how old they are?
0:18:59 > 0:19:03I think people are young if they feel young.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10One of the objectives of the women's liberation movement
0:19:10 > 0:19:13is to attack the position of women as,
0:19:13 > 0:19:16what they call, sex objects.
0:19:16 > 0:19:20Now, that's exactly what you have been in many of your films,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22Barbarella for example.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24Does your new attitude mean that
0:19:24 > 0:19:26you will no longer appear in motion pictures of that kind?
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Yeah, I will not be making films like that any more.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34I had never,
0:19:34 > 0:19:36I wasn't really aware of...
0:19:39 > 0:19:41..male chauvinism
0:19:41 > 0:19:43and of myself as being a...
0:19:44 > 0:19:47Tell me this, aren't you married to a male chauvinist?
0:19:48 > 0:19:52I think that all men
0:19:52 > 0:19:57are male chauvinists and, poor dears,
0:19:57 > 0:19:59not because they mean to be,
0:19:59 > 0:20:02but because that's the way we've all been educated.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05Women have always allowed themselves
0:20:05 > 0:20:09to be put into a subordinate position.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13That's just, I mean, for centuries that's the way
0:20:13 > 0:20:15we have been educated and raised.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18But surely Vadim is a male chauvinist par excellence?
0:20:18 > 0:20:20No, oh, no, not really.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26It would seem that way but in fact it's not...
0:20:26 > 0:20:31I would say he is no more guilty of male chauvinism than most men I know.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34My God, he made Bardot into a sex symbol,
0:20:34 > 0:20:36he made you into a sex symbol.
0:20:36 > 0:20:39Yeah, I'm talking about the way one relates on a personal level
0:20:39 > 0:20:42on a day-to-day life.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45You once said that marriage is obsolete.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48- You said that a long time ago. - A long time ago.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51- Yes, now, do you still believe that marriage...- Absolutely.
0:20:51 > 0:20:52I firmly believe it.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55I didn't understand, this was 12 years ago, when I said it,
0:20:55 > 0:20:58and I felt it for many years before I said that publicly.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01The political ramifications of it,
0:21:01 > 0:21:03but, of course, I think it's...
0:21:03 > 0:21:07I'm sure that 100 years from now people will look back
0:21:07 > 0:21:11over these centuries of marriage
0:21:11 > 0:21:13and wonder what we were doing.
0:21:15 > 0:21:20I think it is natural to couple,
0:21:20 > 0:21:25for people to be drawn to someone who have similar tastes and desires
0:21:25 > 0:21:29and beliefs and things like that.
0:21:29 > 0:21:33I think there is nothing more important or beautiful than loving someone.
0:21:33 > 0:21:38I think as long as a relationship between two people
0:21:38 > 0:21:43exists in a changing, growing way where people are growing together
0:21:43 > 0:21:47and learning from each other, it is fantastic.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49That usually doesn't last for ever.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54Let's talk about something that I know featured in The Ascent Of Man,
0:21:54 > 0:21:57it's something James Coburn was talking about beforehand.
0:21:57 > 0:22:02That's this thing about equality between men and women.
0:22:02 > 0:22:03It's fascinating reading your book
0:22:03 > 0:22:06which has been written about the series.
0:22:06 > 0:22:10I didn't realise, and, in fact, as a species, physically,
0:22:10 > 0:22:14we are closer together than any other, are we not? Men and women.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18For instance, I didn't know that a woman, in our species,
0:22:18 > 0:22:22is the only female in any species to have an orgasm.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24Which is extraordinary, I didn't know that.
0:22:24 > 0:22:26We are the only species that copulate face-to-face.
0:22:29 > 0:22:33I always usually say, almost the only species in both cases.
0:22:33 > 0:22:37There are some aquatic mammals, like the whales and the seals,
0:22:37 > 0:22:40that find the other form inconvenient.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42LAUGHTER
0:22:46 > 0:22:49And it is also true, that it has recently been shown
0:22:49 > 0:22:52that some of the bigger monkeys,
0:22:52 > 0:22:55the females would be able to achieve orgasm...
0:22:57 > 0:22:58..but don't, in the wild,
0:22:58 > 0:23:01because the males don't keep at it long enough.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03LAUGHTER
0:23:07 > 0:23:10You'll pardon me for cutting the scientific jargon
0:23:10 > 0:23:12and stating the plain facts.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14I much prefer it, sir.
0:23:16 > 0:23:21Can I talk to you about something that fascinated me in your series and in your book?
0:23:21 > 0:23:23This is a theme that runs through your writing
0:23:23 > 0:23:27which is the moral responsibility of the scientist.
0:23:27 > 0:23:31You say that when you went to Hiroshima and Nagasaki
0:23:31 > 0:23:33that this was a crucial point in your life
0:23:33 > 0:23:36because this is when, one presumes,
0:23:36 > 0:23:39you said you'd take no further part in creating weapons of destruction
0:23:39 > 0:23:41and this sort of thing.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Isn't it the ultimate tragedy, though, of all science
0:23:44 > 0:23:46that ultimately it is used to destroy?
0:23:56 > 0:24:01I wonder if I could begin just a little earlier with some biographical details?
0:24:01 > 0:24:02I have lived, you have lived,
0:24:02 > 0:24:07most people here with us, here watching us
0:24:07 > 0:24:12have lived through the two great catastrophes of the 20th century.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15The coming to power of Hitler in 1933
0:24:15 > 0:24:19and the dropping of the atomic bombs in 1945.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23The two most ghastly events that have overtaken the human race,
0:24:23 > 0:24:25I think, in the last 100 years.
0:24:26 > 0:24:30Those two events made a deep impression on me
0:24:30 > 0:24:34because in 1933 I was still a pure mathematician,
0:24:34 > 0:24:36much devoted to the idea of doing mathematics.
0:24:36 > 0:24:40I had never done a broadcast, I had never done a public lecture,
0:24:40 > 0:24:43I had never spoken to anything but
0:24:43 > 0:24:45a class of students in rather professional terms.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50I was convinced in 1933,
0:24:50 > 0:24:54that if the German people had known my fellow scientists,
0:24:54 > 0:24:56had known the people that I loved and admired
0:24:56 > 0:25:01like Einstein, and like Niels Bohr,
0:25:01 > 0:25:04like 100 others.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06Had known them, as I knew them,
0:25:06 > 0:25:10had known their wonderful warm humanity,
0:25:10 > 0:25:13that they could never have been deceived
0:25:13 > 0:25:17by a cold, brutal, monomaniac like Hitler
0:25:17 > 0:25:20to learn to hate them as if they were vermin.
0:25:20 > 0:25:23And I was convinced at that moment,
0:25:23 > 0:25:26that, those of us who could, had a duty to show
0:25:26 > 0:25:30not only that science was wonderful
0:25:30 > 0:25:33but that science was human,
0:25:33 > 0:25:36that scientists had some right to say
0:25:36 > 0:25:40that they were doing the most human things in the world,
0:25:40 > 0:25:44the most natural things, and that we must stop being professionals
0:25:44 > 0:25:46and become people.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53On Thursday nights on BBC1 he is Napoleon Solo,
0:25:53 > 0:25:55tonight he is Robert Vaughn.
0:25:55 > 0:25:59Before you became noted and before you became a widely known figure,
0:25:59 > 0:26:02were you then interested in politics?
0:26:02 > 0:26:03Oh, yes, since I was a child.
0:26:03 > 0:26:07What would you say are the issues that mainly concern you
0:26:07 > 0:26:08and awaken your interest?
0:26:08 > 0:26:11- Now?- Yes.- Vietnam.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13Chiefly and all-consumingly.
0:26:13 > 0:26:16You spoke on this subject, did you not, several times lately?
0:26:16 > 0:26:19One was the Democratic dinner in Indianapolis,
0:26:19 > 0:26:23where I gather you somewhat embarrassed some people at that dinner,
0:26:23 > 0:26:26- some Party people?- Yes.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28Is this likely to cause some kind of break
0:26:28 > 0:26:30between your association with the party,
0:26:30 > 0:26:34in other words, the number of invitations you're going to get to speak on this issue?
0:26:34 > 0:26:37The invitations have quadrupled since that speech.
0:26:37 > 0:26:41So, obviously, there is no break, at least in regard to invitations.
0:26:41 > 0:26:44But is it not so, that another speech of yours,
0:26:44 > 0:26:47at Notre Dame University, was not widely reported.
0:26:47 > 0:26:49It was not reported at all.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52That was the choice of the Indiana newspapers.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56That was called managed news blackout.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02Your attitude to Vietnam is fairly straightforward.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05That the United States should pull out, is it not?
0:27:05 > 0:27:09Oh, no, this is one of the unfortunate conclusions drawn by the Indianapolis press,
0:27:09 > 0:27:12who were not there, incidentally, at the time of the Indianapolis speech.
0:27:12 > 0:27:16I feel that the policy of the administration of the United States
0:27:16 > 0:27:20is indefensible in the situation, however,
0:27:20 > 0:27:23that doesn't really apply because we are there and we are in it now.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25In other words, we should not have been there to begin with.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29At the present time that is of no great consequence
0:27:29 > 0:27:33since we have a quarter of a million men there and growing every day.
0:27:34 > 0:27:37The comment that the war is a limited war
0:27:37 > 0:27:39just doesn't fit the record.
0:27:39 > 0:27:44Men are arriving every day, fleets of ship are moving in with goods.
0:27:44 > 0:27:47The war is not limited, it is expanding.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49I am very concerned it is going to cause Third World War.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56So tonight, in Line-Up review, we will be talking about television comedy
0:27:56 > 0:27:59with six people who are all involved in providing it,
0:27:59 > 0:28:02five of them as writers, one as producer.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05Well, we have an extra guest with us who's just leaving.
0:28:07 > 0:28:09Would you be kind enough to leave, please?
0:28:09 > 0:28:11Would you please mind leaving the studio?
0:28:11 > 0:28:13John, come on.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15I would like to talk about comedy. I am a comedy writer.
0:28:15 > 0:28:18John, cool it, for God's sake, love, you know.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22Are we on?
0:28:22 > 0:28:27As we will be pointing out later on, comedy is a serious business,
0:28:27 > 0:28:30we never thought it was quite as serious as all that.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34Right, could we start this ball rolling with this statement
0:28:34 > 0:28:36about comedy being a serious business
0:28:36 > 0:28:39but never as serious as in the electronic age.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41That quote from The Times which you saw.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Marty Feldman, what would you make of that?
0:28:44 > 0:28:48I have to speak personally, before this sort of rogues' gallery sitting around here,
0:28:48 > 0:28:51but, for me, it isn't serious.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54You write because you think it's funny and it isn't a business,
0:28:54 > 0:28:56you know, business is something else.
0:28:56 > 0:28:59Business is something your agent organises afterwards.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01You write shows because you think they're funny.
0:29:01 > 0:29:05The great fear, certainly at the back of my mind every time,
0:29:05 > 0:29:09is the fact that there's going to be this controversial question
0:29:09 > 0:29:11of a studio audience.
0:29:11 > 0:29:16And they are our only, the only way we can judge,
0:29:16 > 0:29:18the most immediate way and the nearest way we can judge
0:29:18 > 0:29:22- whether the stuff is funny or not, whether they laugh.- Oh, come on.
0:29:22 > 0:29:24I do believe this.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27They don't laugh, so it's a rotten show?
0:29:27 > 0:29:31I think you write better knowing it's going to be played to an audience.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33No, I don't think so at all,
0:29:33 > 0:29:36personally I write what I think is funny myself, personally,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39and if the audience don't laugh, well, sod 'em, you know.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42- I'm not concerned with them.- Johnny. - I write what I think is funny.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45You said you liked Marriage Lines.
0:29:45 > 0:29:46Listen, Johnny...
0:29:46 > 0:29:49- ..it's great.- Noel Coward... Marty what...
0:29:49 > 0:29:51Johnny, Comedy...
0:29:51 > 0:29:53THEY SPEAK OVER EACH OTHER
0:29:53 > 0:29:56- ..for God's sake, love.- If you haven't got it, you'll die.
0:29:56 > 0:29:59John, comedy without an audience just doesn't work,
0:29:59 > 0:30:02comedy depends on an audience, you know. If nobody laughs.
0:30:02 > 0:30:03It doesn't matter about the audience.
0:30:03 > 0:30:06It doesn't matter about the studio audience?
0:30:06 > 0:30:10- It matters if you have a studio audience, it matters about them. - It's a criterion.
0:30:10 > 0:30:15OK, you say this, Johnny, you write the damn thing, you get out there and perform it, love, it matters.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18I'm a writer, I'm not an actor.
0:30:18 > 0:30:21Right, quit the Patrick Campbell bit, you know.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24If you're doing a bit, a comedy bit and the audience laugh.
0:30:24 > 0:30:27Shoot me please.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30Listen, love, if you're doing a comedy bit and the audience laugh,
0:30:30 > 0:30:32this conditions the way you perform the next bit.
0:30:32 > 0:30:35When you start writing for an audience, you're done for.
0:30:35 > 0:30:40When you write for yourself you write novels, you don't write television shows.
0:30:40 > 0:30:43We are having a spot of bother hearing what exactly is being said here
0:30:43 > 0:30:47because it's a splendidly lively discussion, marvellously lively but just a little bit too lively
0:30:47 > 0:30:50so nobody can hear what anybody's saying.
0:30:50 > 0:30:52- You're on both sides. - No, I'm not, love.
0:30:54 > 0:30:5820 years ago comedy writers wrote jokes. That's it, love. End of argument.
0:30:58 > 0:31:0220 years ago comedy writers didn't write jokes, please, get this out of your mind.
0:31:02 > 0:31:05- Dickens was a comedy writer. - Who was?- Dickens was a comedy writer.
0:31:05 > 0:31:09- Yeah.- So don't say 20 years ago. It didn't start with you comedy, or me.
0:31:09 > 0:31:13If Dickens had been writing today he would have been writing Coronation Street.
0:31:13 > 0:31:16Don't say 20 years ago comedy writers wrote jokes.
0:31:16 > 0:31:18He would have written Coronation Street and very well.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21When you write as good as Dickens, you'll make a fortune.
0:31:21 > 0:31:24- Well, don't knock Dickens. - I'm not knocking Dickens.
0:31:24 > 0:31:28OK, then, don't say that 20 years ago comedy writing started, it didn't start then.
0:31:28 > 0:31:31- I didn't say that. - It started with Jonathan Swift.
0:31:31 > 0:31:35Are you deliberately trying to misunderstand me? I didn't say that.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38Ian, what is it about a series like this...
0:31:38 > 0:31:40I hate you...
0:31:40 > 0:31:42We'll wrap this up in 60 seconds
0:31:42 > 0:31:44if I can't make a point without being heard.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47Do you judge your comedy by the laughs you get?
0:31:47 > 0:31:50Well, I don't I judge it by how much I laugh.
0:31:50 > 0:31:52- No.- Say what you mean.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55I am saying what I mean, love, if you are writing in television,
0:31:55 > 0:31:58love, you are not working, this is not ivory tower.
0:31:58 > 0:32:01Wherever I'm writing, I write for myself.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04If I'm writing at home, or writing for television.
0:32:04 > 0:32:09You get dodgy ratings, nobody asks you to write any more, there you go, Johnny Speight.
0:32:09 > 0:32:11I write for myself. I have to live by myself.
0:32:11 > 0:32:15If I'm writing rubbish I can't live with myself.
0:32:15 > 0:32:18I write for myself.
0:32:18 > 0:32:19I'm going to wrap this up.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23Thank you very much, John Chapman, Ian Le Frenais, Marty Feldman.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26Thank you, Duncan Wood, Richard Waring, Johnny Speight.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28And if we've proved anything at all,
0:32:28 > 0:32:30I think there's no doubt that comedy,
0:32:30 > 0:32:33on tonight's evidence, is certainly a serious business.
0:32:35 > 0:32:36When seven critics
0:32:36 > 0:32:39and four comedians over a period of some 30 or 40 years,
0:32:39 > 0:32:43all say exactly the same thing, in the same way, about the same woman,
0:32:43 > 0:32:45they could be right.
0:32:45 > 0:32:47And they say, with awesome simplicity,
0:32:47 > 0:32:50that she is the funniest woman on earth.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52She had to live up to that label once again last night
0:32:52 > 0:32:55at the Edinburgh Festival when she opened, all by herself,
0:32:55 > 0:32:59in A Late Evening With Beatrice Lillie.
0:32:59 > 0:33:02This evening Miss Lillie is in our Glasgow studio.
0:33:02 > 0:33:05Miss Lillie, this label has dubbed you for a long time now.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07If you could change it, is there any label you would prefer?
0:33:09 > 0:33:13Well, I don't like being called the funniest woman in the world.
0:33:13 > 0:33:15I doubt very much.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20Let me see, what would I like to be called?
0:33:24 > 0:33:28Well, isn't she, get her,
0:33:28 > 0:33:29isn't she wonderful.
0:33:29 > 0:33:35You've been called the personification of uncomparable ineffectuality.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38- Who by? - Is that how you see yourself?
0:33:38 > 0:33:41Naturally, I like that.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44Now, your gestures are very much part of you,
0:33:44 > 0:33:46if there was one gesture you could make to show
0:33:46 > 0:33:50the personification of uncomparable ineffectuality, what would that be?
0:33:51 > 0:33:54- Goodness me.- Goodness you.
0:33:55 > 0:34:00Miss Lillie, you have left your two homes in London to travel to Edinburgh.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03Are you missing London very much?
0:34:03 > 0:34:06- Yes, I miss Henley-on-Thames, really.- Why is that?
0:34:06 > 0:34:10Well, on account of Mr Lee, Mr Lee is my pet Pekinese.
0:34:10 > 0:34:13And he watches Tonight every night, believe me he does.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16And he can speak, he talks.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19He can say "Joe DiMaggio"...
0:34:19 > 0:34:22He can. "Constantinople".
0:34:23 > 0:34:25And "I want the ball."
0:34:25 > 0:34:26SHE BARKS
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Shall I sing a little lullaby to him?
0:34:31 > 0:34:34- Miss Lillie, of course. - Thank you.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37Mr Lee din, din, din, din.
0:34:37 > 0:34:41# Mouse, mouse come out of your hole
0:34:41 > 0:34:44# I will give you a golden bowl
0:34:44 > 0:34:47# You shall sit on a tuft of hay
0:34:47 > 0:34:50# I will frighten the cats away
0:34:50 > 0:34:53# Mouse, mouse, when you've gone to bed
0:34:53 > 0:34:56# I will leave you a large loaf of bread
0:34:56 > 0:34:59# And you shall have cheese and a plate full of rice
0:34:59 > 0:35:03# For I love to think of the dear little mice. #
0:35:03 > 0:35:04Do you want it in French?
0:35:04 > 0:35:07Miss Lillie, I think he's a very lucky dog and I don't think,
0:35:07 > 0:35:11- unfortunately, we've got time to hear it in French. Thank you very much.- Thank you.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16Do you like talking about yourself or not?
0:35:16 > 0:35:17Erm, yes, up to a point,
0:35:17 > 0:35:20particularly in relation to what I do.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22In relation to comedy, yes.
0:35:22 > 0:35:26- All right, then, I'll ask you first of all, why are you a comic?- Erm...
0:35:27 > 0:35:29I think always certainly wanted to be
0:35:29 > 0:35:31from the first time I can remember.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33Perhaps looking like this,
0:35:33 > 0:35:35it was perhaps the only thing I could do.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38So I turned the deficiencies into a workable thing,
0:35:38 > 0:35:40if you understand what I mean?
0:35:40 > 0:35:41Yes, let's go bit deeper than that.
0:35:41 > 0:35:44Do you think the world is a comic place or a tragic place?
0:35:44 > 0:35:48I think it consists of the two things, both funny and sad,
0:35:48 > 0:35:51which seemed to me the two basic ingredients of good comedy.
0:35:51 > 0:35:55- Do you read criticisms about yourself?- Reluctantly, yes.
0:35:55 > 0:35:56Do they hurt?
0:35:56 > 0:35:58Yes, they do, actually.
0:35:58 > 0:36:01I try and eliminate that but it's not possible.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Do you find that the newspaper critics are to be taken seriously,
0:36:04 > 0:36:07do you really think about the points they make?
0:36:07 > 0:36:08As a matter of fact,
0:36:08 > 0:36:10I think you think about the points anybody makes.
0:36:10 > 0:36:13It would be nice to say you are beyond maybe that but you never are.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18Now, you stay up talking far into the night,
0:36:18 > 0:36:20do you as matter-of-fact, sleep well when you go to bed?
0:36:20 > 0:36:23- No.- Do you take sleeping pills?- Mmm.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25Why don't you sleep, do you think?
0:36:25 > 0:36:27I think in these days,
0:36:27 > 0:36:31with the challenge of this particular medium, anyway,
0:36:31 > 0:36:33your mind works high, quick,
0:36:33 > 0:36:37you are permanently on an edge, a good one, I think.
0:36:37 > 0:36:39Therefore it is difficult to relax
0:36:39 > 0:36:41while a thing is on, while a show is on.
0:36:42 > 0:36:45But generally, not particularly well.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49It's said about you that you worry a lot about your weight, is that true?
0:36:49 > 0:36:53Mmm. Now, I've got it more or less sorted out now,
0:36:53 > 0:36:55well, within reason.
0:36:55 > 0:36:59I was about two and a half stone heavier than this at one time.
0:36:59 > 0:37:02Do you follow stringent diets and all the rest of it,
0:37:02 > 0:37:04to keep your weight down?
0:37:04 > 0:37:07Shall we say for a time I do and then after a show is over,
0:37:07 > 0:37:10after series is over, for instance, I do anything,
0:37:10 > 0:37:13whatever I want, then I pull right down.
0:37:13 > 0:37:17Why do you worry so much, funny men can be fat perfectly well without...
0:37:17 > 0:37:20I think it makes you sluggish generally, your mind is sluggish.
0:37:20 > 0:37:22I think it is a bad thing really.
0:37:22 > 0:37:25- You haven't got any children, have you?- No.- Would you like to have?- No.
0:37:25 > 0:37:28Why not, I wonder?
0:37:28 > 0:37:30I don't know, I don't know, really.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33Do you have anything against children, flipping kids?
0:37:33 > 0:37:35No, nothing at all.
0:37:35 > 0:37:39Flipping kids doesn't represent any antipathy to children.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43No, not at all, I love other people's children.
0:37:43 > 0:37:47Some of the newspaper writers, who have tried to puzzle out what makes you tick,
0:37:47 > 0:37:50have said that you're the angst man, the anxiety man.
0:37:50 > 0:37:53Now, have you any notion of what your anxiety is, do you,
0:37:53 > 0:37:56in fact, get a kick out of your anxiety?
0:37:58 > 0:38:01Out of anxiety, would you explain that a bit more?
0:38:01 > 0:38:03Well, something appears to me,
0:38:03 > 0:38:05even at the end of this conversation, to be eating you.
0:38:05 > 0:38:09You say that your happiness is just ahead of you still,
0:38:09 > 0:38:11there's something troubling you about the world,
0:38:11 > 0:38:13I'd like to know what it is.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16I wouldn't expect happiness, I don't think that's possible.
0:38:18 > 0:38:24But I'm very fortunate to be able to work in something that I like,
0:38:24 > 0:38:28to work in something that is pleasure, is all anybody can ask.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33In fact, you once made a living, didn't you,
0:38:33 > 0:38:35by telling people's futures?
0:38:35 > 0:38:38- Yes, that's true. - What was that about?
0:38:39 > 0:38:43Well, it was a terrible fake, of course.
0:38:43 > 0:38:46But I do have a few clairvoyant flashes
0:38:46 > 0:38:50but they are so rare that I don't trust them and I don't trust it.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53I don't like clairvoyants because I know that people...
0:38:55 > 0:38:57..when that flash fails them,
0:38:57 > 0:39:01you know, as inspiration fails an artist,
0:39:01 > 0:39:06even more often, the flash of clairvoyance fails the fortune teller.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09When that happens
0:39:09 > 0:39:11they fake,
0:39:11 > 0:39:15- they have to keep faking till ready. - Yes.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18Well, of course, it means that people who believe in them
0:39:18 > 0:39:20are putting their future and their destiny
0:39:20 > 0:39:23and their decisions in the hands of people who,
0:39:23 > 0:39:27even when they're honest, and don't know it,
0:39:27 > 0:39:29- don't know it themselves they're faking it.- Yes.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33I got interested in it because I'm an amateur magician,
0:39:33 > 0:39:36not because I'm an amateur fortune teller.
0:39:36 > 0:39:41I made, in the course of being a magician,
0:39:41 > 0:39:47friendships with professional fortune tellers, crooks in other words.
0:39:47 > 0:39:50- True crooks, you know, who admitted they were crooks.- Yes.
0:39:50 > 0:39:53I learned cold readings, for example,
0:39:53 > 0:39:55a whole lot of cold readings.
0:39:55 > 0:39:57- Do you know what a cold reading is? - No, no idea.
0:39:57 > 0:39:59A cold reading is, for example.
0:39:59 > 0:40:03It says, "Dr Swami will tell your past, present and future."
0:40:03 > 0:40:06You come in, you sit down, I look at you and I say,
0:40:08 > 0:40:12"You, you had a very traumatic experience
0:40:12 > 0:40:15"between the age of five and 14, 15,
0:40:15 > 0:40:18"is that right?"
0:40:18 > 0:40:19Well, of course, everybody did.
0:40:19 > 0:40:22You see, that's a cold reading.
0:40:22 > 0:40:25In other words, I'm saying something that is beginning to convince you
0:40:25 > 0:40:29- that I'm telling you remarkable things about yourself.- Yes.
0:40:29 > 0:40:31And there's a whole series of those.
0:40:31 > 0:40:36You have a scar on your leg, there, I think it's the left leg
0:40:36 > 0:40:38and by your eye I can see if I'm wrong.
0:40:38 > 0:40:40I say, "No, no, it's the right leg."
0:40:40 > 0:40:43Everybody has a scar on his left or right leg from playing games.
0:40:43 > 0:40:46And that is what a fortune teller does.
0:40:46 > 0:40:48And when he gets to be able to do that,
0:40:48 > 0:40:51he begins to suffer from an occupational disease,
0:40:51 > 0:40:54which is known in the trade as being a shuteye.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56Shuteye?
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Yes, and a shuteye is a fake fortune teller
0:40:59 > 0:41:02who has begun to believe himself.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05- That's the real word for it.- Really?
0:41:05 > 0:41:08And I began as a fake and I ended as a shuteye.
0:41:10 > 0:41:14What about the stars, the great stars that they had in those days?
0:41:14 > 0:41:18- That people always say we don't have nowadays.- We don't.
0:41:18 > 0:41:19We don't, that's true,
0:41:19 > 0:41:22because they're not processed in the way that they used to.
0:41:22 > 0:41:25- I don't think that, they don't exist.- They don't exist?
0:41:25 > 0:41:27- They don't exist.- Why is that?
0:41:27 > 0:41:29Because they exist, they're singers.
0:41:29 > 0:41:33In the old days, the greatest thing in the world to be was a movie star.
0:41:33 > 0:41:36- Yes.- Today, the greatest thing in the world is to be a pop singer.
0:41:36 > 0:41:38There will never be a great star
0:41:38 > 0:41:42unless the greatest thing in the world to be is that kind of star.
0:41:42 > 0:41:43I see.
0:41:43 > 0:41:47At the end of the last century, and before the First World War,
0:41:47 > 0:41:51- the greatest thing in the world to be was an opera singer.- Yes.
0:41:51 > 0:41:56People used to faint in the streets when they saw an opera singer.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58Then there came the movie stars.
0:41:58 > 0:42:03I think any form of entertainment only exists
0:42:03 > 0:42:06because it corresponds to a moment in time.
0:42:08 > 0:42:13So, of course, there are actors who are as good, or as remarkable,
0:42:13 > 0:42:16or as space-displacing,
0:42:16 > 0:42:19or however you want to describe a star,
0:42:19 > 0:42:25but the world doesn't think being a movie star is the everlasting end.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28- It used to and that's why they don't exist.- That's right.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31Nobody ever made fun of Hemingway.
0:42:31 > 0:42:33Well, I did and he took it,
0:42:33 > 0:42:36but he didn't like me to do it in front of the club.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42We met in the projection of a movie which he had made,
0:42:42 > 0:42:43and which he wanted me to narrate...
0:42:45 > 0:42:48..and he had written the commentary.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51This is many years ago.
0:42:51 > 0:42:52We hadn't seen each other.
0:42:52 > 0:42:57This is a dark projection room, and I was reading the text
0:42:57 > 0:43:00and I said, "Is it really necessary to say this, do you think?
0:43:00 > 0:43:02"Wouldn't it be better to just see the picture?"
0:43:02 > 0:43:06And things like that. Then I heard this growl from the darkness.
0:43:07 > 0:43:10"Some damn faggot who runs an art theatre trying to tell me
0:43:10 > 0:43:12"how to write narration."
0:43:12 > 0:43:16So I began to camp it up. I thought, if that's what I'm dealing with.
0:43:16 > 0:43:19I said, "Oh, Mr Hemingway, you think because you're so big and strong
0:43:19 > 0:43:22"and have hair on your chest that you can bully me."
0:43:22 > 0:43:23LAUGHTER
0:43:23 > 0:43:27So this great figure stood up and swung at me.
0:43:27 > 0:43:28So I swung at him.
0:43:28 > 0:43:32You have the picture of the Spanish Civil War, being projected on a screen,
0:43:32 > 0:43:36and these two heavy figures swinging away at each other
0:43:36 > 0:43:38and missing most of the time.
0:43:38 > 0:43:41The lights came up and we looked at each other
0:43:41 > 0:43:43and burst into laughter and became great friends.
0:43:45 > 0:43:48Film critics would call themselves experts, one imagines.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51Now, they've judged a film of yours, twice running,
0:43:51 > 0:43:54the best film ever made.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57That shows you how crazy experts are.
0:43:57 > 0:44:02No, I think it shows you how fundamentally sound film criticism is,
0:44:02 > 0:44:03in this day and age.
0:44:05 > 0:44:08No, I never talk about critics
0:44:08 > 0:44:11because there isn't anything to be said about them.
0:44:11 > 0:44:15If they criticise you, anything you say is sour grapes.
0:44:15 > 0:44:18If they like what you do, you should shut up, you know.
0:44:19 > 0:44:22There's no way of criticising the critics.
0:44:22 > 0:44:24Do they ever wound you?
0:44:24 > 0:44:29Deeply, yes. I can remember every bad notice I've ever had.
0:44:29 > 0:44:34I can remember one I got when I was 18 years old in Salt Lake City,
0:44:34 > 0:44:36when I played Marchbanks with Katharine Cornell,
0:44:36 > 0:44:41and I was described as a sea calf whining in a basso profundo.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45I'm sure it's an absolutely accurate description of that performance,
0:44:45 > 0:44:47which must have been abominable.
0:44:49 > 0:44:52Turning for a final moment, if we may, Mr Callaghan,
0:44:52 > 0:44:55to the problem of the parliamentary Labour party now,
0:44:55 > 0:44:58following this overwhelming conference decision.
0:44:58 > 0:45:01I don't know what problem there is in the parliamentary Labour party
0:45:01 > 0:45:04because I'm not entitled to speak for them.
0:45:04 > 0:45:06I'm speaking here tonight on behalf of the NEC
0:45:06 > 0:45:09for who I made the speech this afternoon.
0:45:09 > 0:45:12As a very wise, and experienced and senior member of the parliamentary Labour party...
0:45:12 > 0:45:16Oh, come on, you don't catch an old bird like that.
0:45:16 > 0:45:18Mr Callaghan, do you think
0:45:18 > 0:45:21that Mr Jenkins should remain as deputy leader,
0:45:21 > 0:45:23in these circumstances, knowing his views?
0:45:23 > 0:45:26Mr Day, you've been an interviewer for a long time
0:45:26 > 0:45:29and you knew, before you even phrased the question,
0:45:29 > 0:45:31that you wouldn't get me to comment on that particular matter
0:45:31 > 0:45:33in the light of what I've said to you.
0:45:33 > 0:45:37Have another try if you like, but you won't get any further with it.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39Why not turn to a more profitable line?
0:45:39 > 0:45:41It's a matter of great interest to a lot of people.
0:45:41 > 0:45:43You'd better discuss it with Mr Jenkins,
0:45:43 > 0:45:46but you're not going to get me to make statements
0:45:46 > 0:45:49that you'll then throw at Mr Jenkins and try to set us at each other's ears.
0:45:49 > 0:45:53I'm not going to take part in that game to satisfy a television panel.
0:45:53 > 0:45:55Now, let's turn to something else.
0:45:55 > 0:45:58Do you think that a deputy leader, who is...
0:45:58 > 0:46:02I'm not answering any questions about what a deputy leader should or should not do.
0:46:02 > 0:46:04Please go on to something else.
0:46:04 > 0:46:06- Do you think it's not a matter of public interest?- Of course it is.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09And it's a matter for Mr Jenkins if he wishes to discuss,
0:46:09 > 0:46:11to discuss with you but I'm not Mr Jenkins.
0:46:11 > 0:46:14Do you not have any views on the subject yourself?
0:46:14 > 0:46:16Robin, why don't you turn to something
0:46:16 > 0:46:18where you'll get a little more...
0:46:18 > 0:46:21- Are you a candidate for the deputy leadership?- No. You know I'm not.
0:46:22 > 0:46:27- I don't know, I'm very grateful. - Don't you?- Do you think that...
0:46:27 > 0:46:30- Now, Robin, leave it. Now, leave it. - I haven't started yet.
0:46:30 > 0:46:33If you haven't started, then I beg of you not to start
0:46:33 > 0:46:35- and turn to something else.- I was about to.
0:46:35 > 0:46:37- You are really, you promise? - Yes. OK, all right.
0:46:39 > 0:46:45If the market minority in the Parliament decide to vote...
0:46:45 > 0:46:48I believe this is going to be the same question phrased in a different way.
0:46:48 > 0:46:50Give me a chance, Mr Callaghan.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53Decide to vote, do you really think it is fair to say,
0:46:53 > 0:46:57because a lot of them don't, do you really think it is fair to say
0:46:57 > 0:47:00they are voting to sustain Mr Heath.
0:47:00 > 0:47:01Voting for the Tories.
0:47:01 > 0:47:04Well, I thought it was the same question phrased in a different way.
0:47:04 > 0:47:07When the Parliamentary Labour Party meets it will take its own decision.
0:47:07 > 0:47:11At that time you can ask the leaders of the Parliamentary Labour Party
0:47:11 > 0:47:14what they have to say about that particular matter.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16Thank you, Mr Callaghan.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19Well, thank you, modified thanks.
0:47:22 > 0:47:24You mentioned the press,
0:47:24 > 0:47:28and you feel you've been hard done to by the press.
0:47:28 > 0:47:30First of all,
0:47:30 > 0:47:34don't you think at times you have played into their hands?
0:47:34 > 0:47:38Don't you think you've more or less, you've courted disaster by your behaviour?
0:47:38 > 0:47:42Yeah, when I first started I was the same as everyone else.
0:47:42 > 0:47:44I loved to see my name in the papers
0:47:44 > 0:47:47and I used to do things to make sure I got my name in the papers.
0:47:47 > 0:47:50I still do because I know, at the end of the day,
0:47:50 > 0:47:54I'm going to benefit from it, financially.
0:47:54 > 0:47:57I mean, I think you've got to give and take.
0:47:57 > 0:48:01I originally started it off and maybe courted disaster
0:48:01 > 0:48:04but they went overboard. I mean, they really did.
0:48:04 > 0:48:08One newspaper paid a girl £1,500 to sleep with me
0:48:08 > 0:48:09so they could get a story.
0:48:09 > 0:48:12- 1,500 quid to sleep with you?- Yeah.
0:48:12 > 0:48:14I was annoyed because it was only 1,500 quid.
0:48:14 > 0:48:16LAUGHTER
0:48:17 > 0:48:21No, but things like that and they do it, seriously.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23- Did she?- No.
0:48:23 > 0:48:25LAUGHTER
0:48:25 > 0:48:27She phoned me up and told me when it happened.
0:48:27 > 0:48:29They didn't know, but...
0:48:29 > 0:48:31I already had.
0:48:31 > 0:48:33LAUGHTER
0:48:36 > 0:48:38Can I put something to you?
0:48:38 > 0:48:42One of the most perceptive critics in British football is a man called Hugh McIlvanney
0:48:42 > 0:48:44and he wrote this about you once.
0:48:44 > 0:48:48He said, "I suspect that deep in his nature, there's a strong self-destructive impulse.
0:48:48 > 0:48:51"Now and again he appears to have an irresistible desire to put up
0:48:51 > 0:48:53"two fingers to the world."
0:48:53 > 0:48:54How true is that?
0:48:58 > 0:49:02When I see him, he's in trouble, if he wrote that.
0:49:02 > 0:49:05I don't know, I suppose, it's 50-50.
0:49:05 > 0:49:07I mean, I've done stupid things and, er...
0:49:10 > 0:49:13I don't know, it's difficult to say.
0:49:13 > 0:49:16To be quite honest, all I wanted to do is be left alone to play football
0:49:16 > 0:49:18but I couldn't do it.
0:49:20 > 0:49:24So I suppose if once in a while, if someone was having a go at me,
0:49:24 > 0:49:26I'd stick two fingers up to them, because I didn't want to take it.
0:49:29 > 0:49:33Do you regret now, that you broke the partnership with Galton and Simpson?
0:49:33 > 0:49:36No, because we, I think, as a matter-of-fact,
0:49:36 > 0:49:41it's probably been a very good thing for all of us.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44After all, we worked for about ten years together and we mutually learned,
0:49:44 > 0:49:47there was a lot of conversation, and some press reports about
0:49:47 > 0:49:50the writer does it all, or the comedian does it all.
0:49:50 > 0:49:55This is all nonsense because really, it's a thing that happens gradually.
0:49:55 > 0:49:57One of the main things
0:49:57 > 0:50:00is to share a similar sense of humour,
0:50:00 > 0:50:02which we did from the start.
0:50:05 > 0:50:07As I say, we worked together, and I think fairly successfully,
0:50:07 > 0:50:11for this long time and then they suggested all sorts of things to me
0:50:11 > 0:50:13and I said, "I'm sure I can't do that."
0:50:13 > 0:50:16Then they said, "You've got to try, anyway."
0:50:16 > 0:50:18I tried, sometimes it would come off, you see.
0:50:18 > 0:50:21So we bred from each other, it's a communal thing.
0:50:21 > 0:50:23You can't say a comedian
0:50:23 > 0:50:25is not funny without a script,
0:50:25 > 0:50:27sometimes out of desperation
0:50:27 > 0:50:28he has to do something.
0:50:30 > 0:50:33Or that a script writes itself, this is not true.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37How do you feel, these days, about the show business press?
0:50:37 > 0:50:40How do you think they've treated you?
0:50:40 > 0:50:42Well, I think pretty well on the whole.
0:50:42 > 0:50:45Shall we say it's rather difficult.
0:50:45 > 0:50:48If you come out of, let's say a television show at a peak,
0:50:48 > 0:50:51the one that follows that,
0:50:51 > 0:50:55you really have got to perform a minor miracle for them to go.
0:50:58 > 0:51:01There's no malice, they were right to say what they feel.
0:51:01 > 0:51:02This I don't regret.
0:51:02 > 0:51:08The worst criticism I ever had in my life was a paper seller,
0:51:08 > 0:51:12I used to go and pick the papers up from him in the morning
0:51:12 > 0:51:16and he was always marvellous, was a great fan, you see,
0:51:16 > 0:51:19and we did one show.
0:51:19 > 0:51:22We thought it was a little...not bad...
0:51:22 > 0:51:26- But not good?- Fair.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28And I went round to him
0:51:28 > 0:51:31and he's so enthusiastic about everything all the time.
0:51:31 > 0:51:34He just gave me the papers and didn't say anything,
0:51:34 > 0:51:38just took the money and he looked at me and said,
0:51:38 > 0:51:40"What happened last night, then?"
0:51:40 > 0:51:42This is the worst sort of criticism
0:51:42 > 0:51:46because I knew nobody could have been more for me than him.
0:51:46 > 0:51:50And if he didn't like it, then things had collapsed.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52- This worried you?- Oh, yes.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57Have you felt frightened,
0:51:57 > 0:52:00and even very lonely, in your position of leadership?
0:52:02 > 0:52:06Yes, at times, I think honesty impels me to admit
0:52:06 > 0:52:11that there have been those times that I actually confronted fear.
0:52:11 > 0:52:16I don't think anyone, in a situation like this, can go through it
0:52:16 > 0:52:19without confronting moments of real fear.
0:52:19 > 0:52:23But I've always had something that
0:52:23 > 0:52:26gave me an innocence of assurance
0:52:26 > 0:52:30and an innocence of security in the final analysis.
0:52:30 > 0:52:32Even in the moments of loneliness,
0:52:32 > 0:52:38something ultimately came to remind me that in this struggle,
0:52:38 > 0:52:41because it is basically right,
0:52:41 > 0:52:45because it is a thrust forward to achieve something,
0:52:45 > 0:52:48not just for Negro people,
0:52:48 > 0:52:52but something that will save the whole of mankind.
0:52:52 > 0:52:56When I have come to see these things,
0:52:56 > 0:53:00I always felt a sense of cosmic companionship
0:53:00 > 0:53:04so that the loneliness and the fear have faded away,
0:53:04 > 0:53:07because of a greater feeling of security,
0:53:07 > 0:53:09because of commitment to a moral ideal.
0:53:10 > 0:53:14Were you conscious of colour discrimination in your own life?
0:53:15 > 0:53:19Yes, I became conscious of colour discrimination
0:53:19 > 0:53:21at a relatively early age.
0:53:21 > 0:53:26I think the first time was when I was about six years old.
0:53:26 > 0:53:32I had some friends who lived, well, they didn't live in front of us,
0:53:32 > 0:53:36but their parents had a store, two white boys.
0:53:36 > 0:53:41They were my inseparable playmates for the early years of my life
0:53:41 > 0:53:45and I remember, when I was about six,
0:53:45 > 0:53:50some things started happening when I went over to play with them,
0:53:50 > 0:53:55they always made excuses, they could not play, they were busy.
0:53:56 > 0:54:00Finally, I went to my mother with this problem
0:54:00 > 0:54:03and she tried to explain to me
0:54:03 > 0:54:09in the best way she could explain to a child six years old.
0:54:09 > 0:54:11This was really the first time
0:54:11 > 0:54:16that I became aware of the racial differences, the racial problem.
0:54:18 > 0:54:21One of the most horrific moments for you, personally,
0:54:21 > 0:54:23must have been going back to Auschwitz.
0:54:23 > 0:54:27Did you have to steel yourself before you did that?
0:54:27 > 0:54:29Well, I wasn't very keen to go.
0:54:31 > 0:54:33I wasn't very keen to go
0:54:33 > 0:54:38because many of my relatives from Poland had died in Auschwitz.
0:54:42 > 0:54:46However, the point of the series was that it wasn't an entertainment
0:54:46 > 0:54:50it was about life the way it is, the way it has been.
0:54:52 > 0:54:54Erm...
0:54:56 > 0:55:01..and we just made up our minds to make it as true as...
0:55:01 > 0:55:04as we tried to do everything in the series.
0:55:04 > 0:55:06That is...
0:55:06 > 0:55:09I said I'll go for one day
0:55:09 > 0:55:13and during the morning we'll walk round and in the afternoon
0:55:13 > 0:55:16we'll do the one piece, by the pond, that we know we want to.
0:55:16 > 0:55:17I had never seen Auschwitz.
0:55:17 > 0:55:23You know, I had practically seen none of those places in the programmes,
0:55:23 > 0:55:27for reasons that I'll be happy to tell you about afterwards,
0:55:27 > 0:55:29but Auschwitz, I hadn't been to at all.
0:55:29 > 0:55:32We arrived at this station,
0:55:32 > 0:55:38which had been looked over by the producer in advance,
0:55:38 > 0:55:41so he knew what we should see.
0:55:41 > 0:55:47I went through these terrible wooden and iron gates that say
0:55:47 > 0:55:51"Arbeit Macht Frei" at the top - "work makes free".
0:55:51 > 0:55:55To these unhappy people, who went there to their deaths.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57I looked at the gas ovens.
0:55:57 > 0:56:01I was particularly keen to see bunker 12 and 11,
0:56:01 > 0:56:03where people were...
0:56:05 > 0:56:09..beaten and shot for breach of regulations,
0:56:09 > 0:56:11because I sort of felt that you must see it all.
0:56:11 > 0:56:15But it turned out that the things that were far more moving
0:56:15 > 0:56:18were ones that I couldn't have imagined at all.
0:56:18 > 0:56:21The Germans are terribly methodical.
0:56:21 > 0:56:25So there would be whole areas which contained nothing
0:56:25 > 0:56:27but old spectacles.
0:56:27 > 0:56:30All been very carefully collected.
0:56:30 > 0:56:35They weren't the slightest use, but the Germans weren't going to throw them away.
0:56:35 > 0:56:38There were areas which were entirely full of human hair.
0:56:38 > 0:56:44There was a terrible area which was entirely full of wooden legs
0:56:44 > 0:56:48and crutches and artificial limbs.
0:56:48 > 0:56:50And the most pathetic area of all,
0:56:50 > 0:56:53an area which was just full of little tin chamber pots
0:56:53 > 0:56:55the children who had come to the camp
0:56:55 > 0:56:58had brought with them and the Germans had collected.
0:56:58 > 0:57:02By this time I was in a pretty low frame of mind.
0:57:03 > 0:57:05The most awful thing was that there were...
0:57:07 > 0:57:12..pictures in the corridors of prisoners...
0:57:15 > 0:57:18..which were just the ordinary picture, you know,
0:57:18 > 0:57:20front, face, number on the bottom,
0:57:20 > 0:57:25but many of them were pictures of quite young people, children.
0:57:25 > 0:57:28To see these pictures of people taken as if they were criminals,
0:57:28 > 0:57:31with the tears streaming down their face,
0:57:31 > 0:57:32was just unbearable.
0:57:34 > 0:57:39Then we drove over to the pond, and we had arranged
0:57:39 > 0:57:43I was just going to say a piece to close that programme, at the pond,
0:57:43 > 0:57:46which would arise out of what I had seen in the morning.
0:57:46 > 0:57:49So I sort of walked up and down for five minutes,
0:57:49 > 0:57:53making up my mind what I was going to say.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56And then, we did it.
0:57:56 > 0:57:58One take and we go home.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00We had made up our minds
0:58:00 > 0:58:03that it was a piece which you couldn't possibly do twice.
0:58:03 > 0:58:06You just had to say what came into your mind.
0:58:06 > 0:58:10The thing that came into my mind, absolutely out of the blue,
0:58:10 > 0:58:13was the phrase from Oliver Cromwell that I quote,
0:58:13 > 0:58:16"I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ,
0:58:16 > 0:58:18"think it possible you may be mistaken."
0:58:36 > 0:58:40Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd