0:00:02 > 0:00:04'This programme contains some strong language.'
0:00:04 > 0:00:07If you find this normal,
0:00:07 > 0:00:09you belong to the upper middle class or higher.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14Or is this your kind of party?
0:00:14 > 0:00:16Balancing your plate on your knee?
0:00:16 > 0:00:20If so, your background is probably working class.
0:00:20 > 0:00:23My friends, the class war is over.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:00:41 > 0:00:43Class dismissed.
0:00:43 > 0:00:45I'm Frank Skinner and tonight I'll be discussing
0:00:45 > 0:00:48the subject of class with a panel of distinguished guests.
0:00:48 > 0:00:51Roisin Conaty, Micky Flanagan and Miles Jupp.
0:00:51 > 0:00:53CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:00:56 > 0:01:00A lot of people feel the concept of class is no longer relevant
0:01:00 > 0:01:02and that class differences have ceased to exist.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04I th... Hold it...
0:01:05 > 0:01:09No, Tarquin. I know you say "clarse" but I...
0:01:11 > 0:01:14- LAUGHTER - No, I always say "class".
0:01:14 > 0:01:18I know he would, but Stephen Fry is not presenting it, is he?
0:01:18 > 0:01:21Yeah, well. Fair enough.
0:01:21 > 0:01:24Actually, I'd say "off" rather than "orff"!
0:01:24 > 0:01:26LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:01:28 > 0:01:31So firstly, the big question.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34Is class still relevant in the 21st century?
0:01:34 > 0:01:37I think it is relevant but not as relevant as it was,
0:01:37 > 0:01:39or I would be hosting this.
0:01:39 > 0:01:42LAUGHTER
0:01:42 > 0:01:44APPLAUSE
0:01:49 > 0:01:52You're right. The world as upside-down, isn't it?
0:01:52 > 0:01:55For example, did you know that in the last three years,
0:01:55 > 0:01:5748% of working-class people in this country,
0:01:57 > 0:02:00if we may call them that, have been on a foreign holiday.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02When I was a kid, it's absolutely true,
0:02:02 > 0:02:04the only people I knew who had been abroad
0:02:04 > 0:02:08had only done so in the context of World War II.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10LAUGHTER
0:02:11 > 0:02:14They did a massive survey in March 2011,
0:02:14 > 0:02:19just 24% of people classed themselves as working class.
0:02:19 > 0:02:23In 1988, when they asked the same question, it was 67%.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26So 40% of them have either got credit cards...
0:02:26 > 0:02:31Or are working class people more apathetic to voting now?
0:02:31 > 0:02:33LAUGHTER
0:02:35 > 0:02:39My opinion on class is this, it used to be a big thing
0:02:39 > 0:02:41in, say, the '60s and '70s,
0:02:41 > 0:02:45but in the discrimination league table, it slipped badly.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49If I was trying to put together an unfair dismissal tribunal,
0:02:49 > 0:02:52if they said I was racially discriminated against,
0:02:52 > 0:02:54I'd say, "We can't lose."
0:02:54 > 0:02:56If it was sexual, "We're going to win this."
0:02:56 > 0:02:59If it was class I'd say, "Forget it. You're 40 years too late."
0:02:59 > 0:03:02It's according to whether you're at the end of it or not.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05When I was growing up, I always felt that being working class
0:03:05 > 0:03:09was something that, you know, you could be proud of.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11Now it's, sort of,
0:03:11 > 0:03:13people want to reject it a little bit,
0:03:13 > 0:03:16because it's associated with someone who is not trying hard enough.
0:03:16 > 0:03:20The word chav and stuff like that. That's demonisation of the working classes.
0:03:20 > 0:03:26I think there's quite a lot of class war. People not being viewed right.
0:03:26 > 0:03:28- I've got a quote from Cheryl Cole. - Oh!
0:03:28 > 0:03:30On that very subject.
0:03:30 > 0:03:33This is what Cheryl Cole says, I find this very interesting.
0:03:40 > 0:03:42LAUGHTER
0:03:42 > 0:03:45Well, no. I don't mean that, though, by "chav".
0:03:45 > 0:03:49And neither does anyone else who has ever said chav!
0:03:49 > 0:03:52They mean really bad working class rubbish, is what they mean.
0:03:52 > 0:03:55It seems to have replaced the word pleb, hasn't it?
0:03:55 > 0:03:59I think people are quietly saying, "Hm, plebs..."
0:03:59 > 0:04:02- That's from ancient Rome, isn't it? The plebs.- Plebs?- Yes.
0:04:02 > 0:04:06So it's replaced it but plebs had a bloody good run!
0:04:06 > 0:04:08LAUGHTER
0:04:09 > 0:04:14So all three of you have been exploring your own class struggles.
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Miles, what was the nature of your class struggle?
0:04:17 > 0:04:19Well, I do think, if you are middle class,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22as I am, sometimes you get very trapped within that.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26What I find myself genuinely being very envious of is someone like Mickey,
0:04:26 > 0:04:29you can call an old lady "sweetheart"
0:04:29 > 0:04:32and it would look sort of relaxed and normal.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34Look what happened when Wayne Rooney did that!
0:04:39 > 0:04:42I would say, this voice, I sound posher than I am.
0:04:42 > 0:04:44I sound sort of landed, and indeed loaded,
0:04:44 > 0:04:47but it's not actually what I am.
0:04:47 > 0:04:51And also my natural tendency is to mumble
0:04:51 > 0:04:53and so if I don't speak like this,
0:04:53 > 0:04:55people don't understand what I'm saying.
0:04:55 > 0:04:57So there's a sort of trade-off.
0:04:57 > 0:05:01People can understand what I'm saying but they just assume that I'm a bit of an arse.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04I've had, you know, I have to weigh that up before I join a conversation.
0:05:04 > 0:05:08Do I want them to understand me or do I want them to like me?
0:05:08 > 0:05:11You went to meet accent coach Morwenna Rowe.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14She prepared you for a job on a market.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17Interestingly, you actually had this session in the same room
0:05:17 > 0:05:21that they filmed the speech sessions in The King's Speech movie.
0:05:21 > 0:05:24Yeah, yes. We did the whole thing on a similar budget.
0:05:24 > 0:05:26Let's have a look.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29Are there things about me that suggest that I'm not...
0:05:29 > 0:05:33Not someone who sells fruit, or indeed vegetables,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36- in the East End? - Yes.
0:05:37 > 0:05:40What you're doing at the moment is you're sitting
0:05:40 > 0:05:43in a way that's very polite and not even remotely invading my space.
0:05:43 > 0:05:47What I'd say is, take up this sofa as if it's yours.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50- The whole thing. - Right. So, erm...
0:05:50 > 0:05:53But without moving your feet up. That's it. Yeah, yeah.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Even more. At now you want to just project to energy out a little bit.
0:05:56 > 0:05:59So instead of that feeling of withdrawing in, just think, "Hey!"
0:05:59 > 0:06:02Just that sense of, "I'm going to give it out."
0:06:02 > 0:06:05- Fruit! - Ha-ha! Kind of, yeah.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07Now, down here you've got this...
0:06:09 > 0:06:14Well, in your head, massive manhood that you actually need to really present to the world,
0:06:14 > 0:06:17so I want you to just say, "'Ere we are!"
0:06:17 > 0:06:19- 'Ere we are! - More.
0:06:19 > 0:06:21Make sure that goes first. You're behind.
0:06:21 > 0:06:23You're the charioteer, that's the horse.
0:06:23 > 0:06:26It goes where it wants to, I am just followin' it.
0:06:26 > 0:06:29My dick's the planet, I'm just livin' on it.
0:06:29 > 0:06:32'Ere y'are, sweetheart, call it a pound.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34Pleased with that.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37- So I sort of feel pretty ready. - Cool.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39- OK, and so you've got the voice? - Yeah.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42- Happy with the cries? - Happy with the cries, I shout out.
0:06:42 > 0:06:43Stand out like that.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46And then what are you wearing?
0:06:46 > 0:06:48You're in that?
0:06:48 > 0:06:51That's all right, isn't it?
0:06:51 > 0:06:54Pound a box, pound a box. Have a taster, darling.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59- Whatever y'like, whatever y'fancy! - Give me five cherries, mate.
0:06:59 > 0:07:02Pound a box, pound a bowl!
0:07:02 > 0:07:05- The noise is unbelievable. - Pound a box!
0:07:05 > 0:07:08Have I given you too much change? Too little? Thanks for the bangers.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12Getting a bit better. He's beginning to talk and serve customers at the same time.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15I ain't seen nuffin'! I ain't seen nuffin'!
0:07:15 > 0:07:17What's a matter with you all?
0:07:17 > 0:07:19Four avocados, courtesy of Juppy. Lovely.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22Pound a bowl! POUND A BOWL!
0:07:22 > 0:07:24See you later, sweetheart.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27- You look a bit knackered there, mate.- I am tired.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30You've only been here half-an-hour!
0:07:30 > 0:07:32I'm sure it seems like half-an-hour to you.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35- It was half-an-hour, I promise you. - It's just I find the...
0:07:35 > 0:07:37It's the sheer being out there, the shouting bit.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41I'm naturally really like that. And you guys, "Woah!"
0:07:41 > 0:07:44- You'd be no good to me. - Seriously, though.
0:07:44 > 0:07:47Do cockneys like you speak like that all of the time?
0:07:47 > 0:07:49What, you think I go home and put on another voice?
0:07:49 > 0:07:53- It's just, it's exhausting. - I'm not an actor, I'm a greengrocer.
0:07:53 > 0:07:54This is me.
0:07:55 > 0:07:59- Micky Flanagan, is he putting it on? - Who's Micky Flanagan?
0:07:59 > 0:08:02LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:08:07 > 0:08:09- Well done.- Thank you.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12I did call an old lady "sweetheart" at one point.
0:08:12 > 0:08:14I felt really excited about that,
0:08:14 > 0:08:16like when I was an 11-year-old and scored a half-century
0:08:16 > 0:08:19in a cricket match at prep school...
0:08:19 > 0:08:22If you take accent, right, Brian Sewell said,
0:08:22 > 0:08:26"One could never make love to a woman with a glottal stop."
0:08:29 > 0:08:31I should explain what that is.
0:08:31 > 0:08:35If you say, "the lottery", you say "the lo-ery".
0:08:35 > 0:08:39So the Ts are replaced by a glottal stop.
0:08:39 > 0:08:42- Oh, good. He's not after me then. - We've got a picture of Brian.
0:08:42 > 0:08:44He has got a bit of a chip on his shoulder.
0:08:47 > 0:08:48Is that a chip?
0:08:48 > 0:08:53I wouldn't want to sleep with anyone, some people are so posh they don't move their top lip.
0:08:53 > 0:08:57It's not mumbling, it's like, "I don't think I'm going to go round there."
0:08:57 > 0:09:01It's just like, well, if you're not bothered to move your top lip,
0:09:01 > 0:09:04I'm not bothered to talk to you, to be honest.
0:09:04 > 0:09:06I've never noticed that before. That is absolutely spot-on.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10My friend introduced me to a girlfriend and she talked to me for ten minutes.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12I said to him, "That's unacceptable.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15"I can't speak to her again until she's learnt to move her face".
0:09:15 > 0:09:20I make a lot of effort, really move my face a lot, so you know I am talking.
0:09:20 > 0:09:25And she's like, "Yes so we're going to have a drink, have a drink. Really nice to meet you."
0:09:25 > 0:09:27What are you doing?
0:09:27 > 0:09:32If you are posh, I think the way forward is to be a bit foolish.
0:09:32 > 0:09:37Working-class people like posh people if they are a bit silly.
0:09:37 > 0:09:40Ping-pong was invented on the dining tables of England,
0:09:40 > 0:09:44ladies and gentlemen, in the 19th century, it was.
0:09:44 > 0:09:46And it was called whiff-whaff.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50And there I think you have the essential difference between us and the rest of the world.
0:09:50 > 0:09:55Other nations, the French looked at a dining table and saw an opportunity to have dinner.
0:09:55 > 0:09:58We looked at a dining table and saw an opportunity to play whiff-whaff.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04I say to the world, ping-pong is coming home!
0:10:04 > 0:10:06LAUGHTER AND APPLAUSE
0:10:07 > 0:10:11You know, exactly. We kind of like him, though.
0:10:11 > 0:10:13He has embraced his poshness.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Isn't ecstacy a terrible drug?
0:10:18 > 0:10:20I bet Steve Ovett watches that clip over and over again on YouTube
0:10:20 > 0:10:25with Sebastian Coe, going, "Look how fucking uncomfortable you look now!"
0:10:27 > 0:10:30You very rarely meet people who speak really well.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33You can't immediately tell if someone
0:10:33 > 0:10:36is well educated because they'll drop their accent down a bit,
0:10:36 > 0:10:39especially if they're round working class people.
0:10:39 > 0:10:43And the same with working class people. They'll try a bit harder, maybe.
0:10:43 > 0:10:46You know this estuary English thing in London,
0:10:46 > 0:10:49where everybody sort of sounds the same, don't they?
0:10:49 > 0:10:53So you think it's sort of moulding into an amorphous mass?
0:10:53 > 0:10:57One famous person who sort of did that route
0:10:57 > 0:11:01of going from a bit posh to a bit working class was Nigel Kennedy.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05This is Nigel Kennedy when he was a young man and as he is now.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08It's a bit frightening thinking about it sometimes
0:11:08 > 0:11:10but I think it's the best place for me.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13We've got all night of Vivaldi and stuff, like...
0:11:13 > 0:11:17Vivaldi, You've got to have a break away from this geezer, you know.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I think that's a deliberate move, isn't it?
0:11:21 > 0:11:24He was in that area at the time of trying to make
0:11:24 > 0:11:27classical music slightly more popular.
0:11:27 > 0:11:29That was the perfect way to do it.
0:11:29 > 0:11:32A little bit, you know, football shirt and start to talk
0:11:32 > 0:11:34like that a little bit.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36But it worked for him, didn't it?
0:11:36 > 0:11:40Unless they took him straight from that interview of him as a child to a football ground
0:11:40 > 0:11:42and he didn't get out until that day.
0:11:42 > 0:11:44This is a picture of him at a premier.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47That can't be right, can it?
0:11:47 > 0:11:50It looks like a special premiere for the homeless.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54He'll never get run over, that is for sure.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58That thing about the walk, see, I've seen guys walking around
0:11:58 > 0:12:01with that very open, "Here's my manhood."
0:12:01 > 0:12:04- Do you walk like that, Mick? - I can do.
0:12:04 > 0:12:08- If I want to.- Right. - The Cockney tradition,
0:12:08 > 0:12:12he has got quite a bow, especially Friday night,
0:12:12 > 0:12:17going down the pub, put a nice shirt on, I'm going to have a walk about.
0:12:17 > 0:12:22"I'm 'ere. Awight, ladies! What's 'appening?"
0:12:22 > 0:12:25Everyone's thinking, by the way, "Arsehole".
0:12:25 > 0:12:29When working class men come into the house, you can always tell
0:12:29 > 0:12:34because they empty all of their pockets and put their keys, everything goes on the table.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37Maybe that's because they need groin space.
0:12:37 > 0:12:43I was wondering, because the walk is all about swinging your knees and showing your genitals,
0:12:43 > 0:12:47if that's where the word Cockney actually came from.
0:12:47 > 0:12:51I'm interested in this idea that you can even tell someone's class
0:12:51 > 0:12:55by the way they move about, what they look like.
0:12:55 > 0:12:59In the 1950s, people used to go out and they used to watch people
0:12:59 > 0:13:02in the street and work out what class they were.
0:13:02 > 0:13:07- I think that by the way they're carrying their luggage...- No taxi.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10No taxi and all stuffed in the bags like that.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13I think the lady possible sets her own hair,
0:13:13 > 0:13:15which is always an indication.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19- Do we agree then?- Yes. - A skilled worker, I would say so.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22Do you reckon if we looked at someone in the audience
0:13:22 > 0:13:27we could have a rough idea of what their sort of social status was, just by the look of them?
0:13:27 > 0:13:33Can we just pick someone, just put them up on the monitors? Here we go.
0:13:33 > 0:13:38Ah, I thought middle class and then I saw that gap between the two front teeth.
0:13:38 > 0:13:43And I thought, "That's been formed by years of Woodbines!"
0:13:45 > 0:13:49- I think she's posh.- You think she's posh?- I don't think she's that posh.
0:13:49 > 0:13:55- I think she's posh posh.- No, I don't think she's posh.- She looks like she's in the caring profession.
0:13:55 > 0:14:00- She could possibly be a nurse or something.- What's your name? - Helen.- Helen.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03OK... Do you think that's posh?
0:14:03 > 0:14:08- That's not not posh.- OK. And what do you do, Helen?- I'm a student.- Ah.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11- What's she studying though? - Illustration.- Posh.
0:14:11 > 0:14:17- What do you think of yourself as? - Erm...middle?
0:14:17 > 0:14:21- Lower middle?- Lower middle, OK. I'm interested in the man next to you, in the spectacles.
0:14:21 > 0:14:25I think he could be a minor royal.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30Um... What do you think?
0:14:30 > 0:14:35I think when he's in town, he likes to be urban and groovy but at the weekends, quite a lot of falconry.
0:14:39 > 0:14:44- What class would you say you were? - Lower middle, high working.- Oh, OK.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46Scaffolder.
0:14:52 > 0:14:56Anyway, we'd better stop doing this cos there's an element of cruelty in it.
0:14:56 > 0:15:00I felt terribly ill at ease there. I can only say silly things.
0:15:00 > 0:15:05If I say anything, it will look appalling. You were able to just say it and it seemed all right.
0:15:05 > 0:15:09I was that close to saying to Helen, "Show us your tits."
0:15:11 > 0:15:15I wanted to say that, but I just didn't have the nerve.
0:15:15 > 0:15:20- So, Roisin, what was the nature of your class investigation?- Um...
0:15:20 > 0:15:26I don't think that people from extreme different classes
0:15:26 > 0:15:28can fall in love, that they can make it work.
0:15:28 > 0:15:34The reason for this is I met a very posh man, he's lovely, and we were chatting for quite a while
0:15:34 > 0:15:38and I mentioned a fish finger and he had no idea what they were.
0:15:38 > 0:15:43He had no concept of what a fish finger was. I knew then, this is never going to work.
0:15:43 > 0:15:49I'm going to have to explain everything. Clacton, bumper cars, you can't explain a lifetime.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51I haven't got all that time.
0:15:51 > 0:15:56Do you honestly think that barrier couldn't be broken down?
0:15:56 > 0:16:00I don't think many people marry outside their class.
0:16:00 > 0:16:04No matter how high you rise or how low you fall, people tend to marry...
0:16:04 > 0:16:09It's a sort of comfort feeling, people can understand your background and frame of reference.
0:16:09 > 0:16:13Interracial marriage is probably more common than inter-class marriage.
0:16:13 > 0:16:17So you went on a date with a different posh bloke and let's see how that went.
0:16:19 > 0:16:24- What's that? Thank you very much. - You look lovely. - Thank you very much. So do you.
0:16:24 > 0:16:28It's like a meadow...of spring flowers, you're wearing there,
0:16:28 > 0:16:32- that I might pick in May. - Do you know what a fish finger is?
0:16:32 > 0:16:35- Yes, I do know what a fish finger is.- Have you eaten one?
0:16:35 > 0:16:38I've had them in a sandwich just recently.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44Mmm... That puts some butter on the spinach.
0:16:44 > 0:16:50- Sorry?- I mean, that's very good. - That puts some butter on the spinach? Is that what you say?
0:16:50 > 0:16:53- Do you ever say, "Now we're cooking on gas"?- Why would you say that?
0:16:55 > 0:16:58- Cos it cooks faster with gas? - Mmm.- Right.
0:16:58 > 0:17:02Say we were really getting on, imagine this is our 80th date...
0:17:02 > 0:17:05- 80th?- Yes. - We would have been intimate by then?
0:17:05 > 0:17:09- All right, calm down.- What would that be like?- What? Being intimate?
0:17:09 > 0:17:13- Yes. I mean... - I think that's classless. We don't need to discuss that.
0:17:13 > 0:17:19That's broken down the barriers. Oh, yeah. No-one's worried about class when you're naked.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23- Is this normal chat that you would have at the table? Sex talk?- No.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26I have tried to be rather well behaved, but at the same time,
0:17:26 > 0:17:30I'm getting the feeling that I've got a little bit more leeway
0:17:30 > 0:17:34than perhaps I would...were you...from a different background.
0:17:34 > 0:17:40- Oh! You see, there...- Right. OK. Now, does that offend you?- Yes.- Right.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44You've basically just said, "She looks like a goer!"
0:17:52 > 0:17:56I have to say, if I was on a first date with someone
0:17:56 > 0:17:58and they said to me, "Are you aware of the concept of a fish finger?"
0:17:58 > 0:18:02I'd be a little ill at ease.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05Where is this going?
0:18:08 > 0:18:10Is it dogging terminology?
0:18:11 > 0:18:14To be fair to Joshi, he is in the audience tonight.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17Maybe we should give him a chance to defend himself.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19What were you getting at when you said,
0:18:19 > 0:18:23"If I was with someone from your class, I'd expect a certain..."?
0:18:23 > 0:18:29- It's that fish finger statement. That might have thrown me a bit. - It sent you into a randy frenzy?!
0:18:33 > 0:18:37I think generally I was referring to these perceptions,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40real or otherwise, about class barriers.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43Some fellow said to me, "I'm working class, so I make love
0:18:43 > 0:18:48"to my girl in a working class manner and you must take her up her...upper class!"
0:18:52 > 0:18:55SPEECH DROWNED OUT BY LAUGHTER
0:18:57 > 0:19:03- I think we've cleared that up, that you didn't mean anything sexist at all.- Good Lord, no.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07On the sexual side of things...
0:19:09 > 0:19:15The assumption that working class girls are easy, let me assure you they're not!
0:19:16 > 0:19:21You really have got to charm them and woo them and be a nice guy.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24Yeah. Pay them sometimes.
0:19:26 > 0:19:31There's that idea amongst men that somewhere, there's a group of women who are easier,
0:19:31 > 0:19:37so working class fellas think middle class women are... Men do this cos they're so simple.
0:19:37 > 0:19:41They think, "Maybe in Switzerland, it's easier.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45"Oh, maybe I should go to Africa! In Africa, it is!"
0:19:45 > 0:19:49There's only one place, Thailand.
0:19:50 > 0:19:54- That's the only place it's really easy to get sex.- Yes.
0:19:54 > 0:19:58I suppose a lot of the things that people dress up as are more working class jobs,
0:19:58 > 0:20:02like maids' outfits or nurses uniforms.
0:20:02 > 0:20:07No-one dresses as an investment banker. Or a judge.
0:20:07 > 0:20:12- None of the sort of high up jobs. - No, you're right.- "You sexy judge!
0:20:12 > 0:20:14"Am I guilty? Am I guilty?"
0:20:17 > 0:20:20"Send me down! Go on, send me down!"
0:20:22 > 0:20:29Anyway, Micky, you are a man who has experienced embourgeoisement.
0:20:29 > 0:20:35- Yes, I have.- So you were working class and now you've developed many middle class attributes.
0:20:35 > 0:20:39But you went to look at one thing that you just can't embrace.
0:20:39 > 0:20:45- What is that?- This is modern art. - You think this is a class thing.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48I always feel if I go to a modern art gallery,
0:20:48 > 0:20:51I'm sort of having the pee taken out of me.
0:20:51 > 0:20:54I'd like to try and understand if it is.
0:20:54 > 0:20:59Whether or not working class people walk into these places and think, "What a lot of old cobblers?"
0:20:59 > 0:21:05Or middle class walk in there and think, "I'm not allowed to say that. "I have to say I sort of get it."
0:21:05 > 0:21:11We've got Will Gompertz, who is the BBC Arts Editor, to show you around a gallery,
0:21:11 > 0:21:16so a man who really knows about modern art. This is what happened.
0:21:16 > 0:21:22This is what makes people a little bit angry cos this looks like a geezer has emptied his brush.
0:21:24 > 0:21:29I can see no genuine skill here. How talented is this man?
0:21:29 > 0:21:32I think I could get close to that with a bit of practice.
0:21:32 > 0:21:35Do you know what? I don't think you'd get anywhere near.
0:21:35 > 0:21:40This is a slash in a canvas and someone is telling me this is art.
0:21:40 > 0:21:43- I don't think it is art. - I like this.
0:21:43 > 0:21:50What I like is the idea that he's destroyed something and at the same time, he's created something.
0:21:50 > 0:21:54- Ah! See, that's your sort of get out of jail card.- It's not.
0:21:54 > 0:21:56I just think it's clever. I think it's a nice idea.
0:21:56 > 0:22:03I could go home and go to my sofa and go... And then Cath will say, "Why have you slashed the settee?"
0:22:03 > 0:22:08- I think she'd be right to say that. - I'd say, "I had this terrible set of emotions I needed to express.
0:22:08 > 0:22:14- "It's slashed. Deal with it."- It's not a work of art.- Why is it not?
0:22:14 > 0:22:20Because you've slashed your settee. It's not a work of art. It's a bloke who's slashed a settee.
0:22:20 > 0:22:23SPEECH DROWNED OUT BY MICKY LAUGHING
0:22:23 > 0:22:26You've done really well so far on a few of the cases,
0:22:26 > 0:22:32but I'm telling you now, this is a mirror. This is not art.
0:22:32 > 0:22:35Otherwise, in every toilet in the country,
0:22:35 > 0:22:40every bathroom in the country, there's art on the wall, apparently. So, come on.
0:22:40 > 0:22:45I think this is a comment on art and art making and people's relationship with art.
0:22:45 > 0:22:50I am so tempted to just draw a cock in the corner because I think that would make it funnier.
0:22:50 > 0:22:52- Do you really think it would make it...?- Yeah.
0:22:52 > 0:22:57- I think people would come from miles around to see the cock on the mirror.- You do?- Yeah.
0:22:57 > 0:23:01It would be my interpretation of this person's very weak criticism of art.
0:23:01 > 0:23:05I'll give a criticism of art and I'll draw a cock on it.
0:23:11 > 0:23:18I'm worried by that laughter because I think this is the people saying, "Yes, it's all rubbish.
0:23:18 > 0:23:24"These artists, they don't know," and we celebrate the fact that we see through it.
0:23:24 > 0:23:30- This is one of Andy Warhol's soup cans, right? What do you think of that, Mick?- Erm...
0:23:30 > 0:23:34I'm not hungry at the moment, so... I don't know.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37- What's it supposed to make me think?- I don't know.
0:23:37 > 0:23:41Why is it if I dismissed that, I'm ignorant?
0:23:41 > 0:23:46Yet if someone, a really upper class person watches football and goes,
0:23:46 > 0:23:51"Load of old nonsense," they don't really get challenged on it.
0:23:51 > 0:23:54Well, I don't like middle class people at football very much.
0:23:54 > 0:23:58But when I was at school, we used to do this thing
0:23:58 > 0:24:02that if one of the kids in our gang started doing a bit of homework,
0:24:02 > 0:24:08or getting interested, we used to give them a lot of stick cos we'd think, "Who do you think you are?"
0:24:08 > 0:24:11And we were basically celebrating the fact,
0:24:11 > 0:24:15we were anti-learning and anti-knowledge and all that.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19I think looking back, I sort of feel bad about that.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21- Yeah, you should.- Yeah.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25I think the tin of soup, it's almost a class statement.
0:24:25 > 0:24:28It's saying you don't have to go to a big posh fancy gallery
0:24:28 > 0:24:33to see beautiful things cos those things in your kitchen cupboard have their own beauty.
0:24:33 > 0:24:40That's why some working class would find it so hard. It's about the time you have to contemplate.
0:24:40 > 0:24:45The working classes haven't got that time to contemplate an urinal.
0:24:45 > 0:24:48They have a wee and go back to the factory.
0:24:48 > 0:24:52- Would you say you're a working class man, Mick?- Yeah, definitely.
0:24:52 > 0:24:56I think money and education, they can't get in the way of the fact
0:24:56 > 0:25:02that I'm still essentially a working class bloke, who now has got a little bit of money.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06No, it's a lot actually. I can't deny it.
0:25:06 > 0:25:12OK. So you've never thought to yourself, "I'm becoming middle class, I've noticed a change"?
0:25:12 > 0:25:19Yeah, I think there are moments when you catch yourself wondering where the hummus is in the fridge.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22I suppose it's where your loyalties end up.
0:25:22 > 0:25:29If I'm watching a debate on the TV about the transport system
0:25:29 > 0:25:34and the fact that the Tube strikers are going out again, my affiliation is with the Tube strikers.
0:25:34 > 0:25:40"Yeah, go out on strike. Get as money as you can. You're down a hole, 12 hour shifts."
0:25:40 > 0:25:47I'm not someone who'd go, "Some of these people are on £40,000 a year for driving a train!"
0:25:47 > 0:25:51I'm always siding with the working class man.
0:25:51 > 0:25:55Miles, I imagine you're thinking, "Public transport? What's that?"
0:25:56 > 0:25:58I'm confused by much of what Micky says.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04Just plastering on this smile and hoping he doesn't bite.
0:26:06 > 0:26:11I've been studying the whole notion of class and how you define class for years
0:26:11 > 0:26:15and I've asked some very important people how to do it.
0:26:15 > 0:26:19Some of them, they just don't really want to join in.
0:26:19 > 0:26:23The one badge of working class-ness, I always thought,
0:26:23 > 0:26:26was...having a bucket in the bedroom.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29- Right?- Yes.
0:26:29 > 0:26:32- For what purpose?- Well...
0:26:33 > 0:26:37- No, I get it.- If you have an outside toilet, you don't want to get up in the night.
0:26:37 > 0:26:42I used to think, if people didn't grow up with a bucket of urine in the bedroom,
0:26:42 > 0:26:46they weren't truly working class. Honestly. This is my badge.
0:26:46 > 0:26:52The registrar general comes up with education and... but I think this is more foolproof.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56They talk about working class kids going to sleep with tears in their eyes, that was the ammonia.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02Look at that expression.
0:27:02 > 0:27:05Now that is, "I don't know where to go with this.
0:27:05 > 0:27:10"Slightly worried. I've never heard the word urine on TV before. What is a bucket?"
0:27:11 > 0:27:16The old bucket of wee in the room has, I'm sad to say, died out.
0:27:16 > 0:27:20- It has died out. - Not in my house, it ain't.
0:27:20 > 0:27:23There's nothing quite like having a piss in a bucket in the night.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27It's my house, if I want to piss in a bucket, I will.
0:27:27 > 0:27:32- I had to share a room with two brothers, both of whom were heavy drinkers.- Oh, God!
0:27:32 > 0:27:36If I got up at four, I couldn't lift the bucket.
0:27:39 > 0:27:44And I did it once and the handle... Well, it wasn't the driest.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46I got it two foot and it dropped.
0:27:46 > 0:27:49It landed on its base and there was sort of
0:27:49 > 0:27:54what I would call a piss ball rose up and hit me full in the face.
0:27:55 > 0:28:00The same physics... as a tequila slammer.
0:28:01 > 0:28:04Thanks very much, guys, for coming.
0:28:04 > 0:28:09It's been a wondrous journey through the whole subject of class.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11Thank you, Miles, Micky and Roisin.
0:28:11 > 0:28:14APPLAUSE
0:28:19 > 0:28:21So...
0:28:25 > 0:28:28So, um, presenting this programme has caused me
0:28:28 > 0:28:34to look very closely at my own views on class and I suppose I can best sum them up like this...
0:28:39 > 0:28:43# He was poor but she was honest
0:28:43 > 0:28:47# Victim of a squire's whim
0:28:47 > 0:28:51# First he loved her, then he left her
0:28:51 > 0:28:55# But she had a child by him... #
0:28:59 > 0:29:00Everybody!
0:29:00 > 0:29:04# It's the same the whole world over
0:29:04 > 0:29:08# It's the poor what gets the blame
0:29:08 > 0:29:13# It's the rich that gets all the pleasure
0:29:13 > 0:29:18# Ain't it all a bloomin' shame? #
0:29:20 > 0:29:23Good night!
0:29:23 > 0:29:26Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd
0:29:26 > 0:29:29E-mail subtitling@bbc.co.uk