0:00:01 > 0:00:03The year is 1969.
0:00:03 > 0:00:05The Star Of The Sea Football Club
0:00:05 > 0:00:09has one of the most successful youth teams in Northern Ireland.
0:00:10 > 0:00:13The Star Of The Sea is exceptional.
0:00:13 > 0:00:14It's a mixed team,
0:00:14 > 0:00:18with Protestants and Catholics playing together on the same side.
0:00:18 > 0:00:22Around them, communities are dividing swiftly,
0:00:22 > 0:00:27brutally and efficiently into sectarian ghettos,
0:00:27 > 0:00:30and soon this team too will divide.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34Two of the Protestants will go to jail for terrorist offences,
0:00:34 > 0:00:36as will one Catholic.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40Bobby Sands will be elected a Westminster MP
0:00:40 > 0:00:42and will die on hunger strike.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44Yes, go on, Andrew!
0:00:45 > 0:00:47Go on, fella, get in there!
0:00:57 > 0:00:59FLUTE BAND PLAYS
0:01:09 > 0:01:14Bobby Sands did not come from a hardline republican background.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19He grew up in what was then a mixed housing estate -
0:01:19 > 0:01:21Rathcoole, just outside Belfast -
0:01:21 > 0:01:25an estate that is now fiercely loyalist.
0:01:31 > 0:01:34But when Bobby Sands was a child,
0:01:34 > 0:01:38one family in four in Rathcoole was Catholic.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40By Northern Ireland standards,
0:01:40 > 0:01:43it was an exceptionally well-integrated estate.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46It attracted many mixed marriages.
0:01:46 > 0:01:49Bobby Sands was a child of one of them.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52His father was a Protestant, his mother a Catholic.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56Catholic children played with Protestants,
0:01:56 > 0:02:00and Protestant children seemed happy to join the youth club
0:02:00 > 0:02:03just down the road from Rathcoole with a Catholic name -
0:02:03 > 0:02:07the Star Of The Sea after the Virgin Mary.
0:02:07 > 0:02:11All this was a measure of the harmony in that community before the Troubles,
0:02:11 > 0:02:14a harmony mirrored by the football team itself,
0:02:14 > 0:02:17split equally between Protestants and Catholics.
0:02:19 > 0:02:24Bobby Sands' best friend was Thomas O'Neill, a Catholic.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28They grew up together and joined the club as young boys.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31Joined the Star Of The Sea when he was what...
0:02:33 > 0:02:34..eight year old.
0:02:34 > 0:02:38The two of us joined at the same time, eight year old.
0:02:38 > 0:02:39I stayed till I was what...
0:02:42 > 0:02:44..20 years of age. Bobby left about...
0:02:45 > 0:02:46He was about 18.
0:02:46 > 0:02:50Terry Nichol, a Mormon.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54He later joined the illegal Protestant UVF.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57When he went to the Star Of The Sea he had one passion.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59Just football. I'd have played for anybody.
0:03:01 > 0:03:05I'd have kicked about in the street if I wasn't getting a football match,
0:03:05 > 0:03:08even with kids two or three years younger than me,
0:03:08 > 0:03:10as long as you were out playing football.
0:03:10 > 0:03:12Dessie Black, a Catholic,
0:03:12 > 0:03:15and Willie Caldwell, a Protestant.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20They've been close friends since they first met 15 years ago.
0:03:20 > 0:03:24I think, basically, it was through being in the Star Of The Sea.
0:03:24 > 0:03:26Through the Star.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30Although I knew Dessie a bit before I joined the youth club.
0:03:30 > 0:03:34We used to play football over... there used to be a field.
0:03:34 > 0:03:37In Greencastle there, there used to be a big area, it's all knocked down now.
0:03:37 > 0:03:39Where is it - round Mill Road?
0:03:39 > 0:03:43It's all housing estates now, but it used to be a big field.
0:03:43 > 0:03:45We used to play football there, like street against street,
0:03:45 > 0:03:48and I used to play against his street.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51Dessie used to run off with the ball crying if he got beat!
0:03:51 > 0:03:54- They used to win all the time. - Took the ball home!
0:03:54 > 0:03:59Geordie Hussey, a Protestant. A football fanatic.
0:03:59 > 0:04:02Just like ordinary fellas. Nobody asked whether you were Catholic or Protestant.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05If a new fella started, you didn't ask, are you a Catholic or Protestant?
0:04:05 > 0:04:08If he was a half-decent footballer he was on the side,
0:04:08 > 0:04:09if he wasn't, that was it.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11Denis Sweeney,
0:04:11 > 0:04:16the grammar-school boy, and later the doctor, a Catholic.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18I must say, at the Star Of The Sea Football Club,
0:04:18 > 0:04:21you basically found out afterwards when you were on the team
0:04:21 > 0:04:25who were the Protestants and who weren't, who were the Catholics.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29But it was imperceptible.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33Strangely enough, it took a long time
0:04:33 > 0:04:37to find out who the Protestants and who the Catholics were.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41Raymond McCord, a Protestant.
0:04:41 > 0:04:43Emigrating with his family to Australia,
0:04:43 > 0:04:46depressed by all that the Troubles had destroyed.
0:04:46 > 0:04:47They were all friends.
0:04:49 > 0:04:53And there was never any animosity at all.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56Two or three times a year, we used to go down to Dublin,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58play teams from the South,
0:04:58 > 0:05:02and they would have sang The Sash with us going down to Dublin,
0:05:02 > 0:05:06and we would have sang rebel songs.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08It was just a singsong.
0:05:08 > 0:05:09It was just probably songs
0:05:09 > 0:05:12that their parents had taught them and our parents had taught us.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15But there was no bad feeling, even when the songs were getting sang.
0:05:15 > 0:05:19Michael Atcheson, a Protestant.
0:05:19 > 0:05:21He later joined the UVF
0:05:21 > 0:05:25and he's now serving 18 years in the Maze prison for his part
0:05:25 > 0:05:28in the shooting and wounding of three Catholic labourers.
0:05:32 > 0:05:36Rathcoole, on the northern shores of Belfast Lough,
0:05:36 > 0:05:39is a good five miles from the city
0:05:39 > 0:05:42and in 1969, that distance protected the estate
0:05:42 > 0:05:46from the spreading sectarian conflict in Belfast.
0:05:48 > 0:05:53Rathcoole was still mixed, and that's the way it almost stayed.
0:05:53 > 0:05:57Belfast was burning, but Rathcoole stayed aloof.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00Even during the height of the Protestant celebrations
0:06:00 > 0:06:03on the night before 12th July,
0:06:03 > 0:06:07when an effigy of the Pope is traditionally burnt on a bonfire,
0:06:07 > 0:06:10even then, Protestant Raymond McCord remembers
0:06:10 > 0:06:12how the Catholics would join in the fun.
0:06:12 > 0:06:15Most of the streets in Rathcoole were mixed.
0:06:15 > 0:06:19In fact, every street was mixed and at the time of the year,
0:06:19 > 0:06:22when the Protestants are supposed to hate Catholics
0:06:22 > 0:06:25and Catholics are supposed to hate Protestants,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28say around 11th, 12th of July,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31on the 11th night when we were lighting the bonfires,
0:06:31 > 0:06:34there was two families on our street,
0:06:34 > 0:06:37one was a Protestant family and the other one was a Catholic family.
0:06:37 > 0:06:41And they collected the money from the kids
0:06:41 > 0:06:43and the kids' parents would have parties for us
0:06:43 > 0:06:45and this happened every year,
0:06:45 > 0:06:48even when the Troubles were going for a couple of years.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52But Rathcoole was an exception.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59If you didn't live on a mixed estate,
0:06:59 > 0:07:02your experience was very different.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05As a child living in a Catholic area of Belfast,
0:07:05 > 0:07:07Denis Sweeney never met any Protestants.
0:07:07 > 0:07:09They were all Catholic.
0:07:10 > 0:07:14I'd no Protestant friends that I can remember as a child
0:07:14 > 0:07:16before the age of ten, say.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18So even before the Troubles,
0:07:18 > 0:07:21there was certainly very clear sectarian division?
0:07:21 > 0:07:26Absolutely, yes. I didn't know why. I remember probably...
0:07:27 > 0:07:31I remember on holiday in Portstewart
0:07:31 > 0:07:34at the age of about five, six,
0:07:34 > 0:07:38meeting other kids on the beach et cetera,
0:07:38 > 0:07:41and being told afterwards that they were Protestants,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43feeling that strange, to a certain extent,
0:07:43 > 0:07:45that I had met Protestant people.
0:07:45 > 0:07:51I didn't have any Protestant friends before the age of probably ten or 11.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56Rathcoole had managed to maintain a religious mix
0:07:56 > 0:08:00that Denis Sweeney had never known, but it was to be short-lived.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03Over the rest of the province, a total of 60,000 people
0:08:03 > 0:08:08had fled their homes in mixed areas for Protestant and Catholic enclaves.
0:08:08 > 0:08:10Rathcoole held out...
0:08:12 > 0:08:15..until the spring of 1972,
0:08:15 > 0:08:19when the estate was suddenly swollen with Protestant refugees,
0:08:19 > 0:08:21who found themselves homeless
0:08:21 > 0:08:25after being forced out of Catholic areas of Belfast.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31They came to Rathcoole demanding shelter and protection,
0:08:31 > 0:08:34seething with bitterness against Catholics.
0:08:35 > 0:08:37The police were helpless,
0:08:37 > 0:08:42unable to control the chain reaction of hatred sweeping Northern Ireland.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48Loyalist vigilantes took over patrolling the estate
0:08:48 > 0:08:53and Catholics living in Rathcoole were told they'd be safer elsewhere.
0:08:53 > 0:08:54If they refused to budge,
0:08:54 > 0:08:57their windows were broken and their homes attacked.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01By 1974, most of them had left.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07Among them Bobby Sands and Tommy O'Neill.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11They didn't even come to the door. They hadn't got the guts to come to the door.
0:09:11 > 0:09:15They just threw bottles through the window, stones through the window.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17My mother's hands, she's still got the scars.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21For no reason at all.
0:09:21 > 0:09:24We just didn't bother with politics then.
0:09:24 > 0:09:26So what did your family do?
0:09:26 > 0:09:29- Had to move.- That night?- Next day.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33Moved to Moyard.
0:09:33 > 0:09:37From there to Ardoyne, stayed there.
0:09:37 > 0:09:38Lived in Ardoyne since it.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43No life down in Rathcoole, just couldn't live in Rathcoole.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Just intimidated, just coming home at nights, me and Bobby Sands...
0:09:50 > 0:09:54had to walk home at nights, couldn't even get the bus home, just got hit.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57Hit, waiting at the bus stop for you.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00If you were a Catholic, that was it, you just got hit.
0:10:00 > 0:10:04One time there, the police came and I was lifted for...
0:10:04 > 0:10:06it was supposed to be intimidation,
0:10:06 > 0:10:08and was held for questioning for a while.
0:10:08 > 0:10:11When I told them I was on the committee on Star Of The Sea
0:10:11 > 0:10:13the policeman concerned, he rung up the club
0:10:13 > 0:10:17and when he found that I was on the committee, that was the end of that there,
0:10:17 > 0:10:20because I was let out after about two minutes after he made the phone call.
0:10:20 > 0:10:24So the fact that you were on the committee of the club was enough to convince him
0:10:24 > 0:10:26that you couldn't have been intimidating any Catholics?
0:10:26 > 0:10:30Yeah, the club was well respected. They were known throughout the area, to be honest with you.
0:10:30 > 0:10:32A lot of people went to it and there was never no trouble
0:10:32 > 0:10:35within the club or outside the club, to be honest with you.
0:10:35 > 0:10:39And yet at that time, when Catholics were being put out of the estate,
0:10:39 > 0:10:43you must have known of people who were intimidating Catholics,
0:10:43 > 0:10:46you must have had Catholic friends who were being intimidated?
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Yeah, there was good Catholics put out, to be honest with you.
0:10:49 > 0:10:51- There was.- Did that not put you in a difficult position?
0:10:51 > 0:10:54- Playing for Star Of The Sea, like? - Yes, and living there.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58Yeah, it was more embarrassing because you went down to train and they were mentioning it.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01- Fair play to them, like.- What happened if you knew mates of yours,
0:11:01 > 0:11:04who were with you at school, say, who were putting Catholics out?
0:11:04 > 0:11:08- Was there anything you could do? - No, it would be a waste of my time.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10What could I do?
0:11:10 > 0:11:15You could try to stop them. And several times we did.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18The family facing us one night, they tried to put them out
0:11:18 > 0:11:21and we tried to stop them.
0:11:21 > 0:11:23But you could stop them that night and they'd only come back
0:11:23 > 0:11:25the next night or come back when you went to bed.
0:11:25 > 0:11:29So...there was very little you could do.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31What about among your friends,
0:11:31 > 0:11:35was there ever a difference of opinion between you and your friends
0:11:35 > 0:11:38about whether Catholics should be living on the estate?
0:11:38 > 0:11:41There was many times.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45You fought more with your Protestant friends
0:11:45 > 0:11:48than you fought with your so-called Catholic enemies.
0:11:49 > 0:11:53But for a Protestant to be sticking up for Catholics
0:11:53 > 0:11:56in what was now a hardline loyalist Rathcoole
0:11:56 > 0:12:00was then, as it is now, a dangerous business.
0:12:00 > 0:12:04Got my two hands broke, so I did.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06And, er...
0:12:06 > 0:12:08How?
0:12:08 > 0:12:11Well, members of the paramilitaries...
0:12:13 > 0:12:18..I didn't agree with some of the things that they'd done and...
0:12:21 > 0:12:22..they'd a couple of fellas that
0:12:22 > 0:12:24belonged to one of their organisations,
0:12:24 > 0:12:27and I didn't like them, they didn't like me, so...
0:12:27 > 0:12:29What had they done?
0:12:29 > 0:12:34Well, they were just members of... They were well-known members,
0:12:34 > 0:12:36fellas the same age as myself
0:12:36 > 0:12:42and they were trying to make a name for themselves
0:12:42 > 0:12:45so they picked on me one night and...
0:12:48 > 0:12:50..they broke my nose and broke my two hands.
0:12:53 > 0:12:58And...that was their great thing about it.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01Were they wearing masks or were they wearing their own clothes?
0:13:01 > 0:13:03No, they were just... No masks on.
0:13:08 > 0:13:12Friends of mine didn't like it, so they just dished it back to them.
0:13:13 > 0:13:17By now, Terry Nichol, despite his Mormon upbringing,
0:13:17 > 0:13:21was identifying totally with Ulster loyalism.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23He stopped going to the Star Of The Sea.
0:13:23 > 0:13:25I just didn't want to play for them any more.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32Not the club. Inside the club, it was usually all right -
0:13:32 > 0:13:35you'd have got snide remarks or you'd overheard a remark,
0:13:35 > 0:13:39but there was never any blatant saying anything to you,
0:13:39 > 0:13:42but as I say, I was going down into Greencastle
0:13:42 > 0:13:45and even my own thoughts were going away from Catholics.
0:13:47 > 0:13:50Every night on the news, you'd riots here, there, everywhere.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54I'd just left for the summer, no summer football,
0:13:54 > 0:13:57and just didn't go back the following year
0:13:57 > 0:14:01in August, September, to train, to sign up again, just didn't go.
0:14:01 > 0:14:05Did the other Protestants in the team feel the same?
0:14:05 > 0:14:08I think mostly, yes, but a couple of them...
0:14:08 > 0:14:12I think Raymond McCord was still back playing for them the next season.
0:14:14 > 0:14:19I don't know whether Geordie Hussey was back or not, I don't think so.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22I think it just sort of all happened in the one summer.
0:14:25 > 0:14:28The team of 1969 had scattered.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32Protestants and Catholics took cover in their own safe areas.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35Each side would avoid meeting the other.
0:14:35 > 0:14:37Except for two -
0:14:37 > 0:14:41Willie Caldwell and Dessie Black would continue to be friends.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45You could tell you were passing the dead ball. After four we got it.
0:14:45 > 0:14:48Dessie Black, the goalkeeper, was a good friend of Bobby Sands.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51They knew each other from school as well as from the team.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53Let's try and speed it up a wee bit.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56He has a new life now in Guernsey.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58He's a construction worker
0:14:58 > 0:15:01and, on Sunday afternoons, a football coach,
0:15:01 > 0:15:04teaching fancy footwork to the Guernsey women's team.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11He settled here with a Guernsey-born wife and young son,
0:15:11 > 0:15:15middle name Zico after one of his daddy's idols.
0:15:15 > 0:15:19Keep it going, Tracy. That's better, well done. Keep it going.
0:15:19 > 0:15:22Round the cones, come on!
0:15:22 > 0:15:23Dessie Black is a Catholic,
0:15:23 > 0:15:28his best friend Willie Caldwell a Protestant.
0:15:28 > 0:15:30The friendship has lasted.
0:15:30 > 0:15:33It survived the Troubles. It's even thrived.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35OK, now let's speed it up a wee bit!
0:15:35 > 0:15:38But it's all happened outside Northern Ireland.
0:15:38 > 0:15:40OK, when you get back here, stay.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43In our situation, I think we'd have still been friends.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46I mean, only time obviously would have told
0:15:46 > 0:15:50and even in Belfast, you can't be 100% sure, but...
0:15:52 > 0:15:55I don't know, I can't honestly say what would have happened
0:15:55 > 0:15:58but I think we'd have still remained friends, yeah.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00- What do you think, Dessie? - Oh, aye, yeah.
0:16:00 > 0:16:05Like he said, I reckon we'd still be mates, you know.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07Obviously, you don't know.
0:16:07 > 0:16:11You don't know, but we went through a lot together, you know,
0:16:11 > 0:16:16I think we'd have been still mates, like, you know.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20When it first came on to me that we were actually having, you know,
0:16:20 > 0:16:24we were in the situation as it is now, became really bad,
0:16:24 > 0:16:27was three boys that I knew and I'd knocked about when I was younger,
0:16:27 > 0:16:30and they were building bombs in a garage in Bawnmore
0:16:30 > 0:16:33and the forms blew up and the three of them were killed.
0:16:33 > 0:16:35That's the first time it really struck home to me that
0:16:35 > 0:16:40that sort of thing was going on around our area.
0:16:40 > 0:16:43I think that was '69, wasn't it? Or maybe '70. '69, '70.
0:16:43 > 0:16:47Because I thought that although it was happening on the Shankill
0:16:47 > 0:16:49and on the Falls, it hadn't really come down our way yet.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53That's when it first sort of struck home down there.
0:16:53 > 0:16:55And how did it affect you, that?
0:16:55 > 0:16:59I was pretty shocked, because I didn't know they were into that
0:16:59 > 0:17:02because I'd known them, grew up with them lads
0:17:02 > 0:17:06and I didn't think they'd have been into anything like that. That was, you know...
0:17:08 > 0:17:11I can remember my mate calling down for me
0:17:11 > 0:17:13to go up to the youth club that night.
0:17:13 > 0:17:15It was the Friday afternoon that happened
0:17:15 > 0:17:20and I'd heard it on the radio at work that three boys in our area
0:17:20 > 0:17:23had been killed making bombs in a garage.
0:17:23 > 0:17:28And I can remember going to the club with Chuck Toland
0:17:28 > 0:17:30who was my mate, and he was saying to me,
0:17:30 > 0:17:35"That was bad news about the boys getting blown up in the garage."
0:17:35 > 0:17:38And I said, well, I says, "Yeah, it's pretty bad that they got killed
0:17:38 > 0:17:42"but if they're into doing that, you know, serves them right."
0:17:42 > 0:17:45I mean, that's... They shouldn't have been doing that.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48In my opinion, you know.
0:17:49 > 0:17:52While one bomb explosion may have hardened attitudes,
0:17:52 > 0:17:56another, as in Denis Sweeney's case, determined a career.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59He decided to become a doctor.
0:17:59 > 0:18:02There was a local pub close to my house
0:18:02 > 0:18:05and I would have gone there occasionally
0:18:05 > 0:18:07on a Friday night for a drink
0:18:07 > 0:18:10and I would have probably been in that pub that night,
0:18:10 > 0:18:13only the fact was that we were off the following morning,
0:18:13 > 0:18:17which was a Saturday morning, for a tournament in Donegal.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20And the pub was blown up that night.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22I walked past it, I was about 150 yards past it,
0:18:22 > 0:18:26and then the pub was blown up.
0:18:26 > 0:18:29The walls collapsed and the first floor collapsed
0:18:29 > 0:18:32and there were people being carried out.
0:18:32 > 0:18:38I just remember watching a soldier carrying someone down the street
0:18:38 > 0:18:41and absolutely no-one having a clue what to do for the people,
0:18:41 > 0:18:43for the person that was injured.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45There were no ambulances there at that stage.
0:18:45 > 0:18:49But seeing someone totally mangled being carried down the street,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52with nobody having a clue what to do with him. I thought,
0:18:52 > 0:18:58"There's a job for someone who wants to do something in the community."
0:19:09 > 0:19:13Salt Lake City in the state of Utah, USA.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16From the moment Terry Nichol first flew in
0:19:16 > 0:19:18to this Mormon capital of the world
0:19:18 > 0:19:22he knew, just like the first Mormon settlers, he wanted to stay.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Terry came to visit his sister and his mother, who'd been converted
0:19:31 > 0:19:36by Mormon missionaries in Rathcoole more than 20 years ago.
0:19:37 > 0:19:39The religion offered many splendours,
0:19:39 > 0:19:42both spiritual and material.
0:19:42 > 0:19:44The quality of life is somewhat better
0:19:44 > 0:19:48in a Salt Lake City suburb than in Rathcoole.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52Rather than spend the rest of his life with no job
0:19:52 > 0:19:56and no future back home, Terry is desperate to emigrate,
0:19:56 > 0:19:58but his less-than-exemplary lifestyle,
0:19:58 > 0:20:00his three-year stretch in prison
0:20:00 > 0:20:03and his involvement with the paramilitaries
0:20:03 > 0:20:04haven't helped his case.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10When did you join the paramilitaries?
0:20:10 > 0:20:14I joined... I'd say I was 17.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16It was about 1970.
0:20:18 > 0:20:20Why did you join?
0:20:20 > 0:20:24Just ideological, to defend Ulster.
0:20:28 > 0:20:31The security forces didn't seem to be doing anything.
0:20:31 > 0:20:34When the British Army did come in, they were defending the Catholics.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37They were doing nothing for us.
0:20:37 > 0:20:40Rathcoole was quiet enough, but it was on the news and everything -
0:20:40 > 0:20:41they were down on the Shankill Road,
0:20:41 > 0:20:43people were fighting with the Falls Road people
0:20:43 > 0:20:45who'd come in to defend the Falls Road people
0:20:45 > 0:20:48and we were under the impression -
0:20:48 > 0:20:51it's our army, why should we be defending them
0:20:51 > 0:20:54that don't want to remain part of Britain?
0:20:54 > 0:20:59So then I think that these paramilitary organisations sprung up,
0:20:59 > 0:21:03people were disgusted with the British, the British Government.
0:21:03 > 0:21:08Did you genuinely, though, feel a political commitment or was it,
0:21:08 > 0:21:12at the age of 17, possibly an excuse for a bit of fun?
0:21:12 > 0:21:13Part of both.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17Probably mostly fun because if you had have been political-wise at all,
0:21:17 > 0:21:24you could have joined the Young Conservatives or at home, Young Unionists, Young this...
0:21:24 > 0:21:26You could have got in, but maybe they wouldn't have accepted you.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28Even so, you didn't have to.
0:21:28 > 0:21:32A lot of people felt the same, and didn't join any organisation.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34Scared of going to jail, scared of getting into trouble.
0:21:34 > 0:21:36Would you have joined the Young Unionists?
0:21:36 > 0:21:38No, I'm not much of a debater.
0:21:40 > 0:21:44While Terry's actions may have spoken louder than words,
0:21:44 > 0:21:47they did land him in jail for three years.
0:21:47 > 0:21:52But for him, the justice of his cause is still beyond question.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56We were just fighting back. We never started it.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59That's our point of view, they started it.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02Our point of view is, if the army hadn't have come in,
0:22:02 > 0:22:03then we would have finished it.
0:22:03 > 0:22:07If they hadn't have come in, it would never have lasted 12 years.
0:22:07 > 0:22:10- Do you regret all that now? - No, not at all.
0:22:10 > 0:22:14As I say, we grew up in an atmosphere like that
0:22:14 > 0:22:18so it was just an initial progression for us at home, you know,
0:22:18 > 0:22:20especially the like of myself.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22The party was over now,
0:22:22 > 0:22:26playing the football with whoever you wanted to play football with -
0:22:26 > 0:22:28you just went on to other things.
0:22:30 > 0:22:31The party was over
0:22:31 > 0:22:36and this self-imposed apartheid had forced not just the team
0:22:36 > 0:22:39but all of Northern Ireland apart.
0:22:39 > 0:22:44This is Catholic Ardoyne, much of it controlled by the IRA.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48It's jammed up tight against the loyalist Shankill area of Belfast.
0:22:51 > 0:22:55Its densely-populated streets had once welcomed homeless Catholics
0:22:55 > 0:22:57fleeing other parts of the city.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00Now, almost everyone there is unemployed,
0:23:00 > 0:23:03including Tommy O'Neill.
0:23:03 > 0:23:05His close friendship with Bobby Sands was ended
0:23:05 > 0:23:09when they both had to leave Rathcoole and went separate ways.
0:23:09 > 0:23:12We split when we were 17 or so, 18.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15Bobby went to go his way, I went my way.
0:23:15 > 0:23:19We'd both to leave Rathcoole. He went to Twinbrook, I went to Ardoyne.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23He got involved in the movement.
0:23:25 > 0:23:26That was him.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28I didn't see him after that.
0:23:28 > 0:23:32- Never?- Once or twice, just when he was up in Long Kesh.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36- Did you go and visit him there? - Yeah.
0:23:37 > 0:23:40- Brought his child up.- Sorry?
0:23:40 > 0:23:42I brought his child up to Long Kesh.
0:23:44 > 0:23:47First one to bring it up.
0:23:47 > 0:23:49I don't know, he's just...
0:23:51 > 0:23:54Bobby Sands, he wasn't bitter.
0:23:54 > 0:23:56He just wanted...
0:23:57 > 0:23:59He just wanted a united Ireland,
0:23:59 > 0:24:02he just wanted the British out of Ireland.
0:24:02 > 0:24:06Why did football have this enormous significance?
0:24:06 > 0:24:09I was dedicated to football, he was more dedicated to running,
0:24:09 > 0:24:13cross-country and this caper. He loved that.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15I loved the football.
0:24:15 > 0:24:16He took his turn, I took my turn.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19He wanted to go running, I would have run with him.
0:24:19 > 0:24:21I wanted to play football, he'd play with me.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24Played table tennis, he would play with me.
0:24:24 > 0:24:27What he done, I done. What I done, he done.
0:24:27 > 0:24:29It was like brother and... Two brothers.
0:24:31 > 0:24:36Four-year-old to what, 16-year-old, 17,
0:24:36 > 0:24:37just never left each other.
0:24:37 > 0:24:42I only knew Bobby Sands up until he was, like, 17.
0:24:44 > 0:24:48To be honest, I never thought he would end up as he did.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50I mean, it shocked me when I heard
0:24:50 > 0:24:54that Bobby Sands was on hunger strike and that.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57Well, he must have had the conviction of his ways
0:24:57 > 0:24:58to go on and do what he did.
0:24:58 > 0:25:00You have to respect him for that
0:25:00 > 0:25:02whether you respect his politics or not.
0:25:02 > 0:25:06But looking back to what Bobby Sands was when I knew him,
0:25:06 > 0:25:10at school he wasn't a particularly intelligent person and now,
0:25:10 > 0:25:14like, he's dead and he's written a book about Bobby Sands with poetry in it. Obviously...
0:25:14 > 0:25:18Bobby was, he was always intelligent, you know what I mean,
0:25:18 > 0:25:21but he was like myself. I mean, we were lazy at school,
0:25:21 > 0:25:23all we wanted to do was just play football.
0:25:23 > 0:25:27At times we spent more time picking football teams for matches than doing schoolwork.
0:25:27 > 0:25:31Like I said, the memories I've got of Bobby are happy ones
0:25:31 > 0:25:34and they're personal to myself, like, you know.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37He's just the same as the rest of us, you know.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41I remember Bobby Sands probably as,
0:25:41 > 0:25:45I felt, a fairly insecure...
0:25:50 > 0:25:53..person who would at times try to cover it up
0:25:53 > 0:25:57with violence on the football pitch or outside it,
0:25:57 > 0:26:02but certainly not, not a leader by any means.
0:26:02 > 0:26:07More a person who was led, all the time, not an innovator.
0:26:07 > 0:26:10More a follower. All the time.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13I met him afterwards,
0:26:13 > 0:26:18after he came out of jail the first time I met him.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21We were playing a match. I was still playing for Star Of The Sea
0:26:21 > 0:26:24and we were playing a match close to the estate that he lived in,
0:26:24 > 0:26:27and he came up and he talked to me.
0:26:27 > 0:26:31I was the only one still playing in the team that we'd played in
0:26:31 > 0:26:35in younger days and he came up and talked to me.
0:26:35 > 0:26:38Even though we knew each other,
0:26:38 > 0:26:40I was surprised that he came and talked to me.
0:26:40 > 0:26:43I didn't like him that much. I don't think he liked me.
0:26:43 > 0:26:46I must say, I thought there was a change in him whenever I met him at that stage.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49He seemed to be a different person to me when I met him then.
0:26:49 > 0:26:53- A nicer person? - Yes, a far nicer person.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56- What way?- He certainly seemed to be a warmer person
0:26:56 > 0:26:59and a more sincere person, a far more sincere person.
0:26:59 > 0:27:03I was surprised, I must say, pleasantly surprised
0:27:03 > 0:27:05whenever I met him after he came out of the jail first time.
0:27:05 > 0:27:08I can't remember, he did two years, something like that.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11But he seemed to be a better person after it.
0:27:11 > 0:27:14Certainly a far more settled person, probably a more secure person.
0:27:17 > 0:27:21Would you have thought in the early days in the team
0:27:21 > 0:27:24that he would become a hunger striker?
0:27:24 > 0:27:28Certainly not in the early days, no.
0:27:28 > 0:27:31I wouldn't have thought he'd have been the type of person
0:27:31 > 0:27:35to have high moral principles or been moved in that way.
0:27:36 > 0:27:40But to a certain extent, when I met him the second time...
0:27:41 > 0:27:45..after he came out of jail, he seemed to be a lot more settled person
0:27:45 > 0:27:50and someone who seemed to, who would have been the type of person
0:27:50 > 0:27:53who would have gone all the way with something.
0:27:53 > 0:27:56As far as I was concerned he was just a left-half, that was it.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59- What was he like?- As a footballer?
0:27:59 > 0:28:02A bit of a grafter, that was about it.
0:28:02 > 0:28:06- He done his best, I suppose. - So he wasn't that hot?- No.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08- Did he score goals?- No.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11- Never? - He was a good man to get the ball,
0:28:11 > 0:28:14he was a good winner of the ball, like, good tackler.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17He hadn't too much natural ability, I would say.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20And what about his nature - were you good friends?
0:28:22 > 0:28:25So-so, you know. Yes, we spoke, we got on OK like.
0:28:25 > 0:28:29If we were away anywhere, we got on OK, yeah.
0:28:29 > 0:28:31What about him and Michael Atcheson?
0:28:31 > 0:28:36Michael Atcheson is now in jail for Protestant paramilitary offences.
0:28:36 > 0:28:37Did they get on well?
0:28:37 > 0:28:39He was a right-half, to tell you the truth,
0:28:39 > 0:28:41so as regards football they got on OK!
0:28:41 > 0:28:43I'd say off the pitch they got on well enough too.
0:28:45 > 0:28:49Terry Nichol's stretch in the Maze overlapped with Bobby Sands' sentence.
0:28:49 > 0:28:55The UVF cages looked across to the nearby Republican compound, housing Sands.
0:28:55 > 0:29:01Both men then enjoyed what was later to be taken away from paramilitary prisoners
0:29:01 > 0:29:04and what Bobby Sands was later to die for -
0:29:04 > 0:29:06political prisoner status.
0:29:08 > 0:29:10What was it like in jail?
0:29:10 > 0:29:14Butlins. Holiday camp.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16In that sense, you didn't have to work.
0:29:16 > 0:29:19You were a political prisoner. "Special category" in the jail.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21We just called ourselves prisoners of war.
0:29:21 > 0:29:25We were loyalist prisoners of war, they were Republican prisoners of war.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27Bobby Sands was there at the same time. Did you see him?
0:29:27 > 0:29:29A couple of times.
0:29:29 > 0:29:34I was compound 12 and it faced onto the football pitch.
0:29:34 > 0:29:36Compound 11 on one side,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39they were loyalists, and 13 on the other side were Republicans,
0:29:39 > 0:29:43and he was down at the wire there, speaking to a couple of them ones.
0:29:43 > 0:29:47I remember one day I called him over and he refused to come.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50I think he didn't want his friends to know
0:29:50 > 0:29:54that he actually associated himself with any Protestants.
0:29:54 > 0:29:56He took a bit of coaxing.
0:29:56 > 0:30:00I was shouting at him and calling him names
0:30:00 > 0:30:04and he kept on looking round as if, looking at his friends to say,
0:30:04 > 0:30:06"Who's that? I don't really know him."
0:30:06 > 0:30:10But I was shouting his name, even his first name, Robert, and things like that.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12And one time he just shouted back,
0:30:12 > 0:30:16I forget it - I must have asked him about Tommy O'Neill,
0:30:16 > 0:30:20and he said that he was in England, and I asked where.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24He wouldn't answer, just went back and started playing football again.
0:30:24 > 0:30:27Was there no sense of friendship remaining
0:30:27 > 0:30:29from the Star Of The Sea football team?
0:30:29 > 0:30:34Some people, probably, yes, but I wouldn't have even have thought of smiling at Bobby Sands
0:30:34 > 0:30:36when I seen him in Long Kesh, you know?
0:30:36 > 0:30:40Other people I seen from Greencastle.
0:30:40 > 0:30:42They were there playing football.
0:30:42 > 0:30:46And Ginger Stewart, he'd come to the wire and was talking to him.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48He offered to make me...
0:30:49 > 0:30:52..an Irish harp if I would make him something in leather.
0:30:52 > 0:30:55They didn't do the leatherwork, and we were just standing talking
0:30:55 > 0:30:57and I would have stood and talked to him.
0:30:57 > 0:30:59He played for Star Of The Sea too,
0:30:59 > 0:31:02but he was maybe three, four, whatever years older than me,
0:31:02 > 0:31:04and he came through. He was talking away.
0:31:04 > 0:31:09But Sands had just turned completely, you know?
0:31:09 > 0:31:14I even think at the time we were playing football...
0:31:14 > 0:31:17Thinking back, I think he just sort of tolerated us
0:31:17 > 0:31:19because we were playing football.
0:31:19 > 0:31:23He didn't really want to get to know us well or be good friends, you know?
0:31:26 > 0:31:29Bobby Sands spent eight years of his life in prison.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32The first three, when Terry Nichol was also there,
0:31:32 > 0:31:34were for the possession of handguns.
0:31:34 > 0:31:39The government then recognised them both as special category prisoners.
0:31:39 > 0:31:43Sands lived in the IRA compound as a prisoner of war.
0:31:43 > 0:31:47He wore his own clothes and he did no prison work,
0:31:47 > 0:31:48but in 1976,
0:31:48 > 0:31:52this political prisoner status was withdrawn by the government.
0:31:52 > 0:31:57The paramilitaries were now to be treated as ordinary criminals.
0:31:57 > 0:32:01After his release, Bobby Sands was re-arrested almost immediately.
0:32:01 > 0:32:06This time, he got 14 years for the possession of a gun,
0:32:06 > 0:32:10but this time there were no political prisoner privileges.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12He went on the blanket protest,
0:32:12 > 0:32:15smearing the wall of his cell with excrement,
0:32:15 > 0:32:19but the government refused to restore political status.
0:32:19 > 0:32:24Bobby Sands went 66 days without food and starved himself to death.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28I supported the hunger strike.
0:32:30 > 0:32:33I supported the hunger strike...
0:32:33 > 0:32:36It's not because of the hunger strike, I supported Bobby Sands.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40Why?
0:32:40 > 0:32:42You know why. He was my friend.
0:32:42 > 0:32:45I supported, I...
0:32:45 > 0:32:48Most of the Catholic population supported the hunger strike.
0:32:48 > 0:32:51If you ask me, I supported Bobby Sands.
0:32:53 > 0:32:56I supported it the other blokes in it.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59What good did it do?
0:33:02 > 0:33:04People died over it.
0:33:04 > 0:33:06How do you feel about it now?
0:33:09 > 0:33:13Where did it get them lot? Hmm?
0:33:15 > 0:33:17What good's it done Bobby Sands?
0:33:19 > 0:33:22A friend of mine. A personal friend.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26And he's lying up in Milltown.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32Plus the other nine blokes are all dead too.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37I still supported him.
0:33:37 > 0:33:41It must have been a terrific shock to you personally.
0:33:41 > 0:33:45There is a man who is your friend for most of your life,
0:33:45 > 0:33:46a very, very close friend,
0:33:46 > 0:33:49and suddenly he's starving himself to death.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54Was it a terrific shock?
0:33:54 > 0:33:55Yeah.
0:33:55 > 0:33:58I prayed for Bobby Sands.
0:33:59 > 0:34:01Yes.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03It broke my heart when Bobby Sands died.
0:34:05 > 0:34:07Too good a friend to lose.
0:34:10 > 0:34:13Personally, if he wanted to die, let him die.
0:34:13 > 0:34:18At the start it was the loyalists, really, that got the political status
0:34:18 > 0:34:23for all prisoners and then in '77 or whatever, the government seen fit to take it off them,
0:34:23 > 0:34:27well, nobody wanted to go back to having to work in jail.
0:34:27 > 0:34:30Everybody still classed themselves as that.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33When he was going on the hunger strike, I would let him die.
0:34:33 > 0:34:37No thoughts about the man at all. If he wanted to do it, let him do it.
0:34:39 > 0:34:43The UVF was to gain another recruit from the Star Of The Sea -
0:34:43 > 0:34:44Michael Atcheson.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47In 1978, he gave himself up to the police
0:34:47 > 0:34:50after a Catholic was killed in a pub explosion.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53He told them he'd given the UVF information
0:34:53 > 0:34:56which helped them to plant the bomb,
0:34:56 > 0:34:59but this did not lead to a prosecution.
0:34:59 > 0:35:02Now, Michael Atcheson is in the H-blocks
0:35:02 > 0:35:04for a completely different offence -
0:35:04 > 0:35:0918 years for the malicious wounding of three Catholic workmen.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12He's in block H7 with other loyalist prisoners
0:35:12 > 0:35:17and he's one of a group of Christian, churchgoing loyalists.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20The Northern Ireland office did not allow him to be interviewed.
0:35:21 > 0:35:25When I heard about what he done, that was pretty...
0:35:25 > 0:35:28You know, it shocked me a lot. I didn't think, even...
0:35:28 > 0:35:33Cos I'd met Michael when I was home about four years ago
0:35:33 > 0:35:36and it was Christmas and I was standing at the bus stop
0:35:36 > 0:35:38and he came over and had a chat with me even then.
0:35:38 > 0:35:42You see, cos he'd just been married and he'd just moved into a flat
0:35:42 > 0:35:46in the same area as my sister whom I was staying with.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48Just a couple of doors away, and I had a chat with him
0:35:48 > 0:35:53and even then he didn't strike me as... This is after, actually, he would have done that.
0:35:53 > 0:35:57And he came over and says, "Nice to see you again. Where have you been?"
0:35:57 > 0:36:01You know, just general, you know, asking how I was keeping and things
0:36:01 > 0:36:05and he'd already committed that offence
0:36:05 > 0:36:07which led to him going to jail.
0:36:07 > 0:36:11It's amazing to think that he could have done that
0:36:11 > 0:36:14and that that was the same bloke that was standing talking to me,
0:36:14 > 0:36:15being so nice to me.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19You know, it's hard to fathom.
0:36:19 > 0:36:22What about Michael Atcheson?
0:36:23 > 0:36:27I think he was a hard player. He went to Morecambe to play football.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32- And then, from what I hear... - What happened?
0:36:33 > 0:36:36Well, I don't know, he's in Long Kesh, isn't he?
0:36:36 > 0:36:40Did you ever think then that he was the kind to get involved?
0:36:40 > 0:36:43No. You could have asked me the same thing about Bobby Sands.
0:36:43 > 0:36:47I never thought that about Bobby Sands, did I?
0:36:47 > 0:36:49- No, I never thought it, no. - Did you like Michael Atcheson?
0:36:49 > 0:36:53Oh, yeah. Very fond of him. A good friend of mine.
0:36:53 > 0:36:55Why, what were his qualities?
0:36:55 > 0:36:59A good footballer, we always talked together, went to dances together.
0:36:59 > 0:37:01Had a drink together.
0:37:01 > 0:37:04I never thought Michael was like that.
0:37:04 > 0:37:08I never thought Bobby Sands was like that either. You know, it's just...
0:37:08 > 0:37:10It's just hard to believe. The Troubles brought it on.
0:37:10 > 0:37:14I don't blame them - I just blame the Troubles.
0:37:14 > 0:37:16They just went their way, Bobby Sands went his way,
0:37:16 > 0:37:17Mickey went his way.
0:37:17 > 0:37:21It was Protestant-Catholic again, you see?
0:37:21 > 0:37:24What do you feel about somebody like Michael Atcheson?
0:37:24 > 0:37:26What do you feel about him now?
0:37:32 > 0:37:35- I feel bitter.- Do you?- Yeah.
0:37:39 > 0:37:44And much of Tommy O'Neill's bitterness is that he's stuck without a job
0:37:44 > 0:37:47in the Catholic ghetto of Ardoyne.
0:37:48 > 0:37:50Walled off by concrete and steel
0:37:50 > 0:37:53built to keep Catholics and Protestants apart.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00This is the way into Ardoyne,
0:38:00 > 0:38:05impeded by ramps and dwarfed by disused factories on either side.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13Visitors are easily observed.
0:38:21 > 0:38:24Leaving Ardoyne is more difficult.
0:38:24 > 0:38:29The exits are mostly closed off and the problem is finding a way out.
0:38:34 > 0:38:39Emigration's the only solution, but for most, that's impossible.
0:38:40 > 0:38:42I've thought about it.
0:38:42 > 0:38:44Australia.
0:38:44 > 0:38:48Maybe down south. Anywhere but here. This place is just...
0:38:50 > 0:38:53It's just a hell.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55Bringing up a child.
0:38:56 > 0:39:00What's he going to be like when he's my age?
0:39:00 > 0:39:02He may be dead by then.
0:39:02 > 0:39:06Bobby Sands is dead, he could be dead, too.
0:39:06 > 0:39:09Go the same way. Which I don't want.
0:39:15 > 0:39:18Raymond McCord has made it.
0:39:18 > 0:39:21He had one advantage over the rest -
0:39:21 > 0:39:25a skill. He's a welder by trade.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28It's not much use in a dying Belfast shipyard
0:39:28 > 0:39:31where there's so little work they've had to pay him off twice,
0:39:31 > 0:39:35but it's good enough to get him two firm job offers
0:39:35 > 0:39:39and a new life for himself and his family in Australia.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42There's no work here. I've been paid off twice
0:39:42 > 0:39:45in the last two years, the two firms I've worked for.
0:39:45 > 0:39:52The first firm closed down and the shipyard are laying men off.
0:39:52 > 0:39:54And also because of the Troubles,
0:39:54 > 0:39:58because there's no end to them
0:39:58 > 0:40:00and the politicians,
0:40:00 > 0:40:03they aren't doing much.
0:40:06 > 0:40:08The...
0:40:08 > 0:40:13I suppose they've tried a whole lot of different solutions,
0:40:13 > 0:40:16but I don't think there'll ever be a solution.
0:40:16 > 0:40:20I think eventually there'll be a civil war here.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23And you're not going to sit on the fence then,
0:40:23 > 0:40:25you're going to have to take one side or the other.
0:40:25 > 0:40:28Well, I left Northern Ireland because of the situation.
0:40:28 > 0:40:31Because I was a Protestant playing in a Catholic youth club,
0:40:31 > 0:40:34living in a Catholic area. All my mates were Catholic.
0:40:34 > 0:40:38The Catholic lads didn't mind, but what it meant,
0:40:38 > 0:40:41socialising with the Protestants and socialising with the Catholics,
0:40:41 > 0:40:44it meant I was going to areas where I shouldn't go.
0:40:44 > 0:40:47I was going to discotheques on the New Lodge Road,
0:40:47 > 0:40:50which is a Catholic area, one night, the next night,
0:40:50 > 0:40:52going out with Protestant mates,
0:40:52 > 0:40:56going to an area which is just three streets away, Tiger's Bay.
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Going to Loyalist clubs in that area and, I mean,
0:40:59 > 0:41:01if someone had have seen,
0:41:01 > 0:41:04if they're thinking, "What's this bloke trying to do?"
0:41:04 > 0:41:05I'm breaking all the rules,
0:41:05 > 0:41:08and obviously you don't want to lose friends,
0:41:08 > 0:41:11so I thought the best thing for me is, get out. So I left.
0:41:11 > 0:41:15It's not a community that I would like to leave,
0:41:15 > 0:41:17and I wouldn't leave it easily
0:41:17 > 0:41:24and certainly I'm not disillusioned by the situation or the people.
0:41:24 > 0:41:27Will you be happy bringing up your children in Northern Ireland?
0:41:27 > 0:41:30Uh...
0:41:30 > 0:41:35Yes. Because I'd like to think that my son will go and play
0:41:35 > 0:41:39for Star Of The Sea in a few years' time. And he certainly will.
0:41:42 > 0:41:44He's only five months old at the moment.
0:41:44 > 0:41:48And he doesn't know it yet, but I'd like to think that he would.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51It's said that you were the strongest player on the team.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54You could have been First Division material,
0:41:54 > 0:41:57that's what people have said about you. Did you ever try?
0:41:57 > 0:42:00- I went to Blackpool.- What happened?
0:42:00 > 0:42:03Nothing.
0:42:03 > 0:42:07- Just didn't materialise.- Why not?
0:42:07 > 0:42:10Just wasn't good enough. Or Wolves.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13- Didn't go.- Why didn't you go?
0:42:13 > 0:42:15I just lost heart after Blackpool.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18You were so depressed that you weren't good enough in Blackpool
0:42:18 > 0:42:20that you didn't go to Wolves?
0:42:20 > 0:42:22Yeah.
0:42:22 > 0:42:26Just lost interest in the game after that. That was it.
0:42:26 > 0:42:31- What do you think of that now? - Oh, I regret it.- Do you?- Oh, yeah.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34Do you think you could have made it?
0:42:34 > 0:42:37Are you trying to make me a big head or something, like?
0:42:37 > 0:42:39No, but face your qualities.
0:42:39 > 0:42:42I mean, people have said that you were a very, very good player.
0:42:44 > 0:42:46No.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49That's honest.
0:42:54 > 0:42:55No.
0:42:57 > 0:42:59Whatever Tommy O'Neill's talents,
0:42:59 > 0:43:04even if he really did have the makings of a professional footballer,
0:43:04 > 0:43:11the chances of getting out at a time when everyone's energies were spent taking sides were slim.
0:43:11 > 0:43:13The fact that three of the team went to jail
0:43:13 > 0:43:17and that one died on hunger strike does not now, looking back,
0:43:17 > 0:43:22surprise Dr Denis Sweeney. No-one was immune.
0:43:22 > 0:43:24Well, there were...
0:43:24 > 0:43:29There was no-one in Belfast at that stage during those times
0:43:29 > 0:43:32that didn't come close to getting involved,
0:43:32 > 0:43:35or very close to getting involved in the various organisations.
0:43:35 > 0:43:40It would have been practically impossible
0:43:40 > 0:43:43to live in working-class districts
0:43:43 > 0:43:49and not have been either approached or become directly involved.
0:43:49 > 0:43:52Well, then, what was the factor
0:43:52 > 0:43:56that meant that some got into trouble and others didn't?
0:43:58 > 0:43:59I...
0:44:01 > 0:44:05I would always feel that they were probably the unlucky ones
0:44:05 > 0:44:11rather than any preconceived master plan that they might have had
0:44:11 > 0:44:16to become heroes of their various groups, but not...
0:44:19 > 0:44:23I don't think that there was anything intrinsically evil
0:44:23 > 0:44:26about the guys who became involved or, basically,
0:44:26 > 0:44:28very good about the guys who didn't.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31So, Bobby Sands dying on hunger strike,
0:44:31 > 0:44:35Michael Atcheson in jail now. That was just bad luck?
0:44:35 > 0:44:37I would think it's bad luck, yeah.
0:44:37 > 0:44:42Considering the situation there is in Northern Ireland at the moment.
0:44:42 > 0:44:46It's awful bad luck. They...
0:44:48 > 0:44:52You know, certainly, there but for the grace of God go I, really.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55What about the team? How many of them do you still see?
0:44:55 > 0:44:59Very few. As I said, I moved away from where most of them were, like,
0:44:59 > 0:45:01to be honest with you, but I've seen a few of them.
0:45:01 > 0:45:05I've seen nearly them all from who have left, to be honest with you, like.
0:45:05 > 0:45:07But, as I say, I don't really keep in contact with them.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10The last ones really was McCord. We played football together, you know?
0:45:10 > 0:45:13We were a team in the amateur league, but that was about it.
0:45:13 > 0:45:17- You're still friends with Raymond? - Yeah. I still see, like, Nichol and that again.
0:45:17 > 0:45:21I've seen Sweeney once since he became the doctor, like, you know,
0:45:21 > 0:45:22but that's about it.
0:45:22 > 0:45:26Would you have liked to remain stronger friends with them?
0:45:26 > 0:45:27The rest of the team?
0:45:31 > 0:45:33Yeah.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36Do you ever see any of the people in the team?
0:45:36 > 0:45:38It's ten years since I've seen anyone.
0:45:38 > 0:45:41Never. They've all went astray.
0:45:43 > 0:45:46- Would you like to? - Yeah, I'd love to.
0:45:46 > 0:45:51Just to see them for old times' sake, plus at the same time
0:45:51 > 0:45:55the Troubles are still in the back of my mind for me in Rathcoole.
0:45:55 > 0:45:58Do you think your relationship with the Protestant members of the team
0:45:58 > 0:46:01could be the same as it was before the Troubles?
0:46:06 > 0:46:08I'd like to think it, but I can't.
0:46:08 > 0:46:11- Could you play football with them again?- No.
0:46:15 > 0:46:19I can't play football with people that left my mother with a scar.
0:46:19 > 0:46:22For no reason at all. Broke our windows.
0:46:22 > 0:46:25Would you play football? Jeez...
0:46:25 > 0:46:27No way.
0:46:27 > 0:46:32For no reason at all. They've done no harm. No harm to nobody.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35And you want me to play football with them again? Never.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39John! Ciaran!
0:46:41 > 0:46:43Come on, come on!
0:46:47 > 0:46:48Mark, mark, mark!
0:46:49 > 0:46:54Good boy, Colin. Well back, son. Good covering.
0:46:54 > 0:46:55Ciaran!
0:46:58 > 0:47:02- Close, close! Just close them! - Unlucky.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08Well played, Cia1ran.