:00:34. > :00:38.Is te Scottish game on the road to recovery? Or have our football
:00:38. > :00:41.fortunes still to bottom out? Where has it all gone wrong? And do we
:00:41. > :00:44.have the right plans in place to put it right? Let's see if we can
:00:44. > :00:47.get some answers to Scottish football's problems in the next 50
:00:47. > :00:49.minutes. With the help of Scotland manager Craig Levein, SFA chief
:00:49. > :00:51.executive Stewart Regan, Hibs chairman Rod Petrie, Falkirk
:00:51. > :00:54.manager Steven Pressley and last night's documentary maker Jim
:00:54. > :01:02.Traynor. And lots of other football people with us tonight, all of whom
:01:02. > :01:07.have a vested interest in getting football back on track. This is a
:01:07. > :01:17.critical time for Scottish football. Our last World Cup outing is 14
:01:17. > :01:17.
:01:17. > :01:22.years old. Our clubs have fallen down the football rankings. Moves
:01:22. > :01:27.had been made to improve our footballing fortunes. A wind of
:01:27. > :01:29.change is blowing through the game. Central to its future is finding
:01:29. > :01:39.more young footballers and developing their talents in the
:01:39. > :01:44.right way. Football has lots of other big issues - finance,
:01:44. > :01:50.facilities, the structure and running of the game, and its
:01:50. > :01:54.popularity with supporters. We all have plenty of questions, let's try
:01:54. > :01:57.and get some answers. Since our football documentary and this
:01:57. > :02:00.debate were lined up, the Rangers crisis has blown up and we can't
:02:00. > :02:02.open up a discussion about the big issues in the Scottish game without
:02:02. > :02:12.touching on the impact Rangers' financial problems have right
:02:12. > :02:12.
:02:13. > :02:16.around the country. Stuart Lovell is with us from PFA
:02:16. > :02:22.Scotland. You were at Murray Park today to witness what must be a
:02:22. > :02:29.painful process? It certainly has. A lot of people have tried to come
:02:29. > :02:32.to terms with the fact a lot of clubs in the UK are in
:02:32. > :02:38.administration. A lot of players have handled themselves extremely
:02:38. > :02:42.well over the last few weeks and that is starting to hit home that
:02:42. > :02:48.this club is in a dire situation and there having to make massive
:02:48. > :02:52.compromises to keep the players. it has been slow and agonising, has
:02:52. > :02:58.it not been, before the administrators do what they have to
:02:58. > :03:03.do? The administrators have a job to do but a difficult one, to make
:03:03. > :03:09.sure their run the club and avoid putting up -- totting up any more
:03:09. > :03:13.losses. Their responsibility is to keep the club on an even keel. From
:03:13. > :03:18.our perspective, the players' union, we're trying to make sure the
:03:18. > :03:24.playing staff is kept together. The talks have been ongoing for a good
:03:24. > :03:27.while now. We would argue that is the right thing to do and we have
:03:28. > :03:31.to praise the administrators that they wanted to at least hear what
:03:31. > :03:36.we had to say on behalf of the players and hopefully we will find
:03:36. > :03:46.a compromise. Jim Traynor, two players have gone on Palais, what
:03:46. > :03:55.happens next? For -- von Halle. I think some of the players who are
:03:55. > :04:02.expected to take these massive cuts, the high earners, 75%, middle
:04:02. > :04:07.earners, 50%. Even if you're an a high-wage, and 75% reduction is
:04:07. > :04:12.massive, but these will keep job losses to a minimum. One of the
:04:12. > :04:16.delays today has been that the players are saying, if we do this,
:04:16. > :04:19.and save some jobs, which we are willing to do, then we want
:04:19. > :04:25.something changed in our contract which says that when the transfer
:04:25. > :04:31.window opens in the summer, the club can set a fee and if that is
:04:31. > :04:34.offered, the club cannot prevent them from leaving. The new owner
:04:34. > :04:39.could not prevent them because then they could get their money back.
:04:39. > :04:43.What is the impact of this on Scottish football as a whole?
:04:43. > :04:47.Obviously, a difficult time for Scottish football and Rangers are a
:04:47. > :04:51.big club. It pits the game under pressure and it has to be viewed
:04:51. > :04:55.negatively. What we're trying to do his work alongside the
:04:55. > :05:01.administrators to understand the issue. We have our own independent
:05:01. > :05:06.inquiry taking place as to what has happened at Rangers. Unfortunately,
:05:06. > :05:11.I am not able to con -- comment on the detail of that. We're hoping
:05:11. > :05:17.for a positive outcome for all concerned. Neil Doncaster, lots of
:05:17. > :05:23.inquiries on going just now. Too little, too late? From our point of
:05:23. > :05:26.view, all of the evidence has been given and the tax case and we are
:05:26. > :05:31.in a position where the SPL board can set its own inquiry. That is
:05:31. > :05:38.now under way. It is difficult to comment at the moment about that.
:05:38. > :05:42.That inquiry fault be resolved as quickly as possible and as soon as
:05:43. > :05:47.we ever position to comment, we'll do so. Could one of the controlling
:05:47. > :05:51.bodies not have had more of an influence and averted this?
:05:51. > :05:56.point of it is, it has been alleged there is a has been a non-
:05:56. > :06:00.disclosure that perhaps should have been picked upon. It is important
:06:00. > :06:06.we give the inquiry time to take place and if a breach of our rules
:06:06. > :06:13.is discovered, we will act on it. Lots of clubs are being impacted,
:06:14. > :06:17.one of them being your club, Dundee United. These are sad times for up
:06:17. > :06:22.Glasgow Rangers just now but we hope that somewhere along the line,
:06:22. > :06:26.some good can come of it. We have to worry about the people losing
:06:26. > :06:31.their jobs and that is hopefully kept to a minimum. We need a strong
:06:31. > :06:35.Rangers and Celtic for the SPL and Scottish football. What we have
:06:35. > :06:42.already seen as a lot of people saying that the game would survive
:06:42. > :06:48.and of course it would without Rangers. Here we have three clubs
:06:48. > :06:53.already, Hearts and unfair one, affected by the financial Troubles.
:06:53. > :07:01.-- Dunfermline. Those who think the game can thrive without Rangers or
:07:01. > :07:05.Celtic for that matter, one of the big two, this should tell and
:07:05. > :07:10.warned everybody what it would be like if they're not with us.
:07:10. > :07:14.you concerned about how this was allowed to happen? How insight is a
:07:14. > :07:19.wonderful thing. It is easy to look back and say, what if? It is
:07:19. > :07:23.important to establish the facts and as Neil Doncaster said, the
:07:23. > :07:27.independent inquiry is looking into what happened and when they get to
:07:27. > :07:30.the bottom of that, if it has been found there is a breach of her
:07:30. > :07:35.articles, we will take the appropriate sanctions. It is
:07:35. > :07:38.important that that process is a letter continued. There will be
:07:38. > :07:43.stuffed to learn afterwards and there will be articles to say what
:07:43. > :07:48.we can do differently in the future. If there is non-disclosure of
:07:48. > :07:53.information that should have been disclosed, it is difficult to go
:07:53. > :07:58.back and say, how could we have found that out sooner, without
:07:58. > :08:04.undertaking huge investigations into every director across Scottish
:08:04. > :08:08.football. Their stuff to be learned but we have to get the facts first.
:08:08. > :08:12.Rob Petrie, some people are inevitably the lighting and this at
:08:13. > :08:16.the moment. Does Scottish football need Rangers? Scottish football
:08:16. > :08:22.needs successful clubs which are well managed and a lot of clubs and
:08:22. > :08:28.the SPL have taken their own share of pain and budgets. I think this
:08:28. > :08:37.needs to be maintained throughout, integrity, to ensure the
:08:37. > :08:40.competition is there. Each club has its own budget and own resources
:08:40. > :08:48.and the important thing is the sporting integrity and making sure
:08:48. > :08:53.the competition is balanced and fair. We will see Rangers continue
:08:53. > :08:57.to play with a depleted squad again SCOP -- clubs which they played
:08:57. > :09:01.with a stronger squad. We need to ensure fixtures are for fault and
:09:01. > :09:05.that is fair and balanced. -- fulfilled. Watching Scotland
:09:05. > :09:08.play in major tournament finals has become a distant memory. It used to
:09:08. > :09:18.be a happy habit. World Cup 1998 was the last one. That's 14 years
:09:18. > :09:37.
:09:37. > :09:46.and counting. What a goal by Strachan! To McCoist,
:09:46. > :09:56.it's a goal for Scotland! That Craig Burley, he's done it! 1-1.
:09:56. > :10:07.
:10:07. > :10:11.Don Hutchison! Scotland have We should bottle that, that does
:10:11. > :10:19.you good. Was it complacency about qualification which prompted the
:10:19. > :10:23.slump? It is difficult to say exactly what the problem was. You
:10:23. > :10:28.have to remember, some of those qualifications were done by the
:10:28. > :10:33.skin of Our teeth. I do not think we have been strong qualifiers for
:10:33. > :10:37.a while now. There has been a steady decline. The challenge now
:10:37. > :10:41.is for everybody in this room to get us back in that position where
:10:42. > :10:46.we are regularly qualifying. The king back on it, I think we can
:10:46. > :10:50.recognise we where punching above her weight for some time, to
:10:51. > :10:54.qualify for so many call up -- competitions. That is where we want
:10:54. > :11:00.to be. Football is a national team and we want to be playing at the
:11:00. > :11:04.top table. We need the support of everybody pulling together. Does
:11:05. > :11:11.this laid down the ranking give us tougher groups and then the
:11:11. > :11:16.qualification each time that little bit more difficult? I think what is
:11:16. > :11:20.important for me is that there is a realisation or a recognition that
:11:20. > :11:25.we can alter some things in Scottish football to give us better
:11:25. > :11:32.chances of qualifying. I feel that we have had the bottom and are on
:11:32. > :11:37.the way back up again. The points he made at the start, certainly we
:11:37. > :11:45.have been improving. I see better- quality players coming into the
:11:45. > :11:50.group now that I have. I am very hopeful for the future. I get to
:11:50. > :11:54.see it at the coalface and work with the players. I am very pleased
:11:54. > :12:01.with the way things have been going. A former Scotland player, Stephen
:12:01. > :12:05.Pressley, do you share that optimism? First, what we must
:12:05. > :12:10.recognise is that we often refer to the glory years of Scotland as the
:12:10. > :12:15.late 1960s, the Seventies. During that period, we did not qualify for
:12:15. > :12:19.any major tournaments and they must remember that. I am of the opinion
:12:19. > :12:24.that we have bottomed out. Through all of the difficulties with
:12:24. > :12:28.regards to financial plates of many clubs, one real positive will be
:12:28. > :12:31.that many clubs will look back to their young players and the
:12:31. > :12:36.development there, and I think at this moment in time, we have seen
:12:36. > :12:45.some very good young players coming through. I believe it is the only
:12:45. > :12:50.I think, when the Premier League was introduced in England, there
:12:50. > :12:54.was a desire to bring in a lot of foreign players from overseas. We
:12:54. > :12:59.saw Arsenal, at one point, a few years ago, playing 11 foreigners in
:12:59. > :13:02.the team. A lot of foreigners coming in. In my opinion that kept
:13:02. > :13:08.Scot lads out of the team. They weren't playing regular football at
:13:08. > :13:13.the highest level. The downturn in the economy has given players an
:13:13. > :13:17.opportunity, Stevens played a number of young lads at Falkirk and
:13:17. > :13:21.their game is getting better. That is helping Craig in building a
:13:21. > :13:26.strong squad for the future. went through a period when we were
:13:26. > :13:31.bringing in foreign players to our own game, our own teams. They
:13:31. > :13:35.weren't particularly good. Like in Rangers case, they may have to pay
:13:35. > :13:39.for that not. They were awash with foreign players who were not
:13:39. > :13:42.particularly talented. That kept Scottish players out. They had no
:13:43. > :13:47.chance of coming through any system and going down south. They couldn't
:13:47. > :13:51.get into their own teams because we were playing second and third rate
:13:51. > :13:55.foreigners. That was wrong. concern on that, if there is a
:13:55. > :14:00.reason of financial stability and income to club clubs that we revert
:14:00. > :14:04.back to that. Unless now we make major changes in our game. I don't
:14:04. > :14:07.think we should go back down that road. You can't say though, because
:14:07. > :14:14.of we are in the European Union, you can't say you can't come and
:14:14. > :14:18.play here or work here. You can't do that. We can use common sense
:14:18. > :14:22.and look at our own young players and think, two seasons, properly
:14:22. > :14:27.nurtured through in and out of the team he will be good as that person
:14:27. > :14:33.you are looking to spend money on. We have a tendency to forget the
:14:33. > :14:37.experiences of today. The plight of Rangers we will forget that quickly
:14:37. > :14:41.and we move and never make change. I will give you a copy of that
:14:41. > :14:45.documentary and can you play that. The new performance strategy that
:14:45. > :14:50.the Scottish FA recognises the need for home-grown talent and rewards
:14:50. > :14:56.the clubs trying to bring players through their own academy system.
:14:56. > :15:00.The man tasked with making major changes in the Scottish game is
:15:00. > :15:04.here, how soon will we see the fruits of your labour? We are
:15:04. > :15:08.starting a project with 12-year- olds. You have to wait at least
:15:08. > :15:12.eight years. We are intensifying the programme for the current young
:15:12. > :15:17.players with better programmes. We are trying to achieve more
:15:17. > :15:22.academies to do a better job. I'm positive we will see some results.
:15:22. > :15:27.The big change will come in maybe five, six, seven years. In the past
:15:27. > :15:32.we didn't have to put too much thought into producing good players.
:15:32. > :15:35.Great players they seemingly rolled off an assembly line. Not any more.
:15:35. > :15:40.Youth development has become a big issue and a big challenge. Nobody
:15:40. > :15:44.could argue that the standard of player at clubs isn't as good as it
:15:44. > :15:50.was even five years ago or ten years ago. We don't have to go back
:15:50. > :15:56.20 years. Five years. The life blood is young players. They can
:15:56. > :16:01.grow to be real assets. That helps football clubs. Money changes over.
:16:01. > :16:05.Had hasn't been common place in the last few years. The use of the
:16:05. > :16:10.academy you spend a lot of money, if we want to survive we have to
:16:10. > :16:17.get every time new players. I don't think schools help either. For me,
:16:17. > :16:22.you do maybe one or two sessions of physical education a week. You are
:16:22. > :16:27.there four, five, six times doing maths and English. If you forgot
:16:27. > :16:32.your PE kit there wasn't much said. If you went to maths and didn't do
:16:32. > :16:35.anything, you were sent to the headmaster. It's not enough.
:16:35. > :16:42.Society has become more affluent. Football is not the beall and end
:16:42. > :16:46.all in a lot of young people's lives. Have the computer generation
:16:46. > :16:50.and mobile phone generation. The kids have to get interested in
:16:50. > :16:55.football again. You spoke about it in the documentary last night. How
:16:55. > :16:58.badly have we been getting it wrong with youth development? Not so
:16:58. > :17:02.wrong. There are always talented players in any country, it's how
:17:02. > :17:07.you want to develop them and how you bring them up in good
:17:07. > :17:11.facilities in a good environment with the right philosophy. This is
:17:12. > :17:18.were we can win. What are the right things? What are the wrong things?
:17:18. > :17:22.If you are working with kids it's not about winning, but developing
:17:22. > :17:26.skills and basic skills, technique and awareness. I'm not sure
:17:26. > :17:30.everybody understands that if you see the behaviour of parents and
:17:30. > :17:37.coaches along the line. They only want to win, it doesn't matter how.
:17:37. > :17:41.You have to work from a philosophy to develop players to the top level.
:17:41. > :17:45.Intensify training programmes and make them train on better
:17:45. > :17:49.facilities. That is essential. people understand what a
:17:49. > :17:55.performance strategy is? I'm not sure they do. I agree with the
:17:55. > :18:02.point Mark made. I notice in Jim's documentary last night, there was
:18:02. > :18:07.an interesting quote from the St Mirren striker, Steven tau Thomson
:18:07. > :18:10.talking about when he was a kid, "I don't remember emphasis on
:18:10. > :18:15.technique". I don't think anything has changed. I have a young lad of
:18:15. > :18:19.eight who is playing with a team in Edinburgh. I can only reinforce the
:18:19. > :18:24.point that Mark made, it's about results. Even Attapatu that age
:18:24. > :18:29.they are interested in winning than working out about technique. I wish
:18:29. > :18:33.people would reinforce the word "pass". Try and get them to pass
:18:33. > :18:37.and pass and pass again. There is still this attitude from the
:18:37. > :18:42.coaches which is, you know, even though this is only under 9s, we
:18:42. > :18:47.still have to win. You are talking about changing a philosophy?
:18:47. > :18:51.Passing is better than to kick the ball away. It's important they are
:18:51. > :18:55.allowed to dribble. That they are allowed to show their qualities
:18:55. > :19:00.that they can make their own decisions to establish a better
:19:00. > :19:04.awareness. The top players are all clever players. They are not...
:19:04. > :19:10.It's not only about technique, which is the most important thing,
:19:10. > :19:15.it's about decision making. If you shout at kids, "do this, do that",
:19:15. > :19:19.they will not make their own decisions. Having done that
:19:19. > :19:23.documentary we did one 20 years ago, that is why we re-visited. 20 years
:19:23. > :19:28.ago when we did it, you got the impression that because things were
:19:28. > :19:32.going along nicely, we were qualifying for major finals, that
:19:32. > :19:37.they were saying, we will do this and we will do that. There wasn't
:19:37. > :19:41.really a will. You got that impression. This time, I must say,
:19:41. > :19:46.I think there is a greater consensus that maybe it's because
:19:46. > :19:50.we bottomed out. There is a greater consensus among everybody, the
:19:50. > :19:55.governing bodies, and the clubs, to get together and do something about
:19:55. > :19:59.this. I think that is the thing that encourages them. That is the
:19:59. > :20:04.most important thing for me, having been involved in club management
:20:04. > :20:09.and moving to the SFA. There hasn't been a great relationship between
:20:09. > :20:12.the clubs and SFA. This has been part of the problem. The SFA are
:20:12. > :20:16.important in Scottish football, the clubs are important in Scottish
:20:16. > :20:21.football. We can't have one working towards a goal and the other not.
:20:21. > :20:25.This, for the first time, the two organisations... That is what I
:20:25. > :20:29.found doing that programme. I always believe, I know clubs have
:20:29. > :20:32.their own agendas and they have to look after themselves, we have a
:20:32. > :20:37.greater responsibility. Nothing, nothing does it for the entire
:20:38. > :20:44.country like the national team succeeding. Falkirk have gone down
:20:44. > :20:47.the road of developing uer own players. Is that what you wanted to
:20:47. > :20:52.do or financial necessity? A little bit of both. We were forced down
:20:52. > :20:57.that road because of the financial plight of the football club. The
:20:57. > :21:02.Academy had been put in place for seven years. It takes seven or
:21:02. > :21:07.eight years, like Mark says, before you see the fruits of that. The one
:21:07. > :21:11.thing I will say, I disgreet with Stuart. There we are doing things
:21:11. > :21:15.right at grassroot level. Many clubs are working properly in the
:21:15. > :21:18.development of the young player in teaching them the correct habits.
:21:18. > :21:22.There can be further improvement. I think one of the problems as well
:21:22. > :21:25.is not in the development of the young player, but when they come to
:21:25. > :21:29.a more senior level, we must continue that development and
:21:29. > :21:33.continue that philosophy in asking the players to play in the same way
:21:33. > :21:36.as they have been taught within the system. What generally happens in
:21:37. > :21:41.Scotland is they are schooled in the manner to pass the ball at a
:21:41. > :21:46.young age. When it comes to the top end of the game, we win at all
:21:46. > :21:51.costs. We win at all costs. This is one of the arguments I have with
:21:51. > :21:57.regards the largest league structure in Orde not to have such
:21:57. > :22:02.a degree of pressure on managers to win at all costs. It takes time to
:22:02. > :22:06.implement a philosophy. That is not relistic. I disagree. When it comes
:22:06. > :22:11.to the top level. A manager is employed by a football club, the
:22:11. > :22:15.job is to win. That is the manager's job. Now... The point I'm
:22:15. > :22:22.making. Some managers, whether you agree with it or disagree with it,
:22:22. > :22:29.win by playing the long ball game. Some managers win by playing like
:22:29. > :22:31.Barcelona. For me, development of players is giving the player all of
:22:31. > :22:35.the tools necessary to play whatever style of football the
:22:35. > :22:39.manager at a particular club wants them to play. So, it's development
:22:39. > :22:44.that I believe we are talking about here. I disagree with that. I think
:22:44. > :22:48.there is a correct way to play the game. You and I both agree we like
:22:48. > :22:54.to see football played... Absolutely. Managers, when they get
:22:54. > :22:58.a job, the pressure on them is to win. Of course. If they don't win
:22:58. > :23:03.within a certain period of time they get moved on. For me, the
:23:03. > :23:07.players have to be capable. That is a development job. Capable with
:23:07. > :23:12.every style. Mark made reference to the long ball game, we don't want
:23:12. > :23:17.to teach them that. If we want to school them in a certain manner.
:23:17. > :23:20.When it comes to top level football we must play in that manner. If a
:23:20. > :23:24.manager wants to because he is under pressure, doesn't want to,
:23:24. > :23:28.but feels he must, it's the only way, maybe he is panicking, he
:23:28. > :23:33.thinks that is the way I will get results against this team. If it's
:23:33. > :23:39.a long ball. We play a long ball the player can't control it. If you
:23:39. > :23:43.have the tools you will be able to do that. It won't be attractive.
:23:43. > :23:46.can all find young players and educate them and bring them through
:23:47. > :23:53.academies it's the integration into the first team. What happens at
:23:53. > :23:57.that point? Absolutely. To our shame we did away with the reserve
:23:57. > :24:01.league which was a steppingstone before going into the first team.
:24:01. > :24:05.We need to join that up again to get an opportunity for these
:24:05. > :24:13.players to get a proper path way into the first team. It's down to
:24:13. > :24:18.the individual manager... If we are failing anywhere... I'm encouraged
:24:18. > :24:22.because everybody I spoke to in that documentary, there was that
:24:22. > :24:27.consensus we should do it this way. Were we are failing, you may say
:24:27. > :24:30.it's a government problem, it's a social problem, it is, football is
:24:30. > :24:35.part of the social fabric of the country, the life blood was the
:24:35. > :24:40.schemes in the streets, which we don't have, obviously. We skill is
:24:41. > :24:46.have the schemes. We have social exclusion and social deprivation.
:24:46. > :24:50.So many families living below the poverty line. Football is becoming
:24:50. > :24:54.a middle-class sport. The kids in the scheme can't afford it play
:24:54. > :24:58.football. If we gave them back somehow, even through the schools,
:24:58. > :25:08.it gives them something to aspire to, something to believe in. I
:25:08. > :25:10.
:25:10. > :25:14.think that football has a Can I get to John Murray. Was your
:25:14. > :25:20.job but Hearts in producing young players submerged for a while with
:25:20. > :25:25.the big influx of foreign talent there? We had five Academy players
:25:25. > :25:29.playing against Rangers on Saturday. Has the climate changed
:25:29. > :25:39.considerably? It has and will drastically change in the next 18
:25:39. > :25:46.months as well. The. Jim Traynor made about their schemes, you have
:25:46. > :25:56.400,000 kids playing football. Very few are playing football on the
:25:56. > :25:57.
:25:57. > :26:01.schemes. I think the issue is wider than that. I think Scotland's lost
:26:01. > :26:06.its way as far as children are concerned and sport, never mind
:26:06. > :26:09.football. If you look at schools across Scotland at the moment, we
:26:09. > :26:16.struggle to get two hours of physical activity per week in at
:26:16. > :26:19.school. It is fine to talk about developing a meet players but they
:26:19. > :26:23.get the gene pool of players which will become elite, they have to be
:26:23. > :26:27.doing exercise on a regular basis. They have to have a routine and
:26:27. > :26:32.have to be encouraged and it starts for me at school. We have to get
:26:32. > :26:39.back to basics and have more physical activities in schools.
:26:39. > :26:43.speak to Tom Smith from Hutchison Vale. Is your club, or other clubs
:26:43. > :26:48.like cures, given her rightful place in the structure of the game?
:26:48. > :26:52.I do not think so. When all the changes were made when the new
:26:52. > :27:00.system came in in 1989, we had applied, because we would rather
:27:00. > :27:03.not play for trophies. We work hard at a grassroots level. The years
:27:03. > :27:09.between six and 12 I would say are the golden learned the years for
:27:09. > :27:14.children. What we would rather do best not to play for trophies. We
:27:14. > :27:22.would rather produce the players without the pressure of having to
:27:22. > :27:26.when, as Stuart Lovell said earlier. What we do is we have a for a side,
:27:26. > :27:34.six-a-side system, where the ball was not allowed off the surface.
:27:34. > :27:39.What you're trying to do in at all football education is empower the
:27:39. > :27:45.child. The hard work is done in the training ground and it is about
:27:45. > :27:51.letting a -- taking a step back and letting them make mistakes, because
:27:51. > :27:55.that is a part of development. We talked about Rangers at the
:27:55. > :27:58.start of the programme but they're not the only club with financial
:27:58. > :28:07.issues. Bet is widespread at the top of the game and money matters
:28:07. > :28:12.more than ever before. If I went to my chairman and said,
:28:12. > :28:16.I want to take a player in, there is frustration if be directed
:28:16. > :28:22.towards youth development. I have every sympathy with our clubs have
:28:22. > :28:25.to stretch those finances as much as possible. We work in an economic
:28:25. > :28:32.climate that is very difficult to compete with other clubs. When I
:28:32. > :28:38.first came to this team, we could compete with the Premiership but
:28:38. > :28:43.that is gone now. We do not have the advertising or hospitality of a
:28:43. > :28:46.few years ago, and that is all clubs. We are badly affected by the
:28:46. > :28:51.economic situation the country finds itself in.
:28:52. > :28:57.A man who keeps a close eye on Scottish football finances is Neil
:28:57. > :29:01.Patey. What is the current broad picture among Scotland's top
:29:01. > :29:04.football clubs? It may seem strange given these last few weeks but if
:29:04. > :29:07.you look at the last decade, Scottish football is in a better
:29:07. > :29:16.position than the first half of the decade the King that profitability
:29:16. > :29:19.or debt levels. This apparent the deal falling over, the recession
:29:19. > :29:22.hitting has caused the situation for the last few years, but they
:29:22. > :29:26.are doing better than at the start of the decade when the ever more
:29:26. > :29:31.clubs facing administration. We're not too bad. Perform more
:29:31. > :29:35.efficiently at the moment but some of them carrying big debts? Yes.
:29:35. > :29:42.The worry is that clubs have got better at adapting to declining
:29:42. > :29:50.turnover and cutting the cost base. Do you get into a downward spiral?
:29:50. > :29:55.Can club somehow be creative at the top level so that they can start
:29:55. > :30:00.increasing revenue? We have spoken of SPL clubs, what about clubs and
:30:00. > :30:02.the Scottish Football League? Are the cutting profitability? I am
:30:02. > :30:09.glad you mentioned the Scottish Football League because we're the
:30:09. > :30:14.biggest organisation in terms of delivery of football. We have two
:30:14. > :30:22.national cup competitions, under 17 and Under 19 spitball, so we punch
:30:22. > :30:27.above our weight. -- football. Most other clubs are having to live
:30:27. > :30:31.within their means because there is no other choice. There is no
:30:31. > :30:35.television income. Her window to the world is the press and we thank
:30:35. > :30:39.them for all they do and the money that does come into the Scottish
:30:39. > :30:43.Football League. We're doing a lot behind the scenes to ensure that
:30:43. > :30:47.the SPL continues to punch above its weight bringing in as much as
:30:48. > :30:53.we can from government and other facilities through sponsorship, and
:30:53. > :30:58.focusing very heavily on the community. There are only two clubs
:30:58. > :31:04.in Scotland who can actually sell out side of their town. The
:31:04. > :31:07.marketing opportunity for small clubs is within their community.
:31:07. > :31:13.The work is hard work but you have to get out there and engage with
:31:13. > :31:18.the local community, engage with the local business community. Make
:31:18. > :31:24.the S -- SFL clubs the core of football and indeed sport. We need
:31:24. > :31:28.a lot of things to help that along the way such as more of pitches.
:31:28. > :31:33.You begin to see where the Belmont is coming in Scottish football. I
:31:33. > :31:38.would like to compliment Stephen Pressley. Falkirk where credit to
:31:38. > :31:43.the SPL of this here and the average age of the team at their
:31:43. > :31:49.semi-final was 19. That is great testament to the work going on. The
:31:49. > :31:52.SPL clubs are having to work within their means and work creatively
:31:52. > :31:59.with their youth development programmes. We are beginning to see
:31:59. > :32:05.some real positive things happening. Will the SPL as an organisation
:32:05. > :32:08.have to contemplate the possibility of life without Rangers? Trying to
:32:08. > :32:13.look into a crystal ball is difficult. That is not what we
:32:13. > :32:17.should be doing. We apply our rules and live with the consequences of
:32:17. > :32:21.those rules. Financially, the SPL isn't a good place. We have agreed
:32:21. > :32:27.a five-year deal for live broadcast rights which has 24% up on last
:32:27. > :32:31.year. We're looking to draw as much money up -- as we can into a member
:32:31. > :32:37.clubs. We hope we can draw more and more money in at a time when the
:32:37. > :32:42.economy is under pressure. We look to enhance that quality on the
:32:42. > :32:47.pitch and enhance the speeds are going to matches.
:32:47. > :32:53.Are we too dependent on television income? Can that be a get-out
:32:53. > :32:58.clause for not co-operating clubs properly financially? Every club
:32:58. > :33:03.need a budget and has to work that out and work within it. It is easy
:33:03. > :33:07.to put cost on the bottom line and revenue as a thing which is
:33:07. > :33:17.variable. Season-ticket income is vitally important and is the
:33:17. > :33:21.lifeblood of any club. They cannot afford to pay any more for the
:33:21. > :33:27.football and the problem we have at the moment is that television and
:33:27. > :33:32.the dislocation of games upset supporters. We have had four games
:33:32. > :33:35.televised since the start of the season and they have had four
:33:35. > :33:40.different kick-off times. Supporters what consistency in
:33:40. > :33:44.terms of 3pm on Saturday for the football. If it has to be
:33:44. > :33:48.dislocated for football, some certainty is required for when they
:33:48. > :33:51.are played. Television and supporters together working with
:33:51. > :33:55.the clubs should be a combination which gives the club's more income.
:33:55. > :34:01.It is seen as a negative at the moment and we have to turn it into
:34:01. > :34:06.positive, getting consistency for kick-off times might help. Looking
:34:06. > :34:11.at consistency with the broadcasters might help. We want to
:34:11. > :34:16.improve this for all stakeholders in the game. Let's hear from a
:34:16. > :34:22.command up fan. His football value for money? That really depends on
:34:22. > :34:27.who you are watching on any particular day. I think overall,
:34:27. > :34:31.the price to get into any game just now is over and above what people
:34:31. > :34:36.can sustainably afford unless the Dubai season ticket, which will be
:34:36. > :34:42.cheaper in the long term. Anything above �20 is asking too much for
:34:42. > :34:46.your man in the street. We look earlier at that becoming a middle-
:34:46. > :34:50.class game. That really strikes a chord with us now because crowds
:34:50. > :34:55.are going down because they are spending so much money actually
:34:55. > :34:59.going to games. This is hard up -- it is hard to justify that your
:34:59. > :35:04.family that all that money is going to leisure. You're looking to go to
:35:04. > :35:10.other things and saying, it will take me �50 to go to the football
:35:10. > :35:18.with my boy. It is not on. We have just lost our season tickets for
:35:18. > :35:23.next season -- set our season tickets for next season. The
:35:23. > :35:27.average price for attending a match for her average season ticket is
:35:27. > :35:33.�12 a game. The football clubs are trying very hard to get supporters
:35:33. > :35:37.to the game. Attendance within the stadium is vital. Every football
:35:37. > :35:41.club needs the support has to engage it, not just at times of
:35:41. > :35:49.crisis but to help and sustain the clubs. You're doing advertisements
:35:49. > :35:52.and refereeing... The challenge is that football is too expensive. If
:35:52. > :35:59.you buy a season ticket, it will cost you �12 a game as opposed to
:35:59. > :36:01.some of their head line ticket prices. That loyalty is vital in
:36:01. > :36:05.going forward and taking the game forward so we can encourage
:36:05. > :36:11.everyone to be there. It is a far better spectacle for television
:36:11. > :36:16.with a live audience in the stadium. I just wanted to say, I think
:36:16. > :36:22.everything in our game is driven by television money. Not what is best
:36:22. > :36:26.for our game as a whole. I hear Rob Petrie talking about supporters
:36:26. > :36:34.being the life blood of her game. We actually need to listen to our
:36:34. > :36:40.supporters. 85% -- we have been talking about change in the
:36:40. > :36:46.structure but do we listen? have been intent and jumping the
:36:46. > :36:50.gun all night and moving the discussion. Can I say that going
:36:50. > :36:56.forward, what will come at more and more or over the coming years as
:36:56. > :37:00.financial fair play. --, it. Football has a simple business
:37:00. > :37:08.really with money coming in and you spend that money. You have to make
:37:08. > :37:12.sure you do not spend more until you have it. Clubs had been chasing
:37:12. > :37:18.the dream and spending to achieve success. We have to get value for
:37:18. > :37:21.that money. We do have to get value and unfortunately, when you're
:37:22. > :37:28.spending and fans like to see big- name players and like to think
:37:28. > :37:32.their club is ambitious and wants success, to cover the cost of that,
:37:32. > :37:35.they have to charge at ticket price to do that. It is a bit of a
:37:35. > :37:41.vicious circle because unless you do that, you cannot cover your
:37:41. > :37:45.costs and you end up in a difficult position. I think the secret of
:37:45. > :37:48.handing for word is to focus on home-grown talent, built from the
:37:48. > :37:58.academies and actually try to bring fans in to watch that home-grown
:37:58. > :38:04.
:38:04. > :38:08.There are too many bodies. Getting it from three to two would be an
:38:08. > :38:15.improvement. There are historic reasons why the SPL probbing away
:38:15. > :38:18.from the SFL. There is no reason why you can't have a league that
:38:18. > :38:22.covers everybody. Self-interest is a big thing in the SPL. There has
:38:22. > :38:27.to be a compromise in there for what is best for football. No doubt
:38:27. > :38:29.in my mind the league could go to 16 maybe. From the players point of
:38:29. > :38:36.view, it would be better you wouldn't be playing against the
:38:36. > :38:39.same teams all the time. Having been a manager and playing in the
:38:39. > :38:43.First Division with St Johnstone we finished second a couple of times,
:38:43. > :38:48.it's the only league in the world were second counts for nothing.
:38:48. > :38:55.don't think changing leagues or changing cosmetic aspects of it
:38:55. > :38:59.will change football, it's about footballers. Alan, do we get too
:38:59. > :39:04.over excited about the structure of the game, should we just find
:39:04. > :39:10.players? No, I think the fans and the game agree with Steven, nine
:39:10. > :39:15.out of ten fans would rather see a 16 or 18 team league. They want to
:39:15. > :39:19.see more competition. The way to get more competition, fans believe,
:39:19. > :39:23.is by re-distributing the wealth in the game. At the present moment, a
:39:23. > :39:29.third of the total money in the SPL kitty at the end of the season goes
:39:29. > :39:33.to the top two teams. That's about �5 million out of �15 million. We
:39:33. > :39:36.feel that if that money was re- distributed there would be greater
:39:36. > :39:41.competition and it would be more likely that fans would want to
:39:41. > :39:44.watch the games. Are the fans not telling you in big numbers now they
:39:44. > :39:48.want a bigger league? There has to be a balance between what
:39:48. > :39:53.supporters want and what is affordable. By our calculations
:39:53. > :39:57.moving to a 16 team league, which is the most popular number out,
:39:57. > :40:03.there would cost Scottish football �20 million. If that is a price
:40:03. > :40:08.people are willing to pay, fine. How do you calculate that �20
:40:08. > :40:11.million? 30 games rather than 38. In terms of big TV games the
:40:11. > :40:15.product will be less valuable to broadcasters. That is a robust
:40:15. > :40:19.figure. That will mean much poorer quality on the field of play. That
:40:19. > :40:23.in turn will put pressure on attendances. That is very, very
:40:23. > :40:27.difficult place to be in. I think there is a very important role to
:40:27. > :40:31.listen to supporters and hear what they have to say and what they
:40:31. > :40:36.wanted and, at the same time, the people who manage the finances they
:40:36. > :40:40.have to make sure whatever we decide is affordable. Getting that
:40:40. > :40:43.balance right is a key thing. is a cliche about supporters being
:40:43. > :40:48.the most important people in noob football, do we listen to them?
:40:48. > :40:52.don't listen to them. The debate is whether or not we need to focus on
:40:52. > :40:55.bringing them back through the gates or do we just become more and
:40:55. > :41:00.more reliant on TV money? I think the life blood of Scottish football
:41:00. > :41:05.is by getting the supporters back through the gates. You know, I know
:41:05. > :41:10.Neil there talks about �20 million deficit, surely, we have to reverse
:41:11. > :41:14.the cycle, the more people we get through the gate, then the game
:41:14. > :41:17.becomes stronger. We could save money by turning three governing
:41:17. > :41:23.bodies into twofplt we have been talking about that for years. How
:41:23. > :41:28.close are we to a resolution? are making progress. We have a
:41:28. > :41:31.blueprint at the moment that we have been consulting on. We are
:41:31. > :41:36.making progress. There will be more information on that, I'm sure, in
:41:36. > :41:40.the coming weeks. I think, you know, to go back to the point on league
:41:40. > :41:45.reconstruction, I think we get too hung up on numbers. For me, it's
:41:45. > :41:48.not about one number in a top division. If that was the case you
:41:48. > :41:58.would have one standard size across every single country in Europe. We
:41:58. > :42:02.haven't, we have 10s, 12s, 20s and 16s. It's important to have a
:42:02. > :42:06.competitive tier, and strengthening the clubs that can come up so they
:42:06. > :42:10.compete at the highest level. It's the bridge between the League
:42:10. > :42:16.Premier League and the fist division and making sure that can
:42:16. > :42:21.thrive and be successful for the future. Do you have fears what a
:42:21. > :42:25.merger between SPL and SFL would mean? I don't have any fears. We
:42:25. > :42:30.ran a one league organisation for 100 years. In 1998 that the
:42:30. > :42:37.organisations decided to go down a different route. Does it make sense
:42:37. > :42:44.to revert to were they -- to where they were? It will bring sinneringy.
:42:44. > :42:48.If it created play-offs from the top of the Premier League and
:42:48. > :42:53.bottom. It would provide refreshment. There may be marketing
:42:53. > :42:59.opportunities. We run three leg leagues of 10 with play-offs. With
:42:59. > :43:02.two weeks to go we had 22 clubs for something to play for because of
:43:02. > :43:06.their play-off systems. That generates excitement. We know how
:43:06. > :43:11.big and important play-offs are. The thing we are lacking in the
:43:11. > :43:14.lower leagues is income. As I say, we have to go back to what our
:43:14. > :43:22.roots our, community, young Scottish talent and bringing people
:43:22. > :43:27.back to the game with affordable prices in the way we will do with
:43:27. > :43:35.the Scottish Cup. �20 is the standard price for a ticket for the
:43:35. > :43:41.communities League Cup final. �10 for under 16. The semis were �15
:43:41. > :43:46.and �5. Less than a standard SPL game. I think that the play-offs,
:43:46. > :43:51.we have to look at play-offs everywere. Fans want play-offs. We
:43:51. > :43:55.are ignoring that plea as well from fans. They want play-offs. They are
:43:55. > :44:01.exciting. We could get extra income. You could televise them. I don't
:44:01. > :44:05.know, perhaps, do a separate deal, depending on the play-offs and
:44:05. > :44:10.depending on who is in them. We need to listen to the fans. Whether
:44:10. > :44:16.to go to 16 or not, I'm not convinced, were to extend the
:44:16. > :44:20.league we have to listen. Neil was saying, when you were having the
:44:20. > :44:25.review, it took nine months. The status quo was not an option, we
:44:25. > :44:30.were told. Here we still have the status quo. There was this online
:44:30. > :44:33.survey taking -- taken by the SPL. Hundreds of thousands of people
:44:33. > :44:37.going off... I didn't mean meet one person who knew about that survey
:44:37. > :44:42.much I don't believe we are engaging with fans. We have to. I
:44:42. > :44:47.would quite look forward to two organisations, the SFL and any one
:44:47. > :44:50.of these two, that would be fine by me. We have talked about the
:44:50. > :44:54.football structure, finance, youth development and the national team.
:44:54. > :45:01.It's time now to round things up and point the way towards hopefully
:45:01. > :45:06.a more successful Scottish football future. The reason why in Germany
:45:06. > :45:14.it's better, every club, everyone wants to work together. That's what
:45:14. > :45:18.you must d with Glasgow Rangers, we want to do it together. Then you
:45:18. > :45:24.have a big chance to do it. dwell on the negativities. There
:45:24. > :45:29.are postives out there. Put facilities in place. There are good
:45:29. > :45:34.young players. What we are blessed with, we have terrific managers and
:45:34. > :45:37.coaches. If supporters know that we are going to be bringing kids in.
:45:37. > :45:41.We are going to be bringing through Scottish players, this is the only
:45:41. > :45:44.way forward for our country at the present moment, because we can't
:45:44. > :45:49.generate the level of finance that is necessary, I think they would
:45:49. > :45:55.fully understand that. There is a great love of the game in Scotland
:45:55. > :45:59.by everyone. We don't have a da vine right to be at the top table
:45:59. > :46:03.at football. We have to earn it. With the right people progressing
:46:03. > :46:08.the game further than we are, the future is looking better than what
:46:09. > :46:15.it was. Thats with a vote of confidence in the SFA from Neil
:46:15. > :46:19.Lennon. Can we conker our self- interest? It needs that, doesn't
:46:19. > :46:27.it? Can we afford not to, that is the question? The development of
:46:27. > :46:35.young players is, for me, the way ahead for Scottish football. Steven
:46:35. > :46:40.has proved if you work hard, Hibs have produced players, Hearts, Old
:46:40. > :46:44.Firm have produced players. We need to work even harder. That is what I
:46:45. > :46:49.firmly believe. We need to work very hard to start producing young
:46:49. > :46:52.players. Effectively, they are cheaper. As much as we talk about
:46:52. > :46:58.finances at football clubs, you put a young kid through your system. It
:46:58. > :47:02.cost you money to bring him through. He gets into your team. The wages
:47:03. > :47:07.are lower, there is a chance of sell yon value. Every club in
:47:07. > :47:11.Scotland is a selling club. There is a bigger league next door.
:47:11. > :47:16.Concentrate on developing players. Developing players brings fans back.
:47:16. > :47:20.Nothing better than supporters like to see than a young player getting
:47:20. > :47:25.an opportunity, young Scottish player getting an opportunity at
:47:25. > :47:30.their clubs. They love that. It's important what is happening right
:47:30. > :47:34.now. With the new found believe belief in each other. It's very
:47:34. > :47:40.important that we continue to work together and work very hard to
:47:40. > :47:46.produce players. You don't think we will be having this programme in
:47:46. > :47:50.2032 and still posing the same questions? I hope not. Looking back,
:47:50. > :47:54.what was very encouraging about the German system is that all clubs
:47:54. > :47:57.came together for the benefit of the German game and all worked
:47:57. > :48:01.closely together in the same strategy, in terms of developing
:48:01. > :48:07.good young players. They all moved forward together. That is important
:48:07. > :48:12.to our game here. That we all try and help each each other to develop
:48:12. > :48:15.young players. If they can do it in Germany, we can do it here?
:48:15. > :48:20.years ago we looked at different systems abroad. Everybody in the
:48:20. > :48:23.Scottish game said, yes, we will work towards that. We didn't. As I
:48:23. > :48:27.said earlier, I'm greatly encouraged there is this
:48:27. > :48:32.willingness now, from all parties, to work together, club level,
:48:32. > :48:36.international level, to work together and do the right things. I
:48:36. > :48:39.was impressed with the enthusiasm. I believe them this time. I think
:48:39. > :48:45.that we are heading in the right direction. I think that can only
:48:45. > :48:51.make us better. Therefore, we should have a better chance. Can I
:48:51. > :48:58.make another point. I do believe that the clubs have learnt a lesson.
:48:58. > :49:04.You know, a lot of clubs spent a lot of money from the 2000, even
:49:04. > :49:10.before 2000, 96/97, everybody chased the dream. All the clubs in
:49:10. > :49:13.Scotland chased the dream. We had Santa deal were it looked like we
:49:13. > :49:20.would get more money. The clubs have learnt how to control their
:49:20. > :49:25.finances. They are getting better at that. A lot of the debt clubs
:49:25. > :49:29.are carrying is historical. There is a new realisation we need our
:49:29. > :49:33.feet on the ground and work hard with our own players. It's fair to
:49:33. > :49:39.say we could talk all night about the way ahead for Scottish football.