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0:00:12 > 0:00:14- October 2016, Mold Crown Court.
0:00:14 > 0:00:18- Final verdict in the case against - former police superintendent...
0:00:19 > 0:00:21- ..Gordon Anglesea.
0:00:30 > 0:00:34- This is Gordon Anglesea arriving - at Mold Crown Court today.
0:00:35 > 0:00:39- Throughout the case, he has denied - the allegations against him.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41- But today, he learned his fate.
0:00:46 > 0:00:50- Within the last few minutes, at Mold - Crown Court, a jury has ruled...
0:00:51 > 0:00:55- ..that the former superintendent - of North Wales Police...
0:00:55 > 0:00:59- ..is guilty of historical sex crimes - against two teenage boys.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04- Gordon Anglesea, now aged 79, worked - as a superintendent in Wrexham...
0:01:04 > 0:01:07- ..when the sex attacks took place - in the 1980s.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15- I just feel empty.
0:01:16 > 0:01:18- I'm shaking.
0:01:18 > 0:01:24- It's hard to believe that after - all these years, this day has come.
0:01:26 > 0:01:32- Hearing those words, "guilty", - four times...
0:01:34 > 0:01:38- ..was a very strange feeling.
0:01:38 > 0:01:43- I'm still trying to make sense - of the whole thing.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48- Not just today, but everything - that's happened over the years.
0:01:50 > 0:01:56- I haven't had much time to think yet - about what this means.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58- That's how I feel today.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07- For 27 years, David Williams has - been writing about child abuse...
0:02:07 > 0:02:09- ..in children's homes - in North Wales.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14- This is the journalist's story...
0:02:15 > 0:02:19- What is the reason - that it has taken so long...
0:02:19 > 0:02:22- ..for the truth to come out.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25- We didn't really consider it - to be sexual abuse.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28- It was the way things were. - It's how it was.
0:02:28 > 0:02:30- It was rape, yes.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35- It suggested to me that there had - been a culture of child abuse...
0:02:35 > 0:02:38- ..across North Wales - over a long period of time.
0:02:38 > 0:02:42- The abuse wasn't just within the - home. I was taken to various places.
0:02:42 > 0:02:44- How old were you?
0:02:44 > 0:02:46- Twelve, until I left at sixteen.
0:02:47 > 0:02:49- It was systemic abuse.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54- Why weren't people prepared - to listen and believe?
0:02:55 > 0:02:57- It's sickening.
0:02:58 > 0:03:03- It's a damning indictment on society - in the UK, specifically North Wales.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06- Over a dozen people - have committed suicide.
0:03:06 > 0:03:11- We'll never prove it, but I believe - they killed themselves...
0:03:11 > 0:03:16- ..because of what happened to them - in these children's homes.
0:03:32 > 0:03:36- 1989: Journalist David Williams - worked for HTV Wales...
0:03:37 > 0:03:40- ..on the current affairs programme, - Wales This Week.
0:03:42 > 0:03:48- I happened to see an article - in the local paper in Bangor...
0:03:49 > 0:03:52- ..about a woman - called Alison Taylor.
0:03:52 > 0:03:58- She worked in a children's care home - in Bangor.
0:03:58 > 0:04:00- The home was called Ty'r Felin.
0:04:00 > 0:04:04- She saw what went on in that home...
0:04:04 > 0:04:07- ..where children were being abused.
0:04:07 > 0:04:12- She tried to tell her employers...
0:04:12 > 0:04:16- ..Gwynedd County Council.
0:04:16 > 0:04:21- The article reported - that she had been sacked...
0:04:22 > 0:04:24- ..and that - she was fighting the case...
0:04:24 > 0:04:27- ..and was prepared to go - to a tribunal.
0:04:27 > 0:04:32- In 1989, Gwynedd - was forced into a settlement...
0:04:32 > 0:04:34- ..of my unfair dismissal claim...
0:04:34 > 0:04:39- ..because the industrial tribunal - demanded to hear the evidence...
0:04:39 > 0:04:41- ..that Gwynedd had used to sack me.
0:04:41 > 0:04:44- At that point, Gwynedd panicked...
0:04:44 > 0:04:47- ..because they didn't have - any evidence.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50- I was fitted up, to put it bluntly.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54- As a journalist, - I thought there was a conspiracy...
0:04:54 > 0:04:57- ...and that they were - hiding something.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59- They wanted to keep it quiet.
0:05:00 > 0:05:04- I found out where she lived - and knocked on the door.
0:05:05 > 0:05:06- That's where it started.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10- We sat down. - I was there for a long time.
0:05:11 > 0:05:17- She told me the background to the - story and what her concerns were.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20- I thought it was a hell of a story.
0:05:21 > 0:05:27- September 1991: HTV Wales broadcast - Wales This Week - Children in Care.
0:05:36 > 0:05:39- Ty'r Felin on the outskirts - of Bangor in North Wales...
0:05:40 > 0:05:42- ..is one of three community homes...
0:05:42 > 0:05:45- ..looking after children in care - in Gwynedd.
0:05:45 > 0:05:49- Five years ago, the home - was at the centre of allegations...
0:05:49 > 0:05:51- ..of assault on children.
0:05:51 > 0:05:54- I was ten years old. - There was disruptive family life.
0:05:54 > 0:05:58- There were prescription drugs - involved. There was bad parenting.
0:05:59 > 0:06:00- There was alcohol.
0:06:00 > 0:06:03- There was the estate mentality.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05- I was one of many on my estate.
0:06:05 > 0:06:09- I was one of forty from one estate - who were taken into care.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14- My first thoughts - were the smell of disinfectant.
0:06:15 > 0:06:20- The silence, the hollow tiled floor.
0:06:20 > 0:06:24- The officer-in-charge - who greeted me on my arrival...
0:06:24 > 0:06:28- ..was the bastard, Nefyn Dodd.
0:06:29 > 0:06:31- He battered many children.
0:06:31 > 0:06:37- Me specifically - suffocation, - physical assaults, mental torture...
0:06:37 > 0:06:42- ..the constant fear, - the dread of Dodd...
0:06:42 > 0:06:48- ..was not something - I'd wish on anybody I know.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54- Eight weeks I was there.
0:06:54 > 0:06:59- I'd say, every other day - I was belted by Mr Dodd.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02- I witnessed him bashing one boy...
0:07:02 > 0:07:05- ..and said if I saw anything - like that again...
0:07:05 > 0:07:08- ..I'd report it - straight to the police.
0:07:08 > 0:07:11- I don't know why Dodd - was appointed to that post.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14- Ty'r Felin - was the flagship assessment centre.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18- It should've had a fully qualified - social worker in charge.
0:07:18 > 0:07:20- Someone with management experience.
0:07:21 > 0:07:23- But he was appointed. - It was bizarre.
0:07:23 > 0:07:25- Did you try and tell anybody?
0:07:28 > 0:07:29- Only my mother.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34- Nobody else really listened.
0:07:35 > 0:07:36- That was me.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39- Just another kid in the car.
0:07:40 > 0:07:44- There was something wrong - at this home.
0:07:44 > 0:07:49- It wasn't always someone - being beaten and going to hospital.
0:07:50 > 0:07:54- There was something - more subtle going on.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57- If you didn't speak Welsh, - you were punished.
0:07:58 > 0:08:00- Not so much physically punished.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05- You were made to feel inadequate - because you couldn't communicate...
0:08:05 > 0:08:07- ..in the language - that was demanded...
0:08:08 > 0:08:10- ..in that establishment - at that time.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14- I've never fully got over that.
0:08:14 > 0:08:18- I felt it gave them - a sense of power over me.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22- "You will fucking speak Welsh, - you little bastard."
0:08:24 > 0:08:29- In an effort to get some response to - the fresh allegations of assault...
0:08:29 > 0:08:32- ..we approached Mr Nefyn Dodd - who is retired...
0:08:33 > 0:08:35- ..but we were only able - to speak to his wife.
0:08:36 > 0:08:38- Is Mr Dodd in?
0:08:38 > 0:08:41- No, he's not.
0:08:41 > 0:08:45- Mrs June Dodd is now the - officer-in-charge at Ty'r Felin.
0:08:45 > 0:08:48- My husband has a love of children.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51- A lot of children - have great respect for my husband...
0:08:51 > 0:08:54- ..and no way would any child - be hit by my husband.
0:08:55 > 0:08:57- And he would refute - all the allegations...
0:08:58 > 0:08:59- ..that he's assaulted anyone?
0:09:00 > 0:09:02- Of course. - He'd only speak the truth.
0:09:02 > 0:09:05- I've lived with my husband - for over thirty years...
0:09:05 > 0:09:09- ..and he's never ever been cruel - to anyone, man or animal.
0:09:09 > 0:09:10- Thank you.
0:09:12 > 0:09:17- The children are telling you - that nobody would listen.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21- It goes deeper than that.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27- What I came to know later on - about the number of complaints...
0:09:27 > 0:09:32- ..that had been made to Gwynedd - directly, before I said anything...
0:09:32 > 0:09:35- ..makes it clear - that Gwynedd County Council...
0:09:35 > 0:09:37- ..buried allegations of child abuse.
0:09:47 > 0:09:51- After we got all these facts...
0:09:51 > 0:09:55- ..I remember trying to get - an interview with Lucille Hughes...
0:09:55 > 0:10:00- ..who ran social services at - Gwynedd County Council at the time.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03- I had a meeting with her.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07- I remember her looking at me - and saying...
0:10:08 > 0:10:13- .."Mr Williams, you must understand - that Nefyn Dodd...
0:10:14 > 0:10:20- "..would get down on his hands and - knees in the snow to help a child.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22- "Do you understand me?"
0:10:22 > 0:10:27- What I understood was that - they weren't going to believe me.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33- Five years after the police - investigations into allegations...
0:10:33 > 0:10:36- ..of assaults on children - in care in Gwynedd...
0:10:36 > 0:10:40- ..Alison Taylor still persists with - her attempt to bring the matter...
0:10:40 > 0:10:44- ..to the attention of government - ministers and law officers.
0:10:44 > 0:10:48- Looking back, - that programme appears quite tame.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51- But, it created quite a sensation.
0:10:53 > 0:10:58- You have to remember that people - didn't talk about such things then.
0:10:58 > 0:11:02- Why were people - not prepared to listen...
0:11:02 > 0:11:05- ..or believe what was happening?
0:11:05 > 0:11:08- Where was their sense - of responsibility?
0:11:08 > 0:11:12- That's what I was trying to say - in that first programme.
0:11:13 > 0:11:17- We asked Gwynedd Social Services - to respond to our latest findings.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21- The director, Miss Lucille Hughes, - told us that at no time...
0:11:21 > 0:11:25- ..would the County Council subject - itself to "trial by Television".
0:11:25 > 0:11:28- That was when I started down - an incredible path.
0:11:28 > 0:11:32- I never thought I would be here...
0:11:32 > 0:11:37- ..a quarter of a century later - saying what I am saying now.
0:11:48 > 0:11:48- .
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0:12:11 > 0:12:15- The first documentary - on this issue...
0:12:15 > 0:12:19- ..opened the lid on Pandora's box.
0:12:21 > 0:12:26- I got so much reaction and many - people had been shocked by it.
0:12:27 > 0:12:32- Some people refused to believe it, - others criticized us.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36- But other people got in touch with - us and told us we should be aware...
0:12:36 > 0:12:39- ..that this - wasn't just happening in Gwynedd.
0:12:39 > 0:12:44- They wanted us to know that worse - stuff was going on in other homes.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46- All over North Wales.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50- We went out - and discovered it was true.
0:12:51 > 0:12:57- It started with stories - about physically harming children.
0:12:59 > 0:13:05- Then the stories about sexual - child abuse started to emerge.
0:13:06 > 0:13:09- One of the places that was happening - was Bryn Estyn.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14- For 30 years...
0:13:14 > 0:13:20- ..Bryn Estyn was one of Clwyd County - Council's main children's homes.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46- This is Bryn Estyn, - just outside Wrexham.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51- This is seen by some - as the centre of the universe...
0:13:51 > 0:13:53- ..in terms of child abuse - in North Wales.
0:13:54 > 0:14:00- There were some very serious cases - of child abuse here.
0:14:01 > 0:14:06- It has become iconic because - we've seen so many pictures of it...
0:14:07 > 0:14:11- ..on the news and other programmes.
0:14:11 > 0:14:16- In the end, the county council - and police stopped me filming here.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20- It's completely deserted now...
0:14:20 > 0:14:25- ..and many people feel the best - thing would be to demolish it.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42- We called Bryn Estyn - the Colditz of Care.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46- It was run like a prison regime - with prison-style uniforms.
0:14:46 > 0:14:49- Blue jeans - with a striped prison shirt.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53- You had boots and a number.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57- I'll never forget my number. - It followed me through care. 28.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01- The sexual abuse started - at Bersham Hall not Bryn Estyn.
0:15:01 > 0:15:05- I had been abused - prior to going into Bersham Hall...
0:15:05 > 0:15:08- ..by a couple of police officers.
0:15:09 > 0:15:11- Police officers?
0:15:12 > 0:15:18- On the Richter Scale of sexual abuse - was this extremely serious?
0:15:18 > 0:15:19- It was rape, yes.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26- When you went to Bryn Estyn...
0:15:26 > 0:15:30- ..this kind of abuse - continued within that regime.
0:15:31 > 0:15:34- It did but it was worse - because there were more people.
0:15:35 > 0:15:37- I was abused by dozens of people - in Bryn Estyn.
0:15:38 > 0:15:39- Physically and sexually.
0:15:40 > 0:15:43- Also, I was sold.
0:15:43 > 0:15:47- Out of Bryn Estyn, - I was sold to people outside.
0:15:47 > 0:15:51- The abuse wasn't just in the home, - I was taken to various places.
0:15:51 > 0:15:53- How old were you?
0:15:53 > 0:15:55- Twelve, until I left at sixteen.
0:16:07 > 0:16:09- The physical abuse - was obvious to everybody.
0:16:10 > 0:16:13- There were that many staff beating - people up in front of everybody.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15- That was crystal clear.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18- It was also clear - what Peter Howarth was doing.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19- The deputy principal.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21- The deputy principal.- - He was the deputy principal.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24- He got ten years in prison. - He died after serving two.
0:16:24 > 0:16:26- He had a thing called a flat list.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30- The flat list - was a list of boys' names...
0:16:30 > 0:16:33- ..drawn up weekly or daily...
0:16:33 > 0:16:38- ..of those boys chosen to spend - late evenings in Howarth's flat.
0:16:38 > 0:16:40- One of the rules...
0:16:41 > 0:16:44- ..was boys had to be in pyjamas - but not wearing underpants.
0:16:47 > 0:16:51- People fought to be on the list and - were jealous of those on the list.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55- People resented - not being on the flat list.
0:16:58 > 0:17:01- We didn't really consider it - as sexual abuse.
0:17:01 > 0:17:05- It was the way things were. - It's how it was.
0:17:08 > 0:17:12- The public seems to think this - has all come out in recent years.
0:17:13 > 0:17:16- It's not. My first police statement - was in 1972.
0:17:16 > 0:17:22- I made another one in 1977 - and two more in 1979.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25- I made a further one in 1980.
0:17:25 > 0:17:29- I made numerous police statements - and yet no action was taken.
0:17:33 > 0:17:39- The story grew and grew. - We made more and more programmes.
0:17:39 > 0:17:45- It kept on growing as more and more - people kept coming forward...
0:17:45 > 0:17:50- ..with stories - of how they suffered in these homes.
0:17:50 > 0:17:56- It suggested to me that there - had been a culture of child abuse...
0:17:56 > 0:17:59- ..across North Wales - over a long period of time.
0:17:59 > 0:18:04- And that many people had known - but that any complaints...
0:18:05 > 0:18:08- ..made by children had been buried - one way or the other.
0:18:09 > 0:18:13- Children absconding from Bryn Estyn - had been picked up by the police...
0:18:13 > 0:18:17- ..they'd informed the police at the - time that they were being abused...
0:18:17 > 0:18:20- ..but the police - had simply taken them back there.
0:18:21 > 0:18:26- It was systemic abuse by the people - running these institutions.
0:18:26 > 0:18:32- People at county level - did nothing about these concerns...
0:18:33 > 0:18:35- ..even with people telling them.
0:18:35 > 0:18:37- That's how it is.
0:18:38 > 0:18:40- It's sickening.
0:18:41 > 0:18:47- It's a damning indictment on society - in the UK, specifically North Wales.
0:18:53 > 0:18:58- The next development - which changed things completely...
0:18:59 > 0:19:02- ..was that people - started coming forward...
0:19:02 > 0:19:04- ..claiming that the police...
0:19:04 > 0:19:08- ..rather than - looking into these accusations...
0:19:08 > 0:19:14- ..had individuals within it who were - complicit in the abuse of children.
0:19:27 > 0:19:28- September 1992.
0:19:28 > 0:19:33- David Williams is producing a Wales - This Week programme for HTV Wales.
0:19:35 > 0:19:39- On camera, he questions two people - who claimed they were abused...
0:19:39 > 0:19:44- ..at Bryn Estyn by the former police - superintendent, Gordon Anglesea.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54- I first met Gordon Anglesea...
0:19:54 > 0:19:57- ..on a street like this one - in Rhos-on-Sea.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02- In fact, - it's the only time I've met him.
0:20:02 > 0:20:05- I was getting another episode - of Wales This Week ready.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10- I wanted to give him an opportunity - to respond to allegations...
0:20:10 > 0:20:13- ..that he had - sexually abused children.
0:20:14 > 0:20:20- I doorstepped him - but he was very cool and composed...
0:20:20 > 0:20:23- ..just as he always appears.
0:20:24 > 0:20:30- He answered me in the measured - manner of a police superintendent.
0:20:30 > 0:20:34- It was clear - that he knew exactly how to respond.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38- It was a string of 'no comment' - and 'see my solicitor'.
0:20:39 > 0:20:45- In that programme, we gave - our verdict on Gordon Anglesea.
0:20:46 > 0:20:48- However, even now, - despite the fact...
0:20:48 > 0:20:52- ..he's been found guilty of - sexual offences against children...
0:20:52 > 0:20:56- ..we can't show you clips - of that programme for legal reasons.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59- That programme - led to Gordon Anglesea...
0:20:59 > 0:21:03- ..taking Wales This Week - and some others to the High Court.
0:21:07 > 0:21:10- December 1994 - - The High Court, London.
0:21:10 > 0:21:14- A libel case against HTV Wales.
0:21:14 > 0:21:17- It was quite a famous case.
0:21:17 > 0:21:21- In the words of the lawyers - at the time...
0:21:21 > 0:21:25- .."There's no more serious libel - than the one you committed...
0:21:25 > 0:21:28- "..in naming Gordon Anglesea - as a sexual abuser."
0:21:29 > 0:21:32- That was the charge put against us.
0:21:32 > 0:21:38- We had to prove - that what we had said was true.
0:21:39 > 0:21:44- By this point, the Observer, - the Independent and Private Eye...
0:21:44 > 0:21:47- ..had made the same allegations.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51- They were in the dock with us.
0:21:51 > 0:21:56- This is the day Gordon Anglesea - has waited three years for.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59- A television company and - three publications accused him...
0:22:00 > 0:22:04- ..of sexually abusing boys - but he took them on and won.
0:22:04 > 0:22:09- Most of the jury - decided they didn't believe us.
0:22:10 > 0:22:13- Ten of them - believed Gordon Anglesea.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17- We were punished - and it cost millions...
0:22:17 > 0:22:22- ..with the man himself - getting over 300,000...
0:22:23 > 0:22:24- ..in damages.
0:22:25 > 0:22:30- We took a real slap in that case.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34- I have been vindicated, - my reputation is restored.
0:22:34 > 0:22:36- The money is immaterial.
0:22:36 > 0:22:40- I wanted that vindication - and that clearance and I've got it.
0:22:44 > 0:22:46- Mark Humphreys and Steve Messham...
0:22:46 > 0:22:49- ..were defence witnesses - in that case.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51- Both were former residents - at Bryn Estyn.
0:22:52 > 0:22:56- I remember walking out - of the back door with Mark...
0:22:56 > 0:23:01- ..to avoid the cameras - waiting for us at the front door.
0:23:03 > 0:23:08- As you'd expect, Mark and Steven - were very disappointed...
0:23:08 > 0:23:10- ..and had their heads down.
0:23:12 > 0:23:17- Mark turned to me and said, - "At least two of them believed me."
0:23:18 > 0:23:22- We had to look after - both of them that night.
0:23:22 > 0:23:28- We sent Mark home with a nurse - because he was in such a state.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33- A friend and I...
0:23:33 > 0:23:37- ..stayed up all night - outside Steven Messham's room.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42- We feared - he might try to kill himself.
0:23:52 > 0:23:53- We lost.
0:23:53 > 0:23:58- Looking back, - that was a huge moment.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03- It was the first time - I'd started to doubt myself.
0:24:03 > 0:24:09- I thought - I might have got it wrong...
0:24:10 > 0:24:14- ..and that - I'd made a terrible mistake.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18- Professionally, - that was the first time...
0:24:18 > 0:24:23- ..I started doubting my credentials - as a journalist.
0:24:35 > 0:24:35- .
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0:24:54 > 0:24:55- It affects you.
0:24:55 > 0:24:58- As a father myself - - I have three children...
0:24:59 > 0:25:02- ..and at the time, - my daughter was young.
0:25:02 > 0:25:07- As you do as parents, - I remember giving her a bath.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09- It was my turn to do it.
0:25:09 > 0:25:13- I remember, - I don't know how it came over me.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17- I just stopped - touching my own daughter.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21- The reason for that is...
0:25:21 > 0:25:27- ..all the things people had done - to children came into my mind.
0:25:28 > 0:25:31- I just thought, - and I'll say it in English...
0:25:32 > 0:25:34- ..the bastards have got to me.
0:25:35 > 0:25:41- That was something - I thought that really hit me.
0:25:42 > 0:25:46- I couldn't at that moment, touch - my child, because I might do...
0:25:46 > 0:25:50- ..the same thing that I'd been - hearing about time after time.
0:25:50 > 0:25:54- I didn't believe it to begin with, - but by now I'd heard about...
0:25:54 > 0:25:58- ..so many terrible things that - happened, it had affected me.
0:25:58 > 0:26:02- It had entered by some sort - of osmosis and had got a grip of me.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04- It was affecting me and the family.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07- If this is broadcast...
0:26:07 > 0:26:12- ..my daughter - won't know that until now.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20- Should I have made another decision?
0:26:21 > 0:26:22- I don't think so.
0:26:22 > 0:26:27- I have to believe the people who - said what they told me at the time.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31- They said it and I must continue - to believe it...
0:26:31 > 0:26:34- ..because I've been - back to some of these people.
0:26:34 > 0:26:37- I've talked to - Mark Humphreys' wife at the time.
0:26:39 > 0:26:45- When you listen to what she says - about the effect of all this...
0:26:46 > 0:26:50- ..on her husband at the time, - it's extremely sad.
0:26:50 > 0:26:56- She said that he came back from - that trial in London a changed man.
0:26:56 > 0:27:01- He started drinking. - He attacked her.
0:27:01 > 0:27:05- In the end, she had to leave - the house in the early hours...
0:27:05 > 0:27:09- ..taking the children with her - because she feared for her life.
0:27:10 > 0:27:15- She says the reason for this was - that he'd received such a blow...
0:27:15 > 0:27:18- ..in the court in London - that it changed his life.
0:27:22 > 0:27:28- February 1995. - Mark Humphreys' body is discovered.
0:27:28 > 0:27:34- I heard about Mark's death - over the phone.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36- Someone phoned me at home.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39- They said they'd found his body.
0:27:39 > 0:27:42- He'd hanged himself, supposedly...
0:27:42 > 0:27:45- ..in the bedsit in Wrexham - where he lived.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48- He'd moved out of the family home.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55- That was a big blow to me.
0:27:57 > 0:28:03- If you feel that you've been - responsible, to a degree...
0:28:03 > 0:28:08- ..for the death of someone who had - appeared in one of your stories...
0:28:10 > 0:28:13- ..it doesn't - get bigger than that, does it?
0:28:13 > 0:28:18- Someone killed himself - after giving evidence in court.
0:28:18 > 0:28:22- He appeared on camera - like I'm doing now.
0:28:22 > 0:28:27- Then everything got too much for him - and he committed suicide.
0:28:28 > 0:28:33- I'd say that was the lowest point - in my professional life.
0:28:46 > 0:28:50- What I've seen over the last quarter - of a century...
0:28:50 > 0:28:53- ..which I didn't understand - in the beginning...
0:28:53 > 0:28:56- ..is the effect on people - as they get older.
0:28:57 > 0:28:59- I've had a couple of spells - in psych units.
0:29:00 > 0:29:01- Psychiatric units?
0:29:01 > 0:29:03- Psychiatric units?- - Psychiatric units, sorry.
0:29:03 > 0:29:07- In fact it was only a year - last April I came out...
0:29:07 > 0:29:09- ..after being there for six months.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13- So it doesn't go away, - it's still there. It's raw.
0:29:14 > 0:29:17- 1996. - The Jillings Report was completed.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20- An independent report on behalf - of Clwyd County Council...
0:29:20 > 0:29:22- ..into allegations of child abuse.
0:29:24 > 0:29:27- 17 years passed - before it was published in 2013.
0:29:31 > 0:29:32- "The report of an inquiry...
0:29:32 > 0:29:35- .."into one of the biggest child - abuse scandals...
0:29:35 > 0:29:38- .."Britain has ever seen - is being kept secret."
0:29:38 > 0:29:42- "The council which ordered it - feared those who'd been abused...
0:29:42 > 0:29:45- .."would make - massive compensation claims."
0:29:45 > 0:29:48- I had a phone call from somebody - who was worried.
0:29:48 > 0:29:54- I was invited to what used to be - a cupboard.
0:29:54 > 0:30:00- On the table behind the door - was the Jillings Report.
0:30:00 > 0:30:06- The only way this man was willing - to show me what was in the report...
0:30:06 > 0:30:08- ..was for me to be shut inside...
0:30:09 > 0:30:15- ..and left to have as much time as - necessary to read it and make notes.
0:30:15 > 0:30:21- I went through the report - using a dictaphone.
0:30:22 > 0:30:28- It confirmed for me - exactly what I had suspected.
0:30:30 > 0:30:34- There it was, in black and white, - one page after the other.
0:30:36 > 0:30:41- I tried my best to bring - these findings to the surface.
0:30:42 > 0:30:47- People were afraid - because the claims were scary.
0:30:47 > 0:30:51- Even Members of Parliament who - believed action should be taken...
0:30:51 > 0:30:55- ..weren't willing - to raise the subject officially.
0:30:55 > 0:30:59- I had sent the details - in a brown envelope...
0:30:59 > 0:31:05- ..to those I'd hoped would raise - the issue, but it didn't happen.
0:31:06 > 0:31:09- But afterwards, - everything advanced very quickly.
0:31:10 > 0:31:14- The Welsh Secretary of State - at the time, William Hague...
0:31:14 > 0:31:18- ..decided to launch - an official inquiry.
0:31:19 > 0:31:20- January 1997.
0:31:20 > 0:31:24- The Waterhouse Report into child - abuse in North Wales was launched.
0:31:32 > 0:31:35- The Waterhouse Report - was carried out.
0:31:35 > 0:31:39- It went on, and on, and on...
0:31:40 > 0:31:42- ..at a cost of millions of pounds.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47- Hundreds of people were called up.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50- I'm not sure exactly...
0:31:50 > 0:31:54- ..how many words - were in it by the end...
0:31:54 > 0:31:58- ..but it was a very bulky report.
0:31:59 > 0:32:00- Good evening.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04- It's been a long time coming. - For many it's the end of the road.
0:32:04 > 0:32:07- Some didn't finish the journey - and took their own lives.
0:32:08 > 0:32:12- We're talking, of course, about the - long-awaited Waterhouse Report...
0:32:13 > 0:32:15- ..into child abuse in North Wales.
0:32:15 > 0:32:17- Good things came from it.
0:32:17 > 0:32:22- It recommended the appointment of - a Children's Commissioner For Wales.
0:32:22 > 0:32:26- That has now happened and - it was very important that it did.
0:32:27 > 0:32:29- At last, there was - something official...
0:32:30 > 0:32:33- ..you could hold in your hands - which admitted what happened.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37- Something which supported - Alison Taylor's claims.
0:32:37 > 0:32:41- According to Waterhouse, - without Alison Taylor...
0:32:41 > 0:32:44- ..the report would never - have been commissioned.
0:32:44 > 0:32:48- The problem with - the Waterhouse Inquiry...
0:32:49 > 0:32:54- ..was although the tribunal - had a disciplinary remit...
0:32:54 > 0:33:00- ..they could refer individuals - for criminal investigation...
0:33:00 > 0:33:02- ..they didn't do so.
0:33:03 > 0:33:06- They found over and over again, - if you read the report...
0:33:07 > 0:33:09- ..they come to a certain point.
0:33:09 > 0:33:13- At one point they say children - were failed at house level...
0:33:13 > 0:33:17- ..by Gwynedd County Council - - neglected...
0:33:17 > 0:33:20- ..and that the council - buried abuse allegations.
0:33:20 > 0:33:25- Those two factors should have been - referred for criminal investigation.
0:33:26 > 0:33:29- I've wondered since, - and I've said since...
0:33:29 > 0:33:31- ..whether that tribunal report...
0:33:32 > 0:33:36- ..was edited by Government or - Whitehall before it was published.
0:33:49 > 0:33:52- I don't see myself as an outsider.
0:33:52 > 0:33:56- As a child I lived in New Zealand - but I was born in Wales.
0:33:56 > 0:33:59- My father was the head - of a small school in Ganllwyd.
0:34:00 > 0:34:04- Perhaps those years in New Zealand - gave me the ability...
0:34:04 > 0:34:10- ..to look at Wales from the outside.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14- I think that's healthy.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17- It gives you - a different perspective.
0:34:21 > 0:34:25- There's no doubt - people look after themselves first.
0:34:25 > 0:34:30- Factions, if you like - - you see it in the police.
0:34:31 > 0:34:35- You see it in county councils.
0:34:35 > 0:34:41- You see it in - dare I say it? - - freemasonry.
0:34:42 > 0:34:46- Freemasonry is attached to this. - I'm not trying to be conspiratorial.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51- Perhaps an even more burning - subject...
0:34:52 > 0:34:54- ..is that fact that language - comes into it.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58- Some of the people - I've spoken to are Welsh.
0:34:58 > 0:35:03- They're from Wales, - and feel Welsh...
0:35:03 > 0:35:08- ..but aren't quite - in the little club.
0:35:08 > 0:35:13- Perhaps that has been responsible - for what people haven't done.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16- We just don't like to believe...
0:35:16 > 0:35:22- ..that we, as a nation, are guilty - of what we've being speaking about.
0:35:30 > 0:35:31- October 2012.
0:35:31 > 0:35:36- ITV broadcasts a television - programme accusing Jimmy Savile...
0:35:36 > 0:35:41- ..of sexual assaults on young girls, - exactly one year after his death.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46- Jimmy Savile, as we are now - all aware, was a serial abuser.
0:35:47 > 0:35:53- The biggest paedophile - we've ever heard of.
0:35:54 > 0:35:59- But more than the individual and - the serious crimes he committed...
0:35:59 > 0:36:03- ..the fact we know about it, - changed everything.
0:36:03 > 0:36:09- It changed in a way - we would have welcomed...
0:36:09 > 0:36:11- ..a quarter of a century ago.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13- People refused to believe...
0:36:13 > 0:36:16- ..people were capable of such - things in homes.
0:36:17 > 0:36:21- Then they couldn't believe that - famous people could do this...
0:36:21 > 0:36:24- ..or people in authority.
0:36:24 > 0:36:28- Jimmy Savile showed - that people were capable of it...
0:36:28 > 0:36:31- ..and were getting away with it too.
0:36:32 > 0:36:38- Day after day people come forward - from the '50s, '60s, '70s and 80s.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41- Churches and children's - organisations, scouts.
0:36:43 > 0:36:49- Is there anybody out there who - hasn't experienced abuse themselves?
0:36:49 > 0:36:53- It's a fucking damning indictment - on the UK childcare services.
0:36:53 > 0:36:56- It really is mental.
0:36:56 > 0:36:56- .
0:37:07 > 0:37:07- Subtitles
0:37:07 > 0:37:09- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:37:19 > 0:37:20- December 2014.
0:37:20 > 0:37:26- John Allen is sentenced for - serious sexual abuse of children.
0:37:28 > 0:37:33- I don't know how many times - I've driven along the A55.
0:37:33 > 0:37:36- The North Wales coastal road.
0:37:37 > 0:37:40- I'm off to visit someone - or someone has rang.
0:37:41 > 0:37:45- They usually want to talk about - what happened to them in the homes.
0:37:48 > 0:37:53- After that first programme - it became clear...
0:37:53 > 0:37:58- ..that abuse was also happening - in private homes.
0:37:58 > 0:38:02- Those homes were called - the Bryn Alyn Community.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07- They were being run - by a man called John Allen.
0:38:08 > 0:38:12- Today, we're on the road once again - because he's up in court.
0:38:14 > 0:38:16- The case has been going seven weeks.
0:38:17 > 0:38:22- He's accused of 40 offences - against 20 different people.
0:38:23 > 0:38:28- After a week of discussions, - the jury has decided he's guilty.
0:38:29 > 0:38:32- They've found him guilty - on 33 counts...
0:38:32 > 0:38:35- ..with six of those being - very serious charges.
0:38:58 > 0:39:03- "John Allen arrived at court this - morning to face numerous charges...
0:39:03 > 0:39:05- .."of sexually abusing children."
0:39:05 > 0:39:09- "The 73-year-old is the first person - to answer charges brought...
0:39:09 > 0:39:12- .."by Operation Pallial - into historic cases of abuse."
0:39:23 > 0:39:28- Just listening to the words - being used was very serious.
0:39:29 > 0:39:33- Buggery, - indecent assault, oral rape.
0:39:34 > 0:39:37- For me, one of the witnesses...
0:39:38 > 0:39:43- ..alluded to by the judge in his - closing statement said it all.
0:39:46 > 0:39:51- It had taken that witness 40 years - of effort to get to the point...
0:39:51 > 0:39:55- ..where he could reveal - what had happened to him.
0:39:55 > 0:40:00- He was asked if he still - thought about John Allen at all.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04- He replied - 'Every second of my life.'
0:40:04 > 0:40:08- He said there was - no such thing as closure.
0:40:14 > 0:40:18- "There were whoops of joy - this morning in court...
0:40:18 > 0:40:22- .."when John Allen - was sentenced to jail for life."
0:40:23 > 0:40:28- "The 73-year-old will spend - at least eleven years behind bars."
0:40:29 > 0:40:33- "Dafydd Evans, from Mold - Crown Court, bringing us that news."
0:40:34 > 0:40:36- That's the verdict.
0:40:36 > 0:40:42- It's on Radio Cymru - so we know it must be official.
0:40:42 > 0:40:47- It's odd to hear it - after being in court this morning.
0:40:48 > 0:40:51- But that is just - the end of one chapter.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54- It's the beginning of a process.
0:40:54 > 0:41:00- I'm sure that Operation Pallial will - continue to reveal more and more...
0:41:01 > 0:41:06- ..serious offences like the one - heard today at Mold Crown Court.
0:41:12 > 0:41:16- March 2016. - The publication of the Macur Review.
0:41:18 > 0:41:24- There was another review running - alongside Operation Palliol...
0:41:26 > 0:41:29- ..headed up by Lady Justice Macur.
0:41:30 > 0:41:36- This was looking - at the work of Waterhouse.
0:41:38 > 0:41:41- Her report was published - earlier this year.
0:41:42 > 0:41:46- On a first look it appeared as if...
0:41:46 > 0:41:50- ..she'd given Waterhouse - a clean slate.
0:41:50 > 0:41:53- Other people weren't as happy...
0:41:53 > 0:41:57- ..and felt Waterhouse - didn't go far enough.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03- They weren't happy - with Lady Justice Macur either.
0:42:04 > 0:42:08- No justice at all, - certainly no justice for...
0:42:10 > 0:42:14- ..the young lads, or young men - they were, that committed suicide.
0:42:14 > 0:42:18- Certainly no justice for me - and no justice for dozens more.
0:42:18 > 0:42:21- Are you saying that some of the - people who abused you...
0:42:22 > 0:42:26- ..in the way that you've described - are still walking the streets today?
0:42:26 > 0:42:27- Yes, many, many of them.
0:42:28 > 0:42:32- There's never been no resolution, - you see, has there? For anyone.
0:42:32 > 0:42:37- People are being been prosecuted, - people are going to jail today.
0:42:37 > 0:42:39- Yes, maybe so, - but how long has it taken?
0:42:42 > 0:42:44- It has to have a point.
0:42:44 > 0:42:48- There has to be a recognition - that these inquiries...
0:42:49 > 0:42:55- ..the money that's being spent, - the time that's been invested...
0:42:55 > 0:42:58- ..there has to be an outcome, - an end result.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03- If not, what is the point? - What's the point of any of it?
0:43:04 > 0:43:06- Will things change for people?
0:43:06 > 0:43:09- No, I think it's going to get worse - before they get better.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12- Yes, there's no question about it.
0:43:12 > 0:43:15- And how will that affect you, - Steven?
0:43:15 > 0:43:19- I take each day as it comes. - And I'm happy to do it that way.
0:43:20 > 0:43:24- And how would you sum up - where you are in life at the moment?
0:43:25 > 0:43:27- I'm nowhere in life.
0:43:27 > 0:43:29- One day I'll get somewhere.
0:43:50 > 0:43:54- I think it was worth - trying to tell the truth.
0:43:54 > 0:44:00- Was it worth paying the price - of seeing someone commit suicide?
0:44:00 > 0:44:02- No. No.
0:44:02 > 0:44:05- But when his wife tells me now...
0:44:05 > 0:44:08- ..that someone had to stand up - and say this...
0:44:09 > 0:44:12- ..I feel a bit more at ease but - it would be very difficult now...
0:44:13 > 0:44:18- ..knowing what I know, to ask them - to stand in front of the camera...
0:44:18 > 0:44:20- ..and say what they'd told me.
0:44:20 > 0:44:22- I feel that would be one step - too far.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25- I'd do everything else the same.
0:44:26 > 0:44:29- I'm not trying to be immodest - but why not?
0:44:29 > 0:44:32- It's been important in my life...
0:44:32 > 0:44:36- ..in my professional life - in North Wales...
0:44:36 > 0:44:38- ..to say what we've said.
0:44:38 > 0:44:40- Because it's been true.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45- November 2016, Mold Crown Court.
0:44:45 > 0:44:52- Gordon Anglesea is sentenced for - sexually assaulting two boys.
0:45:03 > 0:45:06- "A former Superintendent - in the Wrexham area...
0:45:06 > 0:45:10- .."Gordon Anglesea - was a respectable, powerful...
0:45:10 > 0:45:11- .."and influential man."
0:45:12 > 0:45:15- "But during those years - in the early 1980s...
0:45:15 > 0:45:20- .."the jury concluded that he had - sexually assaulted two boys."
0:45:20 > 0:45:25- "A fortnight later, Gordon Anglesea - was back in court for sentencing."
0:45:26 > 0:45:29- I can tell you, - and I can say it here now...
0:45:29 > 0:45:33- ..I'm not going to the court to say, - 'This is my day'.
0:45:33 > 0:45:36- I'd be very foolish to do that.
0:45:48 > 0:45:50- Some people will watch this - and think...
0:45:51 > 0:45:53- ..'Right, this is our time'.
0:45:53 > 0:45:57- 'Are they going to listen now, - after everything that's happened?'
0:46:19 > 0:46:21- What a lovely day!
0:46:24 > 0:46:26- What a lovely day.
0:46:26 > 0:46:28- The perfect sentence.
0:46:29 > 0:46:33- "A former policeman has been given - a twelve year prison sentence"...
0:46:34 > 0:46:36- .."for sexually abusing boys - in the 1980s."
0:46:37 > 0:46:40- "Gordon Anglesea, aged 79, - was an inspector in Wrexham...
0:46:40 > 0:46:43- .."when he assaulted - two teenage boys."
0:46:43 > 0:46:46- "The judge said he had changed their - lives forever."
0:46:47 > 0:46:50- But what is the truth? - That is the big question.
0:46:50 > 0:46:56- That's the question I've been asking - young people over the years.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00- I've been asking myself - the same question.
0:47:00 > 0:47:02- And the answer?
0:47:02 > 0:47:05- Well, sometimes it's hard to tell.
0:47:05 > 0:47:08- Sometimes people lie.
0:47:08 > 0:47:13- But ultimately, I'm certain - in my mind that young people...
0:47:13 > 0:47:18- ..hundreds of them, have been - telling the truth over the years...
0:47:19 > 0:47:22- ..when they've been saying that they - were abused as children...
0:47:23 > 0:47:24- ..in North Wales.
0:47:24 > 0:47:30- I think that's sad and - a matter of great shame to us all.
0:48:14 > 0:48:16- S4C Subtitles by Testun Cyf.
0:48:16 > 0:48:17- .