:00:00. > :00:00.to the BBC theatre were Angelina Jolie pate is making a keynote
:00:00. > :00:11.speech on migration. Welcome to this special broadcast on
:00:12. > :00:20.Radio 4 and the BBC News Channel in the UK. And welcome also to viewers
:00:21. > :00:24.and listeners elsewhere. We are also being streamed live on the BBC News
:00:25. > :00:28.website. It is an appropriately global audience to discuss a global
:00:29. > :00:34.issue. The mass movement of people that has affected so many countries
:00:35. > :00:38.over the last year. Some seeing an exodus, others and often unwelcoming
:00:39. > :00:44.plugs. It is something that our speaker has seen first-hand for the
:00:45. > :00:46.last 15 years. She is today the Special Envoy for the UN High
:00:47. > :00:49.Commissioner for Refugees and she has travelled the world to meet
:00:50. > :00:54.those who have fled their country is because of war and persecution.
:00:55. > :00:58.Those whose independent journeys are part of the global migration
:00:59. > :01:01.picture. She has also used her profile to campaign against sexual
:01:02. > :01:05.violence in conflict. She will be speaking and then taking questions
:01:06. > :01:08.from the audience here in the radio Theatre.
:01:09. > :01:19.Please welcome Angelina Jolie. APPLAUSE.
:01:20. > :01:27.Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I am very, very honoured
:01:28. > :01:35.to be here. Over 60 million people are displaced today. More than any
:01:36. > :01:41.time in the last 70 years. That is one in every 122 people. This tells
:01:42. > :01:46.us something deeply worrying about the peace and security of our world.
:01:47. > :01:49.It says that for all other advances this type of human insecurity is
:01:50. > :01:55.growing faster than our ability to prevent or reverse it. The
:01:56. > :01:59.international humanitarian system is supposed to work on the basis that
:02:00. > :02:06.refugees will be protected. Largely in camps where they can be given
:02:07. > :02:08.basic food, shelter and accommodation, as a temporary
:02:09. > :02:14.measure until they can return to their homes. During this time, the
:02:15. > :02:17.exceptional cases of the most vulnerable people can be identified
:02:18. > :02:24.for asylum in a third country and then moved. That is how the system
:02:25. > :02:30.has worked and how it should work. Today we are seeing it breakdown.
:02:31. > :02:35.Not because the model is flawed or because refugees are behaving
:02:36. > :02:41.differently. Because the number of conflicts and scale of displacement
:02:42. > :02:48.have grown so large. In the past six years, 15 conflicts have erupted or
:02:49. > :02:57.reignited. The average time a person will spend displaced is now 20
:02:58. > :03:00.years. 20 years in exile. The number of refugees returning to their homes
:03:01. > :03:07.is the lowest it has been in three decades. Africa has more people
:03:08. > :03:10.displaced than ever before. And millions of refugees live without
:03:11. > :03:16.sufficient food or proper shelter, let alone education, because UN
:03:17. > :03:20.appeals are drastically underfunded. The UNHCR appeal for the Central
:03:21. > :03:29.African Republic, for example, is less than 3% funded. With this the
:03:30. > :03:33.state of today's world, is it any surprise that some of these
:03:34. > :03:35.desperate people running out of all options, who see no hope of
:03:36. > :03:44.returning home, would make a push for Europe as a last resort, even at
:03:45. > :03:51.risk of death? The question is how we will respond as democracies and
:03:52. > :03:57.an international community, to this major test of our values and our
:03:58. > :04:02.resolve? The spotlight has been firmly on Europe. But the crisis in
:04:03. > :04:07.Europe is only a fraction of the global refugee problem. And
:04:08. > :04:12.therefore the solution is being discussed for Europe, our only a
:04:13. > :04:19.fraction of the overall answer. We in the West are neither at the
:04:20. > :04:24.centre of the refugee crisis, nor for the most part the ones making
:04:25. > :04:31.the greatest sacrifice. The majority of the world's refugees live in
:04:32. > :04:36.Turkey, Pakistan, Lebanon, Iran, Ethiopia and Jordan. My argument is
:04:37. > :04:42.that unless we address the root causes of the crisis, we will not
:04:43. > :04:47.see a slowing of the number of refugees crossing borders. And in
:04:48. > :04:54.fact, quite the opposite. Countries around the world will be asked to do
:04:55. > :04:57.more and more. European nations are currently negotiating to resettle
:04:58. > :05:02.10% of refugees from just one conflict, Syria, while other
:05:03. > :05:10.countries are bursting at the seams with millions of refugees from
:05:11. > :05:16.multiple conflicts. So what we must do first and foremost, as citizens,
:05:17. > :05:20.is to demand our governments show the leadership necessary to address
:05:21. > :05:25.the fundamental causes of the refugee crisis at a global level.
:05:26. > :05:31.This is the wider picture that I would like to address today. I know
:05:32. > :05:37.that no one can speak for 60 million displaced people. And I know that it
:05:38. > :05:40.is the democratic right of the citizens of each country to reach
:05:41. > :05:45.their own conclusions about the right way forward. I therefore put
:05:46. > :05:53.my thoughts before you with humility and respect, seeking to understand
:05:54. > :05:58.all points of view. On one hand the refugee crisis has produced great
:05:59. > :06:04.acts of generosity and solidarity with refugees, here in Europe and in
:06:05. > :06:09.other parts of the world. And on the other hand, fear of uncontrolled
:06:10. > :06:14.migration has eroded public confidence and the ability of
:06:15. > :06:18.governments and international institutions to control the
:06:19. > :06:22.situation. It has given space to a false air of legitimacy to those who
:06:23. > :06:27.promote politics of fear and separation. It has created the risk
:06:28. > :06:33.of a race to the bottom, with countries competing to be the
:06:34. > :06:37.toughest. In the hope of protecting themselves, whatever the cost or a
:06:38. > :06:42.challenge to their neighbours, and despite their international
:06:43. > :06:46.responsibilities. But since no country can seal itself off from the
:06:47. > :06:50.impact of the refugee crisis, such a free for all would lead to an even
:06:51. > :06:58.greater set of problems. It would amount to the worst of both worlds,
:06:59. > :07:03.failing to tackle the issue and undermining international law and
:07:04. > :07:10.our values in the process. And there is another factor. At the moment,
:07:11. > :07:13.when we need strong, collective action, we are questioning our
:07:14. > :07:19.ability to cope with international crises. I'm sure that many people
:07:20. > :07:25.listening feel this. We have watched the events of the last few decades
:07:26. > :07:30.wanting to see progress, probably feeling we are doing our part to
:07:31. > :07:33.make that happen. But after so many years of failed attempts by
:07:34. > :07:41.governments and leaders to do the right thing, we feel angry, we feel
:07:42. > :07:45.cheated, we feel confused. We are starting to think that maybe it is
:07:46. > :07:52.simply not possible to make a lasting difference. But the worst
:07:53. > :07:59.possible choice we could make is to decide to step back from the world.
:08:00. > :08:05.The last time there was this number of refugees was after World War II,
:08:06. > :08:09.when nations came together to forge the United nations, the UN Charter
:08:10. > :08:15.and the universal declaration of human rights. I believe this is
:08:16. > :08:22.again that once in a generation moment. Nations have to pull
:08:23. > :08:27.together. How we respond will determine whether we create a more
:08:28. > :08:35.stable world face decades of greater instability. Add its extremes, the
:08:36. > :08:40.debate about refugees in Western nations has been polarised. With
:08:41. > :08:43.only 100 some people calling for open borders, on the other hand, for
:08:44. > :08:53.the complete exclusion of all refugees, or worse, certain groups
:08:54. > :08:59.of refugees. But policies should not be driven by emotion, by what might
:09:00. > :09:01.be termed as naive humanitarianism. Placing the perceived needs of
:09:02. > :09:10.refugees above all other considerations. Or by irrational
:09:11. > :09:17.fear and unacceptable prejudice. Instead, we need to find a rational
:09:18. > :09:20.centre. Rebuilding public confidence and ensuring democratic consent for
:09:21. > :09:28.the long-term approach that will be needed. I believe each government
:09:29. > :09:33.should make a new compact with its people. Setting out what their
:09:34. > :09:39.country can contribute. Based on an objective assessment of the needs,
:09:40. > :09:43.of the available resources and the capacity of local communities, to
:09:44. > :09:49.absorb certain numbers of refugees where that is appropriate. It calls
:09:50. > :09:55.for policies which balance the needs of local communities, with the needs
:09:56. > :10:00.of refugees, which are properly funded, communicated and implemented
:10:01. > :10:04.consistently over time. The point is every country must do its fair share
:10:05. > :10:13.and no country can abdicate its responsibility. I suggest this
:10:14. > :10:18.should be based on four principles. First, it is not wrong for citizens
:10:19. > :10:22.in any country, faced with a sudden surge of people seeking refuge
:10:23. > :10:28.within their borders, to want to know there are strong processes in
:10:29. > :10:36.place to prevent law and order, to preserve and protect their security.
:10:37. > :10:41.No one should be crossing a border and not registering and going
:10:42. > :10:45.through an asylum process. Second, it is important to maintain the
:10:46. > :10:51.distinction between refugees and economic migrants. And economic
:10:52. > :10:58.migrant chooses to move to improve their lives and livelihoods.
:10:59. > :11:04.Refugees have to move if they are to save their lives and preserve their
:11:05. > :11:10.freedoms. However difficult the situation economics migrants are
:11:11. > :11:14.seeking to escape, however understandable their motivation,
:11:15. > :11:19.there is no blanket human rights to resettle in another country. And
:11:20. > :11:23.there is no answer to global poverty and insecurity that involves the
:11:24. > :11:30.mass transfer of people. To put it another way, all human beings
:11:31. > :11:34.deserve equal human rights. But all people seeking asylum do not have
:11:35. > :11:43.equal grounds for asylum. Everyone must respect the laws and asylum
:11:44. > :11:48.procedures. That said, we must bear in mind that the distinction is
:11:49. > :11:55.complex. And must never be used as a way of dismissing migrants who have
:11:56. > :11:59.valid claims for asylum. I would add that we would fail the basic test of
:12:00. > :12:06.humanity if we discriminate between refugees on the basis of religion,
:12:07. > :12:11.race or ethnicity. When I made a refugee I do not see a Muslim
:12:12. > :12:17.refugee or a Christian refugee or a Yazidi. I see a mother or a father,
:12:18. > :12:24.a son or a daughter, a people with an equal right to stand in dignity
:12:25. > :12:30.on this planet. Populations uprooted in the future of their countries.
:12:31. > :12:34.These are decent families, registering and waiting peacefully
:12:35. > :12:39.for a chance to return home. And the majority of them are women and
:12:40. > :12:45.children. We should never make them feel like beggars. Or worse, like a
:12:46. > :12:52.commodity to be traded between countries, a burden, or even a
:12:53. > :12:59.threat, or that their children are not considered people to others.
:13:00. > :13:05.Nobody wants to be a refugee. Nobody deserves to be a refugee. And for as
:13:06. > :13:13.long as war is part of the human condition, none of us are immune to
:13:14. > :13:21.becoming refugees. So all refugees merit equal respect and compassion.
:13:22. > :13:26.And third, it would be naive to think that we can protect ourselves,
:13:27. > :13:30.selectively, alone from the challenges of a globalised world by
:13:31. > :13:37.pulling away from other countries or peoples. As with any global problem
:13:38. > :13:42.in the 21st century, on co-ordinated national responses are not the
:13:43. > :13:50.answer. An unstable world is a non-safe world. For everybody. And
:13:51. > :13:51.there is no barrier high enough to protect from such disorder and
:13:52. > :14:07.desperation. And not favour if you lock your
:14:08. > :14:13.doors. Isolation is not strength. Fragmentation is not the answer.
:14:14. > :14:19.Strength lies in being unafraid and working with others and living up to
:14:20. > :14:27.our highest ideals. We must not change who we are because we face a
:14:28. > :14:35.crisis. And finally, none of this would be enough unless we address
:14:36. > :14:40.the underlying causes of the refugee crisis. Shouldn't we be asking how
:14:41. > :14:49.to make the world more stable, rather than asking how to stabilise
:14:50. > :14:52.a mass of displaced people? What are the failures and flaws of our
:14:53. > :14:56.international system that are causing the number of refugees to
:14:57. > :15:04.grow larger every day? We need to recognise that decades of broken
:15:05. > :15:09.promises, double standards, impartial justice are fundamental
:15:10. > :15:14.part of how we got into today's situation. If we look back and see
:15:15. > :15:19.this many people displaced, and this much conflict, and so little
:15:20. > :15:27.accountability, then we have two question the source of the problem.
:15:28. > :15:33.When a security council member uses its speed to win killing civilians,
:15:34. > :15:40.when civilians are being killed by their own Government, all we turn
:15:41. > :15:43.away from a conflict to soon, all the cases referred to the
:15:44. > :15:50.international criminal court and we don't give it sufficient support,
:15:51. > :15:55.when we don't help nations trade fairly in the world so they can
:15:56. > :16:04.stand on their own, or partially meet UN aid appeal and think we have
:16:05. > :16:07.one, in all these cases, the consequences are deeper conflict and
:16:08. > :16:11.wider instability which leads to the type of mass displacement we are
:16:12. > :16:16.dealing with today. If these things continue to happen, there will be
:16:17. > :16:23.further displacement, and more people on the borders of Europe, and
:16:24. > :16:29.elsewhere. The long-term answer involves bounding our world on laws
:16:30. > :16:36.and accountability, held at the distant that idea, and genuinely
:16:37. > :16:41.working towards the common interests, achieving this will be
:16:42. > :16:45.the work of generations, but it underscores why we cannot step back
:16:46. > :16:52.from the effort to build a more stable world beyond our borders, and
:16:53. > :16:58.a better future for our children. Yes, it is a difficult time in
:16:59. > :17:05.history, where there are people bent on pilots, with no thought for the
:17:06. > :17:08.lives they will ruin by their actions, but we have been through
:17:09. > :17:14.tough times and we have faced the worst of humanity on a global scale
:17:15. > :17:20.with people intent on destroying our democracies, and we have fought back
:17:21. > :17:27.from that. We have more awareness and we have matched big enemies, and
:17:28. > :17:31.if we learn anything from the past, this is what should rally us
:17:32. > :17:38.together, not withdrawing, but decided to come together and show
:17:39. > :17:47.leadership. This is a duty that falls on all of us, to the next UN
:17:48. > :17:53.Secretary General, to civil society, to governments, to everyone of us.
:17:54. > :18:02.And whether we succeed will help this -- to find this century. You'll
:18:03. > :18:10.turn to is chaos and further displacement. -- the alternative.
:18:11. > :18:15.Institutions buckling under the strain of human catastrophe that we
:18:16. > :18:16.could have prevented. Thank you very much.
:18:17. > :18:50.APPLAUSE Angelina Jolie, you are listening to
:18:51. > :18:54.a special broadcast on BBC Four, BBC world News, part of the day of
:18:55. > :18:59.programming that we are calling World On The Move, looking at global
:19:00. > :19:05.migration from many different angles. Angelina Jolie will be thou
:19:06. > :19:12.taking questions, including from our audience. I'd like to ask you, how
:19:13. > :19:18.different it is today, our perception of migration and refugee
:19:19. > :19:23.issues. Probably many people think of it as a moment of crisis,
:19:24. > :19:32.compared to what it was like when you started working 15 years ago?
:19:33. > :19:37.There have always been many millions of people displaced since the dawn
:19:38. > :19:42.of time. When I started, there were millions then, but it was very
:19:43. > :19:48.different. There were many returns, and I was fortunate to be a part of
:19:49. > :19:56.those returns. And when I would visit a refugee camp, the focus
:19:57. > :20:03.wasn't on the country asylum, it was on how to balance the camp, get a
:20:04. > :20:11.secondary school in the camp, appeal for food, funding needing topped up.
:20:12. > :20:15.You are able to work with the displaced people in a way that there
:20:16. > :20:23.was more order. There was more funding. There were less numbers,
:20:24. > :20:28.and now, it's very distressing when I go to the situations in these
:20:29. > :20:36.camps, where it doesn't feel in any way like it used to, and it feels...
:20:37. > :20:41.I know that we want to say that we are -- we are doing at that, we have
:20:42. > :20:48.enough, but we are underfunded for far too long, and the crisis around
:20:49. > :20:52.the world, we are really trying to make up for lack of appeal is being
:20:53. > :20:58.met, and we aren't able to give people what they need. You've talked
:20:59. > :21:04.about a risk of a race to the bottom of the countries to be really tough.
:21:05. > :21:10.Can you understand those countries all around the world, because they
:21:11. > :21:17.taken in refugees, or they taken in many numbers, might not feel welcome
:21:18. > :21:23.in? Of course I do. When it is not explained to you. When we have media
:21:24. > :21:30.and politicians preying on our fears, saying that everything wrong
:21:31. > :21:35.would be this person's fault. Migration is the root of all that's
:21:36. > :21:40.going wrong, when they don't to explain who these people are, or the
:21:41. > :21:46.vetting process, they don't help you to understand what people go through
:21:47. > :21:52.in order to get here. I stepped people through the process. I've
:21:53. > :21:56.watched as they wait month by month to get the right paperwork to do it
:21:57. > :22:02.the right way, and get on the right lists. And when we go through that
:22:03. > :22:07.process, there is a process to see this person is -- has grounds for
:22:08. > :22:14.asylum and should be listened to. A lot of people don't feel that they
:22:15. > :22:21.is not that order in place. People aren't met borders with the right
:22:22. > :22:25.amount of manpower, they aren't understanding the process, and some
:22:26. > :22:30.people are pushing to pass by that process and not get registered, and
:22:31. > :22:38.it is bad for everybody. That's about the responsibility direct
:22:39. > :22:45.Yuji, migrants, and the Government. They need to understand how to
:22:46. > :22:49.manage it, communicate better, because there are many ways in
:22:50. > :22:58.which... We all know that migration can benefit a community. Let's turn
:22:59. > :23:07.to our first collection from an Afghan born refugee who is now
:23:08. > :23:14.broadcaster. I want to know about your distinction between migrant and
:23:15. > :23:19.refugee. I fled the Taliban, but there were lots of reasons why we
:23:20. > :23:25.fled to Britain. I don't know how helpful it might be to create these
:23:26. > :23:29.silos in which we put people, whether it's economic migrants,
:23:30. > :23:33.asylum seekers, refugees. I'm wondering whether you think these
:23:34. > :23:39.terms are helpful? I do think it's important because first of all there
:23:40. > :23:46.is a difference, which is that an economic migrant, we spoke about,
:23:47. > :23:51.absolutely admirable in their need for a better life, the desire for a
:23:52. > :23:58.better life, and if it was me I would do the same for my family in
:23:59. > :24:02.that situation. A refugee, and certain migrants, are coming because
:24:03. > :24:07.of persecution and various other reasons, though I think... Well they
:24:08. > :24:13.are running for their lives and its immediate, an emergency. When
:24:14. > :24:16.there's a massive 6 million people, when I'm in a country with this 4
:24:17. > :24:28.million people and that there's a certain of people that should be put
:24:29. > :24:32.forward first because they need space. So, Afghanistan is a country
:24:33. > :24:39.I love, I have so much respect for Afghan people. I've never been asked
:24:40. > :24:48.for help by an Afghan. Which is extraordinary. Most of them have
:24:49. > :24:53.said they wanted do help themselves. So, it's important, your point, when
:24:54. > :25:00.you are saying, if I'm coming from a country of war, am I a refugee? I've
:25:01. > :25:12.been in a camp on the Macedonian border. A lot of people there, you
:25:13. > :25:20.can't tell the difference. They can suffering and -- they are suffering.
:25:21. > :25:25.How can you tell? If the country is not technically at war in this way
:25:26. > :25:28.like Syria, people in that particular situation would say,
:25:29. > :25:37.we're not excepting Afghans. Which is a horrible thing. Because I met a
:25:38. > :25:42.beautiful family there who absolutely had grounds for asylum
:25:43. > :25:48.and had been following the process by the law. They went to live in
:25:49. > :25:55.Syria as refugees, and now they are saying, we don't care where we go,
:25:56. > :25:59.we just want somewhere safe for a temporary period of time. That's
:26:00. > :26:04.wiping registration is important. We need to understand and have the
:26:05. > :26:08.manpower to listen to each case. There are people who absolutely have
:26:09. > :26:14.grounds for asylum, and it is unclear. It may not be war, maybe
:26:15. > :26:20.it's persecution because of your ethnicity. Girls are being attacked
:26:21. > :26:31.in the area -- various countries because of FGM. It's very, very
:26:32. > :26:37.important that we don't make blanket distinctions. What I'm talking about
:26:38. > :26:48.is that there is a very particular economic migrant, but I wouldn't
:26:49. > :26:58.consider Afghanistan to be that. As an advocate, has the journey of a
:26:59. > :27:05.pure economic migrant become more difficult? I met recently, when I
:27:06. > :27:09.was meeting people in a camp in Lebanon, actually, it wasn't a camp,
:27:10. > :27:16.an abandoned warehouse where they were illegally working because they
:27:17. > :27:21.couldn't legally work and have their papers, which is being worked on.
:27:22. > :27:27.They were living in a place where there was so much asbestos, that one
:27:28. > :27:38.child had already died. Others were developing asthma. These people have
:27:39. > :27:42.been waiting patiently, registering patiently. They've got grounds for
:27:43. > :27:47.asylum and they are not pushing forward, but they are from an area
:27:48. > :27:51.of Syria that is absolutely destroyed, and they are single women
:27:52. > :27:57.and children, on their own and in need. Now, I would like those people
:27:58. > :28:00.to be considered. Among them are sick and elderly. I'd like them to
:28:01. > :28:06.be considered a priority and make sure that someone from maybe another
:28:07. > :28:11.country that is seen this moment is an opportunity to push forward and
:28:12. > :28:17.have a better life for themselves but is not in such dire straits, in
:28:18. > :28:24.such an emergency, I would like them not to step in front of the person
:28:25. > :28:33.who is most vulnerable. David Davidson, a Conservative MP, has a
:28:34. > :28:37.question. He's just come back from a camp in Syria. Recognising your
:28:38. > :28:42.compelling speech the need to go to the source of the problem, wearing
:28:43. > :28:47.down countries with the ongoing problem. After the Second World War,
:28:48. > :28:53.America, by its leadership and resource on to the source of the
:28:54. > :28:59.problem and solved it. Will they go to the source of the problem now?
:29:00. > :29:03.With money, not bombs, but with economic resources? Particularly
:29:04. > :29:13.after the coming presidential election? Well, all I can say is
:29:14. > :29:21.that they absolutely should, and they had better. Not alone. They
:29:22. > :29:28.need to work with countries round the world as before, but that is
:29:29. > :29:34.what they must do, and it's something that we, as an American, I
:29:35. > :29:39.will be pressing my own Government, speaking loudly about it. But I have
:29:40. > :29:44.been very disheartened by my own country's response of this
:29:45. > :29:48.situation. People like Donald Trump? Who's talked about building a fence
:29:49. > :29:54.on the border with Mexico but banning Muslims from the United
:29:55. > :30:07.States? It's hard to respond to that, you know. To me, America is
:30:08. > :30:16.built on people from around the world coming together the freedoms,
:30:17. > :30:23.especially freedom of religion, and so, it's hard to hear that this is
:30:24. > :30:29.coming from somebody who is pressing to be an American president. We turn
:30:30. > :30:40.to Yvette Cooper, Labour MP and chair of the Labour Party refugee
:30:41. > :30:44.task force. Thank you for a powerful speech. Can I ask you particularly
:30:45. > :30:51.about children in child protection, because you rightly told about the
:30:52. > :30:53.importance of registration. And accompany children aren't being
:30:54. > :30:58.registered, they are slipping through the net completely, often
:30:59. > :31:02.falling into the arms of trafficking gangs and are at huge risk of abuse.
:31:03. > :31:07.We know that in some areas on a part of the reason they are being
:31:08. > :31:14.registered is that the agencies might be detention, or stop them
:31:15. > :31:17.because there's no proper provision, so, as a result, there is a
:31:18. > :31:20.stand-off between agencies and the authorities and the children just
:31:21. > :31:27.disappear. Could you say anything more, given the work you've done
:31:28. > :31:32.around sexual violence, about what could be done more for child
:31:33. > :31:40.refugees? I'm very glad you mentioned that. As we've said, more
:31:41. > :31:46.than half of the refugees are women and children. Half of these children
:31:47. > :31:50.are out of school. The amount of unaccompanied children is very, very
:31:51. > :31:58.high. I work with a group, speaking of migration, I worked years ago
:31:59. > :32:04.with a group called Kids In Need Of Defence, I went to the Bore da and
:32:05. > :32:07.found that there were far too many unaccompanied children who didn't
:32:08. > :32:11.have any legal representation. There was nothing there for them. They
:32:12. > :32:16.were recommended -- representing themselves, including a
:32:17. > :32:20.four-year-old. In order to see your claim, you had to talk about certain
:32:21. > :32:26.kinds of things that are difficult to -- for anyone to speak of, never
:32:27. > :32:31.mind a child who has experienced sexual abuse. So, we started a
:32:32. > :32:41.programme where there was a matching pro bono legal firm to try and raise
:32:42. > :32:47.a number of lawyers to get cases moving. I believe this group is
:32:48. > :32:54.going to start a UK chapter as well. I think that's what we have to do.
:32:55. > :32:59.We can speak about it and how unjust it is and you can't help getting
:33:00. > :33:04.angry, but I think we had to find a way to make sure that there is
:33:05. > :33:07.enough manpower to reach these children, and we have to look at the
:33:08. > :33:12.ways that they are being held in these detention centres. We need to
:33:13. > :33:18.understand how inhumane they are. Also, I think we have to look to...
:33:19. > :33:22.I understand the desperate situation that people are in when they feel
:33:23. > :33:27.like they have nothing and their world is falling apart and they are
:33:28. > :33:34.living in a war zone, and the only chance they feel is that they can
:33:35. > :33:39.send their child forward. But that is also something to hope that these
:33:40. > :33:46.children that are so young, and with the world in the state that it is,
:33:47. > :33:54.to keep families together, or make sure that we can reunite them, or
:33:55. > :33:58.make sure some adults stays with them and they aren't encouraged to
:33:59. > :34:05.go off on their own. As you say, it leaves open for trafficking or other
:34:06. > :34:09.sorts of violence. On the subject of children, I'd like to turn to one of
:34:10. > :34:14.our young people in the audience here who has been involved in the
:34:15. > :34:23.BBC's school report. You are from Poland 's? As a school in Kent we do
:34:24. > :34:28.charity fundraising work. Do you have any ideas of how we can support
:34:29. > :34:39.young people coming into a community? That's a lovely question.
:34:40. > :34:45.You know, I think I would say is that the best thing you can do,
:34:46. > :34:49.especially at your age, and school is hard, regardless, isn't it?
:34:50. > :34:56.Fitting in is difficult, so the greatest thing is to be a real
:34:57. > :35:01.friend. Beat this new person as you would want to be treated if it was
:35:02. > :35:04.you in that situation, and reach out and ask them about their culture,
:35:05. > :35:11.where they came from, and help others around you. If you see
:35:12. > :35:14.bullying, or people who are not understanding in that respect, the
:35:15. > :35:20.new community lead by example and embrace them, and give them the kind
:35:21. > :35:26.of welcome they deserve. Do you think that the rational centre, that
:35:27. > :35:30.rational discussion about how this crisis can be addressed, is it
:35:31. > :35:36.really possible to find that that can cope with the scale of migration
:35:37. > :35:44.as we have it at present, with the scale of this crisis? It has to be.
:35:45. > :35:49.There's no other way we're going to deal with this crisis. If we deal
:35:50. > :35:59.with it piecemeal, or irrationally, or with this idea river in having
:36:00. > :36:04.their individual and the genders -- of everyone having their individual
:36:05. > :36:10.agendas, we still need to do with it. Yes, we have too. It's the only
:36:11. > :36:18.way forward is is to look at this, the letter of the law, asylum recede
:36:19. > :36:23.jurors. Look at what is causing countries post-conflict not to
:36:24. > :36:26.stabilise. Where they are unable to have good economic futures because
:36:27. > :36:32.we have given them the support in the right way that we should have,
:36:33. > :36:37.for a substantial amount of time. Fair trade, all of it. You can't
:36:38. > :36:47.just look at one thing, you need to look at all of its. Not having
:36:48. > :36:55.politicians fighting over whose idea it was, or how to get elected. You
:36:56. > :37:00.talked about not basing policies on emotion, and part of what you're
:37:01. > :37:04.saying is about a rational conversation. Suggestion that Angela
:37:05. > :37:09.Merkel made, was that based on emotion? Is that not the way to
:37:10. > :37:18.proceed if we are going to address all of this in a long-term way? I
:37:19. > :37:26.can think -- I think it came from a beautiful, emotional place. Maybe
:37:27. > :37:32.people would say at that time, it needed somebody to push forward and
:37:33. > :37:38.show because it was so much negativity and closure, that she
:37:39. > :37:45.wanted to show that there is an openness, in such a way, but I think
:37:46. > :37:52.it's important like situation, when people are coming into a country,
:37:53. > :37:57.that it has to be done... That the best way for it to be done is to be
:37:58. > :38:04.done very carefully, so that the people of the country are prepared,
:38:05. > :38:09.understands and that each person who crosses border goes through a
:38:10. > :38:15.certain system, and those who do not qualify are safely returned. I think
:38:16. > :38:20.it would grow more confidence of the country that is receiving. It would
:38:21. > :38:26.grow for better relationships, less hate, if we can do it in that way.
:38:27. > :38:30.I'm not saying it wasn't one in that way, because I don't know the
:38:31. > :38:38.registration procedures that each individual person in Germany, but I
:38:39. > :38:46.think it was a beautiful thing that said something to the world. But, I
:38:47. > :38:59.do think that we need to have a real order, and we need to be blaming how
:39:00. > :39:03.things are being done -- explaining. You talked about this being a test
:39:04. > :39:10.of our values. The way we approach this that will -- will be something
:39:11. > :39:17.that defines our century. As the international community, is it a
:39:18. > :39:22.test we are failing? Yes. Yes. I think so. Do you have hope,
:39:23. > :39:28.nevertheless, that it can be changed? I think you have to have
:39:29. > :39:34.hope. If you look at the history of man, we've been through darker
:39:35. > :39:40.times. This country has faced very dark times and has risen from the
:39:41. > :39:47.ashes to build a stronger country, building the United Nations, new
:39:48. > :39:53.ways, and news future, strengthening our result. I think this is a time
:39:54. > :39:57.we can come out of stronger and better, but it's going to take that
:39:58. > :40:04.kind of clarity and leadership, but I mean it when I see that it's not
:40:05. > :40:10.something that an idea, I believe is something we know we must do because
:40:11. > :40:15.we are really at breaking point. We are just about out of time. That's
:40:16. > :40:20.all we have time for on this pet broadcast. Thank you to all who has
:40:21. > :40:23.-- have been listening and watching, and thank you very much to Angelina
:40:24. > :40:37.Jolie. Thank you.