0:00:00 > 0:00:00- Subtitles
0:00:00 > 0:00:02- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:00:09 > 0:00:11- The House of Lords, Westminster.
0:00:11 > 0:00:15- A very familiar building - to Lord Elystan Morgan.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17- Today he receives a visitor.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20- His former election agent, - Sir Deian Hopkin.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22- Lovely to see you.
0:00:22 > 0:00:26- I've been thinking, Elystan, - you've experienced Parliament...
0:00:27 > 0:00:29- ..and you were a minister there.
0:00:30 > 0:00:32- You've now moved - to a very different house.
0:00:33 > 0:00:35- How do the two compare?
0:00:35 > 0:00:38- I've been - a member of this house for 34 years.
0:00:38 > 0:00:42- However, I spent close to 20 years - outside of here when I was a judge.
0:00:43 > 0:00:46- There have been - two halves to my life.
0:00:51 > 0:00:54- Lord Elystan - is now in his eighties.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57- He's been a member - of the House of Lords since 1981.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02- Prior to that, he was a solicitor, - a barrister and a judge...
0:01:02 > 0:01:05- ..as well as an MP for Aberystwyth - for eight years.
0:01:06 > 0:01:10- His story begins - in Bow Street, Aberystwyth...
0:01:10 > 0:01:12- ..his current home and birthplace.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15- What I remember most - is the horse game.
0:01:16 > 0:01:20- There were four or six boys...
0:01:20 > 0:01:24- ..with cord - wrapped around each of their arms.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27- Then there was the driver.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30- I didn't know much about horses...
0:01:30 > 0:01:33- ..but I swore and shouted - louder than everyone else.
0:01:33 > 0:01:38- We'd drive around the yard, - scaring the little girls...
0:01:38 > 0:01:42- ..and ruining - their china dolls' houses.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45- We had appalling language.
0:01:45 > 0:01:48- "Get inside, Lock!"
0:01:48 > 0:01:51- "Boxer, you idle rascal, - pull for your life!"
0:01:51 > 0:01:53- "Behave yourself!"
0:01:53 > 0:01:57- There was - plenty of shouting and bawling.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00- He was a mischievous boy.
0:02:00 > 0:02:03- He always got up to - all kinds of mischief.
0:02:03 > 0:02:07- He never quite knew - where to draw the line.
0:02:07 > 0:02:12- He had such a sharp mind.
0:02:13 > 0:02:16- He was inventive in his mischief.
0:02:16 > 0:02:21- ED Jones was the headmaster. - He lived here in Dole.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24- He was an unusual chap. - He was ahead of his time.
0:02:24 > 0:02:26- He was very cultured.
0:02:29 > 0:02:34- I remember having the biggest row - you can imagine from him.
0:02:34 > 0:02:37- It was raining.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41- It was playtime but the children - weren't allowed outside.
0:02:41 > 0:02:45- The teachers had gone - for a cup of tea in the staff room.
0:02:45 > 0:02:49- We were in the headmaster's room, - room number five.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52- His cap was on his desk.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54- I put the cap on my head...
0:02:54 > 0:02:58- ..and pretended to be Mr Jones, - leading the singing.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01- I made up a limerick.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03- "Rumour has it the Duchess of Kent
0:03:03 > 0:03:06- "Washes her backside - with soap and scent."
0:03:06 > 0:03:09- The children were in stitches.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13- All of a sudden, - it fell deathly silent.
0:03:14 > 0:03:16- A silent, sudden lull...
0:03:16 > 0:03:18- ..as Gwyn Jones would put it.
0:03:18 > 0:03:21- Who was standing behind me - but Jones.
0:03:21 > 0:03:25- He berated me harshly - in front of everyone.
0:03:25 > 0:03:28- But it was worth it!
0:03:28 > 0:03:33- The very first memory I have - of Elystan is very fitting...
0:03:34 > 0:03:36- ..because it's to do with politics.
0:03:36 > 0:03:40- Whenever - a general election was held...
0:03:40 > 0:03:45- ..the headmaster - granted us permission...
0:03:45 > 0:03:48- ..to hold - our own election at school...
0:03:48 > 0:03:53- ..which lasted - as long as the proper election.
0:03:53 > 0:03:58- I remember the election - and Elystan stood as a Nationalist.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03- We were - in a packed room at lunchtime...
0:04:03 > 0:04:06- ..and there was - lots of shouting and heckling.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09- Elystan spoke - and there were lots of boos.
0:04:09 > 0:04:14- Elystan said, "You that are - booing now are not booing me...
0:04:15 > 0:04:17- "..but you're booing - your own country."
0:04:18 > 0:04:21- The result was announced - that afternoon.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24- Elystan came out on top.
0:04:24 > 0:04:27- Even in those early days...
0:04:27 > 0:04:29- ..he had the gift of the gab.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32- Nobody could touch him.
0:04:35 > 0:04:39- My mother and father - were interested in politics.
0:04:39 > 0:04:45- They'd often discuss politics - at home when I was growing up.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48- I've no doubt - they were both Socialists...
0:04:48 > 0:04:55- ..and patriotic Nationalists too.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01- If you'd asked them - which they favoured...
0:05:02 > 0:05:05- ..they'd have told you - that both were interlinked.
0:05:06 > 0:05:10- Elystan was brought up - in the Bow Street area.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13- What's interesting - about this area...
0:05:13 > 0:05:18- ..is that it was - a hotbed of early Nationalists...
0:05:19 > 0:05:23- ..of whom Elystan's father, - Dewi Morgan, was one.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26- They were - Nationalists of the 1930s...
0:05:27 > 0:05:29- ..during the party's early history.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32- They were supporters of Plaid Cymru.
0:05:32 > 0:05:35- It was from there that he emerged...
0:05:35 > 0:05:39- ..as a cultured - and linguistic Nationalist...
0:05:39 > 0:05:42- ..who became - increasingly more political.
0:05:42 > 0:05:45- I'd say that Elystan was, - and still is...
0:05:45 > 0:05:48- ..every inch a politician.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53- I don't think I'd ever considered - politics as a profession.
0:05:54 > 0:05:55- How could I?
0:05:56 > 0:06:01- The likelihood of a Nationalist - being elected was very slim.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03- It was almost by accident...
0:06:04 > 0:06:08- ..that I became a parliamentary - candidate for Wrexham...
0:06:08 > 0:06:10- ..at the by-election.
0:06:11 > 0:06:15- If I remember rightly...
0:06:15 > 0:06:18- ..I was only 21 years old - at the time...
0:06:18 > 0:06:21- ..at the end of 1954.
0:06:21 > 0:06:24- I was warmly received in Rhos.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27- There was a real spark...
0:06:27 > 0:06:31- ..to the campaign, - we received 4,500 votes.
0:06:31 > 0:06:34- It was a great experience.
0:06:34 > 0:06:39- Looking back on my life, - it was a fateful decision...
0:06:40 > 0:06:44- ..because it was a few years later - in Wrexham that I met Alwen.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48- That's been my biggest blessing.
0:06:48 > 0:06:51- People talk about - the yin and the yang...
0:06:51 > 0:06:54- ..but Elystan and Alwen - were so different...
0:06:55 > 0:06:58- ..and yet together, - they were a formidable team.
0:06:58 > 0:07:03- He was the joker and the raconteur - who had a lust for life...
0:07:03 > 0:07:06- ..and Alwen was the quiet one.
0:07:06 > 0:07:09- But she always had a gentle smile.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12- She was always in the background.
0:07:15 > 0:07:20- If you look at the 1960s - as a decade...
0:07:20 > 0:07:22- ..it's a period of excitement.
0:07:22 > 0:07:26- For any young man wishing to be - a politician during that time...
0:07:27 > 0:07:31- ..it was a difficult struggle - because nobody could sense...
0:07:31 > 0:07:35- ..where this - enormous social change...
0:07:35 > 0:07:37- ..was going to lead.
0:07:37 > 0:07:42- It was a time when people had - to make decisions and take risks.
0:07:42 > 0:07:48- That's when Elystan Morgan - had to make important decisions...
0:07:48 > 0:07:53- ..that shaped the rest of his life - in terms of his political career.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58- I attended Plaid Cymru's conference - and summer school...
0:07:58 > 0:08:00- ..for the first time in 1959.
0:08:00 > 0:08:05- Elystan, at that time, - was already one of the stars.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08- He was very close to Gwynfor.
0:08:09 > 0:08:11- He was very loyal to Gwynfor.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14- We must remember - that during that time...
0:08:15 > 0:08:19- ..Gwynfor's leadership was - being criticised and challenged...
0:08:19 > 0:08:21- ..from two directions.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24- One, from people - who wanted the party...
0:08:24 > 0:08:28- ..to take direct action in Tryweryn.
0:08:28 > 0:08:32- Another challenge - came from a different direction...
0:08:32 > 0:08:35- ..from a group in southeast Wales...
0:08:35 > 0:08:41- ..who felt that Gwynfor upheld - traditional nationalistic beliefs...
0:08:41 > 0:08:45- ..that were outmoded - for the Wales that was evolving...
0:08:45 > 0:08:48- ..at the end of the 1950s, - early 1960s.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50- In 1964...
0:08:51 > 0:08:53- ..and 1965...
0:08:53 > 0:08:59- ..things were becoming more - and more unsettled in Plaid Cymru...
0:08:59 > 0:09:01- ..on a daily basis.
0:09:03 > 0:09:07- The faction that was determined - to get rid of Gwynfor...
0:09:07 > 0:09:13- ..was strengthening and becoming - more vociferous and hard nosed.
0:09:15 > 0:09:20- Every executive committee was more - downbeat than the one it succeeded.
0:09:20 > 0:09:25- Elystan was seen as a potential - successor for the leadership.
0:09:26 > 0:09:28- In 1964...
0:09:28 > 0:09:31- ..he stood - for the party's deputy leadership.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35- Everyone assumed Elystan - would become deputy leader...
0:09:36 > 0:09:38- ..and Gwynfor's natural successor.
0:09:38 > 0:09:42- But he was challenged - by Chris Rees...
0:09:42 > 0:09:45- ..who was exceptionally bright.
0:09:45 > 0:09:47- Something strange happened.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51- The pair of us were standing...
0:09:51 > 0:09:55- ..for the deputy leadership.
0:09:55 > 0:10:00- As far as the North Wales and - Mid Wales branches were concerned...
0:10:01 > 0:10:04- ..no ballot forms were sent to them.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07- They had to apply for a ballot slip.
0:10:09 > 0:10:14- I can't say if there was any - significance to that but Chris won.
0:10:15 > 0:10:18- He became deputy leader - and Elystan was rejected.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23- I don't think it would've made that - much difference in the long run.
0:10:23 > 0:10:27- Every time - I attended an executive meeting...
0:10:27 > 0:10:33- ..there were disputes and - conspiracies against Gwynfor...
0:10:33 > 0:10:36- ..I wondered what I was doing - amongst this bedlam.
0:10:36 > 0:10:39- What changed the situation...
0:10:39 > 0:10:42- ..was the fact that - the Labour government of 1964...
0:10:43 > 0:10:46- ..created the role - of Secretary of State for Wales.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49- I wanted a secretary for Wales...
0:10:49 > 0:10:52- ..and also - a Welsh Office in Cardiff.
0:10:53 > 0:10:58- The creation - of a secretariat for Wales...
0:10:58 > 0:11:01- ..acknowledged it - as a country and as a nation.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05- You don't appoint a secretary - for a department or a region.
0:11:05 > 0:11:07- I remember thinking...
0:11:08 > 0:11:11- ..that anything was possible - after that.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14- In the end, in 1965...
0:11:14 > 0:11:18- ..I decided to join - the Labour Party.
0:11:21 > 0:11:25- I was at - the National Eisteddfod in Newtown.
0:11:25 > 0:11:30- The late Dafydd Hughes came up to me - and said, "Elystan's gone.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33- "He's left - and joined the Labour Party."
0:11:33 > 0:11:35- It was a shock.
0:11:35 > 0:11:39- ELYSTAN'S ASTOUNDING DECISION
0:11:39 > 0:11:42- I'll continue to be a nationalist, - he says.
0:11:43 > 0:11:45- I still maintain - I did the right thing.
0:11:50 > 0:11:50- .
0:11:53 > 0:11:53- Subtitles
0:11:53 > 0:11:55- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:11:55 > 0:11:57- After leaving Plaid Cymru...
0:11:58 > 0:12:01- ..Elystan Morgan - returned to Ceredigion in 1966...
0:12:01 > 0:12:06- ..to stand as a Member of Parliament - for the Labour Party.
0:12:09 > 0:12:14- I remember - the first time I met Elystan.
0:12:14 > 0:12:18- It was on a Friday night - in Bridge Street, Aberystwyth...
0:12:18 > 0:12:20- ..at the Labour Party's office.
0:12:20 > 0:12:24- I was meeting the new candidate...
0:12:24 > 0:12:27- ..who'd recently been selected.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30- Good grief, - what an impression he made.
0:12:30 > 0:12:32- I wasn't sure what to expect.
0:12:32 > 0:12:36- People knew he'd left Plaid Cymru - and he was famous for that.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41- Now he'd been chosen as - a potential candidate for Labour.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43- There were a lot of doubters.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45- But I have to say...
0:12:45 > 0:12:49- ..he won the entire audience over - just like that.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52- He had remarkable presence.
0:12:52 > 0:12:57- When I became a candidate, - I didn't think I was likely to win.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01- I felt there was a grudge against - the Labour Party in Cardiganshire...
0:13:02 > 0:13:04- ..and that it'd be difficult - to overcome that.
0:13:05 > 0:13:07- Cardiganshire is an island...
0:13:07 > 0:13:10- ..and is almost totally insulated...
0:13:10 > 0:13:14- ..from all the general trends - of British politics.
0:13:15 > 0:13:19- Alwen and I had been canvassing - all around the county...
0:13:19 > 0:13:21- ..but mostly in the south.
0:13:21 > 0:13:23- We came back to Penparcau...
0:13:24 > 0:13:27- ..where there was - a huge queue of people...
0:13:28 > 0:13:29- ..waiting their turn.
0:13:30 > 0:13:34- It was somewhere around - seven or eight o'clock at night.
0:13:34 > 0:13:36- Each of them gave me a thumb's up.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38- I remember telling Alwen...
0:13:39 > 0:13:41- .."It could happen."
0:13:41 > 0:13:46- Dafydd Elystan, 11,000...
0:13:46 > 0:13:48- LOUD CHEERING
0:13:51 > 0:13:54- We found out - the following day that he'd won.
0:13:54 > 0:13:57- Dad and Mam came back...
0:13:57 > 0:14:01- ..with a leather football for me - and blue roller skates for you.
0:14:02 > 0:14:04- I remember that.
0:14:04 > 0:14:07- The family - in the north of Cardiganshire...
0:14:07 > 0:14:10- ..emerged from everywhere - like rabbits!
0:14:10 > 0:14:14- Someone'd say to me, "I've - never voted Labour, Morgans"...
0:14:14 > 0:14:17- ..as if he was saying - he'd never been to jail!
0:14:18 > 0:14:20- "You're my fourth cousin."
0:14:20 > 0:14:25- Another would say, "My grandmother - worked for your grandfather."
0:14:25 > 0:14:28- I thought the world of them.
0:14:28 > 0:14:32- I saw dozens of small - quarter-of-an-inch crosses...
0:14:32 > 0:14:36- ..but they were enough - to make up the 550 majority.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39- For many of us - who are Labour members...
0:14:39 > 0:14:41- ..Welsh affairs...
0:14:41 > 0:14:44- ..are an integral part - of our socialism.
0:14:44 > 0:14:49- Do you remember us taking Dad to the - London train on a Monday morning?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51- Yes, every week.
0:14:51 > 0:14:52- Yes, every week.- - Down to Borth.
0:14:53 > 0:14:57- It was so early in the morning, - we'd go in our pyjamas.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00- With an anorak over our pyjamas.
0:15:00 > 0:15:03- We'd get up at six on a Monday - morning and it was always a race.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07- If the signal was down in Glanwern, - the train was on its way...
0:15:07 > 0:15:09- ..and it was a real dash.
0:15:10 > 0:15:14- But I remember the railway men - holding the train for him.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16- They'd wait for him if he was late.
0:15:16 > 0:15:19- He was on holiday one week - and hadn't told them.
0:15:19 > 0:15:24- They phoned him at home on Monday to - say the train was waiting for him.
0:15:24 > 0:15:27- Goes to show - how things have changed.
0:15:31 > 0:15:36- If you look at Elystan's time - in Parliament from 1966-1974...
0:15:36 > 0:15:40- ..Labour won the highest number - of seats it's ever won in Wales...
0:15:40 > 0:15:42- ..in its history.
0:15:42 > 0:15:46- It was a period of social change - and a time of great hope.
0:15:46 > 0:15:50- Everyone felt hopeful - and confident about the future.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53- Everything's happened very quickly.
0:15:53 > 0:15:56- I never thought - it'd happen like this.
0:15:56 > 0:16:02- I'd never - entertained the idea before.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06- I became a Labour candidate - in no time at all...
0:16:06 > 0:16:09- ..became a member - a few months afterwards...
0:16:10 > 0:16:13- ..and then an MP two years later.
0:16:13 > 0:16:16- I sometimes search - my head and my heart...
0:16:17 > 0:16:22- ..to consider if my motives - are merely for personal gain...
0:16:23 > 0:16:25- ..but I'm certain they are not.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30- When I became a minister - at the Home Office in 1968...
0:16:30 > 0:16:34- ..it meant you had to - deal with these problems...
0:16:34 > 0:16:38- ..when the constituency - was 200 miles from Westminster.
0:16:38 > 0:16:43- It was a small boundary - with 500 or more constituents.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46- You were a minister - seven days a week.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50- Things arose - and you had to deal with them.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54- What I remember most - is the phone ringing non-stop.
0:16:54 > 0:16:56- Non-stop.
0:16:56 > 0:16:59- On weekends, - when things got too much...
0:16:59 > 0:17:04- ..they'd take the phone off the hook - and put cushions on top of it!
0:17:04 > 0:17:08- The exchange would try to contact us - to say something was wrong.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11- To see - if there was a fault on the line.
0:17:11 > 0:17:16- I'd often hear my father cursing - about the phone.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24- I didn't realize it at the time...
0:17:24 > 0:17:27- ..but when you have - a family of your own...
0:17:27 > 0:17:31- ..you realize how much - of a sacrifice it was for Mam.
0:17:31 > 0:17:34- On top of what she did - as the wife of an MP...
0:17:34 > 0:17:39- ..and her work in the constituency - and with charities and so on...
0:17:39 > 0:17:43- ..she brought us up single-handedly - from Monday to Friday.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45- She had to fit in...
0:17:45 > 0:17:49- ..with everything in the diary - as well as run the house.
0:17:49 > 0:17:51- I'm sure it was tough.
0:17:54 > 0:17:55- When I'm in London...
0:17:55 > 0:18:00- ..as Williams Pantycelyn would say, - "I'm a stranger here.
0:18:00 > 0:18:03- "I'm a long way from my homeland."
0:18:03 > 0:18:07- It's heavenly to return - on a Thursday or a Friday night...
0:18:07 > 0:18:10- ..to my home.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16- But we did escape.
0:18:16 > 0:18:20- In his spare time, - ever since I was a young boy...
0:18:20 > 0:18:25- ..we'd get up at about 5.00am - and go fishing in Plas-y-mynydd.
0:18:25 > 0:18:28- He wrecked the car - getting up there, mind you!
0:18:28 > 0:18:32- The garage - fitted a new exhaust on a Friday...
0:18:32 > 0:18:35- ..and he'd knocked it off - by the Sunday night!
0:18:38 > 0:18:41- It was obvious, - even to a blind man...
0:18:41 > 0:18:45- ..that my time in the House - of Commons would be short-lived.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48- It was never a case - of moving the family to London.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52- Even if I'd had - a longer term there...
0:18:52 > 0:18:55- ..the idea of moving out of Wales...
0:18:55 > 0:18:58- ..went against - everything I believed.
0:19:00 > 0:19:04- Elystan Morgan has been a Labour MP - in the county since 1966.
0:19:04 > 0:19:08- He's currently the opposition's - spokesman for Welsh affairs.
0:19:08 > 0:19:12- If you consider - what happened to Elystan in 1974...
0:19:12 > 0:19:15- ..there were - several factors at work.
0:19:15 > 0:19:20- The Labour Party was gaining ground - in Britain during the '74 election.
0:19:20 > 0:19:23- It was only in Wales - that it was losing ground.
0:19:23 > 0:19:30- In 1974, those who would've voted - for Plaid Cymru in Ceredigion...
0:19:30 > 0:19:35- ..would've voted for Geraint Howells - in order to oust Elystan.
0:19:36 > 0:19:41- Some kind of political evangelism - is happening in Wales at the moment.
0:19:41 > 0:19:45- You're either saved because - you belong to a particular party...
0:19:45 > 0:19:49- ..or you're damned because - you belong to the wrong party.
0:19:49 > 0:19:54- Part of that stems from the fact - he changed parties, of course...
0:19:54 > 0:19:57- ..but also because of the dispute...
0:19:57 > 0:20:01- ..over Welsh-medium - secondary education in Aberystwyth.
0:20:01 > 0:20:04- There were two - secondary schools in Aberystwyth.
0:20:05 > 0:20:09- Ysgol Dinas and Ardwyn Grammar - School, Elystan's former school.
0:20:09 > 0:20:13- During the early '70s, there were - calls to change the system.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17- A campaign was launched to introduce - Welsh-medium education in the town.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22- I was part of a committee - campaigning for a bilingual school.
0:20:22 > 0:20:25- We heard - that Elystan was against the idea.
0:20:26 > 0:20:30- It was disappointing for us because - he was a staunch nationalist.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33- It was disappointing - that he'd left the party.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38- However, he was a Labour MP - and had considerable influence.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41- Many of the college's - English contingent...
0:20:41 > 0:20:45- ..along with a few Welsh natives - were against it.
0:20:45 > 0:20:49- I thought Elystan was against it - because his Labour supporters were.
0:20:50 > 0:20:54- I remember - a public meeting was held...
0:20:55 > 0:20:59- ..at the Queen's Hotel - on the prom in Aberystwyth.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02- A letter was read out - in that meeting.
0:21:02 > 0:21:06- Elystan wanted the letter - to be read publicly.
0:21:06 > 0:21:09- He said - he was against a bilingual school...
0:21:10 > 0:21:14- ..in a Welsh region such as this, - which was nonsense.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17- When the Welsh school debate - arose...
0:21:17 > 0:21:19- ..I remember thinking...
0:21:20 > 0:21:24- ..I wonder - if it's possible in Aberystwyth...
0:21:26 > 0:21:30- ..to have - a Welsh-medium secondary school...
0:21:31 > 0:21:33- ..and an English-medium school - in one?
0:21:34 > 0:21:38- So you had one school, one - headmaster, two different blocks.
0:21:38 > 0:21:43- I still think such a school - would've been possible in the 1960s.
0:21:43 > 0:21:45- It wouldn't be possible nowadays.
0:21:45 > 0:21:48- The dispute became quite vicious.
0:21:48 > 0:21:53- You were either in favour of a Welsh - school, of a classical nature...
0:21:54 > 0:21:56- ..or you were a traitor.
0:21:57 > 0:22:01- I look back on it - as an unhappy chapter in my life.
0:22:01 > 0:22:06- There was a fierce campaign, - vicious at times...
0:22:06 > 0:22:09- ..between parents in this region...
0:22:09 > 0:22:13- ..who were both in favour - and opposed to the school.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15- I remember there was a meeting...
0:22:16 > 0:22:20- ..in which English as well as some - Welsh people were against the idea.
0:22:21 > 0:22:23- More people were opposed to it.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25- More people were opposed to it.- - For many Welsh-speaking natives...
0:22:25 > 0:22:28- ..it was a second betrayal - by Elystan.
0:22:28 > 0:22:34- If his move from Plaid Cymru to the - Labour Party could be forgiven...
0:22:34 > 0:22:37- ..then there was no forgiving him...
0:22:37 > 0:22:41- ..for appearing to be spouting...
0:22:41 > 0:22:44- ..extreme anti-Welsh feeling...
0:22:45 > 0:22:49- ..within some circles - of the Labour Party in Ceredigion.
0:22:50 > 0:22:55- As someone who's been through the - education system in Ceredigion...
0:22:55 > 0:22:59- ..I attended both schools, so I'm - not loyal to one in particular.
0:22:59 > 0:23:04- There's a tendency to believe that - those who went to Penglais School...
0:23:05 > 0:23:07- ..certainly - when I was a pupil there...
0:23:08 > 0:23:12- ..that they were deprived of - their Welshness, to a large degree.
0:23:12 > 0:23:15- Friends of mine - who'd gone away to university...
0:23:15 > 0:23:19- ..had trouble describing - to their new friends...
0:23:19 > 0:23:22- ..what it meant to be Welsh.
0:23:22 > 0:23:27- One friend came back from university - and went to Lampeter to learn Welsh.
0:23:27 > 0:23:31- The education system in Ceredigion - could've done that for him.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35- Many things Elystan said...
0:23:36 > 0:23:39- ..to try and rationalize - his thoughts about it...
0:23:39 > 0:23:44- ..made perfect sense to residents - who'd attended those schools.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47- It was a matter of principle - for Elystan.
0:23:48 > 0:23:52- He thought it was a disadvantage - for Welsh speakers...
0:23:52 > 0:23:55- ..to be separated and segregated.
0:23:55 > 0:24:00- It's an honourable argument - but a very unpopular one.
0:24:00 > 0:24:04- I believe he lost a lot of support - because of that.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06- We were defeated in Cardiganshire.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09- We increased our votes.
0:24:10 > 0:24:14- I was beaten by Geraint Howells, - a very affable man.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18- It was disappointing - but not surprising.
0:24:19 > 0:24:23- I feel very privileged - to have spent eight years...
0:24:23 > 0:24:26- ..as an MP for Cardiganshire.
0:24:27 > 0:24:30- There was personal disappointment.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33- He'd done that job for years...
0:24:34 > 0:24:36- ..what was he going to do now?
0:24:36 > 0:24:41- The following day, you went from - having a job to being unemployed.
0:24:42 > 0:24:45- You might expect me to say this...
0:24:45 > 0:24:49- ..but losing Elystan from - Welsh politics is a huge loss...
0:24:50 > 0:24:53- ..because he had - those innate skills...
0:24:55 > 0:25:00- ..that I believe are essential - for a leadership role in Wales.
0:25:00 > 0:25:05- He didn't get the chance to lead, - and that's a pity.
0:25:05 > 0:25:07- He was an MP for eight years.
0:25:07 > 0:25:10- For two of them...
0:25:10 > 0:25:13- ..he served as a minister - at the Home Office.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17- If Harold Wilson - had won the 1970 general election...
0:25:18 > 0:25:22- ..I hope he would've put Elystan - in the Welsh Office...
0:25:23 > 0:25:27- ..and because of Elystan's love - for Wales and his knowledge of it...
0:25:28 > 0:25:31- ..he would've made - a wonderful secretary.
0:25:31 > 0:25:35- But it didn't happen - and then he lost his seat in 1974.
0:25:36 > 0:25:39- But in 1979, who led the campaign...
0:25:39 > 0:25:42- ..for a parliament for Wales?
0:25:42 > 0:25:44- Elystan.
0:25:44 > 0:25:48- Either Wales - will take a bold step forward...
0:25:48 > 0:25:53- ..a progressive step of faith - and of confidence in its future...
0:25:54 > 0:25:59- ..or it will lurch into a miserable - retreat of defeatism and despair.
0:25:59 > 0:26:01- Mr Morgan, thank you.
0:26:01 > 0:26:02- .
0:26:03 > 0:26:03- *
0:26:03 > 0:26:08- Nowadays, the Senedd is an integral - part of Wales' political landscape.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12- But during the 1970s, - devolution was still a dream.
0:26:12 > 0:26:17- Those in favour of more powers - for Wales secured a referendum...
0:26:17 > 0:26:20- ..in 1979.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24- So many of us believe...
0:26:24 > 0:26:28- ..that establishing - legislation for the language...
0:26:29 > 0:26:33- ..is a civil right and ensures the - continuation of the Welsh language.
0:26:33 > 0:26:35- Like the rest of us...
0:26:35 > 0:26:39- ..Elystan threw his heart and soul - into the devolution campaign.
0:26:40 > 0:26:45- The decision taken by the people - of Wales on March the first...
0:26:45 > 0:26:50- ..will be one of the most fateful in - the history of the nation of Wales.
0:26:50 > 0:26:53- The biggest disappointment - for us all...
0:26:53 > 0:26:58- ..was the acrimonious split - within the Labour Party itself.
0:26:58 > 0:27:00- Devolution's biggest enemy...
0:27:01 > 0:27:04- ..was Labour Party members - like Neil Kinnock.
0:27:04 > 0:27:08- Now that - is very bad news for Britain.
0:27:08 > 0:27:13- It could be an obituary notice for - this movement. That's the situation.
0:27:14 > 0:27:20- I hadn't realized there was - so much hatred towards Welshness.
0:27:20 > 0:27:24- Hatred from people who you assumed - didn't have an opinion...
0:27:24 > 0:27:27- ..one way or another, - but it was ingrained in them.
0:27:28 > 0:27:32- You could forgive them if they said, - "I'm not interested"...
0:27:32 > 0:27:34- ..but it was hatred.
0:27:34 > 0:27:38- Elystan accepted this role...
0:27:38 > 0:27:40- ..of leading - the referendum campaign...
0:27:41 > 0:27:43- ..when there was a glimmer of hope.
0:27:43 > 0:27:47- It was clear months before the vote - that it wasn't going to happen...
0:27:47 > 0:27:52- ..but Elystan carried on in order - to keep the campaign going...
0:27:52 > 0:27:56- ..in a respectable way - when the likely outcome was obvious.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59- We failed miserably.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01- Four votes to one against.
0:28:03 > 0:28:07- It was the biggest blow for me - in my public life.
0:28:07 > 0:28:10- I felt as though - I'd let everyone down.
0:28:10 > 0:28:14- I also felt perhaps - this was Wales' last chance...
0:28:14 > 0:28:16- ..and that the opportunity...
0:28:16 > 0:28:20- ..to make a significant - constitutional change had been lost.
0:28:20 > 0:28:26- Dad was far more disappointed about - losing the referendum vote in '79...
0:28:26 > 0:28:30- ..than of losing - the parliamentary vote.
0:28:30 > 0:28:34- I think he was shocked, - more than anything...
0:28:34 > 0:28:37- ..that they had been - so badly defeated.
0:28:37 > 0:28:39- He thought the chance had been lost.
0:28:40 > 0:28:44- He often said, "I'll never see - a Welsh parliament in my lifetime."
0:28:44 > 0:28:47- He said that many a time - with tears in his eyes.
0:28:47 > 0:28:51- Despite it being - an unsuccessful campaign...
0:28:51 > 0:28:56- ..he was still very influential - in many people's minds.
0:28:56 > 0:28:58- The party was against him...
0:28:58 > 0:29:02- ..and I'm sure - it had an effect on the 1997 vote.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05- That was - Elystan's greatest contribution.
0:29:08 > 0:29:11- It was the boy - from Bow Street's dream...
0:29:11 > 0:29:14- ..to work in the legal profession.
0:29:15 > 0:29:17- He graduated - from Aberystwyth in 1953.
0:29:18 > 0:29:22- Shortly afterwards, he found a job - with a law firm in Wrexham.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27- Elystan has a phenomenal memory.
0:29:27 > 0:29:32- He can quote - English and Welsh poetry...
0:29:32 > 0:29:35- ..perfectly off by heart.
0:29:36 > 0:29:39- I remember being at a party - with Elystan locally.
0:29:40 > 0:29:44- We talked at length about books, - literature and poetry.
0:29:45 > 0:29:47- I remember saying to him...
0:29:47 > 0:29:50- .."I'd love to know - as much about law...
0:29:51 > 0:29:54- "..as you know - about Welsh poetry."
0:29:54 > 0:29:58- He said, "I'd love to know - as much about law...
0:29:59 > 0:30:01- "..as I know about Welsh poetry!"
0:30:02 > 0:30:04- He was joking, of course.
0:30:04 > 0:30:09- He's one of our finest solicitors - and formidable legal minds.
0:30:11 > 0:30:15- I was a partner at a law firm...
0:30:15 > 0:30:20- ..called Lloyd & Emyr Williams, - Wrexham, and I enjoyed it immensely.
0:30:20 > 0:30:24- Most of the work centred around - conveyancing and probate.
0:30:24 > 0:30:28- But I'd often go to court - and thoroughly enjoyed it.
0:30:29 > 0:30:35- He's known as a man who can - sympathize with his fellow man.
0:30:36 > 0:30:38- He shows understanding...
0:30:38 > 0:30:43- ..and realizes some people haven't - had the opportunities we've had...
0:30:43 > 0:30:46- ..and that their circumstances - are difficult.
0:30:47 > 0:30:50- That was very evident - in the way he made his verdicts.
0:30:52 > 0:30:56- I remember a court - chaired by a colonel...
0:30:57 > 0:30:59- ..who'd retired from the army.
0:30:59 > 0:31:01- It was a very strange case.
0:31:01 > 0:31:04- A case between father and son...
0:31:04 > 0:31:06- ..who were both farmers.
0:31:06 > 0:31:10- They were honest people, - not very literate.
0:31:11 > 0:31:16- There was a dispute between them - and a seed company or something...
0:31:16 > 0:31:18- ..if I remember rightly.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21- In the end, a writ was issued...
0:31:22 > 0:31:25- ..against them.
0:31:25 > 0:31:29- The bailiffs turned up - to administer the summons.
0:31:29 > 0:31:33- The father and son - had taken ownership of the farm.
0:31:33 > 0:31:38- They caught hold of the bailiff...
0:31:38 > 0:31:42- ..tied him with a rope - in the barn...
0:31:42 > 0:31:47- ..and the son went into the house - to fetch a 12-bore shotgun...
0:31:47 > 0:31:49- ..and loaded it with bullets.
0:31:49 > 0:31:51- It was an awful thing to do.
0:31:51 > 0:31:55- These people had totally - misunderstood the situation.
0:31:58 > 0:32:04- For me, and it was - nothing less than the truth...
0:32:04 > 0:32:07- ..but it came down - to their illiteracy.
0:32:07 > 0:32:09- They were monoglots.
0:32:10 > 0:32:16- The colonel said, "Nonsense. There - are no monoglots in Wales today."
0:32:19 > 0:32:23- I said, - "Well, sir, I beg to differ.
0:32:24 > 0:32:27- "It may be that you yourself - are a monoglot."
0:32:27 > 0:32:30- He was enraged.
0:32:30 > 0:32:33- "And by that I mean - that if it be the case...
0:32:33 > 0:32:37- "..that you are less than fluent in - any language other than English...
0:32:38 > 0:32:41- "..that is what - I would describe as monoglot."
0:32:42 > 0:32:47- There were Welsh speakers on - the bench and they agreed with me.
0:32:48 > 0:32:52- In the end, the father and son - were found not guilty.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56- Justice prevailed.
0:32:57 > 0:33:01- But that's the kind of situation - you were faced with.
0:33:01 > 0:33:06- You felt as if you were up against - a certain type of social pattern...
0:33:06 > 0:33:11- ..that belonged to the Middle Ages - rather than the 20th century.
0:33:14 > 0:33:17- During his time - as a Member of Parliament...
0:33:17 > 0:33:22- ..Elystan still worked as a - solicitor and later as a barrister.
0:33:23 > 0:33:27- After losing his seat, he returned - to work full time as a barrister.
0:33:28 > 0:33:31- Then, in 1986, - he was appointed a judge.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36- Half the time, - I worked on prosecutions.
0:33:36 > 0:33:38- I was pleased with that...
0:33:38 > 0:33:42- ..as I'd spent most my time - as a prosecuting barrister.
0:33:42 > 0:33:47- I spent the rest of my time - as a family court judge.
0:33:48 > 0:33:52- This is very different work.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57- What you try to do - is do what's best for the child.
0:33:59 > 0:34:04- That doesn't necessarily mean that - you can always do what's just...
0:34:04 > 0:34:07- ..in the eyes of the parents.
0:34:07 > 0:34:10- These are very serious decisions...
0:34:10 > 0:34:13- ..that will affect a child - for the rest of his life.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17- When you're a judge - on prosecution cases...
0:34:17 > 0:34:22- ..you can impose a custodial - sentence, but that comes to an end.
0:34:22 > 0:34:25- When you make a decision - about a child's future...
0:34:25 > 0:34:27- ..it affects his entire life.
0:34:28 > 0:34:33- You get cases where you're listening - to the evidence for several days.
0:34:35 > 0:34:40- Sometimes the mother - leaves the court jubilant...
0:34:40 > 0:34:44- ..because she's been - awarded custody of the children.
0:34:44 > 0:34:49- The father has failed and feels - as if the world has caved in on him.
0:34:50 > 0:34:54- It's important in those cases - that both parties realize...
0:34:54 > 0:34:58- ..that they continue - to be parents to those children...
0:34:58 > 0:35:01- ..and that they have - responsibilities...
0:35:01 > 0:35:06- ..if an adoption doesn't take place, - to be good parents all their lives.
0:35:06 > 0:35:10- It's no surprise that - he made his mark as a barrister...
0:35:10 > 0:35:15- ..because he was very careful - and highly respected...
0:35:15 > 0:35:18- ..among solicitors and barristers.
0:35:18 > 0:35:22- I've appeared before him - as a young solicitor.
0:35:22 > 0:35:26- Of course, there were - numerous judges at the time...
0:35:26 > 0:35:31- ..who didn't like to see solicitors - leading crown and county courts.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35- Many believed - only barristers should do that.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37- He wasn't one of those.
0:35:37 > 0:35:43- You always knew he'd be courteous - and that he'd be fair.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46- It happens in all courts, - I don't doubt...
0:35:47 > 0:35:50- ..but he was - always very cautious in his job.
0:35:50 > 0:35:52- He was ready to assist.
0:35:53 > 0:35:56- His verdicts...
0:35:56 > 0:35:59- ..were examples - of perfect mastery....
0:35:59 > 0:36:02- ..of the Welsh and English language.
0:36:02 > 0:36:07- If there's one thing that stands out - as Elystan's contribution...
0:36:07 > 0:36:10- ..to the legal world in Wales...
0:36:10 > 0:36:14- ..I'd choose his efforts to ensure - the Welsh language in our courts.
0:36:15 > 0:36:17- He promoted the use of the language.
0:36:18 > 0:36:23- He helped translate legal documents.
0:36:23 > 0:36:27- He ensured they were used - throughout the courts...
0:36:27 > 0:36:30- ..especially those in North Wales.
0:36:30 > 0:36:33- And, of course, when he sat...
0:36:34 > 0:36:36- ..Welsh was used every day...
0:36:36 > 0:36:40- ..and there's nothing better - than that to promote the language...
0:36:41 > 0:36:45- ..and make it clear that Welsh - is acceptable in our courts.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51- After a career as a solicitor, - barrister and judge...
0:36:52 > 0:36:55- ..Elystan returned to Westminster.
0:36:55 > 0:36:59- Britain's legal and political world - is very important to him.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02- I think it was Shaw who said...
0:37:02 > 0:37:07- .."Scratch an Englishman - and you'll find a Conservative."
0:37:07 > 0:37:11- That conservatism - is deeply ingrained in England.
0:37:20 > 0:37:20- .
0:37:21 > 0:37:21- Subtitles
0:37:21 > 0:37:23- Subtitles- - Subtitles
0:37:25 > 0:37:29- Solicitor, politician, - MP, Home Office Minister...
0:37:29 > 0:37:31- ..barrister and judge.
0:37:32 > 0:37:35- But to lifelong friends, - Lord Elystan Morgan...
0:37:35 > 0:37:39- ..is still the same mischievous lad - from Bow Street.
0:37:40 > 0:37:42- I often think to myself...
0:37:43 > 0:37:45- ..when I see him on television...
0:37:45 > 0:37:48- ..or in chapel - on a Sunday morning...
0:37:48 > 0:37:51- ..the mannerly judge and lord...
0:37:51 > 0:37:56- ..that lurking - just behind that exterior...
0:37:56 > 0:37:59- ..is the Elystan I know.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03- A mischievous creature.
0:38:03 > 0:38:05- He'll never change.
0:38:11 > 0:38:15- I very much hoped - there'd be a Labour government.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18- I expected it - to be a minority government...
0:38:18 > 0:38:22- ..but I was astounded - that the Tories took such a lead...
0:38:22 > 0:38:25- ..after five years in power.
0:38:25 > 0:38:30- I think they're cheekier now - than they were in a coalition.
0:38:32 > 0:38:38- In my opinion, the Liberals were - very unwise to unite with them.
0:38:39 > 0:38:43- They were shackled, - to a certain degree.
0:38:43 > 0:38:45- Now those have gone...
0:38:45 > 0:38:49- ..we see conservatism laid bare.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51- I've no doubt about that.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55- When you think about it - from Wales' perspective...
0:38:56 > 0:38:59- ..there's - a historical connection to it.
0:38:59 > 0:39:03- The Ballot Act was passed in 1872...
0:39:03 > 0:39:07- ..which meant landowners - could no longer use their sway...
0:39:07 > 0:39:13- ..to influence the votes of tenant - farmers, who risked being evicted.
0:39:13 > 0:39:17- Ever since then, - the Tories have never succeeded...
0:39:17 > 0:39:22- ..in any parliamentary election, - a Westminster election, that is...
0:39:22 > 0:39:26- ..to win a majority in Wales - - either of seats or of votes.
0:39:26 > 0:39:30- It says a lot - - over a lengthy period of time...
0:39:30 > 0:39:34- ..if ever there was - an anti-Tory country or nation...
0:39:34 > 0:39:36- ..then it's ours.
0:39:40 > 0:39:42- One of Elystan's characteristics...
0:39:43 > 0:39:48- ..that is perhaps unfamiliar - to everyone who knows him well...
0:39:49 > 0:39:52- ..is his tendency to sob.
0:39:52 > 0:39:55- Honestly, to sob.
0:39:55 > 0:40:00- When he quotes a particular poem...
0:40:00 > 0:40:02- ..or reads specific poetry...
0:40:02 > 0:40:05- ..he has a tendency to break down.
0:40:06 > 0:40:09- I think that's - an endearing characteristic.
0:40:09 > 0:40:13- There are - many things that move me to tears.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16- A particular piece - of music or poetry.
0:40:18 > 0:40:21- Or circumstances I hear about.
0:40:21 > 0:40:23- I'm an emotional creature.
0:40:24 > 0:40:26- There's one poem...
0:40:26 > 0:40:29- ..he often asks me to recite.
0:40:29 > 0:40:33- It's by R Williams Parry, - about a doctor who dies...
0:40:33 > 0:40:35- ..and the poet visits his grave.
0:40:36 > 0:40:41- It's called Yr Hen Ddoctor, - about Dr Edward Rees, Caersws.
0:40:41 > 0:40:44- "I knocked - on the familiar door last night
0:40:44 > 0:40:49- "Where many a traveller - was welcomed to Caersws
0:40:49 > 0:40:53- "But my knocking was in vain, - the doctor wasn't at home."
0:40:53 > 0:40:57- Someone tells him - his home is elsewhere now.
0:40:57 > 0:41:02- "I rushed through Caersws - and found his new dwelling
0:41:02 > 0:41:07- "I reached a solitary green, - where I knocked at the door
0:41:07 > 0:41:10- "Though my knocking was in vain, - the doctor was at home."
0:41:10 > 0:41:12- By this point, Elystan's sobbing.
0:41:19 > 0:41:22- That's the meeting - after you won the election.
0:41:23 > 0:41:25- Yes, that's right.
0:41:25 > 0:41:28- They put a picture - of the House of Commons on stage.
0:41:29 > 0:41:32- It made a wonderful screen.
0:41:32 > 0:41:35- That was the House of Lords in 1981.
0:41:35 > 0:41:37- You two were at home with Mam.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40- I don't know - if it's the robe or not...
0:41:40 > 0:41:44- ..but I've never looked so pompous - in all my life!
0:41:44 > 0:41:48- I think the robe - contributes somewhat to that.
0:41:48 > 0:41:54- I think life became more difficult - for Elystan after losing Alwen.
0:41:56 > 0:41:58- She was - the best possible wife for Elystan.
0:41:59 > 0:42:01- He told me once...
0:42:01 > 0:42:05- ..that he found summer holidays - way too long...
0:42:06 > 0:42:10- ..because there's only - so many times you can trim a hedge.
0:42:10 > 0:42:13- For someone - with Elystan's mind and energy...
0:42:13 > 0:42:16- ..he constantly wants to be working.
0:42:17 > 0:42:20- My advice to the government - therefore would be...
0:42:20 > 0:42:23- ..in the words of Corporal Jones...
0:42:23 > 0:42:25- .."Don't panic."
0:42:25 > 0:42:31- Devolution is indeed - the birth-right of this nation.
0:42:32 > 0:42:37- Nowadays, almost everything brought - before the House of Commons...
0:42:38 > 0:42:40- ..is timed to precision.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44- There are complaints - that there isn't enough time...
0:42:44 > 0:42:48- ..to discuss legislation - properly and at length.
0:42:49 > 0:42:53- However, in the House of Lords, - and following on from tradition...
0:42:54 > 0:42:56- ..there's no restrictions on time.
0:42:56 > 0:43:00- If the House of Lords wants a month - to discuss something, it's granted.
0:43:01 > 0:43:06- Debates in the House of Lords - are lengthy and important...
0:43:06 > 0:43:09- ..in order to reinforce laws.
0:43:09 > 0:43:12- They also iron out mistakes - made by the House of Commons...
0:43:13 > 0:43:15- ..due to laws being rushed through.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18- The case - for the Cardiff Assembly was...
0:43:19 > 0:43:24- ..that there had been, - under section 108, a transfer...
0:43:25 > 0:43:29- It's a comfort to know there are - people like Dafydd Wigley...
0:43:29 > 0:43:32- ..and Elystan Morgan there...
0:43:32 > 0:43:35- ..to interpret - on behalf of the Welsh nation.
0:43:35 > 0:43:40- It's important they're there - to make a cross-party contribution.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43- For me, as someone - from a Labour background...
0:43:43 > 0:43:47- ..it's refreshing - to see someone who's comfortable...
0:43:48 > 0:43:52- ..in his nationalistic guise - within that party...
0:43:53 > 0:43:55- ..as opposed to someone...
0:43:55 > 0:43:59- ..who's leading the way for - many people on the left, perhaps...
0:43:59 > 0:44:03- ..and not yet found - his place in Plaid Cymru...
0:44:03 > 0:44:08- ..but who shows you can - still be loyal to Welsh affairs...
0:44:08 > 0:44:11- ..and the Welsh language - and so on...
0:44:11 > 0:44:15- ..without necessarily - being a member of Plaid Cymru...
0:44:15 > 0:44:18- ..and that everyone - has a role to play.
0:44:18 > 0:44:23- There's more of a demand - for clear, loud voices...
0:44:23 > 0:44:26- ..from - a Welsh nationalist party...
0:44:27 > 0:44:30- ..in Welsh politics - in Cardiff and Westminster...
0:44:30 > 0:44:32- ..more than ever before.
0:44:33 > 0:44:36- There's an urgent need - for a major boost once again...
0:44:37 > 0:44:42- ..especially when there's talk - of increasing AM numbers...
0:44:42 > 0:44:46- ..from 60 at present, - which is outrageously low.
0:44:47 > 0:44:51- By the time you've extracted - ministers, chairpersons...
0:44:51 > 0:44:54- ..and those - with administrative roles...
0:44:54 > 0:44:57- ..it leaves you with 40 people.
0:44:57 > 0:45:01- How on earth can you sustain a - parliament under such circumstances?
0:45:02 > 0:45:06- If you want to make it impossible - for that parliament...
0:45:06 > 0:45:10- ..to carry out its daily functions, - then do nothing...
0:45:10 > 0:45:13- ..and leave - that lamentable situation alone.
0:45:19 > 0:45:23- There's no need to be a prophet - to foresee that Welsh affairs...
0:45:23 > 0:45:26- ..will have a prominent place - in the new parliament.
0:45:27 > 0:45:31- Perhaps his greatest achievement - was his greatest failure...
0:45:31 > 0:45:36- ..which was his leadership of the - Yes campaign in the '79 referendum.
0:45:36 > 0:45:40- Someone had to carry that burden.
0:45:40 > 0:45:44- Remember the poem, - "Why did you give me this sadness?"
0:45:44 > 0:45:48- There's no bigger sadness - than leading the '79 Yes campaign.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51- But he did that with dignity...
0:45:51 > 0:45:54- ..because he thought - it was his duty to do so.
0:45:55 > 0:45:58- People who try - to portray Elystan's decisions...
0:45:58 > 0:46:04- ..especially that decision to leave - Plaid Cymru for the Labour Party...
0:46:04 > 0:46:09- ..as a decision - driven by personal ambition...
0:46:09 > 0:46:12- ..are misinterpreting the man.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15- There are two types of politician.
0:46:15 > 0:46:19- One who wants to be somebody and - one who wants to fulfil something.
0:46:19 > 0:46:24- Elystan wanted to fulfil something - and seize every opportunity.
0:46:24 > 0:46:27- Apart from a few - old-fashioned commentators...
0:46:28 > 0:46:31- ..Elystan knows more poems by memory - than most people.
0:46:31 > 0:46:34- I think he's also - a self-effacing man.
0:46:34 > 0:46:39- After his departure - from Plaid Cymru in 1964...
0:46:39 > 0:46:42- ..he put up with - a lot of criticism...
0:46:42 > 0:46:46- ..some of which was venomous.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50- I'm sure some of that venom - affected Elystan's spirit...
0:46:50 > 0:46:55- ..so much so that he adopted - that self-effacing character.
0:46:55 > 0:46:58- It wasn't a fake self-effacement.
0:46:58 > 0:47:01- He became self-effacing - to protect himself.
0:47:02 > 0:47:05- I remember asking him - to become deputy president...
0:47:05 > 0:47:10- ..and he said, "Why me? - I was an unsuccessful solicitor...
0:47:10 > 0:47:12- "..and a judge of sorts."
0:47:13 > 0:47:15- Well, yes and no.
0:47:16 > 0:47:19- He might not have - made his fortune as a barrister...
0:47:19 > 0:47:23- ..or scaled the heights - as a judge...
0:47:23 > 0:47:26- ..but there's a grandeur - belonging to Elystan.
0:47:44 > 0:47:46- S4C Subtitles by Adnod Cyf.
0:47:46 > 0:47:46- .