0:00:02 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections -
0:00:03 > 0:00:06specially chosen programmes from the BBC Archive.
0:00:06 > 0:00:07For this Collection,
0:00:07 > 0:00:08Sir Michael Parkinson
0:00:08 > 0:00:10has selected BBC interviews
0:00:10 > 0:00:12with influential figures
0:00:12 > 0:00:13of the 20th century.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15More programmes on this theme
0:00:15 > 0:00:16and other BBC Four Collections
0:00:16 > 0:00:18are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:32 > 0:00:35'Ronald Reagan talked to me at Los Angeles Airport,
0:00:35 > 0:00:36'between campaign flights.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39'I asked him what the advantages were for a candidate,
0:00:39 > 0:00:42'the favourite for Governor, of having been an actor.'
0:00:42 > 0:00:45Well, I think there are certain technical things
0:00:45 > 0:00:47with regard to the personal appearances,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50the having to appear before television cameras.
0:00:50 > 0:00:53Things that might be strange to someone else,
0:00:53 > 0:00:56these are an advantage.
0:00:56 > 0:01:00I think they only help to offset the disadvantage some people still have
0:01:00 > 0:01:03with regard to people of the theatrical profession,
0:01:03 > 0:01:04a sort of a prejudice.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Why do you think they're prejudiced?
0:01:06 > 0:01:08What is it they're prejudiced against?
0:01:08 > 0:01:10I think there's been a long-time prejudice,
0:01:10 > 0:01:13dating clear back to the days of the strolling player.
0:01:13 > 0:01:15I think it probably, in our own country,
0:01:15 > 0:01:19it's a heritage from an era when the actor didn't have a home,
0:01:19 > 0:01:22when the actor that you saw travelled
0:01:22 > 0:01:25and he wasn't a part of your community, you never got to know him.
0:01:25 > 0:01:29Now, of course, with motion pictures and television,
0:01:29 > 0:01:31actors, like other people, have settled down in one community.
0:01:31 > 0:01:35They mow the lawn and send the kids to school and live like anyone else.
0:01:35 > 0:01:38One of the virtues must be that it's easy to learn lines.
0:01:38 > 0:01:40But actors don't normally write their parts.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42Do you write your own speeches?
0:01:42 > 0:01:45Yes. No-one's ever written a speech for me, up till now.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47I, er... I've...
0:01:47 > 0:01:49As a matter of fact, up until this campaign,
0:01:49 > 0:01:51I've always done my own research,
0:01:51 > 0:01:54but that's become a job in which I've had to have help.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56How does the glamour of politics
0:01:56 > 0:01:58compare with the glamour of the screen?
0:01:58 > 0:02:01Oh, I'd never thought about it much in those terms.
0:02:01 > 0:02:05There's much of the same excitement, the contact with people.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08I think anyone in our profession likes people,
0:02:08 > 0:02:12enjoys meeting them, enjoys appearing before them.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16That's...probably part of why you chose this profession.
0:02:16 > 0:02:20How does the vanity of politicians compare with the vanity of actors?
0:02:20 > 0:02:22Well, you know, you find out something.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25This has been highly overrated with regard to actors.
0:02:25 > 0:02:28I've always found that there's much more temperament on the set
0:02:28 > 0:02:30among people of the associated branches
0:02:30 > 0:02:32than there is with the actor.
0:02:32 > 0:02:37With the actor, it's never temperament, it's just indigestion.
0:02:37 > 0:02:38And the same is true in politics.
0:02:38 > 0:02:43I've discovered that there is a great deal of temperament
0:02:43 > 0:02:44to be met with...
0:02:44 > 0:02:48oh, among the troops and with the people
0:02:48 > 0:02:51and the person who mustn't be offended, and that sort of thing.
0:02:51 > 0:02:52- Much the same? - Yes.
0:02:52 > 0:02:55People remark on the brilliance of your public relations firm.
0:02:55 > 0:02:58Do they influence your policy a great deal?
0:02:58 > 0:03:00As a matter of fact, they've never tried.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04I know this was a subject of a great deal of rumour and gossip,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06that they were the kind of people that reshaped an individual.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08As they explained it to me one day,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11they said, "If we could reshape an individual,
0:03:11 > 0:03:13"we wouldn't represent him, because he couldn't win."
0:03:13 > 0:03:14I think they're right.
0:03:14 > 0:03:17Anyone that could be that malleable
0:03:17 > 0:03:20certainly could not appeal to the people.
0:03:20 > 0:03:22But they've never suggested one thing
0:03:22 > 0:03:24that I should or shouldn't say or believe or think.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27Talking about reshaping an individual,
0:03:27 > 0:03:28your own political attitudes,
0:03:28 > 0:03:31some commentators here have...
0:03:31 > 0:03:35remarked on, and I quote, your "180-degree move in political orbit
0:03:35 > 0:03:39"from liberal Democrat to conservative Republican."
0:03:39 > 0:03:40Would you agree you've moved?
0:03:40 > 0:03:43Well, I don't think I've moved quite that far,
0:03:43 > 0:03:45as people have suggested.
0:03:45 > 0:03:48Perhaps some other people have been doing some moving.
0:03:48 > 0:03:51Now, I have on my desk at home an interview that I did in 1947.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53I was still a Democrat.
0:03:53 > 0:03:56And, in answer to one question in that interview,
0:03:56 > 0:03:59I stated as my belief that whether it came from the right,
0:03:59 > 0:04:03the left or the middle, from management, labour or government,
0:04:03 > 0:04:06anything that imposed unfairly on the individual
0:04:06 > 0:04:09was tyranny and must be opposed.
0:04:09 > 0:04:12Now, I believed that then and I believe it now.
0:04:12 > 0:04:15I think what a lot of people have failed to realise in our own country
0:04:15 > 0:04:17is that the party now in power,
0:04:17 > 0:04:20the leadership of that party, has gone far astray
0:04:20 > 0:04:24from what used to be the principles of the Democratic Party.
0:04:24 > 0:04:28And perhaps there's been as much of the party leaving me
0:04:28 > 0:04:29as there has been of me leaving the party.
0:04:29 > 0:04:33In the 1940s, you campaigned against Richard Nixon.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36You were a liberal, associated with the Screen Guild and so on.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38This is a substantial move, isn't it?
0:04:38 > 0:04:40Oh, yes, there've been some changes.
0:04:40 > 0:04:44I can remember going through a period in which I subscribed to beliefs
0:04:44 > 0:04:46that perhaps the government
0:04:46 > 0:04:48was better able to handle things like public utilities.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51I don't subscribe to that belief any more.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53For one thing, during the war,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56I had a chance as an adjutant of an air base,
0:04:56 > 0:04:58with both civilian employees and military under me,
0:04:58 > 0:05:01to watch the government function and I've come to the conclusion
0:05:01 > 0:05:03that, outside of its legitimate functions -
0:05:03 > 0:05:05its legitimate functions -
0:05:05 > 0:05:09the government doesn't do anything as well or as economically
0:05:09 > 0:05:11as the private sector of the economy.
0:05:11 > 0:05:16But...many of us came back from military service
0:05:16 > 0:05:18to our own industry
0:05:18 > 0:05:20and, in that immediate period,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23we hadn't realised the efforts at infiltration
0:05:23 > 0:05:25that had been accomplished in our industry
0:05:25 > 0:05:28in an attempt to take it over and subvert our screens
0:05:28 > 0:05:31to the dissemination of Communist propaganda.
0:05:31 > 0:05:33I know I was very reluctant to believe this,
0:05:33 > 0:05:36when some people who'd been around tried to tell me.
0:05:36 > 0:05:38I just couldn't believe it.
0:05:38 > 0:05:39We had to find out for ourselves
0:05:39 > 0:05:42and find out the hard way that it was true.
0:05:42 > 0:05:44This meant that, in that same period,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47one of the tactics of these people
0:05:47 > 0:05:52was the formation of Communist front organisations.
0:05:52 > 0:05:55I found myself invited to be on the board of one of those,
0:05:55 > 0:05:58attended one board meeting, before I realised what was going on.
0:05:58 > 0:06:02Now, I'm happy to say, that I joined a little group on that same board
0:06:02 > 0:06:06who had the same idea and we blew the organisation out of the water.
0:06:06 > 0:06:10Two or three years ago, you were supporting Senator Goldwater
0:06:10 > 0:06:12in his campaign for presidency.
0:06:12 > 0:06:13Are your views now much as they were then?
0:06:13 > 0:06:15Yes.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17Would it be fair to call you a Goldwater-ite,
0:06:17 > 0:06:19as your opponents are calling you?
0:06:19 > 0:06:22Well, no, because they're still trying to run the same campaign
0:06:22 > 0:06:23as two years ago.
0:06:23 > 0:06:27I suggested we ought to come up and engage in the 1966 campaign.
0:06:27 > 0:06:32You know, I'm a common-sense Republican, I was then.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37I not only supported Mr Goldwater and the entire ticket in '64,
0:06:37 > 0:06:38but, two years before that,
0:06:38 > 0:06:42I supported Mr Nixon running for Governor in California.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45And, two years before that,
0:06:45 > 0:06:50in 1960, I supported Richard Nixon in his campaign for the presidency.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52In other words, since I've been a Republican,
0:06:52 > 0:06:55I've supported the ticket from top to bottom.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57Do you plan to disavow the John Birch Society?
0:06:57 > 0:06:59No, I've expressed my disagreement
0:06:59 > 0:07:03with many things that they represent or stand for.
0:07:03 > 0:07:07But this is an organisation that claims it does not endorse
0:07:07 > 0:07:12politicians or candidates or parties.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15It claims its membership is roughly half and half,
0:07:15 > 0:07:19with regard to Democrat and Republican membership.
0:07:19 > 0:07:23And I just refuse to accept that they are a Republican problem,
0:07:23 > 0:07:25any more than the other side should accept that.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28I'm going to campaign for individuals
0:07:28 > 0:07:31and I assume that anyone who chooses to go along with me
0:07:31 > 0:07:34has bought my philosophy, I haven't bought his.
0:07:34 > 0:07:36If you win in November,
0:07:36 > 0:07:40do you think your victory will be taken as a victory for the Right,
0:07:40 > 0:07:43some of which is pretty wild here?
0:07:43 > 0:07:45Oh, I think that there'll be a lot of people...
0:07:45 > 0:07:48This is one thing where there is a comparison
0:07:48 > 0:07:49with getting in show business.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52You discovered you were fairly successful
0:07:52 > 0:07:53and you based your discovery
0:07:53 > 0:07:56on the number of people who were claiming they'd discovered you.
0:07:56 > 0:07:58I imagine the same thing happens in politics.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01When you win, everybody's going to claim this is a victory
0:08:01 > 0:08:03for whatever they happen to believe.
0:08:03 > 0:08:07I just hope there'll be a lot of people feeling that way.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10What would you say was the basis of your political philosophy?
0:08:10 > 0:08:13What writers or political figures have you admired and learned from?
0:08:13 > 0:08:15Oh...
0:08:15 > 0:08:18That's a hard one. I'm a voracious reader,
0:08:18 > 0:08:21a student of things of that kind.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24I've been greatly impressed by many of the men,
0:08:24 > 0:08:27the founding fathers of our country, Jefferson and so forth.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31But, I tell you, you have one that has influenced me as much as anyone.
0:08:31 > 0:08:32Who's that?
0:08:32 > 0:08:36I think that Winston Churchill was one of the great men
0:08:36 > 0:08:39of, um, of our time and our generation.
0:08:39 > 0:08:43I don't think the world will see his like for many years to come.
0:08:43 > 0:08:47Is there anyone in the current American political scene
0:08:47 > 0:08:50who you think is particularly admirable?
0:08:50 > 0:08:52Oh, a number of people.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55I think most people are pretty good.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58I've always believed that you find them good
0:08:58 > 0:08:59unless they prove otherwise.
0:08:59 > 0:09:01But, um...
0:09:02 > 0:09:05..I think that, at the moment,
0:09:05 > 0:09:08we are not particularly blessed with great leaders of that stature,
0:09:08 > 0:09:10of a Churchill type.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12I think this comes and goes with history
0:09:12 > 0:09:15and history's proven that there are waves of time
0:09:15 > 0:09:20in which you don't have those giants. And he was a giant.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23You wouldn't call Mr Johnson a great president?
0:09:23 > 0:09:24Not in my opinion.
0:09:24 > 0:09:28I am in great disagreement with much of what he stands for.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30If we can look at some of those areas of disagreement,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33one of the themes of your speeches has been the misuse of welfare.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35Who's been misusing the welfare?
0:09:36 > 0:09:40Well, I think the government and the whole approach to welfare
0:09:40 > 0:09:42has mislaid, or misdirected,
0:09:42 > 0:09:45the old philosophy of the carrot and the stick.
0:09:45 > 0:09:49You dangle a carrot in order to induce someone to do something
0:09:49 > 0:09:52and you have the stick waiting, if it's necessary, from behind.
0:09:52 > 0:09:56I think the government is trying to do everything with the carrot
0:09:56 > 0:09:57and has removed the stick.
0:09:57 > 0:10:00We found that here in California, in this last harvest season,
0:10:00 > 0:10:04when the government denied us the right to import supplemental labour,
0:10:04 > 0:10:07from Mexico, for example, to harvest our crops.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10And yet we had an unemployment in California
0:10:10 > 0:10:1340% higher than the national average.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16And you couldn't get those unemployed to take those jobs,
0:10:16 > 0:10:20and good-paying jobs, in our farm economy.
0:10:20 > 0:10:23One of the reasons was because the welfare programme
0:10:23 > 0:10:27has made it so easy to remain on welfare,
0:10:27 > 0:10:29even when there is a job available,
0:10:29 > 0:10:31that the able-bodied prefer to sit in the shade
0:10:31 > 0:10:33rather than go out in the sun and work.
0:10:33 > 0:10:38And, er...this is a sin against the people on welfare,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41because our interest in their welfare
0:10:41 > 0:10:44should be more than just a belly full of bacon and beans.
0:10:44 > 0:10:47Our interest should be in the spirit of the human being.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50And you can only put a man on the dole so long,
0:10:50 > 0:10:54until you break down the very moral fibre of that man.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56And this is what I fear we are doing.
0:10:56 > 0:10:59There was an ancient Hebrew philosopher in the 11th century -
0:10:59 > 0:11:04Maimonides - who said there were eight steps in helping the poor.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07He said the worst of these was the handout,
0:11:07 > 0:11:10and the highest was to teach him to help himself.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13Do you think Negroes misuse welfare?
0:11:13 > 0:11:15Well, it isn't a case of whether they misuse it.
0:11:15 > 0:11:18I think they probably have a higher percentage of people on it
0:11:18 > 0:11:20because they have been, er...
0:11:20 > 0:11:24They have a higher proportion of people in a lower income bracket,
0:11:24 > 0:11:26in the lower-trained skills.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30They are the first ones who have suffered as job skills went up
0:11:30 > 0:11:32and more was required.
0:11:32 > 0:11:37I think they require more attention today with regard to job training
0:11:37 > 0:11:40to fit them for these more skilled type of jobs.
0:11:40 > 0:11:45Mr Reagan, what's your solution to the gathering Negro crisis
0:11:45 > 0:11:49here in Los Angeles, in Watts, and in Oakland, in San Francisco?
0:11:49 > 0:11:51Well, there are a couple of approaches.
0:11:51 > 0:11:56We have several very fine programmes from the private sector
0:11:56 > 0:11:59that are going to work - one of them involving
0:11:59 > 0:12:02some 260 industrialists in the Los Angeles area -
0:12:02 > 0:12:06have put, since last September 1st, more than 5,000 people to work.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08One of their great problems there is economic.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12They have 25,000 unemployed in that one neighbourhood.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14And these businessmen
0:12:14 > 0:12:17have recognised that it is industry's responsibility
0:12:17 > 0:12:19to provide jobs, and they're doing this.
0:12:19 > 0:12:23There are other programmes of this kind that could be encouraged.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26There's altogether too much competition by government.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28The government almost takes the attitude
0:12:28 > 0:12:30that these people are interlopers for trying to do something on their own,
0:12:30 > 0:12:32without waiting for government to do it.
0:12:32 > 0:12:34- Private industry, you mean? - Yes.
0:12:34 > 0:12:37Government, instead, should be co-operating and encouraging them,
0:12:37 > 0:12:39helping them, indeed, offering tax incentives,
0:12:39 > 0:12:43to increase their ability to go in and help.
0:12:43 > 0:12:47I think at the same time, government has a great responsibility, however,
0:12:47 > 0:12:48with remedial education,
0:12:48 > 0:12:52with training for people who have recently immigrated here
0:12:52 > 0:12:53from some of the rural areas,
0:12:53 > 0:12:56particularly at the Deep South, who are illiterate
0:12:56 > 0:12:58and who thus are unemployable.
0:12:58 > 0:13:02All of these things must be done. At the same time,
0:13:02 > 0:13:07I think government has been absolutely too tolerant
0:13:07 > 0:13:10with some of the self-appointed leaders
0:13:10 > 0:13:13who have incited their people to riot
0:13:13 > 0:13:15and to law-breaking.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18And I think it's time that someone tells them they're no longer leaders
0:13:18 > 0:13:22and seeks leadership among the fine, responsible Negro citizens
0:13:22 > 0:13:25in that community, and they are, actually, about 98% of the community.
0:13:25 > 0:13:28In Watts, one hears a great deal - and in Oakland -
0:13:28 > 0:13:29about police brutality.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32There's a gathering feeling against white people.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34Can you do anything about this?
0:13:35 > 0:13:37Of course that feeling is there.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40But I think we can do something about it.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42But I think it's a two-way street,
0:13:42 > 0:13:45with people talking to each other instead of about each other.
0:13:45 > 0:13:48And I don't believe the police brutality stories at all.
0:13:48 > 0:13:49I think right here in Los Angeles
0:13:49 > 0:13:53is one of the finest law enforcement bodies in the world.
0:13:53 > 0:13:57And they have worked long and hard on this particular subject.
0:13:57 > 0:14:02I think that this cry has been brought up
0:14:02 > 0:14:08and has been made a kind of a belief by people who have an axe to grind,
0:14:08 > 0:14:11who are in there not to settle the problem, but to create a problem.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14Are you against the war on poverty?
0:14:14 > 0:14:17Well, at the moment, I happen to think poverty's losing.
0:14:17 > 0:14:20The war on poverty, in our country,
0:14:20 > 0:14:22has built up, probably, the greatest bureaucracy,
0:14:22 > 0:14:25out of all proportion to its accomplishments,
0:14:25 > 0:14:27and the poor are waiting for something
0:14:27 > 0:14:30to come out the end of the pipeline and nothing has come out.
0:14:30 > 0:14:33There are more high-salaried executives,
0:14:33 > 0:14:35government executives,
0:14:35 > 0:14:38in proportionate numbers, in that programme
0:14:38 > 0:14:42than in any other agency of our government, including defence.
0:14:42 > 0:14:46And by a fantastic ratio.
0:14:46 > 0:14:51And it would seem when you have 220 people being helped in one camp,
0:14:51 > 0:14:55one of the job-training camps, but you have 300 employees serving them,
0:14:55 > 0:14:58there's something wrong.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00Are you against Medicare?
0:15:00 > 0:15:02Yes, I am.
0:15:02 > 0:15:06I'm not against medical care for those who can't afford it
0:15:06 > 0:15:07and I, for a long time,
0:15:07 > 0:15:10have advocated some kind of medical insurance.
0:15:10 > 0:15:12In our country, I think you should know,
0:15:12 > 0:15:15we have roughly 150 million people
0:15:15 > 0:15:17who are, out of the 190 million,
0:15:17 > 0:15:19who today are protected by
0:15:19 > 0:15:21some kind of private medical or health insurance.
0:15:21 > 0:15:25This has been spreading at a rate of about four million a year.
0:15:25 > 0:15:26But...
0:15:26 > 0:15:29I've favoured, for those people who can't afford
0:15:29 > 0:15:31either that insurance or the doctor's bills,
0:15:31 > 0:15:33that public funds should be used
0:15:33 > 0:15:35to pay their premiums in insurance policy,
0:15:35 > 0:15:38so that they, too, had the free choice of a doctor and a hospital
0:15:38 > 0:15:41with a paid-up medical insurance programme.
0:15:41 > 0:15:44I am opposed to Medicare because it is compulsory
0:15:44 > 0:15:47in that it forces people who don't need it.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50I, for example, have medical protection by way of my union,
0:15:50 > 0:15:53the Screen Actors Guild, for me and my entire family.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55But the government comes along
0:15:55 > 0:15:58and tells me I am forced to be in this other programme also
0:15:58 > 0:16:00and I have no need for that other programme.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02You have consistently attacked the Great Society,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05President Johnson's concept of the Great Society,
0:16:05 > 0:16:07which to most people means more education, more housing,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09war on poverty, and so on.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11What's the nature of your attack?
0:16:11 > 0:16:14Well, the simple criticism is one of method.
0:16:14 > 0:16:16I have no quarrel with the goals.
0:16:16 > 0:16:21This, I think, is one of the fallacies in our modern dialogue,
0:16:21 > 0:16:23that those people who favour the welfare state
0:16:23 > 0:16:26will only meet you in argument
0:16:26 > 0:16:29on the basis that you are opposed to the humanitarian goals.
0:16:29 > 0:16:30They'll never meet you on the issue
0:16:30 > 0:16:33that you share their same humanitarian concern,
0:16:33 > 0:16:36you just feel there's a better way to accomplish it.
0:16:36 > 0:16:40I suggest that the government, for more than 30 years in America,
0:16:40 > 0:16:43has had, for example, a great opportunity
0:16:43 > 0:16:46at solving the problem of unemployment,
0:16:46 > 0:16:48one of our most nagging problems.
0:16:48 > 0:16:52They've had unlicensed sway with regard to planning
0:16:52 > 0:16:54and they've been planning and the more the plans fail,
0:16:54 > 0:16:56the more they plan.
0:16:56 > 0:17:01Now, in the meantime, private industry in America
0:17:01 > 0:17:07has been taking care of about 95 to 96% of the employables
0:17:07 > 0:17:10and providing jobs very successfully.
0:17:10 > 0:17:12And I think it's time that perhaps government,
0:17:12 > 0:17:14instead of continuing more planning,
0:17:14 > 0:17:16say that after 30 years of failure,
0:17:16 > 0:17:17maybe they ought to get out of the way
0:17:17 > 0:17:21and see if private enterprise couldn't add that last few per cent
0:17:21 > 0:17:22and handle that job too.
0:17:22 > 0:17:25You appear to be appealing to an older kind of American,
0:17:25 > 0:17:26laissez faire.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29But isn't that difficult when you have a very complicated,
0:17:29 > 0:17:31expanding, modern sort of state like your own in California?
0:17:31 > 0:17:35Well, you see, I happen to think that what you've just voiced is a fallacy.
0:17:35 > 0:17:41This theory that as society grows more complex and, as we grow bigger,
0:17:41 > 0:17:43more complicated, that we have to turn more and more
0:17:43 > 0:17:46to a central government for the answers to the problems
0:17:46 > 0:17:47doesn't hold water.
0:17:47 > 0:17:51You can't have a government that can gather together enough people,
0:17:51 > 0:17:55brilliant enough, to make all the multitudinous decisions
0:17:55 > 0:17:56that have to be made every day
0:17:56 > 0:17:58in the marketplace and in our community living.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00The only way you can make this system work,
0:18:00 > 0:18:03without having everyone marching in lockstep
0:18:03 > 0:18:07is to turn government back as nearly as possible to the local levels,
0:18:07 > 0:18:08to the local communities.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Big business has found this out in our own country.
0:18:11 > 0:18:15As our great corporations grew, and have grown to their present stature,
0:18:15 > 0:18:17they discovered they could no longer run it
0:18:17 > 0:18:20from one little central office up on top
0:18:20 > 0:18:23and they've begun to decentralise. Government must do the same thing.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26You've attacked some students at the University of California,
0:18:26 > 0:18:28Berkeley particularly,
0:18:28 > 0:18:31for their radicalism, for their sexual behaviour,
0:18:31 > 0:18:34and many students think this is an attack on free speech.
0:18:34 > 0:18:36What's your response to that?
0:18:36 > 0:18:41Well, you have me in a little hard position to explain this,
0:18:41 > 0:18:44because some of the things that I know have taken place -
0:18:44 > 0:18:46I have documentary evidence -
0:18:46 > 0:18:50are in such violation of the normal ethical and moral codes
0:18:50 > 0:18:54that I couldn't begin to discuss it here in a television programme.
0:18:54 > 0:18:58But let me say that under the sponsorship of this one committee,
0:18:58 > 0:19:01and, unfortunately, sanctioned by the university,
0:19:01 > 0:19:03these student activities took place.
0:19:03 > 0:19:06And they were just that shocking.
0:19:06 > 0:19:10They were beyond anything that your viewers could even imagine
0:19:10 > 0:19:13taking place on a college campus at student functions.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15And I think the time has come for an open enquiry
0:19:15 > 0:19:17to find how this could take place.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20Now, remember, we're talking about a very small minority.
0:19:20 > 0:19:24The bulk of the 27,000 students there are fine, responsible young people
0:19:24 > 0:19:26who are there for an education.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29But the situation has gotten out of hand.
0:19:29 > 0:19:33It's the result of a vacillating administration that has appeased
0:19:33 > 0:19:36and the fruit of appeasement is always the same.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39It finally winds up, when your back is to the wall,
0:19:39 > 0:19:41and you have to do something about it.
0:19:41 > 0:19:42At the commencement ceremony,
0:19:42 > 0:19:46many students seemed very concerned that there would be an assault
0:19:46 > 0:19:50on their liberty there, at Berkeley. Is there a danger of this?
0:19:50 > 0:19:51Well...
0:19:51 > 0:19:55I've always figured that liberty and freedom of speech
0:19:55 > 0:19:57is a two-way street.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59And, um...
0:19:59 > 0:20:01I figure that while I have no right
0:20:01 > 0:20:05to say that someone can't use, for example, vulgar language,
0:20:05 > 0:20:07I do have a right, if he's at the next table
0:20:07 > 0:20:10and saying it loud enough for my wife and children to hear,
0:20:10 > 0:20:11I have a right to ask him to lower his voice.
0:20:11 > 0:20:14Now, the Constitution prescribes that he has a right to speak.
0:20:14 > 0:20:17But the Constitution doesn't prescribe that I have to listen.
0:20:17 > 0:20:19Do you see yourself conducting
0:20:19 > 0:20:22some kind of puritan, moral crusade in California?
0:20:22 > 0:20:23Well, not a puritan moral campaign,
0:20:23 > 0:20:27but I think we have something of a moral crusade that's required here.
0:20:27 > 0:20:32We have a crime problem in California
0:20:32 > 0:20:36in which 9% of the people of our nation live in this state,
0:20:36 > 0:20:40but 17% of the crime of our nation is committed in this state.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44When 33... When the increase in arrests
0:20:44 > 0:20:48for youngsters under age 18 for narcotics crimes last year
0:20:48 > 0:20:52was up 33.5%, I think it's time to do something about it.
0:20:52 > 0:20:55Whose fault do you say this is? Is it the Democrats' fault?
0:20:55 > 0:20:56Yes, it is.
0:20:56 > 0:21:00This state administration, under a theory of pre-emption,
0:21:00 > 0:21:04has taken from our local communities and our cities
0:21:04 > 0:21:08the right to legislate and have ordinances in these various fields.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10And this has restricted the ability of our police
0:21:10 > 0:21:12to make arrests they once could make.
0:21:12 > 0:21:16And all that is needed is for this state administration
0:21:16 > 0:21:19to give back to our local cities and communities
0:21:19 > 0:21:23the right to pass ordinances to protect society.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26If we could look outside America at foreign policy, Mr Reagan,
0:21:26 > 0:21:28are you interested in foreign policy?
0:21:28 > 0:21:30Oh, I'm interested, yes.
0:21:30 > 0:21:33But you realise this isn't a part of a gubernatorial campaign.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35The Governor is not going to have any foreign policy.
0:21:35 > 0:21:38- But you have views about Vietnam? - Yes, I do.
0:21:38 > 0:21:40Do you support the President's policy?
0:21:40 > 0:21:44The only place where I differ with the President on Vietnam is that
0:21:44 > 0:21:46I don't think we're doing enough to win.
0:21:46 > 0:21:50I think once you commit young men to fight and die for their country,
0:21:50 > 0:21:51you have a moral obligation
0:21:51 > 0:21:54to turn the full resources of the nation loose behind them
0:21:54 > 0:21:56to win a victory just as quickly as possible.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59This means stepping up bombing in North Vietnam?
0:21:59 > 0:22:03Yes. I think it's pretty ridiculous to send multimillion dollar bombers
0:22:03 > 0:22:07out to bomb jungle paths, trying to catch individuals
0:22:07 > 0:22:10who are carrying packs on their backs down the line
0:22:10 > 0:22:12when you could mine or bomb the harbour of Haiphong
0:22:12 > 0:22:15and stop that material when it's coming in in shiploads.
0:22:15 > 0:22:18What if this were to lead to war with China?
0:22:18 > 0:22:21Well, I've always figured that if it's going to lead to war with China,
0:22:21 > 0:22:22er...
0:22:22 > 0:22:25When China is ready to have such a war, they'll have it,
0:22:25 > 0:22:28and we won't have to give them an excuse.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31And there was a very famous line spoken once in a conflict.
0:22:31 > 0:22:36I, perhaps, am very tactless to refer to it here, on this programme,
0:22:36 > 0:22:38but I remember there were some farmers
0:22:38 > 0:22:40at a place called Concord Bridge
0:22:40 > 0:22:43and one of them spoke a line that I think touches on this very well.
0:22:43 > 0:22:47He said, "If they mean to have a war, it might as well start here."
0:22:48 > 0:22:51You wouldn't, I take it, be in favour of treating with the Viet Cong?
0:22:51 > 0:22:53No.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58No, I think now there's only... You don't end wars, you win them.
0:22:58 > 0:23:01What if the Chinese war were to be a nuclear war?
0:23:01 > 0:23:03Would that appal you as a possibility?
0:23:03 > 0:23:06Well, yes, I think it would appal anyone.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08I don't foresee that as a possibility,
0:23:08 > 0:23:11except I think from the standpoint that we must recognise now
0:23:11 > 0:23:14that Red China is hastily making itself a nuclear power
0:23:14 > 0:23:17and I don't think they'll have the same conscience
0:23:17 > 0:23:20with regard to the bomb that the rest of the world has.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24Would you regard yourself as being passionately anti-Communist,
0:23:24 > 0:23:27in the sense that you think America ought to try and protect any society
0:23:27 > 0:23:29that looked like having a Communist government?
0:23:29 > 0:23:33No, I'm a realistic anti-Communist.
0:23:33 > 0:23:38And I think I had some experience with Communists
0:23:38 > 0:23:40in our own industry,
0:23:40 > 0:23:43when they attempted to take it over some years ago.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45It isn't just a case of going out, borrowing trouble.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48Any country that wants to have a Communist government,
0:23:48 > 0:23:50I assume should be permitted to have it.
0:23:50 > 0:23:53But I think we have to recognise this is a global conflict
0:23:53 > 0:23:58and the enemy is there and we are the target of that enemy.
0:23:58 > 0:24:02And I think we have to do what is necessary
0:24:02 > 0:24:06to oppose their aggression,
0:24:06 > 0:24:09to prove to them that aggression does not pay.
0:24:09 > 0:24:13If they succeed in aggression and it pays off in South Vietnam,
0:24:13 > 0:24:16then the next step will be some place closer,
0:24:16 > 0:24:18or perhaps even more difficult
0:24:18 > 0:24:20and they will try to make aggression pay again.
0:24:20 > 0:24:24And some place along the line, well, you...
0:24:24 > 0:24:27The same gentleman from your nation that I referred to,
0:24:27 > 0:24:30Winston Churchill, gave the greatest sermon on appeasement
0:24:30 > 0:24:33back at a time when there were Englishmen
0:24:33 > 0:24:35who considered appeasing Hitler.
0:24:35 > 0:24:37And Winston Churchill said,
0:24:37 > 0:24:41"If you will not fight for the right when you can, without bloodshed,
0:24:41 > 0:24:42"if you will not fight
0:24:42 > 0:24:46"when your victory will be sure and not too costly,
0:24:46 > 0:24:48"you may come to the moment when you will have to fight
0:24:48 > 0:24:50"with all the odds against you
0:24:50 > 0:24:52"and only a precarious chance of survival."
0:24:52 > 0:24:55And then he added this line...
0:24:55 > 0:24:56"There may be a worse case.
0:24:56 > 0:25:00"You may have to fight when there's no chance of victory,
0:25:00 > 0:25:03"because it's better to perish than to live as slaves."
0:25:03 > 0:25:06Mr Reagan, one of the criticisms by your opponents of your position
0:25:06 > 0:25:09is that you have no experience and yet you're running
0:25:09 > 0:25:10for one of the most important political offices
0:25:10 > 0:25:13in the United States. What's your answer to that?
0:25:13 > 0:25:16Well, I think that experience comes in many ways.
0:25:16 > 0:25:21It doesn't necessarily follow that it must come from just holding office.
0:25:21 > 0:25:25There were two teachers applying for jobs here in our educational system.
0:25:25 > 0:25:28One had 25 years' experience and the other only had one.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30And they hired the one with one.
0:25:30 > 0:25:34And the other one protested and claimed this 25 years' experience
0:25:34 > 0:25:36and the superintendent said,
0:25:36 > 0:25:40"No, you've had one year's experience, repeated 25 times."
0:25:40 > 0:25:45Now, I have had administrative and executive experience
0:25:45 > 0:25:49and quite a considerable amount, for more than 20 years,
0:25:49 > 0:25:52six times president and the rest of the time on the board
0:25:52 > 0:25:57or an officer of a union, a national union, the Screen Actors Guild.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59We negotiated the basic contracts,
0:25:59 > 0:26:01we dealt with the problems that affected
0:26:01 > 0:26:04the livelihood of our 15,000 members.
0:26:04 > 0:26:08And there were other jobs that went along with that in the industry.
0:26:08 > 0:26:12So, I'm not basing my running for Governor
0:26:12 > 0:26:14on anything that I did on the screen, in that line of work.
0:26:14 > 0:26:18I'm basing it on this other part of my life
0:26:18 > 0:26:20that did deal with administrative problems.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22Do you think you'll win?
0:26:22 > 0:26:23Yes.
0:26:23 > 0:26:25Would you like to be President of the United States?
0:26:25 > 0:26:26Oh, for heaven's sakes!
0:26:26 > 0:26:27That's a question that,
0:26:27 > 0:26:30the minute you run for any office in the United States,
0:26:30 > 0:26:32you must first stand up and say,
0:26:32 > 0:26:34"I don't want to be President of the United States!"
0:26:34 > 0:26:36I just want to be Governor of California.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38What if people wanted you to be President?
0:26:38 > 0:26:40Would the prospect appal you?
0:26:40 > 0:26:42Yes, I think it would appal anyone.
0:26:42 > 0:26:46I think it is... I think it is an awesome responsibility.