0:00:02 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections -
0:00:03 > 0:00:06specially chosen programmes from the BBC Archive.
0:00:06 > 0:00:07For this Collection,
0:00:07 > 0:00:08Sir Michael Parkinson
0:00:08 > 0:00:10has selected BBC interviews
0:00:10 > 0:00:12with influential figures
0:00:12 > 0:00:13of the 20th century.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15More programmes on this theme
0:00:15 > 0:00:16and other BBC Four Collections
0:00:16 > 0:00:18are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:20 > 0:00:22INDIAN MUSIC PLAYS
0:00:35 > 0:00:37INTERVIEWER: Jane Fonda,
0:00:37 > 0:00:40you've been taking your public by surprise recently.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43Instead of being pictured on the beaches of St Tropez,
0:00:43 > 0:00:48you've been pictured invading army camps and getting yourself arrested.
0:00:48 > 0:00:50And even on the screen,
0:00:50 > 0:00:54instead of the Jane Fonda of Cat Ballou and Barbarella,
0:00:54 > 0:00:58it's been the ravaged lady who appears in Don't Shoot Horses.
0:00:58 > 0:01:02Now, from where I am, it looks like a different Jane Fonda.
0:01:02 > 0:01:04From where you are, how does it look?
0:01:05 > 0:01:08Oh, I think you're right, I think I am different.
0:01:08 > 0:01:09Er...
0:01:09 > 0:01:12changes don't happen overnight. It's, er...
0:01:12 > 0:01:17I've...over a period of years,
0:01:17 > 0:01:20particularly the last two years, been, um...
0:01:22 > 0:01:25..been...turning my eyes outward
0:01:25 > 0:01:29and becoming more aware of what is happening around me. Er...
0:01:29 > 0:01:31Partly because of myself
0:01:31 > 0:01:34and partly because of what is happening around me.
0:01:34 > 0:01:37I grew up in the '50s, I was a student in the '50s,
0:01:37 > 0:01:42when it was, er...pretty easy for a white, middle-class girl,
0:01:42 > 0:01:46privileged girl, as I was, and am, to think that...
0:01:46 > 0:01:51that things were all right, that America was working,
0:01:51 > 0:01:56that we lived in a viable, democratic system.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59So anyway, what I'm saying is that I became...
0:02:01 > 0:02:05..particularly over the last year and a half, I've become aware of...of...
0:02:07 > 0:02:09..of people who are less fortunate than I,
0:02:09 > 0:02:13of what the system is doing to us, here in America.
0:02:13 > 0:02:15All over the world, but particularly in America.
0:02:15 > 0:02:17Sitting there in France, in St Tropez,
0:02:17 > 0:02:19sunning yourself on the beach,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22why were you so strongly aware of what was happening in America?
0:02:22 > 0:02:25And you're living in a kind of escapist world there, presumably.
0:02:25 > 0:02:27Not really, no.
0:02:27 > 0:02:31It was, um...well, just reading and talking to people,
0:02:31 > 0:02:34French people who had just come back from America,
0:02:34 > 0:02:37my friends who came over to see me.
0:02:37 > 0:02:40It was also in 1968, there was the, um...
0:02:40 > 0:02:42"les evenements" in France,
0:02:42 > 0:02:46the revolution, if you can call it that, of '68, which...
0:02:48 > 0:02:51..which many of my friends were involved in
0:02:51 > 0:02:55and which made me think about what the situation is here, in fact, um...
0:02:55 > 0:02:56Did you come back to actually think
0:02:56 > 0:02:59that you could help to change things, when you came back?
0:02:59 > 0:03:01I came back to find out, you know, er...
0:03:01 > 0:03:03I was ignorant, um...
0:03:03 > 0:03:05I still am.
0:03:05 > 0:03:09But I felt that I had to find out and I came back to...
0:03:09 > 0:03:11to...to...to look at things at the source...
0:03:11 > 0:03:14- How did you look at things? - ..and spent three months...
0:03:14 > 0:03:16Well, I travelled across the country.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19I spent about three months going from one end of the country to the other.
0:03:19 > 0:03:21When I first came back...
0:03:22 > 0:03:25..well, I guess it was because I'd been in India
0:03:25 > 0:03:26and I had gone over there
0:03:26 > 0:03:29on a sort of escapist, metaphysical kind of trip. I wanted to be alone.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32I usually find that when I go through changes in my life,
0:03:32 > 0:03:38they are, er...precipitated...by...
0:03:38 > 0:03:41they are...hastened when I put myself
0:03:41 > 0:03:44in a position of complete solitude and isolation.
0:03:44 > 0:03:46That doesn't mean without people,
0:03:46 > 0:03:47but it means in a new kind of context,
0:03:47 > 0:03:49where I'm truly confronted by myself.
0:03:49 > 0:03:53And, er...I learn a lot of things that way.
0:03:53 > 0:03:54So I went to India
0:03:54 > 0:03:56because it was about as remote from anything I'd ever known
0:03:56 > 0:03:59and I found a lot of people -
0:03:59 > 0:04:03American kids and French kids - who were living there...
0:04:03 > 0:04:06with the starving...
0:04:08 > 0:04:11..Indian people and saying,
0:04:11 > 0:04:16"They're not unhappy, they have their religion and their drugs and, er...
0:04:16 > 0:04:18"you mustn't judge them
0:04:18 > 0:04:22"with the middle-class bias that you bring with you.
0:04:22 > 0:04:25"You must understand that that, for them, is something else."
0:04:25 > 0:04:27And I found that appalling.
0:04:27 > 0:04:30When you see a child carrying a dead baby in its arms, begging,
0:04:30 > 0:04:33when you see people, as you do in Calcutta,
0:04:33 > 0:04:35er...dying in the streets all around
0:04:35 > 0:04:37you, you can't say, "Well, this is just..."
0:04:37 > 0:04:41You know, they are not... aware of this or unhappy
0:04:41 > 0:04:45because they have their... their religion and their culture.
0:04:45 > 0:04:46It's not true.
0:04:48 > 0:04:53And I realised that that sort of escapism is appalling and selfish
0:04:53 > 0:04:55and...and I thought...
0:04:56 > 0:04:59..that I had been on the road to that sort of thing
0:04:59 > 0:05:04and I came back here. Having India on my mind, I arrived in America
0:05:04 > 0:05:07at the time that the Indians were invading Alcatraz.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10- It was the first militant Indian... - Let's make this clear,
0:05:10 > 0:05:11- the American Indians. - The American Indians.
0:05:11 > 0:05:14It was the first militant Indian move that I'd heard about
0:05:14 > 0:05:15and I was very interested to, er...
0:05:15 > 0:05:18to find out...why and what it was all about,
0:05:18 > 0:05:20and so I started meeting with Indians,
0:05:20 > 0:05:23the militant Indians, and, er...
0:05:26 > 0:05:28..they directed me to various places in the country,
0:05:28 > 0:05:31sort of crisis areas, where I could meet and talk with people.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35At the same time, I was terribly curious to know why,
0:05:35 > 0:05:38of all the militant black groups, the Black Panthers were...
0:05:38 > 0:05:41were getting ripped off by the government,
0:05:41 > 0:05:44rather than some of the other cultural nationalist groups who...
0:05:44 > 0:05:48who spout truly racist rhetoric and violent rhetoric.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50These other groups, of course,
0:05:50 > 0:05:52not being touched really by the government.
0:05:52 > 0:05:56And so I met with some Panthers and I was extremely impressed
0:05:56 > 0:06:00and began to understand... what was happening.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02And...
0:06:03 > 0:06:06..as I was...when I was planning my trip across the country,
0:06:06 > 0:06:07I met a man called Fred Gardner,
0:06:07 > 0:06:10who...who was the, er...
0:06:10 > 0:06:15the originator of the GI Coffeehouse Movement.
0:06:15 > 0:06:16These are coffeehouses
0:06:16 > 0:06:18around military installations in the country,
0:06:18 > 0:06:21where GIs can go, usually supported by civilians,
0:06:21 > 0:06:25they are run by civilians and GIs, where GIs can go and...
0:06:25 > 0:06:28and talk about the war and how they feel about it,
0:06:28 > 0:06:31talk about the conditions within the military, er...
0:06:33 > 0:06:36..and become politicised that way.
0:06:36 > 0:06:38And I was telling Fred about my trip and he said,
0:06:38 > 0:06:40"Why don't you go to the coffeehouses?"
0:06:40 > 0:06:42I at that time didn't know what a coffeehouse was.
0:06:42 > 0:06:44I didn't even know what the GI Movement was.
0:06:44 > 0:06:46I'd been working with deserters in France,
0:06:46 > 0:06:50but as far as I was concerned, a GI Movement meant desertion.
0:06:51 > 0:06:53So I said, "Well, that sounds interesting,
0:06:53 > 0:06:55"but I have to find out, you know,
0:06:55 > 0:06:57"what role I could play and what I could do to be of help."
0:06:57 > 0:07:02Tell me this. Do you think that this new interest of yours in civil rights
0:07:02 > 0:07:05is going to damage your career as an actress?
0:07:05 > 0:07:09No, I don't think so. This isn't the McCarthy period.
0:07:09 > 0:07:10It may damage my life.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13In the McCarthy period, people just lost their jobs.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15Today, people are, you know....
0:07:15 > 0:07:18are being put in jail and killed and shot
0:07:18 > 0:07:20and all kinds of things that are much more serious.
0:07:20 > 0:07:24I don't think that my career is going to be hurt.
0:07:24 > 0:07:29We may all end up in jail one day the way things are going.
0:07:29 > 0:07:35Has the FBI shown any interest in your activities, personally?
0:07:35 > 0:07:37Yes, of course... Yeah, the FBI has been to see
0:07:37 > 0:07:41my husband and my brother and my father, and, um...
0:07:42 > 0:07:45You know...that's to be expected.
0:07:45 > 0:07:49You say this, er...these activities of yours,
0:07:49 > 0:07:53you don't think that they endanger your professional career,
0:07:53 > 0:07:56and yet, let's put it like this. If it came to a decision between...
0:07:57 > 0:08:01..your career and your civil rights work, which would come first?
0:08:03 > 0:08:04I know that's a very hard question
0:08:04 > 0:08:06because it would depend on the circumstances,
0:08:06 > 0:08:07but let's put it like this.
0:08:07 > 0:08:09If there was a question of doing something you felt you should do,
0:08:09 > 0:08:12which might mean going to jail, and going to jail might mean
0:08:12 > 0:08:15you wouldn't do the picture you're assigned to do,
0:08:15 > 0:08:16would you go to jail?
0:08:16 > 0:08:20I'm not doing anything for which I can, er...
0:08:20 > 0:08:22actually go to jail for.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27Today, in America, anyone who is doing anything, um...
0:08:27 > 0:08:30involving root changes in this country
0:08:30 > 0:08:32- can go to jail. - Right.
0:08:32 > 0:08:35And...and so...I am...
0:08:35 > 0:08:37I cannot stop doing what I'm doing.
0:08:37 > 0:08:43I am...I am involved in things because I... because I know that...
0:08:43 > 0:08:47without that involvement on the part of everyone, er...
0:08:47 > 0:08:49there will be no world any more.
0:08:49 > 0:08:52- Nowhere, and so... - Let me put it like this.
0:08:52 > 0:08:55..so, um, to be safe today in America,
0:08:55 > 0:08:57it means you have to be Bob Hope,
0:08:57 > 0:08:59if you're an actor,
0:08:59 > 0:09:02or that you have to do... or nothing at all.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06And, um...I don't think that that's a viable way of living.
0:09:06 > 0:09:09I don't think that anyone can live that way...
0:09:09 > 0:09:11today, when things are so crucial.
0:09:11 > 0:09:14Um, so it may mean that I go to jail.
0:09:14 > 0:09:17I will certainly be in good company if that happens.
0:09:17 > 0:09:22The first time I got arrested - and I would really wish this on everyone,
0:09:22 > 0:09:25there is nothing like an unjust arrest to radicalise someone -
0:09:25 > 0:09:29I was in Washington, in the State of Washington, er...
0:09:29 > 0:09:33and I went on to a base, an army base, Fort Lewis,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36it's an open base. Unlike in England, anyone can go on.
0:09:36 > 0:09:41And I went on with a group of, um... of GIs and civilians
0:09:41 > 0:09:43that run a coffeehouse up there called the Shelter Half
0:09:43 > 0:09:48to talk with soldiers, to invite them to the coffeehouse that night,
0:09:48 > 0:09:52er...for a talk and some coffee, um...
0:09:52 > 0:09:54They knew I was coming
0:09:54 > 0:09:56and consequently it was very hard to find any soldiers,
0:09:56 > 0:09:59they'd all been called for riot control duty
0:09:59 > 0:10:02or put on restrictions, barrack restrictions.
0:10:02 > 0:10:03So it was really hard to find anyone,
0:10:03 > 0:10:06but we did find a few guys leaning out of their windows
0:10:06 > 0:10:09and walking down the street and, you know, I would just talk to them
0:10:09 > 0:10:12and ask them if they'd been there, to 'Nam and, er...
0:10:12 > 0:10:15and what did they think
0:10:15 > 0:10:17and would they like to come to the coffeehouse?
0:10:17 > 0:10:22I was there about 20 minutes when a whole squad of MPs
0:10:22 > 0:10:26and lieutenants and colonels came down and arrested us all
0:10:26 > 0:10:27and held us for about four hours.
0:10:27 > 0:10:31I was never able to find out why. I kept saying, "What have we done?"
0:10:31 > 0:10:33No-one seemed to be able to answer me.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37Er...we were treated, er... not very well.
0:10:37 > 0:10:40We were not allowed our rights to, for example...
0:10:40 > 0:10:42I knew I had a right to make a phone call to my lawyer,
0:10:42 > 0:10:46and when I asked the colonel in charge if I could use the phone,
0:10:46 > 0:10:49he said, with a lot of obscenity, "Get your...back into that room,
0:10:49 > 0:10:52"you're just a civilian here, you have no rights."
0:10:52 > 0:10:54So I lay down on the floor of his office,
0:10:54 > 0:10:56my first act of civil disobedience,
0:10:56 > 0:10:59and I felt very good, I didn't realise I had such a...
0:10:59 > 0:11:01flair for that. I really like it.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05When I know I'm right, I really... It gives one a lot of...
0:11:05 > 0:11:08courage. Not that I risked all that much.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10Not like the soldiers that were with me. Um...
0:11:10 > 0:11:13I was then given an expulsion order.
0:11:13 > 0:11:15This is what happens to civilians
0:11:15 > 0:11:17when they go on an army base and are arrested.
0:11:17 > 0:11:18It's just a piece of paper -
0:11:18 > 0:11:20they give out so many that they're Mimeographed -
0:11:20 > 0:11:22which says, "You have broken Army regulations
0:11:22 > 0:11:24"and you are forbidden to come back to this base,
0:11:24 > 0:11:27"and several other bases, and if one goes back,
0:11:27 > 0:11:29"you are subject to 500 fine and six months in jail."
0:11:29 > 0:11:33And I said to him, "What did I do? What Army regulations did I break?"
0:11:33 > 0:11:34And he said, "I don't know."
0:11:34 > 0:11:35As a result of that,
0:11:35 > 0:11:38I am suing him and Melvin Laird, the Secretary of Defense,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41and Stanley Resor, the Secretary of the Army.
0:11:41 > 0:11:45And, er...that was the first time that I became aware
0:11:45 > 0:11:49of the incredible discrimination, er...
0:11:49 > 0:11:54and...against people who are taking any other kind of, er...
0:11:55 > 0:11:58..position than the one that the military wants you to take.
0:11:58 > 0:12:01And the kind of isolation that the GIs are subject to.
0:12:01 > 0:12:04Nobody can go on or get anywhere near them...
0:12:04 > 0:12:08except the people that are going to be spouting military rhetoric.
0:12:08 > 0:12:11About six weeks before Bob Hope had been on,
0:12:11 > 0:12:13and had been given the red carpet treatment,
0:12:13 > 0:12:16er...the base was leafleted by soldiers
0:12:16 > 0:12:19with leaflets saying, "4,000 jokes, 4,000 dead."
0:12:19 > 0:12:24And that night, at the coffeehouse, it was jammed
0:12:24 > 0:12:25with guys who came to me and said,
0:12:25 > 0:12:27"I didn't even know about the Movement.
0:12:27 > 0:12:29"I didn't even know about the coffeehouse.
0:12:29 > 0:12:30"But when we heard that you'd been arrested,
0:12:30 > 0:12:32"when Bob Hope had been given that kind of treatment,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35"we thought we'd better come and find out what it's all about."
0:12:35 > 0:12:40These guys stayed, I saw them change over the course of two or three days,
0:12:40 > 0:12:45er...it usually would start off with them listening to their brothers
0:12:45 > 0:12:49talking about, er, why they weren't getting minimum wage,
0:12:49 > 0:12:52what saluting means,
0:12:52 > 0:12:56the kind of dehumanising, er...
0:12:57 > 0:12:59..tasks that they're asked...to do.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02You know, just ridiculous things just to make them into robots.
0:13:02 > 0:13:06And going from that to the war,
0:13:06 > 0:13:09to a better understanding of why the war exists
0:13:09 > 0:13:11and what it's all about.
0:13:12 > 0:13:13And watching these guys -
0:13:13 > 0:13:16these are often guys from working-class families -
0:13:16 > 0:13:22become free by learning, by becoming political
0:13:22 > 0:13:26and going out different human beings, that is very exciting to see.
0:13:26 > 0:13:27Still within the military,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29but free because they were free in their own heads
0:13:29 > 0:13:31and they were fighting the good fight.
0:13:31 > 0:13:36What you're doing is to attack certain inegalities,
0:13:36 > 0:13:38certain abuses in society.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41But shouldn't you really be attacking the root cause,
0:13:41 > 0:13:44that is, attacking society itself, the system?
0:13:45 > 0:13:48Well, if changing the system from the ground up is revolutionary,
0:13:48 > 0:13:50er, then I'm revolutionary.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54Although I'm not in fact revolutionary because...
0:13:54 > 0:13:56I think a revolutionary
0:13:56 > 0:14:00is someone who lives the revolution 24 hours a day.
0:14:00 > 0:14:03Er...I am still a movie actress.
0:14:03 > 0:14:07I, er...I still lead a certain kind of life.
0:14:07 > 0:14:10I am a radical, but I am not a revolutionary,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13although I am for the revolution.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15How it's going to happen in America,
0:14:15 > 0:14:17who is going to be at the forefront of it,
0:14:17 > 0:14:19I don't know, I really don't know.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22Um...but there are many, many things happening.
0:14:23 > 0:14:27I mean, the Women's Liberation Movement is extremely important.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30I'm glad you mentioned that because I was going to ask you about it.
0:14:30 > 0:14:32Um...do you agree with the...
0:14:32 > 0:14:33Are you in sympathy with
0:14:33 > 0:14:35the objectives of the Women's Liberation Movement?
0:14:35 > 0:14:39Er...yes, oh, absolutely.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43But then I see them as a... You know, there are many different...
0:14:43 > 0:14:46As in any movement, there are many factions, there are many...
0:14:46 > 0:14:49There are separatists in the Women's Liberation Movement.
0:14:49 > 0:14:53There are those who are primarily concerned with working
0:14:53 > 0:14:57within the system to get equal pay and jobs and things like that.
0:14:57 > 0:14:59I see it as something else, um...
0:15:02 > 0:15:06For example, I would not want to say to a man, in America -
0:15:06 > 0:15:07or most countries in the world,
0:15:07 > 0:15:10but we're just talking about America today -
0:15:10 > 0:15:13"I want to be your equal." Because men are not free today.
0:15:13 > 0:15:17I don't want to be the equal of a man standing in an unemployment line.
0:15:17 > 0:15:18I don't want to be the equal of a man
0:15:18 > 0:15:21who gets sent to Vietnam when he doesn't want to.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24As far as I'm concerned, women's liberation is in fact...
0:15:24 > 0:15:28liberation for everyone, and it can only come about
0:15:28 > 0:15:32through an entire change of our society, from the ground up.
0:15:32 > 0:15:33Economic, social, er...
0:15:33 > 0:15:37family structure, the way people relate to each other.
0:15:37 > 0:15:40Er...what it's all about, as far as I'm concerned,
0:15:40 > 0:15:42is humanising everyone,
0:15:42 > 0:15:45making it possible by creating a new kind of system,
0:15:45 > 0:15:47making it possible for people
0:15:47 > 0:15:50to relate as human beings - men and women.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53One of the, er...objectives of the Women's Liberation Movement
0:15:53 > 0:15:59is to attack the position of women as what they call "sex objects".
0:15:59 > 0:16:02Now, that's exactly what you have been
0:16:02 > 0:16:05in many of your films - Barbarella, for example.
0:16:05 > 0:16:09Does your new attitude mean that you will no longer appear
0:16:09 > 0:16:11in motion pictures of that kind?
0:16:11 > 0:16:15Yeah. Yeah, I will not be making films like that any more.
0:16:15 > 0:16:18Um...I had never...
0:16:18 > 0:16:20I wasn't really aware of...
0:16:23 > 0:16:27..of male chauvinism and of myself as being, er...
0:16:28 > 0:16:31Tell me this - aren't you married to a male chauvinist?
0:16:32 > 0:16:35- I would have thought Vadim... - I think that...
0:16:35 > 0:16:39all men are male chauvinists and I...
0:16:40 > 0:16:42Poor dears! Not because they mean to be,
0:16:42 > 0:16:46but because that's the way we've all been educated.
0:16:46 > 0:16:50Er, and women have always allowed themselves to be, um...
0:16:50 > 0:16:52put into a subordinate position.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55That's just... I mean, for centuries,
0:16:55 > 0:16:59that's the way...we have been educated and raised.
0:16:59 > 0:17:01- My husband... - But surely Vadim is
0:17:01 > 0:17:03- the male chauvinist par excellence? - Oh, no, no, no. Oh, no.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05Not really. He, er...
0:17:07 > 0:17:10It would seem that way, but in fact it's not.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13I would say that he is no more guilty of male chauvinism
0:17:13 > 0:17:15than most men that I know.
0:17:15 > 0:17:17My God, he made Bardot into a sex symbol.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19He made you into a sex symbol.
0:17:19 > 0:17:23Yeah, well, I'm talking about the way one relates on a personal level
0:17:23 > 0:17:27on a day-to-day...on a day-to-day...life.
0:17:27 > 0:17:28He is, er...
0:17:30 > 0:17:32..much more...
0:17:33 > 0:17:36..understanding of women and... and, er...
0:17:38 > 0:17:41..sensitive to certain kinds of problems that women have...
0:17:43 > 0:17:47..despite the other, commercial, public image that he has, you know,
0:17:47 > 0:17:51that he has maintained, and God knows he has maintained
0:17:51 > 0:17:54a great deal of male chauvinism through his films. Er...
0:17:54 > 0:17:58I wouldn't say that he is any more guilty of it than anyone else.
0:17:58 > 0:18:00You once said that marriage is obsolete.
0:18:00 > 0:18:01You said that a long time ago.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04- A long time ago. - Yes. Now, er...
0:18:04 > 0:18:07- do you still believe marriage... - Absolutely. I firmly believe it.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10I didn't understand at the time. This was 12 years ago when I said it,
0:18:10 > 0:18:13and I've felt it for many years before I said that publicly,
0:18:13 > 0:18:15that the political ramifications of it...
0:18:15 > 0:18:17But of course, I think it's, er...
0:18:17 > 0:18:18it's, um...
0:18:18 > 0:18:22I am sure that 100 years from now, people will look back
0:18:22 > 0:18:25over these centuries of...of, er...
0:18:25 > 0:18:29marriage and wonder what we were doing.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33Er...I think it is...I think it is...
0:18:33 > 0:18:36natural to couple, for people to be drawn to someone
0:18:36 > 0:18:42who have similar tastes and desires and beliefs and things like that.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46Er...and I think there is nothing more important and more beautiful
0:18:46 > 0:18:48than loving someone.
0:18:48 > 0:18:49And I think...
0:18:49 > 0:18:55as long as a relationship between two people exists
0:18:55 > 0:18:58in a changing, growing way, where people are growing together
0:18:58 > 0:19:02and learning from each other, it is fantastic.
0:19:02 > 0:19:04That usually doesn't last for ever.
0:19:04 > 0:19:05And...
0:19:06 > 0:19:10..the trouble with marriage is that it makes people,
0:19:10 > 0:19:14out of fear of...of not having it work,
0:19:14 > 0:19:19a fear of being accused of being a failure, or of being alone,
0:19:19 > 0:19:22deny change in themselves, and I think change is what it's all about.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25I think that's the most important thing. Er...
0:19:26 > 0:19:30If a relationship comes to a point
0:19:30 > 0:19:33where people no longer have anything to truly give and to share,
0:19:33 > 0:19:35then they must part.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37It doesn't have to be, um...
0:19:37 > 0:19:40angry or...or negative,
0:19:40 > 0:19:42but just simply must realise
0:19:42 > 0:19:45that they now must go in different directions to grow and change.
0:19:45 > 0:19:48And I think that marriage makes this extremely difficult.
0:19:48 > 0:19:52You know, why sign a piece of paper for reasons other than
0:19:52 > 0:19:53economic and social
0:19:53 > 0:19:56and society saying this is what one must do, and moral.
0:19:56 > 0:19:59There are no reasons why one must sign a piece of paper
0:19:59 > 0:20:01and put oneself in a position of
0:20:01 > 0:20:03feeling these kind of pressures and guilt.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05- Why did you marry? - I don't know.
0:20:05 > 0:20:07Yes, I do. Er...
0:20:09 > 0:20:12..because my husband has children by another marriage
0:20:12 > 0:20:15and they were living with us in California -
0:20:15 > 0:20:17one of them was living with us in California -
0:20:17 > 0:20:19I was driving her to school during the day
0:20:19 > 0:20:23and people were talking, her teachers were looking at her and me strangely,
0:20:23 > 0:20:25and it was making it difficult for her.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27And, er, in hotels and things like that.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30So we decided to get married to make it easier.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33Just for those social reasons. Um...
0:20:33 > 0:20:36I, in a way, betrayed myself because I always said
0:20:36 > 0:20:38that I would never get married
0:20:38 > 0:20:41until someone could explain to me why people get married.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44No-one, of course has, and nobody ever will be able to.
0:20:44 > 0:20:46How far has your attitude to marriage
0:20:46 > 0:20:48been conditioned by your own childhood?
0:20:48 > 0:20:51I mean, your father was married many times, wasn't he?
0:20:51 > 0:20:53I'm sure a great deal.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56Er...one is always conditioned by one's upbringing.
0:20:56 > 0:20:59But I don't think that, um...
0:20:59 > 0:21:03I have not... I have come out pretty well, considering.
0:21:03 > 0:21:07And my father has always been a remarkably good father.
0:21:07 > 0:21:09And I don't think that...
0:21:09 > 0:21:11I mean, I know that I would have been much worse off
0:21:11 > 0:21:15had he tried to continue a marriage that wasn't working for him
0:21:15 > 0:21:19than doing what he did, which was... which was, er...
0:21:19 > 0:21:22It would have been better had he never been married.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24And rather than put ourselves into a position
0:21:24 > 0:21:27of continuing something that doesn't work,
0:21:27 > 0:21:29we should try to change the things
0:21:29 > 0:21:33that make people feel they have to get married, which I think is wrong.
0:21:33 > 0:21:36Do you think your views are having any influence on your father?
0:21:36 > 0:21:39I've always thought that probably Henry Fonda
0:21:39 > 0:21:41was a conservative kind of man.
0:21:41 > 0:21:45D'you know, one of the problems about being the member of a family
0:21:45 > 0:21:48who is famous is that one is not only responsible for one's self,
0:21:48 > 0:21:51but is responsible for all the members of the family.
0:21:51 > 0:21:54It is just terrible. Everywhere I go, if I go to a rally some place,
0:21:54 > 0:21:57all these kids come after me afterwards and say,
0:21:57 > 0:22:00"Where's your brother, why isn't he here? And what's your father doing?"
0:22:00 > 0:22:04It's hard enough to answer for myself. Er...
0:22:05 > 0:22:08My father and I differ considerably.
0:22:08 > 0:22:11I respect him, I respect his views,
0:22:11 > 0:22:14I don't agree with him at all, er...
0:22:14 > 0:22:16And that's, you know...
0:22:16 > 0:22:19It's not unusual, it happens all the time.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21As a family, you're quite famous for your disagreements.
0:22:21 > 0:22:25Do you disagree still very strongly about most things?
0:22:26 > 0:22:28About some very important things, er...
0:22:31 > 0:22:34..we aren't really that, er...
0:22:34 > 0:22:37in any more disagreement than, you know,
0:22:37 > 0:22:38than most families I know.
0:22:38 > 0:22:41It's just that because, at a certain time of our growing up,
0:22:41 > 0:22:44my brother and... In my growing up we had access to the press
0:22:44 > 0:22:46and we verbalised certain things,
0:22:46 > 0:22:49which was unfortunate and we don't do that any more
0:22:49 > 0:22:52cos it's unnecessary, it's our business, um...
0:22:52 > 0:22:53But, um...
0:22:54 > 0:22:59..you know, I wish that I had more chance to sit down with...my father
0:22:59 > 0:23:02and to talk to him about what I'm doing and why.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05The chance doesn't come up enough.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07But, you know, that doesn't matter.
0:23:07 > 0:23:11One doesn't do things to please one's parents.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13Have you always been a rebellious person?
0:23:13 > 0:23:14Always. Always.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16I was brought up that way.
0:23:16 > 0:23:19- Um... - Were you a rebellious child?
0:23:19 > 0:23:20Sure!
0:23:20 > 0:23:22Sure, and I'm really grateful.
0:23:22 > 0:23:25- What kind of rebel...? - My father taught us
0:23:25 > 0:23:29to question everything. My father taught us to not look down on anyone,
0:23:29 > 0:23:32to, er...to respect everyone,
0:23:32 > 0:23:35to always go towards the forces
0:23:35 > 0:23:40that would enable everyone to have what they needed.
0:23:40 > 0:23:41Um...
0:23:43 > 0:23:47My father still believes - he hasn't changed, but he still believes -
0:23:47 > 0:23:51that the system here in America, the democratic system,
0:23:51 > 0:23:53is a viable, functioning one.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55Er...I don't.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59And I don't not just because, um... off the top of my head.
0:23:59 > 0:24:03I don't because I've been across the country and I have seen,
0:24:03 > 0:24:05time and time and time again,
0:24:05 > 0:24:07that it just isn't for the majority of people.
0:24:07 > 0:24:10I often wonder, um, how far people
0:24:10 > 0:24:14who get involved in radical movements,
0:24:14 > 0:24:16as you've done, really think through
0:24:16 > 0:24:19to what kind of society they want to see at the end of it.
0:24:19 > 0:24:22Is there any society in existence anywhere in the world
0:24:22 > 0:24:25which approximates to the kind of America you'd like to see?
0:24:27 > 0:24:29I've never been in one, myself.
0:24:29 > 0:24:34Er...I've had friends that have been in certain countries,
0:24:34 > 0:24:37er, China and Cuba, for example,
0:24:37 > 0:24:41who have told me things that sound... very encouraging.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Now, I don't think that their solutions can be America's solutions
0:24:45 > 0:24:48because I think our... for obvious reasons.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50We're going to have to find our own.
0:24:50 > 0:24:56But there was a delegation that just came back from, um...from a trip,
0:24:56 > 0:25:00they went to North Korea and Hanoi and to Peking and came back here
0:25:00 > 0:25:04and I spoke to them, and they told me, er...
0:25:04 > 0:25:08that in China, they kept looking for faults,
0:25:08 > 0:25:11they kept looking for where it was breaking down, you know,
0:25:11 > 0:25:13because they couldn't believe
0:25:13 > 0:25:16that it was working the way it seemed to be working.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19Everyone has something to eat, everyone has something to wear.
0:25:19 > 0:25:21Now, the clothes, that's very interesting -
0:25:21 > 0:25:22everyone wears the same thing.
0:25:22 > 0:25:26That sounds appalling, I guess, to most people in the Western world.
0:25:26 > 0:25:28Er, I don't think so. I think the idea
0:25:28 > 0:25:33that Mao and the peasants wear exactly the same clothes.
0:25:33 > 0:25:36The clothes are not made for anyone to get rich off of,
0:25:36 > 0:25:37they last 50 years.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40They're just very simple clothes that'll last for ever.
0:25:40 > 0:25:43- Do you care about what you wear? - No, I just wear as, er...
0:25:43 > 0:25:47functional and...attractive clothes as I can,
0:25:47 > 0:25:49but I don't think too much about it.
0:25:49 > 0:25:52Everyone has something to wear, everyone has a place to live...
0:25:52 > 0:25:54everyone is...
0:25:54 > 0:25:58They said there was the most extraordinary feeling of involvement.
0:25:58 > 0:26:03Everyone involved with... making it work,
0:26:03 > 0:26:06working together in their communities and their collectives
0:26:06 > 0:26:11and a total lack of coercion. This is what they said.
0:26:11 > 0:26:14Look, I'm really interested that you mentioned those particular societies
0:26:14 > 0:26:17because whatever they may have achieved in the social field,
0:26:17 > 0:26:20and it's obviously a considerable amount,
0:26:20 > 0:26:24er...in none of those societies have they been able to allow
0:26:24 > 0:26:28free artistic expression in the sense that we know it in the West.
0:26:28 > 0:26:30I think...I think, yeah.
0:26:30 > 0:26:34Now, do you not feel that, as an actress...
0:26:35 > 0:26:39..you would be extremely limited in that kind of society?
0:26:41 > 0:26:47Perhaps, if I wanted to do things that...that, er...
0:26:47 > 0:26:51You see, well...when you're carrying on a revolution -
0:26:51 > 0:26:53and their revolution is an ongoing thing,
0:26:53 > 0:26:56I mean, it's not... they haven't reached an end.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59They haven't gotten there yet.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02I don't think anywhere in the world.
0:27:02 > 0:27:06So, during the process of...of...
0:27:06 > 0:27:10change and educating people, er...
0:27:12 > 0:27:18..removing people from the state of being in which they want to exploit
0:27:18 > 0:27:22and become rich and get ahead over someone else and, er...
0:27:22 > 0:27:23and things like that,
0:27:23 > 0:27:26which is something deeply engrained in all of us.
0:27:26 > 0:27:31During that change-over, very stringent rules have to be laid down.
0:27:31 > 0:27:32Er...
0:27:33 > 0:27:36..until such a time that the level of the economy is such
0:27:36 > 0:27:38that everyone is comfortable,
0:27:38 > 0:27:42that everyone has as much as they could possibly want. Up until...
0:27:42 > 0:27:44How long does this go on, for God's sake?
0:27:44 > 0:27:46In Soviet Russia, there is more oppression...
0:27:46 > 0:27:50When you consider how far Russia came, er...
0:27:50 > 0:27:51in a very short period of time,
0:27:51 > 0:27:54I mean, you know, it was really remarkable.
0:27:54 > 0:27:56But I mean, well, Russia is something else again.
0:27:56 > 0:27:59Er...you know...
0:27:59 > 0:28:01One begins to wonder if maybe Russia
0:28:01 > 0:28:05should not have had much stricter rules, that it did become, I mean,
0:28:05 > 0:28:08it seems to sort of be taking on a lot of, er...
0:28:08 > 0:28:10capitalist...things, and one wonders
0:28:10 > 0:28:13what that's going to do to their revolution.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15You talk about oppression in the United States.
0:28:15 > 0:28:17Yeah.
0:28:17 > 0:28:18There's considerable oppression
0:28:18 > 0:28:21in all the societies you've been talking about.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23You would certainly not have been able to go round army camps...
0:28:23 > 0:28:27In Cuba... In Cuba, for example, there is...
0:28:27 > 0:28:31there is no, er... there are no jails.
0:28:31 > 0:28:35There are jails for people who are trying to...overthrow the government,
0:28:35 > 0:28:38who are reactionary forces within Cuba.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40That's what you're trying to do here.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44What... Oh, well, it depends on what you're for.
0:28:44 > 0:28:48I mean, I am...I am... trying to get away from
0:28:48 > 0:28:50the need ever to have police.
0:28:50 > 0:28:51And they are doing that in Cuba.
0:28:51 > 0:28:55Are you not, do you think, a rather naive kind of idealist?
0:28:55 > 0:28:56Er...
0:28:57 > 0:29:00..perhaps. I mean, that's probably the worst criticism
0:29:00 > 0:29:03that one could say, is that it's naive utopian socialism.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05Er...
0:29:05 > 0:29:10but I believe, to the bottom of my heart, with everything in my being,
0:29:10 > 0:29:13that it is possible and that it will exist
0:29:13 > 0:29:15if we don't destroy ourselves before.
0:29:15 > 0:29:18INDIAN MUSIC PLAYS