0:00:10 > 0:00:13Good afternoon, and a very warm welcome to Points of View
0:00:13 > 0:00:16and a rather special programme for you today
0:00:16 > 0:00:21as I interview, on your behalf, the chief policeman of the BBC -
0:00:21 > 0:00:24the chairman of the BBC Trust, Lord Patten.
0:00:24 > 0:00:27Now, for you and for me, the BBC is all about programmes
0:00:27 > 0:00:32but, in a sense, Lord Patten sits above all that.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Lord Patten has the final say on how licence fee money is spent
0:00:36 > 0:00:40and so, in a way, has ultimate power within the BBC.
0:00:40 > 0:00:43He and the Trust police quality and value for money,
0:00:43 > 0:00:47and name and shame departments and programmes that fail.
0:00:47 > 0:00:48Up for a challenge,
0:00:48 > 0:00:52he was Governor of Hong Kong during its handover back to China
0:00:52 > 0:00:56and helped establish a new police force in Northern Ireland.
0:00:56 > 0:00:58Since starting at the BBC in May last year,
0:00:58 > 0:01:01Lord Patten has made his presence felt.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03He rejected plans for cuts to local radio,
0:01:03 > 0:01:08protected the World Service and now plans to cut management pay.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11Lord Patten believes that the BBC can enrich people's lives
0:01:11 > 0:01:16by introducing them to good books, great paintings or beautiful music.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19He recently appointed the new BBC Director-General, George Entwistle,
0:01:19 > 0:01:24telling him the BBC should be ten to 20% better than it currently is.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27- Lord Patten, hello.- Hello, Jeremy. - Let me ask you,
0:01:27 > 0:01:28first of all,
0:01:28 > 0:01:32these questions are on behalf of our viewers, about the shape of the BBC
0:01:32 > 0:01:36because a lot of people, now, take stuff down off YouTube,
0:01:36 > 0:01:38they take it on demand,
0:01:38 > 0:01:42and here we are using channels to give them material
0:01:42 > 0:01:43at our convenience
0:01:43 > 0:01:46and it seems like that's just a broken model.
0:01:46 > 0:01:47Well, not most people.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50Most people, like 91%,
0:01:50 > 0:01:56still watch television in the...traditional way...
0:01:56 > 0:01:59linear watching - you watch a channel.
0:01:59 > 0:02:03and one of the reasons why the BBC has been so successful
0:02:03 > 0:02:08is that we're very good at organising, or curating, channels,
0:02:08 > 0:02:11to use the BBC speak.
0:02:12 > 0:02:17Um, but there are more who are choosing when they watch a programme
0:02:17 > 0:02:21and that's why iPlayer has been so fantastically successful.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23But, yes, iPlayer, obviously,
0:02:23 > 0:02:25is a way of people getting what they want on demand
0:02:25 > 0:02:28but that, that suggests that the channels ARE gone,
0:02:28 > 0:02:30that there is no need for them.
0:02:30 > 0:02:33It's undoubtedly the case that technology
0:02:33 > 0:02:39is changing the way a lot of people view but not everybody
0:02:39 > 0:02:44and what, to use an awful expression, at the end of the day,
0:02:44 > 0:02:47what the BBC has to make sure it's doing
0:02:47 > 0:02:52is making terrific content, however people watch it.
0:02:52 > 0:02:56To a licence fee payer, surely, content is what they are buying.
0:02:56 > 0:02:58They want the programmes, we all understand that.
0:02:58 > 0:03:01They don't want to be paying for a pensions department,
0:03:01 > 0:03:05a property department, a legal department, HR department and so on.
0:03:05 > 0:03:06Don't they have to go?
0:03:06 > 0:03:12We're on a programme of 11% efficiency savings...
0:03:12 > 0:03:15over this...charter period,
0:03:15 > 0:03:17until 2016-17.
0:03:19 > 0:03:24We're cutting overheads, support services, by 25% -
0:03:24 > 0:03:26the sort of things you were talking about -
0:03:26 > 0:03:30so as to find more money to put into programmes
0:03:30 > 0:03:34because it's, that's the sharp end.
0:03:34 > 0:03:35But in order to have a sharp end
0:03:35 > 0:03:38you've got to have something behind it from time to time.
0:03:38 > 0:03:43If we got rid of the people who are managing the books
0:03:43 > 0:03:46we'd soon find ourselves in big trouble with licence fee payers.
0:03:46 > 0:03:49OK, let's pause there, if we can, and just move to content,
0:03:49 > 0:03:51and what you've been talking about this week.
0:03:51 > 0:03:56And, firstly, tissues out because Gareth Malone's The Choir is back.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:03:59 > 0:04:03This song is just, hits the nail on the head.
0:04:03 > 0:04:07I think that people, when they hear of us,
0:04:07 > 0:04:09will be inspired by the choir
0:04:09 > 0:04:13and think, "Hey, these guys are sending a message.
0:04:13 > 0:04:16"Sending a message out to every individual," you know?
0:04:16 > 0:04:19And I think people will sit up and notice,
0:04:19 > 0:04:22and who knows, relationships, to some extent, could improve
0:04:22 > 0:04:25on the basis of us delivering this message.
0:04:25 > 0:04:28Well done, Sam, that was very good. You can go back and join the tenors.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47So, Gareth Malone working his musical magic again
0:04:47 > 0:04:51but it seems that Andrew Marr is making history
0:04:51 > 0:04:53for all the wrong reasons.
0:04:53 > 0:04:57People learned the essentials of survival -
0:04:57 > 0:05:00language, clothing and cooked food -
0:05:00 > 0:05:06and, above all, working together to stay alive.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29Too many distractions there, maybe, for Andrew Marr.
0:05:29 > 0:05:32And back to the BBC and its own distractions
0:05:32 > 0:05:33because the property portfolio
0:05:33 > 0:05:35is something that comes up again and again.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37The two billion in Salford
0:05:37 > 0:05:39and a billion pounds for the new Broadcasting House.
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Just the amount of money that is being spent on buildings
0:05:42 > 0:05:44that could have been spent on programmes,
0:05:44 > 0:05:47does that not...is that not cause for an apology at some point?
0:05:47 > 0:05:51Well, Salford was two billion pounds but over 20 years
0:05:51 > 0:05:55and what we're doing in Salford
0:05:55 > 0:06:01is making programmes in a much more productive way.
0:06:01 > 0:06:09Salford's involved...2,300 people working in...in the city.
0:06:11 > 0:06:14About a third were already working in Manchester,
0:06:14 > 0:06:16about a third have gone from London,
0:06:16 > 0:06:18about a third have been recruited locally.
0:06:19 > 0:06:22I think it's been an astonishing success -
0:06:22 > 0:06:27sport, Radio 5 Live, children's and one or two other things as well.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30But the cost of bricks and mortar
0:06:30 > 0:06:33is just what you would call dead weight, isn't it?
0:06:33 > 0:06:35You can spend all that money, you don't get a single programme!
0:06:35 > 0:06:40No, but you can't go on making programmes in...
0:06:43 > 0:06:46..clapped-out facilities.
0:06:46 > 0:06:48This building, for example?
0:06:48 > 0:06:54Yeah, if you think about the move from here to Broadcasting House
0:06:54 > 0:06:57and the move out of Bush House,
0:06:57 > 0:06:59we're putting all our journalists together,
0:06:59 > 0:07:02there will be huge improvements, I think,
0:07:02 > 0:07:07in the quality of output as well as savings made as well.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10The BBC, frankly, was in too many bits of property
0:07:10 > 0:07:17and reducing the numbers and going into property which is,
0:07:17 > 0:07:22you can make more productive use of - as the management speak puts it,
0:07:22 > 0:07:26"Property whose assets you can sweat more."
0:07:26 > 0:07:30The BBC has unarguably had a very, very good summer of sport,
0:07:30 > 0:07:35with the Olympics and Wimbledon as well, and it's led to the question,
0:07:35 > 0:07:39why not take the hint and buy more sport, even though it's expensive?
0:07:39 > 0:07:42We will be spending about two billion on sport
0:07:42 > 0:07:46over the rest of the licence fee period.
0:07:46 > 0:07:51That's the same as we're spending from the licence fee on journalism.
0:07:51 > 0:07:54It's about ten per cent of our overall spend.
0:07:54 > 0:07:58Now, that still enables us to do a lot of sport.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02It enables us to do Wimbledon, Match of the Day,
0:08:02 > 0:08:05it enables us to do Six Nations
0:08:05 > 0:08:09and it's enabled us, of course, to do the Olympics.
0:08:09 > 0:08:12It enables us to do sport,
0:08:12 > 0:08:17which clearly binds the community, the country together.
0:08:17 > 0:08:22I think it's very important that we should continue to do a lot of sport
0:08:22 > 0:08:25but we just haven't got as much money to spend as some others.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29Look, when, when BT and Sky
0:08:29 > 0:08:34are bidding up to six and a half million, or more,
0:08:34 > 0:08:38to televise a football match, we simply don't have that much money.
0:08:38 > 0:08:41Well, on our message board, Germinator says,
0:08:41 > 0:08:45"Instead of BBC Three and BBC Four, sport."
0:08:45 > 0:08:49Well, interestingly, if you scrap BBC Three and BBC Four
0:08:49 > 0:08:52you'd have certainly a bit more money for sport
0:08:52 > 0:08:57but you certainly wouldn't have enough money to compete with Sky
0:08:57 > 0:09:01in paying money for premiership football games.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06One of the things, one of the lessons we've learned from, I think,
0:09:06 > 0:09:11from the Olympics coverage is that sport is hugely important to reach
0:09:11 > 0:09:15and a statistic which I offer you,
0:09:15 > 0:09:18which may seem incredible but is true,
0:09:18 > 0:09:25is the BBC televises about two per cent of all televised sport
0:09:25 > 0:09:28but we get 40% of the audience.
0:09:28 > 0:09:29Another viewer, Joan Beveridge,
0:09:29 > 0:09:31has said you don't do enough women's sport.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33What we should be doing,
0:09:33 > 0:09:35and I think will be doing more after the Olympics,
0:09:35 > 0:09:39is more minority sports, as they are so-called,
0:09:39 > 0:09:41because, sooner or later, they become majority sports,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44which I think is what's been happening with cycling.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47And we have to do more women's sport
0:09:47 > 0:09:49and I very much hope
0:09:49 > 0:09:52that we'll be able to demonstrate our determination to do that
0:09:52 > 0:09:56in the coming... in the coming weeks and months.
0:09:56 > 0:09:58Well, sport makes a great TV pastime,
0:09:58 > 0:10:00let's talk about another thing that does, which is cooking.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03We all enjoy our cooking shows and there's one TV chef
0:10:03 > 0:10:06who is so famous she's only known by her first name.
0:10:06 > 0:10:10In fact, now, even that's been changed to Nigellissima!
0:10:10 > 0:10:11My children are bigger than me now
0:10:11 > 0:10:14but luckily I've always got lots of other people's little ones
0:10:14 > 0:10:16surrounding me so I'm happy.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19It happens that my meatzza
0:10:19 > 0:10:21and also my chocolate hazelnut cheesecake
0:10:21 > 0:10:23are just perfect for this sort of thing.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44There we are, Nigella, a very recognisable BBC brand
0:10:44 > 0:10:47and, Lord Patten, if we look at the branding of the BBC
0:10:47 > 0:10:51and what it's most famous for - its dramas and documentaries,
0:10:51 > 0:10:55and news, and sport, and so on - does lead us to the question
0:10:55 > 0:10:57why the BBC doesn't just drop the broadcasting,
0:10:57 > 0:11:02drop the channel end, and just become a production house.
0:11:02 > 0:11:04I don't think you can just do that
0:11:04 > 0:11:07without having any supporting services at all.
0:11:07 > 0:11:12For example, the BBC has always been, in a sense,
0:11:12 > 0:11:18as much an engineering company as a creative production company
0:11:18 > 0:11:22and it's because it's been so good at the technology.
0:11:22 > 0:11:26For example, we've had such a successful Olympics.
0:11:26 > 0:11:30The head of our technology said to me,
0:11:30 > 0:11:33when I became chairman of the BBC Trust,
0:11:33 > 0:11:37"What the coronation did for television back in the 1950s
0:11:37 > 0:11:39"I think the Olympics will do for digital."
0:11:39 > 0:11:41So, here we are, Points of View,
0:11:41 > 0:11:44and, obviously, we handle viewer complaints
0:11:44 > 0:11:47and I just wonder what you can tell the viewers about your role
0:11:47 > 0:11:49because traditionally the chairman of the governors
0:11:49 > 0:11:53used to go into bat for the BBC. So, whose side are you on?
0:11:53 > 0:11:56I think it's a very good thing about the Trust,
0:11:56 > 0:12:00that we are able to criticise the BBC when we think it's got things wrong
0:12:00 > 0:12:06but I think that if the BBC is doing well,
0:12:06 > 0:12:12and I think overwhelmingly it is, it does deserve to have a cheerleader
0:12:12 > 0:12:17but it also needs a cheerleader who can wrap it on the knuckles
0:12:17 > 0:12:20when it isn't is doing as good a job as it should.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22Lord Patten, thank you very much joining us.
0:12:22 > 0:12:23Good to be with you.
0:12:23 > 0:12:27So, drama is on of those core areas of BBC output
0:12:27 > 0:12:32and one of the newest dramas on the BBC is called The Paradise.
0:12:32 > 0:12:33I want to bring 1,000
0:12:33 > 0:12:37undreamed of temptations into the Paradise.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40I promise you, sir, there will be no end to their appetite.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44However, it will take more than one spectacular event
0:12:44 > 0:12:46to convince my partners at the bank.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48If I may, sir,
0:12:48 > 0:12:50we were never going to convince them.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52The point is to convince you!
0:13:02 > 0:13:04Now to another drama, Good Cop.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06And if you've been enjoying that
0:13:06 > 0:13:09you may have wondered why one of the episodes was dropped a few days ago.
0:13:09 > 0:13:12And the answer was it had uncomfortable parallels
0:13:12 > 0:13:16with the shooting of two police officers in Greater Manchester.
0:13:32 > 0:13:37So, what is the latest decision on whether Good Cop will ever be shown?
0:13:47 > 0:13:50And that brings our BBC Trust special to an end.
0:13:50 > 0:13:52Next week we've got the start of Merlin
0:13:52 > 0:13:56and if you want to react to that or anything else on the BBC
0:13:56 > 0:13:57do write to us.
0:13:57 > 0:13:58Here is the address...
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0:14:08 > 0:14:10Jump on the message board...
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0:14:15 > 0:14:16and it is...
0:14:19 > 0:14:20Goodbye.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd