:00:00. > :00:12.The International Criminal Court in The Hague is
:00:13. > :00:18.-- has courted controversy since it was established in 2002, because so
:00:19. > :00:22.far all its cases have been African. The ICC's chief prosecutor
:00:23. > :00:28.Fatou Bensouda is a lawyer from Gambia. She talks to me, Zeinab
:00:29. > :00:29.Badawi, as part of the BBC's 100 Women series about justice, gender,
:00:30. > :00:51.and Africa. These are all the pictures of all
:00:52. > :00:56.the judges, are they? No, these are the ones who have served in the
:00:57. > :01:01.past. OK. And then you have the current judges. The current ones.
:01:02. > :01:05.Yes. Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda, welcome to the BBC's 100 Women
:01:06. > :01:10.series. Wonderful to have you with us. Thank you very much, thank you
:01:11. > :01:14.for having me. So when you are growing up in the capital of Gambia,
:01:15. > :01:18.the small country in West Africa, a couple of million people and so on,
:01:19. > :01:23.did you think you would end up being the prosecutor of the International
:01:24. > :01:26.Criminal Court? Well, definitely I was not thinking about ending up
:01:27. > :01:33.here. But what was very clear for me, all the time, was that I wanted
:01:34. > :01:36.to contribute to the field of justice, or even social welfare. I
:01:37. > :01:41.wanted to serve. I wanted something to do with women, how can I help,
:01:42. > :01:47.how can I contribute? So I think this is an opportune moment, really
:01:48. > :01:51.a privilege, to be in this position, and to be able to serve as I thought
:01:52. > :01:54.about it, when I was growing up. Some people talk about formative
:01:55. > :02:00.experiences that helped shape what they did in later life. You had a
:02:01. > :02:06.relative who was experiencing very extreme domestic abuse and violence
:02:07. > :02:12.from her husband. And tell us the story, you went along with her to
:02:13. > :02:17.report a case to the police. Indeed. You were very unhappy. Indeed, I was
:02:18. > :02:23.very unhappy. And if you look at it in context, it is really... May be
:02:24. > :02:28.hers was one that really inspired me to say I want to do something. But
:02:29. > :02:33.it is something growing up that you saw around. Unfortunately, women
:02:34. > :02:40.would not be given the justice that they deserved. And in these domestic
:02:41. > :02:45.abuse cases, they would always... One would always say that 1's
:02:46. > :02:50.husband has a right to bid up the woman. This was the general thought
:02:51. > :02:54.that people had. But I had always thought that this is wrong. This
:02:55. > :03:00.should not happen. And I remember, even as a young child, even as a
:03:01. > :03:07.young girl, I remember very much getting involved in it. And also, as
:03:08. > :03:11.you have said just now, when it was to go to a police station to report
:03:12. > :03:17.to the matter, I would go along. Your father was a civil servant. My
:03:18. > :03:21.father was a civil servant, yes. Obviously most of Gambia is Muslim,
:03:22. > :03:31.and he had to make wise, so you had more than a dozen siblings. So it is
:03:32. > :03:34.quite a crowd you grow up with. Backdrop of the family, it was a big
:03:35. > :03:37.family. But he died when you were young. So you were raised in that
:03:38. > :03:39.community. I was still in school when he died. I had just started
:03:40. > :03:43.high school, actually, when he died. But as I said, I grew up with
:03:44. > :03:47.my siblings, and fortunately it was a happy family to grow up in. We
:03:48. > :03:51.supported each other. We loved each other. And this was important, I
:03:52. > :03:57.believe it divided the support that you need, growing up in that
:03:58. > :04:04.society. So then you decided to study law, you went to Nigeria, in
:04:05. > :04:07.Lagos, that was where you became a lawyer, and then in 1987 he went
:04:08. > :04:13.back to Gambia and joined the office of the Public prosecutor, as head of
:04:14. > :04:17.prosecutions. Indeed, I joined the attorney general 's office, and
:04:18. > :04:22.because then I had not yet got my bar, which I had to go back to Lagos
:04:23. > :04:28.to do, I could serve as a public prosecutor, which means you take the
:04:29. > :04:33.minor offences, traffic offences, but you start going to court anyway.
:04:34. > :04:36.Later on, when you became part of the prosecution team in
:04:37. > :04:42.international criminal tribunal on Rwanda, after the unspeakable
:04:43. > :04:47.genocide there in the mid-19 90s, you became very aware of how sexual
:04:48. > :04:51.violence perpetrated against women, particularly in conflict, and that,
:04:52. > :04:56.you have kind of May a strategic goal for yourself ever since.
:04:57. > :05:01.Indeed, even before going to Rwanda, once I was in Gambia and serving,
:05:02. > :05:08.first as a deputy Director of Public Prosecutions, and also as Solicitor
:05:09. > :05:14.General later, I have been doing a lot of prosecutions in this area as
:05:15. > :05:21.well. And there are a few cases that I have done that really were very,
:05:22. > :05:28.very... Affected me a lot. I have done the rape of a schoolgirl by the
:05:29. > :05:32.teacher in the school toilet, and this was... Really, from the very
:05:33. > :05:38.beginning I just felt that this should not be happening, we need to
:05:39. > :05:41.really do everything that we can to ensure that those who perpetrate
:05:42. > :05:47.these kinds of crimes are held to account. Did you get the school
:05:48. > :05:52.teacher? I did, I did, I did. I got him. I prosecutor that case, and
:05:53. > :05:57.ended up... He was sentenced. That must have given you a lot of
:05:58. > :06:00.satisfaction. It did, it did give me a lot of satisfaction. And going to
:06:01. > :06:07.Rwanda, also, you find that really the rate, massiveness of the crimes
:06:08. > :06:15.happened in Rwanda was also something else that really pushed
:06:16. > :06:19.me. And I just realised that at the international level, during
:06:20. > :06:23.conflicts, it is even more profound. But you must be so frustrated,
:06:24. > :06:28.prosecutor Fatou Bensouda, when you see today the kind of violence,
:06:29. > :06:30.sexual violence, that is being perpetrated against women across
:06:31. > :06:37.countries. And I am thinking in particular of the young Yazidi women
:06:38. > :06:41.and girls who are being sold literally into sexual slavery by the
:06:42. > :06:44.extremists in Iraq, what is going on in Syria, and you can't do anything
:06:45. > :06:50.about that. But you know what, this is why we should not capitulate.
:06:51. > :06:54.This is why we should continue to ensure that we are drawing a line
:06:55. > :06:59.under these kind of crimes. Others prefer to put a veil on it. You are
:07:00. > :07:02.not doing anything about it. We are not able to do anything about it,
:07:03. > :07:08.because we do not have territorial jurisdiction. But I just wanted to
:07:09. > :07:11.say that even before the office was approached or people started talking
:07:12. > :07:20.about it, I had requested that my office looks into the crimes that
:07:21. > :07:23.are being committed by ISIS, especially the National and State
:07:24. > :07:27.parties. Because we may not have territorial jurisdiction in this
:07:28. > :07:30.case, but we could potentially have personal jurisdiction of the foreign
:07:31. > :07:35.fighters, nationals who are nationals of these parties and are
:07:36. > :07:39.committing these crimes within the context of the conflict in Syria.
:07:40. > :07:51.Oath when you were deputy prosecutor here, from 2004 until 2012, when you
:07:52. > :07:58.became to protect, and up until last year,, a key ally for you in trying
:07:59. > :08:00.to reach these goals with the UN Human Rights Commissioner, the South
:08:01. > :08:05.African lawyer, the first nonwhite woman to become a High Court judge
:08:06. > :08:15.in South Africa. You have nominated her as your most admired woman.
:08:16. > :08:19.Why? I have always looked at Navi, a dear friend and colleague, I have
:08:20. > :08:23.looked at are always as a principled woman with integrity. A woman who
:08:24. > :08:28.has done a lot in her own native country of South Africa. She worked
:08:29. > :08:34.very hard for Justice during the apartheid days. She became the first
:08:35. > :08:40.nonwhite woman to be nominated by President Nelson Mandela as a High
:08:41. > :08:42.Court judge. She has served at the ICT, the International Criminal
:08:43. > :08:54.Court in or four Rwanda, she has also served as a judge at the ICC.
:08:55. > :08:59.Someone who knows you very well, Bensouda, who is related to you by
:09:00. > :09:04.marriage, has said you have tried different careers in professional
:09:05. > :09:16.life, but Fatou is most comfortable with being a prosecutor. Why is
:09:17. > :09:21.that? That is correct. Zeinab, I have always wanted to serve in the
:09:22. > :09:24.field of justice, bringing accountability for perpetrators,
:09:25. > :09:29.people who commit these crimes. And ensuring that the victims have
:09:30. > :09:34.justice. It is something that is, as long as I
:09:35. > :09:39.something that is in me. But you know
:09:40. > :09:45.refer to you as the chief prosecutor of the ICC,
:09:46. > :09:50.them that this is a court, and if it is worthy of the name
:09:51. > :10:04.should also be achieved defender, or a defender of the court,
:10:05. > :10:10.for defence, which is also a part of the court. Obviously it is... Maybe
:10:11. > :10:21.it is not getting as high profile as the prosecutor of the court, but we
:10:22. > :10:22.do have... But it is a fair criticism, you have Luis Moreno
:10:23. > :10:26.Ocampo, your predecessor, the first chief prosecutor, as it were, and
:10:27. > :10:30.was offered in the headlines, and you yourself, and people look at the
:10:31. > :10:35.court, you have the prosecution and defence and there is parity. But
:10:36. > :10:39.there isn't in this case. You know, this is a prosecuting office.
:10:40. > :10:43.office of the prosecutor, as part the court, as an organ of the court,
:10:44. > :10:48.the court was set up to bring to account those who commit these
:10:49. > :10:52.egregious crimes, to ensure that the perpetrators of these crimes faced
:10:53. > :10:55.justice. So they are kind of guilty before they have even been tried.
:10:56. > :11:01.Not really, because if you look at the process itself, they are
:11:02. > :11:05.defended. Every person, if you look at the statute, it is very, very
:11:06. > :11:10.prominent there that people who are charged with
:11:11. > :11:13.are entitled to be defended fully. This is very much respected before
:11:14. > :11:30.the African. In 12 years, two
:11:31. > :11:47.prosecutions, successful, people behind bars, both from Africa, the
:11:48. > :11:51.Congo and elsewhere. What this criticism is unfortunately unfair to
:11:52. > :11:55.the court. These cases have started in Africa. It is not the ICC that is
:11:56. > :12:00.going out to just to take cases in Africa. In fact, it is the fact that
:12:01. > :12:06.African states themselves are calling on the ICC, are inviting the
:12:07. > :12:12.ICC to exercise jurisdiction. This is why mainly we are in Africa. All
:12:13. > :12:16.right, but that is one way that you can deal with cases, when countries
:12:17. > :12:20.that have signed up to the ICC, and that is 34 of the 54 African
:12:21. > :12:25.countries, do that. But there is also another route for you, I mean,
:12:26. > :12:28.a country that has not signed up can also voluntarily declare itself
:12:29. > :12:34.subject to your jurisdiction. But you can go down the Security Council
:12:35. > :12:40.route. Indeed. For countries that are not signatories. You have done
:12:41. > :12:44.this twice, for the President of Sudan over the Darfur conflicts, and
:12:45. > :12:47.also the son of the late Colonel Gaddafi in Libya. Why can't you go
:12:48. > :12:53.down that route for other situations? It will be important to
:12:54. > :12:58.understand the Security Council referral. ICC, my office, does not
:12:59. > :13:03.play any role in getting a referral from the UN Security Council. It is
:13:04. > :13:07.the UN Security Council acting under chapter seven of the UN Charter, and
:13:08. > :13:10.also by virtue of the Rome Statute that can actually
:13:11. > :13:14.also by virtue of the Rome Statute that can the ICC to intervene, they
:13:15. > :13:17.request the office of the prosecutor to exercise jurisdiction in certain
:13:18. > :13:22.situations. And they have only done that, again, with Africa. Indeed,
:13:23. > :13:30.they had done at Libya, as you know, and Saddam. OK, Chatham house
:13:31. > :13:33.tank report in 2013 said these two situations support the suggestion
:13:34. > :13:40.there is an anti- African Bias. What do you say to that? That point? I do
:13:41. > :13:45.not think it is also the point. As I said, we do not solicit for the
:13:46. > :13:50.Security Council to refer cases to the ICC. First. Second, also, for we
:13:51. > :13:55.intervene, even though it is the UN Security Council referral, it has to
:13:56. > :14:00.be clear that it is not automatic that the ICC would intervene in that
:14:01. > :14:04.situation. We have to ensure first that our jurisdictional requirements
:14:05. > :14:10.are met. That the temporal jurisdiction is satisfied, that the
:14:11. > :14:16.crimes that the ICC has been set up to investigate and prosecute have
:14:17. > :14:19.been committed, before we... And also to see whether there are any
:14:20. > :14:27.ongoing national proceedings, before we...
:14:28. > :14:34.I understand that you cannot say to the Security Council you want to
:14:35. > :14:41.investigate the president over Darfur. It is not so much the cases
:14:42. > :14:47.that you have pursued that are the subject of criticism, it is what you
:14:48. > :14:54.have not pursued at all. They are all African. Indeed. We need to
:14:55. > :15:01.remind ourselves that we work based on our jurisdiction and limitations.
:15:02. > :15:06.In certain instances we are able to intervene and exercise jurisdiction.
:15:07. > :15:16.We have territorial jurisdiction, for instance, where the state itself
:15:17. > :15:20.has ratified the Rome Statute. But in certain other cases where we get
:15:21. > :15:26.accused, why aren't you intervening in Syria, that is because it is not
:15:27. > :15:30.part of the ICC. Another aspect that is worrying of the activities of the
:15:31. > :15:35.court is that three of the five permanent members of the Security
:15:36. > :15:43.Council have not signed or ratified the ICC. That, again, makes people
:15:44. > :15:50.wonder if there is a double standard at play. I know 133 countries have
:15:51. > :15:56.signed a. But these three powerful countries that haven't undermined
:15:57. > :16:01.the credibility to say you are international. -- up. That is the
:16:02. > :16:09.case. We look at the UN Security Council as a body... As a body that
:16:10. > :16:13.has been settled, responsible, ultimately for security in the whole
:16:14. > :16:20.world and all member states of the UN, the United Nations, having the
:16:21. > :16:30.power, or having the mandate, to be able to create a court, for
:16:31. > :16:37.instance, like they did for the ICTR... Having that same power to be
:16:38. > :16:41.able to, instead of creating, according to further situations of
:16:42. > :16:45.the ICC, a permanent court that is already existing and can exercise
:16:46. > :16:50.jurisdiction immediately... In Africa, you have got quite a
:16:51. > :16:56.widespread feeling among people and governments that they should perhaps
:16:57. > :17:05.leave the ICC en masse, as the president of Uganda has suggested
:17:06. > :17:10.and AU has said, this is an instant of race hunting... Are you concerned
:17:11. > :17:13.that behind the scenes, Africans or many key countries, could withdraw?
:17:14. > :17:20.It would be very unfortunate if that happens. Africa has already shown,
:17:21. > :17:24.for the creation of the ICC, they have already shown leadership in
:17:25. > :17:30.international criminal justice by joining the court in such a huge
:17:31. > :17:38.number, 34 out of 54 African states. But also by referring cases
:17:39. > :17:44.to the ICC. I will not say that if the court would start work... It
:17:45. > :17:52.would not have started so early if it had not been for the referral
:17:53. > :17:57.that came from African states... They... You feel they should be
:17:58. > :18:03.commended for their actions. Praised for their actions. Look at South
:18:04. > :18:09.Africa when the Basheer recently attended a summit there. --
:18:10. > :18:14.president Bashar al-Assad. As I said, it is unfortunate that
:18:15. > :18:22.happen. In fact, this is the legal obligation that Africa has by being
:18:23. > :18:31.part of the ICC. So, other from your... Apart from the bringing of
:18:32. > :18:34.people to trial, because you have an importance of impunity, how does
:18:35. > :18:40.that serve peace and conflict resolution in a country? The
:18:41. > :18:47.president of the Ivory Coast is on trial at the. And the vice president
:18:48. > :18:53.of Kenya on trial at the ICC. -- ICC. But there is concern that
:18:54. > :18:59.either of them are found guilty terrible violence would ensue. We
:19:00. > :19:02.have said that before. This is really the issue of peace and
:19:03. > :19:08.justice, peace versus justice, we should not look for justice when the
:19:09. > :19:14.people are negotiating for peace. And I think this is really
:19:15. > :19:20.blackmail. Blackmail that we have seen and faced for a long time.
:19:21. > :19:24.Peace and justice should not be seen as mutually exclusive. And we also
:19:25. > :19:30.need to remember that there cannot be peace, really, without justice.
:19:31. > :19:36.We have to have justice. What kind of justice? Retributive justice,
:19:37. > :19:42.restorative justice? You could argue that restoring justice whereby the
:19:43. > :19:51.order of $1 billion spent in 12 years by the ICC pursuing two
:19:52. > :19:54.successful cases, that could have gone to the people in Sierra Leone
:19:55. > :19:59.who have had their hands cut off, women traumatised by sexual
:20:00. > :20:02.violence, you could even something to rebuild their lives and encourage
:20:03. > :20:07.the kind of system that rule and had where you had a tribal system of
:20:08. > :20:12.justice that is restorative and builds peace at a community level,
:20:13. > :20:18.not just going for the top guys. -- Rwanda. First of all, accountability
:20:19. > :20:26.is important, I believe. People who perpetrate these heinous crimes.
:20:27. > :20:30.Killings, pillaging, rape, all kinds of heinous crimes being committed, I
:20:31. > :20:36.believe those responsible should be held accountable for that. But,
:20:37. > :20:44.having that, I also wanted to draw your attention to the fact that
:20:45. > :20:47.there is before the ICC, victims, not only participating in the
:20:48. > :20:50.proceedings, which is the first time at an international level,
:20:51. > :20:57.participating, but also being able to ask for reparation. It is their
:20:58. > :21:01.right. It is the trust fund for victims that has been set up along
:21:02. > :21:06.with the ICC to ensure that when these victim and... Who have had
:21:07. > :21:13.these crimes committed, who suffer from these crimes, it would go to
:21:14. > :21:18.the court and ask that they get reparation... My point was $1
:21:19. > :21:22.billion has been spent by you so far. That would have gone a long way
:21:23. > :21:27.to addressing the reparation... Also, I don't think that what is
:21:28. > :21:34.being used to address is not flimsy. It is quite important to
:21:35. > :21:39.have justice. If you compare what is being spent on wars and conflicts,
:21:40. > :21:46.on defence, it is... Justice is a fracture. Briefly, a criticism is
:21:47. > :21:51.that your process is slow, apart from being expensive, and there is
:21:52. > :21:53.not sufficient witness protection, there is intimidation going on, you
:21:54. > :22:01.cannot always get investigate the crimes firsthand,
:22:02. > :22:08.Darfur and sedan, you will hardly be welcomed by Bashar al-Assad. --
:22:09. > :22:13.Sudan. You are criticised that you may have an agenda. What is
:22:14. > :22:18.important is the evidence we may bring before the judges. You have to
:22:19. > :22:25.also remember we are investigating very complex cases. Very complex
:22:26. > :22:31.situations. As you know, we are able to investigate when we have
:22:32. > :22:34.cooperation. But where we don't we need to be able to find other ways
:22:35. > :22:39.to investigate. There are several challenges.
:22:40. > :22:43.respect to Darfur, we have investigated without going there.
:22:44. > :22:49.That is because we have in able to find
:22:50. > :22:52.the situation but found themselves outside... So you will continue to
:22:53. > :23:00.strive for prosecutions at the highest level? Does your gender, the
:23:01. > :23:08.fact you are a woman and the man prosecuted here at the ICC, make a
:23:09. > :23:10.difference to the way you operate? -- the main prosecutor. I rarely
:23:11. > :23:38.think about my I put... I put a line under this. To
:23:39. > :23:42.put a lot of emphasis on that. If I were a man or a man was sitting
:23:43. > :23:48.here, he would probably do the same thing is that be but as a woman I
:23:49. > :23:57.think it is very important that I highlight those crimes. -- thing..
:23:58. > :24:01.But I am trying to put out a policy paper on children as well. You know
:24:02. > :24:06.I have already done that on sexual and gender based crime. This is
:24:07. > :24:16.important for me. I believe my gender has a lot to do with that.
:24:17. > :24:19.Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda, thank you for being one of our 100 Women on
:24:20. > :24:37.the BBC. Thank you very much for having me.
:24:38. > :24:41.There's not much sign of the weather taking a breather.