0:00:02 > 0:00:03BBC Four Collections.
0:00:03 > 0:00:07Specially chosen programmes from the BBC archive.
0:00:07 > 0:00:10For this collection, Sir Michael Parkinson has selected BBC
0:00:10 > 0:00:13interviews with influential figures of the 20th century.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15More programmes on this theme
0:00:15 > 0:00:19and other BBC Four collections are available on BBC iPlayer.
0:00:21 > 0:00:23My guest tonight is Brian Clough.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26APPLAUSE
0:00:55 > 0:00:58Brian, it's a delight to have you with us.
0:00:58 > 0:01:00I don't know which of your many quotes to start with
0:01:00 > 0:01:05but it's been a very...very venturesome 12 months for you
0:01:05 > 0:01:09because it's now, what, just over 12 months since you left Derby.
0:01:09 > 0:01:13Would you like to rewrite the last 12 months a bit, completely or what?
0:01:13 > 0:01:15No, it would take me many, many, many years.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18It's been a nightmare on a lot of occasions, obviously.
0:01:18 > 0:01:22After 12 months, to find yourself out of work is not very pleasant.
0:01:22 > 0:01:24Do you think of yourself today as out of work?
0:01:24 > 0:01:27Literally, of course. My profession is managing a football club.
0:01:27 > 0:01:31At the moment, I am not doing that so obviously I'm out of work.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33But you could be managing a football club, couldn't you?
0:01:33 > 0:01:36You've had a couple of offers since Leeds, haven't you?
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Yes, I have had a couple of offers.
0:01:39 > 0:01:41But right at this particular time,
0:01:41 > 0:01:45I'm not in employment regarding football, so I'm out of work.
0:01:45 > 0:01:47What sort of offers have you had so far?
0:01:47 > 0:01:50I've had a job to do a local radio programme.
0:01:50 > 0:01:52- Really? - Aye.
0:01:52 > 0:01:55They told me they had got some great personalities
0:01:55 > 0:01:58involved in the local radio programme down here.
0:01:58 > 0:02:00No, I have had a few offers, here and there.
0:02:00 > 0:02:02I've just realised what you were talking about!
0:02:02 > 0:02:03- Has it clicked? - Yes.
0:02:03 > 0:02:05I thought you were talking about a local programme in Derby.
0:02:05 > 0:02:07You're talking about my local radio.
0:02:07 > 0:02:08- Yes. - In terms of...
0:02:08 > 0:02:09LAUGHTER
0:02:09 > 0:02:10We got there!
0:02:10 > 0:02:13In terms of soccer, what have been the couple of offers
0:02:13 > 0:02:14in soccer so far?
0:02:14 > 0:02:16Just a couple of enquiries,
0:02:16 > 0:02:19whether I was available to go back into football management.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21Not in First Division, they have been in the Second...
0:02:21 > 0:02:24One in the Second and one in the Third.
0:02:24 > 0:02:25One in the Second and one in the Third?
0:02:25 > 0:02:26Yes.
0:02:26 > 0:02:30Would you go back to anything other than the First Division?
0:02:30 > 0:02:34No, it is not a case of going back into, you know, set things
0:02:34 > 0:02:36whether to go back into the First or Second,
0:02:36 > 0:02:39I just wouldn't go back into football right at this present time.
0:02:39 > 0:02:41And not for many, many months to come.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44The last time I was employed, I rather got my fingers burnt.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47I walked around... I was going around like that for weeks!
0:02:47 > 0:02:50I wasn't there very long, at Leeds.
0:02:50 > 0:02:53The sack really hit me right between the eyes.
0:02:53 > 0:02:56How did it happen? How does someone who employed you
0:02:56 > 0:02:5840-odd days earlier give you the sack?
0:02:58 > 0:03:00- Does he say...? - Well, it's very special.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04It's very special, the men with the ability to do that type of thing,
0:03:04 > 0:03:06because 44 days ago, before I got the sack,
0:03:06 > 0:03:10they were saying that they hoped I was there for life.
0:03:10 > 0:03:11And then 44 days ago they're saying,
0:03:11 > 0:03:14"I am not quite sure whether we've made the right decision."
0:03:14 > 0:03:16I said to them, "I am absolutely certain
0:03:16 > 0:03:19"I have made the wrong decision with you bloody lot."
0:03:19 > 0:03:22And it went on those type of lines.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25I see. And did he actually say in the end, Mr Cussins,
0:03:25 > 0:03:27did he actually say, "You're sacked"?
0:03:27 > 0:03:31Oh, no, it's never done as brutal as that.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33That would be far too forthright,
0:03:33 > 0:03:35that would be far too literally to the point.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38I could have coped with that type of thing quite easily.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40In football management you live with the sack,
0:03:40 > 0:03:43you live with the thought of it in the back of your mind.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46If it hits you between the eyes with those very words,
0:03:46 > 0:03:47you don't really mind.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51You've attuned to it and built up a resistance to it over the years.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54It's done a little bit more subtle, it's done with a smile,
0:03:54 > 0:03:56it's done with a...
0:03:56 > 0:04:00You know, you're sitting on a settee perhaps in somebody's house.
0:04:00 > 0:04:02I am assuming this is the way it's done - it is
0:04:02 > 0:04:03the first time it has happened to me.
0:04:03 > 0:04:04And this was how it was done
0:04:04 > 0:04:06- in this particular case? - Yes.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09When did they tell you they were going to give you a golden handshake
0:04:09 > 0:04:12- or whatever? At the same time? - No, they didn't tell me.
0:04:12 > 0:04:17Then it was a case of the conditions that I would leave the club.
0:04:17 > 0:04:22You know, nobody sacks anybody where they just lie down and die.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26Not after 44 days. Nobody does that, David.
0:04:26 > 0:04:30But they gave you this golden payoff afterwards, did they?
0:04:30 > 0:04:34Was that any consolation? That was £98,000, or something.
0:04:34 > 0:04:38It was something going on to that. I paid a few bob tax, obviously.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40LAUGHTER
0:04:40 > 0:04:45It was a consolation at the time but never, never sufficient.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48Money is never sufficient for anything.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51Believe it or believe it not, it's never sufficient for anything.
0:04:51 > 0:04:53Should you have known before you went that it would never work,
0:04:53 > 0:04:56or could you have made it work if you had done it differently?
0:04:56 > 0:04:59I could have made it work having had time.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03Obviously, it's inevitable, I made a few mistakes during the 44 days.
0:05:03 > 0:05:05What sort of mistakes?
0:05:05 > 0:05:07Well, perhaps I didn't give them
0:05:07 > 0:05:10chance enough to get over the guy that was there before me.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12He was there for a long, long time.
0:05:12 > 0:05:14Perhaps I wanted to, you know, get with them
0:05:14 > 0:05:17the same feeling as they'd had with the other guy.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19I am loath to mention him, you know.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22If we can refrain from doing it, we'll do so.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24It's like "the other House", of Commons -
0:05:24 > 0:05:26you hate to mention him, why?
0:05:26 > 0:05:28I hate to mention him because he's a very talented man
0:05:28 > 0:05:30and I don't like him.
0:05:30 > 0:05:31LAUGHTER
0:05:31 > 0:05:34- That's a very... - Don't ask me why.
0:05:34 > 0:05:35That is exactly why.
0:05:35 > 0:05:39Here's a very talented man and his record is unsurpassable,
0:05:39 > 0:05:41but I just don't happen to like him.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44And I don't like the way he goes about football either.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46Football is a game of opinion.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49There are people in your profession perhaps don't like the way you
0:05:49 > 0:05:51- do your bit. - I am sure.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53You know, it makes the game go round.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56Half the country don't like a Labour government.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58It just happens that the other half do.
0:05:58 > 0:06:01Why don't you want me to ask why you don't like him?
0:06:01 > 0:06:03Because I can't tell you, it's impossible.
0:06:03 > 0:06:05We would get closed down, David.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07LAUGHTER
0:06:09 > 0:06:12Do you want to experiment?
0:06:12 > 0:06:15No. No, I am...
0:06:15 > 0:06:19I have got Brighton suing Leeds for breaking a contract.
0:06:19 > 0:06:20Yes.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23That I am supposed to have broken which I did, obviously,
0:06:23 > 0:06:26in certain aspects. But it was between Brighton and Leeds.
0:06:26 > 0:06:28It was rather over my head.
0:06:28 > 0:06:33I felt like one of these people that were sold many, many years ago
0:06:33 > 0:06:36in the market. I was under contract to Brighton.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39Leeds came in and they were trying to settle compensation.
0:06:39 > 0:06:42It didn't quite work out and there's something going on in
0:06:42 > 0:06:44the background at the moment, court wise,
0:06:44 > 0:06:46so it makes it rather difficult.
0:06:46 > 0:06:47Slightly complicated.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50What about... You have had experience in the last year,
0:06:50 > 0:06:52more than a year, but with three different chairmen -
0:06:52 > 0:06:55with Mr Cussins, Mr Bamber and Mr Longson.
0:06:55 > 0:06:59Do chairmen have the same characteristics or were they three
0:06:59 > 0:07:01very different men to deal with?
0:07:01 > 0:07:03A couple have had the same characteristics
0:07:03 > 0:07:05because they were elderly gentlemen.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07Michael Bamber was a little different,
0:07:07 > 0:07:08he was more in my age bracket,
0:07:08 > 0:07:12he was more the one that thought my way or wanted to get on my way.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14You've got to have
0:07:14 > 0:07:17communication between the people you work with.
0:07:17 > 0:07:21I don't know whether you know your gaffers intimately but if
0:07:21 > 0:07:23you don't, you better watch out,
0:07:23 > 0:07:25you've got to know their problems.
0:07:25 > 0:07:31When people get to 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, and you're perhaps not
0:07:31 > 0:07:35quite 40 yet, then you tend to see things differently.
0:07:35 > 0:07:39So the older chairmen, mostly, are the same.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41The younger ones are a little bit better
0:07:41 > 0:07:43and a little bit more on your wavelength.
0:07:43 > 0:07:45But, I mean, you obviously handled it very well with
0:07:45 > 0:07:47Mr Sam Longson for several years at Derby.
0:07:47 > 0:07:49Did you lose your touch towards the end?
0:07:49 > 0:07:53I am certain I lost something in the relationship between him,
0:07:53 > 0:07:55because that was the crux of the whole matter.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58Mr Longson and I worked remarkably well
0:07:58 > 0:08:00but it was a stage we went through.
0:08:00 > 0:08:03He'd not had any success as a chairman of a football club.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06He'd never been chairman until I got there, for a start.
0:08:06 > 0:08:09Then everything boomed, of course.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13He used to say to me, "Whatever we do, just win something for me."
0:08:13 > 0:08:15The gentleman was over 70.
0:08:15 > 0:08:19You're not looking for another 49 years when you get to 70,
0:08:19 > 0:08:21you want something very quickly.
0:08:21 > 0:08:22And, of course, we won something.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Then having won it, outside influences tended to change.
0:08:28 > 0:08:30Having won it, then he wanted to go all nice.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33- Wanted you to go all nice? - Yes.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35And that was impossible?
0:08:35 > 0:08:37I'd wasn't impossible because I would have gone all nice
0:08:37 > 0:08:40if he'd allowed me to mature.
0:08:40 > 0:08:43But I got the bit between my teeth and I wanted to get on with it.
0:08:43 > 0:08:46Could you have held on, could you have held on at Derby?
0:08:46 > 0:08:51Oh, certainly, most certainly. I resigned because I detected a change.
0:08:51 > 0:08:54Another gentleman came on the board and I detected a change.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57They tried to stop the very thing that they'd pushed me
0:08:57 > 0:09:01into originally regarding selling the club, television, newspapers,
0:09:01 > 0:09:02all that type of thing.
0:09:02 > 0:09:07And they tried to channel me and put the dampers down on me, so to speak.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10They restricted me. You know, I just said I wasn't having it.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12I was young and I didn't want to be restricted.
0:09:12 > 0:09:15If they'd have come about five or six years later I am certain
0:09:15 > 0:09:18I would have been at the stage where I would've accepted it.
0:09:18 > 0:09:22Looking back now, do you wish you'd tried to hold on at Derby?
0:09:22 > 0:09:25I have had many, many regrets at leaving Derby.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27But having left and having made a decision,
0:09:27 > 0:09:30I wouldn't for one second tell you I'd made the wrong one.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Would you tell yourself you'd made the wrong one?
0:09:33 > 0:09:37I have asked myself many times, have I made the wrong one?
0:09:37 > 0:09:40And sometimes, depending on mood, I've said, yes, you did.
0:09:40 > 0:09:43And sometimes, most times, I've said no.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45Because, at that time,
0:09:45 > 0:09:49you do believe in doing things that you believe you're right in doing.
0:09:49 > 0:09:53When you get to about 45, 50... How old are you, David?
0:09:53 > 0:09:55- Erm...35! - Good lad.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57You've got another ten years to go.
0:09:57 > 0:09:58- Before this thing...? - Yes.
0:09:58 > 0:10:00And then you might feel, you know,
0:10:00 > 0:10:05that you perhaps have to calm down a little bit and do everything.
0:10:05 > 0:10:07The thing that surprised me is I said to you, I think
0:10:07 > 0:10:10we were talking in the canteen at London Weekend,
0:10:10 > 0:10:12was how quickly you leapt into another job at a Third Division
0:10:12 > 0:10:15team at Brighton, when, as it turned out a few weeks later,
0:10:15 > 0:10:18Manchester City was available and I don't know who else was available.
0:10:18 > 0:10:19Was that a mistake?
0:10:19 > 0:10:21It was a mistake perhaps jumping in so quickly,
0:10:21 > 0:10:23but I daren't tell you the very,
0:10:23 > 0:10:26very words I said to you at that particular question,
0:10:26 > 0:10:29but I couldn't bear sitting out of work,
0:10:29 > 0:10:32being unemployed and sitting on my backside.
0:10:32 > 0:10:35I used a different word to you, in actual fact.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37- For sitting? - Yes.
0:10:37 > 0:10:41I couldn't bear the thought of it, having been involved so long.
0:10:41 > 0:10:42This word "unemployed", you know,
0:10:42 > 0:10:46since a shadow and a thing down your spine of great fear.
0:10:46 > 0:10:50Was that why you did the nightclub stint this last week?
0:10:50 > 0:10:53Oh, no, I was kind of led into that.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56It started off with a testimonial game for a lad at Stoke
0:10:56 > 0:10:59in the first nightclub.
0:10:59 > 0:11:02Somebody came along and said, "Would you like to do another one?"
0:11:02 > 0:11:05I thought, well, to broaden one's horizons,
0:11:05 > 0:11:08to get on with something, it wouldn't do any harm at all.
0:11:08 > 0:11:10Because my job is dealing with people.
0:11:10 > 0:11:14You meet a hell of a lot of different people in a nightclub.
0:11:14 > 0:11:16What about dealing with people?
0:11:16 > 0:11:18What about the people who work for you?
0:11:18 > 0:11:20We've talked about the people dealing with the chairmen.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23What about dealing with people, what about dealing with the people
0:11:23 > 0:11:25you obviously motivated so well at Derby?
0:11:25 > 0:11:27Why did you do that so well?
0:11:27 > 0:11:29Erm...
0:11:29 > 0:11:30If I did it well, thank you,
0:11:30 > 0:11:34I did it because I placed implicit trust in them.
0:11:34 > 0:11:38I don't believe in hiding things from anybody. Get it all out.
0:11:38 > 0:11:40If we are working in a profession then there's no point
0:11:40 > 0:11:42in having one hand behind your back.
0:11:42 > 0:11:46Get it all out, it is a very, very difficult thing, on occasion, to do.
0:11:46 > 0:11:49If you give them your problems and you in turn understand theirs,
0:11:49 > 0:11:52and share everything with them, then you can't go wrong.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54It's the only way to weld. I believe in talking.
0:11:54 > 0:11:56I don't believe in...
0:11:56 > 0:11:59Obviously I believe in talking, that's why I am here!
0:11:59 > 0:12:02But I believe in communicating, I don't believe in shooting guns
0:12:02 > 0:12:04and dropping bombs and that type of thing.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06I just believe in talking to people.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09You'd be amazed how many people want to talk and never get a chance.
0:12:09 > 0:12:12When you're talking to players, do you give them
0:12:12 > 0:12:13bad news on their own,
0:12:13 > 0:12:16- good news in a group, or what? - Oh, no.
0:12:16 > 0:12:17No, I believed in...
0:12:17 > 0:12:20If we were a team of 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, depending on the squad,
0:12:20 > 0:12:24I believed in dishing out anything collectively.
0:12:24 > 0:12:29If there was any rollickings to go, I don't believe in hiding behind doors.
0:12:29 > 0:12:31I believe in, as I say, getting it out in the open.
0:12:31 > 0:12:33The same went for good news also.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37It welds something, it stops any inhibitions, I believe.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41Or it helps to stop inhibitions. So we get it all out.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44I used to say that when we left the dressing room,
0:12:44 > 0:12:46or when we left the football pitch, or when we left anything,
0:12:46 > 0:12:50get out of that front door and have nothing on the back of your mind.
0:12:50 > 0:12:55No worries, nobody weighting down on your shoulders,
0:12:55 > 0:12:57no things you wished you should have said.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00Just walk out, be tall, get out,
0:13:00 > 0:13:02you've done a day's work irrespective of how well you have
0:13:02 > 0:13:06done it, go home free and enjoy your wife and your children
0:13:06 > 0:13:07and your home life and that type of thing.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10Then come back and we will get at it again.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12What about half-times in football matches?
0:13:12 > 0:13:14Could you change a team's morale?
0:13:14 > 0:13:16Is there a way of doing that, to go in when they're down and lift them?
0:13:16 > 0:13:19There's a way of doing it if they believe in you.
0:13:19 > 0:13:23And there's a way of motivating people and getting things across.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26There's a way of either lifting them or damping them down depending
0:13:26 > 0:13:30on the individual and depending on the character of the side.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32There's a way of doing that, obviously.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34If things aren't going well and you tell them
0:13:34 > 0:13:37things aren't going well, too pronounced, then you have problems
0:13:37 > 0:13:40because you'll drive them further into the ground.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42It is essential to praise people.
0:13:42 > 0:13:46Everybody puts out stick and you have to balance it.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49You have to balance criticism with praise.
0:13:49 > 0:13:52I've got a terrible problem at the moment
0:13:52 > 0:13:55because I've got a couple of kids, I have three children, and obviously
0:13:55 > 0:13:58I want them to do well and I want them to grow up beautiful.
0:13:58 > 0:14:02My wife pours love and intelligence and everything into them
0:14:02 > 0:14:04and I tend to go and say, "Come on, we've got to do this,
0:14:04 > 0:14:06"this and this and this." I think,
0:14:06 > 0:14:10I've forgotten the last time I said what beautiful children they were.
0:14:10 > 0:14:12And you've got to find the balance.
0:14:12 > 0:14:13Would you be upset...?
0:14:13 > 0:14:16Is it two boys and a girl or two girls and a boy?
0:14:16 > 0:14:18Two boys and a girl.
0:14:18 > 0:14:22Would you like the boys to end up in football or would that worry you?
0:14:22 > 0:14:25It would worry my wife, she's not too keen
0:14:25 > 0:14:29because she's only met the people who run football,
0:14:29 > 0:14:31she's not particularly interested in sport at all.
0:14:31 > 0:14:34She hasn't fallen head over heels with that type of thing,
0:14:34 > 0:14:38the people who run it. She's not basically interested in it.
0:14:38 > 0:14:40I wouldn't mind if they want to go into football
0:14:40 > 0:14:43but I wouldn't either force them or otherwise.
0:14:43 > 0:14:45It's a great thing to have a choice.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47I would love them to be good enough, to turn round and say,
0:14:47 > 0:14:50"Yes, I want to play football." "No, I don't want to play football."
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Or they might want to be a fitter or a plumber. Just a choice.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56It's the best thing in life to have a choice.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59It's a very short life, though, isn't it, a footballer's?
0:14:59 > 0:15:02I remember Ralph Brand saying to me when I was up at Darlington,
0:15:02 > 0:15:04near your old stomping ground.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08He was saying he thought that because it's such a short life,
0:15:08 > 0:15:11for many footballers everything after it is anticlimax.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14He was saying, "I think it would be almost kinder
0:15:14 > 0:15:16"if at the end of their playing lives,
0:15:16 > 0:15:18"footballers were taken out and shot."
0:15:18 > 0:15:21Yes, this is perfectly true. A lot of people do think this.
0:15:21 > 0:15:24But this is where we have to educate ourselves - that there is
0:15:24 > 0:15:26a life outside of football.
0:15:26 > 0:15:30We do tend to be centred round it and we forget everybody else.
0:15:30 > 0:15:35God gave us a bit of ability to kick a ball about on a football field
0:15:35 > 0:15:37and be tend to forget everything else.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39Suddenly at 33, 34,
0:15:39 > 0:15:42we're out of it and we don't quite know how to fill the gaps.
0:15:42 > 0:15:45This is lack of education. It's got to be.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48I don't mean two and two and four and that type of thing,
0:15:48 > 0:15:53but it's lack of broadening the mind and all that type of thing.
0:15:53 > 0:15:57We have to work on this. You know, Steve Powell at Derby.
0:15:57 > 0:16:01I spoke to his headmaster for hours and hours
0:16:01 > 0:16:04and his headmaster wanted him to go to university.
0:16:04 > 0:16:08He had got his O-levels at 15, his A-levels before he signed
0:16:08 > 0:16:12at Derby for 16 and he was definitely university material.
0:16:12 > 0:16:15I happened to believe he could make a career in football
0:16:15 > 0:16:16and a highly successful one.
0:16:16 > 0:16:19But there's no reason why he couldn't combine both.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23And having got his O-levels and his A-levels, then play football,
0:16:23 > 0:16:26and everybody wants to play football, you know,
0:16:26 > 0:16:29then if he wanted to go on to university, having made
0:16:29 > 0:16:32a fortune playing football, then the world is open to him.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34And he can have the best of both worlds.
0:16:34 > 0:16:37What about when your playing career came to an end?
0:16:37 > 0:16:39You were on the top of a wave,
0:16:39 > 0:16:42you'd got the 250 goals in record time, and all that sort of thing.
0:16:42 > 0:16:44What was it, Boxing Day '62
0:16:44 > 0:16:46- when you were injured? - Yes.
0:16:46 > 0:16:48You tried to make a comeback or two after that but...
0:16:48 > 0:16:51- 18 months. - You were done for after 18 months.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55Did you know the moment that injury happened that it was really serious?
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Or was it a dawning realisation? Or what?
0:16:58 > 0:17:00I knew it was serious, obviously,
0:17:00 > 0:17:02because somebody stuck me in hospital.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05I'd not only done my knee, I happened to bang my head.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07A lot of people put it down
0:17:07 > 0:17:09to the way I have behaved in the last ten years!
0:17:09 > 0:17:11It was a hard ground.
0:17:11 > 0:17:14I was stuck in hospital and that type of thing
0:17:14 > 0:17:17and came round a few days later.
0:17:17 > 0:17:22But you never believe at 27 you're finished at anything, do you?
0:17:22 > 0:17:23Especially if you are an athlete.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26I'd been fortunate enough never to be injured before.
0:17:26 > 0:17:31I was stuck in a hospital bed and specialists and plaster
0:17:31 > 0:17:33and all those normal type of things.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35But you never believe you're finished.
0:17:35 > 0:17:40I trained for 18 months, I managed to get back onto a football field.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44It was just that I didn't get back as well as I left it.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47There was insurance money involved and all that type of thing.
0:17:47 > 0:17:52Big business in those days, it was only an amount of £40,000,
0:17:52 > 0:17:54but in those days it was big.
0:17:54 > 0:17:58There's always outside influences pushing and pushing.
0:17:58 > 0:18:01I believe I could have played in the minor leagues quite easily.
0:18:01 > 0:18:04I have trained now since I left...
0:18:04 > 0:18:07Since I was a player, I've trained four or five days a week,
0:18:07 > 0:18:08I've never had any trouble.
0:18:08 > 0:18:12But there was a gap then in your life, you were talking about gaps.
0:18:12 > 0:18:15How long did it take you to realise what you were going to do next?
0:18:15 > 0:18:17Well, I trained for 18 months.
0:18:17 > 0:18:20I had a period, it was only about six or seven or eight months,
0:18:20 > 0:18:24where I trained the youth side at Sunderland.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27Then I was offered a job at Hartlepool.
0:18:27 > 0:18:28I had a testimonial match,
0:18:28 > 0:18:32I got myself a few bob so that gave me a bit of security.
0:18:32 > 0:18:35We're all looking for security. Everybody.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38This is one of the troubles in life at the moment,
0:18:38 > 0:18:41everybody wants security and they're not getting it.
0:18:41 > 0:18:43Have you got a feeling of security today?
0:18:43 > 0:18:47I've got a feeling of security regarding a few bob, obviously.
0:18:47 > 0:18:52I've got a few bob more than I had 10, 15 years ago.
0:18:52 > 0:18:54But I haven't got total security
0:18:54 > 0:18:57because total security means to be involved in something you
0:18:57 > 0:19:01implicitly believe in and doing what you want to do.
0:19:01 > 0:19:04Security is not riding around in a Rolls-Royce having enough cash
0:19:04 > 0:19:09to live for the rest of your life. Security has got to start here.
0:19:09 > 0:19:12The money in the bank, sometimes you forget about that.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16What's the dreadful thing about being - you said it's terrifying -
0:19:16 > 0:19:19out of a job, unemployed, you were saying you are the moment?
0:19:19 > 0:19:21Well, the rejection, for a start, was terrifying.
0:19:21 > 0:19:24Having been sacked, the rejection. That's hard to bear.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27Irrespective of how much you tell them they're wrong
0:19:27 > 0:19:31and you tell yourself they're wrong, it's still hard to bear.
0:19:33 > 0:19:38The feeling of being out of the one thing that you feel you can do best.
0:19:38 > 0:19:39That's a terrible fear.
0:19:39 > 0:19:42And being a reasonably young man and know that you want to work
0:19:42 > 0:19:47till you are 60 or 65 or 55, when our pensions start, whenever it is.
0:19:47 > 0:19:50And, erm...that's a feeling.
0:19:50 > 0:19:53And the fear is that you won't get back, is it?
0:19:53 > 0:19:57No, not only that, because I'm thick enough to believe I'll get back.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59There was that marvellous quote...
0:19:59 > 0:20:01Either thick enough or talented enough, one of the two.
0:20:01 > 0:20:05You said, this was in '72, marvellous quote about, "I've got
0:20:05 > 0:20:08"a lifetime to go, I'm on the threshold of a career as a manager.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11"I got cheated as a player, I don't want to be cheated as a manager."
0:20:11 > 0:20:13Is there a danger you could be cheated as a manager?
0:20:13 > 0:20:15There is always a danger of that, yes.
0:20:15 > 0:20:18The career as a player was cut short and there's always a danger,
0:20:18 > 0:20:20depending on the people you work with
0:20:20 > 0:20:24and depending on your ability to cope and to accept
0:20:24 > 0:20:27and that type of thing, that your managerial career can be cut short.
0:20:27 > 0:20:30I'm not saying I've got talent, although if you press me
0:20:30 > 0:20:33- I will say I have it! - Do you have talent?
0:20:33 > 0:20:35I've got talent as a football manager, yes.
0:20:35 > 0:20:38And I do believe that we're going through a period,
0:20:38 > 0:20:41irrespective of what career you're talking about,
0:20:41 > 0:20:44and any particular career we've got in the audience,
0:20:44 > 0:20:46everybody is short of talent, you know.
0:20:46 > 0:20:48I don't mean everybody as an individual,
0:20:48 > 0:20:51I mean every particular concern is short of talent.
0:20:51 > 0:20:53It's priority at the moment, talent.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56So anybody that's got it, you know,
0:20:56 > 0:20:59we can hold our head above water and get on with our job.
0:20:59 > 0:21:03How long do you think you would like it to be before you're
0:21:03 > 0:21:05back in the job you really like doing?
0:21:05 > 0:21:08I would like it to be sufficiently to put my house in order
0:21:08 > 0:21:11because when you're involved sufficiently in a career as I was,
0:21:11 > 0:21:13you miss out on a million things.
0:21:13 > 0:21:17You miss out on your home life, you go through...
0:21:17 > 0:21:21I read a quote once by Bill Nicholson, and he also told me
0:21:21 > 0:21:25it personally, that when his daughter was getting married in a church,
0:21:25 > 0:21:28he suddenly stood there in the church and thought,
0:21:28 > 0:21:34"Where have the 18 or 19 or 20 years gone that she was a little baby?"
0:21:34 > 0:21:38And he'd missed out completely on that particular aspect of his life.
0:21:38 > 0:21:43I will never, ever, ever allow that to happen to me.
0:21:43 > 0:21:46Because that is total failure as a human being,
0:21:46 > 0:21:49not as a football manager.
0:21:49 > 0:21:50But at the same time,
0:21:50 > 0:21:53one of the things that must sort of add to your schizophrenia
0:21:53 > 0:21:56at the moment is the guy whose name you don't like to mention,
0:21:56 > 0:21:58who is now England's team manager.
0:21:58 > 0:21:59As you see him operating
0:21:59 > 0:22:02and you disagree with a lot of his tactics over the years,
0:22:02 > 0:22:05do you think about that England job, "That could have been mine"?
0:22:05 > 0:22:08I think about it. I'm not sure whether it could have been mine,
0:22:08 > 0:22:11it was a possibility, obviously, because everybody's got a chance.
0:22:11 > 0:22:13I think about...
0:22:13 > 0:22:17I am not one to envy people
0:22:17 > 0:22:20because I've always had reasonable things going for me.
0:22:20 > 0:22:24People who envy things, they envy the things they can't get.
0:22:24 > 0:22:27I have never felt envy in my life, I have been very fortunate there.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30I haven't been jealous of many people, I'm very fortunate there,
0:22:30 > 0:22:34but I do feel envy when this particular man has got this
0:22:34 > 0:22:38particular job. And this is the thing I've got to dismiss from my mind.
0:22:38 > 0:22:42Very important. Envy crucifies you. Jealousy? Blow me.
0:22:42 > 0:22:45- Really destructive emotion? - Oh, it is murder.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48If you spend any time of your day being jealous...
0:22:48 > 0:22:51You know, the guys that give you stick, or have given you stick,
0:22:51 > 0:22:54or will continue to give you stick, it's 90% jealousy.
0:22:54 > 0:22:56And they must be right bums.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00Jealousy certainly is very, very destructive.
0:23:00 > 0:23:02Oh, it's terrible. It must be terrible.
0:23:02 > 0:23:05Did you think he did a good job over the Czechoslovakia match?
0:23:05 > 0:23:08I thought he did a superb job. Nobody could have done any better,
0:23:08 > 0:23:11to win 3-0 and to fill Wembley was absolutely magic on his behalf.
0:23:11 > 0:23:14On that particular one,
0:23:14 > 0:23:15- he did very well. - Yes.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18How many football matches have you seen since you left Leeds?
0:23:18 > 0:23:20One.
0:23:20 > 0:23:21- Only one? - One.
0:23:21 > 0:23:25I went to Amsterdam, I wanted to get away for a few days,
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I went to Amsterdam with Stoke City when they played Ajax.
0:23:28 > 0:23:30I had four beautiful days in Amsterdam.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33The weather was gorgeous, the sights were just as...
0:23:33 > 0:23:34How long is it since you've been there?
0:23:34 > 0:23:36A couple of years, it is beautiful.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38It is just the same. Absolutely gorgeous.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Everything about the place is magic.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42But you haven't seen a single match...?
0:23:42 > 0:23:44- In England? No. - Why is that?
0:23:44 > 0:23:47I just can't bring myself to go along. You know, I just...
0:23:47 > 0:23:50I want a period out of it, I want to cool down, I want to sit back
0:23:50 > 0:23:52and look at it.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54You'd find it painful to go to a match today?
0:23:54 > 0:23:57I would find it very painful at the moment, yes.
0:23:57 > 0:24:00I was going to ask you, I was interested, I remember you made
0:24:00 > 0:24:04that £400,000 bid for Keith Weller of Leicester when you were at Derby.
0:24:04 > 0:24:07I wondered if you thought there are any players in English football
0:24:07 > 0:24:09who are worth more than that today?
0:24:11 > 0:24:14I'm not sure. That price depended...
0:24:14 > 0:24:18That price was purely made up of what he was going to do to Derby County.
0:24:18 > 0:24:22You know, it could be argued Keith wasn't worth that amount of money.
0:24:22 > 0:24:25But at that particular time, he was worth it to Derby.
0:24:25 > 0:24:29So I would have to be involved with a side to see how much
0:24:29 > 0:24:31I would go overboard regarding a particular player
0:24:31 > 0:24:34depending on the needs of the particular team.
0:24:34 > 0:24:39I was talking to some of the audience before we started.
0:24:39 > 0:24:43Some of them are Tottenham supporters and some are something something.
0:24:43 > 0:24:46I'd spend a million quid trying to buy a player for Tottenham
0:24:46 > 0:24:48or something like that because they're having a bad time.
0:24:48 > 0:24:49LAUGHTER
0:24:49 > 0:24:52If I thought it would get Tottenham from there to there,
0:24:52 > 0:24:54because that is all I'm working for, if I was manager of Tottenham,
0:24:54 > 0:24:56to get them from there to there.
0:24:56 > 0:24:59If we had a million quid and if I had to helped to make the million,
0:24:59 > 0:25:02as I did at Derby, then obviously I would feel
0:25:02 > 0:25:05justified in spending it and backing my own judgment.
0:25:05 > 0:25:08Why are all the London clubs doing so badly at the moment?
0:25:08 > 0:25:09Because basically they have bad sides.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11LAUGHTER
0:25:11 > 0:25:12That could have a lot to do with it.
0:25:12 > 0:25:14You know, that's not a flippant answer, honestly.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16They are just bad sides.
0:25:16 > 0:25:19And I don't think... Living down in London, I think
0:25:19 > 0:25:23the managers have got problems managing football clubs down here.
0:25:23 > 0:25:28I think the outside entertainment is a bit of a problem
0:25:28 > 0:25:30to training athletes.
0:25:30 > 0:25:32I think there are too many outside, you know,
0:25:32 > 0:25:35attractions to get them away from football.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38How many managers in the game today have your total respect?
0:25:38 > 0:25:40Erm...
0:25:40 > 0:25:42Well, the guy that had my total respect, obviously,
0:25:42 > 0:25:45finished a few months ago at Liverpool.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48He's a one-off, there will never be another one like Shanks.
0:25:48 > 0:25:51Never at all. He absolutely lives the game, or did live it.
0:25:51 > 0:25:53I am sure he's doing it now.
0:25:53 > 0:25:57He was totally honest, he believed implicitly in what he was doing.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00There was never, ever a doubt when you either talked to him,
0:26:00 > 0:26:04met him or anything. He was above board. He was above board.
0:26:04 > 0:26:05He was one off.
0:26:05 > 0:26:09The last guy the was one off, he was the one that runs us all, you know.
0:26:09 > 0:26:11There are other people you admire too, aren't there?
0:26:11 > 0:26:14A lot of people admire you and write you letters and ask you questions.
0:26:14 > 0:26:16There's a lot of people I admire.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19- In football or in...? - Sport or wider.
0:26:19 > 0:26:21I admire people who entertain.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24You know, I think to laugh, if Eric Morecambe makes me laugh,
0:26:24 > 0:26:26I think that is very, very special.
0:26:26 > 0:26:30I think if Dick Emery puts a pair of high heels on and comes out
0:26:30 > 0:26:33dressed like a bird, that is very special if it makes me laugh.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36I don't think we laugh enough.
0:26:36 > 0:26:39I certainly don't laugh enough so when it comes across, it is
0:26:39 > 0:26:41very, very special.
0:26:41 > 0:26:43Who is the sportsman or the politician you admire?
0:26:43 > 0:26:45What sort of people do you admire in those areas?
0:26:45 > 0:26:46The politicians?
0:26:46 > 0:26:50Well, we're off politicians a bit at the moment. I personally am.
0:26:50 > 0:26:52I was stars in the sky about politicians, I thought
0:26:52 > 0:26:56they were going to put it all right. But they keep failing, you know.
0:26:56 > 0:27:00It is the remarkable part about it, I canvass for my local MP,
0:27:00 > 0:27:05who I happen to believe is a very sincere man and a good MP.
0:27:05 > 0:27:11But I look at politicians broadly and they come back to us having made such
0:27:11 > 0:27:15a mess of it and say, "Put us back there again." I find this incredible.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17I find it an aspect of political life where
0:27:17 > 0:27:22they have the gall to knock on your door and tell us that we are in
0:27:22 > 0:27:24trouble, problems, we are
0:27:24 > 0:27:28all going to have to pull our belts in and I have paid them,
0:27:28 > 0:27:31or I have contributed for them to work to put it right.
0:27:31 > 0:27:34We pay their wages, and they make such a mess of it
0:27:34 > 0:27:37and then they come back and ask us to do it all again.
0:27:37 > 0:27:39You've either got to be, you know,
0:27:39 > 0:27:41as thick as hell to do that or a very talented man.
0:27:41 > 0:27:43LAUGHTER
0:27:43 > 0:27:45They keep doing it.
0:27:45 > 0:27:49So there are not many politicians who win your instant respect?
0:27:49 > 0:27:51No, Phillip Whitehead is my local MP and I have got
0:27:51 > 0:27:54a lot of time for Phillip, and I have done a lot of work for him.
0:27:54 > 0:27:57I am a socialist through and through.
0:27:57 > 0:28:00I went along and showed my face for Michael Foot.
0:28:00 > 0:28:05He didn't really need me to show my face but I just wanted to say hello.
0:28:05 > 0:28:09I met him a few times and I like to listen to him. I like to believe.
0:28:09 > 0:28:10I have got to believe.
0:28:10 > 0:28:14I have got to believe in what we are doing is something good.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17Because if I don't believe that, it destroys me.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20I am so sensitive to politicians and so sensitive to being
0:28:20 > 0:28:25a socialist that every time they make a mess of it, I blush.
0:28:25 > 0:28:27And there I am...
0:28:27 > 0:28:31It's a rather touching thought, you blushing.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33Well, it does happen. It does happen.
0:28:33 > 0:28:36And I feel for people who make messes of things and if they do it,
0:28:36 > 0:28:38I blush for them. I feel for Ted Heath.
0:28:38 > 0:28:42I am not saying he made a balls of it, I just feel for him.
0:28:42 > 0:28:45He's got a lot of pressure on him at the moment.
0:28:45 > 0:28:48He's standing there and he's taking it all and I feel for him
0:28:48 > 0:28:50and I admire him.
0:28:50 > 0:28:53Do you think, out of all of this year of travail which you have
0:28:53 > 0:28:56had one way or another, that what you say about Ted Heath there is
0:28:56 > 0:28:58more sympathetic than it might have been a year ago?
0:28:58 > 0:29:01What you say about Sir Alf Ramsey these days is more sympathetic
0:29:01 > 0:29:02than what you said a few months ago?
0:29:02 > 0:29:05Do you think you've matured a bit in the last year,
0:29:05 > 0:29:07become more sympathetic to people who get a rough deal
0:29:07 > 0:29:09because you feel you have had one?
0:29:09 > 0:29:10Well, it is instinct.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13The answer to that is, I think, yes.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17I think it's instinct on everybody's part that if they're having
0:29:17 > 0:29:21a rough time, or have things going badly for them, they switch camps.
0:29:21 > 0:29:25I got a lot of letters from people, when I left Leeds I got hundreds and
0:29:25 > 0:29:29hundreds of letters saying I'd had a raw deal, when I was sacked at Leeds.
0:29:29 > 0:29:33Half of the letters, I'm certain, were saying before I was sacked,
0:29:33 > 0:29:36"I hope he gets the sack." You know, that type of thing.
0:29:36 > 0:29:40It's an instinct, it's characteristic of us in this country.
0:29:40 > 0:29:42- But it's a good one. - But you've gone the other way,
0:29:42 > 0:29:45you are now more sympathetic to people who get a bad deal?
0:29:45 > 0:29:47Well, I'm sympathetic completely to them.
0:29:47 > 0:29:50I'm sympathetic for the people who have got their back against the wall
0:29:50 > 0:29:52because this is when it's tight.
0:29:52 > 0:29:53This is when they want your support.
0:29:53 > 0:29:55They don't want it when they're on top.
0:29:55 > 0:29:58Alf didn't want my support when he was manager of England.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00He was picking his side, he had the best job in the country.
0:30:00 > 0:30:01The top job in football.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05The one we all would love to have. He didn't want my sympathy.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08He wants it now when he's out of work.
0:30:08 > 0:30:09One last question -
0:30:09 > 0:30:11you're a natural for this question, really -
0:30:11 > 0:30:13which is, when you die and someone writes your epitaph,
0:30:13 > 0:30:15what would you like them to say about you?
0:30:15 > 0:30:19Oh, no. No, I've never, ever given it a thought, about dying.
0:30:19 > 0:30:21It frightens me.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24It frightens me to think that I'll ever get to the stage where
0:30:24 > 0:30:25I will contemplate dying.
0:30:26 > 0:30:31You know, they tell me it happens to us all but I've not quite
0:30:31 > 0:30:34got into that bracket yet where I'm thinking about it.
0:30:34 > 0:30:37When they write it... I'll tell you what, I don't want anybody to write
0:30:37 > 0:30:41anything, I just want a couple of people round there when I die.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44Great answer. Good night.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46APPLAUSE